NationStates Jolt Archive

Following is an article describing how an NHS nurse offered to pray for one of her patients, the patient told her 'No, thank you' and the nurse finished her duties then left. Later the patient brought this up with another staff member and consequently, the nurse has been suspended without pay whilst an investigation is conducted.

A Christian nurse from Weston-super-Mare has been suspended for offering to pray for a patient's recovery.

Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her.

The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.

She was suspended, without pay, on 17 December and will find out the outcome of her disciplinary meeting next week.

Power of prayer

Mrs Petrie, who carries out home visits in North Somerset, said she had asked the patient if she would like a prayer said for her after she had put dressings on the woman's legs.

The patient, believed to be in her 70s, refused and Mrs Petrie insists that she left the matter alone.

The sick woman contacted the trust about the incident and Mrs Petrie was challenged by her superiors.

Mrs Petrie said: "The woman mentioned it to the sister who did her dressing the following day. She said that she wasn't offended but was concerned that someone else might be.

"I was spoken to by my manager. She said 'I've got a letter in one hand and an incident form in the other. You won't be able to work until we've investigated this incident'."

Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, said she became a Christian following the death of her mother.

"My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life.

"I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

A spokesman for North Somerset Primary Care Trust said: "Caroline Petrie has been suspended pending an investigation into the matter.

"She is a bank nurse and has been told we will not be using her in this capacity until the outcome of our investigation is known.

"We always take any concerns raised by our patients most seriously and conscientiously investigate any matter of this nature brought to our attention.

"We are always keen to be respectful of our patients' views and sensitivity as well as those of our staff."

Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7863699.stm

So then, would you or have you been offended by somebody wishing to pray for you as per their religious beliefs? Are you just fine with it or do you consider it an insult?

So then, would you or have you been offended by somebody wishing to pray for you as per their religious beliefs? Are you just fine with it or do you consider it an insult?

I think they ought keep their delusions to themselves.

I saw this story. Insane.

She asked if the patient would like her to pray for her. The patient said no thanks. The nurse leaves it there.

Why isn't that the end of the story?

I'd claim act of God insurence. /\ /\ this /\/\

So we have only one side of the story to make a decision on?

Following is an article describing how an NHS nurse offered to pray for one of her patients, the patient told her 'No, thank you' and the nurse finished her duties then left. Later the patient brought this up with another staff member and consequently, the nurse has been suspended without pay whilst an investigation is conducted.


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7863699.stm

So then, would you or have you been offended by somebody wishing to pray for you as per their religious beliefs? Are you just fine with it or do you consider it an insult?

Hmm... not sure. I've been offered that before and found it rather offensive.
In that case, it might depend on the context. If the nurse and patient had been chatting, and prayer had been mentioned in the conversation, and the nurse subsequently offered it, I don't think I would have been offended.
If that patient had been lying there minding his own business and the nurse simply walked up and offered prayer, I would have been.

If one believes in that kind of thing, then it could be considered an appropriate gesture by the person who is receiving it. If however the person doesn't, as it is with me, I would say that the person is entitled to feel insulted, especially if the person didn't comply with your wishes.

If the patient felt the nurse cross professional lines, then the patient's feelings should be taken seriously. To ensure that there was no misconduct. Better than a quick investigation turn up nothing than for it to fester and become something worse.

She asked if the patient would like her to pray for her. The patient said no thanks. The nurse leaves it there.

Why isn't that the end of the story?

What if a patient sees a different nurse every day? Every day someone new is asking to pray for him or her? What if they have one nurse each shift asking to pray for them? Yes, it's fine if one person does it, but if everyone else does then it would start to get annoying.

I saw this story. Insane.

She asked if the patient would like her to pray for her. The patient said no thanks. The nurse leaves it there.

Why isn't that the end of the story?

I wonder what would have happened if the nurse offered to do a spell on her patient to help her get better. You think she'd be suspended? I suspect so.

I saw this story. Insane.

She asked if the patient would like her to pray for her. The patient said no thanks. The nurse leaves it there.

Why isn't that the end of the story?

It actually turns out that the nurse has a history of promoting her religion in the line of her work when visiting ill patients, she was on BBC Radio2 this afternoon and she said herself that in the past she had been told not to give out 'Faith Cards' to patients she was visiting.

So then, would you or have you been offended by somebody wishing to pray for you as per their religious beliefs? Are you just fine with it or do you consider it an insult?

If they offer it - fine.
If they do it after I said no - NOT fine. Just like I like to reserve the right to refuse other "medical" treatments.

Since the nurse according to the story only mentioned the option and did not do it when the patient said no, I would have no problem with it.

What if a patient sees a different nurse every day? Every day someone new is asking to pray for him or her? What if they have one nurse each shift asking to pray for them? Yes, it's fine if one person does it, but if everyone else does then it would start to get annoying.

Cauliflower cheese every day in hospital is annoying too. Shall we suspend the cooks?

I wonder what would have happened if the nurse offered to do a spell on her patient to help her get better. You think she'd be suspended? I suspect so.

Why? Are we really so thin skinned?

