NationStates Jolt Archive

Given the current thread on the number of alien civilizations, and specifically Cameroi's implication of a hypothetical alien faction that acts as a "police force" for the various civilizations, I thought I'd ask these two related questions.

Senario One: you are in charge of drafting Earth's new policy for contact with extraterrestrials. Following First Contact, we have discovered that their is an extremely advanced civilization that acts as a "police force" for others, maintaining interstellar peace, order, and law. How should we respond to this? Should we accept this organization's control, or become a "rouge state"?

Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?

Senario One: you are in charge of drafting Earth's new policy for contact with extraterrestrials. Following First Contact, we have discovered that their is an extremely advanced civilization that acts as a "police force" for others, maintaining interstellar peace, order, and law. How should we respond to this? Should we accept this organization's control, or become a "rouge state"? ...Mass Effect...in action? :confused:

Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?...How about we just...not expand in their direction, i.e. we just go where they aren't. o_0;

If they're all weaklings, let them do their own thing. If they're stronger than us, keep the hell away.

Given the current thread on the number of alien civilizations, and specifically Cameroi's implication of a hypothetical alien faction that acts as a "police force" for the various civilizations, I thought I'd ask these two related questions.

Senario One: you are in charge of drafting Earth's new policy for contact with extraterrestrials. Following First Contact, we have discovered that their is an extremely advanced civilization that acts as a "police force" for others, maintaining interstellar peace, order, and law. How should we respond to this? Should we accept this organization's control, or become a "rouge state"?

Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?

Senario One: See original "Day the Earth Stood Still."
Senario Two: Refer to Zeta Reticuli option.

my obvious option is for responsible impartiality.

For senario one, I'd suggest we play by their rules if possible, and attempt to gain whatever influence/assistance in upgrading our tech that we can.

For senario two, I'd advocate a Star Trek Prime Directive-style policy of non-interference, with some notable alterations. First, interference would be allowed to protect an intelligent species or biosphere from extinction, and to save human lives (at least in some situations). Second, the cut-off for allowing open contact would be something like radio communications and/or nuclear technology, not warp drives. :)

to expand on my perhaps inadequate one line, its intention is in complete agreement with what both ferrous oxide and romulan republic had stated immediately above. (i do, however in this context, construe the term "human" to extend to all members of all sentient 'civilized' species)

Senario One: you are in charge of drafting Earth's new policy for contact with extraterrestrials. Following First Contact, we have discovered that their is an extremely advanced civilization that acts as a "police force" for others, maintaining interstellar peace, order, and law. How should we respond to this? Should we accept this organization's control, or become a "rouge state"?

"Rouge" state? You mean a "lipstick" state? ...it's "rogue", I guess...

Anyway, heck no. If they're willing to negotiate a treaty between us and them, as peers, we could begin a process of joining the interstellar community. If not, they have to shove off.


Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?

Wait for them to want to trade with us. Then make treatises on interstellar trade and non-aggression pacts.

Depends on how high-tech were actually talking here. If they can utterly destroy us? (planet busting weapons or just ridiculously high tech) At that point do what we can to survive . .. otherwise? i dunno

Depends on how high-tech were actually talking here. If they can utterly destroy us? (planet busting weapons or just ridiculously high tech) At that point do what we can to survive . .. otherwise? i dunno

Well frankly, any interplanetary, never mind interstellar civilization could destroy us if they wished. They could fire thousands of nukes, or more efficiently, attach an engine to an asteroid and slowly alter its course to put it on a collision course with Earth.

Well frankly, any interplanetary, never mind interstellar civilization could destroy us if they wished. They could fire thousands of nukes, or more efficiently, attach an engine to an asteroid and slowly alter its course to put it on a collision course with Earth.I'm pretty sure I calc'd the energy requirements for the latter scenario a while ago.

