NationStates Jolt Archive

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another? A white lie, is still a lie. The whole this is confusing to be honest, because as children, we're taught to be honest, like the story about George Washington, and yet we're told that it's ok to tell "white" lies because sometimes it's nicer. It's the same way in relationships, especially from women. Women want us guys to be honest, but God forbid we tell you that yes, those pants do make your ass look big.

You can't have it both ways people, either be honest, or lie your ass off. So why is lying sometimes decent? How long do you honestly think you're going to be able to protect someone? Especially when you know someone like me, who is an ass and take joys in telling the brutal truth?

White lies exist primarily because we are emotional beings. We don't want to hurt feelings or be hurt ourselves.

White lies exist primarily because we are emotional beings. We don't want to hurt feelings or be hurt ourselves.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

As we have discovered in another thread. Lying is part of the human condition. I think that there are not many people who will advocate that lying in general is a good thing, and teh majority of us feel guilt when we do it.

But can you imagine the harm, the hurt we would cause others if we never lied, ever, if we spoke the truth all the time no matter what the cost?

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Not all of teh time. Sometime what doesn't kill you remains on your mind and leads to mental health issues.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

I don't think you could possibly have tried harder to make less sense than you did right here.

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another? A white lie, is still a lie. The whole this is confusing to be honest, because as children, we're taught to be honest, like the story about George Washington, and yet we're told that it's ok to tell "white" lies because sometimes it's nicer. It's the same way in relationships, especially from women. Women want us guys to be honest, but God forbid we tell you that yes, those pants do make your ass look big.

You can't have it both ways people, either be honest, or lie your ass off. So why is lying sometimes decent? How long do you honestly think you're going to be able to protect someone? Especially when you know someone like me, who is an ass and take joys in telling the brutal truth?

Because as a general rule, we're empathetic people who don't intentionally want to hurt others feelings, if it can be avoided.

Of course, this is lost on someone who lacks the capacity to have empathy.

Because sometimes people don't wish to hurt others.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Unfortunately, it seems that these days, a majority of people get lost on their way to "stronger" and detour through bitter, angry, and resentful before getting stuck on the petty turnpike for a few hours and ultimately giving up and getting a cheap motel room in the outskirts of Misanthropolis.

Because as a general rule, we're empathetic people who don't intentionally want to hurt others feelings, if it can be avoided.

Of course, this is lost on someone who lacks the capacity to have empathy.

Please, I do have selective empathy. I have empathy for people I care about, just not the human population as a whole. Also the people I care about know that I won't lie to them to "spare" their feelings.

Unfortunately, it seems that these days, a majority of people get lost on their way to "stronger" and detour through bitter, angry, and resentful before getting stuck on the petty turnpike for a few hours and ultimately giving up and getting a cheap motel room in the outskirts of Misanthropolis.

Bwahahahahah! Say, you're a funny person:D

Unfortunately, it seems that these days, a majority of people get lost on their way to "stronger" and detour through bitter, angry, and resentful before getting stuck on the petty turnpike for a few hours and ultimately giving up and getting a cheap motel room in the outskirts of Misanthropolis.

Hey hey....it's not that cheap. :(

Because sometimes people don't wish to hurt others.

But aren't you adding insult to injury by lying?

I have empathy for people I care about,

And "longcat" is quite extended beyond normal parameters.

You're living in 1942 Germany. A couple of people are hiding in your attic with your consent. What do you tell the Gestapo officer?

But aren't you adding insult to injury by lying?

Let me give you an example to illustrate my point. Of course, you are more than welcome to disagree.

Let us say, for example, that you and I know each other. We met at a café and became fast friends. Time passes and you develop feelings, feelings that aren't necessarily of friendship. One day you decide and tell me you have feelings for me. I, not wanting to make you feel bad and hurt you more than what is needed, tell you that I don't feel the same because my life, at the moment, won't allow me to be in a relationship. It's a lie, maybe I'm not interested in you that way. I just don't wish to be too blunt and hurt you. It's bad enough to tell you I can't recirprocate your feelings.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

No, what does not kill me makes me stranger.

