NationStates Jolt Archive

So, the BBC is reporting that the US military is going to accept immigrants with temporary visas into the service. This would be the first time since the Vietnam Conflict that they would be doing this. Is this a good idea? Bad? Do you even care?


US army 'wants more immigrants'
US soldiers and local people in Afghanistan
The US army wants people who can communicate with locals

The United States army is to accept immigrants with temporary US visas, for the first time since the Vietnam war, according to the New York Times.

Until now immigrants have had to have permanent residency - a "green card" - in order to qualify for the services.

But those with temporary visas will be offered accelerated citizenship if they enrol, the Times says.

The Pentagon hopes the scheme will cover shortages in areas like medical care and language interpretation.

Many temporary immigrants will have been granted visas on the basis of their education or skills, so the defence department expects the new recruits to be more qualified than applicants who are US citizens - and in particular to have languages useful in combat zones like Afghanistan and Iraq.

"The American army finds itself in a lot of different countries where cultural awareness is critical," said Lt-Gen Benjamin C Freakley, the top recruitment officer for the army.

"There will be some very talented folks in this group," he told the New York Times.

"The army will gain in its strength in human capital, and the immigrants will gain their citizenship and get on a ramp to the American dream."

Opposition from veterans

The Times said the scheme could cut the time a temporary resident had to wait for a green card from up to 10 years to as little as six months.

The programme will be limited to 1,000 enlistees in its first year, but if successful could be spread to other services and expanded. It could eventually provide the army with one in six of its recruits, the Times said.

Army recruiters say their job has become easier in recent months as unemployment has risen in the US. But even so, they regret having had to turn away many immigrants because they had only temporary residency.

However, the Times said there appeared to be some opposition from officers and veterans, who expressed concern that some foreigners might have divided loyalties or be terrorists seeking to infiltrate the US armed services.

They sell it pretty well. I don't have a problem if a person wants to be part of this country and has a desire to serve it. The only problem I would be worried about is the last thing reported in the article. I try not to be paranoid, but I do think there would be a very real possibility that this might not end well. Its not even the fact that those immigrants joining may or may not be disloyal to the US and are trying to hit it from within the military. Its kind of the opposite, actually, for me. I am afraid that there will be a big problem between foreigners and those American soldiers already in the combat zone. The fact there are some officers and veterans already seemingly paranoid makes me think that there could be some hostility laying around in the hearts and minds of some people.

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891222.stm

I think it's a great idea.

breaking news: asteroid impact near Mexico mass extinction feared

also article somehow seems to think the shortage is in medical and languages when really its bods on the ground

So, the BBC is reporting that the US military is going to accept immigrants with temporary visas into the service. This would be the first time since the Vietnam Conflict that they would be doing this. Is this a good idea? Bad? Do you even care?

good they still need to sort out living in the US and all it does is provide you with a workplace (like the first part of getting in the US)

never hurt Britain recruiting in the Commonwealth

I am afraid that there will be a big problem between foreigners and those American soldiers already in the combat zone. The fact there are some officers and veterans already seemingly paranoid makes me think that there could be some hostility laying around in the hearts and minds of some people.

this would be nonsense

Well I suppose it will save the trouble of going overseas to kill foreigners and allies

I think it can work, depends whether the army wants foreign people enrolled.

@Call to power. Hmm, I'm not sure, but I think the British recruit inside the UK and the commonwealth only, and even then you have be be half British (If commonwealth/immigrant).

Considering that one of the most potent and shocking terrorist attacks in the nineties was carried out by an American Citizen and veteran of the first gulf war, it's not too big a stretch to consider that non-U.S. persons might be even more likely to be entering the service for reasons not related to defending the nation.

(The terror attack I refer to is, of course, the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.)

The real problem this decision masks is this: When the Legions are no longer comprised of citizens, how long before their loyalty is no longer to the nation, but to their officers and unit organizations? Roman forces toward the end of the empire were largely comprised of non-citizen, non-roman troops, many of which didn't speak latin. This state of affairs was largely because Roman citizens found nothing attractive about serving in the military, preferring instead a lifestyle of bread-and-circuses on the public dole.

EVEN in hard economic times. Those legions of foreigners sacked rome no less than a total of eight times.

Provided the recruits are properly selected and dispersed, not a problem at all. Wonderful idea actually; the pay could be reduced, and they're more expendable.

Considering that one of the most potent and shocking terrorist attacks in the nineties was carried out by an American Citizen and veteran of the first gulf war, it's not too big a stretch to consider that non-U.S. persons might be even more likely to be entering the service for reasons not related to defending the nation.

(The terror attack I refer to is, of course, the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.)

