NationStates Jolt Archive

Having a transgender relative has made me re-think all I thought I knew about gender and sex. I still have trouble understanding all of it because I was always taught (apparently erroneously) that what is in your pants defines what you are.

I found this article and was wondering what people on here thought about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6994580/

But Vilain’s research suggests there are factors at work that can’t be measured. The scientific dogma used to be that hormones alone could “masculinize” the brain, he said. But he identified 54 genes that work differently in the brains of male and female mouse embryos just 10 days after conception — before sex hormones are ever produced.

Maybe things aren't as simple as we were led to believe.

What do you think?

I have a transgendered relative, and if you'll pardon the pun, it took a lot of balls to go through with the change. That is a dedication to self that I have to respect.

The way I was taught is that gender is what you consider yourself, sex is what your biology says. However, even this ignores XX males, XXY males, XY females, and other sex chromosome issues. I tend to think of sex as the physical, while gender is the social, none the less.

Having a transgender relative has made me re-think all I thought I knew about gender and sex. I still have trouble understanding all of it because I was always taught (apparently erroneously) that what is in your pants defines what you are.

I found this article and was wondering what people on here thought about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6994580/



Maybe things aren't as simple as we were led to believe.

What do you think?

I think things are very simple, just not the kind of simple we were led to believe.

I think things are very simple, just not the kind of simple we were led to believe.

I get that feeling all the time, but more about the actual nature of the universe, quantum physics, and so on.

If the brain were simple enough for us to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it.

Well, I think a distinction needs to be made between Socially and/or Emotionally "Female" and what your genitals represent...

Being that at present, Transwomen, for example, cant have Periods or really get the secondary sex characteristics, due to lack of medical technology, They cant be considered, in the Biological standpoint "female"...


However, in a Social context, such as Driver's license, Job Application, etc...They should be considered the Gender that they at present belong to...


However, thats just IMO, and even that is not set in stone, Admittedly the issue is really bigger than me...

I think the ideas on sex and gender are vastly understudied and oversimplied in their presentation. I see sex as your physical self as either male or female, however it's when I come to gender that things become very blurry. If it was as simple as what you felt most comfortable as, then there would not be lipstick lesbians or transgendered who still acted in similar ways as to their original sex. It is more of your socio-emotional connection to society and yourself, and that is something that you have to experience on a personal level where logic and rational have no boundaries.

I prefer to avoid the problem when possible. Does that mean I'll not be friends with a person that's transgendered? No, I'll not alienate them. However, as a human male with behavioral traits that minimize the necessity of artificial assistance in procreation, I seek out biological females of my species in the biologically imperative mating process. If I should one day date a woman, and find out that she was once a man, I won't ostracize her, but I will probably break off anything more than a platonic relationship.

I'm FOR sex and AGAINST gender. Join the Revolution!

(I'm also feeling silly at the moment.)

I'm FOR sex and AGAINST gender. Join the Revolution!

(I'm also feeling silly at the moment.)

Raise the Banners of Slaanesh!!! She Who Thirsts, the Prince of Chaos!!

http://www.puolenkuunpelit.com/kauppa/images/gw_daemonettes.gif


(I am also feeling silly at the moment.)

Raise the Banners of Slaanesh!!! She Who Thirsts, the Prince of Chaos!!

http://www.puolenkuunpelit.com/kauppa/images/gw_daemonettes.gif

Yeah, looking at those chicks, I think that I'll not invite them over to my all night blow out. I don't want them touching anything, especially the upholstery.

I don't think we could possibly understand the confusion and complexity of what goes through the minds of transgender individuals

I don't think we could possibly understand the confusion and complexity of what goes through the minds of transgender individuals

It's pretty much;

"Where can I get some lunch?"

"Where can I park my car?"

"Who can I have sex with?"

Same as you or me.

It's pretty much;

"Where can I get some lunch?"

"Where can I park my car?"

"Who can I have sex with?"

Same as you or me.

Pretty much.

Except perhaps for the "Am I going to get harassed/assaulted/murdered today because I dress/look/am 'different'?"

EDIT: I know all about the transgendered 'cuz I saw Law & Order SVU's recent "Transitions" episode ;)

Pretty much.

Except perhaps for the "Am I going to get harassed/assaulted/murdered today because I dress/look/am 'different'?"

I would hope that isn't too common, but you're right. It probably exists. Probably a lot more of, "Why the fuck does the asshole from the Mail room have to treat me like a leper just because I wear a dress?"

Meanwhile, the asshole from the mail room is probably thinking, "God, that's gross. I bet he sucks a mean cock though. ...Maybe I should see if he'll blow me in the men's room....Gah! No, that's gross. I'm not gay! But if there's nobody around, who will know?"

By the way, the above is actually a transcript of a Republican Senator's thoughts. *nod*

Meanwhile, the asshole from the mail room is probably thinking, "God, that's gross. I bet he sucks a mean cock though. ...Maybe I should see if he'll blow me in the men's room....Gah! No, that's gross. I'm not gay! But if there's nobody around, who will know?"

By the way, the above is actually a transcript of a Republican Senator's thoughts. *nod*

The old 'if a man is sucked off in the woods and there's no one round to see it, does that make him gay' philosophical question.

There's a great book, Middlesex, by Jeffery Eugenides, based on a controversial, and ultimately discredited, study on the issue.

I don't think it's possible to condition someone into gender.

This is probably going to be a minority opinion(and an unpopular one, to boot)but I think people over-analyze the whole thing. Check your pants. If you have a pole, you're a guy. If you have a hole, you're a chick. Just because you want to have sex with other guys or want to wear dresses, or want to have sex with other chicks it doesn't mean you're not a guy, or a chick, it just means you have different tastes. If I knew anything about the brain, I'd probably maunder on about how people's brains are wired, but I don't, so I'll spare y'all that.

This is probably going to be a minority opinion(and an unpopular one, to boot)but I think people over-analyze the whole thing. Check your pants. If you have a pole, you're a guy. If you have a hole, you're a chick. Just because you want to have sex with other guys or want to wear dresses, or want to have sex with other chicks it doesn't mean you're not a guy, or a chick, it just means you have different tastes.

Ah, but the question was at least in part about people who want to REPLACE their pole with a hole or visa versa.

Gender is a social construct.

So, someone aruged to me once, if you claim to "transgender" you just legitimize and reinforce bullshit social constructs. Or maybe you use an easy, well known term to sum up a deep, complex, sometimes conflicted personality. Just as with race, there is greater diversity and variation within groups than between them.

