NationStates Jolt Archive

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

Meh, I've always been forced to lie in order to spare people's "feelings". That was boring, so I just started telling people the truth regardless of their "feelings". People now hate me and would rather remain ignorant that they're fat, or they're whores, or the fact that their husband or wives go see whores because they're fat.

I invented sex. :cool:

I invented sex. :cool:

So you're Adam...

That depends. Society forces you to lie about some things: that's called politeness ("No, you look fine, honey", "Oh, I could never accept cash from a stranger"). Society forces you not to lie about some other things: that's called honesty ("I did not steal millions of dollars from my shareholders", "She said she was 18"). And society highly suggests you don't talk about a third class of things because it really doesn't want to know ("I masturbate to cockroach porn").

Meh, I've always been forced to lie in order to spare people's "feelings". That was boring, so I just started telling people the truth regardless of their "feelings". People now hate me and would rather remain ignorant that they're fat, or they're whores, or the fact that their husband or wives go see whores because they're fat.

wait, Wilgrove is insulting someone's looks and sexual practices?

....nah, this one is too easy.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

a person lies for several reasons:

1. self-protection. they don't want to get in trouble.
2. to manipulate the opinions of others, in order to make him/herself look good
3. to control others by falsifying information, and causing them to make poor evaluations about people or situations.

Nope - society doesn't do that. 'Twas a time when someone who was a known liar could be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail, in a severe enough case.

People lie because it benefits them. If it didn't, they would stop.

So you're Adam...

Adam stole the patent. :mad:

I invented sex. :cool:

I invented orgasms.

wait, Wilgrove is insulting someone's looks and sexual practices?

....nah, this one is too easy.

Something flies over Neo's head again? Wow...shocking. Please I'm not that cruel, if they ask for my opinion then yea, I will give it to them, but I don't go around being an ass for no purpose.

That depends. Society forces you to lie about some things: that's called politeness ("No, you look fine, honey", "Oh, I could never accept cash from a stranger"). Society forces you not to lie about some other things: that's called honesty ("I did not steal millions of dollars from my shareholders", "She said she was 18"). And society highly suggests you don't talk about a third class of things because it really doesn't want to know ("I masturbate to cockroach porn").


I don't lie for the sake of being polite: I tell the truth, but politely, with respect to (more or less) not ripping the rug out from someone. "That color doesn't really suit you - you'd look better in blue." as opposed to "You look fine, honey".

Society's demand that we tell the truth under certain situations but not in others is asinine, imho.

Something flies over Neo's head again?

it's....cute, that you think you could manage that.

People lie because it benefits them. If it didn't, they would stop.

But I'm talking about peer pressures (basically). As a teen growing up, how many times is said teen forced to lie, just to fit in with their peers? Hell, same thing happens with adults too. Isn't that society shaping people? "You need to be this way"?

But I'm talking about peer pressures (basically). As a teen growing up, how many times is said teen forced to lie, just to fit in with their peers? Hell, same thing happens with adults too. Isn't that society shaping people? "You need to be this way"?

Only if they're spineless wimps who think they need friends, or social contacts.

Only if they're spineless wimps who think they need friends, or social contacts.

There's a lot of those out there...

I'm not sure it's society, we're programmed to deceive as are other animals.

Due to this programming, we have a society where lying is prevalent.

But I'm talking about peer pressures (basically). As a teen growing up, how many times is said teen forced to lie, just to fit in with their peers? Hell, same thing happens with adults too. Isn't that society shaping people? "You need to be this way"?

I think it's a bit of both no? The rational reason to lie is motivated self interest. But the circumstances that come about in which it is advantageous to lie are often social constructs.

You lie about being more promiscuous because it helps you fit into a social circle (rational self interest), but that only helps because the social circle values promiscuity (social construction)

Only if they're spineless wimps who think they need friends, or social contacts.

*sings*

A winters day
In a deep and dark december;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Ive built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.

But I'm talking about peer pressures (basically). As a teen growing up, how many times is said teen forced to lie, just to fit in with their peers? Hell, same thing happens with adults too. Isn't that society shaping people? "You need to be this way"?

BAH! As soon as someone says, "You need to be this way," the polite reply is, "Why - are you uncomfortable with me as I am?"

Cuz, if they answer "yes," then the reply is,"Tough"
If the answer is "No," then the reply is "then I don't need to be any way other than the way I am."

Peers pressure us into doing wrong things - because we, as individuals, often don't have the personal confidence to say, "no."

I fell into the "you need to be this way" trap as an adult - and I was miserable. As a kid, I didn't care what people thought of me, and I was a fine sight happier for it. I'm recapturing that mindset now - and if someone tells me I "need" to be a certain way, unless they're talking about safety issues, I do not have to jump through hoops to please them.

