NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7876508.stm

Baby boy 'killed by family dogs'

A baby boy has died after what is believed to be an attack by two family dogs.

The three-and-a-half-month-old child was taken to Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr Tydfil just after midnight.

Gwent Police say a Jack Russell and Staffordshire bull terrier are believed to have caused the injuries.

The exact cause of death in the attack at a house in Ystrad Mynach has yet to be established. Both dogs have been taken away to the local vet.

A member of the family who was looking after the baby is being treated for shock before being questioned by police.

No-one has been arrested.

The area has been cordoned off and officers are carrying out house-to-house inquiries.

Shocked neighbours where the incident happened said the baby had been staying with his grandmother at the time.

Gail Jones, 45, said she was walking back from a night out when she heard a distressed woman.

She added: "You see these stories on the telly and you don't think it is going to happen on your street.

"Your heart goes out to the family. It is just tragic."

'Very distressed'

Another neighbour, Heather Organ, 47, said she was watching television when she heard "screaming".

Police forensics officer inside the house
It seemed as if somebody was very distressed or being attacked
Heather Organ, neighbour

"It seemed as if somebody was very distressed or being attacked," she said.

"I came out and saw my neighbour and he knocked on the door and asked her to open the door.

"When the door opened, two dogs ran out.

"At the time I didn't realise what had happened so, rather than let the dogs get hurt, I picked up the Jack Russell and ushered the other one (Staffordshire bull terrier) off the road.

"I know people can't prove anything but at this moment in time it does suggest that it was the dog."

Ms Organ said she believed the neighbour was minding her grandson for the weekend.

The Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust said it received a 999 call from Gwent Police to attend the house, which is in Caerphilly county, at 0021 GMT.

"The call said a young child had been attacked by a dog," said a spokesman.
Map showing Ystrad Mynach, in Caerphilly county

"We arrived shortly afterwards and conveyed the child to the Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr."

The spokesman added that a second patient was taken to the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff for treatment shortly after 0200.

Chief Inspector Jim Baker said: "This is a tragic incident for the family and the community.

"Gwent Police family liaison officers are currently supporting and assisting the family through this difficult time.

"The family wish to be left alone to grieve.

"Although the exact circumstances of the baby's death are yet to be established, we would like to reiterate the advice given to dog owners that dogs should never be left unsupervised with young children at any time."


Thoughts, feelings, comments? I think Staffordshire bull terriers should be banned, they're nasty things.

Here in Hawaii, Lawmakers are trying to ban Pit Bulls.

I agree with you that those types of dogs should be banned. When there's one isolated incident, it's obvious a blanket ban is an overreaction, but when there are many instances and involving the same class of animals, there is a need to look at the bigger picture and figure out what should and needs to be done in order to reasonably protect other people and animals.

Those dogs are classed here in Ontario as "dangerous" and ownership is prohibited. A grandfather clause, however, existed for those who were owners at the time the prohibition was signed into power by the legislature.

They are considered among the "pit bull" breed (Cochrane v. Ontario (Attorney General) (http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=dangerous+dogs&language=en&searchTitle=Ontario&path=/en/on/onsc/doc/2007/2007canlii29973/2007canlii29973.html) - case in which this is the focus). They're deemed to be dangerous animals. Some people say its the owners who create the circumstances, but when there are a great number of cases in which the same type of animal is the primary culprit, it lends itself to a trend.

Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA) defines “pit bull” as follows:

“pit bull” includes,

(a) a pit bull terrier,

(b) a Staffordshire bull terrier,

(c) an American Staffordshire terrier,

(d) an American pit bull terrier,

(e) a dog that has an appearance and physical characteristics that are substantially similar to those of dogs referred to in any of clauses (a) to (d)

Dog Owners' Liability Act (http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/sta/d-16/20080821/whole.html)

We have an act dealing with this in Ontario. I support it on the grounds that there have been incidents that have proven the necessity of this act. If it could be shown that this act over extends and is in fact an infringement of fundamental rights, I'd want to know the grounds. But it seems that based on what has happened, there is little room for those who prefer this breed to wiggle. There are many other dog types available, which are less likely to be dangerous. Pit bulls by nature were bred to be fighting dogs.

6. Except as permitted by this Act or the regulations, no person shall,

(a) own a pit bull;

(b) breed a pit bull;

(c) transfer a pit bull, whether by sale, gift or otherwise;

(d) abandon a pit bull other than to a pound operated by or on behalf of a municipality, Ontario or a designated body;

(e) allow a pit bull in his or her possession to stray;

(f) import a pit bull into Ontario; or

(g) train a pit bull for fighting. 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (16).

Interestingly enough, there is a lot of pressure on the owner to actually ensure that the dog doesn't attack another animal or person.

Owner to prevent dog from attacking

5.1 The owner of a dog shall exercise reasonable precautions to prevent it from,

(a) biting or attacking a person or domestic animal; or

(b) behaving in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals. 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (15).

Thoughts, feelings, comments? I think Staffordshire bull terriers should be banned, they're nasty things.
And Jack Russel's are innocent bystanders?