No, what does not kill me makes me stranger.

I keep seeing that quote. Who said that?

Let me give you an example to illustrate my point. Of course, you are more than welcome to disagree.

Let us say, for example, that you and I know each other. We met at a café and became fast friends. Time passes and you develop feelings, feelings that aren't necessarily of friendship. One day you decide and tell me you have feelings for me. I, not wanting to make you feel bad and hurt you more than what is needed, tell you that I don't feel the same because my life, at the moment, won't allow me to be in a relationship. It's a lie, maybe I'm not interested in you that way. I just don't wish to be too blunt and hurt you. It's bad enough to tell you I can't recirprocate your feelings.

Yes, but you are leading me on with the whole "at the moment". Sometimes it's better to put an end to all hope than to "spare" feelings, because if you don't you're just giving someone false hope.

Yes, but you are leading me on with the whole "at the moment". Sometimes it's better to put an end to all hope than to "spare" feelings, because if you don't you're just giving someone false hope.

I see your point, but sometimes white lies are unavoidable.

And "longcat" is quite extended beyond normal parameters.

You're living in 1942 Germany. A couple of people are hiding in your attic with your consent. What do you tell the Gestapo officer?

That I have a rat infestation in my attic, but not to worry, I put out traps and sprays.

I see your point, but sometimes white lies are unavoidable.

It doesn't resolve anything though, all it does is lead me on, giving me that false hope of "some day" when in reality, there is no "Some day" and I'd probably never get over my feelings for you because you didn't do such a clean cut. White lies are not unavoidable, they can be avoided, you just have to find the courage to avoid them.

I wish I was able to be completely honest, it would make my life easier. If I were to tell people what I really thought of them.....well, it's socially unacceptable.

Please, I do have selective empathy. I have empathy for people I care about, just not the human population as a whole. Also the people I care about know that I won't lie to them to "spare" their feelings.

I rest my case.

It doesn't resolve anything though, all it does is lead me on, giving me that false hope of "some day" when in reality, there is no "Some day" and I'd probably never get over my feelings for you because you didn't do such a clean cut. White lies are not unavoidable, they can be avoided, you just have to find the courage to avoid them.

Wil, sweetie, white lies are told. Even you tell them, even if you want to pretend you do not.

It doesn't resolve anything though, all it does is lead me on, giving me that false hope of "some day" when in reality, there is no "Some day" and I'd probably never get over my feelings for you because you didn't do such a clean cut.

.....wow. Christ, bitter much?

I keep seeing that quote. Who said that?

Heath Ledger. It's from "The Dark Knight"

Heath Ledger. It's from "The Dark Knight"

Ah. I see. Why didn't I remember it from watching that film?:confused:

Crushing other people's spirits with harsh truths gets immensely tedious once the initial fun has worn off.

So, can I take this thread as implicit permission to flame the christ out of you and all your silly blog threads about how awesome you think The Matrix is or other worthless garbage? Would you rather I lie and say that I respect your opinion and taste, or come right out with the truth, no matter how unbelievably brutal and hurtful it really is?

So, can I take this thread as implicit permission to flame the christ out of you and all your silly blog threads about how awesome you think The Matrix is or other worthless garbage? Would you rather I lie and say that I respect your opinion and taste, or come right out with the truth, no matter how unbelievably brutal and hurtful it really is?

fucking win.

Ah. I see. Why didn't I remember it from watching that film?:confused:

it's from the very beginning:

Oh, criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. Look at you! What do you believe in, huh? What do you believe in-?
[Bozo leans down and sticks a grenade in the manager's mouth]
Bozo: I believe whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...
[takes off his mask]
The Joker: ...stranger.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Unless it takes your legs off in which case it only makes you shorter.

it's from the very beginning:

Oh, criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. Look at you! What do you believe in, huh? What do you believe in-?
[Bozo leans down and sticks a grenade in the manager's mouth]
Bozo: I believe whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...
[takes off his mask]
The Joker: ...stranger.

