NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/05/army.suicides/index.html

One week after the U.S. Army announced record suicide rates among its soldiers last year, the service is worried about a spike in possible suicides in the new year.
If reports of suicides are confirmed, more soldiers will have taken their lives in January than died in combat.

If reports of suicides are confirmed, more soldiers will have taken their lives in January than died in combat.

The Army said 24 soldiers are believed to have committed suicide in January alone -- six times as many as killed themselves in January 2008, according to statistics released Thursday.

The Army said it already has confirmed seven suicides, with 17 additional cases pending that it believes investigators will confirm as suicides for January.

If those prove true, more soldiers will have killed themselves than died in combat last month. According to Pentagon statistics, there were 16 U.S. combat deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq in January.

"This is terrifying," an Army official said. "We do not know what is going on."

Col. Kathy Platoni, chief clinical psychologist for the Army Reserve and National Guard, said that the long, cold months of winter could be a major contributor to the January spike.

"There is more hopelessness and helplessness because everything is so dreary and cold," she said.
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But Platoni said she sees the multiple deployments, stigma associated with seeking treatment and the excessive use of anti-depressants as ongoing concerns for mental-health professionals who work with soldiers.

Those who are seeking mental-health care often have their treatment disrupted by deployments. Deployed soldiers also have to deal with the stress of separations from families.

"When people are apart you have infidelity, financial problems, substance abuse and child behavioral problems," Platoni said. "The more deployments, the more it is exacerbated."

Platoni also said that while the military has made a lot of headway in training leaders on how to deal with soldiers who may be suffering from depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, "there is still a huge problem with leadership who shame them when they seek treatment."

The anti-depressants prescribed to soldiers can have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Those side effects reportedly are more common in people 18 to 24.

Concern about last month's suicide rate was so high, Congress and the Army leadership were briefed. In addition, the Army took the rare step of releasing data for the month rather than waiting to issue it as part of annual statistics at the end of the year.

In January 2008, the Army recorded two confirmed cases of suicides and two other cases it was investigating.

Last week, in releasing the report that showed a record number of suicides in 2008, the Army said it soon will conduct servicewide training to help identify soldiers at risk of suicide.

The program, which will run February 15 through March 15, will include training to recognize behaviors that may lead to suicide and instruction on how to intervene. The Army will follow the training with another teaching program, from March 15 to June 15, focused on suicide prevention at all unit levels.

The 2008 numbers were the highest annual level of suicides among soldiers since the Pentagon began tracking the rate 28 years ago. The Army said 128 soldiers were confirmed to have committed suicide in 2008, and an additional 15 were suspected of having killed themselves. The statistics cover active-duty soldiers and activated National Guard and reserves.

The Army's confirmed rate of suicides in 2008 was 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers. The nation's suicide rate was 19.5 per 100,000 people in 2005, the most recent figure available, Army officials said last month.

Suicides for Marines were also up in 2008. There were 41 in 2008, up from 33 in 2007 and 25 in 2006, according to a Marines report.

In addition to the new training, the service has a program called Battlemind, intended to prepare soldiers and their families to cope with the stresses of war before, during and after deployment. It also is intended to help detect mental-health issues before and after deployments.

The Army and the National Institute of Mental Health signed an agreement in October to conduct research to identify factors affecting the mental and behavioral health of soldiers and to share strategies to lower the suicide rate. The five-year study will examine active-duty, National Guard and reserve soldiers and their families.

This is a sad story, but this is even more sad:


"This is terrifying," an Army official said. "We do not know what is going on."

How about the fact that you are keeping people past their tour limits? Or how about not providing them with adequate armor and weaponry? How about your health care for them being terrible? How about the conditions you keep them in year after year with no end in sight? I can think of a bunch of reasons why so many soldiers are committing suicide, and all of them are rooted in the leadership both of the past 8 years and present. These soldiers sign up to give their lives to protect American interests, and walk all over them. How are they supposed to react?

Also, on a side note :
The anti-depressants prescribed to soldiers can have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Those side effects reportedly are more common in people 18 to 24

Why do side effects fail?