As for changing your reproductive organs, I dunno, it seems to me like that's a lot bigger than just thinking you are masculine, despite being a girl. But, like, I can't even imagine ever dying my hair.

*shrugs* The succinct answer is I don't really know.

Ah, but the question was at least in part about people who want to REPLACE their pole with a hole or visa versa.

To the extent that I think about that at all, I kind of figure people should stick with what they're born with. But it's not exactly an issue I'm going to call for the barricades to be raised, or lose any sleep over, one way or another.

I don't think we could possibly understand the confusion and complexity of what goes through the minds of transgender individuals

^^This.
I've got a transgendered friend, and the problems she had to go through to just figure out for herself who and what exactly she is were massive. The last thing she needed was a general public opinion ostracizing her, but she still got that in spades. :(

This is probably going to be a minority opinion(and an unpopular one, to boot)but I think people over-analyze the whole thing. Check your pants. If you have a pole, you're a guy. If you have a hole, you're a chick. Just because you want to have sex with other guys or want to wear dresses, or want to have sex with other chicks it doesn't mean you're not a guy, or a chick, it just means you have different tastes. If I knew anything about the brain, I'd probably maunder on about how people's brains are wired, but I don't, so I'll spare y'all that.

Informed opinion indeed.
The earth is still flat for you, cause that's what it looks like when you look at it, right?

To the extent that I think about that at all, I kind of figure people should stick with what they're born with.

By that logic you shouldn't cut your hair, or wear a prosthetic arm if (due to a birth defect) you were born without one.

By that logic you shouldn't cut your hair, or wear a prosthetic arm if (due to a birth defect) you were born without one.

And remember to tear out all your teeth, the moment they start growing.

Informed opinion indeed.
The earth is still flat for you, cause that's what it looks like when you look at it, right?

No, the earth is round, all you have to do is look at the horizon and see it curve. I never claimed it was an 'informed' opinion(with 'informed' apparently defined as 'agrees with me'), it's just an opinion, worth exactly the same as any other around here.

By that logic you shouldn't cut your hair, or wear a prosthetic arm if (due to a birth defect) you were born without one.

Do I really need to explain how radical gender reassignment surgery is different from a haircut? Use your head.

No, the earth is round, all you have to do is look at the horizon and see it curve. I never claimed it was an 'informed' opinion(with 'informed' apparently defined as 'agrees with me'), it's just an opinion, worth exactly the same as any other around here.


So the simple fact that there are a good number of people around who feel that their gender is not their biological sex doesn't give you a clue about how to determine gender? You still feel you need to equate it with sex?

In the most basic terms, I get that sex is broadly about what 'bits' you have, while gender is what you identify as.

The question of what precisely gender is, and where one's perceptions of gender identity come from, well that question has always made my brain melt, so I avoid thinking about it too much. There's probably some biological/genetic factor involved in making people feel at odds with their birth sex. But the examples of identical twins where one turns out to be transgender and the other one doesn't seem to suggest to me that its more of a predisposition towards more than a determinant. But I'm not a scientist.

Mind, if anyone has any questions about transgender stuff and would like an answer of dubious worth based purely on personal experience, feel free to ask me any non-flamey question and I'll try to get back to you :p

So the simple fact that there are a good number of people around who feel that their gender is not their biological sex doesn't give you a clue about how to determine gender? You still feel you need to equate it with sex?

"So the fact that someone somewhere has a feeling doesn't make you completely change your opinion and agree with me? HOW DARE YOU!" Try again.

I don't 'feel a need' to do anything. The OP asked for opinions and thoughts, which is what I gave. If you don't like them, hey, there's 4200 miles and the Atlantic Ocean between us, so you're unlikely to be troubled in any real way.

"So the fact that someone somewhere has a feeling doesn't make you completely change your opinion and agree with me? HOW DARE YOU!" Try again.

I don't 'feel a need' to do anything. The OP asked for opinions and thoughts, which is what I gave. If you don't like them, hey, there's 4200 miles and the Atlantic Ocean between us, so you're unlikely to be troubled in any real way.

It's a bit like claiming that gays don't exist, because after all they only "feel" something, right?
Way to go and ignore reality. Have fun with it while it lasts.

It's a bit like claiming that gays don't exist, because after all they only "feel" something, right?
Way to go and ignore reality. Have fun with it while it lasts.

Actually, it's not at all like that. You posited that someone somewhere disagrees with me, and that based on that hypothetical someone's hypothetical feelings that I should change my opinion and agree with you. I, in turn, pointed out that that was stupid.

Also, I'm not ignoring reality. At no point did I say that people who want sex-changes didn't exist, or that there was no such thing, or that no-one would do the procedure.

Actually, it's not at all like that. You posited that someone somewhere disagrees with me, and that based on that hypothetical someone's hypothetical feelings that I should change my opinion and agree with you. I, in turn, pointed out that that was stupid.

Also, I'm not ignoring reality. At no point did I say that people who want sex-changes didn't exist, or that there was no such thing, or that no-one would do the procedure.

I never based any claims on people not agreeing with you.
I simply stated that your claim that gender can be determined by sex is ignoring the reality that there are thousands of people out there for who percieve their gender different from their sex.

I never based any claims on people not agreeing with you.

What? Are we even having the same conversation here? I think you've branched off into your own little world there.

I simply stated that your claim that gender can be determined by sex is ignoring the reality that there are thousands of people out there for who percieve their gender different from their sex.

I'm not ignoring anything, especially reality. Just because you chop your pecker off, wear a dress and call yourself Sally doesn't make you a woman.

What? Are we even having the same conversation here? I think you've branched off into your own little world there.

To refresh your memory a little:

This is probably going to be a minority opinion(and an unpopular one, to boot)but I think people over-analyze the whole thing. Check your pants. If you have a pole, you're a guy. If you have a hole, you're a chick. .



I'm not ignoring anything, especially reality. Just because you chop your pecker off, wear a dress and call yourself Sally doesn't make you a woman.

Correction : A sex-change operation will re-align your sex with your gender if needed, however there will be people who will continue to think that their own opinion trumps your identity and the law.

Gender Dysphoria is one of the VERY few mental illnesses that surgical and chemical alteration can address without destroying the patient's cognitive capacity or personality. The person sees themselves as something other than their body says they are, and it can be addressed with hormones and surgery to make their body match their mind-i.e. to make them emotionally and mentally healthy.

You can't do that with Psychotics, schizophrenics, or MPD patients (at least, not and have it stick), but you CAN with GDS patients.

