NationStates Jolt Archive

So why do you think Avdullah is doing this? Is he trying to bring Saudi Arabia into the 21st Century or is he trying to appease the people and prevent unrest and a possible threat or overthrow of his rule?
I think it is significant that he is trying to rein in the powerful and feared religious police and appointing a woman to a cabinet position. It is also interesting that “the most powerful cabinet positions of defence, interior, and foreign affairs were unchanged, remaining in the hands of the key princes of the royal family who have held the jobs for decades.”
So, what do you think or do you even care?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090214/wl_mideast_afp/saudipolitics_20090214194621
Saudi king shakes up government
RIYADH (AFP) – King Abdullah on Saturday made sweeping changes to his government, axing the head of the religious police and appointing Saudi Arabia's first-ever woman deputy minister in the biggest shakeup since he took over the throne.
In major changes that appeared to target conservative religious clerics who dominate the judiciary, he also ousted powerful Supreme Judicial Council head Sheikh Saleh al-Luhaidan, whom Saudi activists say had blocked reforms for years.
The changes also include new education, justice, information and health ministers, a new leader of the consultative Shura council, and a new central bank chief.
Analysts said they indicated Abdullah's determination to put his progressive stamp on the country's arch-conservative institutions.
"This is a turning point. It is the biggest change that happened in this country in 20 years," Mohammad al-Zulfa, a member of the Shura council, told AFP.
Norah al-Fayez, currently an official at the Saudi Institute for Public Administration, became the first woman deputy education minister for female education affairs -- the most senior job ever granted to a woman in the Muslim kingdom.
In another major change, Abdullah sacked hardliner Sheikh Ibrahim al-Ghaith, the head of the Muttawa religious police.
Under Ghaith, the Muttawa, who enforce Saudi Arabia's strict-but-eroding Islamic social mores, such as complete separation of unrelated members of the opposite sexes, have been widely feared.
Ghaith was replaced by Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Humain, who quickly gave notice of changes to come.

It seems like King Abdullah's trying to break Saudi Arabia out of its arch-conservative deadlock and indeed catch it up to the 21st century.

to me it seems like he is trying to ensure the ultra religious do not have power. the low oil prices may well lead to unrest and he wants to make sure the group most likely to over throw the country do not have much power.
the problem is this might agitate the ultra religious even more, so we will see.

Good. Conservatism must lose force wherever it is, and religious conservatism, whatever the religion, doubly so!

I'm not sure whether it's going to be amazingly great for "the people" of Saudi. It's the age-old powerplay between the monarchy and religious power. Either way, the people really don't get a say.

It just happens that King Abdullah's machinations are palatable to us this time, because they appear motivated by an urge to reform and 'westernise'. IMO it's more about him strengthening his power base.

Hopefully these reforms keep coming. Treating women like people is good.

I'm not sure whether it's going to be amazingly great for "the people" of Saudi. It's the age-old powerplay between the monarchy and religious power. Either way, the people really don't get a say.

It just happens that King Abdullah's machinations are palatable to us this time, because they appear motivated by an urge to reform and 'westernise'. IMO it's more about him strengthening his power base.

Ataturk seemed to have done fairly well with his Westernization effort, regardless of attempts by religious fundamentalists to turn back the clock.

What is interesting about reform in the middle east, is the (in my opinion, positive) tendency to retain national and social institutions and tend toward moderated change

Good. Conservatism must lose force wherever it is, and religious conservatism, whatever the religion, doubly so!

:rolleyes:

Anyways.

These seem to be some positive changes, though like others have already said, it seems like he may just be trying to strengthen his control. But hey, he's the king. That's what he's supposed to do.

What is interesting about reform in the middle east, is the (in my opinion, positive) tendency to retain national and social institutions and tend toward moderated change

The slower, steadier pace of change is better, it leads to less unrest and instability, which is necessary.

Unfortunately, I think Holy Cheese and Shoes is probably right. It's just palatable political machination.

I always remember the story of asking a Russian diplomat whether gaining access to foreign news through satellite television helped bring the downfall of the USSR, in that the upper middle class gained an alternative opinion to state controlled news.

Actually, he replied, what people saw were the advertisements, cars, television, supermarkets filled with food, it was ironic, he said, that they believed the ads and not the news whereas in the west we believe the news and not the ads.

The people of Saudi Arabia, if not the whole Middle East, cannot deny the freedom afforded to those in the west and, although their religious leaders equate such freedom to sin, people still want it. They can discuss it on the Internet, they can realise they're not alone in wanting it.

So I'd say this is a preservation of power, that if changes are not enacted by the ruling family, changes will be enacted against them.

Dangerous times I think, the religious elite will fight back I'm sure.

*shrugs*

Politics. Undoubtedly all this is being done for reasons that go deeper than anything we can speculate about. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I think it is significant that he is trying to rein in the powerful and feared religious police and appointing a woman to a cabinet position.
[...]
Norah al-Fayez, currently an official at the Saudi Institute for Public Administration, became the first woman deputy education minister for female education affairs -- the most senior job ever granted to a woman in the Muslim kingdom.
At first I thought, "A woman! In the government!", but then I saw the position.

Yeah, that way it's right. Men shouldn't be degraded to having to attend to female affairs.

Meh. :rolleyes:

I suppose they're good, in a superficial, cosmetic and ultimately meaningless way that won't change anything in any way that matters and IMO is probably only being done to make a nice show for gullible Western wannabe-dhimmis and Islamo-Fascist apologists and enablers.

Replacing al-Ghaith with al-Humain strikes me as not much different from replacing Beria with Serov.