Also, on a side note :
The anti-depressants prescribed to soldiers can have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Those side effects reportedly are more common in people 18 to 24

Why do side effects fail?

Thats a side effect in every anti-depressent. If its not the right one, the one that doesnt "work" for you, it can actually make it worse.

Thats a side effect in every anti-depressent. If its not the right one, the one that doesnt "work" for you, it can actually make it worse.

I saw a commercial once where the side affect was asthma related death, when it was trying to ease asthma. Or another one that would give you rectal bleeding, and other anal leakage. That doesn't seem to pleasant.

They don't know what's going on? What -- do they think the soldier factory sent them defective models? What assholes.

How about they've got all these soldiers trapped in an endless tour in hell, against an invisible enemy, with no mission but what they made up for themselves when they got there?

How about they ripped apart families, driving many into destitution? How about the people the troops are absolutely dependent on to safeguard their futures reneged on every single agreement they made?

How about they virtually abandoned the troops who were finally allowed to come home because they were too wounded to be sent back into the meat grinder? How about they just tried to throw away and forget all the ones who gave their lives for this bullshit war, and didn't even let the nation mourn them properly?

Rightwingers are always complaining that the press don't give a real impression of what's going on over there. Well, as far as I'm concerned, this is the real impression, right here.

They don't know what's going on? What -- do they think the soldier factory sent them defective models? What assholes.

How about they've got all these soldiers trapped in an endless tour in hell, against an invisible enemy, with no mission but what they made up for themselves when they got there?

How about they ripped apart families, driving many into destitution? How about the people the troops are absolutely dependent on to safeguard their futures reneged on every single agreement they made?

How about they virtually abandoned the troops who were finally allowed to come home because they were too wounded to be sent back into the meat grinder? How about they just tried to throw away and forget all the ones who gave their lives for this bullshit war, and didn't even let the nation mourn them properly?

Rightwingers are always complaining that the press don't give a real impression of what's going on over there. Well, as far as I'm concerned, this is the real impression, right here.

So, you're against their mission, huh?

Why do you hate the troops, Muravyets?

That's pretty messed up, Muravyets.

Stop giving aid to the enemy by showing authentic regard for our troops, Muravyets.

They don't know what's going on? What -- do they think the soldier factory sent them defective models? What assholes.

How about they've got all these soldiers trapped in an endless tour in hell, against an invisible enemy, with no mission but what they made up for themselves when they got there?

How about they ripped apart families, driving many into destitution? How about the people the troops are absolutely dependent on to safeguard their futures reneged on every single agreement they made?

How about they virtually abandoned the troops who were finally allowed to come home because they were too wounded to be sent back into the meat grinder? How about they just tried to throw away and forget all the ones who gave their lives for this bullshit war, and didn't even let the nation mourn them properly?

Rightwingers are always complaining that the press don't give a real impression of what's going on over there. Well, as far as I'm concerned, this is the real impression, right here.



Part of me thinks the army knows exactly why. Problem is, they cant really say "Well, because of the massive clusterfuck we had for the last eight years because of idiot rightwingers, our troops are suicidal."

So, you're against their mission, huh?

Why do you hate the troops, Muravyets?

That's pretty messed up, Muravyets.

Stop giving aid to the enemy by showing authentic regard for our troops, Muravyets.

Thats why their suicidal! Because so many Americans hate them and constantly embolden the enemy! It all makes sense now!

in before the election of the Dark Lord is blamed for the downturn in the morale of the troops who know they're gonna get fucked by the Orc Democrat Party who hates the military and freedom.

in before the election of the Dark Lord is blamed for the downturn in the morale of the troops who know they're gonna get fucked by the Orc Democrat Party who hates the military and freedom.

You know, Im suprised no one has said that yet.

Part of me thinks the army knows exactly why. Problem is, they cant really say "Well, because of the massive clusterfuck we had for the last eight years because of idiot rightwingers, our troops are suicidal."

Heh, there's some credibility to that.

What else could get them to just flat out say "We have no idea why our men are eating 5.56 for breakfast", unless the truth was worse than merely command-level ignorance?

Part of me thinks the army knows exactly why. Problem is, they cant really say "Well, because of the massive clusterfuck we had for the last eight years because of idiot rightwingers, our troops are suicidal."