It's a small thing, really-but since it's a matter of an illness that we CAN treat, it makes sense to allow the treatment-a male-to-female transgender's not likely to be a threat to anyone, and there's lots of people out there who can't have kids the "Natural" way who aren't surgically constructed to be infertile.

Coming up with weird, new, divisive pronouns really isn't the answer-expediting the surgery is-after all, if they're just doing it to be 'in', it's not like it would be a good idea to let 'em breed anyway-we have enough shallow, vain, stupid, vapid folk in the world as it is. Those that actually ARE GDS (and not just doing it to be 'edgy' or something) really NEED the treatment that will solve their identity issues and make them whole people.

If it's a mental illness you can fix permanently, and have productive person on the finish-end of the procedure, well...that's worth it.

You know, I think this is one of those 'East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet' things. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

The old 'if a man is sucked off in the woods and there's no one round to see it, does that make him gay' philosophical question. *snip*

Ah, the Roy Cohn Hypothesis.

Having a transgender relative has made me re-think all I thought I knew about gender and sex. I still have trouble understanding all of it because I was always taught (apparently erroneously) that what is in your pants defines what you are.

I found this article and was wondering what people on here thought about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6994580/



Maybe things aren't as simple as we were led to believe.

What do you think?
My entire young life, I thought I was in the wrong body.

Everybody told me that "girls are this" and "boys are that" and I was always that. From my favorite color to my preferred toys to my attitudes about spiders to the clothes I liked to wear, absolutely everything fit into the "for boys" category. So, without really worrying about it, I concluded that I was a boy who'd been born in the wrong body.

Before puberty hit, it didn't bother me at all, or cause any problems. I was just a boy. But when puberty came along there was a crisis, because I was still the same person I'd always been but now my body was assertively female. For years I thought maybe I was transgender.

In the end, I concluded that I don't want to have a male body (except sometimes when I wish I could pee standing up). I just want to be myself, and our stupid culture insists that my personality and my thought process and my behavior and my interests are "male." All that surgery would do is make my mind and body conform to my culture's expectations. And that's not worth it to me.

I've never met a single gender stereotype that was true even half the time. People try to claim that these stereotypes are justified because "most" men or "most" women adhere to them, but I've never found that to be the case. Instead, a relative minority of people adhere to those stereotypes, but everyone really really focuses on those cases because they prop up our existing assumptions. Whenever we see a person who doesn't fit, we just brush it off as an exception to the rule.

I think this really complicates the entire area of gender studies. I have to wonder, if transgender people had grown up in a world where gender didn't force people into such rigid little roles from birth, would they still have needed to physically change their bodies? Could they have simply been the gender that they wanted, regardless of what body they had?

I suspect that SOME of them could have. I think there are others for whom the bodily differences are the key problem, and those people would physically transition no matter what. But I think there's at least a percentage of transgender people who are like me. I don't blame any of them for choosing to transition, because it's a pain in the ass to be a "man" in a female body in this culture. I'm guessing it's even worse to be a "woman" in a man's body, thanks to the fucked-up straightboy shit out there.

i have very strong opinions on the subject. cutting off your penis and making a vagina instead doesnt make you a woman. sewing up your vagina and adding a penis doesnt make you a man.

but if it makes you feel better, if it lets you lead a happy life. if its what you need to be able to get any happiness in this all too short life, DO IT. why should my opinion matter to your life? i have no need to be the one who decides what other people should do with their bodies in matters like this.

i have very strong opinions on the subject. cutting off your penis and making a vagina instead doesnt make you a woman. sewing up your vagina and adding a penis doesnt make you a man.

but if it makes you feel better, if it lets you lead a happy life. if its what you need to be able to get any happiness in this all too short life, DO IT. why should my opinion matter to your life? i have no need to be the one who decides what other people should do with their bodies in matters like this.
I used to feel that way too. My nephew announced when he was 18 months old that he was a girl........and he's never recanted. He's 14 now. He really feels he is a girl, and it's not a gender stereotype thing, something deep inside him is telling him that he is a girl, penis or not. He's been to counseling.....it's not going away.

I feel bad for his parents, they really don't know what to do with this. He's transitioned to feminine clothes but no drug therapy yet, they won't let him do that until he's a legal adult. He had to change schools and lost all his friends, they kicked him out of church and won't let him play sports. It breaks my heart.

I used to feel that way too. My nephew announced when he was 18 months old that he was a girl........and he's never recanted. He's 14 now. He really feels he is a girl, and it's not a gender stereotype thing, something deep inside him is telling him that he is a girl, penis or not. He's been to counseling.....it's not going away.

I feel bad for his parents, they really don't know what to do with this. He's transitioned to feminine clothes but no drug therapy yet, they won't let him do that until he's a legal adult. He had to change schools and lost all his friends, they kicked him out of church and won't let him play sports. It breaks my heart.
it is very hard and its not going to be easier until he is out of school and can decide his own associations.

but until he is old enough to go into serious transgender transition treatment he can empower himself by working summers and weekends to save up the money he'll need to get it done. its enormously expensive eh?

I used to feel that way too. My nephew announced when he was 18 months old that he was a girl........and he's never recanted. He's 14 now. He really feels he is a girl, and it's not a gender stereotype thing, something deep inside him is telling him that he is a girl, penis or not. He's been to counseling.....it's not going away.

I feel bad for his parents, they really don't know what to do with this. He's transitioned to feminine clothes but no drug therapy yet, they won't let him do that until he's a legal adult. He had to change schools and lost all his friends, they kicked him out of church and won't let him play sports. It breaks my heart.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about.

They kicked him out of church, won't let him play sports, he had to change schools...

WHY?!?!

He's a boy who wants to wear girl clothes and be addressed as a girl. SO WHAT?! Why do people have to flip their shit over that?

I just don't get it. Who does it hurt? It's like people care more about enforcing their personal views on gender than they care about the lives and health of kids like your nephew. They'd rather hurt him and stomp on his childhood than just get over themselves and let him live his life.

In terms of physical transitioning, I think it's fine to tell him to wait until he's 18, just like my parents told me I would have to wait until I was 18 if I wanted a tattoo. They simply wanted me to wait until I was older before I made a permanent modification to my body. In a sane world, it wouldn't have to be any more serious than that.

I wish your nephew got to live in a sane world. :(

it is very hard and its not going to be easier until he is out of school and can decide his own associations.

but until he is old enough to go into serious transgender transition treatment he can empower himself by working summers and weekends to save up the money he'll need to get it done. its enormously expensive eh?