Now I remember. Thanks.

Wil, sweetie, white lies are told. Even you tell them, even if you want to pretend you do not.

I honestly cannot remember the last "white" lie I told.

.....wow. Christ, bitter much?

It may be bitter, but there is truth in there, not even you can deny that.

Crushing other people's spirits with harsh truths gets immensely tedious once the initial fun has worn off.

That's why you need to find new victims.

So, can I take this thread as implicit permission to flame the christ out of you and all your silly blog threads about how awesome you think The Matrix is or other worthless garbage? Would you rather I lie and say that I respect your opinion and taste, or come right out with the truth, no matter how unbelievably brutal and hurtful it really is?

Well you could, and I would respect you for at least having the...courage to be honest, but I could also report you to the Mods for flaming.

Well you could, and I would respect you for at least having the...courage to be honest, but I could also report you to the Mods for flaming.

In other words, while you are a fierce proponent of honesty over lying, and you would "respect" me, you would seek to have me punished for my honesty? Seems a tad extremely hypocritical of you, Mr. I'm-Always-Brutally-Honest, to report me for flaming for merely being honest with you instead of sugar coating my feelings in little white lies. Surely, if you were as adamant about this position of yours as your laughable tough guy projection would like us to believe, you would commend me for my honesty, regardless of how scathing it might be, instead of running crying to an authority when I hurt your feelings.

I thank you, Wilgrove, for demonstrating in a single sentence exactly why people tell little white lies. You've soundly defeated your own argument.

In other words, while you are a fierce proponent of honesty over lying, and you would "respect" me, you would seek to have me punished for my honesty? Seems a tad extremely hypocritical of you, Mr. I'm-Always-Brutally-Honest, to report me for flaming for merely being honest with you instead of sugar coating my feelings in little white lies. Surely, if you were as adamant about this position of yours as your laughable tough guy projection would like us to believe, you would commend me for my honesty, regardless of how scathing it might be, instead of running crying to an authority when I hurt your feelings.

I thank you, Wilgrove, for demonstrating in a single sentence exactly why people tell little white lies. You've soundly defeated your own argument.

You can be brutally honest without flaming, you said you would flame me, so ergo, you dug your own grave with that. You can be brutally honest, have it sting and still not be flaming. Honesty, like oil painting, like clay working, is an art form. Some people can do it beautifully, others are better off not even trying.

Also, I would not be reporting you because you were honest, I'd be reporting you because you'd be breaking a forum rule and last time I check, flaming is against the forum rules.

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another? A white lie, is still a lie. The whole this is confusing to be honest, because as children, we're taught to be honest, like the story about George Washington, and yet we're told that it's ok to tell "white" lies because sometimes it's nicer. It's the same way in relationships, especially from women. Women want us guys to be honest, but God forbid we tell you that yes, those pants do make your ass look big.

You can't have it both ways people, either be honest, or lie your ass off. So why is lying sometimes decent? How long do you honestly think you're going to be able to protect someone? Especially when you know someone like me, who is an ass and take joys in telling the brutal truth?

it has always been preferable to tell white lies.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Which brilliant philosophical work informed you of that nonsense?

It may be bitter, but there is truth in there, not even you can deny that.


The truth that you are bitter? That was his whole point. You've admitted to being a "bitter a**hole" (your words from your blog that you publicly advertise).

Why would Neo Art need to deny the very point he was making?

Wilgrove is bitter. Not everyone is or acts like Wilgrove.

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "the truth" to one another? Sometimes it is better and easier to lie.


You can't have it both ways people, either be honest, or lie your ass off. So why is lying sometimes decent?

bullshit

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another? A white lie, is still a lie.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_J1qNka6Y2bg/R8cW-EvHgBI/AAAAAAAAABI/y-SKmQcxMyM/s400/house+2+everybody+lies.jpg

You can be brutally honest without flaming, you said you would flame me, so ergo, you dug your own grave with that. You can be brutally honest, have it sting and still not be flaming. Honesty, like oil painting, like clay working, is an art form. Some people can do it beautifully, others are better off not even trying.