Nukes are more efficient. Way, way more efficient. With 'Clean' nukes from the eighties-era and onward, you wont even get all that much fallout, and besides, biospheres are used to take substantially longer to recover from extinction events than said fallout remains problematic, anyway.

Well either way, it can be done, easily.

I'm pretty sure I calc'd the energy requirements for the latter scenario a while ago.

Nukes are more efficient. Way, way more efficient. With 'Clean' nukes from the eighties-era and onward, you wont even get all that much fallout, and besides, biospheres are used to take substantially longer to recover from extinction events than said fallout remains problematic, anyway.

It depends on what you want to do. Wiping out modern civilization is cheaper with nukes, but you'll still have holdouts and pockets of survivors.

If you want totally immolate the planetary surface and leave nothing alive, you'd be better off pointing a moon sized rock at Earth an accelerating it to somewhere around 0.2c or better. It would smash the Earth so hard, it would likely liquidize the planets surface, while ejecting a similar sized hunk of molten rock from the other side off into orbit. Nothing would survive.

If Scenario 1 were true and the 'Police' had the presence and willpower to actually wipe out a species/planet then we would likely be forced into a process of submission and co-operation to survive. If the Police were governed by a council or body of members made from the planets that are 'policed' then I would insist that the nations of Earth join this membership and work toward getting representation in said council to gain influence in our favour.

We'd probably have to possess a significant military presence in our Sol system to be able to rebel against these police if we really wished to - for instance if their ideological beliefs were just too different for us to go along with.

Scenario 2 - I'd likely take an approach of trade and scientific interests first, if we somehow managed ourselves to be able to find other sentient and technologically advanced species then I imagine we'd gain more from sharing/mashing culture, trade and technology together than ignoring the species or conquering them.

It would probably be a wise idea to found a Forum or Council in which representatives/diplomats from different planets could communicate safely with one another but to become the 'police' - I think that would have more of a detrimental effect on everyone.

Suffer not the xenos to live.

"Rouge" state? You mean a "lipstick" state?
Exactly! The one thing they'll never expect: a race entirely composed of transsexuals, transvestites and/or women.

As for aliens: Normally I'd go with a policy of shoot to kill and then shoot them again a few more times. However, assuming that there is one obviously superior race, we should play by the corny rules they've created and join their United Planets (or whatever). Then destroy them from the inside.
If we're the obviously superior race, then I, as supreme leader of mankind, would have to do absolutely nothing. Earth's various international (interplanetary at this point, I guess) corporations would see to the ruthless exploitation of anything that can't shoot back or run away fast enough.

Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?

The prime directive.

1) I'd take offense to being treated like a child by a species with a massive superiority and control complex (I bet they can't play sports or talk to girls either)

we don't want people to start associating us now do we?

2) kill them off, take their land and go there for vacation

my obvious option is for responsible impartiality.

responsibility?! *gets a planetary mortgage and a telecommunication based job*

If you want totally immolate the planetary surface and leave nothing alive, you'd be better off pointing a moon sized rock at Earth an accelerating it to somewhere around 0.2c or better. It would smash the Earth so hard, it would likely liquidize the planets surface, while ejecting a similar sized hunk of molten rock from the other side off into orbit. Nothing would survive.

it would be so cool to do this >_>

Senario

...and, btw, it's "scenario". Like in "scenery", "scenography", "obscene"...

If Scenario 1 were true and the 'Police' had the presence and willpower to actually wipe out a species/planet then we would likely be forced into a process of submission and co-operation to survive.

I wouldn't call it "police" in that case. I would call them BIFIFOS. Bloody Imperialistic Foreign Invaders From Outer Space.

For senario one, I'd suggest we play by their rules if possible, and attempt to gain whatever influence/assistance in upgrading our tech that we can.