He isn't ready to give up his penis yet. He's worried that he might be mentally ill, which is why I have to remember to use "he" now after three years of "she"... he would like to do hormones and get some breasts and quit growing hair on his face.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about.

They kicked him out of church, won't let him play sports, he had to change schools...

WHY?!?!

He's a boy who wants to wear girl clothes and be addressed as a girl. SO WHAT?! Why do people have to flip their shit over that?

I just don't get it. Who does it hurt? It's like people care more about enforcing their personal views on gender than they care about the lives and health of kids like your nephew. They'd rather hurt him and stomp on his childhood than just get over themselves and let him live his life.

In terms of physical transitioning, I think it's fine to tell him to wait until he's 18, just like my parents told me I would have to wait until I was 18 if I wanted a tattoo. They simply wanted me to wait until I was older before I made a permanent modification to my body. In a sane world, it wouldn't have to be any more serious than that.

I wish your nephew got to live in a sane world. :(

At least he has a cool aunt *pats self on back*

I took him to get his first dress....we had to keep it at my house because his parents wouldn't let him wear them at first. We bought a really frilly one with a tulle skirt......:)

My husband told him he looked "very pretty", which made him cry because his own dad used to be such an ass about this.

He isn't ready to give up his penis yet. He's worried that he might be mentally ill, which is why I have to remember to use "he" now after three years of "she"... he would like to do hormones and get some breasts and quit growing hair on his face.
poor kid. i suppose its out of the question for him to go to a therapist who might agree with him? it would be so helpful to him to be able to go to someone who could help him sort his feelings out honestly without a "youre going to hell for this" bias.

He isn't ready to give up his penis yet. He's worried that he might be mentally ill, which is why I have to remember to use "he" now after three years of "she"... he would like to do hormones and get some breasts and quit growing hair on his face.

I think it's perfectly understandable to have some reluctance at removing one's penis, even if one doesn't really think it belongs there. I'd like to think I'd feel that way about any other excess body part I was born with.

I think it's perfectly understandable to have some reluctance at removing one's penis, even if one doesn't really think it belongs there. I'd like to think I'd feel that way about any other excess body part I was born with.
Heck, I think it would be perfectly reasonable if he just wanted to keep it because it's a nice organ. Penises can be very useful and friendly appendages. Maybe the kid will want to have female-type breasts but also want to keep his genitals as they are.

I wish I could say that this is a viable choice for him, but the sad fact is that it would be very hard for him to live that way. It stinks, but in our world it's easier to "pick a side" and define yourself entirely as male or entirely as female, and make your body conform to that.

He isn't ready to give up his penis yet. He's worried that he might be mentally ill, which is why I have to remember to use "he" now after three years of "she"... he would like to do hormones and get some breasts and quit growing hair on his face.

Am I wrong in thinking that doctors, while not allowed to give feminising hormones to teenage MtF children, are allowed to give a testosterone blocker to prevent the child going through a male puberty on the grounds that this has no irreversible effects, and halting the treatment at any time will lead to an ordinary, albeit delayed, 'standard' puberty? Thats definitely the case in the UK, but I got the impression from Americans on transgender forums that this was an option there too.

EDIT: I've googled it up, and seems some American doctors will do it (pages were about controversies in the press about it) but its an emerging idea, a divisive issue, it isn't by any means a "standard" thing to do, and it depends heavily on the area whether there's anyone around who will do it.

He isn't ready to give up his penis yet. He's worried that he might be mentally ill, which is why I have to remember to use "he" now after three years of "she"... he would like to do hormones and get some breasts and quit growing hair on his face.
Heck, I think it would be perfectly reasonable if he just wanted to keep it because it's a nice organ. Penises can be very useful and friendly appendages. Maybe the kid will want to have female-type breasts but also want to keep his genitals as they are.

I wish I could say that this is a viable choice for him, but the sad fact is that it would be very hard for him to live that way. It stinks, but in our world it's easier to "pick a side" and define yourself entirely as male or entirely as female, and make your body conform to that.

It does stink the world is this way.
When I was younger I felt very much as described above, but never felt able to talk to anyone about it.
University was very liberating for that, and I was able to come at least partly out of the closet (but no further), but having to go home after each semester with all my gear still limited how much I did in that respect (mainly to the rocky horror or drag nights, always had a better time and felt more comfortable at those).

Enough of rant anyway, glad to hear that he has a supportive family (immediate and definitely extended) and I really hope things turn out how he wants and not how society dictates is acceptable.

My view is "whatever floats your boat!". If you want to do it, fine. If you want to view yourself as female in a male body, fine. If you want to be a girl playing football with the boys, fine.

The only thing I ask is that when I'm insensitive enough to confuse sex and gender ('cause both are MALE for me so I don't really do the distinction in my mind), don't give me a hard time and we'll be best of friends.

I can't stand holier-than-thou in any topic.

My view is "whatever floats your boat!". If you want to do it, fine. If you want to view yourself as female in a male body, fine. If you want to be a girl playing football with the boys, fine.

The only thing I ask is that when I'm insensitive enough to confuse sex and gender ('cause both are MALE for me so I don't really do the distinction in my mind), don't give me a hard time and we'll be best of friends.

I can't stand holier-than-thou in any topic.
That's a totally fair request. I think most trans people tend to be chill with honest mistakes, as long as you make it clear that it really was an honest mistake and you're not trying to give them shit.

Do try to give trans folks a little extra slack, though, since it's also possible you might encounter someone who isn't yet comfortable with their trans status. They tend to be defensive and easily-provoked because they're scared as shit about what they're going through. They're still in a stage where they question their own choices, so if anybody else even SEEMS to be questioning their choices it can be really threatening. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, just that they might come off as more aggressive or rude than they really intend to be.

Just because you want to have sex with other guys or want to wear dresses, or want to have sex with other chicks it doesn't mean you're not a guy, or a chick, it just means you have different tastes.

It's true. Being gay or into transvestism doesn't mean you are of a different gender than your sex.

Of course, being deeply and fundamentally convinced that your body doesn't fit your brain, to the point where you may well contemplate suicide, self-mutilation, or other desperate measures just to get out of that mismatched body kinda does.

The thing is, it's easy to think it's all simple and obvious until it affects you directly. I helped run a support group a few years back for smart, suicidal young people, and one of the kids that really got to me was a teenager who was biologically female but mentally male. At one point, he was hospitalized for trying to cut off his breasts with a steak knife, without any sterilization or anesthesia or anything. It just got so bad one day that he felt the breasts had to come off NOW. The idea that you could hate your body so much that you would do something like that - it hurts just to think about, and it makes you angry at a society that would tell him just to "get over it" and somehow decide not to feel that way. The pain of slicing a big part of his body off with a steak knife was less, to him, than the pain he was enduring every day, and people think he should just suck it up because being transgendered is weird? Ugh.