That may be part of it.

And yes, chasing Casper the friendly fucking ghost for 12 months in a row drives you up the wall. The death of a close friend of mine sent me almost into depression, I was able to recover.

My personal thoughts are a lot simpler. America's troops get sent out on a mission. They get hit/attacked/blown up. They cannot tell who did it/where they are/etc... Now under the current ROE, they can do exactly...dick. Soldiers and Marines are afraid to shoot back because killing the wrong person in a firefight can now get you sentenced to prison. On top of that, most of the mid-level commanders I've heard talk care more about their promotions and status than their troops, and their priorities lie more with "Hearts and Minds," then "Bring them back home." Believe me, in country most soldiers don't care about the grand political spectrum or whose fault it is, it's the place they are, the lack of morale, and the lack of care...

in before the election of the Dark Lord is blamed for the downturn in the morale of the troops who know they're gonna get fucked by the Orc Democrat Party who hates the military and freedom.

I hope very much that there is sharp sudden downturn in these suicides.

I also hope, to a lesser extent, that many of them voice (once discharged) that what gave them a ray of hope is the new administration.

in before the election of the Dark Lord is blamed for the downturn in the morale of the troops who know they're gonna get fucked by the Orc Democrat Party who hates the military and freedom.

Damn, you beat me to it.

I saw a commercial once where the side affect was asthma related death, when it was trying to ease asthma. Or another one that would give you rectal bleeding, and other anal leakage. That doesn't seem to pleasant.

That's why you don't take them for fun, but to treat other unpleasant conditions. "Suicidal thoughts" is also a listed side effect on the overwhelming majority of antidepressants. No one is quite sure why yet - one of the best guesses is that getting prescribed a drug gives you something of a "hope spike," and then if it doesn't work for you, it's that much easier to slide into despair.

On the actual topic - it's disgusting, but not surprising. I am particularly repulsed by this little tidbit:

Platoni also said that while the military has made a lot of headway in training leaders on how to deal with soldiers who may be suffering from depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, "there is still a huge problem with leadership who shame them when they seek treatment."

Between this and the several accounts I have read of absolutely abysmal mishandling of rape cases, I do not understand why military leadership contains so many people who appear utterly unfit to lead, but I am increasingly convinced that it does.

Damn, you beat me to it.

Why not take a page out of the radical republican's page about Gitmo suicides and say this?

"Our brave American troops are committing suicide to try and damage the enemy morale and show how evil we are."

Between this and the several accounts I have read of absolutely abysmal mishandling of rape cases, I do not understand why military leadership contains so many people who appear utterly unfit to lead, but I am increasingly convinced that it does.

Have you ever heard the phrase "promoted to the height of one's incompetence"?

And as to the topic, it's probably because of the constant suicide prevention briefs. I know I'm damned sick and tired of sitting through three hours of the chaplain telling me not to kill myself. We always joked about what they'd do if someone killed themselves during one of these briefs.

Severe Taco Withdrawal. :(

Have you ever heard the phrase "promoted to the height of one's incompetence"?


The Peter Principle, yup. It certainly seems to hold true in the military, sadly.

Severe Taco Withdrawal. :(

They have Taco Bell there...

"This is terrifying," an Army official said. "We do not know what is going on."
That's bullshit. They've seen suicide numbers and PTSD cases go up ever since the war started.
They can't really do too much about it because they're in desperate need of manpower, so they send people there who are already unfit to go there in the first place, they medicate those developing psychological problems in the war with anti-depressants instead of taking them out of the war zone, and they actually send people who were sent home with PTSD back to Iraq. They send them back.


It's a second post-Vietnam in the making. Some are saying it'll be worse.


