NationStates Jolt Archive


Devastating bushfires in Victoria, 209 confirmed dead.

Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 02:22
It was 46.4 C (116 F) yesterday in Melbourne, the hottest ever recorded & 47.9 C (118 F) in Avalon, about 45 minutes down the road.

The conditions created horrific bushfire conditions, combining with 60-100km an hour hot northerly winds for a terrible result.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/death-toll-rises-from-bushfires-20090208-80jv.html?page=-1

Twenty-six people are confirmed dead and the toll is expected to rise in Victoria's worst bushfires since Ash Wednesday.

The number of dead is expected to reach more than 40 as blazes continue to ravage the state with more than 100,000 hectares affected as 3000 firefighters struggle to contain seven major firefronts.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25024244-661,00.html

MODEDIT: Updated to 209 people dead.
Ifreann
08-02-2009, 02:24
Ban fire.
Intangelon
08-02-2009, 02:24
Victoria, meet San Diego.
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 02:37
Bushfires are a yearly occurance here, but they're not usually fatal. These ones are particularly shocking, because they moved so quickly, people were caught out. Most of the fatalies so far seem to have been people trapped in their cars trying to flee the fires.

I've never experienced conditions like that before, the itensity of the hear & wind was like a furnace.
Ifreann
08-02-2009, 02:40
Man, that would make a great scene in a movie. Someone barelling down a highway with a huge fucking wall of fire chasing them.



In real life one would probably shit enough bricks to wall off the solar system and keep out illegal aliens.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 02:43
It all happened so quickly. In the morning authorities are issuing the most ominous warnings and then, next thing you know, the whole state seems to be alight.

I visited my sister in Narre Warren North - an outer south-eastern suburb of Melbourne (40-50 km from the CBD - Melbourne is very spread out) yesterday afternoon and there was a fire in the hills about 2-3 km east of her house. It was an awesome sight. The wind was taking the fire away so she was not in danger.

Some of the television footage is extraordinary. Channel 7 showed flames from the Kilmore fire (north of Melbourne) racing up a hill with a house at the top. Many times I've heard people say how quickly fires can travel. This speed of the flames was boggling. The house disappeared behind smoke and flames - I don't know what happened to it.

46.4ºC is no joke.
Ardchoille
08-02-2009, 03:15
Glad to see you posting, Errinundera; I was afraid you might be closer to the action.

Heard on the radio a mobile phone conversation with a bloke whose family had just been driving down the highway with the flames racing them on either side. He rang as soon as they were out of danger to broadcast the conditions in the area.

One thing that impresses me to hell and gone every time there's an emergency, and that's how valuable the ABC is at times like this. Commercial radio is giving short bulletins about stay away, gather here and so on, but ABC News has been able to suspend all its programs and just take calls and co-ordinate info and national call numbers. The local stations are broadcasting area details and the national system is issuing alerts, finding relatives, highlighting individual needs and keeping up a constant flow of info about help coming in. They're also important in keeping people away.

One story really hit me. A local captain of the Bush Fire Brigade called in; while his team had been out firefighting, someone had broken in and stolen all their equipment. "Please, can you just bring back the hand-held radio," he said. "We need that now."

There's low-life, and there's pond-scum, and there's bottom-feeders, and then there's the person who'd do that.
Chumblywumbly
08-02-2009, 03:17
Crikey.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 03:48
...One story really hit me. A local captain of the Bush Fire Brigade called in; while his team had been out firefighting, someone had broken in and stolen all their equipment. "Please, can you just bring back the hand-held radio," he said. "We need that now."

There's low-life, and there's pond-scum, and there's bottom-feeders, and then there's the person who'd do that.

Argh!

The cruel irony is that the firefighters would put their lives on the line to save that bloke if it were necessary.
One-O-One
08-02-2009, 03:52
On the upside; smoke drifting across the Tasman is causing awesome sepia light here, and the sun is a small orange ball in the sky.

Actually, my sister is living in Melbourne at the moment...
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 04:03
I just can't comprehend the mindset of someone who would break into a CFA shed & steal the equipment, while the volunteers were out fighting a fire.
Svalbardania
08-02-2009, 04:05
This is just phenomenal. I was travelling yesterday and the city was just covered in smoke, it looked amazing at sunset, but so much devastation. I just wished it had rained more when the change came through, every bit of help is so important. I'm going to donate blood tomorrow for burns victims.

Oh shit, I just remembered, I have good friends in the middle of the dandenongs. I should probably check up on them. Anybody know a good map showing where the fires have been?
Svalbardania
08-02-2009, 04:07
I just can't comprehend the mindset of someone who would break into a CFA shed & steal the equipment, while the volunteers were out fighting a fire.

It truly is apalling. And the news says that some fires have been re-lit. Jesus. Those fireys have enough problems.

Also, the army has been called in. I'm beginning to think that was not such a bad idea.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 04:17
This is just phenomenal. I was travelling yesterday and the city was just covered in smoke, it looked amazing at sunset, but so much devastation. I just wished it had rained more when the change came through, every bit of help is so important. I'm going to donate blood tomorrow for burns victims.

Oh shit, I just remembered, I have good friends in the middle of the dandenongs. I should probably check up on them. Anybody know a good map showing where the fires have been?

Try the CFA website.

It's strange. The fire near my sister's that I mention above has not been reported upon in any of the news bulletins or websites I've seen (or heard, or read).
Whereyouthinkyougoing
08-02-2009, 04:23
It all happened so quickly. In the morning authorities are issuing the most ominous warnings and then, next thing you know, the whole state seems to be alight.

I visited my sister in Narre Warren North - an outer south-eastern suburb of Melbourne (40-50 km from the CBD - Melbourne is very spread out) yesterday afternoon and there was a fire in the hills about 2-3 km east of her house. It was an awesome sight. The wind was taking the fire away so she was not in danger.

Some of the television footage is extraordinary. Channel 7 showed flames from the Kilmore fire (north of Melbourne) racing up a hill with a house at the top. Many times I've heard people say how quickly fires can travel. This speed of the flames was boggling. The house disappeared behind smoke and flames - I don't know what happened to it.

46.4ºC is no joke.
Oh shit, I think I know someone in Narre Warren. :S

Glad you're okay, though.
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 04:38
This article has a google map, but it's not ultra specific.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/death-toll-rises-from-bushfires-20090208-80jv.html

I heard the Narre Warren fire reported, I think about 7 houses were lost, but no reports of casualties.
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 04:41
Oh shit, I think I know someone in Narre Warren. :S

Glad you're okay, though.

I'm pretty sure Kanabia said he lives in Narre.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 05:02
It's almost incomprehensible that places like Kinglake or Marysville have been burnt to the ground. I know them so well. They were in beautiful locations.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 05:32
Yours truly at Keppel's Lookout overlooking Marysville (lower left in picture) with Cathedral Ranges in background. The photo was taken in July 2004, ie winter.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/HarpExpedition2081.jpg

Marysville this morning.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Marysville.jpg
Whereyouthinkyougoing
08-02-2009, 05:42
I'm pretty sure Kanabia said he lives in Narre.
That's what I thought! Shit. http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-cry.gif
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 05:47
That's what I thought! Shit. http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-cry.gif

It was a relatively small fire there & limited damage, so fingers crossed he'll be ok.
Sudova
08-02-2009, 05:55
That's some damn big fires. Anybody know if there's a relief/aid group that some of the non-aussies can send help to? (as in, one that isn't going to soak most of it as "operating expenses")? I know Aussies sent stuff for Katrina, it's only neighbourly an all...
Ardchoille
08-02-2009, 06:02
I don't know how it seems to the survivors, but from my safe perch in NSW, it looks as if they're getting the fight organised and the relief going faster than they did last year. No waiting for Elvis the waterbombing heli, other States already on it, emergency payments going out this morning (and on a Sunday, too), national disaster donation set up.

Took up to a week for the cash to start flowing when my town flooded in 2007, though that was, admittedly, a once-in-100-years one.

Really liked the cool of the SA Premier -- yeah, our fire aircraft are on their way, that's okay, we won't need them till Tuesday.
Dimesa
08-02-2009, 06:06
Sounds like a liberal conspiracy to collect credits.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 06:10
That's some damn big fires. Anybody know if there's a relief/aid group that some of the non-aussies can send help to? (as in, one that isn't going to soak most of it as "operating expenses")? I know Aussies sent stuff for Katrina, it's only neighbourly an all...

A $10 MILLION bushfire relief fund has been set up to help families and communities devastated by Victoria's horror fires.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said Centrelink payments would be available immediately for anyone needing assistance.

"This is an appalling for Victoria ... and so for the nation," he said.

National Australia Bank also established the Victorian Bushfire Relief Fund today, donating $1 million to the cause.

NAB Group Chief Executive Officer Cameron Clyne said the bank would work with customers and affected communities to provide relief.

"Our thoughts are with those personally affected, and we offer our heartfelt support and encouragement to the firefighters and volunteers who continue to battle to save properties," he said.

Donations to the Victorian Bushfire Relief Fund can be made at any NAB branch or via internet banking. BSB: 082-001. Account number: 860 046 797.

Victoria Police have urged those wishing to donate not to tie up 000 and other emergency hotlines and instead to call the Red Cross Information Line on 1800 727 077.

Link (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,27574,25024358-2862,00.html)

The Red Cross seems to be the logical organisation to approach.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 06:24
This is sooooo Australia.

1. Go to the ABC news web page here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/).

2. Scroll down the page until you get to the video section. To the right of the "featured video" there is a scroll down list of video reports.

3. Find report entitled "Devastated town: Marysville levelled by bushfire" and play. There isn't any sound on this report, just film.

4. Now find the report entitled "Queensland floods: emergency worsens in the state's tropical north" and play.

5. :confused:

Or perhaps this:

Dad stuck in floods, mum caught up in fires (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/08/2485534.htm)
Sudova
08-02-2009, 06:28
I think y'all have some arsonists in need of hanging.
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 09:40
66 confirmed dead now & they're still expecting to find more. :(
Boonytopia
08-02-2009, 10:32
76 confirmed dead now, it's just horrific.

I've just found out that a friend of my brother & his father have been killed trying to defend their home.
Sudova
08-02-2009, 10:48
you Aussies Really, REally need to hang some arsonists for this. The slow way, from a lamp-post. Seriously. It's bad enough when Mother nature trips off a brushfire, but some of the ABC reports were talking about people doing it deliberately.

Which is, well...probably felony murder, and definitely premeditated. These "Firebugs" are a threat to their neighbours and it can't be "Medicated away" or "Rehabilitated".

Seventy Six People. Seventy six lives, seventy six people who didn't deserve to burn to death, burnt to death because some asshole wanted to get off on the destruction.
Dododecapod
08-02-2009, 10:53
I don't know how it seems to the survivors, but from my safe perch in NSW, it looks as if they're getting the fight organised and the relief going faster than they did last year. No waiting for Elvis the waterbombing heli, other States already on it, emergency payments going out this morning (and on a Sunday, too), national disaster donation set up.

Took up to a week for the cash to start flowing when my town flooded in 2007, though that was, admittedly, a once-in-100-years one.

Really liked the cool of the SA Premier -- yeah, our fire aircraft are on their way, that's okay, we won't need them till Tuesday.

Got some stuff getting ready on the west coast, too. A couple of my friends have volunteered for emergency SES duty, but our teams won't be on the ground till monday morning.
Ardchoille
08-02-2009, 11:08
Gods, Boony, I hope you can be with him.

For those wanting to help, latest info is here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/08/2485598.htm):

To contribute to the fund, people can call Red Cross on 1800 811 700.

The National Australia Bank one again is: via internet banking, BSB: 082-001. Account number: 860 046 797.

For those concerned about the fund's use, the Salvos say:

... most money raised from the appeal will go to direct cash grants to people as they are registered through the Red Cross, and a small amount will cover the expenses of having emergency services teams on the front line.

and the Victorian Premier, John Brumby, says:

... an independent panel of community leaders would set criteria for directing funds raised to people, organisations and communities.

The criteria will include the degree of hardship people have experienced and the degree to which a person's livelihood and infrastructure have been affected.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/victorian-bushfire-appeal-launched-20090208-80xa.html

Selfishly hoping no NSers are among the dead, hurt or homeless.

EDIT: Sudova, we don't have the death penalty. If you want to discuss it, please make another thread.
Svalbardania
08-02-2009, 11:57
My brother is an SES volunteer, who has contacts in all the SES and CFA crews. I can't give details, but expect this to get much worse before it gets better. We're talking over 100 dead here.