That's a totally fair request. I think most trans people tend to be chill with honest mistakes, as long as you make it clear that it really was an honest mistake and you're not trying to give them shit.

Do try to give trans folks a little extra slack, though, since it's also possible you might encounter someone who isn't yet comfortable with their trans status. They tend to be defensive and easily-provoked because they're scared as shit about what they're going through. They're still in a stage where they question their own choices, so if anybody else even SEEMS to be questioning their choices it can be really threatening. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, just that they might come off as more aggressive or rude than they really intend to be.

To quote a wise woman: That's a totally fair request. ;)

I grew up around people who really didn't make a big deal about differences. The nice thing about that is I didn't really start encountering some of the stupid-as-fuck ideas about sex/gender/race/sexuality/Ayn Rand until I started school.

My brother came out as TG about hmmmm...five years ago now? He knew when he was 9. I know quite a few transwomen and transmen, and if anyone is under the moronic impression that things are all hunky dory and society is oh so progressive and these sorts of things are hardly enough to raise an eyebrow anymore...well you need to come to Edmonton and see how fucking dangerous it still is to be different, ESPECIALLY when it comes to sexuality/gender identity.

A lot of people also like to point to cities like New York, or Toronto, or any large north American metropolis and go, oh wow, they're so tolerant! Yes. They have gay villages. Nice little ghettos where it is safe for gays and transgendered people to be. But you still need to worry about getting your ass beat down when you walk out openly in the rest of the city.

I am MORE upset with the myth that there is an acceptable level of tolerance in our societies for gay and transgendered people, than I am with the myth that feminism won, and women should stop bitching. Both views make it alright to accept the status quo.

This is probably going to be a minority opinion(and an unpopular one, to boot)but I think people over-analyze the whole thing. Check your pants. If you have a pole, you're a guy. If you have a hole, you're a chick. Just because you want to have sex with other guys or want to wear dresses, or want to have sex with other chicks it doesn't mean you're not a guy, or a chick, it just means you have different tastes. If I knew anything about the brain, I'd probably maunder on about how people's brains are wired, but I don't, so I'll spare y'all that.

A few things.

Crossdressers are usually not transgendered. They may or may not be gay. Just wanted to clear that up, because both crossdressers and TGs get annoyed when they get mixed up with one another.

Alright, back to the statements you've made. Pole = guy, hole = girl. Well, biologically yes, leaving aside the small percentage of people with ambiguous genitalia. I think the issue here is that biological sex doesn't always match gender. Physically altering yourself to match your gender is the only option for many people right now, and you should ask yourself why that is? We're not talking a few hours at the doctors...we're talking months, even years of work, hormones, reconstructions, training...and THAT is the easier route to take for those whose sex does not match their gender.

What is that saying? It's saying that in our societies, we are still so intolerant of gender deviating from sex, that it's easier to MAKE your sex match your gender, as much as is possible, than to try to carve out a space where you're just accepted as who you are. To me, that is unacceptable. It's horrifying.

So you have people on the extremes, whose gender is the polar opposite of their sex. What about everyone else? People who aren't at the extremes, but fit somewhere in the middle? They face the same sort of pressure...oh no, you're an effeminate man? Must be gay. Not gay? In the closet. Not in the closet? Fag. Lacking. Unattractive to women who want a 'real' man. Picked on by 'real men'. Better tough it up and learn how to be a 'real' man.

And so on.

If it's a mental illness you can fix permanently, and have productive person on the finish-end of the procedure, well...that's worth it.

It annoys me to no end that transgenderism is still considered a mental illness. Then again, if you define mental illness by deviation from the norm, I suppose it makes sense.

One of the ironic things about its classification as a mental illness in certain areas (because by no means is this a universal medical opinion, most of Canada, for example, does not approach it as such) is that you will have a situation like we do in Alberta. Alberta is extremely conservative, and politically hostile to gay and transgendered people. Yet, seeing transgenderism as a mental illness, they are the only province that will fully pay for gender reassignment. That must make the rednecks go fucking wild, with much gnashing of the teeth.

It annoys me to no end that transgenderism is still considered a mental illness. Then again, if you define mental illness by deviation from the norm, I suppose it makes sense.

One of the ironic things about its classification as a mental illness in certain areas (because by no means is this a universal medical opinion, most of Canada, for example, does not approach it as such) is that you will have a situation like we do in Alberta. Alberta is extremely conservative, and politically hostile to gay and transgendered people. Yet, seeing transgenderism as a mental illness, they are the only province that will fully pay for gender reassignment. That must make the rednecks go fucking wild, with much gnashing of the teeth.

well I think it's a matter of degree. Is thinking "I think I'm really a woman in a man's body" really a mental illness? No, probably not. Is taking a steak knife to your breasts to cut them off your body?

Now perhaps we're pushing it.

well I think it's a matter of degree. Is thinking "I think I'm really a woman in a man's body" really a mental illness? No, probably not. Is taking a steak knife to your breasts to cut them off your body?

Now perhaps we're pushing it.

For the last time, I told you someone slipped something in my drink.

well I think it's a matter of degree. Is thinking "I think I'm really a woman in a man's body" really a mental illness? No, probably not. Is taking a steak knife to your breasts to cut them off your body?

Now perhaps we're pushing it.

How much abuse, how much social discrimination, how much hatred would a person have to face before they reached the point? This is what I'm getting at. Can you be driven crazy by horrible bigotry? Yes. Is being transgendered automatically going to result in you facing that horribly bigotry, causing you to become mentally ill? Unfortunately, it's still a distinct possibility. Is that a problem with transgenderism, or with fucking douchebags who think it's funny to torment people who are different from them? Who the fuck is really mentally ill in that scenario?

It annoys me to no end that transgenderism is still considered a mental illness. Then again, if you define mental illness by deviation from the norm, I suppose it makes sense.


I actually don't mind this, although I somewhat prefer "mental disorder" to "mental illness" - but then, one of my pet issues is removing the stigma on mental disorders. It's part of why I make a point of being public about mine, even though I've often taken flak for it, because I think it is utterly ridiculous that having a chemical imbalance in my brain that impairs my functioning and quality of life is somehow "weak" or "not real," but having a chemical imbalance in, say, my pancreas that impairs my functioning and quality of life is just a medical issue, not a reflection of my worth as a human being. I am cool with transgendered-ness being classified as a mental disorder, because I don't see that as meaning "there's something BAD about your brain!" but rather "the way my brain works makes me unhappy if I don't treat it in any way."