It actually turns out that the nurse has a history of promoting her religion in the line of her work when visiting ill patients, she was on BBC Radio2 this afternoon and she said herself that in the past she had been told not to give out 'Faith Cards' to patients she was visiting.

Someone like that is bound to be annoying... :(

while I see both sides of the issue, the thing is, in the end, it's her job to be a caretaker, not a priest. It did cross a line

It actually turns out that the nurse has a history of promoting her religion in the line of her work when visiting ill patients, she was on BBC Radio2 this afternoon and she said herself that in the past she had been told not to give out 'Faith Cards' to patients she was visiting.

Ah. Sorta like a doctor saying "would you be interested in this alternative cure X I am developing?"
While as a patient I would not mind, I can imagine the hospital would.

If i was the nurse i'd pray for god to kill the patient.

Patient says they didn't take it any further, so it's wrong to blame them out of hand.

I don't care what religion any medical worker is. Though I would not like to be prayed for by a Christian, I wouldn't want to see someone dragged over the coals for it. Just an informal warning not to bring up religion would be sufficient, IMHO, provided she did as she said, mentioning once and leaving it.

It is not within the remit of the NHS to offer religious counsel (though NHS will contact a representative of your religion and get [b]them[/] to come to you, if you request it), nor it is it within it's remit to engage in religious persecution of it's staff. Remind them that the NHS doesn't "do religion" then back off.

Why? Are we really so thin skinned?

Yep. People need to defend the size of their god's dick. *nod*

I wonder what would have happened if the nurse offered to do a spell on her patient to help her get better. You think she'd be suspended? I suspect so.

Exactly!!

I would also have loved to see the old ladies face if she had said 'Yes please' and the nurse had got a prayer mat out and asked which direction Mecca was

Mind you, I bet the health service would have thought twice about suspending the nurse in that case

Yep. People need to defend the size of their god's dick. *nod*

Well, that statement certainly raises a number of interesting theological questions... :p

Exactly!!

So we have to skip straight to suspensions? That's the way to do things?

By all means, politely ask her to stop it. Make her spend a night in the morgue or something if she doesn't. But suspend her? Crazy.

Well, that statement certainly raises a number of interesting theological questions... :p



So we have to skip straight to suspensions? That's the way to do things?

By all means, politely ask her to stop it. Make her spend a night in the morgue or something if she doesn't. But suspend her? Crazy.

Well not really, they're suspending her whilst a formal investigation is carried out so that they can make a more informed decision - not exactly crazy dude. In most circumstances, suspension is the best thing to do if you're investigating somebody about something.

Well, that statement certainly raises a number of interesting theological questions... :p

Indeed it does.

Afterall, if one was going to pray for a patient, why did she feel the need to even mention it to that patient? Why for no other reason than to unzip God's fly and present God's dick to that poor old lady.

A night in the morgue? and what do you think a zealous person would do there surrounded by dead bodies eh?
I'l bet she'd be a praying and a chanting for hours on end for the dead souls, good grief bargains galore preserve us, if anything she doesn't need to be near dead people.

I'm confused as to how this became some sort of issue, have we really come to the point where a big public fuss is made over one person trying to offer prayers for others?

So we have to skip straight to suspensions? That's the way to do things?
An employee has had her behaviour questioned by a member of the public. It seems reasonable, as a general rule, to suspend her during investigation of said behaviour, lest she repeat behaviour the investigation would find objectionable.

Suspended without pay, however, does seem a bit harsh.

Indeed it does.

Afterall, if one was going to pray for a patient, why did she feel the need to even mention it to that patient? Why for no other reason than to unzip God's fly and present God's dick to that poor old lady.

um, what makes you think God is a male?

Well not really, they're suspending her whilst a formal investigation is carried out so that they can make a more informed decision - not exactly crazy dude. In most circumstances, suspension is the best thing to do if you're investigating somebody about something.

Given that they've already been told what happened, and the nurse has admitted it, what do you expect this 'investigation' to uncover? And why could they not 'investigate' this unspeakable monstrosity while letting her work?

She's accused of saying the wrong thing, not fiddling with the patients. 'Knock it off' really would have sufficed.

I saw this story. Insane.

She asked if the patient would like her to pray for her. The patient said no thanks. The nurse leaves it there.

Why isn't that the end of the story?

If the nurse had been a massage therapist, and asked if the woman wanted a massage, would the patient have had the same response? I sincerely doubt it.

If the nurse had been an acupuncturist, and offered the woman acupuncture, would the patient have had the same response? Again, I doubt it.

The issue is that the patient is prejudicial and biased. If the nurse offered to do something for her - open the windows, fluff her pillow, tap dance - and the patient said no, and the nurse left it alone, no big.

But as soon as the patient felt "offended" (if she wasn't, she either would have talked to the nurse directly, or she wouldn't have said anything, would she???) she got on the horn and called Admin.