And there was a water helicopter sitting all day, with pilots but without directions, in Pakenham today. A lot of very upset volunteers.
Lapse
08-02-2009, 12:22
This is horrible.

I just got back from mackay, where it has been raining for the past week, to hear about this.

Latest is 84 dead. My best wishes and condolences to all involved.
And of course my utmost respect, thanks and appreciation for the fireys - paid or volunteer. Especially those that must be sacrificing their own home to help defend someone elses.

I am pretty sure that the house I lived in when I was a young un would probably be gone by now - Whittlesea near mount dissapointing.

I hope that whichever dickheads are responsible for these fires get what they deserve. Let this be a lesson: Don't throw your fucking cigarette butts out your car window! Don't be irresponsible with fire.
Saint Jade IV
08-02-2009, 12:27
My thoughts are with all of those affected by the bushfires and the floods in North QLD.

I currently have a friend cut off in the North Qld floods, so I understand how hard it is not knowing and waiting and wondering.

I hope that our Australian spirit comes to the fore for everyone who needs it.
Lapse
08-02-2009, 12:30
I hope that our Australian spirit comes to the fore for everyone who needs it.
I hope they receive plenty of $950 donations.
Saint Jade IV
08-02-2009, 12:38
I hope they receive plenty of $950 donations.
Yes well, one would hope that our prime minister's plan to help us out goes to those who need it most.
Lapse
08-02-2009, 12:43
Collectivity is Victoria aswell...

Apart from Collectivity and Kanabia are there any other Victorian people we are waiting to hear from?
No Names Left Damn It
08-02-2009, 12:43
Jesus Christ. Does this threaten Melbourne at all?
Saint Jade IV
08-02-2009, 12:51
I'm really really hoping Kanabia is okay.
Lapse
08-02-2009, 12:56
Jesus Christ. Does this threaten Melbourne at all?

About 45 minutes North.

There should be plenty of fire breaks between where the fires are and the Melbourne suburbs. The problem is that there are huge areas of scrubby national park around which burns incredibly easily. These small communities that have been wiped out are mostly in the middle of this bush.

Some people (like me) believe that anywhere within 2 hours of Melbourne is still considered Melbourne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Victorian_bushfires for a more explanatory article on the bushfires as opposed to news.com.au
Svalbardania
08-02-2009, 13:08
Jesus Christ. Does this threaten Melbourne at all?

Not unless the wind changes dramatically, but most suburban Melbourne is fine.

It's just rural that could be stuffed. A lot of towns just don't exist anymore. There are lots more bodies to come.
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 13:12
Jesus Christ. Does this threaten Melbourne at all?

Generally bushfires in Australia don't travel far into the large cities. The houses in outer suburbs are brick and usually well spaced apart. At most they may encroach a few blocks. That can still be awful, ie Canberra in 2003 and Hobart in 1967.

Many deaths occur in the smaller towns which often consist of wooden buildings and surrounded by bushland or grassland.

Another problem is the "bush blocks" that surround the large cities. Kinglake is a perfect example of this sort of community. The town itself is quite small but many people, seeking the bush life, have bought blocks of a few hectares in the nearby countryside. The properties are within commuting distance of Melbourne and the houses are built in idyllic bush settings - idyllic until a bushfire arrives.
Ardchoille
08-02-2009, 13:13
... I hope that our Australian spirit comes to the fore for everyone who needs it.

There's no doubt that's happening. Look at some of the offers on this web-page (http://blogs.abc.net.au/victoria/2009/02/offer-help---or.html). People are handing over entire houses, taking horses for agistment (and that's insanely expensive) ... one bloke's ready to drive his fully equipped campervan anywhere in the state and just leave it with whoever needs it.

But a lot of Queenslanders will be reading about the fires and hoping their own politicians will be able to make enough noise for the floods to be noticed too. There may not be a death toll, but there are homes and livelihoods lost just as surely.

Collectivity lives in inner Melbourne, I think.
No Names Left Damn It
08-02-2009, 13:14
Collectivity is Victoria aswell...

But he's actually from Melbourne so surely he'll be alright?
Errinundera
08-02-2009, 13:17
Collectivity is Victoria aswell...

Apart from Collectivity and Kanabia are there any other Victorian people we are waiting to hear from?

Collectivity lives in inner Melbourne, well away from the fires - assuming he's at home, of course.

There was a minor fire in Kanabia's suburb - some houses were lost but no recorded injuries. Again, assuming Kanabia was home.
Saint Jade IV
08-02-2009, 13:17
There's no doubt that's happening. Look at some of the offers on this web-page (http://blogs.abc.net.au/victoria/2009/02/offer-help---or.html). People are handing over entire houses, taking horses for agistment (and that's insanely expensive) ... one bloke's ready to drive his fully equipped campervan anywhere in the state and just leave it with whoever needs it.

But a lot of Queenslanders will be reading about the fires and hoping their own politicians will be able to make enough noise for the floods to be noticed too. There may not be a death toll, but there are homes and livelihoods lost just as surely.

That's it. My friend is in Charters Towers (right on the Burdekin - waters rose 12.5 metres) and there's just stuff gone everywhere. The town itself appears to be okay at the moment, but Ingham's just destroyed.
Svalbardania
08-02-2009, 13:17
But he's actually from Melbourne so surely he'll be alright?

He should be.
Rukistan
08-02-2009, 14:26
News, Total of 65 dead in Victoria, expected to rise
Blouman Empire
08-02-2009, 14:34
Victoria, meet San Diego.

You speak as if it has never happened in Victoria before.

84 confirmed dead now.

It's just rural that could be stuffed. A lot of towns just don't exist anymore. There are lots more bodies to come.

Surely these towns will evantually be rebuilt? They won't just leave them there.

Hopefully you guys get the cool change that hit us Saturday night very soon.
Dododecapod
08-02-2009, 15:24
You speak as if it has never happened in Victoria before.

84 confirmed dead now.



Surely these towns will evantually be rebuilt? They won't just leave them there.

Hopefully you guys get the cool change that hit us Saturday night very soon.

Sometimes they're rebuilt, sometimes not.

If it was a going concern, with businesses and commerce - yeah, it'll be back. But a lot of those little towns are just dwindling out their last days as ghost towns, quietly disappearing into the dust.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
08-02-2009, 16:05
There was a minor fire in Kanabia's suburb - some houses were lost but no recorded injuries.
No reported injuries! Haven't heard back from him yet but that's good to know, thanks.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
08-02-2009, 16:14
76 confirmed dead now, it's just horrific.

I've just found out that a friend of my brother & his father have been killed trying to defend their home.
Oh shit. That's horrible. I'm sorry, Boony.
Saint Jade IV
09-02-2009, 02:01
This is absolutely horrific. Our poor country seems to be copping it from everywhere. Floods up north, which are getting even worse, worst fires in history in Victoria, heatwave in SA. Someone doesn't like us.

I'm really hoping that Victoria and North Queensland make it through this.
Collectivity
09-02-2009, 02:39
Collectivity is Victoria aswell...

Apart from Collectivity and Kanabia are there any other Victorian people we are waiting to hear from?

Thanks for your thoughts Lapse, I'm fine - I live in St Kilda (inner Melboune on the beach). But it's just so saddening to watch the destruction and to know that 108 people died so horrifyingly.

I grew up with watching Brian Naylor read the news. It's like family dying on you. Commisserations Boony andto all those who have been recently touched by this.:(
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 03:36
It certainly does seem as if someone has it in for us. NSW and Vic on fire, SA almost on fire, Queensland under water... we should move to Tassie.

Expect at least 120 dead. I've although according to the ABC, the official death toll has been revised down to 107 for the moment. But they havn't been able to get close to the worst affected areas. There will be blood.
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 03:39
So they're sending a Cabinet Minister up to North Queensland "for a week or however long it takes". Should be a bit reassuring; it's amazing how fast things can move when a Minister pushes 'em. Depends who it is, though.
Saint Jade IV
09-02-2009, 03:51
So they're sending a Cabinet Minister up to North Queensland "for a week or however long it takes". Should be a bit reassuring; it's amazing how fast things can move when a Minister pushes 'em. Depends who it is, though.
Indeed. I'm hoping that things are done quickly to help everyone affected by these several disasters. At least Cyclone Freddy left WA alone.
Indecline
09-02-2009, 03:58
.. Victoria's worst bushfires since Ash Wednesday.

ironic, non?
Saint Jade IV
09-02-2009, 04:03
ironic, non?

Ash Wednesday fires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday_fires)

FYI
Boonytopia
09-02-2009, 08:23
The death toll has now been revised up to 132 and still climbing as they sift through the burnt out houses & cars. They say it could be months before all the dead are fully accounted for & identified. I'm just shattered at how horrific these fires have been. The police are expecting maybe up to 200 deaths.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/police-taskforce-to-hunt-arsonists-fears-bushfire-toll-may-double-20090209-81ix.html
Greal
09-02-2009, 08:28
A week ago, my cousin told me he was in Victoria. I hope he's alright.
Kanabiah
09-02-2009, 08:33
It was a relatively small fire there & limited damage, so fingers crossed he'll be ok.

/waves

Yup, i'm fine. Narre Warren is a big suburb and I live in the urbanised middle part - the worst I got was the smoke and smell, but the fires themselves were up in the hills a fair way away.

Thanks for the concern though guys, and sorry for the late feedback, I haven't been staying at my usual home so I have limited net access. :-)
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 08:38
/waves

Yup, i'm fine. Narre Warren is a big suburb and I live in the urbanised middle part - the worst I got was the smoke and smell, but the fires themselves were up in the hills a fair way away.

Thanks for the concern though guys, and sorry for the late feedback, I haven't been staying at my usual home so I have limited net access. :-)

hoorah! Now all we have to do is worry about the other 200 dead...

What are these fires going to be called, do you think?
Kanabiah
09-02-2009, 08:42
hoorah! Now all we have to do is worry about the other 200 dead...

What are these fires going to be called, do you think?

Well, I saw "Black Saturday" in the newspaper the other day, but I think that "Black Sabbath" has a nice ring to it.
Boonytopia
09-02-2009, 08:42
/waves

Yup, i'm fine. Narre Warren is a big suburb and I live in the urbanised middle part - the worst I got was the smoke and smell, but the fires themselves were up in the hills a fair way away.

Thanks for the concern though guys, and sorry for the late feedback, I haven't been staying at my usual home so I have limited net access. :-)

Good to hear you're ok, even if you can't spell your name correctly. ;)
Kanabiah
09-02-2009, 08:47
Good to hear you're ok, even if you can't spell your name correctly. ;)

Well, I could have filed a nation restoration request but who knows how long that would take. /shrug

Or maybe i'm an impostor. >.>
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 08:48
The February Fires?

Odd how we fasten on trivialities when there's something we'd rather not face. I found myself thinking about that question earlier today when I was driving. Probably some sub-editor is coming up with a good line even as we type.

BTW, Kanabia, you should be able to restore it yourself. When you try to log in it should say, "The nation Kanabia no longer exists. Would you like to restore it?" Then you type your password in the dialogue box and you're set.
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 08:50
Well, I could have filed a nation restoration request but who knows how long that would take. /shrug

Or maybe i'm an impostor. >.>

You can resurrect your own nation these days. Kinky huh?
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 08:52
The February Fires?

Odd how we fasten on trivialities when there's something we'd rather not face. I found myself spending quite a while thinking about that one earlier today. Probably some sub-editor is coming up with a good line even as we type.

It's because, I suppose, we can't handle too much stress and bad news. That's why they were drip-feeding the death results. Officially the death toll had climbed higher than they were letting on. But as Kanabia said before, I think I too heard someone calling it Black Saturday. It doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well though.
Kanabia
09-02-2009, 09:09
BTW, Kanabia, you should be able to restore it yourself. When you try to log in it should say, "The nation Kanabia no longer exists. Would you like to restore it?" Then you type your password in the dialogue box and you're set.

You can resurrect your own nation these days. Kinky huh?

Oooh, cool. Thanks. :)
Kyronea
09-02-2009, 09:35
This is insane.

What exactly is keeping these brushfires going? Is there anything Australia can do to change it?
Alexandrian Ptolemais
09-02-2009, 09:45
This is insane.

What exactly is keeping these brushfires going? Is there anything Australia can do to change it?

The warm weather, that is what is keeping these fires going. The same weather system that the Australians have had is now coming to New Zealand, and boy has it gotten hot. I am sitting at 9:45pm, with a window open, topless and still struggling to cool down.

Bushfires and Australia go hand in hand, and I don't think that there is much that Australia can do to change it, aside from bringing back the death penalty (I propose burning at the stake in this instance) for arsonists.
Boonytopia
09-02-2009, 10:33
This is insane.