For senario two, I'd advocate a Star Trek Prime Directive-style policy of non-interference, with some notable alterations. First, interference would be allowed to protect an intelligent species or biosphere from extinction, and to save human lives (at least in some situations). Second, the cut-off for allowing open contact would be something like radio communications and/or nuclear technology, not warp drives. :)
If Scenario 1 were true and the 'Police' had the presence and willpower to actually wipe out a species/planet then we would likely be forced into a process of submission and co-operation to survive. If the Police were governed by a council or body of members made from the planets that are 'policed' then I would insist that the nations of Earth join this membership and work toward getting representation in said council to gain influence in our favour.

We'd probably have to possess a significant military presence in our Sol system to be able to rebel against these police if we really wished to - for instance if their ideological beliefs were just too different for us to go along with.

Scenario 2 - I'd likely take an approach of trade and scientific interests first, if we somehow managed ourselves to be able to find other sentient and technologically advanced species then I imagine we'd gain more from sharing/mashing culture, trade and technology together than ignoring the species or conquering them.

It would probably be a wise idea to found a Forum or Council in which representatives/diplomats from different planets could communicate safely with one another but to become the 'police' - I think that would have more of a detrimental effect on everyone.
Agreed with these two - Scenario One seems to have no (intelligent) outcome besides conforming to the already existing power structure, though we should absolutely try to maneuver ourselves into as many positions of power as we can. Scenario Two seems like a good opportunity to bring Roddenberry's ideas to life. Prime Directive ftw!

Suffer not the xenos to live.

For the Emperor!

aliens don't exist /thread

aliens don't exist /thread

Statistical probability alone suggests that you're wrong.

Statistical probability alone suggests that you're wrong.

however that doesn't equal proof now does it and considering how bizarre it is that we haven't noticed well...anything just adds to the question

so how about we start thinking about a universe completely uninhabited seeing as how that seems to of been the case when we dreamed of a civilization on the moon

however that doesn't equal proof now does it and considering how bizarre it is that we haven't noticed well...anything just adds to the question

So? Space is big, and our searching has by and large been rather half-assed. Leaving aside the possibility that aliens are deliberately avoiding contact for whatever reason.

so how about we start thinking about a universe completely uninhabited seeing as how that seems to of been the case when we dreamed of a civilization on the moon

That fact that their was no civilization on the Moon is not proof that their is no alien civilization at all.

So? Space is big, and our searching has by and large been rather half-assed. Leaving aside the possibility that aliens are deliberately avoiding contact for whatever reason.

1) we shouldn't need to search when even our primitive civilization has been giving off radio signals for yonks

hell Earth itself is a practical gem when it comes to supporting life *waits for the inevitable "but why would alien life be at home on Earth" ignoring the obvious need for oxygen to support advanced life*

2) why would aliens go through the trouble of hiding themselves

That fact that their was no civilization on the Moon is not proof that their is no alien civilization at all.

however it is proof of how the humans will try to see life everywhere despite any facts that may arise

1) we shouldn't need to search when even our primitive civilization has been giving off radio signals for yonks

hell Earth itself is a practical gem when it comes to supporting life *waits for the inevitable "but why would alien life be at home on Earth" ignoring the obvious need for oxygen to support advanced life*

How do we know that the aliens would depend on oxygen? I do we know Earth is so unusual, or that the aliens don't prefer to build colonies in space rather than on planetary surfaces? How do we know the aliens wouldn't have environmental protection laws that keep them from colonizing Earth?

2) why would aliens go through the trouble of hiding themselves

Isolationist policies, other priorities, wanting to observe us secretly, etc...

Or you could speculate that maybe they don't really care about hiding, but don't consider us to have reached a level of intelligence that would warrant attempts to "make contact." When I hear UFO stories, for example, the impression I get is of a relationship similar to the one we have with Chimpanzees. We may observe them, study them, even capture them, and we don't really care if they see us, but it would never occure to our governments to "make contact" with the chimp's leaders.