How much abuse, how much social discrimination, how much hatred would a person have to face before they reached the point? This is what I'm getting at. Can you be driven crazy by horrible bigotry? Yes. Is being transgendered automatically going to result in you facing that horribly bigotry, causing you to become mentally ill? Unfortunately, it's still a distinct possibility. Is that a problem with transgenderism, or with fucking douchebags who think it's funny to torment people who are different from them? Who the fuck is really mentally ill in that scenario?

but then we're just making assumptions aren't we? Maybe this one particular person was just mentally ill.

I'm not saying gender confusion means you're mentally ill, I'm saying EXTREME forms of it, forms that can lead one to bodily mutilation, might be symptomatic of underlying pathology.

To use an example, a little close to home, not all sadists are mentally ill, but sexual sadism is a symptom of some mental disorders.

How much abuse, how much social discrimination, how much hatred would a person have to face before they reached the point? This is what I'm getting at. Can you be driven crazy by horrible bigotry? Yes. Is being transgendered automatically going to result in you facing that horribly bigotry, causing you to become mentally ill? Unfortunately, it's still a distinct possibility. Is that a problem with transgenderism, or with fucking douchebags who think it's funny to torment people who are different from them? Who the fuck is really mentally ill in that scenario?

Just to continue my previous point - I don't see being a fucking douchebag as a mental illness. I see it as being a fucking douchebag. You decide to be a fucking douchebag, and I'm not letting the fucking douchebags off the hook by suggesting it's a medical condition beyond their control. Plus, y'know, I'm mentally ill, and I don't want those fucking douchebags associated with me. :p

I actually don't mind this, although I somewhat prefer "mental disorder" to "mental illness" - but then, one of my pet issues is removing the stigma on mental disorders. It's part of why I make a point of being public about mine, even though I've often taken flak for it, because I think it is utterly ridiculous that having a chemical imbalance in my brain that impairs my functioning and quality of life is somehow "weak" or "not real," but having a chemical imbalance in, say, my pancreas that impairs my functioning and quality of life is just a medical issue, not a reflection of my worth as a human being. I am cool with transgendered-ness being classified as a mental disorder, because I don't see that as meaning "there's something BAD about your brain!" but rather "the way my brain works makes me unhappy if I don't treat it in any way."

Destigmatising a lot of these 'differences' would go a fuck of a long way to ensuring the possibility at a better quality of life for many people. It's nice to think about how that would look.

but then we're just making assumptions aren't we? Maybe this one particular person was just mentally ill. Yes. But was it 'transgenderism' or something else? Plenty of transgendered people refrain from kitchen knife self-mutilation...but most depressed people don't 'refrain' from being depressed.

I'm not saying gender confusion means you're mentally ill, I'm saying EXTREME forms of it, forms that can lead one to bodily mutilation, might be symptomatic of underlying pathology. Yes, and I accept that. However, transgenderism, where it is considered a mental illness, is often treated as the underlying pathology. I have difficulty with this, except as I mentioned, when it works for people sort of unexpectedly.

To use an example, a little close to home, not all sadists are mentally ill, but sexual sadism is a symptom of some mental disorders. I like how you pretend that you're a normal deviant:D Na, I know whatcha mean.

Just to continue my previous point - I don't see being a fucking douchebag as a mental illness. I see it as being a fucking douchebag. You decide to be a fucking douchebag, and I'm not letting the fucking douchebags off the hook by suggesting it's a medical condition beyond their control. Plus, y'know, I'm mentally ill, and I don't want those fucking douchebags associated with me. :p

Noted :P All I was saying is that if the situation were reversed, and it was finally socially unacceptable to be that level of douchebag, then those douchebags might find themselves slapped with the stigmatising label of 'mentally ill'...except not, because at that point, mental illness wouldn't be viewed in such a negative light so okay, whatever. Douchebags are douchebags, end of point :D

Noted :P All I was saying is that if the situation were reversed, and it was finally socially unacceptable to be that level of douchebag, then those douchebags might find themselves slapped with the stigmatising label of 'mentally ill'...except not, because at that point, mental illness wouldn't be viewed in such a negative light so okay, whatever. Douchebags are douchebags, end of point :D

Hehe, exactly. :p

Can the two of you talk to each other a little bit closer?

Closer.

....clooooooser.

Good, now kiss.

well I think it's a matter of degree. Is thinking "I think I'm really a woman in a man's body" really a mental illness? No, probably not. Is taking a steak knife to your breasts to cut them off your body?

Now perhaps we're pushing it.
We apply that standard to pretty much everything already.

Enjoy drinking alcohol? Not a mental illness. Enjoy drinking to the point where you black out every day, your liver is shutting down, your life is in ruins, and you simply can't get yourself to stop? Yeah, that'd be a problem.

My mom (the psychologist) once told me that something is a mental illness if it fucks you up to the point where you cannot live your life, or if it causes you to directly hurt other people. Mental illness isn't simply anything that's weird or "abnormal" about you.

The extremes are always easy to identify. It's the middle ground that's a bitch. It's easy to tell when somebody's hit rock bottom with a given problem, but it's not so easy to pinpoint the exact moment that they stepped over the line into mental illness.

Are you a homo if you do it with a post op man became woman transexual? Is there still a prostate left in there? Does it matter if the prostate is still in there?

What if you did not know that it was anything other than a girl?

Are you a homo if you do it with a post op man became woman transexual? Is there still a prostate left in there? Does it matter if the prostate is still in there?

What if you did not know that it was anything other than a girl?

No/why the hell does it matter, I don't know, I can't imagine why it would, and still no/why the hell does it matter, respectively.

Are you a homo if you do it with a post op man became woman transexual? Is there still a prostate left in there? Does it matter if the prostate is still in there?

What if you did not know that it was anything other than a girl?

why? worried your new girlfriend might not be "exactly what she seems"?

why? worried your new girlfriend might not be "exactly what she seems"?

I still maintain that if the song had been "I kissed a boy and I liked it," performed by P. Diddy, it would have been both more entertaining and also a lot more subversive.

(Which isn't really saying much since the original form isn't subversive at all, but hopefully you see my point.)

I still maintain that if the song had been "I kissed a boy and I liked it," performed by P. Diddy, it would have been both more entertaining and also a lot more subversive.