The real problem this decision masks is this: When the Legions are no longer comprised of citizens, how long before their loyalty is no longer to the nation, but to their officers and unit organizations? Roman forces toward the end of the empire were largely comprised of non-citizen, non-roman troops, many of which didn't speak latin. This state of affairs was largely because Roman citizens found nothing attractive about serving in the military, preferring instead a lifestyle of bread-and-circuses on the public dole.

EVEN in hard economic times. Those legions of foreigners sacked rome no less than a total of eight times.

Simplistic interpretation at best. Every "successor state" and barbarian Patrician demonstrate every interest in assimilation into "Romanitas".

the pay could be reduced, and they're more expendable.

Any particular reason you're going for this cold, Machiavellian tone? It doesn't really seem... authentic.

Any particular reason you're going for this cold, Machiavellian tone? It doesn't really seem... authentic.

Just logic. War is bloody expensive, and, in modernity, it's human tragedies are more reported than ever; using troops who recieve less pay and can be deployed with less regard for public reaction and perception makes good sense.

Offering US citizneship after a certain period service would be an excellent reward also.

Provided the recruits are properly selected and dispersed, not a problem at all. Wonderful idea actually; the pay could be reduced, and they're more expendable.

Do you REALLY want to bottom-feed the guy driving (or fixing) a seventeen million dollar tank? How much do you think Soldiers are Paid? (less than minimum wage at lower ranks when you only divide it up by the eight hour days most civilians work, and forty hour weeks. Soldiers are effectively "on-Call" and work 24 hour days and longer. I knew NCO's in the bad 'ole nineties that had to go on food stamps to support their families. Similar work, with similar hours and similar seniority in the civilian sector and they'd be in much better financial shape...)

Do you REALLY want to bottom-feed the guy driving (or fixing) a seventeen million dollar tank? How much do you think Soldiers are Paid? (less than minimum wage at lower ranks when you only divide it up by the eight hour days most civilians work, and forty hour weeks. Soldiers are effectively "on-Call" and work 24 hour days and longer. I knew NCO's in the bad 'ole nineties that had to go on food stamps to support their families. Similar work, with similar hours and similar seniority in the civilian sector and they'd be in much better financial shape...)

Of course I'd like to reduce the burden of the military upon the fisc.

Simplistic interpretation at best. Every "successor state" and barbarian Patrician demonstrate every interest in assimilation into "Romanitas".

And a complete and utter lack of understanding of what that is-IIRC, Attila tried to build a "Roman" city after visiting (as a hostage) a Roman city-wanting the symbols and the stuff isn't the same thing as supporting the concepts and ideals (or, in our case, Constitution).

And a complete and utter lack of understanding of what that is-IIRC, Attila tried to build a "Roman" city after visiting (as a hostage) a Roman city-wanting the symbols and the stuff isn't the same thing as supporting the concepts and ideals (or, in our case, Constitution).

No, he didn't. One of Attila's generals, whose name begins with an O, demanded Roman builders for a bath house. Attila, in policy, never sought anything of the sort; I'd be intruiged as to where you've read this actually.

No, he didn't. One of Attila's generals, whose name begins with an O, demanded Roman builders for a bath house. Attila, in policy, never sought anything of the sort; I'd be intruiged as to where you've read this actually.

Misinterpreted data-but the point stands, wanting the stuff and the symbols isn't the same thing as belief in the underlying concepts. A guy who works at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in the Phillipines may still be an adherent of that region's radical islam, a guy who loves Coca-Cola in Saudi Arabia probably isn't a fan of the idea of Freedom of Religion. Just because that arms dealer likes to work in Dollars doesn't mean he isn't cutting a discount to the guys who want to kill Americans, and so on...

Hell, for that matter, there's been some concern about Street Gang members entering the Service-not to serve their country, but to learn military tactics and techniques including organizational and operational methodology to use against other U.S. street gangs and the Police! I could think of WORSE methods for groups like Al Quaeda to train their trainers, than to have them enlist in the U.S. army and learn the techniques first-hand-after all, it's worked for MS-13, the Gangsta Disciples, the Crips, Bloods, etc. etc.

Misinterpreted data-but the point stands, wanting the stuff and the symbols isn't the same thing as belief in the underlying concepts. A guy who works at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in the Phillipines may still be an adherent of that region's radical islam, a guy who loves Coca-Cola in Saudi Arabia probably isn't a fan of the idea of Freedom of Religion. Just because that arms dealer likes to work in Dollars doesn't mean he isn't cutting a discount to the guys who want to kill Americans, and so on...