<snippety>

it would be so cool to do this >_>

How to Destroy the Earth (http://qntm.org/?destroy)

How do we know that the aliens would depend on oxygen?

because its efficient and plentiful once life gets going

its like the people who claim greys exist despite them being anatomically ridiculous

I do we know Earth is so unusual

yes, to have an Earth like ours is stupidly lucky...I mean just look at the lunar orbit

or that the aliens don't prefer to build colonies in space rather than on planetary surfaces?

do we build enormous sea colonies? no because its a massive headache when you could settle on a planetary surface and thrive

How do we know the aliens wouldn't have environmental protection laws that keep them from colonizing Earth?

because then we would see a giant fence and park rangers dicking about saving endangered species

Isolationist policies, other priorities, wanting to observe us secretly, etc...

why?

When I hear UFO stories, for example

your credibility just took a rather enormous dent

because its efficient and plentiful once life gets going

Looking at our own solar system, oxygen isn't that abundant. However life evolves on a planet, there's no guarantee that it'll be an oxygen breathing one.


yes, to have an Earth like ours is stupidly lucky...I mean just look at the lunar orbit

No, no, no. That's just the sort of silly thinking Creationists like to use as proof of 'goddidit'. Environment does not suit to life. Life suits to environment. You take any living sample from an undersea volcanic vent (originally regarded as so toxic no life could live there) and bring it to the surface and it'll die in short order, and vice versa.


do we build enormous sea colonies? no because its a massive headache when you could settle on a planetary surface and thrive

Nitpick. Land reclamation and artificial islands are the equivalent of building a sea colony, and have certainly taken place in Japan, Dubai and various other locations around the globe.

If habitable space is lacking, then the next logical step would be to build habitable space once the technology allows for it.

yes, to have an Earth like ours is stupidly lucky...I mean just look at the lunar orbitGiven the number of stars in existence... Also keep in mind that Earth evolved life well before we got the present, stable and friendly conditions. Given the obscenely difficult conditions we now know life can exist in, it'd honestly be a little bit surprising if it was only Earth having life in this solar system alone. Simple lifeforms can quite easily live without such silly things as, say, sunlight...

Looking at our own solar system, oxygen isn't that abundant. However life evolves on a planet, there's no guarantee that it'll be an oxygen breathing one.Indeed not, given that life on Earth didn't start oxygen-breathing, and - according to our present understanding - came close to being killed off in Earth' first ever environmental disaster when it started producing it.

However, the probability of life eventually evolving to be oxygen-breathing is pretty high.No, no, no. That's just the sort of silly thinking Creationists like to use as proof of 'goddidit'. Environment does not suit to life. Life suits to environment. You take any living sample from an undersea volcanic vent (originally regarded as so toxic no life could live there) and bring it to the surface and it'll die in short order, and vice versa.Neither. Life suits environment, but eventually moves on and shapes this environment so it suits life (Or not). You don't even need human-level intelligence to do it, hell, you don't even need to be an eukaryote :-p

Looking at our own solar system, oxygen isn't that abundant. However life evolves on a planet, there's no guarantee that it'll be an oxygen breathing one.

oxygen becomes abundant once bacteria really start eating all the [common gas that I forget the name of] and life learns that burning oxygen is super duper efficient (which leads to complex life)

in short oxygen is one of the most poisonous gases around but its so damn good life has evolved to thrive on the stuff

Life suits to environment.

I contest that environment suits life which is why it exists there in the first place *points at desolate moon and such*

yes life can exist in some pretty amazing places but well if for example the lunar orbit was closer the planet would be wrecked by a giant super faced oceanic tidal waves (which the moon was at one point and its theorized that this was needed to get the first strands of RNA started by filling the water with...everything)

Nitpick. Land reclamation and artificial islands are the equivalent of building a sea colony, and have certainly taken place in Japan, Dubai and various other locations around the globe.

yes and you can see how much of a clusterfuck that is :p

If habitable space is lacking, then the next logical step would be to build habitable space once the technology allows for it.

which is stupid difficult what with evolving on a terrestrial planet with dandy things like atmosphere and being hard to break

Scenario 1: You are assuming, of course, that the Interstellar Police won't take one look at us and slap us into quarantine immediately. Barring that, our wishes will be moot. We will either join or be ignored. Nothing we could do would possibly harm their culture. We would be insignificant.