What exactly is keeping these brushfires going? Is there anything Australia can do to change it?

Bushfires are very difficult to contain, let alone extinguish, once they get going because the countryside is bone dry & the trees are laden with eucalyptus oil.

Most of the deaths have already occurred, it's just that now they're able to get back into the burnt out towns, they're discovering the true carnage.
Imperial isa
09-02-2009, 10:45
they get hold of dicks who lit them and made half of Vic a crime scene,bet they get a beating like anything if the cops don't get to them first
The Archregimancy
09-02-2009, 11:56
Until the end of 2007, my wife and I lived just around the corner from Errinundera (somehow we never did get around to meeting, even though we used the same tram stop), and while we're in the UK now, we inevitably still have a lot of friends and family in Victoria.

The family in Melbourne are fine, but I just found out this morning that friends who live a bit north of Whittlesea have lost most of their property - the outlying sheds, the forest they were planting, and probably most of the horses. The house itself seems, as far as I know, to be fine, just about the only thing that is - so an incredibly lucky escape there - but everything else is gone.

While it hasn't been in the news as much, I'm increasingly concerned about parts of South Gippsland, as I have a lot of friends in the area from work I was doing down there from 2005-2007.

My mother-in-law sent me a photograph of their external thermometer over the weekend - 47 celsius in the shade (in Canterbury).

It's just a nasty, nasty situation all round.
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 11:59
This is insane.

What exactly is keeping these brushfires going? Is there anything Australia can do to change it?

There is a continuing argument about backburning -- lighting controlled fires early on so that the scrubby undergrowth that fuels the massive late-season fires can be reduced. The academic quoted in this news story feels it's not done often enough:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/748826/victorias-bushfires-compared-to-hiroshima

The other side of this idea is that it's difficult to really control any fire, it could cause enormous (globally dangerous?) amounts of air pollution and it could push at-risk native flora or fauna over the edge of extinction.

It even touches on Aboriginal issues. Some contend that pre-settlement Aborigines did controlled burns before Europeans came -- that Europeans, failing to take their advice, are careless guardians of the land.

Then, too, there's the "unstoppable" feeling. These aren't just ordinary fires. This year's have been compared to "660 Hiroshima bombs" and flames have reached 80m high. The idea is that we can no more stop these fires than we can turn around cyclones.

I'm not pushing any of these arguments (so no links, this is just from memory). I'm just trying to explain that "doing something" is a complex political, social and scientific issue.

Maybe the deaths will push the different groups into sorting something out. It's happened before with other issues.
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 12:20
I'm of the opinion that backburning is an intergal part of the bushfire management that has to go on, but having said that, I don't think controlled fires would have saved a lot of these people. It was just too much of a perfect storm of conditions.

The key to surviving these inevitable bushfires is forward planning either leave before you can even see smoke, or don't leave at all and get good defences set up. Most of these people died because they were planning to stay, then saw a fire 200kms away and thought to themselves "oh, well, maybe I should go", thinking they'd have time. This fire was just way too quick and covered that ground in about 20 minutes.
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 13:00
Yeah -- backburning seems rational to me, but I'm no expert and no farmer. Besides, it seems a bit early for that discussion yet.

I hope the pollies are able to keep the debate out of the gutter. I just saw someone Twitter that "the greenies" were "to blame for 3/4 of the deaths".

Give them their due, I don't think any of the parties would play such a card. I'm trying to remind myself that the Twitterer may have been directly affected.
Lapse
09-02-2009, 13:03
Bushfires and Australia go hand in hand, and I don't think that there is much that Australia can do to change it, aside from bringing back the death penalty (I propose burning at the stake in this instance) for arsonists.

Fuckwits that throw their cigarette butts out car windows are just as bad in my opinion.

Every time I see someone do it , I have to drive up beside them and give them the lecture.
Dododecapod
09-02-2009, 13:11
We do controlled burns all the time in WA. All through Autumn and Spring we burn off the undergrowth in the most overgrown areas around Perth and the major regional centres.

We still get bushfires (had a nasty one in King's Park last month, right in the centre of the city) but we don't get these infernos.
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 13:40
Yeah -- backburning seems rational to me, but I'm no expert and no farmer. Besides, it seems a bit early for that discussion yet.

I hope the pollies are able to keep the debate out of the gutter. I just saw someone Twitter that "the greenies" were "to blame for 3/4 of the deaths".

Give them their due, I don't think any of the parties would play such a card. I'm trying to remind myself that the Twitterer may have been directly affected.

I'm pretty sure that was Wilson Tuckey. You don't have to listen to him.
Svalbardania
09-02-2009, 13:41
We do controlled burns all the time in WA. All through Autumn and Spring we burn off the undergrowth in the most overgrown areas around Perth and the major regional centres.

We still get bushfires (had a nasty one in King's Park last month, right in the centre of the city) but we don't get these infernos.

See, the thing is, I think we do that here too. Just maybe not all over the place or all the time.
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 13:50
We do controlled burns all the time in WA. ... <snip> ...We still get bushfires (had a nasty one in King's Park last month, right in the centre of the city) but we don't get these infernos.

It's different country, though, isn't it? It's years since I visited WA, but I seem to remember it as less heavily treed than Victoria.

I'm pretty sure that was Wilson Tuckey. You don't have to listen to him.

Of course, how could I have forgotten! :D *notes in diary: disregard Tuckey*
BunnySaurus Bugsii
09-02-2009, 14:02
I'm working on my fire plan right now.

I have bush all around. I'm up a hill. My on-property water is 2K litres, and I don't have a diesel pump or hoses. I have wooden superstructure, draughty eaves, and no car to escape in.

I have, rather suddenly, realized that my bushfire defence strategy is weak and ill-advised.

The RFS (NSW equiv of the CFA in Vic) would help me out ... unless they had a hundred more viable properties to defend, which they would if NSW had faced the kind of conditions Vic did this weekend.

We can't turn to government to prevent these fires. We can't turn to volunteer firefighters to protect us from these (once in a century) fires. We need to build and maintain houses that can be defended by their residents, depending on their immediate surrounds.

Insurance policy will change in the next few weeks. Building codes in fire-prone areas will change in a year or two (local councils.) Property values will fluctuate wildly, even within kilometres of different blocks (property market.)

Government response to this (beyond of course immediate relief, like army resources, and Centrelink payments for food, transport, accomodation, and coincidentally "stimulatory" rebuilding of infrastructure, which are all fine post facto) should be measured on a scale of years.

Of course I am horrified by the mistakes we have all made that could lose so many of our lives. But we must not rush to find culprits, and in this Vic premier Brumby is correct and the Federal government wrong: we need a Royal Commission on bushfire defence strategy, not a witch-hunt against people who carry matches.

We can't stop murder. We can't stop arson. But we can harden the individual targets, properties, to the extent that arson takes one property, the lives of one household, and does not have the "force multiplier" of a fuel load and many undefended properties in its range.

Wildfire danger a huge issue which the federal government government has ignored for years. State governments haven't been much better ... it's been fought out at the local council level, between developers, land-owners, service providers, and the inherently local volunteer fire brigades and conservationists.

It simply isn't good enough that government on all levels has left the defence of lives to the volunteer firefighters, and the defence of property to the insurance providers. Suddenly Federalizing it would be destructive ... though I suppose in the current climate of "deficit spending good" it isn't the worst thing they could spend on.

Brumby is right. A Royal Commission, an open forum without rushed, emotional legislative responses. Let's have a return of findings by next summer, when this could happen again but we could be better prepared.

To be brutal about it: the same thing could happen next year, and collectively our strategy should aim for half the casualties, and just as much property loss. We need to aim for more defensible housing, less housing and business property in indefensible areas, and a fire strategy that acknowledges the long history of uncontrolled fire in our country.

A house is barely built in a year, and it's lived in for twenty years. A strategy for defensible housing lies somewhere in between, at five years perhaps. Let's not grasp for a sudden solution to a long term problem, simply because we have suddenly become aware of it.
Dododecapod
09-02-2009, 14:04
It's different country, though, isn't it? It's years since I visited WA, but I seem to remember it as less heavily treed than Victoria.


North of the city, no. But the southwest has a LOT of heavy woodland that just loves to burn.

And aside from Perth itself, it's the most heavily populated part of the state.
Blouman Empire
09-02-2009, 14:05
This is insane.

What exactly is keeping these brushfires going? Is there anything Australia can do to change it?

The heat, the winds and really the dry trees and other plants which hasn't been helped due to the drought. As well as arsonists, there have been reports of arsonists relighting fires as well.

Now fires is a natural part of the Australian wildlife and is indeed almost a necessary part of rejuvenation. Some of Australia's natural trees require the fires to come through which opens up the trees and allows it to drop their seeds. Usually in a few months time and some rain these blackened areas begin to become green again.

People have also been talking about the amount of human death which is very saddening and important to be told about, but what about natural wildlife? How many members of endangered species was killed because of these fires?
Blouman Empire
09-02-2009, 14:06
The key to surviving these inevitable bushfires is forward planning either leave before you can even see smoke, or don't leave at all and get good defences set up. Most of these people died because they were planning to stay, then saw a fire 200kms away and thought to themselves "oh, well, maybe I should go", thinking they'd have time. This fire was just way too quick and covered that ground in about 20 minutes.

I think in some areas all the usual defences (clear ground around your house, gutters full of water, ditches in the ground, etc) would not have been that effective anyway.

I don't remember if this was just the papers or them quoting someone with authority but it said those that stayed died, those that fled to late died and those that fled early got lucky.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
09-02-2009, 14:29
I'm pretty sure that was Wilson Tuckey. You don't have to listen to him.

You should, though.

His opinion represents far more than 0.66 % of the federal electorate.

In a properly representative system (proportional) there would be perhaps ten of him, co-ordinated in their platform, and under the banner of a single party unbeholden to the mongrel alliance of the conservative side.

I mean, is it only one of 150, among the Australian people, who believe that we should cut down all the native vegetation and run cattle on the resulting dirt ... to save us all from bushfires?

I'd say it's more like ten percent.

That extreme faction of "anti-environmentalists" will never set the agenda. But they deserve to be heard.
Soleichunn
09-02-2009, 14:32
I just can't comprehend the mindset of someone who would break into a CFA shed & steal the equipment, while the volunteers were out fighting a fire.
People tend to do stupid things in a crisis.

I'm of the opinion that backburning is an intergal part of the bushfire management that has to go on, but having said that, I don't think controlled fires would have saved a lot of these people. It was just too much of a perfect storm of conditions.
I kind of agree - Some people are justin horrible locations, though a more stringent fire detection & fighting system, along with more agressive backburning would have decreased the scale of the fires.
The Archregimancy
09-02-2009, 14:32
While it hasn't been in the news as much, I'm increasingly concerned about parts of South Gippsland, as I have a lot of friends in the area from work I was doing down there from 2005-2007.

Quoting myself there, but now I'm somewhat more worried as I've just found out that the Churchill fire, which has apparently killed at least 21 people so far, made it as far as Yarram - which is the area where a lot of my work took place - Carrajung and Won Wron. Which looks like it means no one's been able to drive between Yarram and Traralgon over the Hyland Highway (one of my favourite roads in Vic) recently.

This may seem a paltry thing to worry about right now, but I don't suppose anyone knows how badly Tarra Bulga National Park might have been impacted?
BunnySaurus Bugsii
09-02-2009, 14:51
I think in some areas all the usual defences (clear ground around your house, gutters full of water, ditches in the ground, etc) would not have been that effective anyway.

It's a new precedent.

Clear ground around your house still works. Perhaps the standard has increased from fifty metres to a hundred and fifty, but it will still work. Radiant heat decreases at the square of distance, and hot air rises.

Instead of local water and a pump, fire-resistant clothing, sealed eaves ... we now need to consider radiant-heat-resistant walls, resistant shutters for windows, firefighters suits with independent air, and bunkers. A very hot fire, driven by a high wind, can't burn in one place for long.

As I suggested in my long post, building housing to this new standard takes years, it needs to phase-out the existing housing. Five years in a heavily-funded hurry, but more realistically ten or fifteen years.
Ardchoille
09-02-2009, 14:57
This may seem a paltry thing to worry about right now, but I don't suppose anyone knows how badly Tarra Bulga National Park might have been impacted?

Does the Google map (http://google-au.blogspot.com/2009/02/mapping-victorian-fires.html) of the fires help?

The site's got some links that sound as if they might be helpful for local detail.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
09-02-2009, 15:06
People tend to do stupid things in a crisis.