(No, I don't get invited out much - thanks for asking!!)

*sings*

A winters day
In a deep and dark december;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Ive built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.

*puts a $1 in your cup* Nice, but don't quit your day job.

*puts a $1 in your cup* Nice, but don't quit your day job.

Methinks you missed the point.

I'm bummed: this is going to be a great discussion, but I must be off to Slumberland!:mad:

looking forward to everyone's insights. tomorrow.

...we're programmed to deceive...

Man, after I wrote that, I was all, where have I heard that before...

We are programmed to receive.
You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave

Ah yes, the Anthem of NSG>

Only if they're spineless wimps who think they need friends, or social contacts.

Exactly.

Real men don't need friends or social contacts. They just need to know where all of their enemies are. And some ammo.

Methinks you missed the point.

I already got one person who's trying to make points with me in real life, I don't need some lawyer in Boston doing the same. She apparently doesn't give up on me so easily.

I already got one person who's trying to make points with me in real life, I don't need some lawyer in Boston doing the same. She apparently doesn't give up on me so easily.

tell her to go fuck herself. Real men don't need friends or social contacts, remember?

Yay, a good old bitchslap fest between Neo Art and Wilgrove, haven't seen one of these in like, amm, what, 16 hours?

Exactly.

Real men don't need friends or social contacts. They just need to know where all of their enemies are. And some ammo.

Ammo is optional if you're Jack Bauer.

tell her to go fuck herself. Real men don't need friends or social contacts, remember?

Yea, but she's actually good for me, and supports my ass-ery. For some reason she finds it funny most of the time. Beside, if your friends forces you to lie, then are they really friends, or are they're just a bunch of dicks?

Yay, a good old bitchslap fest between Neo Art and Wilgrove, haven't seen one of these in like, amm, what, 16 hours?

What can I say, I try to get out, but he keeps pulling me back in. It's like Hotel California meets Fire Island.

Ammo is optional if you're Jack Bauer.

You can never have too much ammo.

So you're Adam...

In the Adam and Eve scenario, would not this guy have invented sex?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg/250px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

Only if they're spineless wimps who think they need friends, or social contacts.

Humans are social creatures, you know.

So you're Adam...

I won't lie. I fucking hate Biblical references, I usually delete any songs I have with any, with the exception of a certain artist.

I hate every time I hear someone try to force their morals down others throats, Christian or otherwise.

But most of all, I hate everything about the Bible, and the ardent followers, I doubt I could ever truely be a friend with a Christian without some prejudice on my part.

Oh wait, yeah, I tend to lie if it makes it easier for me and so people don't change their view of me, because of some crap reason; see the second paragraph. However, I'm usually pretty honest with friends, brutally so if need be, because they're the same with me.

I won't lie. I fucking hate Biblical references, I usually delete any songs I have with any, with the exception of a certain artist.

I hate every time I hear someone try to force their morals down others throats, Christian or otherwise.

But most of all, I hate everything about the Bible, and the ardent followers, I doubt I could ever truely be a friend with a Christian without some prejudice on my part.

Oh wait, yeah, I tend to lie if it makes it easier for me and so people don't change their view of me, because of some crap reason; see the second paragraph. However, I'm usually pretty honest with friends, brutally so if need be, because they're the same with me.

I was making a joke...but thanks for the overkill there...

I won't lie. I fucking hate Biblical references, I usually delete any songs I have with any, with the exception of a certain artist.

I hate every time I hear someone try to force their morals down others throats, Christian or otherwise.

But most of all, I hate everything about the Bible, and the ardent followers, I doubt I could ever truely be a friend with a Christian without some prejudice on my part.

Tangent +10

I was making a joke...but thanks for the overkill there...

No problem.:)

Tangent + 10

Is that some sort of maths joke?

Is that some sort of maths joke?

This just calls for a hurricane of math-related puns that will leave veteran NSers shaking their heads, using words like "cosine" and "fractal" and "multiply".

By making this meta-reference I have hopefully been able to head off such a monstrosity. It's a reflex.

Humans are social creatures, you know.

I have evolved past such primitive Concepts.....

Is that some sort of maths joke?

More of an internet joke. You kinda went on a tangent about hating Christians on a very minor religious reference that wasn't even directed at you.

So I gave you +10 Tangent-ness.

I have evolved past such primitive Concepts.....

And now you form a Collective of One, which will un-assimilate everyone else's technological and biological distinctiveness.

To be honest, it somehow lacks the punch of the better staffed examples. "I am the Borg Collective! Now go away and leave me alone so I can listen to depressing music."

No. I can tell this because there are people who don't use drugs or alcohol, make up successes or "conquests", or try to cover up past "shameful acts". Many--probably most--of us CHOOSE to lie at least sometimes, but society does not force us to do it.