(Which isn't really saying much since the original form isn't subversive at all, but hopefully you see my point.)

Victor, Victoria, what?

I still maintain that if the song had been "I kissed a boy and I liked it," performed by P. Diddy, it would have been both more entertaining and also a lot more subversive.

(Which isn't really saying much since the original form isn't subversive at all, but hopefully you see my point.)

I am unconvinced that anything P. Diddy performed would be entertaining, but I would be totally in favor of some other male performer discussing his interest in kissing boys. :p

I am unconvinced that anything P. Diddy performed would be entertaining, but I would be totally in favor of some other male performer discussing his interest in kissing boys. :p
I bought that skin care stuff, ProActive, because I saw an ad with P.Diddy selling it.

"Hi, I'm a badass rapper who built his image around being a playa, and I'm here to tell you how I keep my skin soft and pretty."

I dunno, I go for that sort of thing.

No/why the hell does it matter, I don't know, I can't imagine why it would, and still no/why the hell does it matter, respectively.

So once the external junk is removed it is fair game is what you are saying? Is the prostate removed in a sex change operation. I imagine that it would have to be. If it wasnt, then where would the prostate fluid go? At least the sex changed wont need to worry about prostate cancer I guess.

But if they do not have a prostate do they have a G-spot at all? Do transexuals even get orgasms at all?

So once the external junk is removed it is fair game is what you are saying?

"fair game"? What the fuck are you talking about? Do you think you need permission from the heterosexual god to fuck a post op or something?

"fair game"? What the fuck are you talking about? Do you think you need permission from the heterosexual god to fuck a post op or something?

In a sense yes. The "heterosexual god" sounds a little polytheistic but I certainly do not want to do anything sinful.

In a sense yes. The "heterosexual god" sounds a little polytheistic but I certainly do not want to do anything sinful.
if that worries you you should talk to your pastor about it. no one here can absolve you of sin.

I am nore curious about whether post ops can have orgasms. I guess everything that could come, went.

I am nore curious about whether post ops can have orgasms. I guess everything that could come, went.
all i know is what ive read. in that case the answer would be a general "yes"

I am nore curious about whether post ops can have orgasms. I guess everything that could come, went.

Given that it is entirely possible to have an orgasm without anything touching your genitals in the first place, of course it is possible.

Given that it is entirely possible to have an orgasm without anything touching your genitals in the first place, of course it is possible.

I need you to come over to my place for an hour or two of just talking.

Actually, it's not at all like that. You posited that someone somewhere disagrees with me, and that based on that hypothetical someone's hypothetical feelings that I should change my opinion and agree with you. I, in turn, pointed out that that was stupid.

The difference being that "someone somewhere" is actually going through this, thus making their take on it much more relevant than yours.

Personally, I think this is a very complex issue - made even more complex by the fact that we really can't separate ourselves from the effects of social pressure.

And, while I'm fascinated by any study into these issues, I think the best way to handle it as a society is to not make such a big deal out of it. The biological questions are interesting - and I encourage study into them - but I don't really think it matters if there is an easily identifiable cause when it comes to how we should treat people.

If little Bobby insists that she is a girl and wants to be called Sally, go with it. Maybe it'll turn out to be a phase (my cousin went through an "I'm a boy" phase, complete with choosing a male name for several months). Maybe that will be the way she will live for the rest of her life. But who is harmed by it? No one. Who is harmed by ostracizing people who are "different"? Everyone who is different (which, in the end, is all of us - to some extent).

well I think it's a matter of degree. Is thinking "I think I'm really a woman in a man's body" really a mental illness? No, probably not. Is taking a steak knife to your breasts to cut them off your body?

Now perhaps we're pushing it.

I'm not sure if I'm just misremembering, but isn't there some sort of actual mental disease (not sure if I should put quotes around it, considering the context :/ No one assume I'm insulting TGs) where you feel body parts arn't yours and try to cut them off or get them removed? What's the difference between the TG in this case and the person who wants to get their hand removed because they don't feel it belongs?

Note: Again, honest question here if one of you folks who has a TG in the family or the like knows about it.

Like TCT said, yay sex nay gender. People can get a sex change once a month if they want to and I won't hold it against them. In fact I really don't want to know if they did. Its how much I don't care.

Given that it is entirely possible to have an orgasm without anything touching your genitals in the first place, of course it is possible.

Speak for yourself. :(

I don't understand. Couldnt you look at the internal parts to determine if the child is Male or Female and alter the external genetals. I mean, the exterior is more easily manipulated, right? You cant make a womb, can you?

I don't understand. Couldnt you look at the internal parts to determine if the child is Male or Female and alter the external genetals. I mean, the exterior is more easily manipulated, right? You cant make a womb, can you?

You spun around three times before you came into this thread, didn't you.

You spun around three times before you came into this thread, didn't you.

what? huh? Im still spinning, must be

The difference being that "someone somewhere" is actually going through this, thus making their take on it much more relevant than yours.

As far as relevance goes, sure, that goes without saying. What I understood Cabra to be saying though, is that because someone out there might(or would)disagree with me, that I should change my point of view, something I'm not in the habit of doing merely because of 'disagreement.'

Do I really need to explain how radical gender reassignment surgery is different from a haircut? Use your head.

So no argument on the prosthetic arm then? If a prosthetic arm, why not a prosthetic pecker, plus the double mastectomy is good protection against breast cancer.

I used to feel that way too. My nephew announced when he was 18 months old that he was a girl........and he's never recanted. He's 14 now. He really feels he is a girl, and it's not a gender stereotype thing, something deep inside him is telling him that he is a girl, penis or not. He's been to counseling.....it's not going away.

I feel bad for his parents, they really don't know what to do with this. He's transitioned to feminine clothes but no drug therapy yet, they won't let him do that until he's a legal adult. He had to change schools and lost all his friends, they kicked him out of church and won't let him play sports. It breaks my heart.

Any friends he lost over this weren't friends in the first place.

It annoys me to no end that transgenderism is still considered a mental illness. Then again, if you define mental illness by deviation from the norm, I suppose it makes sense.

One of the ironic things about its classification as a mental illness in certain areas (because by no means is this a universal medical opinion, most of Canada, for example, does not approach it as such) is that you will have a situation like we do in Alberta. Alberta is extremely conservative, and politically hostile to gay and transgendered people. Yet, seeing transgenderism as a mental illness, they are the only province that will fully pay for gender reassignment. That must make the rednecks go fucking wild, with much gnashing of the teeth.