C'mon lady - it's not like she beat you with a stick!!! (and btw - I have had a lot of people ask me if they could pray for me. the only time I get annoyed is when I say no and they ask me "why", as if I owe some accounting to them. And btw - I am a Christian. If she really wasn't offended, she wouldn't have thought twice about the incident.)

the woman wasnt even offended. she just mentioned it to the next nurse so that, perhaps, the original nurse's supervisor would have a little talk to her about not doing it again. she probably didnt want the nurse to be suspended over something so trivial.

are y'all so organized that that nurse cant tell the supervisor to shove it, walk down to the next place that desperately needs nurses and start working the same day?

A night in the morgue? and what do you think a zealous person would do there surrounded by dead bodies eh?
I'l bet she'd be a praying and a chanting for hours on end for the dead souls, good grief bargains galore preserve us, if anything she doesn't need to be near dead people.

I'm confused as to how this became some sort of issue, have we really come to the point where a big public fuss is made over one person trying to offer prayers for others?

Generally yep ;] I fund the NHS and by proxy I fund her... therefore she shouldn't go around offending the people she cares for. That being said she did sound like an awfully nice lady on the radio programme - although she also said that sometimes she would pray for patients regardless of their wishes.

A pity the radio host didn't question and push her on that.

Exactly!!

I would also have loved to see the old ladies face if she had said 'Yes please' and the nurse had got a prayer mat out and asked which direction Mecca was

Mind you, I bet the health service would have thought twice about suspending the nurse in that case

Indeed!!!

Indeed it does.

Afterall, if one was going to pray for a patient, why did she feel the need to even mention it to that patient? Why for no other reason than to unzip God's fly and present God's dick to that poor old lady.

Offering to pray isn't dick waving. If you are of faith, and you believe that God will answer prayer, then this is a gesture of kindness.

Saying it's 'unzipping God's pants' is like saying giving money to charity is simply a way of showing off the size of your wallet.

Just out of curiousity is there some other report i'm missing which states the patients side of things?

um, what makes you think God is a male?

What makes you think he doesn't think God is a hermaphrodite?

I'm confused as to how this became some sort of issue, have we really come to the point where a big public fuss is made over one person trying to offer prayers for others?

I think the point is that there are people who are paid to do that - the clergy.

What next....my bank manager offering to pray my cheque clears on time? My travel agent offering a quick prayer my plane doesn't burst into flames on the runway:D

If the nurse had been a massage therapist, and asked if the woman wanted a massage, would the patient have had the same response? I sincerely doubt it.

If the nurse had been an acupuncturist, and offered the woman acupuncture, would the patient have had the same response? Again, I doubt it.

The issue is that the patient is prejudicial and biased.
Biased because she felt other people may be offended that an employee of a secular institution was promoting her religious views?

However innocuous they may be, one's religious convictions should not be broadcasted when one is acting as part of a non-religious organisation.

um, what makes you think God is a male?

God is a hermaphrodite.

Given that they've already been told what happened, and the nurse has admitted it, what do you expect this 'investigation' to uncover? And why could they not 'investigate' this unspeakable monstrosity while letting her work?

She's accused of saying the wrong thing, not fiddling with the patients. 'Knock it off' really would have sufficed.

The PCT already told her to knock it off as such but she is persistent and whilst I have no problem her believing whatever she wishes to believe - trying to spread her belief through a public job is very questionable to me... hence an investigation and suspension.

Offering to pray isn't dick waving. If you are of faith, and you believe that God will answer prayer, then this is a gesture of kindness.

Saying it's 'unzipping God's pants' is like saying giving money to charity is simply a way of showing off the size of your wallet.

Praying for someone isn't showing off. Offering to pray for someone is. Giving to charity isn't showing off. Showing them your account balance is.

Praying for someone isn't showing off. Offering to pray for someone is.

If prayer is so offensive to people of no faith, wouldn't doing it without consent be a greater insult?

Suspended without pay, however, does seem a bit harsh.

That's more to do with the fact the nurse works as a bank nurse, and so is hired on a shift by shift basis. The Trust isn't hiring them while they are investigating (reasonably enough), so no hours worked = no pay. Can't see why they couldn't work somewhere else though.

Seems a tad of an overreaction, but on the other hand the trust has to be seen to do everything officially and above board. There may be strict rules about how you are allowed to interact with patients that govern faith-based conversations.

If prayer is so offensive to people of no faith, wouldn't doing it without consent be a greater insult?

How would they know?

How would they know?

So it's ok to do things to people that you know they find offensive, as long as it's behind their back?

Biased because she felt other people may be offended that an employee of a secular institution was promoting her religious views?

However innocuous they may be, one's religious convictions should not be broadcasted when one is acting as part of a non-religious organisation.

I actually agree w/ you; however--- ooooh, here's one for the lawyers!!! -- does the hospital have on record a policy forbidding her actions?????

Cuz technically, if they don't... didn't they interfere w/ her first amendment rights towards both freedom of speech and freedom to practice her religion????

Cuz technically, if they don't... didn't they interfere w/ her first amendment rights towards both freedom of speech and freedom to practice her religion????

Given that this is the UK, I can guarantee you that they didn't. :p

So it's ok to do things to people that you know they find offensive, as long as it's behind their back?