In case anyone is interested, here's some articles from the last few years:

Chedekel, Lisa. „’Jeffrey Was Really Messed up’“. Hartford Courant, 14. Mai 2006. http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-mental1b.artmay14,0,6805642.story

Chedekel, Lisa. „Still Suffering, But Redeployed“. Hartford Courant, 17. Mai 2006.
http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-mental4.artmay17,0,3488576.story

Chedekel, Lisa/ Matthew Kauffman. „Mentally Unfit, Forced to Fight“. Hartford Courant,
14. Mai 2006. http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-mental1a.artmay14,0,6150281.story

Chedekel, Lisa/ Matthew Kauffman. „Potent Mixture: Zoloft & A Rifle“. Hartford Courant, 16. Mai 2006. http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-mental3a.artmay16,0,7723149.story

Davey, Monica. „For Soldiers Back From Iraq, Basic Training in Resuming Life“. New York Times, 19. August 2005. http://nytimes.com/2004/05/31/national/31SOLD.html

Shane, Scott. „A Flood of Troubled Soldiers Is in the Offing, Experts Predict“. New York Times, 16. Dezember 2004. http://nytimes.com/2004/12/16/national/16stress.html

Sontag, Deborah/ Lyzette Alvarez. „Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles“. New York Times, 13. Januar 2008. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html

Sontag, Deborah/ Lyzette Alvarez.. „In More Cases, Combat Trauma Is Taking the Stand“.
New York Times, 27. Januar 2008. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/us/27vets.html

Between this and the several accounts I have read of absolutely abysmal mishandling of rape cases, I do not understand why military leadership contains so many people who appear utterly unfit to lead, but I am increasingly convinced that it does.
It's a factor of where most military types--especially military leaders--tend to come from in the first place. The vast majority are more conservative, socially speaking, and come from a more socially restricted background, often with older beliefs about a lot of different issues we've only recently been able to understand to a much greater detail. Added to that strong military traditions, the ages involved...it's really no wonder.

You're going to have to give the military a few decades to fully catch up.

That's why you don't take them for fun, but to treat other unpleasant conditions. "Suicidal thoughts" is also a listed side effect on the overwhelming majority of antidepressants. No one is quite sure why yet - one of the best guesses is that getting prescribed a drug gives you something of a "hope spike," and then if it doesn't work for you, it's that much easier to slide into despair.

Also, the people taking them tend to be depressed.

I'm just saying.

In my extensive experience with SSRIs, both the "lows" and "highs" of emotional experiences seem to be diminished--I don't feel as depressed or hopeless as I do without them, but I don't feel as joyful or euphoric, either. That in itself can be depressing.

They have Taco Bell there...

It's like fighting heroin withdrawal with caffeine. :(

That's bullshit. They've seen suicide numbers and PTSD cases go up ever since the war started.
They can't really do too much about it because they're in desperate need of manpower, so they send people there who are already unfit to go there in the first place, they medicate those developing psychological problems in the war with anti-depressants instead of taking them out of the war zone, and they actually send people who were sent home with PTSD back to Iraq. They send them back.


It's a second post-Vietnam in the making. Some are saying it'll be worse.



In all seriousness, I really think there needs to be some criminal charges made out against the people who made these decisions. None of this was justified. Our country was not under attack. There was no justification for doing this to these soldiers. There needs to be some limits imposed, and there needs to be some examples made. I don't care how many years it might take to figure out who to charge and with what -- what has been done to our troops cannot be allowed to slide by. I don't give a shit what a soldier "signs up for". Human beings are not a disposable resource, and a government that is supposed to be answerable to its people but who wastes their lives in such a fashion should be made an example of that history, and future leaders, will remember.

Also, the people taking them tend to be depressed.

I'm just saying.

Yeah, that's a factor that the people who did the study that got that listed as a side-effect failed to consider. They couldn't ethically make people who needed antidepressants not go on them, so they compared people with clinical depression severe enough to require antidepressants to people whose clinical depression was not severe enough to require medication.

Also, the people taking them tend to be depressed.

I'm just saying.

In my extensive experience with SSRIs, both the "lows" and "highs" of emotional experiences seem to be diminished--I don't feel as depressed or hopeless as I do without them, but I don't feel as joyful or euphoric, either. That in itself can be depressing.

Well, yes. :p

I've had that with some of them, too - and then there's also been the massive weight gain, or the narcolepsy, or the weird burnt-out feeling....side effects can be pretty damn depressing in their own right.

The Peter Principle, yup. It certainly seems to hold true in the military, sadly.

The military takes it to dizzying new heights.