Any more anthropomorphisation you want to get off of your chest?

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.
Hear, hear.

We've had quite enough of castigising nonhuman animals with little sense of self or consequence of their actions as evil monsters, scheming on ways to eat babies.

I don't think it's particularly reasonable to call for bans until we at least know what actually happened here.

Also, people should really know better than to leave dogs alone with infants in general. I adore dogs, but they do not have magical powers of perception that guarantee that they will understand that the baby is not a plaything. Even completely gentle dogs are not unlikely to do things like lick the baby's face, and the baby can't exactly tell you, "Hey, I have bits of that dead squirrel the dog was chewing on this morning stuck in my mouth, and it's probably not good for me."

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.

^This^

Guardian (by that i mean the person watching) responsibility > dog responsibility

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.

normally, I wouldn't agree with this. but these lines in the article has me agreeing with you.


Neighbours said three-and-a-half-month-old Jaden Meck was staying with his grandmother at the time...

Ms Organ said she believed the neighbour was minding her grandson for the weekend.

Sounds like the Grandmother lost track of her grandson. :(

The first thing we do, let's kill all the dogs ....

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.

Which is why we often need laws that spell out the responsibilities of those who own dogs, as in the law I cited that exists here in Ontario. It's just an example, but it shows that we've reached a point where we have to legislate common sense because some people's malfunction on a continual basis.

there are certain kinds of dogs that are bred to be aggressive.

Animals that are intentionally bred for their aggressive tendencies should be outlawed as pets, or require a special permit to prove that the owners are trained to deal w/ their animals, and the animals have attended obedience school, that the owners do NOT have small children, and do not live near people who have small children (like, on a farm) and should have the permission of their neighbors to own such an animal. This is the only way to assure that, if someone has an overwhelming desire to own such a pet, they're willing to take full responsibility for it.

we had some people move i behind us that had a pit bull mix; they also had 2 small children, an infant, and the dog ran away on a regular basis. She got into our backyard once, and while she did shy away from agressive behavior towards our dog, we told them that if their dog ever attacked our dog, we'd beat it with a stick.

oddly, the dog never got out again.

there are certain kinds of dogs that are bred to be aggressive.

Animals that are intentionally bred for their aggressive tendencies should be outlawed as pets, or require a special permit to prove that the owners are trained to deal w/ their animals, and the animals have attended obedience school, that the owners do NOT have small children, and do not live near people who have small children (like, on a farm) and should have the permission of their neighbors to own such an animal. This is the only way to assure that, if someone has an overwhelming desire to own such a pet, they're willing to take full responsibility for it.

we had some people move i behind us that had a pit bull mix; they also had 2 small children, an infant, and the dog ran away on a regular basis. She got into our backyard once, and while she did shy away from agressive behavior towards our dog, we told them that if their dog ever attacked our dog, we'd beat it with a stick.

oddly, the dog never got out again.


one also has to take into account the breed's temperment. a Chihuahua is not bred for aggression, but it can be noisy and tempremental since it craves attention (according to some 'experts')

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.


Agreed - but said sitter may not have realized the potential danger involved. I often left my infant asleep on the floor to go make lunch. At that age, they don't exactly move much. Stick a mobile over them, and they're good for a few minutes. But that is ALL it would take - sitter in the bathroom, not able to respond instantly - baby start kicking and grabbing at the toys on the mobile, dog getting agitated... it's a disaster before the sitter knows what happened.

Some of reactions remind me of a letter I read in a Sports Illustrated--I assume it dealt with the aftermath of the dogfighting fiasco--where a guy talked about how his kid was killed by a pitbull, and that he would now prefer to see pitbulls gassed out of existence.

I can see where his feelings came from, but the idea of wiping out an entire species of dog--especially with gas--doesn't sit well with me. Not that any of you are advocating this at all, just that the whole situation sort of reminded me.

I love this sentence:

the decision was taken in conjunction with the family to humanely destroy the animals.

Agreed - but said sitter may not have realized the potential danger involved. I often left my infant asleep on the floor to go make lunch. At that age, they don't exactly move much. Stick a mobile over them, and they're good for a few minutes. But that is ALL it would take - sitter in the bathroom, not able to respond instantly - baby start kicking and grabbing at the toys on the mobile, dog getting agitated... it's a disaster before the sitter knows what happened.

and this is the problem. alot of people assume all breeds of dogs are ok to leave with babies and children.

Some of reactions remind me of a letter I read in a Sports Illustrated--I assume it dealt with the aftermath of the dogfighting fiasco--where a guy talked about how his kid was killed by a pitbull, and that he would now prefer to see pitbulls gassed out of existence.

I can see where his feelings came from, but the idea of wiping out an entire species of dog--especially with gas--doesn't sit well with me. Not that any of you are advocating this at all, just that the whole situation sort of reminded me.

the issue is always comes down to the responsibility (and intelligence) of the owners. Dumb, uneducated owners who don't have a clue how to handle an agressive dog should NOT have them.

the issue is always comes down to the responsibility (and intelligence) of the owners. Dumb, uneducated owners who don't have a clue how to handle an agressive dog should NOT have them.