Abolishing the Moslem Thought Police altogether would be a step in the right direction, which is why it will never happen.

At first I thought, "A woman! In the government!", but then I saw the position.

Yeah, that way it's right. Men shouldn't be degraded to having to attend to female affairs.

I get your point but it still seems like a step forward that the person responsible for female education is a female.

Islamo-Fascist apologists and enablers.

Hey, everyone! The funny guy that uses "Islamo-Fascist" at the drop of a hat is here! Let's all have a good, hearty laugh!

Hey, everyone! The funny guy that uses "Islamo-Fascist" at the drop of a hat is here! Let's all have a good, hearty laugh!

Maybe he'll call Mecca "Mordor"!

Maybe he'll call Mecca "Mordor"!

And Mohammed "Sauron".:tongue:

Maybe he'll call Mecca "Mordor"!

I wonder if there are any volcanoes in Saudi Arabia...

And Mohammed "Sauron".:tongue:

No sabias, Siete Lunas? Obama és Sauron, para él...

And Mohammed "Sauron".:tongue:

No no no... he's already calling Obama "Sauron." He'll call Muhammed "Saruman".

:D

No no no... he's already calling Obama "Sauron." He'll call Muhammed "Saruman".

:D

That means that Bush was Wormtongue.:eek2:


:p

No no no... he's already calling Obama "Sauron." He'll call Muhammed "Saruman".

:D

But Saruman was the WHITE, not the BROWN.

But Saruman was the WHITE, not the BROWN.

Roflmfao!:D

But Saruman was the WHITE, not the BROWN.

Roflmfao!:D

D'oh! :hail:

But Saruman was the WHITE, not the BROWN.

Radagast the Brown was technically a good guy. Nobody's throwing that name around though.

On that note, I declare myself Gandalf. Nobody's taken that position yet. (Yes, UN forum posters, that does mean there are Inflatable Saevitian Archipelagos floating around. Tell them hi from me.)

D'oh! :hail:

I can't stop laughing now.:D

I am absolutely appalled and disgusted you people would assail the character of one of America's greatest Presidents in its entire history by comparing George W. Bush to Grima Wormtongue.

George W. Bush was NOT Grima Wormtongue. He was Cokey McSnortdrunk, a little known but still pivotal character from Tolkein's work.

The saga of Cokey McSnortdrunk begins at the opening of the 2nd Age of Middle Earth, when the son of a high ranking Hobbit Sheriff went off to Yale University, got both an MBA and high frequently, and joined a secret organization called Skull and Bones. When war broke out with Orcs, Cokey fulfilled his duty to the shire by joining the National Shire Guard, which was nowhere near any actual battles, but came with a great uniform.

Later, Cokey McSnortdrunk found a magical powder...not from the back of Gandalf's wagon, but from a frat buddy of his who knew some black guys from south central Mordor. Cokey had many fantastical adventures, exploring lands far beyond sobriety and bringing back tales of dragons, battle elephants, and waking up in his own vomit behind taverns unheard of by most.

Finally, Cokey got clean, got religion, got elected (sort of), and launched a poorly planned war on Mordor, looking for spells of mass destruction. Unfortunatley, his horseman had no armor, no magic weapons, and no exit plan. So, Cokey McSnortdrunk ended his time as leader of the Shire, leaving far, far more beautiful and totally fucked up than when he found it.

So, show some respect.

That means that Bush was Wormtongue.:eek2:


:p
That I believe. ;)


EDIT: Cokey McSnortdrunk. :D :D If only he had actually been in the books. :D :D You know, instead of our goverment... oh... :(

Anyway, in reference to the OP: This is a bright and good day for Saudi Arabia. Now let's see how dark the rest of the year will be as the reactionaries get fired up.

Actually, he replied, what people saw were the advertisements, cars, television, supermarkets filled with food, it was ironic, he said, that they believed the ads and not the news whereas in the west we believe the news and not the ads.
Uhm, FauX, anyone?

I always remember the story of asking a Russian diplomat whether gaining access to foreign news through satellite television helped bring the downfall of the USSR, in that the upper middle class gained an alternative opinion to state controlled news.

Actually, he replied, what people saw were the advertisements, cars, television, supermarkets filled with food, it was ironic, he said, that they believed the ads and not the news whereas in the west we believe the news and not the ads.


I read that too.
its logical really. news media outlets can be controlled by the government.
But there isn't going to be many adds for cars unless there is a huge market for them.
same with everything.

The house of Saud is trying to curry favour with the new Administration of a very important ally.

It might not be much, nor for the purest of reasons. But a good step is a good step.

At first I thought, "A woman! In the government!", but then I saw the position.

Yeah, that way it's right. Men shouldn't be degraded to having to attend to female affairs.

This is actually a huge step forward symbolically. It shows not only that the king is willing to grant an office to a woman but that he is taking the issue of education for females seriously...

baby steps. At this rate in 20 or 30 years the Saudis may even catch up with the 1950's

Radagast the Brown was technically a good guy. Nobody's throwing that name around though.

On that note, I declare myself Gandalf. Nobody's taken that position yet. (Yes, UN forum posters, that does mean there are Inflatable Saevitian Archipelagos floating around. Tell them hi from me.)

I'll be Tom Bombadill. I'm funny, energetic, and friendly as well as far more useful than I appear; and make an excellent plot device!

EDIT: Cokey McSnortdrunk. :D :D If only he had actually been in the books. :D :D You know, instead of our goverment... oh... :(

That would've been literary gold too. *nod*

As long as sharia remains in force, it's not enough of a change.

Hopefully these reforms keep coming. Treating women like people is good.

In a lot of ways, women are people.