But I'm talking about peer pressures (basically). As a teen growing up, how many times is said teen forced to lie, just to fit in with their peers? Hell, same thing happens with adults too. Isn't that society shaping people? "You need to be this way"?

Again, not "forced". Many kids lie to fit in. Some of us don't, and spend our recesses getting in fistfights. I'm not advocating either approach, I'm just saying that it varies.

No. I can tell this because there are people who don't use drugs or alcohol, make up successes or "conquests", or try to cover up past "shameful acts". Many--probably most--of us CHOOSE to lie at least sometimes, but society does not force us to do it.

But If they did do those things, would not Society force consequences to those who own up to it?

EDIT: Or even force them to feel as if there is something to own up to for doing those things?

But If they did do those things, would not Society force consequences to those who own up to it?

Yes. Some people choose to deal with the consequences of what they do and how they behave.

Yes. Some people choose to deal with the consequences of what they do and how they behave.

But is not the threat of Consequences Society telling them that they should lie?

Meh, I've always been forced to lie in order to spare people's "feelings". That was boring, so I just started telling people the truth regardless of their "feelings". People now hate me and would rather remain ignorant that they're fat, or they're whores, or the fact that their husband or wives go see whores because they're fat.

If people would rather remain ignorant then the decent thing to do is to let them remain ignorant.

But is not the threat of Consequences Society telling them that they should lie?

Telling them? Possibly. Forcing them? No. When I catch one of my five-year-old students drawing on the table/throwing something at another person/climbing on the furniture, and that student tells me someone else "made me do it!" I don't accept that as an answer. They mostly know now not to even try it, because that other person didn't "make" you do anything--you chose your action. If my five-year-olds can learn this, adults can, too.

If people would rather remain ignorant then the decent thing to do is to let them remain ignorant.

You mean there's a difference between being an honest person and living in an honest way and just being rude and insulting to people?

*jots this down*

If my five-year-olds can learn this, adults can, too.

I think you give Adults Waaaaay to much credit, lol:p

Telling them? Possibly. Forcing them? No. When I catch one of my five-year-old students drawing on the table/throwing something at another person/climbing on the furniture, and that student tells me someone else "made me do it!" I don't accept that as an answer. They mostly know now not to even try it, because that other person didn't "make" you do anything--you chose your action.

To be more serious...

I think the question is more directed towards more innocent acts, say there was a gay guy, and this gay guy is asked if he is gay, now, he has the option of remaining in the closet and lying, or telling everyone and ending up ridiculed, being fired, attacked, etc...

Is not the Society forcing him to lie?

If people would rather remain ignorant then the decent thing to do is to let them remain ignorant.

Why does it seem like lying is the more "decent' thing to do than telling the truth? See, this is what creates politicians. You tell your kid to always tell the truth, but "white" lies are ok. Face it, a lie is a lie, it doesn't have any color or special meaning to it. A "white" lie is still a lie.

You mean there's a difference between being an honest person and living in an honest way and just being rude and insulting to people?

*jots this down*

Most people can't live in denial, they can't afford it.

Most people can't live in denial, they can't afford it.

I know, it's like the highest-rent district around. Studio apartments alone cost at least twice as much. The schools are good, though.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't turn the question on its head?

Does our tendency to lie affect the society we make?

The act of lying has survived far longer than any society has. Our societies, cultures and histories would be very different if we were incapable of lying. For one thing, there would be no such thing as fiction.

We are all inherent liars, so the lying must be examined by degrees. Generally speaking, cultural mores might affect the issues on which we choose to lie, but I don't believe they make us lie more or less than we would naturally.

Hair dye, contact lenses, padded shoulders, wonderbra, waist support, socks in pants, support stockings, elevator shoes, knock-off fashion, and on and on...

force isn't exactly the word. that depends on your priorities and attachments.
an awful lot of what the dominant culture romanticizes and what it ostracizes ARE completely bassakwards though.

pressure in the sense of coercion, for anyone who wants to avoid being socially and economically discriminated against (i.e. wants to get paid and get laid). utterly and tyrannically yes.

even some of what it takes to stay out of trouble, i mean to maintain reasonably good odds of doing so, to ovoid giving offense and so on, yes, the dominant culture in the u.s. very much coerces people into deceiving not only each other, but also to a degree few realize because we've become so used to it, themselves.

the dominant culture of course also comes from ourselves, all of us together rather then individually though.

if there's one thing that steers the direction in which a culture evolves that is its mythose. its story telling. and in america, as in now i would imagine much of the world, even that is driven by economic intrests to the detriment of real people, places and things.

to say that we are all INHEIRENT liars, may be the biggest lie of all, or certainly one of them.
enculturation isn't instinct. and that IS an enculturation factor, NOT a biological one.

