NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090205/METRO/902050327/1409/METRO

French government claims Great Lakes shipwreck
Michigan says it owns 17th-century ship some believe was built by the explorer LaSalle.
John Flesher / Associated Press

TRAVERSE CITY -- The French government says it still owns the Griffin, a 17th-century ship built by legendary explorer La Salle that may have been discovered in northern Lake Michigan.

France filed a claim to the vessel Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Grand Rapids, escalating a legal battle over who owns and has authority to retrieve artifacts from the long-lost vessel.

Michigan also is seeking title, although state officials have raised doubts about whether the Griffin's gravesite actually has been found. They say federal law gives the state ownership of abandoned vessels embedded in its Great Lakes bottomlands.

A private group, Great Lakes Exploration LLC, located what it says may be the Griffin's wreckage in 2001. It wants to be appointed custodian until the courts determine ownership and salvage rights.

The precise site has not been publicly revealed, but is believed to be between Escanaba and the St. Martin Islands, near Wisconsin.

The Griffin (also spelled "Griffon") disappeared on its maiden voyage in 1679 after embarking from an island near Green Bay, Wis., with a crew of six and a cargo of furs and other goods.

France filed paperwork with the court this week to meet a deadline for avoiding loss of rights to the ship, a spokesman for the French embassy in Washington said Thursday.

Who should own things like this, the originating European power or the people who live where they explored?

And a bit of randomness, the golden bird avatar I had until recently was a griffin, which the Michigan National Guard took as it's symbol in honor of La Salle.

Give me access to a few depth charges and I can clear up this legal mess. :)

Nice avatar.

Give me access to a few depth charges and I can clear up this legal mess. :)

Easier:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/DeathStar3.jpg

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090205/METRO/902050327/1409/METRO



Who should own things like this, the originating European power or the people who live where they explored?

And a bit of randomness, the golden bird avatar I had until recently was a griffin, which the Michigan National Guard took as it's symbol in honor of La Salle.

Let it sit at the bottom of the lake. Let the environment consume it.

Well if it was a private and unclaimed vessel... Then I guess Michigan or Wisconsin should get it... But if it was originally a French Gov't owned boat... Then I guess they should pay the people who locate it some sort of award and take the boat.

Interestingggggg

I say that, if they didn't find it in 100 years, then it's anyone's game. After all, all the original people involved are now dead.

i believe that the international standard on this kind of thing is

finders keepers losers weepers.

It is clearly salvage, it belongs to the state of Michigan and the divers.

Nice avatar.

It was that or this.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/tuebor/162661497438a315b327e5.gif

Give me access to a few depth charges and I can clear up this legal mess. :)

I'd wait until summer, it's really cold in the lakes right now.

Let it sit at the bottom of the lake. Let the environment consume it.

Shouldn't we preserve our history?

Well if it was a private and unclaimed vessel... Then I guess Michigan or Wisconsin should get it... But if it was originally a French Gov't owned boat... Then I guess they should pay the people who locate it some sort of award and take the boat.

Interestingggggg

The French government that owned it was deposed about 220 years ago. There have been several governments in between, including occupation by Germany. I think that ownership is, at best, clouded.

They're welcome to try and get past the Michigan Navy's fleet of hydrogen powered attack submarines, and our land based antiship missiles.

Oh wait, those don't exist. :(

The French government that owned it was deposed about 220 years ago. There have been several governments in between, including occupation by Germany. I think that ownership is, at best, clouded.

Yes, but the current Republic of France is successor to the Kingdom of France that existed at the time, similar to Russia and the USSR.

France clearly has no valid claim. Maritime Law is quite clear on the subject of salvage - in international waters, "finders keepers". In National waters, by the laws of the nation holding claim on those waters - and I know of NO case where abandoned/derelict items can be reclaimed by previous owners.

I'd put money on France being shit out of luck on winning this case. Clearly it's an abandoned wreck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_Shipwrecks_Act

Since the Griffin was a trading ship, it doesn't appear to fall under the exclusion.

Yes, but the current Republic of France is successor to the Kingdom of France that existed at the time, similar to Russia and the USSR.

But if the original USSR can cancel debts and declare treaty null and void, certainly the First Republic or Empire could have.

i believe that the international standard on this kind of thing is finders keepers losers weepers.

Actually I think that the international laws on sunken ships etc. allow the french government to hold the wreckage as french territory. Just as the wreck of the Bismarck is german territory.
(Beats me why, btw, but international seafaring laws are based on centuries and hundreds of complicated rulings and treatises... and they just look plain silly).

But if the original USSR can cancel debts and declare treaty null and void, certainly the First Republic or Empire could have.

Well yes, but that's more a function of being a sovereign state than the changing of forms of government.