Heh, this is why I'm a cat person. :P

I love this sentence:

Poor dogs.

I mean, no matter how you figure it, I have no doubt the dogs had no idea they were doing something so terrible, because, y'know, they're dogs. I mean, my dog is eternally surprised and disappointed when the bunnies she catches stop playing with her after she shakes them hard enough, and she's pretty smart as dogs go. I always feel bad when dogs get put down for something they couldn't possibly have understood, and which could have been prevented by their owners not being assholes or idiots.

Heh, this is why I'm a cat person. :P

The only thing my cat does is shed on anyone who comes near it.

Heh, this is why I'm a cat person. :P

Have you seen the way your cat looks at you? You know they're plotting to overthrow mankind and become the dominant race on earth right?

Cats are scary. When the apocalypse comes, we'll need all the pit bulls and Staffordshire bull terriers to go out with us on the plain of Megiddo to meet the coming cat hordes! Make no mistake my friends, they are coming for us. They get us to get rid of their enemies, and then they will conquer us.

Heh, this is why I'm a cat person. :P

:eek::eek:

I was shocked by how many people told me to get rid of our cats when we had our first child!

"Cats are dangerous - they suffocate babies!! Cats will attack your baby!!" Kid you not - had several people feel compelled to tell me how dangerous it would be for me to keep my cats after we had kids.

My cats were awesome. Two of them simply had nothing to do w/ the baby (but thoroughly enjoyed various baby toys), and our biggest cat (and smartest) would entertain the baby.

People can just be ignorant.

Have you seen the way your cat looks at you? You know they're plotting to overthrow mankind and become the dominant race on earth right?

Cats are scary. When the apocalypse comes, we'll need all the pit bulls and Staffordshire bull terriers to go out with us on the plain of Megiddo to meet the coming cat hordes! Make no mistake my friends, they are coming for us. They get us to get rid of their enemies, and then they will conquer us.

Not my two kitties. The first one, in a surprising inversion, practically worships me. It's kind of funny.

The other one, she's too much of a spaz to every plan anything. :P

:eek::eek:

I was shocked by how many people told me to get rid of our cats when we had our first child!

"Cats are dangerous - they suffocate babies!! Cats will attack your baby!!" Kid you not - had several people feel compelled to tell me how dangerous it would be for me to keep my cats after we had kids.

My cats were awesome. Two of them simply had nothing to do w/ the baby (but thoroughly enjoyed various baby toys), and our biggest cat (and smartest) would entertain the baby.

People can just be ignorant.

From what I've been told, the cat we had when I was a baby pretty much became my bodyguard and playmate. I suspect they put up with a lot of shit from me, but they seemed to take it well.

Even so, if I had a kid, even with cats I'd make sure that I would always be present and watching when my baby was with the cats.

Have you seen the way your cat looks at you? You know they're plotting to overthrow mankind and become the dominant race on earth right?

Cats are scary. When the apocalypse comes, we'll need all the pit bulls and Staffordshire bull terriers to go out with us on the plain of Megiddo to meet the coming cat hordes! Make no mistake my friends, they are coming for us. They get us to get rid of their enemies, and then they will conquer us.

Then don't be the enemy!!! Embrace the goodness that is cat-ness!

Delight in looking arrogantly down your nose at everyone!
Celebrate the joy of pouncing on people!
Learn the art of doing dumb things, then getting that look on your face that says, "I meant to do that!"

Dude - get with the program! Be on their side when cats take over the world! I know I am! ;)

Then don't be the enemy!!! Embrace the goodness that is cat-ness!

Delight in looking arrogantly down your nose at everyone!
Celebrate the joy of pouncing on people!
Learn the art of doing dumb things, then getting that look on your face that says, "I meant to do that!"

Dude - get with the program! Be on their side when cats take over the world! I know I am! ;)

Ladies and gentlemen, we have confederates in our midst. We must sick pit bulls on them.

(sorry - did we totally thread jack that topic???? It was the cat-influence. That's what they do...)

now back to your original topic...

What if someone were to intentionally cause his dogs to attack the child? Now hear me out, that's wrong and sick yes - but, in this case, would anyone ever find out?

Dogs can be bred for temperament, but must be trained to be truly vicious.

Poor dogs.

I mean, no matter how you figure it, I have no doubt the dogs had no idea they were doing something so terrible, because, y'know, they're dogs. I mean, my dog is eternally surprised and disappointed when the bunnies she catches stop playing with her after she shakes them hard enough, and she's pretty smart as dogs go. I always feel bad when dogs get put down for something they couldn't possibly have understood, and which could have been prevented by their owners not being assholes or idiots.

This. ^

What if someone were to intentionally cause his dogs to attack the child? Now hear me out, that's wrong and sick yes - but, in this case, would anyone ever find out?

yes. to train a dog to attack would take time. and a pattern would be detectable.

While this is a terrible tragedy, breed specific legislation is a bad idea and is not based on any real evidence-- it's all knee jerk reactions designed to make people feel safe.