Some people, perhaps. Certainly people harm their own interests in panic, facing a situation they have no experience or planning for.

Robbing the local volunteer fire brigade, to get saleable goods with a low risk of being caught (the volunteers are off fighting fires) ... nope, that's vicious: a small benefit to the perpetrator, for a large harm to others.

There is a certain weirdness to volunteer organizations though. Take away the profit motive, and you reveal some other forms of competition which are rather involuted and perverted.
The Archregimancy
09-02-2009, 15:07
Does the Google map (http://google-au.blogspot.com/2009/02/mapping-victorian-fires.html) of the fires help?

The site's got some links that sound as if they might be helpful for local detail.

It might, but none of our computers at work have Flash enabled; it's to discourage us from spending too much on the ebil internets.

I'll check when I get home tonight, though - thanks for the link.
Soleichunn
09-02-2009, 15:09
Robbing the local volunteer fire brigade, to get saleable goods with a low risk of being caught (the volunteers are off fighting fires) ... nope, that's vicious: a small benefit to the perpetrator, for a large harm to others.

Hey, it's still stupid. Greed in a time of crisis is increadibly stupid.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
09-02-2009, 15:20
Hey, it's still stupid. Greed in a time of crisis is increadibly stupid.

I suppose also they might have broken in to find a pump or other firefighting gear which wasn't being used ... it could have been self-interest initially.

I think too much like a criminal myself to really be very critical.
Nova Magna Germania
09-02-2009, 17:02
It was 46.4 C (116 F) yesterday in Melbourne, the hottest ever recorded & 47.9 C (118 F) in Avalon, about 45 minutes down the road.

The conditions created horrific bushfire conditions, combining with 60-100km an hour hot northerly winds for a terrible result.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/death-toll-rises-from-bushfires-20090208-80jv.html?page=-1

Twenty-six people are confirmed dead and the toll is expected to rise in Victoria's worst bushfires since Ash Wednesday.

The number of dead is expected to reach more than 40 as blazes continue to ravage the state with more than 100,000 hectares affected as 3000 firefighters struggle to contain seven major firefronts.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25024244-661,00.html

MODEDIT: Updated to 132 people dead.

Why did they not evacuate?
The Archregimancy
09-02-2009, 17:32
Why did they not evacuate?

I take it - and I mean this politely - that you're not familiar with Australian bushfire conditions. Australia is prepared for bushfires, but these are bushfires of an unprecedented severity that have overwhelmed Victoria's defences.

Many people were in fact evacuating, but the fires were moving faster than they could drive. They were killed when the flames overtook their vehicles.

Many people, quite correctly, and in accordance with approved procedure, stayed to defend their property in keeping with their prepared fire readiness plan (which most people in the country have). They were overwhelmed by the worst bushfire conditions in the country's history.

What made these fires different is the combination of an unprecedented heatwave, strong winds, and the worst drought in a century.

On top of that, and this is something that people who haven't lived in Australia often don't appreciate, is that the local flora is designed to burn. The oil in eucalypt trees is so volatile that not only does a fire spread rapidly through the forest canopy, but the trees actually explode.

Summed up, they were as prepared as they could be, and many people did evacuate. The conditions are simply so bad that there's little more that anyone could have done.
Lapse
09-02-2009, 22:27
It is now 173.
Alexandrian Ptolemais
09-02-2009, 23:50
The Black Caps (New Zealand Cricket Team) is going to be wearing black armbands in today's match in Adelaide in memory of the victims of the bushfires, and there is going to be a minutes silence before the beginning of the match.

So far, the New Zealand Government hasn't been asked to provide assistance (traditionally, we send some firefighters over during bushfire season) yet, however, we face our own threat due to the warm summer here.

The ANZAC spirit lives on.
Errinundera
09-02-2009, 23:52
Why did they not evacuate?

Your question is actually very pertinent. The Premier has announced there will be a Royal Commission into the fires and one of the issues he wants addressed is whether the current strategies are appropriate.

To put it simply the current policy is for people to have a fire plan that involves either "early" evacuation or staying to defend your house.

Early evacuation usually involves waiting for advice from the authorities. This advice will depend on the severity of the fire, its speed, and how far away it is. As a general rule, people who evacuate under these circumstances survive. The weakness of the strategy is that it relies on good and accurate information about the fire.

If a house owner chooses to defend, the authorities have clear guidelines on the preparations that need to be made beforehand (some preparations being long term such as the amount of clear area around the house). As a general rule people who defend their homes and follow all the recommendations do well. The problem with this strategy is that some fires cannot be defended against.

Survivors from the worst hit area, Kinglake, are now telling us their stories. Two things are emerging. 1) When the fire front hit, the latest advice was that the fire was in Kilmore, 40 kilometres away. The speed in which the fire travelled from Kilmore to Kinglake caught everyone by surprise. Those with an early evacuation plan did not have time to go. 2) The heat was so intense that normal defensive strategies had no chance. The force of the front blew in the windows of houses. The intense radiant heat ignited buildings within seconds.

I'm old enough to remember the Lara fire in the late sixties. A grass fire crossed the main four-lane highway between Melbourne and Geelong. A number of people were incinerated in their cars. For some years afterwards the official advice was never get in car in a fire - it is one of the most deadly places to be. This instruction seems to have been forgotten over time.

At Kinglake it seems many panicked people tried to escape in their cars. There are only three main roads out of Kinglake - an east-west road the follows the ridge line for several kilometres in each direction and very winding spur road that heads south into Melbourne. Trees fell across the roads and, with the smoke limiting visibility, pile-ups occured.

New policies are needed.
Ardchoille
10-02-2009, 00:34
They tried to evacuate. But consider the conditions:

<snip>the local flora is designed to burn. The oil in eucalypt trees is so volatile that not only does a fire spread rapidly through the forest canopy, but the trees actually explode.<snip>

So when someone speaks of "ember attack", they're not talking about dainty little firefly embers they brush off their clothes.

Even before the leading edge of the fire takes hold, people can be injured or killed by huge chunks of burning wood or entire tree branches propelled by these explosions. They rain down from the sky. One woman said for a few seconds she thought her town was being bombed.
Gauntleted Fist
10-02-2009, 00:45
It is now 173.Oh, damn. Last I saw was way lower than that.
New policies are needed. Most definitely.

This was one amazingly fast fire, though. (My dad has been following it on the news, he's a volunteer fire-fighter, and the assistant safety/disaster commissioner for our country/area.)
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 01:16
It would be good to see some subsidies for protective measures like window shutters, water storage and protective clothing. That could be done before hearing from the Royal Commission, and would fit well with the current mood of government for stimulatory spending (and probably be more stimulatory than cash grants to councils etc: it would be spent straight away and couldn't be diverted to paying down debt or long term projects.)
Svalbardania
10-02-2009, 01:37
They tried to evacuate. But consider the conditions:



So when someone speaks of "ember attack", they're not talking about dainty little firefly embers they brush off their clothes.

Even before the leading edge of the fire takes hold, people can be injured or killed by huge chunks of burning wood or entire tree branches propelled by these explosions. They rain down from the sky. One woman said for a few seconds she thought her town was being bombed.

Something else which is actually not as flippant as it sounds is that the heat and speed and sheer power of this thing caused a lot of cow dung to spontaneously combust hundreds of metres from the official fireline, and actually the poo started flying like a missle. Volunteer firefighters had to dodge flying flaming cow pats. And those things stick to houses.

But yes, the exploding eucalypts are a major problem.
Chumblywumbly
10-02-2009, 02:06
Many people were in fact evacuating, but the fires were moving faster than they could drive. They were killed when the flames overtook their vehicles.
Grief...
Errinundera
10-02-2009, 02:18
Something else which is actually not as flippant as it sounds is that the heat and speed and sheer power of this thing caused a lot of cow dung to spontaneously combust hundreds of metres from the official fireline, and actually the poo started flying like a missle. Volunteer firefighters had to dodge flying flaming cow pats. And those things stick to houses.

But yes, the exploding eucalypts are a major problem.

This is so bizarre, I'm sure you're pulling our legs.

It would be good to see some subsidies for protective measures like window shutters, water storage and protective clothing. That could be done before hearing from the Royal Commission, and would fit well with the current mood of government for stimulatory spending (and probably be more stimulatory than cash grants to councils etc: it would be spent straight away and couldn't be diverted to paying down debt or long term projects.)

I've heard one fire specialist argue for the return of the old practice of building dugouts.

I've just received this information from the Premier's office. It addresses many of the issues raised in this thread.

CURRENT SITUATION

The following losses have been confirmed:
• 173 fatalities
• 922 houses
• 197,770 hectares of agricultural pastures.

There has been significant loss and life and property across Victoria in the State’s worst ever bushfires and one of our worst ever natural disasters.

There continue to be fires of concern still burning across the State and our paid and volunteer emergency service workers and support staff are working around the clock protecting lives and assets.

Our volunteers are doing an amazing job under extremely difficult conditions but it is not over yet with weather conditions continuing to cause uncertainty and a large number of fires still active.

The CFA have been advised that due to the current strain on our emergency services and extensive road closures, residents cannot always rely on fire-fighting resources being able to get to their property.

Similarly, strong messaging both before and during the current fire season urged people to get up-to-date information from the bushfire information line and through our emergency broadcaster ABC radio - as although fire authorities are working around the clock, residents cannot always wait for advice from local fire authorities to activate their fire plan.


FIRE INFORMATION UPDATES

www.cfa.vic.gov.au/incidents/incident_summary.htm

www.dse.vic.gov.au

Victorian Bushfire Information Line: 1800 240 667

Listening to ABC Local Radio in their area.

Please be patient when accessing these web sites and the information line as due to the high volume of people seeking information there may be delays.

The CFA have advised that residents in areas which may be under threat they need to enact their fire plan and decide whether to leave or stay and defend IMMEDIATELY. Residents should not wait until the last moment to leave.

Before deciding to leave residents should check on current road closures by ringing VicRoads on 13 11 70 or by viewing the road closures online:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/NewsRoom/BushFiresRoadClosures/


People are reminded to only to ring 000 in an emergency.


GRANTS AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE

Personal hardship grants have been activated by the Minister for Police and Emergency Services Bob Cameron. Residents should contact their local council to find out how to access these grants.

For general information on the grants available visit and practical advice for people affected by bushfire visit:

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/emergency/current-events/bushfire/financial-assistance

The Prime Minister has announced a joint $10 million emergency relief fund with the Premier.

Centrelink payments of $1000 per adult, $400 per child, and up to $5000 for funeral assistance will be available immediately for fire victims and families.

Those affected can apply online or call 180 2211.

www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/emergency/vic_bushfires.htm


HOUSING

People wanting to offer accommodation to bushfire victims can register with the Victorian Bushfire Accommodation Donation Line, on 1800 006 468. There are 40 lines with operators on standby from 8am – 8pm


INSURANCE
In the event that your home is damaged or destroyed by bushfire, make contact with your insurance company as soon as possible after the incident to register your intention to claim and seek advice about the claim process under your policy. All insurance policies vary.

You should also contact your insurer to arrange for an assessment. Don’t be worried if your insurance papers have been destroyed during the bushfire, as insurance companies keep records electronically and only require the policyholder’s name and address.

If you are unable to identify your insurer you can contact the Insurance Ombudsman Service (IOS) on the toll free number 1300 780 808 during office hours. IOS will be able to provide advice and assistance with identifying your insurance company.


LIVESTOCK/AGRICULTURE

If farmers need emergency fodder or require urgent assistance in assessing burnt livestock they should register their needs by calling the DPI Customer Service Centre on 136 186.
Anyone wishing to donate fodder should call the VFF on 1300 882 833 or visit the website www.vff.org.au


RELIEF CENTRES


Town Address
Alexandra Alexandra Secondary College, Downey St
Chiltern Memorial Hall, Connes Street, Chiltern
Diamond Creek Diamond Creek Community Centre, 28 Main Hurstbridge Rd,
Healesville Healesville Memorial Hall, Maroondah Hwy
Kangaroo Flat Kangaroo Flat Senior Citizen Centre, 23 Lockwood Rd
Mt Beauty/Alpine Mt Beauty Community Centre, Kiewa Cres
Traralgon Traralgon Little Theatre, Grey St
Wallan Multipurpose Leisure Centre, Bentinck Street, Wallan
Warragul Warragul Leisure Centre, Bourke St
Whittlesea Whittlesea Community Activity Centre, Laurel St
Yarram Yarram Secondary College, James St
Yea Yea Showgrounds and Recreational Reserve, Snodgrass St


The National Registry Inquiry Service (NRIS) hotline has been activated. This number if staffed by the Red Cross and people going to relief centres are asked to register with them so that everyone is accounted for. People seeking information on loved ones should also call this number: 1800 72 7077.