No. It's ok to ask your god to help someone, but it's presumptuous to asks someone if they'd like your god to help them.

I actually agree w/ you; however--- ooooh, here's one for the lawyers!!! -- does the hospital have on record a policy forbidding her actions?????

Cuz technically, if they don't... didn't they interfere w/ her first amendment rights towards both freedom of speech and freedom to practice her religion????

We don't have the US First Amendment ;P also - I'm pretty sure there's a Midwifery Code of Conduct they are meant to abide by that states something along the lines of employees must not use their professional capacity to promote their own personal religion.

I actually agree w/ you; however--- ooooh, here's one for the lawyers!!! -- does the hospital have on record a policy forbidding her actions?????

Cuz technically, if they don't... didn't they interfere w/ her first amendment rights towards both freedom of speech and freedom to practice her religion????
UK, not the US.

Moreover, I fail to see how preventing a person from evangelising during their work for a secular organisation is breaching some freedom of religion/speech.

What makes you think he doesn't think God is a hermaphrodite?
I don't know, i mean if God is invisible it's kind of hard to tell what gender he/she/it is.
I think the point is that there are people who are paid to do that - the clergy.

What next....my bank manager offering to pray my cheque clears on time? My travel agent offering a quick prayer my plane doesn't burst into flames on the runway:D
Oh so the priests are getting jealous about a nurse praying for her patients. I figure prayer is more about helping the person doing the praying than who you're praying too, like a moral boost thing.
God is a hermaphrodite.
You just made that up.
There is more in the bible to suggest that god is a female. There are several references to his "breasts" and "womb", but none to his penis.
hah see, God's more likely to be a woman than a man for all you haters out there!oneoneone
Generally yep ;] I fund the NHS and by proxy I fund her... therefore she shouldn't go around offending the people she cares for. That being said she did sound like an awfully nice lady on the radio programme - although she also said that sometimes she would pray for patients regardless of their wishes.

A pity the radio host didn't question and push her on that.
but she didn't actually offend the old lady she just offered something that she isn't paid to do, is that really a crime? I mean as long as it isn't harmful to the patient or worry them then what's the problem?

UK, not the US.
Ooops, I stand corrected. Somehow, I missed that detail. Thanks for pointing it out to me!


Moreover, I fail to see how preventing a person from evangelising during their work for a secular organisation is breaching some freedom of religion/speech.

hmmm.... never thought about it in those terms... interesting point.

Anyone that is seriously offended by the thought that someone cares about them enough to pray to their god is emotionally stunted. If someone praying for your health hurts your little feelings you an idiot.

It actually turns out that the nurse has a history of promoting her religion in the line of her work when visiting ill patients, she was on BBC Radio2 this afternoon and she said herself that in the past she had been told not to give out 'Faith Cards' to patients she was visiting.

Mystery solved. I was wondering why you'd need to ask someone if they wanted you to pray for them. Why couldn't you just go to your church or the chapel in the hospital, if it has one, and do your praying for the person there? It would have to be because you want the patient to either participate or thank you for it. Please. Let this Florence Nightingale of God do her praying on her own time. Any patient who wants someone to pray with can request a clergyman to come to them.

but she didn't actually offend the old lady she just offered something that she isn't paid to do, is that really a crime? I mean as long as it isn't harmful to the patient or worry them then what's the problem?

Well, to be honest I most likely would have been offended by her asking to pray for me - I wouldn't have been pedantic about it however and I personally do think it's a bit of an over-reaction. The principle of her being able to promote her religion in her capacity as nurse I find very unethical though as it's a public-funded service and a non-secular organisaiton.

She should have asked me if I were religious whether I would like someone of my faith contacted on my behalf and for them to arrange a visit. She should not have asked if she could pray for me, personally I find that offensive..

No. It's ok to ask your god to help someone, but it's presumptuous to asks someone if they'd like your god to help them.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that point. If the patient had been religious as well, then the knowledge that she was being prayed for would have been a great comfort in itself. I always found it to be so when people have said they are praying for me.

Indeed, the non-religious should understand that point more than anyone - if God doesn't exist then prayer does nothing, but at least you get the comfort of thinking that it helps.

Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that in these anti-religious days such an innocent question should cause such great offence, but it still does. Sad, really.

Anyone that is seriously offended by the thought that someone cares about them enough to pray to their god is emotionally stunted. If someone praying for your health hurts your little feelings you an idiot.

How's the Moon theory thingy coming along?
(:

Praying for someone isn't showing off. Offering to pray for someone is. Giving to charity isn't showing off. Showing them your account balance is.

excellent point. well said!!

Anyone that is seriously offended by the thought that someone cares about them enough to pray to their god is emotionally stunted. If someone praying for your health hurts your little feelings you an idiot.

What a lovely thought. That you think a mod is emotionally stunted and an idiot because they would not want someone to pray for them. There are others here who aren't mods who would also be offended by your statement.

Warned for trolling.

And for the record, I am an Atheist and I've told friends not to pray for me because I don't believe in that kind of thing.