There's a lot of those out there...
Most of the human species, in fact.
tell her to go fuck herself. Real men don't need friends or social contacts, remember?

Kill her. Real men solve their problems with violence :)

I rarely lie, but I am sure that when I do I do it for the same reasons anyone else does; with the exception of looking better in other people's opinions of me. I'm not going to lie to convince someone to change their opinion.

BAH! As soon as someone says, "You need to be this way," the polite reply is, "Why - are you uncomfortable with me as I am?"

Cuz, if they answer "yes," then the reply is,"Tough"
If the answer is "No," then the reply is "then I don't need to be any way other than the way I am."

Peers pressure us into doing wrong things - because we, as individuals, often don't have the personal confidence to say, "no."

I fell into the "you need to be this way" trap as an adult - and I was miserable. As a kid, I didn't care what people thought of me, and I was a fine sight happier for it. I'm recapturing that mindset now - and if someone tells me I "need" to be a certain way, unless they're talking about safety issues, I do not have to jump through hoops to please them.

(No, I don't get invited out much - thanks for asking!!)

So what exactly happens if I say you need to be your own person and not be one of the 'need to be's'

It does, but I wouldn't blame it entirely. We also have something called 'choice' at our disposal.

It does, but I wouldn't blame it entirely. We also have something called 'choice' at our disposal.

No we don't, there is only peer pressure, if you make a choice than you are either conforming with one group or conforming with another. Its best to not conform and not make a choice... but dammit that's also conforming!

No we don't, there is only peer pressure, if you make a choice than you are either conforming with one group or conforming with another. Its best to not conform and not make a choice... but dammit that's also conforming!

Although peer pressure is part and parcel of soceity, it's not the norm. If your buddies are smoking and they offer you a cigarette, you have the choice of saying "Sure, I'll smoke too!" or "No thanks." I know this is an over-simplification, but it kind of illustrates the point.:tongue:

No we don't, there is only peer pressure, if you make a choice than you are either conforming with one group or conforming with another. Its best to not conform and not make a choice... but dammit that's also conforming!

I'm going to non-conform by stuffing myself with sunflower seeds while singing along to popular songs from the mid-50s.

I'm going to non-conform by stuffing myself with sunflower seeds while singing along to popular songs from the mid-50s.

You are my hero, Iffy.:hail:

Although peer pressure is part and parcel of soceity, it's not the norm. If your buddies are smoking and they offer you a cigarette, you have the choice of saying "Sure, I'll smoke too!" or "No thanks." I know this is an over-simplification, but it kind of illustrates the point.:tongue:

But if you say no you are only conforming with all those targeted anti-smoking adds!

Ok, I have no clue what started the conformity rant but I am stopping it right now; its just silly, even for me.

You are my hero, Iffy.:hail:

*wonders what his job description is*

But if you say no you are only conforming with all those targeted anti-smoking adds!

Ok, I have no clue what started the conformity rant but I am stopping it right now; its just silly, even for me.

I don't see it that way, but it's fine.:tongue:

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

It's purely subjective, some people may feel pressured to lie, some may not.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?
societal pressure has nothing to do with it. we are hardwired to be liars. it is to our great advantage to lie and we do it constantly.

even chimpanzees lie.

Deceit is the art of warfare, everything relies on tricking your enemy. In our less destructive worlds deceit is used in fear of embarressment or shame when you're not sure how the other person will react. Or in some cases to improve our own self-esteem. Although it's far healthier to not have to lie all the time.
If you have to lie to people around you alot about your real intentions, there is a high probability that you will want to leave that place...

societal pressure has nothing to do with it. we are hardwired to be liars. it is to our great advantage to lie and we do it constantly.

even chimpanzees lie.

I don't want to be a prick, but source? This intrigues me that everyone is saying that we are hardwired to lie. If that were the case, then we really don't have the choice of whether we want to lie or not.

Or maybe we are hardwired from birth because we are taught to be the best that we can be...? That would go back to societal views again.

I don't want to be a prick, but source? This intrigues me that everyone is saying that we are hardwired to lie. If that were the case, then we really don't have the choice of whether we want to lie or not.

Or maybe we are hardwired from birth because we are taught to be the best that we can be...? That would go back to societal views again.
no we are born liars. personally i think that if chimps are liars it proves that its natural for us to be liars too.

no we are born liars. personally i think that if chimps are liars it proves that its natural for us to be liars too.

I'm really curious about these chimps being liars. I never heard such a thing before...

I'm really curious about these chimps being liars. I never heard such a thing before...

I can't source it right now coz I can't remember when or where I got it from. But there is at least one study that I am aware of that tells how chimps use deception by hiding food from the rest of the group, or turning way to eat and pretending they have none, by avioding other members of the group when they have food in their hands even hiding it behind their back if it is a faveorite bit.