DONATIONS

The Red Cross State Government Victorian Bushfire Appeal Fund has now been set up. To donate people should initially visit www.redcross.org.au or alternatively phone 1800 811 700.

While there are currently adequate supplies of blood, Victorians should be encouraged to become a regular blood donor to maintain the supply of all eight blood types are available in the long term.

Victorians can register their interest at www.donateblood.com.au




VOULNTEERS

Anyone willing to volunteer time and skills should call The Victorian Bushfire Volunteer Hotline Information Victoria on 1300 366 356 or register at www.govolunteer.com.au


IMPORTANT COMMUNITY MESSAGES


General – Fire threat

Communities across Victoria have been devastated by more than 400 bushfires that have swept across the state in the most severe weather conditions we’ve seen in our history

The fires are still burning.

We strongly urge people in threatened communities to make their decision early. People need to make the decision to stay and defend or to leave their property now.

Royal Commission

The Premier has announced we will hold a Royal Commission to look at all the issues and make sure an event like this never happens again.

The sheer scale of this terrible tragedy warrants the highest, most thorough investigation.

Our firefighters and emergency workers have done a magnificent job, saving lives and property.

We need to learn from this tragedy, so we can put in place whatever measures are needed to prevent this awful tragedy from happening again.

Stay and defend or leave early

I understand that people will want to look at a range of the policies in the aftermath of this tragedy. These issues and these policies will be assessed through the Royal Commission.

I strongly urge people to make their decisions as early as possible – whether to stay and defend their home, or to leave their property. Please make that decision as early as possible.

What we saw at the weekend was an extraordinary and tragic natural disaster where fire just engulfed towns - maybe it is time we looked at this policy and this will be part of the Royal Commission.

Fuel Reduction Burning

Since 1999 we have tripled funding to fight bushfires reaching $100 million this year.

More than 150,000 hectares of planned burning was carried out in Victoria during the 2007-08 financial year. This was significantly more than previous years – and the largest program since 1993-94.

Fuel reduction burning is carried out on the best possible advice and according to weather conditions to reduce fire threat.

The Government has provided the CFA with a record budget, an additional 520 fire trucks and delivered 181 new fulltime firefighters since coming to office.

Many issues and practices will be assessed through the Royal Commission into these terrible fires – and reduction burning will be one of them.

Arson

We have some of the toughest penalties for arson – we upped the penalties from two years to 15 years or 25 years if there is loss of life. This is equivalent to a penalty for murder.

Bushfire Appeal

Individuals and organisations wishing to make a donation to the Victorian Bushfire Appeal Fund can go to www.redcross.org.au or call the toll free number 1800 811 700.

The Victorian Government and Australian Government have together donated an initial $4 million towards the Victorian Bushfire Appeal Fund.

This is in addition $10 million provided for the Community Recovery Fund from the Victorian Government and Australian Government, announced by Premier John Brumby and Prime Minister Kevin Rudd on Monday.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 03:13
I've heard one fire specialist argue for the return of the old practice of building dugouts.

It sounds good to me, if it's done right.

If I was building a new house out of a major city I would have an excavated basement with a concrete top and a good air seal. I would anyway, for a cool daytime place, and if it wasn't practical to dig I would have a windowless ground floor of masonry for the same reason.

Not every house needs that level of protection. If you can get to a neighbour's place with such a bunker in the space of a few minutes, it's still possible to change plans with the fire in sight.
Gauntleted Fist
10-02-2009, 03:45
The state police chief, Christine Nixon, told reporters on Tuesday that one of the fires, which killed at least 21 people in the eastern region of Gippsland, was deliberately lit, and said the police "believe there may be more."So...one confirmed arsonist-set fire, and others might have been as well.

Link. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/10/asia/10australia.php)
Svalbardania
10-02-2009, 03:46
Errinundera, I'm not pulling your leg, it's actually true. Didn't you ever light cow dung when you were a wee 'un?

Anyway, I just made an appointment to donate blood. Seem's the Premier's call has been answered, the next time I could get was Friday week. Seriously. Solid booked up for a week and a half. How awesome is that?
Svalbardania
10-02-2009, 03:55
Incidentally, Christine Nixon has officially stepped down (http://www.theage.com.au/national/nixon-stands-down-to-head-up-bushfire-taskforce-20090210-82sb.html) as Chief Commissioner of the Victoria Police to head up a special taskforce. Not only is it a brilliant political move on her part, it also shows some serious effort is going into this thing. You'd hate to be one of the arsonists right about now.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 04:05
Incidentally, Christine Nixon has officially stepped down (http://www.theage.com.au/national/nixon-stands-down-to-head-up-bushfire-taskforce-20090210-82sb.html) as Chief Commissioner of the Victoria Police to head up a special taskforce. Not only is it a brilliant political move on her part, it also shows some serious effort is going into this thing. You'd hate to be one of the arsonists right about now.

It's a complicated crime though. When you try to identify what benefit the firebug gets from the crime, you have to conclude that they're somewhat masochistic and want to be hated.

(We could really use a more perjorative term than "firebug" but "arsonist" isn't it. The crime of arson covers insurance fraud, attempted murder and compulsive love of fire ... this seems a different matter from all of those, more akin to terrorism or school shootings. These people want to make news.)
Ardchoille
10-02-2009, 04:06
I've heard one fire specialist argue for the return of the old practice of building dugouts.

I heard one vox pop where a guy was saying, "Thank god my wife's a nagger."

Apparently she'd been at him for months to build a dugout, and the weekend before last he'd finally said, "All right, all right, I'll do it!"

He did a bit of other fire prevention work while he was at it. Their house was saved.
Rotovia-
10-02-2009, 04:42
To the people out there deliberately lighting fires: get the fuck out of our country, because we will find you, and we will hold you accountable for the men, women, and children you have burned to death
Boonytopia
10-02-2009, 08:53
I've found out that my brother's friend didn't die, but sadly his father did. They had two houses on the property & they separated to defend each one. The father's house burnt to the ground, but the the friend saved his. He saw that the main house was destroyed, then went to his neighbour's place, where his mother & 3 other people were sheltering in a dam. Their house was burning. He drove them out of there at some time during the night, in a car with only metal rims because the tyres had burnt, chainsawing his way through the trees blocking the road. He got them all to safety, but his mum is in the hospital in intensive care. I'd say he saved their lives. He went back up there today with the police and identified his father's body.

I can't imagine enduring what he has had to go through.
Boonytopia
10-02-2009, 09:06
I've also heard that my boss at my last job is unaccounted for, but that hasn't been confirmed. I sincerely hope he got out, because he's got 5 young kids.
Imperial isa
10-02-2009, 09:10
US morning show say we have 400 fire burning ??
Greal
10-02-2009, 09:41
Its unbelievable anyone would do this.

My cousin is in Victoria, hopefully in Melbourne. Hopefully.
The Archregimancy
10-02-2009, 10:32
Turns out everyone I know in South Gippsland are safe, and my friends just north of Whittlesea are shaken but in one piece (and their house is the only standing structure left on their run). One of my wife's cousins lives in Upper Ferntree Gully, and they've apparently had a small fire, but nothing serious. Nothing compared to what Boonytopia's reporting, anyway.

From what I was reading last night (UK time), the Yarra Valley, especially the Healesville area, is going through a bad patch. My wife's uncle (who lives a bit past Ringwood) tells us that all of the endangered species have been evacuated from Healesville Sanctuary. I imagine 2009 will be a poor year for Yarra Valley wine, which isn't as trivial a point as it may seem given that the Healesville area and the Valley as a whole are a relatively important income generator for wine and tourism.


Latest death toll estimate on The Age's website is 'up to 300', though confirmed is 'only' 173.


It seems very, very surreal to be sitting here in an office in Cambridgeshire, shivering through the UK's coldest winter in decades, and the heaviest snowfall in 20 years, while worrying about friends and family half a world away.
Alexandrian Ptolemais
10-02-2009, 12:51
I happened to bump into these pictures - it gives you an idea of how intense some of these fires were

http://photosbymatt.fotopic.net/c1650090.html
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 13:02
To the people out there deliberately lighting fires: get the fuck out of our country, because we will find you, and we will hold you accountable for the men, women, and children you have burned to death

Anger and blame are each a bad basis to approach a solution from.

Yes, deliberately lighting fires might be murder. It might be something even worse (terrorism?)

Harden the targets, and it doesn't matter so much if the cause of death is an act of human will or an act of nature or god. Fewer people die, and that should be our primary concern for next time.

There will be next times.

Punishing firebugs harshly won't stop future firebugs. It may even, by the "social masochism" I mentioned above, recruit new and even less predictable fire starters. Giving them even more hatred, publicly expressed and overwhelmingly consensual, might even make them worse.

Harden the targets. Protect lives firstly, against wildfire. Protect homes and sentimental belongings secondly. Protect agrarian assets also.

Going after "perpetrators" when we are (despite good preparations for known vulnerabilities) vulnerable to wildfire of various causes, will cost more lives. No degree of punishment stops crime, even less does it stop negligence (e.g. cigarette butts), and it doesn't touch "acts of God" like dry lightning.

Take the power to kill people away from those criminals! Also punish them harshly for trying to take life and destroy property. Thus, we remove their incentive AND give a counter-incentive.

Grief is wasted in anger. It can even do harm ("Freedom on the march", anybody?) and spread the disaster more widely.

We thought we were safe. We were wrong.

We love our bush, our flammable native vegetation surrounding our houses. If we need to pick and choose vegetation, if we need to build less pleasant or more expensive houses to make that safe ... that's what we should do. We (and I speak as one who lives in a dangerous environment, the flammable and therefore dangerous surrounds of native eucalypt forest) can modify our own behaviour, not rely solely on The Law to modify the behaviour of everyone else.

It is madness -- the madness of anger -- to think that harsher punishments for the use of a weapon we put into a mad person's hands will make us safe.
Rotovia-
10-02-2009, 13:14
Anger and blame are each a bad basis to approach a solution from.

Yes, deliberately lighting fires might be murder. It might be something even worse (terrorism?)

Harden the targets, and it doesn't matter so much if the cause of death is an act of human will or an act of nature or god. Fewer people die, and that should be our primary concern for next time.

There will be next times.

Punishing firebugs harshly won't stop future firebugs. It may even, by the "social masochism" I mentioned above, recruit new and even less predictable fire starters. Giving them even more hatred, publicly expressed and overwhelmingly consensual, might even make them worse.

Harden the targets. Protect lives firstly, against wildfire. Protect homes and sentimental belongings secondly. Protect agrarian assets also.

Going after "perpetrators" when we are (despite good preparations for known vulnerabilities) vulnerable to wildfire of various causes, will cost more lives. No degree of punishment stops crime, even less does it stop negligence (e.g. cigarette butts), and it doesn't touch "acts of God" like dry lightning.

Take the power to kill people away from those criminals! Also punish them harshly for trying to take life and destroy property. Thus, we remove their incentive AND give a counter-incentive.

Grief is wasted in anger. It can even do harm ("Freedom on the march", anybody?) and spread the disaster more widely.

We thought we were safe. We were wrong.

We love our bush, our flammable native vegetation surrounding our houses. If we need to pick and choose vegetation, if we need to build less pleasant or more expensive houses to make that safe ... that's what we should do. We (and I speak as one who lives in a dangerous environment, the flammable and therefore dangerous surrounds of native eucalypt forest) can modify our own behaviour, not rely solely on The Law to modify the behaviour of everyone else.

It is madness -- the madness of anger -- to think that harsher punishments for the use of a weapon we put into a mad person's hands will make us safe.

I don't care if harsher penalties will deter future offenders, if you burn people to death, you void your rights
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 13:25
I don't care if harsher penalties will deter future offenders, if you burn people to death, you void your rights

And you want to void the rights of some other. Because you are angry. Mad.

I repeat the first sentence. Grief is wasted in anger.

It might not show, but I feel the grief. I won't boast of what I have done. But I speak against the anger.

We can stop this from happening again. Relief efforts are entirely commendable, but money and care don't make up for lost lives.

Let's save lives. If you think harsher penalties or lower standards of legal proof for fire-starting will save lives in future fires, explain how.
Errinundera
10-02-2009, 13:36
I happened to bump into these pictures - it gives you an idea of how intense some of these fires were

http://photosbymatt.fotopic.net/c1650090.html

F**k

f**k

f**k

I lived in Yarra Glen until moving back to Melbourne in May 2007. I know the Billabong Bridge and the railway station so well. In fact, I know and love so much of the countryside that has been in the fire areas. Some of the photos in the Errinundera NSwiki pages are from these areas.