Take the much-maligned pit bull, for example. How many now realize that it was once known as a "nanny dog" because of its loyal and intelligent nature that made it well suited for kids? Sadly, it has become known as an inherently aggressive and dangerous dog, and so people fear it (despite the fact that many people can't even spot a pit bull properly). People try to cite statistics to mislead you into thinking that pit bulls are more dangerous, but they leave out important details-- they take advantage of the fact that "pit bull" is not one breed of dog, but several; so their stats compare multiple breeds of dog to just one, and, big surprise, the multiple breeds added together attack more people than the one breed alone.

Further, even if there is a correlation once you account for this, you have to consider that correlation does not imply causation. It is entirely plausible that, because of their reputation, people who want to appear "tough" will adopt pit bulls and train them poorly, so that they become aggressive, to prove how "manly" they are (after all, real men have poorly trained and aggressive dogs!).

But consider-- of Michael Vick's dogs, only one was too aggressive to be rehabilitated. Several of them have been adopted and are probably great pets now. If even dogs that had been specifically trained to fight can be made into fine pets, then I think that says a good bit.

But of course, people who are pro-BSL never listen to things like this. They assume that certain breeds are "inherently aggressive" and should be banned or even mass-euthanized. As for me, if I ever get a dog, I'll strongly consider adopting a pit bull of some sort -- or any irrationally feared breed-- from a shelter, and train it properly as any responsible pet owner should.

yes. to train a dog to attack would take time. and a pattern would be detectable.

Dogs like these don't need to be trained to attack people, they need to be trained NOT to.

More to the point, why the fuck did the person "watching" the baby allow a three and a half MONTH old be anywhere near dogs? They're not chew toys.

But then it's easier to blame the dog than realize your so-called responsible adult caused your kid's death through reckless endangerment/neglect.

Their dog should have been locked up and it's teeth in another location.

Pets don't kill people. Pet owners do.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the dogs ....

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/funny-dog-pictures-dog-makes-scooby-doo-noise.jpg

Pets don't kill people. Pet owners do.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Yeah. More accurately, it should have been "Only stupid people's pets kill people, as intelligent people raise them properly or don't get them at all."

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaler educatus et nimim propinquus ades! If you are able to read this, you are both very well educated and much too close?

This is a tragic story. My heart goes out the family.

However this tragic death could have been prevented by adult supervision.

Children that young shouldn't be left alone at all, generally, but especially with dogs, unless you know for damn sure the dog won't do anything to the baby. Which responsible dog can know. For example, when my sister was born we had a 100 pound lab/husky mix and a 15 pound australian terrier. The terrier loved children, and would start barking and running around if my sister was crying. The husky mix was jealous for a while of my sister, and he growled once at her. My mother heard the growl, and smacked him, and yelled at him. Fro then on he was fine around my sister, and grew to love her. Dogs are pack animals, and when need to know that children are above them in the pack. It is very simple to do.

This death was a result of negligence.

Breed bans are retarded, as you only hear about the few dogs every year that attack people. You don't hear about the thousands of other dogs that are perfectly fine and well behaved pets.

Rottweilers and Dobermans are far more dangerous, and nobody's banning them here because they're used as attack dogs.

Rottweilers and Dobermans are far more dangerous, and nobody's banning them here because they're used as attack dogs.

I rarely hear about Rott or Dobie attacks, like I can't remember the last time I heard about one. There are Pitt attacks daily here, like every day on the news a kid is maimed or nearly killed...of course Pitt Bulls are bred and trained for fighting here. (not legally, but it's pretty rampant)

What if someone were to intentionally cause his dogs to attack the child? Now hear me out, that's wrong and sick yes - but, in this case, would anyone ever find out?

Unless you can train the dogs to testify or there was a witness to someone sicking the dogs on the kid, I doubt it.

I rarely hear about Rott or Dobie attacks, like I can't remember the last time I heard about one. There are Pitt attacks daily here, like every day on the news a kid is maimed or nearly killed...of course Pitt Bulls are bred and trained for fighting here. (not legally, but it's pretty rampant)

Probably because people don't get them as much as pittbulls. And usually it's always attacks on small children, it's difficult for a pittbull to kill a grown adult since as you say they are trained for fighting, but for fighting other dogs, not just trained but partly bred for it even. On the other hand, rottweilers and dobermans were bred as attack dogs vs humans. If stupid people had more dobermans instead of pittbulls, we'd see trouble for sure. It's only stupid people that cause these problems.

Unless you can train the dogs to testify or there was a witness to someone sicking the dogs on the kid, I doubt it.

See, that's what I was thinking. Unless theres a witness who comes out and says they saw the dogs being trained like that or whatever, the forensics might not reveal any foul play.

That chills me. Chills me to the bones.

Rottweilers and Dobermans are far more dangerous, and nobody's banning them here because they're used as attack dogs.

The Rottweiler hysteria was 15 or 20 years ago, as I recall. (And, of course, Rotties are big goofy sweeties if you train them properly instead of being a dick.)

:eek::eek:

I was shocked by how many people told me to get rid of our cats when we had our first child!