Actually I think that the international laws on sunken ships etc. allow the french government to hold the wreckage as french territory. Just as the wreck of the Bismarck is german territory.
(Beats me why, btw, but international seafaring laws are based on centuries and hundreds of complicated rulings and treatises... and they just look plain silly).

Didn't the Bismark sink in international waters? The Griffon sank in (what is now) US territorial waters.

This one's fairly easy.

The international, but US-based, archaeological professional organisation of which I'm a board member has been very active recently in marine salvage issues, particularly as regards the interaction between international law and salvage operations that the profession would define as 'treasure hunters' (organisations that sell the artefacts from a wreck to generate their profit).

If the vessel in question here is a military vessel, it usually remains the technical property of the original government, regardless of where it was found - though there are some exceptions. The Spanish government is particularly active in pursuing its claims to sunken vessels in international waters or the waters of other sovereign states. Private vessels in territorial waters are the property of the appropriate local government authority (as determined by the government statutes of that state). Private vessels in international waters are anyone's game.

In countries that have ratified the Convention (which doesn't include the US or the UK, though the UK government has pledged to respect the Convention without ratifying it), recovery of underwater cultural heritage is covered by the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.

While the US hasn't ratified the Convention, the US has an active and highly ethical underwater archaeology community, many of whom I know personally and hold in the highest professional regard.

A couple of links that may interest those who want to explore the topic further, including a recent relevant news story involving a US salvage company operating off Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNESCO_Convention_on_the_Protection_of_the_Underwater_Cultural_Heritage

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/intrepid-treasurehunters-ndash-or-archaeological-vandals-1543642.html


EDIT:

In the specific case of the OP, my understanding is that, according to international law, the French government still owns the Griffin. However, US courts may decide that the state of Michigan isn't bound by international law in this case as the US isn't a signatory to the UNESCO convention, and the Griffin was found in US waters. This would place the US and Michigan in contravention of international law and UN conventions, but I somehow doubt a major international incident's going to result over one shipwreck. It would, however, leave an unfortunate impression.

If the vessel in question here is a military vessel, it usually remains the technical property of the original government, regardless of where it was found

And there is the difficulty. I don't believe the Griffon was commissioned as a military vessel, it was constructed with La Salle's personal funds, but I think France will be arguing that it was temporarily seconded to the French military for the duration of it's mission.

I truly think that the artifacts belong to the country that explored. In other words, all the Egyptian artifacts in the British Art Museum belong to Egypt and should be returned to the Egyptian people by the British government.

All the gold my people took and used to enrich the coffers of the kingdom and the altarpieces of the churches throughout Spain, gold that was bloodily snatched from the hands of the Aztecs and the Inca, should be returned to Peru and Mexico. But this is just something I firmly believe.

I truly think that the artifacts belong to the country that explored. In other words, all the Egyptian artifacts in the British Art Museum belong to Egypt and should be returned to the Egyptian people by the British government.

All the gold my people took and used to enrich the coffers of the kingdom and the altarpieces of the churches throughout Spain, gold that was bloodily snatched from the hands of the Aztecs and the Inca, should be returned to Peru and Mexico. But this is just something I firmly believe.

I think you were the first to really get what I was asking. Not who should get it by the current laws, but who should actually have a right to it.

Since the French clearly think that 'finders keepers' isn't the international standard for this kind of thing, I wonder whether they will now return any ancient antiquities obtained in their colonies to their pre-imperial owners?

I think you were the first to really get what I was asking. Not who should get it by the current laws, but who should actually have a right to it.

Indeed. The right of ownership should always belong to the culture the items belonged to, not what the law states.

Actually I think that the international laws on sunken ships etc. allow the french government to hold the wreckage as french territory. Just as the wreck of the Bismarck is german territory.
(Beats me why, btw, but international seafaring laws are based on centuries and hundreds of complicated rulings and treatises... and they just look plain silly).
im pretty sure you will find that i am right.

although there may be some concessions made to france for political reasons.

Indeed. The right of ownership should always belong to the culture the items belonged to, not what the law states.

I agree completely, but this vessel was most certainly of French origin. I would argue that it was far more integral to the history of what was then New France than to France itself.

France has been trying to nab shipwrecks all over the place it seems; this is like the 5th one I have heard of in the last year... I'll see if I can find more.

Maybe that's France's new idea for economic stimulus?

Let's consult the British Museum. It's full of stuff stolen from everywhere else...

I agree completely, but this vessel was most certainly of French origin. I would argue that it was far more integral to the history of what was then New France than to France itself.

This ship would surely belong in a Michigan or a Quebec museum.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090205/METRO/902050327/1409/METRO



Who should own things like this, the originating European power or the people who live where they explored?

And a bit of randomness, the golden bird avatar I had until recently was a griffin, which the Michigan National Guard took as it's symbol in honor of La Salle.

