NationStates Jolt Archive


What a lying scumbag.

No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:19
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7870896.stm
No torture pressure' - Miliband

David Miliband said the UK government would not authorise torture

David Miliband has disputed claims by two judges that the US threatened to stop sharing intelligence with the UK over an alleged torture case.

In a ruling, the judges said the US had forced the UK to suppress information about Binyam Mohamed, a former UK resident who claims he was tortured.

But the foreign secretary said there had been "no threat" from the US.

Mr Miliband said confidentiality was key to intelligence sharing, a view later backed by the White House.

In a statement, the White House said it "thanked the UK government for its continued commitment to protect sensitive national security information".

It added that this would "preserve the long-standing intelligence sharing relationship that enables both countries to protect their citizens".

A spokesman at the US Embassy in London added that it did not "threaten allies".

Opposition MPs have said ministers must urgently address claims the UK was "complicit" in the torture of Binyam Mohamed, who has been held at Guantanamo Bay for four years.

"We share our secrets with other countries and they share their secrets with us"
David Miliband


Mr Mohamed, 30, alleges he was tortured by US agents in Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan between 2002 and 2004 and that UK agencies were complicit in the practice.

In a ruling published on Wednesday, Lord Justice Thomas and Mr Justice Lloyd Jones said the attorney general would be investigating the issues of "torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" against Mr Mohamed.

The judges said they wanted the full details of the alleged torture to be published in the interests of safeguarding the rule of law, free speech and democratic accountability.

The details, believed to amount to just seven paragraphs, relate to the circumstances of Mr Mohamed's detention and his treatment while he was being held.

But they said they had been persuaded it was not in the public interest to do this due to the potential impact on UK national security of US stopping intelligence sharing.

By doing so, the US government could "inflict on the citizens of the UK a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains", they said.

Tory MP David Davis, who first raised the matter in the House of Commons, said the UK had been threatened with having security co-operation withdrawn if the information was published.

'Sharing secrets'

But Mr Miliband said there was no question of this happening.

"There has been no threat from the US to break off intelligence co-operation," he said.
US President Barack Obama has vowed to close the Guantanamo detention camp

He added: "Intelligence co-operation depends on confidentiality. We share our secrets with other countries and they share their secrets with us."

"It is US information and it is for the US to decide when to publish their information," Mr Miliband added.

The foreign secretary said the UK had never "condoned the use of torture".

Despite its stated desire to close Guantanamo within a year, the foreign secretary said there was "no evidence" that the Obama administration would take a different line on the publication of such information than the Bush administration.

However, the US government stressed that it investigated all allegations of torture including Mr Mohamed's case.

'Serious questions'

The Conservatives said the ruling raised "serious questions" and urged ministers to make a statement on the issue on Thursday.

"No British government should participate in or condone torture under any circumstances," said shadow foreign secretary William Hague.

"We hope that the new US administration will look again at this decision, particularly since the judge concerned that there were no security reasons for the material not to be made public."

Mr Davis said UK ministers should be asking whether it was "appropriate" for one democracy to threaten another with such a serious sanction as was being alleged.

"Frankly it is none of their business what our courts do," he said.

The BBC's Jonathan Beale in Washington said a former Bush administration official who dealt with Guantanamo Bay confirmed that US intelligence agencies did tell the UK that they opposed the release of certain US intelligence without their consent.

Civil liberties campaigners described the judges' remarks on the case as "astounding".

"What we have in Guantanamo is a legal black hole"
Moazzam Begg, former detainee

Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said the Bush administration had tried "to bully" the British courts and President Obama must make it clear he would not do the same.

The Lib Dems said the UK government had "just rolled over" in the face of US demands.

"There is no other terms for what the US intelligence services are doing than blackmail," said Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg.

"It is simply incredible that the US government would have halted intelligence co-operation with the UK if this information had been made public."

Moazzam Begg, a British former detainee of Guantanamo Bay, told the BBC he wanted to see an end to all forms of imprisonment without trial.

"How does any society determine whether anybody's detention is justified?" he said. "They do it through a court process, a legal process, that's recognised and transparent... but what we have in Guantanamo is a legal black hole."

Another British ex-detainee Omar Deghayes told the BBC he knew Mr Mohamed in Guantanamo and that he had spoken of being tortured.

He also said he was sure that British intelligence agents had questioned him and others there on numerous occasions.

"Everyone who was detained there from here will tell you that MI5 and MI6 came and interrogated them," he said.

Mr Deghayes said it was "shameful" that British judges were being "blackmailed" and it should be up to "the rule of law to decide whether somebody is guilty or not".