"Cats are dangerous - they suffocate babies!! Cats will attack your baby!!" Kid you not - had several people feel compelled to tell me how dangerous it would be for me to keep my cats after we had kids.

My cats were awesome. Two of them simply had nothing to do w/ the baby (but thoroughly enjoyed various baby toys), and our biggest cat (and smartest) would entertain the baby.

People can just be ignorant.

That might explain the large numbers of people trying to find new homes for their cats who stated "we're having a baby so we're looking to get rid of our cat". It's one thing if it's "we had a baby, baby is allergic to cat, cat is easier to move to a different home than baby" but I never thought of cats as a danger to babies. The worst that will happen is someone will get scratched for pulling on some fur (or because someone put the baby in a carrier on the floor near the counter for a minute and the cat was innocently jumping off... this happened to one of my sisters).

That might explain the large numbers of people trying to find new homes for their cats who stated "we're having a baby so we're looking to get rid of our cat". It's one thing if it's "we had a baby, baby is allergic to cat, cat is easier to move to a different home than baby" but I never thought of cats as a danger to babies. The worst that will happen is someone will get scratched for pulling on some fur (or because someone put the baby in a carrier on the floor near the counter for a minute and the cat was innocently jumping off... this happened to one of my sisters).

Well, when you're pregnant you can get that toxic whatever from cats.....but also there's an old wives tale that cats will smell the milk on babies breath and try to suck out their soul or whatever.

That being said our cat was uninterested in the kids when they were babies.

The Rottweiler hysteria was 15 or 20 years ago, as I recall. (And, of course, Rotties are big goofy sweeties if you train them properly instead of being a dick.)
My uncle had a Rottweiler twice my age about 15 years ago. Big dumb dog who was about as dangerous as a house fly to anything.

Well, when you're pregnant you can get that toxic whatever from cats.....but also there's an old wives tale that cats will smell the milk on babies breath and try to suck out their soul or whatever.

That being said our cat was uninterested in the kids when they were babies.
I'm going to guess that you get the toxic whatever from cats if your place is a shit hole and you don't clean up random cat piss?

I'm going to guess that you get the toxic whatever from cats if your place is a shit hole and you don't clean up random cat piss?

Nah, it's like a parasite and it's in cat shit, so like being around litter boxes. Also like 40% of the population already has it but if a fetus gets it then it could make them seriously ill or something......I don't remember since I haven't been pregnant in a long time, but we relocated the cats during the pregnancies.

Nah, it's like a parasite and it's in cat shit, so like being around litter boxes. Also like 40% of the population already has it but if a fetus gets it then it could make them seriously ill or something......I don't remember since I haven't been pregnant in a long time, but we relocated the cats during the pregnancies.

Huh. This was never a problem for my mom when she had my sisters. She and my dad had cats before I was born and had them in the house throughout all of her pregnancies.
Wouldn't this be something where you could haul the cats into the vet and get them meds to kill the parasite and then you're all set?

But of course, people who are pro-BSL never listen to things like this. They assume that certain breeds are "inherently aggressive" and should be banned or even mass-euthanized. As for me, if I ever get a dog, I'll strongly consider adopting a pit bull of some sort -- or any irrationally feared breed-- from a shelter, and train it properly as any responsible pet owner should.

Certain breeds are "inherently" whatever. Our border collie mix drives herself nuts in the summer trying to center herself in the middle of her 'flock', so she knows where we are all. :D (it's really quite funny to watch her try to find the most central location)

In any case, the bottom line is exactly what you said: train it properly as any responsible pet owner would do. Key words: responsible. Plus, knowing the instinctive nature of the breed. I vaguely remember that pit bulls used to be "nanny dogs," but I do have to ask: how much of that quality has been bred out of them over the years? Even the standard descriptions are redefined periodically Updates and changes in breed standards (if you're interested) (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2223) The point being - how many of the breeding dogs extent in the country of origin of this story are still bred for that nurturing temperament???

Certain breeds are "inherently" whatever. Our border collie mix drives herself nuts in the summer trying to center herself in the middle of her 'flock', so she knows where we are all. :D (it's really quite funny to watch her try to find the most central location)

In any case, the bottom line is exactly what you said: train it properly as any responsible pet owner would do. Key words: responsible. Plus, knowing the instinctive nature of the breed. I vaguely remember that pit bulls used to be "nanny dogs," but I do have to ask: how much of that quality has been bred out of them over the years? Even the standard descriptions are redefined periodically Updates and changes in breed standards (if you're interested) (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2223) The point being - how many of the breeding dogs extent in the country of origin of this story are still bred for that nurturing temperament???

From my experience, quite a bit.

<snip> it's like a parasite and it's in cat shit <snip> 40% of the population already has it
Toxoplasma gondii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii), an intriguing little organism. The disease that it causes is Toxoplasmosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis), one of a variety of parasitically induced illnesses that are known to actually alter the behaviour of the hosts that are infected.