Also, I would not be reporting you because you were honest, I'd be reporting you because you'd be breaking a forum rule and last time I check, flaming is against the forum rules.

There's nothing in this post that makes you less of a giant hypocrite, nor is there anything that defeats my point. People avoid telling the truth and prefer telling small lies precisely because of the trouble the truth can often get them in. I'm sure you understand my point and aren't a total moron.

You can be brutally honest without flaming, you said you would flame me, so ergo, you dug your own grave with that. You can be brutally honest, have it sting and still not be flaming. Honesty, like oil painting, like clay working, is an art form. Some people can do it beautifully, others are better off not even trying.

Also, I would not be reporting you because you were honest, I'd be reporting you because you'd be breaking a forum rule and last time I check, flaming is against the forum rules.

and being a dick to those you care about is generally considered against the "rules" of friendship.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"
"No, the fact that you need to lose weight makes you look fat."

vs.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"
"Eh, they aren't my favorite...I'd go with a different pair."

Dick vs. tact.

So why is lying sometimes decent?

It never is.

How long do you honestly think you're going to be able to protect someone?

More importantly, people should not be "protected" with deception. How they react to the truth is their own decision and their own affair, and to paternalistically lie to them "for their own good" is not morally acceptable.

Especially when you know someone like me, who is an ass and take joys in telling the brutal truth?

Ridiculous posturing of this sort suggests to me that neither I nor the friends whom I might be inclined to protect would be inclined to regard your statements as truthful. So this is a non-issue.

Who cares?

[/endthread]

It never is.
Never?

What about the famous mad axeman argument? Isn't it a good thing to lie to the axeman about the location of your friend he's trying to kill?

Heath Ledger. It's from "The Dark Knight"

I'd swear I'd heard it before that.

Has no-one made a racism pun yet? For shame NSG!

I honestly cannot remember the last "white" lie I told.



It may be bitter, but there is truth in there, not even you can deny that.



That's why you need to find new victims.



Well you could, and I would respect you for at least having the...courage to be honest, but I could also report you to the Mods for flaming.
Well then, you certainly seem to want it both ways then. Seems like you're advocating being blunt to the point of hurting someone, but when it hypothetically affects you it's time to run to the mods?

Seems a little hypocritical.

Which brilliant philosophical work informed you of that nonsense?
It probably was immediately followed by the incoherent grunt "OORAH!"

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Not if you ask the Joker.;)

Anyway, I think that their are probably circumstances where it is ethical to tell a lie, to perhaps to respect someone's privacy, or politically, for national security reasons. But it should be done as little as possible. The truth matters.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you Stranger.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l121/sacred_07/Why_So_Serious.jpg

Well then, you certainly seem to want it both ways then. Seems like you're advocating being blunt to the point of hurting someone, but when it hypothetically affects you it's time to run to the mods?

Seems a little hypocritical.


Clearly we need real word mods. Especially since the admins stopped responding.

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another?

It didn't become preferable, nor decent...it's always been that way.

and being a dick to those you care about is generally considered against the "rules" of friendship.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"
"No, the fact that you need to lose weight makes you look fat."

vs.

"Do these pants make me look fat?"
"Eh, they aren't my favorite...I'd go with a different pair."

Dick vs. tact.

I choose tact through and through.

Ah. I see. Why didn't I remember it from watching that film?:confused:

Coz it's been around for many, many, many years.

Coz it's been around for many, many, many years.

Where else has it been quoted?

Where else has it been quoted?

A quick google renders the quotes source as Friedrich Nietzsche.

A quick google renders the quotes source as Friedrich Nietzsche.

Oh, so The Joker quoted Nietzsche.