Hell, for that matter, there's been some concern about Street Gang members entering the Service-not to serve their country, but to learn military tactics and techniques including organizational and operational methodology to use against other U.S. street gangs and the Police! I could think of WORSE methods for groups like Al Quaeda to train their trainers, than to have them enlist in the U.S. army and learn the techniques first-hand-after all, it's worked for MS-13, the Gangsta Disciples, the Crips, Bloods, etc. etc.


With "Romanitas", however, it is; the symbolism and physical manifestations are impossible without a belief in the divinely ordained "imperium" Ovid and Virgil articulate so well. Do remember that both Ostrogoth and Visigoth states retained the name, and bust, of the incumbent emperor at Constantinople, through periods of relative Byzantine weakness.

What changes to create a dichotomy between east and west is the Justinianic equation of barbarian rule to an absence of "Romanitas".

I wonder whether they'd accept Ursine volunteers? ;)

This is news? I thought that just recently, a US soldier had been killed in combat who was working towards his citizenship?

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/02/1178526.aspx
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/22/news/soldier.php
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-01-16-dec-glimpses_x.htm

And apparently for many years in this conflict.

Its like using the conscripts in Braveheart. Send them in first, then shoot them in the back with arrows when your done.

So, the BBC is reporting that the US military is going to accept immigrants with temporary visas into the service. This would be the first time since the Vietnam Conflict that they would be doing this. Is this a good idea? Bad? Do you even care?

The fact there are some officers and veterans already seemingly paranoid makes me think that there could be some hostility laying around in the hearts and minds of some people.
Language is one problem... but I'm worried that we might have a all-volunteer, all-foreign force at some point in the future. A military made up of non-native citizens isn't going to be as reliable, if it ever comes to homeland defense.

But if we want a foreign legion, this may be the ticket.

We had non-citizens serving when I was in. There were language requirements, followed by classes for those who needed them, and I never saw any of them treated any differently from any other Marine.

Of course, they already had permanent resident status before they could apply. These people wouldn't have that yet.

So, the BBC is reporting that the US military is going to accept immigrants with temporary visas into the service. This would be the first time since the Vietnam Conflict that they would be doing this. Is this a good idea? Bad? Do you even care?

??? Say what? Ermm... Service in the US military has been been a very long term established and honorable means of earning a fast tracked citizenship.

That green card bit is quite new...

??? Say what? Ermm... Service in the US military has been been a very long term established and honorable means of earning a fast tracked citizenship.

That green card bit is quite new...

Yeah, but before this change you had to have a permanent visa, i.e. permanent residency. Now you don't.

Its like using the conscripts in Braveheart. Send them in first, then shoot them in the back with arrows when your done.

Beats doing that to their allies as seems to be the case at the moment.

That green card bit is quite new...

Yeah, but before this change you had to have a permanent visa, i.e. permanent residency. Now you don't.

That was quite new though, wasn't it? Post Vietnam, if not Post 2001?

That was quite new though, wasn't it? Post Vietnam, if not Post 2001?

My understanding was that they'd discontinued the practice previously in 1975. Twenty four years is a a reasonble period.

My understanding was that they'd discontinued the practice previously in 1975. Twenty four years is a a reasonble period.

Ah. Even in US history, 35 some odd years is recent...

Call to power. Hmm, I'm not sure, but I think the British recruit inside the UK and the commonwealth only, and even then you have be be half British (If commonwealth/immigrant).

you have to have spent the past 3 years in any Commonwealth country that is all and from what I've heard the recruiters fly you to the UK and you get a free day in London (Its a great way to move around if you ever swing towards treason as long as its in the commonwealth* :wink:)

had a good buddy who moved from Ghana and was basically saving up about 40K to move back and live like a king

*great argument for getting rid of the monarchy: the commonwealth would expand greatly without the Queen as head

the pay could be reduced, and they're more expendable.

getting treated like shit for a starting pay of 14k gets old quickly enough as it is

But if we want a foreign legion, this may be the ticket.

iirc the foreign legion is actually full of Frenchmen and was for a time its professional army

Just logic. War is bloody expensive, and, in modernity, it's human tragedies are more reported than ever; using troops who recieve less pay and can be deployed with less regard for public reaction and perception makes good sense.


To sum it up: Who gives a fuck if immigrate soldiers die?

For all the bullshit the government spews about terrorism, this seems like a pretty bad idea.

It's a wise idea.

The only problem being they'll need to brainwash the foreign legions extra hard to make up for their lack of patriotism towards America. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but oh well.

So, the BBC is reporting that the US military is going to accept immigrants with temporary visas into the service. This would be the first time since the Vietnam Conflict that they would be doing this. Is this a good idea? Bad? Do you even care?