She can get a job in Texas they are screaming for Nurses. Prayer or no prayer.

I really think it is an over reaction. There was no malice what so ever. She is offering to help her with in "non-religious way" nice thoughts. I really can't see the harm. If she offered to get her a ballon animal would she likewise have been offened? If she offered to write a song about her?

Ridculous.

Sign her up I say. New York would likely take her as well.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that point. If the patient had been religious as well, then the knowledge that she was being prayed for would have been a great comfort in itself. I always found it to be so when people have said they are praying for me.

good point. I wonder what would have happened if the nurse had asked if the patient was a Christian, or if she was "religious". would the patient have still be offended? or less so??

Just religious softies really, you ain't got real religion in the South try the north eh, see if you don't believe in God when you're stuck in a snowdrift in the Cairngorm mountains.
bunch of wussies getting antsy about who said what to whom i bet you're all sitting smug in your armchair swilling some nice tea, oh it's all different when you get down to it. If people want to pray for me i'm quite happy to let them, it does no harm to noone.
watch out the nurses don't try their evil God practises if they come for you, there's no hope for you. try saying you're an athiest in front of an angry mob, now that's real religion.

I wonder what would have happened if the nurse offered to do a spell on her patient to help her get better. You think she'd be suspended? I suspect so.
This.

Would I be offended if somebody offered to pray for me? Not necessarily. Would I be bothered if one of the medical professionals supervising my treatment offered to ask a magical being to heal me? A bit, yeah. At least enough to mention it to their supervisor. I wouldn't demand they be fired or anything, but it would be worth mentioning because I think that behavior is inappropriate and the nurse should be told as much.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that point. If the patient had been religious as well, then the knowledge that she was being prayed for would have been a great comfort in itself. I always found it to be so when people have said they are praying for me.

Indeed, the non-religious should understand that point more than anyone - if God doesn't exist then prayer does nothing, but at least you get the comfort of thinking that it helps.

Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that in these anti-religious days such an innocent question should cause such great offence, but it still does. Sad, really.

Well, if it helps, I agree with you that suspension is a bit over the top. But I suspect that many people that would defend a christian nurse in this case wouldn't be so quick to defend a wiccan nurse.

What a lovely thought. That you think a mod is emotionally stunted and an idiot because they would not want someone to pray for them. There are others here who aren't mods who would also be offended by your statement.

Warned for trolling.

And for the record, I am an Atheist and I've told friends not to pray for me because I don't believe in that kind of thing.

Regarding the warning, i didn't call anyone an idiot for not sharing my religious beliefs. I said that it is stupid to get upset by it at all. I'm going to pray for you. How does that affect you?

It shouldn't matter that you're a moderator. If i say something that is against the rules, i should be punished. Regardless of whether i say it to a moderator or a lowly regular user.

The thing is, would we find this acceptable in any other profession? "would you like me to pray for you before taking this test?" "would you like me to pray for you before I do your taxes?" "would you like me to pray for a safe journey before I drive you to the airport?"

If i say something that is against the rules, i should be punished. Regardless of whether i say it to a moderator or a lowly regular user.
Don't worry, you will be. You're right on track! :D

In fact Kryzo, give me a contant adress for your superior. I want to file a complaint against you.

In fact Kryzo, give me a contant adress for your superior. I want to file a complaint against you.

No you won't. It'd be in private conversation which would defeat the purpose of you complaining.

The thing is, would we find this acceptable in any other profession? "would you like me to pray for you before taking this test?" "would you like me to pray for you before I do your taxes?" "would you like me to pray for a safe journey before I drive you to the airport?"
If nothing else, I think the hospital probably doesn't want to get the reputation, "Our Nurses Will Pray For You!" Probably for much the same reason an airline wouldn't want to be known for having pilots who pray for a safe flight.

I mean, it kind of comes across as, "we're praying because Lord knows our actual skills aren't enough to assure us of success!" :P

No you won't. It'd be in private conversation which would defeat the purpose of you complaining.

win.

Just religious softies really, you ain't got real religion in the South try the north eh, see if you don't believe in God when you're stuck in a snowdrift in the Cairngorm mountains.
bunch of wussies getting antsy about who said what to whom i bet you're all sitting smug in your armchair swilling some nice tea, oh it's all different when you get down to it. If people want to pray for me i'm quite happy to let them, it does no harm to noone.
watch out the nurses don't try their evil God practises if they come for you, there's no hope for you. try saying you're an athiest in front of an angry mob, now that's real religion.

MOB ROOLZ!!1! Rawr!!! Real religionz!

If nothing else, I think the hospital probably doesn't want to get the reputation, "Our Nurses Will Pray For You!" Probably for much the same reason an airline wouldn't want to be known for having pilots who pray for a safe flight.

I mean, it kind of comes across as, "we're praying because Lord knows our actual skills aren't enough to assure us of success!" :P

quite. If my doctor asks if I want a prayer before an exam, I'm getting another doctor. Not because it bothers me that he's religious, I just don't want a doctor that feels he needs to be augmented.