In all seriousness, I really think there needs to be some criminal charges made out against the people who made these decisions.Let's see... Bush, Rumsfield, Petraeus, Sanchez... (Not sure about Ordieno, yet.)
Definitely not Casey, though.

Also, on a side note :
The anti-depressants prescribed to soldiers can have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Those side effects reportedly are more common in people 18 to 24

Why do side effects fail?
I think that's due to a person on antidepressants gets enough energy back to act on their suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants give you back your energy before taking away the bad thoughts.

Let's see... Bush, Rumsfield, Petraeus, Sanchez... (Not sure about Ordieno, yet.)
Definitely not Casey, though.
You keep compiling that list. I've got a lot of pikes to stick heads up on.

You keep compiling that list. I've got a lot of pikes to stick heads up on.Alright, I'm sure I can hunt down a bunch more. (Can't remember who the head of the Joint Chief's was back then.)

Not one of you guys gets it . . . When you are over there you are so wound up, your adrenalin is always on because anyone of the hundreds of people walking past your post could be carrying a bomb or some weapon with intent to do you or your comrades serious harm. You become hyper vigilant and every odd look, or noise sends you into fight or flight mode. You are a "jolly green giant, walking the earth with guns" you are invincible. Then someone gets killed, and you become even more vigilant. Your in charge of million dollar equipment, and you know how easy it is to take and give life. You become god-like. Now some guys take it to far, and some don't take it far enough, but in the end you ARE at the prime of the animal instincts that we are all born with, yet few ever access.

Then it happens. Your back in a world where there is no use for those animal instincts, and every ass has to ask you if you killed someone, bringing back horrendous memories of the events. The only job you can get is flipping burgers because NO ONE want to hire a guy that could "snap" and kill the whole fucking building. You can't deal with all the loud noises, the traffic, and the undisciplined, stupidity of "normal" people. You go to the Veterans Administration for help and they put you on a six month waiting list. Just a few months ago you were a GOD, now you can't keep your hands from shaking, and your heart from feeling like it is going to explode. Your mind is becoming a traitor, because you can't keep a thought in your head for ten seconds without "snapping" back to the sand box.

Everyday is a struggle to even leave the safety of my house, and all you fuckers can do is whine, bitch and moan about fucking POLITICS, and who to BLAME? Give me a fucking break. You don't know a goddamn thing about it, and you should all pray that you never have to.

Everyday is a struggle to even leave the safety of my house, and all you fuckers can do is whine, bitch and moan about fucking POLITICS, and who to BLAME? Question answered itself, dude.

To the OP, I understand this is very sad and there are many reasons why they may be killing themselves, but I GUARANTEE you its not because they don't have body armor. Your logic as to them killing themselves because they are not protected enough is embarrassing. I also do not think they would kill themselves because they miss their family. I'm sure they would want to live so they could see them again.

@Rhalellan

You are right, what you go through is something most of us will never understand. But what I think you don't understand is POLITICS is what put you through all that so I would say politics is VERY important.

Not one of you guys gets it . . . When you are over there you are so wound up, your adrenalin is always on because anyone of the hundreds of people walking past your post could be carrying a bomb or some weapon with intent to do you or your comrades serious harm. You become hyper vigilant and every odd look, or noise sends you into fight or flight mode. You are a "jolly green giant, walking the earth with guns" you are invincible. Then someone gets killed, and you become even more vigilant. Your in charge of million dollar equipment, and you know how easy it is to take and give life. You become god-like. Now some guys take it to far, and some don't take it far enough, but in the end you ARE at the prime of the animal instincts that we are all born with, yet few ever access.

Then it happens. Your back in a world where there is no use for those animal instincts, and every ass has to ask you if you killed someone, bringing back horrendous memories of the events. The only job you can get is flipping burgers because NO ONE want to hire a guy that could "snap" and kill the whole fucking building. You can't deal with all the loud noises, the traffic, and the undisciplined, stupidity of "normal" people. You go to the Veterans Administration for help and they put you on a six month waiting list. Just a few months ago you were a GOD, now you can't keep your hands from shaking, and your heart from feeling like it is going to explode. Your mind is becoming a traitor, because you can't keep a thought in your head for ten seconds without "snapping" back to the sand box.