What a hideous, lying bastard. Shit like this should be exterminated. Miliband lies through every fucking side of his poncy face, and in my opinion should have his teeth torn from his face. At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get, but Labour pretends to be your friend before ass raping you. Your thoughts?
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:20
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7871226.stm
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:21
"Things.....can only get better...."
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 21:22
I can tell you're a real labour fan
Nodinia
05-02-2009, 21:23
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7870896.stm


What a hideous, lying bastard. Shit like this should be exterminated. Miliband lies through every fucking side of his poncy face, and in my opinion should have his teeth torn from his face. At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get, but Labour pretends to be your friend before ass raping you. Your thoughts?


Bang on the money. The unctous little shite should be run out of it, and all his new labour ilk with him. Lying, lying scum.
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 21:24
Wow - and I thought PETA got it bad!
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:25
I can tell you're a real labour fan

New Labour aren't Labour. They're far-right Tories in disguise.
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:27
New Labour aren't Labour. They're far-right Tories in disguise.

As a "far-right Tory"/ Libertarian/ UKIP supporter, I object to this allegation. Reflects very badly on us, who happen to be an honest cabal of bastards generally.:tongue:
Heinleinites
05-02-2009, 21:28
A politician lied? No! Stop the presses! I'm far more surprised that people continue to be shocked that politicians lie than I am that they do so.
Hydesland
05-02-2009, 21:28
What a hideous, lying bastard. Shit like this should be exterminated. Miliband lies through every fucking side of his poncy face, and in my opinion should have his teeth torn from his face. At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get, but Labour pretends to be your friend before ass raping you. Your thoughts?

This sounds like a somewhat trendy, slightly sheepish hatred.
Rambhutan
05-02-2009, 21:28
I do hope that Tony Blair has made everyone realise that a smug lying bastard does not make a good Prime Minister
Hawhatman
05-02-2009, 21:29
Bang on the money. The unctous little shite should be run out of it, and all his new labour ilk with him. Lying, lying scum.
Bring back King Arthur!Scargill that is :p
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:30
As a "far-right Tory"/ Libertarian/ UKIP supporter, I object to this allegation. Reflects very badly on us, who happen to be an honest cabal of bastards generally.:tongue:

At least UKIP etc don't pretend to be left wing etc.
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:30
Bring back King Arthur!Scargill that is :p

That'd be a laugh. Northern socialist bastard.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:31
This sounds like a somewhat trendy, slightly sheepish hatred.

Not really. If a lot of people hate Miliband and New Labour, it's for good reason.
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 21:31
I do hope that Tony Blair has made everyone realise that a smug lying bastard does not make a good Prime Minister

I thought that was the one enduring qualification needed, since the post was created!
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:32
At least UKIP etc don't pretend to be left wing etc.

Nope. Eurosceptic, grammar school loving, tax cutting, privatising doctrinaires.
Nodinia
05-02-2009, 21:32
The actuall letters exchanged....

link (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/miliband+reassures+over+torture+case+but+when+is+a+threat+a+threat++/2924357)
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:32
I do hope that Tony Blair has made everyone realise that a smug lying bastard does not make a good Prime Minister

Clearly it hasn't, have you seen how far ahead Cameron is in the polls?
greed and death
05-02-2009, 21:33
send him to gitmo water board him until he admits he was never tortured
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 21:33
At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get

Yep, exactly the same thing, but with less social conscience.
Kamsaki-Myu
05-02-2009, 21:33
Not really. If a lot of people hate Miliband and New Labour, it's for good reason.
Everyone has a reason. That in itself is a good reason. But not everyone's reasons are good.
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:33
Clearly it hasn't, have you seen how far ahead Cameron is in the polls?

Coming from a genuine Tory, I really do abhor Cameron. Self-satisfied dough-faced git; I want William Hague.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:34
send him to gitmo water board him until he admits he was never tortured

Lol. I'm gonna sig that.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:35
Yep, exactly the same thing, but with less social conscience.

The same thing, but at least they tell you that's what you're gonna get. I'd rather have a bunch of slightly honest bastardous shites than completely dishonest bastardous shites.
Kamsaki-Myu
05-02-2009, 21:35
Yep, exactly the same thing, but with less social conscience.
Less social condescension. You can't let less social conscience than Gordon Brown's.
Collectivity
05-02-2009, 21:37
Blair and his cronies consistently lied their arses off about everything connected with Iraq - as did Australi's John Howard and America's George W. And now they're gone. Good riddance!
And New Labour was shite! But the British public kept voting for it, so its policies must have been what the electorate wanted. (The same way people think they need to eat Big Macs)
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:41
And New Labour was shite!
Still is.