They sell it pretty well. I don't have a problem if a person wants to be part of this country and has a desire to serve it. The only problem I would be worried about is the last thing reported in the article. I try not to be paranoid, but I do think there would be a very real possibility that this might not end well. Its not even the fact that those immigrants joining may or may not be disloyal to the US and are trying to hit it from within the military. Its kind of the opposite, actually, for me. I am afraid that there will be a big problem between foreigners and those American soldiers already in the combat zone. The fact there are some officers and veterans already seemingly paranoid makes me think that there could be some hostility laying around in the hearts and minds of some people.

The only thing I am worried about is that immigrants might just join the service so they can live here. I find the type of bargain reprehensible, especially to the immigrant.

The only problem being they'll need to brainwash the foreign legions extra hard to make up for their lack of patriotism towards America. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but oh well.

one moment I'm a robot and the next moment I'm a brainwashed zombie

I'm sick of having to keep up with all these bizarre ideas people with absolutely no military experience have can't I just be a baby killer and be done with it already?

The only thing I am worried about is that immigrants might just join the service so they can live here. I find the type of bargain reprehensible, especially to the immigrant.

so your also against work visas?

one moment I'm a robot and the next moment I'm a brainwashed zombie


You're a ninja pirate.

You're a ninja pirate.

*lurks in the shadows in search of booty leaving the odour of rum wherever I pass*

To sum it up: Who gives a fuck if immigrate soldiers die?

Well it's not like they're white or anything.

Just draft the entire planet and declare victory.

so your also against work visas?

If they involve the military? Yes. I do not like the idea of: "Okay, you can live here, but first you have to allow us to toss you in an area full persons shooting at you while you try to kill them." Do not try to compare the military to a regular job; it is not. If someone seriously loves the United States, and is willing die for it, he should join; but if he does not want to bleed and kill, he should not.

Just draft the entire planet and declare victory.

fuck that everyone would just go on the dole and bankrupt the evil oppressors :p

If they involve the military? Yes. I do not like the idea of: "Okay, you can live here, but first you have to allow us to toss you in an area full persons shooting at you while you try to kill them." Do not try to compare the military to a regular job; it is not. If someone seriously loves the United States, and is willing die for it, he should join; but if he does not want to bleed and kill, he should not.

your forgetting of course that this isn't the only way to citizenship and would certainly prove their eligibility for citizenship (seeing as how its is just considered like a work visa anyway)

your forgetting of course that this isn't the only way to citizenship

But if our wars keep multiplying, it will be the easiest.

and would certainly prove their eligibility for citizenship

That is the problem. Someone should not have to encounter the very real possibility of death to become a citizen.

(seeing as how its is just considered like a work visa anyway)

And it should not be; this cannot lead anywhere good.

But if our wars keep multiplying, it will be the easiest.

we ain't at war so I guess all is well :p

That is the problem. Someone should not have to encounter the very real possibility of death to become a citizen.

they don't have to

And it should not be; this cannot lead anywhere good.

its worked in the UK for decades so I guess it leads to cheese on crumpets and tea

They sell it pretty well. I don't have a problem if a person wants to be part of this country and has a desire to serve it. The only problem I would be worried about is the last thing reported in the article. I try not to be paranoid, but I do think there would be a very real possibility that this might not end well. Its not even the fact that those immigrants joining may or may not be disloyal to the US and are trying to hit it from within the military. Its kind of the opposite, actually, for me. I am afraid that there will be a big problem between foreigners and those American soldiers already in the combat zone. The fact there are some officers and veterans already seemingly paranoid makes me think that there could be some hostility laying around in the hearts and minds of some people.

I like it. I hate, and oppose illegal immigration into our country. That being said, I support completely legal immigration, and encourage it.

As far as infiltration goes, I really don't think Osama Jr. is going to enlist for a 30-year career track to actually be a high enough rank to do a lot of harm. Pfc. Osama Jr. in theory couldn't disrupt too much.

Either way, I like the plan. I like our defense force, and I like legal immigration, they go hand in hand here, it seems.

we ain't at war so I guess all is well :p

But...............................0
...if we simplify w and divide by 0, we get ∞.




they don't have to


No, but it might be the easiest option. It could come down to: if you fight, you can come in, if you do not fight, you cannot come it.


its worked in the UK for decades so I guess it leads to cheese on crumpets and tea

And colonialism?

And colonialism?At least some of the places concerned were better off under British rule than they are now.
Rhodesia/Zimbawe, anybody?

Maybe it could work. The French Foreign Legion is still existing, so...

Well it's not like they're white or anything.