Everyday is a struggle to even leave the safety of my house, and all you fuckers can do is whine, bitch and moan about fucking POLITICS, and who to BLAME? Give me a fucking break. You don't know a goddamn thing about it, and you should all pray that you never have to.

What makes you think we don't get it? Have I lived through it? No, I only know about everything you just described from accounts of people like you. Does that mean I don't get it? No.

So what do you want us to do if not look at the people who did this to the soldiers, who are responsible for cutting the funding from the VA so you're put on a six months waiting list instead of getting therapy and medication, who are responsible for sending guys off into a war that never should have been fought in the first place when they KNOW that what you described is what it will do to the men and women who fight in it? The people who will send guys like you back for a second and third tour to the place that broke them, because they're running out of men?

Do you want us to not talk about it at all? Because we're not living it? Then nobody would even fucking know about it besides immediate family of soldiers, no one would be writing any articles about it, no one would know that there's a shitload of soldiers out there going through exactly what you described and worse, know one would give a shit, and there'd be more and more and more guys like you made by the war every fucking day because nothing would change.

Every war does that to way too many soldiers but not every war does it equally bad. Vietnam did it bad, this one does it bad, and they fucking knew it going in. They've known it since Vietnam (they've known since the Civil War but after Vietnam they couldn't afford to ignore it any longer) and they've tried to made improvements, like the anti-suicide talks Wallonochia mentioned above, but most of their improvements don't work. So when you KNOW that war fucks up the ones who fight in it you better have a really fucking good reason to send them there. And they didn't. They didn't. And not only that, they also fucked up and it didn't work out as planned and now they're having soldiers go through hell for months and years on end and then they act surprised because guys come home fucked up.

So what do you want us to do? Say "Shit man, that's too bad" and turn around and shut up?

*snip*

I was pretty lucky, my jitterniness and anxiety went away within about six months of getting home back in '04.

What makes you think we don't get it? Have I lived through it? No, I only know about everything you just described from accounts of people like you. Does that mean I don't get it? No.

Since you have zero experience with it you don't get it. Simple as that. You may think that you understand, but you really have no conception of what I, or any of my men, went through. When you state that you get it, It seems patronizing. I don't bear you any ill will and I appreciate that your trying to understand.

So what do you want us to do if not look at the people who did this to the soldiers, who are responsible for cutting the funding from the VA so you're put on a six months waiting list instead of getting therapy and medication, who are responsible for sending guys off into a war that never should have been fought in the first place when they KNOW that what you described is what it will do to the men and women who fight in it? The people who will send guys like you back for a second and third tour to the place that broke them, because they're running out of men?

Pointing fingers and assigning blame is not going to change the fact that suicide rates are at an all time high.(for the Army, Marine numbers are MUCH lower, due to the more intensive training and sense of brotherhood) The people and officials that started this war knew, as do I, that it was needed for a more stable world order. If Saddam had continued his tyrannical rule, the middle east would have exploded in an all out holy war. No war is as terrible as one based on religion. 9/11 was as good as an excuse as any to help foster a better, and more unified world stage. We are giving the people of the middle east a chance at a freedom that they have never seen. Since you were not there you never saw how bad it was when we first went in(I did four tours) and how amazing, and hopeful the people are now that they feel that they can choose their own destiny. I may not enjoy the aftermath of my own personal problems, but I know that what we accomplished over there makes me very proud. Especially when the thousands of Iraqis that I met thanked me profusely for saving their lives .


Do you want us to not talk about it at all? Because we're not living it? Then nobody would even fucking know about it besides immediate family of soldiers, no one would be writing any articles about it, no one would know that there's a shitload of soldiers out there going through exactly what you described and worse, know one would give a shit, and there'd be more and more and more guys like you made by the war every fucking day because nothing would change.

Every war does that to way too many soldiers but not every war does it equally bad. Vietnam did it bad, this one does it bad, and they fucking knew it going in. They've known it since Vietnam (they've known since the Civil War but after Vietnam they couldn't afford to ignore it any longer) and they've tried to made improvements, like the anti-suicide talks Wallonochia mentioned above, but most of their improvements don't work. So when you KNOW that war fucks up the ones who fight in it you better have a really fucking good reason to send them there. And they didn't. They didn't. And not only that, they also fucked up and it didn't work out as planned and now they're having soldiers go through hell for months and years on end and then they act surprised because guys come home fucked up.