Crazy stuff, perhaps almost a little scary in a way, but worth knowing. Sleep well, NSG :)

Certain breeds are "inherently" whatever. Our border collie mix drives herself nuts in the summer trying to center herself in the middle of her 'flock', so she knows where we are all. :D (it's really quite funny to watch her try to find the most central location)

No, certain breeds have tendencies. There exist counter-examples as well.


In any case, the bottom line is exactly what you said: train it properly as any responsible pet owner would do. Key words: responsible.

Yes, and irresponsible owners can make just about any breed physically capable of doing damage into a dangerous animal. It just so happens that those who would want to do such a thing often choose pit bulls almost entirely because of their reputation.


Plus, knowing the instinctive nature of the breed. I vaguely remember that pit bulls used to be "nanny dogs," but I do have to ask: how much of that quality has been bred out of them over the years? Even the standard descriptions are redefined periodically Updates and changes in breed standards (if you're interested) (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2223) The point being - how many of the breeding dogs extent in the country of origin of this story are still bred for that nurturing temperament???

Well, if you consider that dog fighting is illegal, I would think that just about all legit breeders breed them for such a purpose, or they'd be shut down, no?
And I refer you to a simple fact: of all Michael Vick's fighting dogs, exactly one was too aggressive for rehabilitation. I think that says quite a bit, don't you? So even a poorly bred dog has a chance, as long as you're responsible. BSL doesn't address that. Instead of legislation banning certain breeds, it'd be much better to punish people who breed their dogs to be aggressive.

Well, if you consider that dog fighting is illegal, I would think that just about all legit breeders breed them for such a purpose, or they'd be shut down, no?
And also, kill the owner. That was why it was bred into the breed in the first place - the owner had to be able to separate fighting dogs. Pitbulls who go around mauling children are not going to be from major underground fighting rings. Their pitbulls don't usually run around the neighborhood and kill people. It's retards who think the breed looks tough, buys the dogs from shady dealers, don't fix their dogs and have more puppies and give them away to other shady idiots who think they look though, raise them poorly and don't socialize them properly and let them have free run of the neighborhood.

The Rottweiler hysteria was 15 or 20 years ago, as I recall. (And, of course, Rotties are big goofy sweeties if you train them properly instead of being a dick.)

Rotts are very manageable dogs but their breed design is still partly of an attack dog. All dogs are normally nice to their owners. The problem is that dogs won't necessarily see little kids the same way they see their adult owners. And of course strangers is no question, which is why breeds capable of taking down grown adults can be more dangerous in general.

Rotts are very manageable dogs but their breed design is still partly of an attack dog. All dogs are normally nice to their owners. The problem is that dogs won't necessarily see little kids the same way they see their adult owners. And of course strangers is no question, which is why breeds capable of taking down grown adults can be more dangerous in general.

Well, sure. My point wasn't "Rottweilers are perfectly safe no matter what," after all - but there's no doubt you can train a Rottweiler to be fine with kids and strangers, because I've met Rottweilers who are fine with kids and strangers. One of my friends in high school had two HUGE Rottweilers, and honestly, the only risk a stranger ran upon walking into their yard was being licked to death by the younger one or smacked about the thighs with the elder one's very enthusiastic tail. :p

I'd just like to point out that I find it utterly bizarre that anyone would actually keep an animal in their house. I know it's common...I know it's accepted. It's just...culturally repugnant to me.

Clearly that means I am stating that anyone who keeps an animal in their home deserves to have their children mauled to death, just in case anyone was wondering.

I'd just like to point out that I find it utterly bizarre that anyone would actually keep an animal in their house. I know it's common...I know it's accepted. It's just...culturally repugnant to me.


I thought you were supposed to be all in touch with nature and stuff.

i'd just like to point out that i find it utterly bizarre that anyone would actually keep an animal in their house. I know it's common...i know it's accepted. It's just...culturally repugnant to me.

Clearly that means i am stating that anyone who keeps an animal in their home deserves to have their children mauled to death, just in case anyone was wondering.

5.8

I'd just like to point out that I find it utterly bizarre that anyone would actually keep an animal in their house. I know it's common...I know it's accepted. It's just...culturally repugnant to me.

Clearly that means I am stating that anyone who keeps an animal in their home deserves to have their children mauled to death, just in case anyone was wondering.

So people should lock their dogs out in dog houses?

I love dogs as much as I do cats, for different reasons. I used to own a Pit Bull named Nelly and she was a goofy little sweetheart who wouldn't even dream of hurting someone. Even if you pretended to be hurt she would sit down and cry until you told her it was ok. Properly trained dogs, even attack dogs, can be great companions and pets. A great exampe would be police dogs, German Shepards are most common but Rotwieler's are used in some precincts; they are trained to attack, but when they are not 'working' they are kind and gentle. Its not the breeding, or necesarily the training. I blame lack of training for most of these kinds of things.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the dogs ....
I don't like the original of that line, no offense to Willy. ;) I know too many decent lawyers.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the dogs ....

Exactly the kind of reaction I'd expect from the Cat Tribe.

there are certain kinds of dogs that are bred to be aggressive.