This picture on the Goongerah page is actually from Mt Disappointment which was part of the Kinglake fire complex. I don't know what has become of this forest:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/WallabyCreekSmall.jpg

These trees from the Monkeytop page are actually at Mt St Leonard above Toolangi - the area is part of the Healesville-Maroondah fire complex. I don't know what has become of this forest either.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/Monda.jpg

Although this giant on the Rooty Break page collapsed not long ago, the Mt Monda forest where it was located, near Healesville and Toolangi, is also part of the Healesville-Maroondah fire complex.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/MondaBigTreesmall.jpg

These fires are heartbreaking on many levels.
Rotovia-
10-02-2009, 13:47
Let's save lives. If you think harsher penalties or lower standards of legal proof for fire-starting will save lives in future fires, explain how.

I specifically said I did not, nor did I suggest lowering our standard of proof, so how about we stop arguing straw-men?

This has nothing to do with anger, it has nothing to do with prevention, it has to do with what penalty we as a society think is appropriate for someone who deliberately forced thousands of people to endure unimaginable terror, and the death and injury of hundreds of others.
Errinundera
10-02-2009, 13:52
On a lighter note, this bloke's sangfroid appeals to me:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Hose.png
Ardchoille
10-02-2009, 14:01
I don't care if harsher penalties will deter future offenders, if you burn people to death, you void your rights

We're a society built on law. To void anyone's rights is to make us a different sort of society.

Law is not revenge. Law is warning, penalty, restitution. Its processes come after the event.

The "hardening the target" Bunnysaurus talks about may save lives and property. This may affect arsonists. If what they're seeking is some sort of glorious destruction, it may make it inglorious, minor, by reducing their ability to destroy. But that's a side effect.

Fire protection isn't about arsonists, it's about saving more of the people who face fires we know will happen, one way or another.

This is not to say arson isn't a crime. It can be anything from criminal negligence to manslaughter or murder or mass murder, depending on intent and what can be proven.

It may be the sort of thing that makes it necessary for society to protect itself by never releasing the criminal, like the Port Arthur massacre or the backpacker murders.

But it's something we deal with by court law, not by lynch law, using the systems we've built up to separate our collective emotions from our collective need.

EDIT: I see from your later post I've misunderstood your position. I don't question the need for harsh penalties. I do think that that's something to look at later, after we've dealt with the practicalities of changing bush living to save more lives.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 14:17
These fires are heartbreaking on many levels.

I agree with that, as well as every other post you have made to this thread.

(For non-Aussies, I recommend in particular this post, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14495660).)

How we react to it is all that concerns me. It is a vast precedent, and a human life, or a family's home, is reckoned more valuable now than it was decades ago when the precedent of Ash Wednesday was set.

Surely building standards will become more restrictive. Council approval of remote residences in bushland will become more restrictive. But also, the right of native bushland to exist at all will be challenged, with more power to developers to fell it and replace it with lawns or concrete to protect human life.

This balance, between conservation of nature and conservation of human life, will of course favour human life. Trees will be felled, habitat destroyed. I accept that, but I also call for some limitation of the "divine right" of humans to live where they damn well please. If people think (and many do) that they can have their cake and eat it too, and live in undisturbed bushland without the dangers and hardship that that entails, then they are plain wrong.

Looking at it the other way around, it's like expecting to have the advantages of living in a city without the dangers and hardships of the same.
Errinundera
10-02-2009, 14:27
...Surely building standards will become more restrictive. Council approval of remote residences in bushland will become more restrictive. But also, the right of native bushland to exist at all will be challenged, with more power to developers to fell it and replace it with lawns or concrete to protect human life.

This balance, between conservation of nature and conservation of human life, will of course favour human life. Trees will be felled, habitat destroyed. I accept that, but I also call for some limitation of the "divine right" of humans to live where they damn well please. If people think (and many do) that they can have their cake and eat it too, and live in undisturbed bushland without the dangers and hardship that that entails, then they are plain wrong.

Looking at it the other way around, it's like expecting to have the advantages of living in a city without the dangers and hardships of the same.

A dream of mine - to own a bush block - faded last weekend. I now question whether it is appropriate.
Gauntleted Fist
10-02-2009, 14:34
The responses that I'm reading about the donations going to the fire-relief effort are pretty amazing.

$30 million in two days. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25036313-12377,00.html) G
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 15:46
We're a society built on law. To void anyone's rights is to make us a different sort of society.

Law is not revenge. Law is warning, penalty, restitution. Its processes come after the event.

The "hardening the target" Bunnysaurus talks about may save lives and property.

"May" nothing. It DOES.

The guidelines of fire protection, in which the volunteer firefighting organizations of the states have had the primary role in drafting, were not wrong. They were not wrong, in light of available information. They were a very reasonable compromise against the unwillingness of people to live in, and pay for, windowless bunkers with an acre of concrete skirting around them.

It's just that that our available information has suddenly changed for the worse. Protection of homes was inadequate, the deadline for evacuation was inadequate. And of course, a lot of people didn't meet the guidelines.

That isn't anybody's fault. Those whose individual fear and caution led them to exceed the guidelines (over-defend or evacuate earlier) survived better.

And as with any disaster, there were factors of pure luck. Ill-defended houses survived, well-defended ones burnt with their occupants. Human will isn't the be-all and end-all of it. It's tragedy, the will of imaginary gods.

Cynicism tells me that the arsonists will get more than their share of attention. We will fix apon them as the "cause" of this horrible disaster, and go easy on those whose ignorance of fully public, government-endorsed fire defence advice was ignored.

And I will be accused of "blaming the victims."

I don't care. It isn't about blame for me, it's about preventing it from happening again. If my house burns, and I die trying to defend it: that's my fault. I have had the warning, and every cent I spent on my wine should have been spent saving up for a diesel-powered pump.
BunnySaurus Bugsii
10-02-2009, 16:20
A dream of mine - to own a bush block - faded last weekend. I now question whether it is appropriate.

Only you know what is "appropriate."

If you want bush, custody and husbandry of some native vegetation (I feel that is less than full "ownership" anyway, it has a history) then fire is a part of what you take on.

What you build on it, though, yes that could be a dead loss. It might be uninsurable from now on. Insurance companies took a huge hit, and they will pass it on.

If you really want a share of the land, then hell it's an opportunity. "Fire-sale" prices on vulnerable properties, build what you believe is a defensible house. By the time it's finished, your regrowth will be going well, you can cull and plant in the meantime.

It might be a great opportunity, economically speaking. I'd do it myself if I had money.
Ardchoille
11-02-2009, 03:24
"May" nothing. It DOES.


That was the journalist's non-commital "may", Bunny, hon. As in "the sun may rise tomorrow". Don't rouse on me, it took 30 years to learn it!

Re the windowless concrete bunkers: perhaps, instead, we could picture a bush full of hobbit-homes tunnelled into real or built hillsides, with maybe the occasional disposable shanty-style structure above ground for practicalities? (Note: Number One Nong speaking here, I know nothing of fire-safe building.)

Angle on the danger of rush-to-legislate: Victoria is the only state where police and fire authorities do not have compulsory evacuation powers. If they had, and if they had made people evacuate, there may have been more people on the roads and hence more deaths.

We will fix apon them as the "cause" of this horrible disaster, and go easy on those whose ignorance of fully public, government-endorsed fire defence advice was ignored.

And I will be accused of "blaming the victims."

I don't care. It isn't about blame for me, it's about preventing it from happening again.

If you are accused of that I'm betting you'll be in good company, including the Royal Commission witnesses. It'd be crazy to deny that there will be Darwin Award nonminees out there, but their being dumb doesn't make their deaths any more acceptable. There are also others who died because this particular fire was so out of any ordinary experience that it was impossible to plan for. Now it is part of our collective experience and we can plan for the next one -- so yay for those like you who've begun trying.
Trostia
11-02-2009, 03:32
My sympathies go out to anyone affected by the fire. Where I live in CA we've had two fires this past half-year, and one of them is still suspected arson. I have absolutely no sympathy or lenient attitudes toward arson at this point and if it was arson in this case, the person(s) guilty is/are basically mass murderer(ers) in my book.

Throw them in prison. Never let them out.
Boonytopia
11-02-2009, 09:29
The Premier has already talked about whether building standards in fire prone areas need to be improved & whether fire proof bunkers should be included.

I think the royal commission is a good idea. It will be slow to report, but it will be wide ranging, thorough, free of political bias and not afraid to criticise where criticism is due.
Collectivity
11-02-2009, 09:40
If this little piggy lived in the bush, he would build his house with brick - and have a cellar with readily available oxygen.
Bushfires may be part of Australia's future now.
Dododecapod
11-02-2009, 09:43
If this little piggy lived in the bush, he would build his house with brick - and have a cellar with readily available oxygen.
Bushfires may be part of Australia's future now.

Dude, they've always been here. Part of why I'm a city dweller.
Boonytopia
11-02-2009, 09:43
If this little piggy lived in the bush, he would build his house with brick - and have a cellar with readily available oxygen.
Bushfires may be part of Australia's future now.

They always have been a part of Australian life, but the evidence would suggest that they're getting more frequent, more intense, more dangerous and even less controlable.
Collectivity
11-02-2009, 09:50
We've been seeing the best of people's behaviour this week - maybe like Britain during the Blitz.
Mind you, I'll be glad when the papers are whingeing about public transport or how dare the Kiwis beat us in crucket.
Boonytopia
11-02-2009, 09:58
This article (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25037492-661,00.html) & graphic gives a bit of an explanation of why these particular have been so deadly.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6480693,00.jpg

This one's (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/people-died-doing-exactly-what-they-were-told-to-do-20090210-83nz.html?page=-1) a really good insight into why, even with the best preparation, so many people were caught out & died.
Lapse
11-02-2009, 13:33
They always have been a part of Australian life, but the evidence would suggest that they're getting more frequent,
More dickheads throwing cigarette butts out car windows/arsonistsmore intense,
(besides, the frequency isn't necessarily increasing (every summer is bushfire season in Victoria), but rather the media reports are increasing. There have been 3 major fires that have claimed lots of lices, Black Friday -1939(VIC), Ash Wednesday - 1983(VIC, SA), Black Tues-1967 (TAS), and Black Sat - 2009 (VIC)

dry fauna + several years since a big one
more dangerous
Environmentalists and local councils kicking up a fuss whenever someone tries to clear the land around their house so they are at less risk
People expanding more - more houses on land that there were previously none
and even less controlable.
The same environmentalists and local councils and parks and wildlife services kicking up a fuss every time they try to create a fire break/back burn

Plus, we only have 200 years of data to go off. The last 200 years might have been very little activity and just now it is starting to pick back up

The responses that I'm reading about the donations going to the fire-relief effort are pretty amazing.

$30 million in two days. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25036313-12377,00.html) G

Only $1.50 donated per person in Australia.
Or enough to rebuild 150 homes (not furnishing them)

I lived in Whittlesea about 10 years ago, up on one of the bush tracks near Mt Dissapointment. I have heard from some of my friends a couple of properties away that they had the fire on their doorstep. The problem is not one person in particular, and realistically, bush fire is always something that we had to take into consideration. When I was 8, my father was showing myself, my brother and sister how to properly extinguish a fire. During hotter months we would test our pumps, hoses and extinguishers every week. Fortunatly, we only had to go through 1.5 summers at Whittlesea, and were only ever close to 1 fairly small(relative) bushfire. Our house was on top of a hill (bad) and had a decent amount of trees and grass around (bad). We lived knowing that we might have 10 minutes warning before a fire came roaring up the hill onto our house.

I would rather deal with floods any day.
James Bluntus
13-02-2009, 01:10
I would like to extend my sorrows to the Victorian Bushfire Victims with 181 dead and 1800 homes destroyed. I hope they can rebuild after this tradgedy
Ardchoille
13-02-2009, 02:39
Anyone tried to give blood for the burns victims? Our local's had to turn people away.

The rain we're having in NSW couldn't have timed it better. *fears floods*
Svalbardania
13-02-2009, 14:00
Anyone tried to give blood for the burns victims? Our local's had to turn people away.

The rain we're having in NSW couldn't have timed it better. *fears floods*

Ya, I booked in to donate blood. The first available space was a week and a half away. Fuckin win by blood donors.