Why does it seem like lying is the more "decent' thing to do than telling the truth? See, this is what creates politicians. You tell your kid to always tell the truth, but "white" lies are ok. Face it, a lie is a lie, it doesn't have any color or special meaning to it. A "white" lie is still a lie.


Telling the truth is better than lying. But one has to weigh up that advantage (truth>lying) with other things in life.

For example, say a friend has cancer. The doctors say survival is 70/30 against. The cancer striken friend turns to you and goes "do you think I'm going to make it?".

Now, you've just heard that the chances are that your friend is going to die. The correct answer is "Absolutely. You just hang in there and keep fighting."

The calculations involved are this.
Sum1: Truth>Lie
Sum2: Not completely deflating your friend who needs all the support he can get > Completely deflating your friend who needs all the support he can get.
Sum 3: The amount of diffference involved in sum 2 > The amount of difference involved in sum 1.

Truth is good, but sometimes you have to make compromises.

If you think otherwise then fine, but don't whine when people want to be around people who don't call them ugly and critisise them and bring them down. You have your approach and they have theirs.

Maybe a little lieing is necessary, but you can do quite well just by withholding information.

A lot of people do lie a lot, but they're usually lieing to themselves as much as others.

Of course, some people actually want lies, such as job interviewers or women asking about their appearance. This can take some getting used to for those of us who are not natural liars.

I'm really curious about these chimps being liars. I never heard such a thing before...
amazingly enough i found the article online that i read in the magazine when it came out.

its all i know about lying.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7690037/scientific-american-mind-the-joys-of-telling-lies

Depends what you mean by lying and for what reason.

Lie verbally for the purpose of boasting and ego? No, I certainly don't do that, I haven't the self esteem to create nonsense shit to make me look awesome.

On the other hand, at a lower level, altering your behaviour and what you say in an attempt to make your peers think better of you? That sort of low-level constant activity counts as lying to yourself and denying who you are. Depends on what you count as lying I guess

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

Society gives us excuses for white lies, which is not the same as making us do it.

People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example)

Actually, something like that isn't a white lie. A white lie is "No honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat." a white lie is something very small and effectively harmless (harmless in a relative sense). Minors lying to parents about harmful illegal activity fall well outside white lies.

Though yes, in general I agree with you that society does tend to lead us to lie. Clinton for example felt unable to admit to having smoke pot, regardless of whether or not he actually inhaled is regardless, to him having done it. It wasn't good that he did it, but the past is the past, and thats over with. I can respect Obama for not running from his past in that regard, and the same for Bush with the DWI incident that Gore tried to hold over him in the 2000 election, so, hopefully the trend of personal dishonesty can be slowly put to rest.

Actually, something like that isn't a white lie. A white lie is "No honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat." a white lie is something very small and effectively harmless (harmless in a relative sense). Minors lying to parents about harmful illegal activity fall well outside white lies.

Though yes, in general I agree with you that society does tend to lead us to lie. Clinton for example felt unable to admit to having smoke pot, regardless of whether or not he actually inhaled is regardless, to him having done it. It wasn't good that he did it, but the past is the past, and thats over with. I can respect Obama for not running from his past in that regard, and the same for Bush with the DWI incident that Gore tried to hold over him in the 2000 election, so, hopefully the trend of personal dishonesty can be slowly put to rest.

I doubt it. Palin's website was quite open about her use of marijuana, until she suddenly got a VP pick.

I don't want to be a prick, but source? This intrigues me that everyone is saying that we are hardwired to lie. If that were the case, then we really don't have the choice of whether we want to lie or not.

We're "hardwired" to do a lot of things--kill the young of our competitors, engage in sexual acts with any available individual (or groups of them! even our relatives!), scratch our asses in public... we don't do most of these. "Instinct" is not equivalent to a lack of choice.

no we are born liars. personally i think that if chimps are liars it proves that its natural for us to be liars too.

Chimps also throw shit at people because they don't like being watched (understandable). Does that make it natural for people to do?

Even if it makes it natural, does it make it desirable or good?

So what exactly happens if I say you need to be your own person and not be one of the 'need to be's'

smart aleck....


actually, however, if you said that to me, my first thought would be, "why did he say that?"

Cuz, in my experience, the people who are most likely to tell you me that I need to be ANYTHING already have it in their head what that should look like.

Even in saying "you need to be your own person," they have an idea in their head what that should look like. The end result is: they only want me to be "my own person" when it is the person they want me to be.

"Need to be" is the issue, not actually "being," if you get my meaning.

People who want - ( request, demand, or insist) others "be" something - anything - even "themselves" - actually have some expectation of what that should be. If they don't see what they expect to see, they start w/ the criticizing, (usually labeled "advice"), then move to "trying to help" (telling you what to do), to "I was just sharing w/ your what I thought (translate - I am telling you who I NEED you to be). And that's when the Silver Streak collides w/ the station, and it gets that weird "grin" on the front of the engine...