Do you think that they would care more for - let's say - ukrainian immigrated soldiers than for moroccan immigrated soldiers?
Bad Khadgar: you're suggesting that the Army is racist! Oh my! ;)

That is the problem. Someone should not have to encounter the very real possibility of death to become a citizen.


Well to be fair, theres always the Navy.

To sum it up: Who gives a fuck if immigrate soldiers die?

Personally, I couldn't care less when a soldier dies; they're doing their job, and death is a fairly prominent risk brooked in said job. However, given the importance of public opinion and reaction, and the increasing intrusion of the media into conflicts, the absence if dead from the home country would be no bad thing for the army.

its worked in the UK for decades so I guess it leads to cheese on crumpets and tea

You forget that the Americans lack the key material for this plan to succeed: they dumped the tea into the ocean, and their cheese... well... :p

Personally, I couldn't care less when a soldier dies; they're doing their job, and death is a fairly prominent risk brooked in said job. However, given the importance of public opinion and reaction, and the increasing intrusion of the media into conflicts, the absence if dead from the home country would be no bad thing for the army.

Agreed (if you're talking about a professional soldier, and not of drafted soldiers).

Anyway, it would be far more decent to institute a draft for ALL able US citizens, men and women. Then I guess that the US politicians wouldn't be so keen anymore to vote for muscle policies.

No, but it might be the easiest option. It could come down to: if you fight, you can come in, if you do not fight, you cannot come it.

did you also complain when the military started giving its members educational courses?

And colonialism?

nope.

Well to be fair, theres always the Navy.

don't forget the air force and the army air corps >_>

You forget that the Americans lack the key material for this plan to succeed: they dumped the tea into the ocean, and their cheese... well... :p

they are clearly building up numbers for an invasion of Canada *nods*

Anyway, it would be far more decent to institute a draft for ALL able US citizens, men and women. Then I guess that the US politicians wouldn't be so keen anymore to vote for muscle policies.

you want to send USians into a battlefield?!

If they involve the military? Yes. I do not like the idea of: "Okay, you can live here, but first you have to allow us to toss you in an area full persons shooting at you while you try to kill them." Do not try to compare the military to a regular job; it is not. If someone seriously loves the United States, and is willing die for it, he should join; but if he does not want to bleed and kill, he should not.

And I'll argue that the United States doesn't need to expand the number of people who'd rather send someone ELSE to bleed and kill than go themselves. If you don't love the country enough to face the risk of dying for it, you shouldn't immigrate there... but the societal decay that creates such an opportunity is still there- i.e. offering a shortcut to foreign persons because Americans won't sign up voluntarily and a Draft in non-emergencies is stupid and dangerous.

Britain has used foreign soldiers successfully. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gurkha_Soldier_Monument,_London_-_April_2008.jpg)

Britain has used foreign soldiers successfully. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gurkha_Soldier_Monument,_London_-_April_2008.jpg)

don't be silly we just sorta drop Gurkha's off and they do their own thing

don't be silly we just sorta drop Gurkha's off and they do their own thing

Yeah, I guess it's not quite the same thing.

you want to send USians into a battlefield?!

Yes. As long as the representatives they elected choose to take the USA on the battlefield.

Power comes with responsibility. Or at least, it should.

Yes. As long as the representatives they elected choose to take the USA on the battlefield.

are you suggesting using politicians as officers?!

did you also complain when the military started giving its members educational courses?



nope.



don't forget the air force and the army air corps >_>



they are clearly building up numbers for an invasion of Canada *nods*



you want to send USians into a battlefield?!

Canada would likely give up without a fight. Besides then we would own their debt. Very few people would move up there. Nothing would change. We wouldn't need a passport to cross the border. Hockey would be the same. Beer would flow both ways.

are you suggesting using politicians as officers?!

Politicians should be the scouts.

are you suggesting using politicians as officers?!

That would be overkill. An overkill of US soldiers, I mean.

No, I'm merely suggesting that if one elects a politician who has a trigger-happy attitude towards international issues, he should know that it's his own (and his relatives' and beloved ones') skin he's playing with.

It's too easy to say "Yay war! Let's support Senator Warmonger! Let's invade Dunnowistan! That is, you guys in green invade Dunnowistan..."

Politicians should be the scouts.

"Sir just give me $20 million and 4 years in which to find out where I'm supposed to be patrolling"

That would be overkill. An overkill of US soldiers, I mean.

the politicians wouldn't last too long either

It's too easy to say "Yay war! Let's support Senator Warmonger! Let's invade Dunnowistan! That is, you guys in green invade Dunnowistan..."

I don't think you've met too many combat veterans have you :p