And I'm still loving my idea for a giant hinge on the NSW/QLD border, so that we can periodically tip QLD's floods onto our bushfires.
Dododecapod
13-02-2009, 16:54
Got turned away. I had oral surgery five months ago - have to wait another thirty days before I can give again.

I can understand the reasoning, but...
Boonytopia
14-02-2009, 03:27
I can't give blood because I lived for 2 years (and ate meat) in the UK during the mad cow period in the 90s.

Police have arrested a bloke they suspect lit the Bunyip/Churchill fire, that has so far killed 21 people.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/man-on-arson-death-charge-20090213-877s.html

I can understand how people feel, but I can't agree with people who are calling for the death penalty and particularly those who are calling for him to be lynched or burnt. We are not a barbaric nation and the rule of law must be upheld, otherwise we're no better than the person or persons who commit these atrocities.
Svalbardania
14-02-2009, 10:00
I can't give blood because I lived for 2 years (and ate meat) in the UK during the mad cow period in the 90s.

Police have arrested a bloke they suspect lit the Bunyip/Churchill fire, that has so far killed 21 people.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/man-on-arson-death-charge-20090213-877s.html

I can understand how people feel, but I can't agree with people who are calling for the death penalty and particularly those who are calling for him to be lynched or burnt. We are not a barbaric nation and the rule of law must be upheld, otherwise we're no better than the person or persons who commit these atrocities.

Well said.
Ardchoille
14-02-2009, 13:17
I'm fairly hopeful that even if it went to a vote we would reject the reintroduction of the death penalty.

The latest stats I can find were just after the Bali bombings, and though support was what I'd call high (46%), the Council for Civil Liberties (http://www.nswccl.org.au/docs/pdf/bp3%202005%20dp%20paper.pdf) says even that survey showed it was declining.

Arrgh, if I go on I'll be dragging this thread off-topic. You're right, we're not barbarians. So, to wrench it back, what do you think of the media coverage?

Guy Rundle on Crikey.com accuses The Australian of demonising the greens (the movement, not just the party) as the mob who let the fires happen.

Whaddya reckon, have The Oz or any newspapers, broadcasters or TV channels made particular idiots of themselves over the fires?

I'm a little squeamish over one of the TV ads for the appeal: it ran pics of some of the people confirmed dead, with "for the dead" or "remember the dead" or some such. I dunno, good cause and all; it seemed like exploitation, but I guess their relatives must have given permission, and I suppose in a way it would help to think that at least some good could come out of their loss.
Boonytopia
14-02-2009, 14:57
Andrew Bolt wrote a very anti green, anti climate change, factually incorrect opinion piece in the Herald Sun, but then again, that's Andrew Bolt.

Other than that, I think The Age (http://theage.com.au) & the Herald Sun (http://heraldsun.com.au) have done a very good job of covering the fires as they unfolded.

The Australian's not a Melbourne based newspaper, so I haven't really read much of its coverage. I have to say though, I think this (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25051344-5018722,00.html) is an outstanding article describing how the events unfolded & really conveys the helplessness that most people experienced.

The TV news coverage has been best on the ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/news/) & Channel 9, most in depth & on the scene. Channel 7's has been pretty good, but Channel 10 & SBS, because their newsrooms are Sydney based, have been somewhat lacking.

ABC local radio (774 here in Melbourne (http://www.abc.net.au/melbourne/)) has been head & shoulders above everyone though. Their information has been the most reliable & up to date, in many instances better than the info that the emergency services had, or were providing.
Boonytopia
14-02-2009, 15:30
Excerpt from an article (http://www.theage.com.au/national/ive-never-seen-anything-like-it-the-whole-town--20090214-87pi.html?page=-1) in The Age.

Mrs Jones and her husband, Ivor, a retired Baptist pastor, lost their home and all their possessions.

"It's terribly, terribly sad," says Mr Jones, 74, who will preside over a memorial church service in nearby Buxton this morning. "But I believe as Christians that we can have hope."

He says he prefers to think the victims are not dead but "promoted to glory". (my emphasis)

I have to say, I find this quite sickening. It would probably have to be the worst euphemism for death that I've ever come across. The cold, hard fact is they're dead & no "prettying up" the wording will make it any different. The dead deserve to be acknowledged & remembered, not "promoted to glory".
Dododecapod
14-02-2009, 15:35
Excerpt from an article (http://www.theage.com.au/national/ive-never-seen-anything-like-it-the-whole-town--20090214-87pi.html?page=-1) in The Age.

Mrs Jones and her husband, Ivor, a retired Baptist pastor, lost their home and all their possessions.

"It's terribly, terribly sad," says Mr Jones, 74, who will preside over a memorial church service in nearby Buxton this morning. "But I believe as Christians that we can have hope."

He says he prefers to think the victims are not dead but "promoted to glory". (my emphasis)

I have to say, I find this quite sickening. It would probably have to be the worst euphemism for death that I've ever come across. The cold, hard fact is they're dead & no "prettying up" the wording will make it any different. The dead deserve to be acknowledged & remembered, not "promoted to glory".

Dead is dead. I think we're all old enough now not to need silly euphemisms.
Ardchoille
14-02-2009, 16:12
That one is a stunner of a report (the one Boony linked).

Effects of these things last so long. We were flooded out two years ago. Now it's been raining for three days and, though I know it's not like before (because the wind is not as high, the ground is not as dry and the rain is soaking in instead of pooling on top) I'm still fighting the urge every few minutes to move the car/kids/cats to higher ground.

But at least with floods you can see them coming. That article really underlines how fast the fire moved and what force it had.

A friend was telling me that it's not so much seeing the flames as hearing them. He said it seemed to go deeper than just sound and paralyse him. And the fires he'd been in weren't a patch on this one.

The ABC has sure earned its coupla cents a day. It's amazing how the phones -- landlines as well -- and the net kept operating so long.

And now there's this class action looming against the Vic government and the power suppliers.

Maybe that looney American church guy Fred Phelps should start another website: godhatesvictoria.com.

EDIT: Re "promoted to glory": the Salvos put that in their funeral notices, but since they're an Army it makes a bit more sense. Maybe the Baptist bloke just picked it up from them. Euphemisms for death can be enlightening, the way they encapsulate attitudes -- Not Lost, Just Gone Before, and all that.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
15-02-2009, 03:19
I have to say though, I think this (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25051344-5018722,00.html) is an outstanding article describing how the events unfolded & really conveys the helplessness that most people experienced.
Oh my God. Horrific beyond imagination.
Boonytopia
15-02-2009, 04:39
Oh my God. Horrific beyond imagination.

This (http://www.theage.com.au/national/listen-to-that-roar-its-coming-20090215-87y8.html?page=-1) is another really good article, this time from The Age. It gives you some sort of an idea of what people experienced, how they were prepared, but just how quickly it went from nothing to an unstoppable, unsurvivable, raging 100km/h firestorm.
Boonytopia
15-02-2009, 04:51
*snip*

Maybe that looney American church guy Fred Phelps should start another website: godhatesvictoria.com.

Speaking of Phelps, how about this absolute wanker.

http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2009/02/10/media-release-abortion-laws-to-blame-for-bush-fires/

CTFM leader, Pastor Danny Nalliah said he would spearhead an effort to provide every assistance to devastated communities, although he was not surprised by the bush fires due to a dream he had last October relating to consequences of the abortion laws passed in Victoria.

He said these bushfires have come as a result of the incendiary abortion laws which decimate life in the womb.

“Yesterday (Monday 9th February 2009), the front page of the Herald Sun newspaper reported “The Darkest hour for Victoria”. A few months ago the news media should have reported “The darkest hour for the unborn” but unfortunately the “Decriminalization of Abortion bill” went through parliament and was passed, thus making many people call Victoria ‘the baby killing state of Australia,’” Mr Nalliah said.

He said on November 7 last year we had sent out an email to our national network and a posting on our website (www.catchthefire.com.au) carried an urgent post titled, ‘STOP PRESS. URGENT PRAYER NEEDED REGARDING AUSTRALIA, ESPECIALLY THE STATE OF VICTORIA’ following a dream he had on the 21st of October 2008, which he shared with his team on 22nd October.

Following is an excerpt from the dream which was published in the article.

“In my dream I saw fire everywhere with flames burning very high and uncontrollably. With this I woke up from my dream with the interpretation as the following words came to me in a flash from the Spirit of God.

That His conditional protection has been removed from the nation of Australia, in particular Victoria, for approving the slaughter of innocent children in the womb.”

These sorts of people just sicken me, I wish he would just crawl back under his rock, never to be heard from again.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
15-02-2009, 18:34
This (http://www.theage.com.au/national/listen-to-that-roar-its-coming-20090215-87y8.html?page=-1) is another really good article, this time from The Age. It gives you some sort of an idea of what people experienced, how they were prepared, but just how quickly it went from nothing to an unstoppable, unsurvivable, raging 100km/h firestorm.
I clicked on to another article on that page which I thought gives a really good overview of the issues that have to be looked at now (controlled burns, if the old "stay & defend your home" adage is still applicable today, etc.): http://www.theage.com.au/national/lessons-from-the-ashes-20090215-8810.html?page=-1
Errinundera
16-02-2009, 05:11
The terms of reference for the Royal Commission into the 2009 Bushfires have just been released. The Royal Commission has been set up:

FOR THE PURPOSE of inquiring into and reporting on the following matters:

1. The causes and circumstances of the bushfires which burned in various parts of Victoria in late January and in February 2009 (“2009 Bushfires”).

2. The preparation and planning by governments, emergency services, other entities, the community and households for bushfires in Victoria, including current laws, policies, practices, resources and strategies for the prevention, identification, evaluation, management and communication of bushfire threats and risks.

3. All aspects of the response to the 2009 Bushfires, particularly measures taken to control the spread of the fires and measures taken to protect life and private and public property, including but not limited to:
a) immediate management, response and recovery;
b) resourcing, overall coordination and deployment; and
c) equipment and communication systems.

4. The measures taken to prevent or minimise disruption to the supply of essential services such as power and water during the 2009 Bushfires.

5. Any other matters that you deem appropriate in relation to the 2009 Bushfires.

AND WE direct you to make such recommendations arising out of your inquiry as you consider appropriate, including recommendations for governments, emergency services, other entities and the community on:

6. The preparation and planning for future bushfire threats and risks, particularly the prevention of loss of life.

7. Land use planning and management, including urban and regional planning.

8. The fireproofing of housing and other buildings, including the materials used in construction.

9. The emergency response to bushfires.

10. Public communication and community advice systems and strategies.

11. Training, infrastructure, and overall resourcing needs.

The full document came to me as a PDF. If I can find a link, I'll post it.
Boonytopia
17-02-2009, 10:38
It will be interesting to see how many of the eventuall recommedations from the royal commission are adopted by the government. I think there will be intense lobbying from the building industry not to increase building standards by much, if at all.

The death toll has been revised up to 200 now, with many still missing & unaccounted for since Saturday.
Errinundera
17-02-2009, 11:57
It will be interesting to see how many of the eventuall recommedations from the royal commission are adopted by the government. I think there will be intense lobbying from the building industry not to increase building standards by much, if at all...

In which case we will deserve a shellacking. And you can quote me on that November next year.
Ardchoille
17-02-2009, 12:17
Among the dead is a firefighter:

Firefighter killed near Marysville

A firefighter has been killed near Marysville, north-east of Melbourne tonight.
Police say the firefighter died when a tree fell onto the car he was in shortly after 7:00pm (AEDT).

In a separate incident, a NSW firefighter was taken to hospital after being hit by a falling tree branch north-east of Melbourne.

He was injured while fighting fires near Healesville.

His injuries are not thought to be serious.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/17/2494107.htm
Alexandrian Ptolemais
17-02-2009, 13:53
This (http://www.theage.com.au/national/listen-to-that-roar-its-coming-20090215-87y8.html?page=-1) is another really good article, this time from The Age. It gives you some sort of an idea of what people experienced, how they were prepared, but just how quickly it went from nothing to an unstoppable, unsurvivable, raging 100km/h firestorm.

Extremely horrific; I just hope that I never find myself in such a situation. While New Zealand doesn't have the major problems with bushfires that Australia has, Auckland sits on a volcanic field and that could go off at any time.
Errinundera
17-02-2009, 23:41
Here's a link to the Teague Royal Commision Terms of Reference (http://library.parliament.vic.gov.au/publications/pdfs/RC_Terms_of-Reference-160209.pdf).