Deceit is the art of warfare, everything relies on tricking your enemy. In our less destructive worlds deceit is used in fear of embarressment or shame when you're not sure how the other person will react. Or in some cases to improve our own self-esteem. Although it's far healthier to not have to lie all the time.
If you have to lie to people around you alot about your real intentions, there is a high probability that you will want to leave that place...

...unless you are also lying to yourself about your intent, motivations and desires.

I know several people who do that; a friend of mine calls it "rewriting their memories." They will say one thing, and if they are ever questioned on it, they will give a somewhat supportable excuse as to why they do (or say) what they do (or say). I know a young woman who hangs out w/ someone who may actually be certifiably insane, and every time she complains about her "friend," I ask her why she hangs around the loon, and her response is something like, "I don't hang around her that much; she's been calling me a lot lately, and I don't know how to get rid of her." Of course, not answering the phone would be a great method... but if this is pointed out to her (which I did), there's another excuse ("But then she just keeps calling!")

The people to whom any individual lies to the most is him/herself, unless they commit to not lying, and admit when someone catches them in a lie. Otherwise, a person - not society - creates the reliance on lying, just so that they can live with themselves.

smart aleck....


actually, however, if you said that to me, my first thought would be, "why did he say that?"

Cuz, in my experience, the people who are most likely to tell you me that I need to be ANYTHING already have it in their head what that should look like.

Even in saying "you need to be your own person," they have an idea in their head what that should look like. The end result is: they only want me to be "my own person" when it is the person they want me to be.

"Need to be" is the issue, not actually "being," if you get my meaning.

People who want - ( request, demand, or insist) others "be" something - anything - even "themselves" - actually have some expectation of what that should be. If they don't see what they expect to see, they start w/ the criticizing, (usually labeled "advice"), then move to "trying to help" (telling you what to do), to "I was just sharing w/ your what I thought (translate - I am telling you who I NEED you to be). And that's when the Silver Streak collides w/ the station, and it gets that weird "grin" on the front of the engine...

I was simply curious; and FYI when I say someone needs to be their own person I'm actually just kind of saying "Do what you want"

Telling the truth is better than lying. But one has to weigh up that advantage (truth>lying) with other things in life.

For example, say a friend has cancer. The doctors say survival is 70/30 against. The cancer striken friend turns to you and goes "do you think I'm going to make it?".

Now, you've just heard that the chances are that your friend is going to die. The correct answer is "Absolutely. You just hang in there and keep fighting."

The calculations involved are this.
Sum1: Truth>Lie
Sum2: Not completely deflating your friend who needs all the support he can get > Completely deflating your friend who needs all the support he can get.
Sum 3: The amount of diffference involved in sum 2 > The amount of difference involved in sum 1.

Truth is good, but sometimes you have to make compromises.

If you think otherwise then fine, but don't whine when people want to be around people who don't call them ugly and critisise them and bring them down. You have your approach and they have theirs.

But why lie when the truth is so much better - "I don't know."

Easy. to the point. 100% honest - and it doesn't create any false hopes, nor does it crush a person's spirit.

We're "hardwired" to do a lot of things--kill the young of our competitors, engage in sexual acts with any available individual (or groups of them! even our relatives!), scratch our asses in public... we don't do most of these. "Instinct" is not equivalent to a lack of choice.



Chimps also throw shit at people because they don't like being watched (understandable). Does that make it natural for people to do?

Even if it makes it natural, does it make it desirable or good?
i dont know about good or bad. i only know that its not society that forces us to do it. we are natural liars.

Depends what you mean by lying and for what reason.

Lie verbally for the purpose of boasting and ego? No, I certainly don't do that, I haven't the self esteem to create nonsense shit to make me look awesome.

On the other hand, at a lower level, altering your behaviour and what you say in an attempt to make your peers think better of you? That sort of low-level constant activity counts as lying to yourself and denying who you are. Depends on what you count as lying I guess

Is it "denying" who you are, or simply choosing a particular part of your personality to present, in that environment?

I have to do that at work, ALL the time (and I do mean ALL - from the moment I get there to the moment I clock out). I have to choose to present myself as cordial, (which I really am), helpful, (which I usually am), and generally 'happy' (which isn't always true, based on immediate circumstances, like last week, when I got this nasty infection in my toe, and it really hurt, and every time I walked on it... never mind!!:) but you get my point, I hope).

I'm not lying about who I am - those qualities are all a very real part of my person. But I am choosing to NO show my pain, or my frustration, or my anger or whatever (I work w/ the public, and BOY do some of those people get annoying!!!!!!!!!).