Animals that are intentionally bred for their aggressive tendencies should be outlawed as pets, or require a special permit to prove that the owners are trained to deal w/ their animals, and the animals have attended obedience school, that the owners do NOT have small children, and do not live near people who have small children (like, on a farm) and should have the permission of their neighbors to own such an animal. This is the only way to assure that, if someone has an overwhelming desire to own such a pet, they're willing to take full responsibility for it.

we had some people move i behind us that had a pit bull mix; they also had 2 small children, an infant, and the dog ran away on a regular basis. She got into our backyard once, and while she did shy away from agressive behavior towards our dog, we told them that if their dog ever attacked our dog, we'd beat it with a stick.

oddly, the dog never got out again.
And bull terriers are bred nowadays not to be aggressive -- but idiots maltreat them, and German Shepherds, and Rottweilers, and Dobermans to make them vicious sometimes. It doesn't mean the breed is at fault -- it means the owners are. You said yourself, your neighbors dog avoided confronting your dog's guarding behavior.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/staffordshire_bull_terrier/index.cfm

Temperament
From the past history of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the modern dog draws its character of indomitable courage, high intelligence, and tenacity. This, coupled with its affection for its friends, and children in particular, its off-duty quietness and trustworthy stability, makes it a foremost all-purpose dog.

Note though that babys and toddlers exhibit "prey" behavior -- they crawl about and squeak as if wounded, and run when older (which even in adults can trigger the "hunt" instinct).

Dogs are wonderful pets, but they are not good babysitters despite "Nana" in Peter Pan, nor do they possess a human knowledge of right or wrong. Leaving young children unattended with ANY dog is asking for trouble, whether it's a snap from poked eyes, yanked ears or stepped on paws and tails, or just exhibiting "weak", "wounded" or "prey" behaviors.

and this is the problem. alot of people assume all breeds of dogs are ok to leave with babies and children.
NO BREED of dog is ok to leave with babies and small children. That attitude is why there are mauling deaths every year.

Their dog should have been locked up and it's teeth in another location.
Smunkee -- or the baby should not have been in a room with the dogs anywhere they could have got it. They have those "baby gates" for a reason -- to keep kids penned into a room, or pets penned out.

I rarely hear about Rott or Dobie attacks, like I can't remember the last time I heard about one. There are Pitt attacks daily here, like every day on the news a kid is maimed or nearly killed...of course Pitt Bulls are bred and trained for fighting here. (not legally, but it's pretty rampant)

I reiterate. OWNER, not BREED fault.
If you start putting owners in jail and fining them exorbitantly, when they have multiple aggressive animal attacks, it might retard this.

Nah, it's like a parasite and it's in cat shit, so like being around litter boxes. Also like 40% of the population already has it but if a fetus gets it then it could make them seriously ill or something......I don't remember since I haven't been pregnant in a long time, but we relocated the cats during the pregnancies.
Pregnant women should not clean litterboxes -- their SO should -- because the toxemia can cause them to abort.

I thought you were supposed to be all in touch with nature and stuff.
Perhaps under the sarcasm is the realization that animals still have an animal nature and are not retarded midget humans in fur suits?

On the subject of Dobermans:

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/6/19/playswellwith128584126244614857.jpg

:p

Mmm....baby.

Mmm....baby.

The other other white meat.

I agree with you that those types of dogs should be banned. When there's one isolated incident, it's obvious a blanket ban is an overreaction, but when there are many instances and involving the same class of animals, there is a need to look at the bigger picture and figure out what should and needs to be done in order to reasonably protect other people and animals.

They're deemed to be dangerous animals. Some people say its the owners who create the circumstances, but when there are a great number of cases in which the same type of animal is the primary culprit, it lends itself to a trend.

Yes, the trend is irresponsible owners. Many of the so-called dangerous breeds are often owned by people who get them for that very reason. They then encourage aggressive tendencies or neglect to train their dogs not to be aggressive.

That said, the last time this came up, there was a study on dog-bite incidences brought up. The so-called "dangerous breeds" made up an incredibly small percentage of the actual dog bites, with breeds everyone thinks are harmless making up the majority. The difference is that the "dangerous breeds" are typically larger dogs capable of doing more damage.

What this points to is not a necessity for banning any breed of dogs, but instead for ensuring owner responsibility - especially in the case of large dogs capable of doing a great deal of damage.

Pit bulls by nature were bred to be fighting dogs.

They were also originally bred and trained to be non-aggressive towards people even as fighting dogs, so that their handlers could stop the fight and get them out of the pit.

It's idiotic people who wanted an aggressive dog who have, in some cases, since bred and trained (or failed to train) them otherwise.

But of course, people who are pro-BSL never listen to things like this. They assume that certain breeds are "inherently aggressive" and should be banned or even mass-euthanized. As for me, if I ever get a dog, I'll strongly consider adopting a pit bull of some sort -- or any irrationally feared breed-- from a shelter, and train it properly as any responsible pet owner should.

I'm a big fan of Rotties. The ones I've known have all been very sweet animals that were very slow to get angry. But, of course, because they're big dogs that typically do a lot of damage if they do attack, people think they're "bad breeds" or something.