Americans may be amused by the quaint preamble.
Boonytopia
18-02-2009, 10:30
The police (http://www.theage.com.au/national/fire-death-toll-unlikely-to-rise-much-more-police-20090218-8b98.html?page=-1) have now said that they don't think the toll will rise much higher than the current 201, which is some slight relief I suppose. The focus will now really start to turn to the royal commission & rebuilding.
Ardchoille
18-02-2009, 21:27
Here's a link to the Teague Royal Commision Terms of Reference (http://library.parliament.vic.gov.au/publications/pdfs/RC_Terms_of-Reference-160209.pdf).

Americans may be amused by the quaint preamble.


Getting a broken link here, mate. Thought it might be my work's recent ban on all the interesting sites, but I tried it at home and got the same. Also tried yesterday to access through vic.gov.au and the parliamentary library, but no go.
UNIverseVERSE
18-02-2009, 21:47
If someone has a copy of the PDF, I have webspace and can host it for you.
Errinundera
18-02-2009, 23:30
Getting a broken link here, mate. Thought it might be my work's recent ban on all the interesting sites, but I tried it at home and got the same. Also tried yesterday to access through vic.gov.au and the parliamentary library, but no go.

Weirdorama. It works for me here at work. Must be a page restricted to Parliamentary staff.

If someone has a copy of the PDF, I have webspace and can host it for you.

I have copied it as a PDF - how can I get it to you?
Tmutarakhan
18-02-2009, 23:36
I have copied it as a PDF - how can I get it to you?
Send him a TG or a Private Message requesting an e-mail addy.
UNIverseVERSE
18-02-2009, 23:58
Weirdorama. It works for me here at work. Must be a page restricted to Parliamentary staff.



I have copied it as a PDF - how can I get it to you?

Should have thought of that, shouldn't I? Check your TGs.
Errinundera
19-02-2009, 01:12
Should have thought of that, shouldn't I? Check your TGs.

I've sent it to you.

Again, thanks for your help.
UNIverseVERSE
19-02-2009, 12:37
Argh, just after I'd gone to bed.

Anyway, for all and sundry, the following address should now work

http://b.armory.com/~xyzzy/RC_Terms_of-Reference-160209.pdf
Ardchoille
19-02-2009, 13:18
Ah, thank you, and I see what Errinundera means about "quaint".

I must have been NSing too much lately. It reads to me like a WA proposal. :$
Rotovia-
19-02-2009, 14:15
Ah, thank you, and I see what Errinundera means about "quaint".

I must have been NSing too much lately. It reads to me like a WA proposal. :$

Letters Patent often read like a motion
Errinundera
20-02-2009, 05:36
Thanks, UNIverseVERSE.

There's an interesting article on the ABC website by Quentin Dempster:

Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/20/2497095.htm)

"To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle" - George Orwell.

Victorian taxpayers are about to fund a full-scale royal commission into the catastrophic bushfires of February 7 in which 208 people - probably more - were burnt to death.

There will be no blame. Everything will be on the table: the adequacy of prescribed preventative burning or hazard reduction; the lethal crime of arson; escape clearways; warning alarm systems; 'go or stay' risk assessment and evacuation procedures; fireproof bunkers; planning regulations; building codes; the adequacy of fire fighting resources; and the usefulness of the forest fire danger index.

Submissions from everyone will be welcomed. Such is the local and national trauma and grief that the inquiry is expected to be therapeutic for those who need and want to tell their stories and those who listen to them.

It may be a year to 18 months before the royal commission completes its work.

It is significant to note that two stakeholder groups have already come to concluded views: the 13,000 professional firefighters of Australia and the Climate Institute, which commissions scientific research in Australia into fires and global atmospheric warming.

Climate Institute CEO John Connor told Stateline NSW (on February 20, 2009) that in his organisation's concluded view: "These are the fires of climate change that we've seen in Victoria and perhaps indeed in Port Lincoln in South Australia in 2005. Climate change is not just about warmer weather. It's about wilder weather. Climate change costs ... climate change kills".

In 2007 the Climate Institute (www.climateinstitute.org.au) commissioned research by the Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre, the Bureau of Meteorology and CSIRO Marine and Atmosphere Research. The researchers produced a paper, "Bushfire Weather in Southeast Australia", which, like actuaries for the insurance industry, projected extreme and catastrophic fire weather risks for the regions of Australia through each increment in global atmospheric warming.

The paper did not then declare Sydney's 'Black Christmas' bushfires in late 2001, the Canberra bushfires in January 2003 or the 2003 and 2007 eastern Victorian bushfire to be directly related to climate change. The language was equivocal: "The recent observed rise in fire danger may be due to a mix of both natural variability and human-induced climate change. The relative importance of these two factors is not known at this time. Observations from the next few years to decades will allow the determination of the role played by each of these factors".

After the deadly Victorian bushfires of February 2009, the Climate Institute is now unequivocal. These were climate change fires. It is expected to make such a definitive submission and ask the royal commission to commission further research. There is much at stake: the lives of Australians living in bush settings; insurance premiums for all Australian property owners; the national economic impact from a massive increase in fire protection costs.

While some politicians have accepted that climate change is behind the exponential increase in extreme fire weather, no government - state, territory of federal - has yet declared the now deadly bushfire phenomenon in Australia to be by scientific definition 'the fires of climate change'.

To make such a declaration, of course, would require a coordinated national, state and territory policy response. The people of Australia would be entitled to ask why they have to wait for the Victorian bushfires royal commission to produce its findings on something that is already staring them in the face. The Canberra bushfires of 2003 and Victoria 2009 were off the scale of the forest fire danger index.

The 13,000 professional firefighters of Australia have collectively determined that climate change is producing the extreme fire weather conditions which have confronted them over recent years. This again is a significant declaration in a body (the United Firefighters Union of Australia) which is known to have its share of climate change sceptics within the membership.

In the open letter to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd (dated February 12), national secretary Peter Marshall said:

"Consider the recent devastation in Victoria. Research by the CSIRO, Climate Institute and the Bushfire Council found that a 'low global warming scenario' will see catastrophic fire events happen in parts of regional Victoria every 5-7 years by 2020, and every 3-4 years by 2050, with up to 50 per cent more extreme danger fire days. However, under a 'high global warming scenario', catastrophic events are predicted to occur every year in Mildura, and firefighters have been warned to expect an up to 230 per cent increase in extreme fire days in Bendigo. And in Canberra, the site of devastating fires in 2003, we are being asked to prepare for up to a massive 221 per cent increase in extreme fire days by 2050."

The union is calling for a national inquiry into the state of readiness of the country's fire services to confront yet more climate change fires. And it has urged all governments to follow scientific advice by halving Australia's greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.

When I challenged the union's NSW secretary Simon Flynn on the practicality of Australia acting unilaterally on greenhouse gas emissions, which everyone understood was a global problem requiring a global response, he replied that firefighters on the west coast of the USA and the east coast of Australia had come to realise the enormity of the change in extreme fire weather conditions. After Victoria he now wanted Australia to take the lead in confronting climate change in particular, as well as the resourcing and preventative strategies for Australians living in all areas vulnerable to climate change bushfires.

Should we discount the urgings of the firefighters' union as stereotypical self-interest for more resourcing and membership? As they put their lives on the line for us, perhaps we could cut them some slack on this occasion and give the firefighters the benefit of the doubt about their now collective declaration of a link between climate change and extreme fire weather.

Should we discount the urgings of the Climate Institute, a privately funded NGO? It could be a front for vested interests in the renewable industry. (On its website the Climate Institute declares that it is primarily funded by the philanthropic Poola Foundation, through the estate of the late Tom Kantor, a nephew of Rupert Murdoch). That might be a worry in figuring out agendas and motivations, but the research it commissioned does carry the signatures of the Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre, the Bureau of Meteorology and the CSIRO.

It is obviously getting harder to put climate change fires into the too-hard basket.

The Climate Institute's website gives a state by state, region by region break down of FFDI (forest fire danger index) tracking the annual change in fire weather.

"Of most concern to firefighters are days classified as having 'very high' or 'extreme' fire dangers. The number of very high and extreme fire-weather days is projected to increase in all scenarios. For example, in Canberra, if the rate of global warming is low, the number of extreme days increases around 8-10 per cent by 2020, and 17-25 per cent by 2050. If the rate of global warming is high, the number of extreme days rises 25-42 per cent by 2020 and 137-221 per cent (around double to triple) by 2050."

As the politicians, economists, insurance companies and emergency services struggle to come to terms with what this means, Australians residing and working in the bush landscapes have clearly been warned.

Do they abandon their now-dangerous lifestyles, or do they push for policy responses which confront the fires of climate change?



Quentin Dempster presents Stateline NSW on ABC TV
Ardchoille
20-02-2009, 08:16
That's ... uncompromising.

Sometimes I'm proud of my profession. Several times, it's been because of Quentin Dempster.
Errinundera
20-02-2009, 09:22
That's ... uncompromising.

Quite so. While reading it I was thinking that one horrible day of bushfires does not prove global warming (although I'm convinced in any case) but increased frequency would be good evidence. It seems like the evidence is mounting.

Sometimes I'm proud of my profession. Several times, it's been because of Quentin Dempster.

Ahhhh! I was wondering what you did for a living. Your industry and mine have an interesting relationship.
Ardchoille
21-02-2009, 15:57
Your industry and mine have an interesting relationship.

That should surely read, "have an ... in-ter-est-ing ... relationship".:D

(But we're both off duty while on NS.)
Boonytopia
22-02-2009, 10:05
Interesting article, I will be very interested to see what the royal commission makes of it.
Ardchoille
09-03-2009, 03:45
Another interesting article:

We Have Still Not Lived Long Enough (http://inside.org.au/we-have-still-not-lived-long-enough/), by Tom Griffiths.

I'm intrigued by its opposition to the idea of a "national bushfire strategy", its clear exposition of the geographic and climatic factors that make Victoria so exposed, and its account of the mountain ash regeneration cycle.

But mostly by its sometimes explicit, sometimes implicit tone that we're still caught in colonial Australia -- where The Bush is the enemy, the dark heart, always the same, always unknown. Think of those early Australian painters who had small human figures pinned in our too-clear light and alone in an immense landscape. Or DH Lawrence's Kangaroo, where the bush was the untouchable unknown inside everyone.

I think we are now more comfortable living in/with the (different types of) bush, rather than "defeating" it, fighting it back.

In another essay I read recently by Amanda Lohrey (http://inside.org.au/less-is-more/
), on how Australia mourned the bushfire toll, she commented on how seamlessly the sound of the didgeridoo has become the quintessence of all forms of Australian public ritual.

It seems to me Tom Griffiths is saying that we're yet to make that sort of accommodation with the land.

How long do you think it will take us? Or is it a generational thing -- are the under-30s? -40s? there already?
Errinundera
09-03-2009, 05:42
Thanks for the link.

I've got a couple of books by Tom Griffiths; Secrets of the Forests (which sounds like the title of an early 19th century gothic novel) and Forests of Ash.

He calls the forested mountains to the north and east of Melbourne, the Ash Range, an ironic reference to the dominant tree species and their propensity to combust cataclysmicly.

I think Mountain Ash (Eucalyptus regnans) is the most beautiful tree in the world. Snakes and tigers are beautiful too. We just need to treat them with the proper respect.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/OVAFELLATE2.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/MUELLERFURMSTONSTREEsmall.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/East%20Gippsland/Bulgatreecleaned.jpg
Ardchoille
09-03-2009, 06:15
I've never seen a mountain ash up close/IRL. From the photos, I can see why it's regnans.

I love the Victorian photo at the bottom: "still to be neat, still to be dressed" indeed.
Boonytopia
14-03-2009, 04:13
I've never seen a mountain ash up close/IRL. From the photos, I can see why it's regnans.

I love the Victorian photo at the bottom: "still to be neat, still to be dressed" indeed.

To stand amongst the Mountain Ash forests is an awe inspiring feeling. They're so tall, so straight & have that beautiful eucalypt smell. It's humbling to stand at the base of them & look straight up.

Don't they grow in other parts of Aus? I've grown up amongst them, so I suppose I've just taken it for granted that they exist elsewhere.
Svalbardania
14-03-2009, 07:05
I don't mean to lower the tone of this discussion with mere irony, but...

The Sound Relief concert in Melbourne is getting drenched by massive rains. Anybody else find themselves tickled by that fact?
Dododecapod
14-03-2009, 14:59
To stand amongst the Mountain Ash forests is an awe inspiring feeling. They're so tall, so straight & have that beautiful eucalypt smell. It's humbling to stand at the base of them & look straight up.

Don't they grow in other parts of Aus? I've grown up amongst them, so I suppose I've just taken it for granted that they exist elsewhere.

I understand they're along the east coast, maybe Tasmania, in appropriate conditions. Never seen any over here in the West.