I don't think choosing to present one part of yourself vs. another part is "lying".

No. Don't do the wrong thing and if you do, take responsibility be contrite and own up to it. And if you think you are doing the right thing argue your point and try to convince others you're right. Unless of course you're breaking the law. Then argue you're point in front of a judge and to your cell mates.

In other words, be a man not a weasel.

We're "hardwired" to do a lot of things--kill the young of our competitors, engage in sexual acts with any available individual (or groups of them! even our relatives!), scratch our asses in public... we don't do most of these. "Instinct" is not equivalent to a lack of choice.



Chimps also throw shit at people because they don't like being watched (understandable). Does that make it natural for people to do?

Even if it makes it natural, does it make it desirable or good?


S M A C Kdown!!!

Excellent answer: very good points!

I was simply curious; and FYI when I say someone needs to be their own person I'm actually just kind of saying "Do what you want"

some people are like you; they sincerely want to get to know a person, and are happy to let others be "who they are," warts and all.

That's about 3% of the population. We are in the minority; always good to meet another realist!

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

It tries too

I think the problem is that we, as a society, can't handle the truth.

Hypothetically, if I were to interview for a job and were to admit having tried drugs, even if it was several years ago I could be disqualified on that basis alone. Is that fair? No. And so people in such a position simply lie to protect themselves from the inevitable overreaction.

I once had a close friend who reacted so badly that I hid the truth from him once, about a matter that didn't even have anything to do with him, that he terminated our friendship right on the spot. Mind you, my hiding the truth was in reaction to his asking questions of me that weren't even any of his business.

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"
Sure, as long as it doesn't make me violate my 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination. Funny how that doesn't get mentioned.

"Anything you say can and will be used against you..."
Not much of an inducement to get me to open up, is it?

I once sat for a job interview in which I had to take a test asking all sorts of questions like "If you saw your mother shoplifting, would you report her?"

I told the truth and said no. For that reason I lost the job. Can you imagine? Who on earth would? Probably nobody, but the people who were rewarded with the job were the ones who lied and said that yes, they would. Yet, this was supposed to be a test to gauge your personal integrity...

We SAY we just want the truth but how often is that really true? The truth can be messy. It can be unpleasant. It can be difficult to deal with. Lies smooth things over, they grease the wheels. Our whole criminal justice system is based upon the assumption that people lie in their own best interest. We try to protect ourselves from dishonesty but the fact is we can't possibly know who's honest and who isn't just from an interview, or a test, or a series of questions.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

Life does not force us to lie. Lying is wickedness. There is no excuse for it.

I think the problem is that we, as a society, can't handle the truth.

Hypothetically, if I were to interview for a job and were to admit having tried drugs, even if it was several years ago I could be disqualified on that basis alone. Is that fair? No. And so people in such a position simply lie to protect themselves from the inevitable overreaction.

I once had a close friend who reacted so badly that I hid the truth from him once, about a matter that didn't even have anything to do with him, that he terminated our friendship right on the spot. Mind you, my hiding the truth was in reaction to his asking questions of me that weren't even any of his business.

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"
Sure, as long as it doesn't make me violate my 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination. Funny how that doesn't get mentioned.

"Anything you say can and will be used against you..."
Not much of an inducement to get me to open up, is it?

I once sat for a job interview in which I had to take a test asking all sorts of questions like "If you saw your mother shoplifting, would you report her?"

I told the truth and said no. For that reason I lost the job. Can you imagine? Who on earth would? Probably nobody, but the people who were rewarded with the job were the ones who lied and said that yes, they would. Yet, this was supposed to be a test to gauge your personal integrity...

We SAY we just want the truth but how often is that really true? The truth can be messy. It can be unpleasant. It can be difficult to deal with. Lies smooth things over, they grease the wheels. Our whole criminal justice system is based upon the assumption that people lie in their own best interest. We try to protect ourselves from dishonesty but the fact is we can't possibly know who's honest and who isn't just from an interview, or a test, or a series of questions.

Your friend had every right to terminate your friendship for lying. Why should he trust a liar like you?

The Fifth Amendment is designed to protect you from self incrimination. You are not lying when you assert your rights and refuse to answer a self incriminating question.

You do not need to people secrets but you should not lie about it. It is ok to not answer questions.

If someone asked you if you would turn your mom in for shoplifting and held your answer against you, that is plain nuts on their part. Are you sure that is the only reason? I think a better response would be. "I would lose a lot of respect for my mother if I saw her shoplifting. However, I could never report my mother to law enforcement. I would certainly talk to my mother about the incident and encourage her to return the stolen property." This would have been a far better response than a simple yes or no answer. Nobody wants yes or no answers in an interview.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit?
No, it doesn't. Just because you lie doesn't mean you have to.