So what do you want us to do? Say "Shit man, that's too bad" and turn around and shut up?

The VA does not have a budget that is allocated every year by congress. Every year the VA has to ask for the monies to operate. Since they don't have a set budget, they have to make due with what they get, which is always a few billion less than they need to even offer basic services to returning service members. You can change that by taking an active stance at your local VA. Volunteer your time, be proactive with your government officials, stand up and be heard, and be there for us. We don't need a political diatribe, we just need people to try to understand, and be there when we feel like all is lost.

Just because you believe it was a bad idea to go to war does not mean that I do. I believe in what we have, and are accomplishing in the middle east. As I said above, the pure joy of the people that we helped was more than worth it. Yeah, so I am fucked up, it was a small price to pay for the knowledge that we changed the way that people see Americans. The large majority of people I met and talked with no longer view us as "infidels" that need to be scrubbed from the earth. They see that we are just ordinary folks like them, trying to help them have a better, more free life. That is what makes it worth it. Yes, there are those that will never believe that what we are doing is right, or just, but that is their right. You will never convince everyone, but you can help them to understand that their viewpoint is not the only one, and that understanding each others view point is the start of real freedom. I personally think we did an outstanding job of that.

Pointing fingers and assigning blame is not going to change the fact that suicide rates are at an all time high.(for the Army, Marine numbers are MUCH lower, due to the more intensive training and sense of brotherhood) .

Wait, so the Air Force and Navy have the higher rates? What the fuck? All they do is sit on the FOB with their thumbs up their asses and bitch about their A/C not working, or fucking Burger King running out of fries. The most they risk is loss of sleep because a mortar might just land near their tent/trailer, and then they go run and hide. None of those fuckers have ever actually left the wire or gotten shot at, so what the hell are they so frigging depressed about?

More troop rotations pls. And not "of troops". Do it properly and swap whole units in and out.

More troop rotations pls. And not "of troops". Do it properly and swap whole units in and out.

that's uuuuh, more or less what they're already doing...

It doesn't matter, I still see the ghost of W's chimp face smirking about it.

The people and officials that started this war knew, as do I, that it was needed for a more stable world order. If Saddam had continued his tyrannical rule, the middle east would have exploded in an all out holy war. No war is as terrible as one based on religion. 9/11 was as good as an excuse as any to help foster a better, and more unified world stage.

Translation: Please give me more trauma and increased suicide rates for farcical reasons of men wanting to rule the world. I still love spreading injustice and war mongering. You can throw us out on our ears once you're done wringing any last use you can out of me and my comrades.

Translation: Please give me more trauma and increased suicide rates for farcical reasons of men wanting to rule the world. I still love spreading injustice and war mongering.

That's a bit uncalled for. Just because someone still agrees with the war does not either make them a war monger or make them subject to trolling.

That's a bit uncalled for. Just because someone still agrees with the war does not either make them a war monger or make them subject to trolling.

Look at the justifications and excuses used. Combine this with the actions taken, the actions advocated, and the end results. Notice that they are still advocated. That tells plenty.

Translation: Please give me more trauma and increased suicide rates for farcical reasons of men wanting to rule the world. I still love spreading injustice and war mongering. You can throw us out on our ears once you're done wringing any last use you can out of me and my comrades.

I already stated that I am proud of the job I and my Marines have and are doing. If they asked me to go back I would in a second. In fact, I volunteered for my 3rd and 4th tour. If I had not been wounded I would have went back a 5th time. If you think that that is an injustice or warmongering, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. It is your opinion and you are always free to express it. Men, as you put it, already rule the world, so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. They didn't throw me out, I retired with full pay and benefits.

I already stated that I am proud of the job I and my Marines have and are doing. If they asked me to go back I would in a second. In fact, I volunteered for my 3rd and 4th tour. If I had not been wounded I would have went back a 5th time. If you think that that is an injustice or warmongering, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. It is your opinion and you are always free to express it. Men, as you put it, already rule the world, so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. They didn't throw me out, I retired with full pay and benefits.