I don't know how things are in the UK, but in US hospitals, nurses are generally too busy doing their jobs to spend time hovering over patients to pray for them or otherwise fuss about their feelings. Maybe the investigation is into how much time this nurse spends practicing her religion on the job as opposed to actually caring for patients medically.

In US hospitals, it is quite common for nurses to ask a patient if they would like a visit from a clergy-person of whatever religion/denomination, if the patient is very sick or in the hospital for an extended time. I believe it sometimes happens that patients will become attached to a nurse and ask that nurse to pray with them. I have never heard of any hospital being okay with nurses doing what the clergy are supposed to do -- offering prayer services -- as opposed to what they are being paid to do -- nursing.

Mystery solved. I was wondering why you'd need to ask someone if they wanted you to pray for them. Why couldn't you just go to your church or the chapel in the hospital, if it has one, and do your praying for the person there? It would have to be because you want the patient to either participate or thank you for it. Please. Let this Florence Nightingale of God do her praying on her own time. Any patient who wants someone to pray with can request a clergyman to come to them.
now that makes much better sense. to suspend her over one incident was stupid but if its a pattern of inappropriate behavior stricter steps needed to be taken.

quite. If my doctor asks if I want a prayer before an exam, I'm getting another doctor. Not because it bothers me that he's religious, I just don't want a doctor that feels he needs to be augmented.

If I had the choice of being the best doctor I could be or the best doctor I could be and have divine help as well I know which one I would choose.

The thing is, would we find this acceptable in any other profession? "would you like me to pray for you before I do your taxes?"

My answer to this would be, "No, I'd like you to pray for YOU before you do my taxes!!!":p

This.
Where have you been hiding?



In fact Kryzo, give me a contant adress for your superior. I want to file a complaint against you.
Lollerz!

The purpose of my complaint is to have my unfair warning overturned.
Take it to moderation, like everybody else.

I doubt Max Barry/Jolt care too much.




I don't know how things are in the UK, but in US hospitals, nurses are generally too busy doing their jobs to spend time hovering over patients to pray for them or otherwise fuss about their feelings.
I believe it was a home visit, which means more 'face-to-face' time with the patient.

In US hospitals, it is quite common for nurses to ask a patient if they would like a visit from a clergy-person of whatever religion/denomination... I have never heard of any hospital being okay with nurses doing what the clergy are supposed to do -- offering prayer services -- as opposed to what they are being paid to do -- nursing.
Hear, hear!

The purpose of my complaint is to have my unfair warning overturned.

COmpletely nonsensical. If the warning was unfair, then you have nothing to fear because you never actually engaged in the behavior you were warned about. Unless you intend to engage in that behavior in the future.

You know, this might sound off-topic, but it's actually a very similar situation. Like the nurse in question, you aren't complaining, you want to be seen complaining.

Where have you been hiding?

The bottomless pit of academia from which, I now believe, there is no return.

(Grad school, year 5, shoot me now.)

COmpletely nonsensical. If the warning was unfair, then you have nothing to fear because you never actually engaged in the behavior you were warned about. Unless you intend to engage in that behavior in the future.

You know, this might sound off-topic, but it's actually a very similar situation. Like the nurse in question, you aren't complaining, you want to be seen complaining.
Also, like the nurse in the story, he makes a habit of it, despite previous warnings. Interesting...

The bottomless pit of academia from which, I now believe, there is no return.

(Grad school, year 5, shoot me now.)

how's the thesis coming along?

The bottomless pit of academia from which, I now believe, there is no return.

(Grad school, year 5, shoot me now.)
Ooooh, makes me even more keen to fill in my postgrad applications...

With regard to pilots whatever gets back to the ground in one piece. Birds fly into planes all the time, air turbulence, icing wings etc. I would admit this would be uncommon but not unacceptable.

Taxes are "evil" so prayer would be helpful. A full exorcism might be in order in my case. In the worst case it would be to make sure all the i's are dotted and all the t's crossed.

I can't understand what is offensive about that. If nothing else it is positive energy directed in your direction.

COmpletely nonsensical. If the warning was unfair, then you have nothing to fear because you never actually engaged in the behavior you were warned about. Unless you intend to engage in that behavior in the future.

You know, this might sound off-topic, but it's actually a very similar situation. Like the nurse in question, you aren't complaining, you want to be seen complaining.

do you ever watch the Venture Bros? The episode "20 years to midnight?" Has a giant robot, the grand galactic inquisitor, who insists, in a great, booming voice, "IGNORE ME!"

Yeah, that sorta sounds like this.

If i get another unfair warning, i'll be banned. So i think i have every right to feel aggrieved. Prayer does nothing, so there really is no reason to be hurt at all by someone praying for you. It shows they care, so how could it possibly be a bad thing.

I'm going to pray to the Zeta's for all of you. If that bothers you, tough.

Zeta's???? who are they?

I can't understand what is offensive about that. If nothing else it is positive energy directed in your direction.

It may well be a lovely, well-meant gesture, but it's the fact that the woman is an employee of a secular organisation, and was acting in its capacity at the time.

Seems like her patient was worried some folks might have been offended, might of seen the NHS as promoting a particular religion.