But the British public kept voting for it

Only because the only thing that could possibly've been worse were the Tories, and now I think they might actually be slightly better.
Rambhutan
05-02-2009, 21:41
I thought that was the one enduring qualification needed, since the post was created!

All politicians are liars, but they should be lying to the Chinese, and the US, and the Russians - not to the voters
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:42
Still is.



Only because the only thing that could possibly've been worse were the Tories, and now I think they might actually be slightly better.

Indeed we would have been.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:43
All politicians are liars, but they should be lying to the Chinese, and the US, and the Russians - not to the voters

Especially when they've actually been proven wrong.
Hotwife
05-02-2009, 21:43
All politicians are liars, but they should be lying to the Chinese, and the US, and the Russians - not to the voters

The problem is, that strategy doesn't get you re-elected.

The purpose of a politician is to get re-elected no matter what the cost, and to keep their party in power, no matter how stupid.
Kamsaki-Myu
05-02-2009, 21:50
Indeed we would have been.
Better than Brown, certainly. Blair, I still think is too close to call.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:50
Better than Brown, certainly. Blair, I still think is too close to call.

Blair would've handled the current situation worse than Brown, imo.
The blessed Chris
05-02-2009, 21:51
Better than Brown, certainly. Blair, I still think is too close to call.

Subjectivity abounds here. Tory that I am, I say yes, although there is no objective, empirical analysis with which to establish, or to affirm the contrary.
Tmutarakhan
05-02-2009, 21:56
Bring back King Arthur!
Wet nymphets handing out blades is not a rational system of governance.
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 21:57
The same thing, but at least they tell you that's what you're gonna get. I'd rather have a bunch of slightly honest bastardous shites than completely dishonest bastardous shites.

Seriously, how can you judge the relative honesty of two political parties? One has told more lies, but that's because they're in power and have to actually DO stuff, instead of just talking about it. You can't be found out for lying when you have nothing to lie about! Oppositions always have it easy in that respect.

Power corrupts, as they say.
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 21:59
Wet nymphets handing out blades is not a rational system of governance.

Wet nymphets handing out blades is always a rational system of governance.
Rambhutan
05-02-2009, 21:59
Wet nymphets handing out blades is not a rational system of governance.

I am willing to give it another go
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 22:00
Seriously, how can you judge the relative honesty of two political parties? One has told more lies, but that's because they're in power and have to actually DO stuff, instead of just talking about it. You can't be found out for lying when you have nothing to lie about! Oppositions always have it easy in that respect.

Power corrupts, as they say.

Fair point, but seeing as our last government was Tory, we pretty much know what we're in for.
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 22:01
Fair point, but seeing as our last government was Tory, we pretty much know what we're in for.

Go Lib Dems!

I haven't a clue what the fuck would happen if they got in power!
Longhaul
05-02-2009, 22:03
Go Lib Dems!

I haven't a clue what the fuck would happen if they got in power!

Nor do they. I don't see it ever becoming an issue, though .
Holy Cheese and Shoes
05-02-2009, 22:07
Nor do they. I don't see it ever becoming an issue, though .

Shame, it sounds like it would be fun. High taxes and legal drugs ftw!
No Names Left Damn It
05-02-2009, 22:09
Go Lib Dems!

I haven't a clue what the fuck would happen if they got in power!

Couldn't be any worse than the other 2. I might vote for them next election.
Chumblywumbly
05-02-2009, 22:25
"Things.....can only get better...."
Quite.

As a... UKIP supporter...
When did you leave the Tory horde?



And New Labour was shite! But the British public kept voting for it
Around 30% did.
Longhaul
05-02-2009, 22:27
Couldn't be any worse than the other 2. I might vote for them next election.
I often wonder just how much of the slowly increasing share of the vote that the Lib Dems have been getting over the last 10 years or so is being driven by the "can't be any worse than the others" mentality.

Next time around should be pretty interesting.

:)
Nodinia
05-02-2009, 23:06
I often wonder just how much of the slowly increasing share of the vote that the Lib Dems have been getting over the last 10 years or so is being driven by the "can't be any worse than the others" mentality.

Next time around should be pretty interesting.