I think you're a liar. Or maybe you're not.

Btw, I'm the grand emperor of Aldebaran.

To the OP, I understand this is very sad and there are many reasons why they may be killing themselves, but I GUARANTEE you its not because they don't have body armor. Your logic as to them killing themselves because they are not protected enough is embarrassing. I also do not think they would kill themselves because they miss their family. I'm sure they would want to live so they could see them again.


You fail to realize context. Its okay noob. I will spare you this once. Basically, the lack of proper equipment is one of those things that increases stress, paranoia, etc. It adds to the pressure of the job and makes it easier for them to have mental problems. Wouldn't you feel a bit paranoid if you knew an enemy was hiding around you and you didn't have the proper equipment to stay alive? That feeds into any other mental problems going on, ie depression, and boom. Everything adds up.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with tour of duties, but during WWII, the GI's were in it for the duration. Which meant that once they were shipped out to fight, they would not come back until it was over. Sure, they had their R&R and time in the back lines, but they were not to come home unless they were wounded too bad or killed.

The other thing was that the units rotated back and forth together. This was also the standard during Korea, WWI and every war the US fought until Viet-Nam.

Now there was a cluster. In WWII and Korea, the troops just did not come back home when it was over. They were relieved by other units and they moved to the rear for a few months. Then they were moved further back to aclimatize them to not being in combat.

My father was in the middle of a firefight in 'Nam, and was pulled out and back home within 24 hours. Not having the time to wind down was real fun to watch at home. Getting up in the middle of the night for a glass of water or to go to the bathroom and aack, there he was waiting!!!

As for the medical care for the wounded, I say shame on the Generals and our no balls congress. Remember about 2-3 years ago all the reports about the sorry state of Walter Reed Army Hospital? Of course, you did not know that all members of congress get their medical care free of charge at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, and they have better resources than Walter Reed.

And as usual, congress made all the noise and grandstanding of how they were going to make sure that the wounded troops would get the proper care and it fell on the wayside. Our so called elected traitors care as much for our military as they do for the citizens.

And as usual, congress made all the noise and grandstanding of how they were going to make sure that the wounded troops would get the proper care and it fell on the wayside. Our so called elected traitors care as much for our military as they do for the citizens.

In any political branch, soldiers are bullets. Useful, but once expended, not to be bothered with. They are somebody else's problem now. Same with the people who yell "support the troops" and then scream about being forced to pay for their medicare. Heck, even soldiers have this same view, that is, until they get disabled and have to live with being thrown out on the street.

In any political branch, soldiers are bullets. Useful, but once expended, not to be bothered with. They are somebody else's problem now. Same with the people who yell "support the troops" and then scream about being forced to pay for their medicare. Heck, even soldiers have this same view, that is, until they get disabled and have to live with being thrown out on the street.

I guess this is best described by paraphrasing Rudyard Kipling; The War Is Over, Peace Is At Hand, Soldiers And Dogs Keep Off The Grass

Saddam Hussein starting a holy war would be like Stalin starting a holy war. Kind of hard.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/05/army.suicides/index.html



This is a sad story, but this is even more sad:


"This is terrifying," an Army official said. "We do not know what is going on."

How about the fact that you are keeping people past their tour limits? Or how about not providing them with adequate armor and weaponry? How about your health care for them being terrible? How about the conditions you keep them in year after year with no end in sight? I can think of a bunch of reasons why so many soldiers are committing suicide, and all of them are rooted in the leadership both of the past 8 years and present. These soldiers sign up to give their lives to protect American interests, and walk all over them. How are they supposed to react?

Also, on a side note :
The anti-depressants prescribed to soldiers can have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Those side effects reportedly are more common in people 18 to 24

Why do side effects fail?

As I believe you stated, they know full well what is going on. They are ignoring the problems they cause those brave individuals that serve their respective country, in the name of a world-image that "Our soldiers are perfect and don't need medical help". I think that if they want these young men and women to fight their wars, they should help them once they have done so in whatever way they need.