If what's inside your head, is not what's on the outside of your body, and it makes you feel like dogshit that there's a difference, then it's a problem-if it's something that you can't fix without a doctor, then it might, just might, be a mental illness, since it screws up your ability to function and live a normal life to have that kind of conflict.

If you can't fix it without a doctor, and it's a problem, and it can be fixed, and it's not an illness, what is it? GDS is a real, serious, often suicide inducing PROBLEM-when all the damage is caused by a distress that isn't immediately apparent (i.e. no cancer, no broken bones, no broken skin, no blood everywhere or fevers or such), when the problem's internal and mostly mental then, it's a mental illness.

Ergo, GDS is a mental illness, it's treatable, and the cure is making the body match the mind (instead of trying to warp the mind to match the body), body-work is easier than mind-work. Change the bodywork, and the person is healthy?

Change the Bodywork.

Any friends he lost over this weren't friends in the first place.

Exactly. If you're lucky, you might have one or two genuine, true, REAL friends in a lifetime. Everyone else is someone ranging from "casual acquaintance" to "Buddy".

Exactly. If you're lucky, you might have one or two genuine, true, REAL friends in a lifetime. Everyone else is someone ranging from "casual acquaintance" to "Buddy".
yes but when you are 14 and completely ostracized at school it doesnt much matter who was and wasnt a "real" friend. you just found out that none of them were.

I think I should say something, cause this is about me, too, but I can't quite figure out what. Here goes nothing.

I think we shouldn't make any assumptions about personalities based on external features. If we don't do that with skin color, why should we with pole vs hole vs other?

I think everyone should be free to change anything about their bodies, except when they're possibly going through a temporary mental issue and would most likely regret it later (that includes drunk people who want tattoos). That said, I'm very much in favor of giving gender-confused children hormone blockers, because some damage done by postponing their decision is very difficult and expensive (if not impossible) to undo (especially for MtF).

I think well-meant advice about conformism (both in favor and against) just adds to the confusion.
It's all really simple as long as people refrain from telling each other what to do and what to think. But isn't that true for most social issues?

Although most people seem to fit either the "heterosexual male" or "heterosexual female" label, sex and gender and sexual preference are all separate, and none of the three things is an either-or matter with no grey area in between.

By the way, I think we should not only distinguish between sex and gender, but also between sexual preference and gender preference. For example I don't care what is in the pants of my (nonexistent) girlfriend, but I do care what is in her head (and bra :P ). I don't think that makes me bisexual or even pansexual, but if you only look at what is or was in the pants, or at the genome...

As far as relevance goes, sure, that goes without saying. What I understood Cabra to be saying though, is that because someone out there might(or would)disagree with me, that I should change my point of view, something I'm not in the habit of doing merely because of 'disagreement.'

You might want to work on your reading comprehension, then.
I've never said you should change your mind if people disagree with you, I said it's stupid to pretend that you can determine a person's gender by their genitalia when clearly there are lots of people out there whose sex doesn't correlate to their gender identity. If you choose to ignore the fact that people like that exist, you choose to ignore reality.
I've spelled that out in a number of posts.

Given that it is entirely possible to have an orgasm without anything touching your genitals in the first place, of course it is possible.

Yeah but if all of the parts that do the orgasm thing are surgically removed, I do not think that I would conclude that "of course it is possible."

all i know is what ive read. in that case the answer would be a general "yes"

So if all of the sex parts were removed, what would have the orgasm? I mean there is not even a prostate gland.

Yeah but if all of the parts that do the orgasm thing are surgically removed, I do not think that I would conclude that "of course it is possible."

I don't have the actual surgical procedure in front of me right now, but from what I understand those parts are not surgically removed. It's more that they're re-organized.

Yeah but if all of the parts that do the orgasm thing are surgically removed, I do not think that I would conclude that "of course it is possible."

You don't seem to be reading what I wrote. People can have orgasms without their genitals being involved at all. It's happened. Therefore, it is pretty obviously possible that even if you chopped someone's genitals off completely, it would be possible for them to have an orgasm. It probably wouldn't be as easy, but it is unquestionably possible.

You don't seem to be reading what I wrote. People can have orgasms without their genitals being involved at all. It's happened. Therefore, it is pretty obviously possible that even if you chopped someone's genitals off completely, it would be possible for them to have an orgasm. It probably wouldn't be as easy, but it is unquestionably possible.

He's confusing ejaculation with orgasm. Men who have had their prostates removed due to disease can often still have orgasms......they just can't ejaculate.

He's confusing ejaculation with orgasm. Men who have had their prostates removed due to disease can often still have orgasms......they just can't ejaculate.

*blink*

I honestly did not even consider that that might be what he meant.

Well, yeah, then, GF, post-op MTF women presumably don't ejaculate semen, because...that would make no sense.

I admit that I don't understand at all which is why I don't buy it when the pulpit set tells me its all so simple.

To paraphrase Margaret Thatcher (and who doesn't love Margaret Thatcher?):

Being a leader is like being a lady: if you have to tell people that's what you are, you aren't one.

Same principle applies to gender for me: I'll respect anyone's gender identity, no matter how quirky, but the memory is not infallible. A few gender-specific accoutrements go a long way in sorting out who's what. :p

I admit that I don't understand at all which is why I don't buy it when the pulpit set tells me its all so simple.

I wouldn't buy anything the pulpit tells you. I'm just sayin'.

I don't know if this counts since it was fiction, but a Japanese novel translated into English I'm reading has a character with a vagina and testicles. Its all based, as the article says, on the chromosomes you were made from.

I don't know if this counts since it was fiction, but a Japanese novel translated into English I'm reading has a character with a vagina and testicles. Its all based, as the article says, on the chromosomes you were made from.

That's a real, if rare, phenomenon. You'd call someone like that "intersex," I believe.

That's a real, if rare, phenomenon. You'd call someone like that "intersex," I believe.

Okay. Just didn't know b/c its a horror book. I believe the correct terminology would be "testes" since there was no shaft.

I don't know if this counts since it was fiction, but a Japanese novel translated into English I'm reading has a character with a vagina and testicles. Its all based, as the article says, on the chromosomes you were made from.

It is certainly possible to have a vagina and undescended testes, or ambiguous genitals. I'm not aware of any case in which a person actually had both distinct sets of genitalia or reproductive organs.

This can be a matter of having/not having specific chromosomes, or it can be a matter of single genes being different. In complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS), for instance, someone has XY chromosomes, but develops completely as female. This is because her cells do not respond to hormones normally, and this blocks male development (female is the default). She can, however, have testes that never descended, and thus become a cancer risk.