Scenario 2: A sad possibility to ponder, considering humanity's desire for a higher power. I imagine we would make several high-sounding policies and, in reality, muddle along as best we could. Point to ponder: How could we guarantee oversight of policy over interstellar distances when we can't even accomplish it over a distance of a few miles?

Scenario 1: You are assuming, of course, that the Interstellar Police won't take one look at us and slap us into quarantine immediately. Barring that, our wishes will be moot. We will either join or be ignored. Nothing we could do would possibly harm their culture. We would be insignificant.

Scenario 2: A sad possibility to ponder, considering humanity's desire for a higher power. I imagine we would make several high-sounding policies and, in reality, muddle along as best we could. Point to ponder: How could we guarantee oversight of policy over interstellar distances when we can't even accomplish it over a distance of a few miles?

I enjoy that a lot of sci-fi out there doesn't immediately cater to the "we have warp drive so the next system over is just a button away" thing. Maintaining control over such a distance is going to be (at least in the beginning, if we aren't simply absorbed by a more advanced culture) slow, detached and largely ineffectual.

Given the current thread on the number of alien civilizations, and specifically Cameroi's implication of a hypothetical alien faction that acts as a "police force" for the various civilizations, I thought I'd ask these two related questions.

Senario One: you are in charge of drafting Earth's new policy for contact with extraterrestrials. Following First Contact, we have discovered that their is an extremely advanced civilization that acts as a "police force" for others, maintaining interstellar peace, order, and law. How should we respond to this? Should we accept this organization's control, or become a "rouge state"?

Senario Two: We have encountered many other civilizations, but none more high-tech or powerful than ourselves. Thus, we are in a position to become the "police men" (or invaders). What policy would you suggest we should pursue for dealing with less "advanced" civilizations?

Scenario One: We become a rogue state.

Scenario two: Trade/cooperation. And if they have stuff that we really need invade!

I enjoy that a lot of sci-fi out there doesn't immediately cater to the "we have warp drive so the next system over is just a button away" thing. Maintaining control over such a distance is going to be (at least in the beginning, if we aren't simply absorbed by a more advanced culture) slow, detached and largely ineffectual.

I think the word you're looking for is "impossible, at least by coercive means". When the fastest you can possibly attack rebels will take years, and be based on information that is years old, the entire power dynamic will change very dramatically.

Any extraterrestrials capable of practical starflight would have no interest in negotiating with us.

We would have no ability to resist anything they decided to do.

I think the word you're looking for is "impossible, at least by coercive means". When the fastest you can possibly attack rebels will take years, and be based on information that is years old, the entire power dynamic will change very dramatically.

In all likelihood, the first instances of planetary colonization will be of the "here's your ship, have fun, see you never" variety.

In all likelihood, the first instances of planetary colonization will be of the "here's your ship, have fun, see you never" variety.

When we're talking about interstellar work, they have to be.

In system, of course, it's a whole different ball game.

1) I for one step forward and volunteer as Earth's Green Lantern!

http://www.80stees.com/images/products/Green_Lantern-Ring2.jpg

2) I'd advocate implementing the Prime Directive.

Well frankly, any interplanetary, never mind interstellar civilization could destroy us if they wished. They could fire thousands of nukes, or more efficiently, attach an engine to an asteroid and slowly alter its course to put it on a collision course with Earth.
Thousands of nukes?! Do you have any idea how much energy it should take to reach even one time the speed of light? (wholly deficient for interstellar travel, hell at that speed it would still take some time just to move around the solar system.) Power in the magnitude of our sun! Any interstellar civilization that made it here, would have much better ways of annihilating everything.