COmpletely nonsensical. If the warning was unfair, then you have nothing to fear because you never actually engaged in the behavior you were warned about. Unless you intend to engage in that behavior in the future.

You know, this might sound off-topic, but it's actually a very similar situation. Like the nurse in question, you aren't complaining, you want to be seen complaining.
Get out of my head. I was just about to make this observation.

When people ask, "Why should it bother you if somebody wants to pray for you," I find that a very dishonest question. It bothers me because, as often as not, it's INTENDED to bother me. People offer to pray for me even after they know my personal beliefs. People offer to pray for me even after I express my opinion of prayer. Heck, this thread has examples of people who presume to tell me that there's something wrong with me if I politely decline their offer of prayer. It's pretty obvious that people like that are specifically trying to bother people like me, so why should it be any surprise that sometimes they succeed?

If i get another unfair warning, i'll be banned. So i think i have every right to feel aggrieved. Prayer does nothing, so there really is no reason to be hurt at all by someone praying for you. It shows they care, so how could it possibly be a bad thing.

I'm going to pray to the Zeta's for all of you. If that bothers you, tough.

Ask him to send me some tacos. :)

Zeta's???? who are they?

Welsh actress that married Michael Douglas. Must be some weird cult.

I can't understand what is offensive about that.

Mainly because it's not your job to pray for me, especially since I didn't ask you to.

See, I think it's the ultimite cop out. "you're in a bad situation so I will pray for you!" But if I express my wish that I'd rather you didn't, I get accused of being the bad person, because you're just trying to "wish me well" or some nonsense.

Here's a thought, if I'm in a bad situation, and you want to help, help. Pulling this "I will pray for you" shit is just a cop out, a subtle way of pushing your faith yet at the same time, avoiding the inconvenience of doing something actually HELPFUL.

how's the thesis coming along?
Hateful and malignant.

Two aims down, one to go. :P

Ask him to send me some tacos. :)

I concur. Space tacos rule.

Zeta's???? who are they?

We know them better as 'underpants gnomes'. *nod*

With regard to pilots whatever gets back to the ground in one piece. Birds fly into planes all the time, air turbulence, icing wings etc. I would admit this would be uncommon but not unacceptable.

Taxes are "evil" so prayer would be helpful. A full exorcism might be in order in my case. In the worst case it would be to make sure all the i's are dotted and all the t's crossed.

I can't understand what is offensive about that. If nothing else it is positive energy directed in your direction.
I suppose it never occurs to you that some people are more interested in receiving an accomplished task/service/job than "energy" from a stranger?

I go to an accountant to get my taxes prepped. That is what I pay him for. That is what I want to talk with him about. That is what I want to see him do.

I want to see a pilot fly the plane, not pray over it.

I want the nurse to monitor my life signs and dispense medications appropriately.

If I want prayers I will go to a clergyperson for that, and if I want "energy" sent my way, I'll get some new age type to wave a crystal over me for $15.

Forget religion for a minute, and apply this to anything that someone else thinks their customers might like. News flash: If it's not directly related to what I'm asking and paying for, then I don't want it from you. Stop making my (rhetorical) day be all about you (rhetorical). Stop showing off how considerate you are, and be considerate enough to do what I fucking ask of you. Stop using initiative which turns out to be nothing more than an excuse to do something other than your job. Stop anticipating my needs and, miracle!, "discovering" that they are just what you feel like giving me.

Just do the damned job and leave me alone otherwise.

They built the Moon in order to act as incubator with which to promote intelligent life on Earth.

DO NOT PRAY TO THEM ON MY BEHALF.

They obviously don't know what they are doing!!!!! If what we've got is the best they could do, I'd prefer I not be brought to their attention!! :p ;):D

The NHS isn't powerd by prayer, so she'd be expected to do nursely things too. Wishing you well is just a bonus.
Praying for someone is far more than wishing them well.

I concur. Space tacos rule.

I thought all of our space tacos were thrown into volcanoes and H-bombed?

Hateful and malignant.

Two aims down, one to go. :P

it would have been funnier if you said "beligerant and numerous"

I thought all of our space tacos were thrown into volcanoes and H-bombed?

:eek: Perish the thought!

Get out of my head. I was just about to make this observation.

I like it here. *moves in*

I like it here. *moves in*
Oh who am I kidding, it's probably for the best if you do move in. You'll fill it with pies. Vast improvement.

If NHS patients want access to a representative of their religion all they need to do is ask and they will be supplied with one, and rightly so. It is not too much to ask to allow patients the comfort and assurance of their faith should they have one. I would suspect that trained NHS staff know this, and I wonder therefore why an NHS staff member would consider the need to take on this role. In my opinion, it is simply out of line and unprofessional, no less than if someone asking for a priest in hospital got "have you considered that there is no god" in reply.

Beware. Pies and mud.

*sighs*

Somehow it didn't actually quote Bottle's post.

DO NOT PRAY TO THEM ON MY BEHALF.