A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.
There's a choice not to take drugs or not to drink, or not to make shameful acts, and be a boring stereotypical librarian person. And talking of your past "conquests" in the bedroom is impolite anyway.


I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?
Birth has nothing to do with it. Some people just learn to lie over the time.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

Yes society forces you to lie. The only way you can lie is to other people. Otherwise it is some form of self-deception.


The reason to lie are vast:

Fear of how others will perceive us
Fear of what others will think of us
Fear of what will be done with the information we share, or how it might someday be used against us
Fear of how others will judge us
Fear of having our feelings or thoughts dismissed, of not being believed
Fear of being told we’re “crazy” or worthless, of being unloved and unlovable
Fear of rejection
Fear of the unknown
Fear of change.
Fear of hurting someone Else's feelings

Lying is easier than telling your boss the truth that you just don't feel like going to work today.

Life does not force us to lie. Lying is wickedness. There is no excuse for it.

So, you have never, ever lied in your life?

So, you have never, ever lied in your life?

I am sure that as a child I did. As a man, I have not. Although I told my fiancee before I married her that I would pledge to always tell her the truth unless it was to hide a gift or surprise party etc.

Hey Nanatsu,

How come you are no longer the biggest flirt of NSG? What happened?

Hey Nanatsu,

How come you are no longer the biggest flirt of NSG? What happened?

GF, that's something that doesn't concern you.:wink:

GF, that's something that doesn't concern you.:wink:

The simple fact that something happens to be none of my business does not mean that I am not curious. Besides, I think it is all just a joke. Nobody could ever top you in sheer flirtation output, so I know nobody replaced you as top flirt. Also, I know that you cannot stop flirting. Like the tides and the revolutions of the planets, your sould is called to flirtation and you can no more resist it than a rock thrown from a cliff can resist the pull of gravity. So since nobody is flirting more than you on NSG and because you are still a flirt, it is sheer nonsense that you are no longer the biggest flirt on NSG.

The simple fact that something happens to be none of my business does not mean that I am not curious.

Which doesn't imply I have to explain myself to you. Does it?

Besides, I think it is all just a joke. Nobody could ever top you in sheer flirtation output, so I know nobody replaced you as top flirt. Also, I know that you cannot stop flirting.

Ah well, you don't know me, never will. It doesn't matter.

Like the tides and the revolutions of the planets, your sould is called to flirtation and you can no more resist it than a rock thrown from a cliff can resist the pull of gravity. So since nobody is flirting more than you on NSG and because you are still a flirt, it is sheer nonsense that you are no longer the biggest flirt on NSG.

This is truly infuriating me. So, in views that I may insult you, I will leave now.

Which doesn't imply I have to explain myself to you. Does it?



Ah well, you don't know me, never will. It doesn't matter.



This is truly infuriating me. So, in views that I may insult you, I will leave now.

I did not mean any offense. I am sorry that I made you mad. Please forgive me.

Which doesn't imply I have to explain myself to you. Does it?



Ah well, you don't know me, never will. It doesn't matter.



This is truly infuriating me. So, in views that I may insult you, I will leave now.

I did not mean any harm I was trying to be funny. You do not have to explain anything to me.

Your friend had every right to terminate your friendship for lying. Why should he trust a liar like you?

Blow it out your ass.


The Fifth Amendment is designed to protect you from self incrimination. You are not lying when you assert your rights and refuse to answer a self incriminating question.

Except where implicit in the oath is that all questions will be answered.


If someone asked you if you would turn your mom in for shoplifting and held your answer against you, that is plain nuts on their part. Are you sure that is the only reason? I think a better response would be. "I would lose a lot of respect for my mother if I saw her shoplifting. However, I could never report my mother to law enforcement. I would certainly talk to my mother about the incident and encourage her to return the stolen property." This would have been a far better response than a simple yes or no answer. Nobody wants yes or no answers in an interview.

Not so easy to give such an overblown answer on a multiple choice test taken with a #2 pencil.

some people are like you; they sincerely want to get to know a person, and are happy to let others be "who they are," warts and all.

That's about 3% of the population. We are in the minority; always good to meet another realist!

Thanks. I'm not above (or below) giving advice but I don't try to force people to make choices.

Just like the title says, does societal pressures force our hand in acts of deceit? A few examples: Drug use, alcohol consumption, successes, past conquests in the bedroom, lying about shameful acts, etc.

Do we feel compelled to make ourselves better than we really are, all in the name of self image?

I think so. People get away with white lies as teens (lying about drug/alcohol use to parents for example), and that could easily lead to bigger dishonest acts. Or are some people just inherently dishonest from birth?

Thoughts?

Both.
Not necessarily in interest of "self-image" so much as "a person's gonna work as hard as they know they're being monitored" kinda vibe.