Finders keepers; losers weepers.

One of the first lessons people learn.

Finders keepers; losers weepers.

One of the first lessons people learn.

and one of the first they abandon, once they, you know, grow up.

I think it belongs to Ohio.

We pwn Michigan anyhoo.

and one of the first they abandon, once they, you know, grow up.

Jesus Christ Neo, you have no sense of fucking humor. Give it a fucking rest.

Jesus Christ Neo, you have no sense of fucking humor. Give it a fucking rest.

tsk tsk, I'd advise you to control that temper.

Well, I think the French might have had a case if they hadn't gone along with that Louisiana Purchase, or whatever they call it in France. What's the French word for rip-off?

tsk tsk, I'd advise you to control that temper.

That was exasperation. You don't seem to be very good at reading emotions.

That was exasperation.

If an internet forum populated by people you have never, and will never meet, gets you that exasperated, I suggest that this may be too stressful for you to handle.

If an internet forum populated by people you have never, and will never meet, gets you that exasperated, I suggest that this may be too stressful for you to handle.

:p:eek2::mad::confused::D:(:eek::sniper::headbang:

lulwut

:p:eek2::mad::confused::D:(:eek::sniper::headbang:

lulwut

I can see the stress is already taking its toll.

"exploration", or invasion, exploitation, usurpation and genocide?

"exploration", or invasion, exploitation, usurpation and genocide?

Either way, the countries of North America aren't exactly the successor countries of the First Nations: they're either the successor countries of the invading-exploiting-etc countries (British Empire) or exactly the same country who invaded-exploited-etc (USA).

So, no claims can be taken on reason of higher moral grounds.

Didn't the Bismark sink in international waters? The Griffon sank in (what is now) US territorial waters.

Yes, the Bismarck sunk way off in North Atlantic AND it's German territory. This at least proves that the idea that "international waters => finders keepers" isn't quite correct.

About the law in territorial waters, I don't know.

This one's fairly easy.
...


Thanks, this was what I call a clear explanation.

I think it belongs to Ohio.

We pwn Michigan anyhoo.

We're still ahead 57-42-6.

"exploration", or invasion, exploitation, usurpation and genocide?

All of the above.

Thanks, this was what I call a clear explanation.

Except it's somewhat unclear if the Griffon would be considered a "military vessel".

La Salle funded his expeditions privately by selling land. Le Griffon is not nor has it ever been a Government vessel of France. That being said France has no claim to the vessel save on historic/cultural grounds and those claims are matched if not exceeded by the current states in the great lake area.

La Salle funded his expeditions privately by selling land. Le Griffon is not nor has it ever been a Government vessel of France. That being said France has no claim to the vessel save on historic/cultural grounds and those claims are matched if not exceeded by the current states in the great lack area.

The lack? The area lacks something?:confused:

I think that as the ship was not a military vessel, it belongs to the local authorities - the United States of America, in other words.

And there is the difficulty. I don't believe the Griffon was commissioned as a military vessel, it was constructed with La Salle's personal funds, but I think France will be arguing that it was temporarily seconded to the French military for the duration of it's mission.

Fur trading was a french military mission in 1679?

The lack? The area lacks something?:confused:

can we get passed the typos Spaniard.

Can we get past the typos, Spaniard?

Fixed.

can we get passed the typos Spaniard.

No, it's fun not to, Gringo.

Fixed.

No, it's fun not to, Gringo.

HELP HELP !! I am being attacked by Grammar Nazis !!!

I think European artifacts of exploration in the New World are absolutely vital to the British Economy.

I dunno, Nan, I'm not sure there are sufficient aggregate worth to make an appreciable difference on something like that...

I dunno, Nan, I'm not sure there are sufficient aggregate worth to make an appreciable difference on something like that...

Why do you adore me so much?

Why do you adore me so much?

Do you want the real answer or the "This one time, me and _____ were in ________ answer?"

Do you want the real answer or the "This one time, me and _____ were in ________ answer?"

I would so like to hear the real answer.

I would so like to hear the real answer.

Very well.

[Enter Serious Mode]
I adore you because you are congenial without being condescending. You voice opinions with confidence but not arrogance. You are young, but already cultured. You are sweet, but fiesty. You are smart, yet silly.

I adore you because my mind is dying and I can't stop it, but had this been a world full of people like you, I might have endured.[End Serious Mode]

Very well.

[Enter Serious Mode]
I adore you because you are congenial without being condescending. You voice opinions with confidence but not arrogance. You are young, but already cultured. You are sweet, but fiesty. You are smart, yet silly.

I adore you because my mind is dying and I can't stop it, but had this been a world full of people like you, I might have endured.[End Serious Mode]

If you were real, I would consider becoming a lesbian just for you.


You do not cease to amaze me.