:)


Not in a first past the post system. Odds are against it.
greed and death
05-02-2009, 23:13
Lol. I'm gonna sig that.

lol most people take me seriously when I say things like that, and go ona rant about water boarding is torture.
DaWoad
05-02-2009, 23:17
That'd be a laugh. Northern socialist bastard.

lol and the king shall return from across the water to take up the sword and banish you Rightists to Avalon! In soviet Camelot Ale quaffs you!
The Romulan Republic
05-02-2009, 23:23
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7870896.stm


What a hideous, lying bastard. Shit like this should be exterminated. Miliband lies through every fucking side of his poncy face, and in my opinion should have his teeth torn from his face. At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get, but Labour pretends to be your friend before ass raping you. Your thoughts?

"Should be exterminated," and "should have his teeth torn from his face" could be interperated as inciting violence against a government official.
Longhaul
05-02-2009, 23:27
Not in a first past the post system. Odds are against it.
Oh, don't get me wrong... I don't think the Lib Dems will win (ever), hence my "I don't see it ever becoming an issue" comment earlier in the thread.

I just think it'll be very interesting to see where the votes fall next time around, given the widespread 'pissed-offness' that I see regarding Labour, even amongst people who also reject the Conservatives as a sort of ingrained, knee-jerk thing. Of course, it probably just means we'll see an even lower turnout :p
The blessed Chris
06-02-2009, 02:30
When did you leave the Tory horde?

In stages. Cameron's stance on Grammar schools pissed me off royally, as has his refusal to explicitly and overtly oppose Labour's circumscription of civil liberties, his fiscal policy, his absence of any real policy on Europe, and the prevailing tone and composition of his shadow cabinet; too "one nation" public school, not sufficiently Thatcher/Major/Hague/Howard grammar school.
No Names Left Damn It
06-02-2009, 14:16
"Should be exterminated," and "should have his teeth torn from his face" could be interperated as inciting violence against a government official.

And?
The Romulan Republic
06-02-2009, 14:22
And?

So you're basically admitting to attempting to incite violence? In short, a crime?
No Names Left Damn It
06-02-2009, 14:30
So you're basically admitting to attempting to incite violence? In short, a crime?

Oh no, I'm not trying to get other people to go and do this to him, and I doubt anybody on NSG would be stupid enough to, I'm just saying it's what he deserves.
Straughn
07-02-2009, 05:02
Wow - and I thought PETA got it bad!
Nah. They're pretty good at fellating vegetables.
Dimesa
07-02-2009, 06:16
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7870896.stm


What a hideous, lying bastard. Shit like this should be exterminated. Miliband lies through every fucking side of his poncy face, and in my opinion should have his teeth torn from his face. At least with the Tories you know what you're gonna get, but Labour pretends to be your friend before ass raping you. Your thoughts?

You are so not gellin'
Galloism
07-02-2009, 06:17
You are so not gellin'

Want some melon?
Straughn
07-02-2009, 06:49
Want some melon?
Even though there's considerable redness & swellin'?
Lacadaemon
07-02-2009, 06:49
Nu-Labour was just a way for the redbrick crowd in the south east to make themselves feel a little better about themselves (because they'd never vote for real socialists, but on the other hand they don't want to think of themselves as middle class reactionaries either).

It was always going to be a toxic crypto fascist deal, because at heart, it appealed to the worst impulses in the swing voters (authoritarian, hypocritical &c).

But there is no point in thinking that Cameron and his front bench of anonymous vapid teenagers will be any different. Successive drubbings at the polls for the Tory party have remade it in the image of Nu-Labour. They are, in all important ways, completely identical in outlook and policy. Possibly Cameron would be slightly less grasping than Blair because he already has a fair bit of cash, and I would say that Tony is more intelligent, but these are minor points.

Brown is one of the stupidest men to hold the office of prime-minister. (He makes Dennis Healy look like an intellectual giant). But let's face it, he was always just going to be a place holder until Blu-Labour replaced Nu-Labour.

If the UK public want any real change, they'd all vote lib-dem. Not because I support their policies, but because they are such a minor political force compared to the other two they aren't as beholden to the corrupting influences the other two are. You'd probably get a more honest approach - at least for a while - than either of the other two gangs of criminals could offer.

I always think it is a bit of a shame that the old fashioned tories collapsed in the 60s. Yeah, they were hidebound snobs, that really believed in the class system and the queen and deserving poverty and all that, but the odd sex-scandal aside, they had a bit of decency about them.

I miss the proper socialists for the same reason.
Galloism
07-02-2009, 06:50
Even though there's considerable redness & swellin'?

You must not be gellin'
Straughn
07-02-2009, 06:59
You must not be gellin'Perhaps this here discourse is gonna earn a quellin' ...
Galloism
07-02-2009, 07:00
Perhaps this here discourse is gonna earn a quellin' ...

I feel like a wanted felon.