Since when did it become preferable, even decent for people to tell "white" lies to one another? A white lie, is still a lie. The whole this is confusing to be honest, because as children, we're taught to be honest, like the story about George Washington, and yet we're told that it's ok to tell "white" lies because sometimes it's nicer.
What is this story about Washington, pray tell.
It's the same way in relationships, especially from women. Women want us guys to be honest, but God forbid we tell you that yes, those pants do make your ass look big.
You could have some more decorum about it -_-
You can't have it both ways people, either be honest, or lie your ass off.
You can do both, by my favourite kind of untruth, lying by omission. No lies there. Just not enough truth.
So why is lying sometimes decent? How long do you honestly think you're going to be able to protect someone?
Depends from what you're doing. If the lie is something like "there is a tooth fairy, srsly, they left 50p under your pillow in a matchbox where your tooth was :eek2:", until they work out that this is a brutal sham designed so that parents can sell their childrens' teeth for medical research, s'all good.

"Honestly I didn't give you AIDS" is a bit different, though.
Especially when you know someone like me, who is an ass and take joys in telling the brutal truth?
Meh.
Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.
Get herpes and say that. You're still alive, but it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Lying when expedient, provided it's not massively illegal, is totally acceptable. The art is doing it consistently.

As we have discovered in another thread. Lying is part of the human condition. I think that there are not many people who will advocate that lying in general is a good thing, and teh majority of us feel guilt when we do it.

But can you imagine the harm, the hurt we would cause others if we never lied, ever, if we spoke the truth all the time no matter what the cost?

I cannot say that I NEVER lie, because that in itself would be a lie.

I can say, however, that I am, to the degree that I am intellectually capable, always as honest as I can be when asked a direct question - even when it costs me. And it has at times, cost me plenty.

Lying when expedient, provided it's not massively illegal, is totally acceptable. The art is doing it consistently.

I try to avoid lying because I have a bad memory.

That, and lies weigh on my conscience.

I try to avoid lying because I have a bad memory.

That, and lies weigh on my conscience.

Meh. I've always found the lies that grease the wheels and cogs of life to be preferable to the trouble tha can arise from the truth.

I can say, however, that I am, to the degree that I am intellectually capable, always as honest as I can be when asked a direct question - even when it costs me. And it has at times, cost me plenty.
As I have said above, there does seem to be, however, instances where it seems not only pragmatic, but morally right, to lie.

Lying to protect your friend from a mad assailant seems perfectly reasonable.

As I have said above, there does seem to be, however, instances where it seems not only pragmatic, but morally right, to lie.

Lying to protect your friend from a mad assailant seems perfectly reasonable.
yes but how many times have you lied to protect someone from a mad assailant?

yes but how many times have you lied to protect someone from a mad assailant?
None from a mad assailant, though I've lied to protect someone from those who'd wish to cause them harm before.

My point is, a blanket 'ban' on lying seems rather silly.

None from a mad assailant, though I've lied to protect someone from those who'd wish to cause them harm before.

My point is, a blanket 'ban' on lying seems rather silly.
aye.

its silly and its useless.

the more ..... interesting?... problem is to sort the ok lies from the not-ok lies. when does going with our instinct to evade or outright lie become destructive and when does it merely grease the wheels of society?

I almost never lie, not even the little white ones. I do find the diplomatic way to tell people the truth though.

Isn't it a good thing to lie to the axeman about the location of your friend he's trying to kill?

Maybe. But not for the sake of being nice to the axeman.

Who cares?

[/endthread]
It wasn't particularly brilliant, and you're particularly new. So, no. Just no.

Clearly we need real word mods. Especially since the admins stopped responding.
Clearly that's what I was saying. All bow down to our mod overlords.

Or maybe I was saying that being a hard-ass and "telling the brutal truth" to others = good and having others tell the truth as they see it to you = bad, let's run report them! is pretty hypocritical.

Ahh, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.The Hormetic Principle?
As it turns out, almost everything that doesn't kill you at first kills you over time while the more obvious parts of you resist.
Is this just one of those white lies you're talking about, to make us feel better about suffering?