I'd actually have a Rottie mix, except we lived in an apartment when we adopted and he would have gone over the weight limit. I'm sure someone picked him up, though. He was awesome.

Dogs like these don't need to be trained to attack people, they need to be trained NOT to.

All dogs need to be properly trained and socialized on how to act around people. Particularly aggressive animals of any breed have usually either received training to do so or had their training and socialization neglected. Too many people buy a Rottie or a pit bull and then leave it out on a chain with little to no affection or training. And they they act surprised when it becomes aggressive.

Of course, too many people also neglect to train their chihuahuas or toy poodles because they're just little things that can't hurt people, right? It's cute when they're aggressive towards people, right?

The Rottweiler hysteria was 15 or 20 years ago, as I recall. (And, of course, Rotties are big goofy sweeties if you train them properly instead of being a dick.)

Sometimes I wonder if you're my long-lost sister. Seriously.

I LOVE Rotties.


All dogs are normally nice to their owners. The problem is that dogs won't necessarily see little kids the same way they see their adult owners. And of course strangers is no question, which is why breeds capable of taking down grown adults can be more dangerous in general.

Hence the need for proper socialization and training. Owners need to be aware of their dogs' reactions to children and strangers, encourage good behavior, and discourage bad behavior. If, even after such socialization, a dog still seems aggressive around children, the dog needs to be kept separated from children.

It isn't rocket science - it's responsibility.

What this points to is not a necessity for banning any breed of dogs, but instead for ensuring owner responsibility - especially in the case of large dogs capable of doing a great deal of damage.

But when owners neglect to do so, we find ourselves wondering what we can do. The law may say that the people have a responsibility, but enforcing it has little effect. It results in collective punishment because often we find ourselves unable to be responsible so we must for our safety remove the source until we can learn. It won't always work and people will oppose it. Most prohibitions end and something reasonable will emerge, but we must make mistakes and learn before we reach the point of reasonableness.

But when owners neglect to do so, we find ourselves wondering what we can do.

Punish the owners, just as we would someone who was reckless with their car and harmed someone.

The law may say that the people have a responsibility, but enforcing it has little effect.

The problem is that it isn't really enforced. Most people just go, "Oh, it was one of those bad breeds. Ban them!" instead of seeking legislation that would bring more punishment upon the responsible parties.

When a pit bull that has been chained up in a yard for months gets off the chain and attacks someone, what we hear is, "ANOTHER PIT BULL MAULS CHILD!" We don't hear, "Another idiot mistreats a dog and is responsible for the death of a child."

The other other white meat.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/iatebaby.wav

:D

All dogs need to be properly trained and socialized on how to act around people. Particularly aggressive animals of any breed have usually either received training to do so or had their training and socialization neglected. Too many people buy a Rottie or a pit bull and then leave it out on a chiain with little to no affection or training. And they they act surprised when it becomes aggressive.

This would seem to be a tragic case of that.

Of course, too many people also neglect to train their chihuahuas or toy poodles because they're just little things that can't hurt people, right? It's cute when they're aggressive towards people, right?

Are you asking me? I don't think they're cute. I'm a cat person.

This would seem to be a tragic case of that.

To a point. It isn't clear that these animals were actually abused or untrained, but even the best socialized dogs really shouldn't be left alone with an infant or small child. Many people assume that a dog who is non-aggressive towards adults will be equally non-aggressive towards children, but it is not always true - partially because children don't behave in the same manner as adults.

Are you asking me? I don't think they're cute. I'm a cat person.

I'm channeling the attitude of way too many people. The most obnoxious and aggressive dogs I've encountered have been pretty much invariably small breeds. But their owners either think its cute or think its no big deal because their dog doesn't actually cause significant harm. I suppose, if such people are going to own a dog, a small breed is the way to go, but they really shouldn't have one at all.

To a point. It isn't clear that these animals were actually abused or untrained, but even the best socialized dogs really shouldn't be left alone with an infant or small child. Many people assume that a dog who is non-aggressive towards adults will be equally non-aggressive towards children, but it is not always true - partially because children don't behave in the same manner as adults.

True. Well, in this case I raised the wild suspicion that maybe its infanticide by dog, since it would be difficult to prove the difference between that and merely being neglectful or the dog being a little too playful.

Come to think of it, young kids shouldn't be allowed unattended around cats either - though in that case the risk is also to the cat. A kid might be tempted to "ride horsey" or somesuch, to the cat's demise.

Probably any pets really.

I'm glad I don't have kids and don't have to worry about all that.

I'm channeling the attitude of way too many people. The most obnoxious and aggressive dogs I've encountered have been pretty much invariably small breeds. But their owners either think its cute or think its no big deal because their dog doesn't actually cause significant harm. I suppose, if such people are going to own a dog, a small breed is the way to go, but they really shouldn't have one at all.

Agreed. I know a gigantic mixed breed (part Malamut, part some kind of terrier or rott or something) dog that's gentle as a big kitty cat. Small yipping dogs, always on the edge, chips on their tiny shoulders? All too common.