They obviously don't know what they are doing!!!!! If what we've got is the best they could do, I'd prefer I not be brought to their attention!! :p ;):D
seconded!

i have enough problems without coming to the attention of the moon incubator aliens.

Oh who am I kidding, it's probably for the best if you do move in. You'll fill it with pies. Vast improvement.

sounds like we're going to have to have a house warming party!

seconded!

I have enough problems without coming to the attention of the moon incubator aliens.

lol!!

Maybe to a religious person. If you're not religious, then really it's just the same as having someone say "you're in my thoughts".
In one practical sense, you're right. But prayer comes with a lot of baggage, especially in a 'public' situation such as an NHS home-visit.

For example, say the nurse talks to patient a, and they are fine with them praying to the Christian God on their behalf. What if the nurse then visits person b, a Jew, who does wish to be prayed for, just not (obviously) in relation to the Christian God.

Ignoring the fact that the nurse is now acting like clergy, rather than a medic, she would either have to pray to a God she didn't believe in, making the whole exercise rather pointless, or refuse to pray for patient b; thus treating her patient's unequally.

It's simply not a workable set-up.

Oh who am I kidding, it's probably for the best if you do move in. You'll fill it with pies. Vast improvement.

far better than that biology crap.

No deity ever uses a cellphone. Why is that?

In one practical sense, you're right. But prayer comes with a lot of baggage, especially in a 'public' situation such as an NHS home-visit.

For example, say the nurse talks to patient a, and they are fine with them praying to the Christian God on their behalf. What if the nurse then visits person b, a Jew, who does wish to be prayed for, just not (obviously) in relation to the Christian God.

Ignoring the fact that the nurse is now acting like clergy, rather than a medic, she would either have to pray to a God she didn't believe in, making the whole exercise rather pointless, or refuse to pray for patient b; thus treating her patient's unequally.

It's simply not a workable set-up.

That is the one area that i would consider it a problem. For an atheist though, it shouldn't really be an issue.

No deity ever uses a cellphone. Why is that?

Yahweh actually kind of did. The arc of the covenent was a radio transmitter.

Yahweh actually kind of did. The arc of the covenent was a radio transmitter.

Actually, it was a microwave oven with bad shielding. *nod*

Well I don't care if V prays to the Zetas on my behalf as long as he doesn't let them try to do any math. I'm not very comfortable with their methods of rounding numbers.

And as for the OP's post... What the hell. The Nurse should be allowed to pray to whoever she damn well likes, Moloch, FSM or Jesus - for whatever reason. Who cares if anyone is offended. Religious freedom is a *right* not a privilege, as long as she isn't harming anyone or infringing upon other peoples rights she should be allowed to do what she pleases.

Actually, it was a microwave oven with bad shielding. *nod*

Why would you think that? The Torah is pretty clear on what it was used for.

Actually, it was a microwave oven with bad shielding. *nod*

which is really why the nazis wanted it so much. You know how hard it was to reheat braatwurst in 1944?

Mainly because it's not your job to pray for me, especially since I didn't ask you to.

In her/his case it would be called bedside manner. Offering someone in pain your support, well wishes, hope for a speedy recovery.


See, I think it's the ultimite cop out. "you're in a bad situation so I will pray for you!" But if I express my wish that I'd rather you didn't, I get accused of being the bad person, because you're just trying to "wish me well" or some nonsense.

Here's a thought, if I'm in a bad situation, and you want to help, help. Pulling this "I will pray for you" shit is just a cop out, a subtle way of pushing your faith yet at the same time, avoiding the inconvenience of doing something actually HELPFUL.

What if there is nothing else that can be done medically. What if he/she did all that he/she and the doctors could do at this time?




I suppose it never occurs to you that some people are more interested in receiving an accomplished task/service/job than "energy" from a stranger?

So refuse the offer but I don't see how it is offensive. Worse case they are well meaning wishes.


I go to an accountant to get my taxes prepped. That is what I pay him for. That is what I want to talk with him about. That is what I want to see him do.
Who said she/he wasn't doing her/his job. If he/she was offering to pray for while being neglectful that is another story
[/QUOTE]


I want to see a pilot fly the plane, not pray over it.

I want the nurse to monitor my life signs and dispense medications appropriately.


There is no reason to believe she/he wasn't doing that


If I want prayers I will go to a clergyperson for that, and if I want "energy" sent my way, I'll get some new age type to wave a crystal over me for $15.

Offering should not been seen as offensive though I think that is a little much. All you would have to do is say no thank you. Case closed.



Forget religion for a minute, and apply this to anything that someone else thinks their customers might like. News flash: If it's not directly related to what I'm asking and paying for, then I don't want it from you. Stop making my (rhetorical) day be all about you (rhetorical). Stop showing off how considerate you are, and be considerate enough to do what I fucking ask of you. Stop using initiative which turns out to be nothing more than an excuse to do something other than your job. Stop anticipating my needs and, miracle!, "discovering" that they are just what you feel like giving me.

Just do the damned job and leave me alone otherwise.

I don't necessarily agree with this either. I might not say that I want a drink but it might be nice for her/him to ask etc.

And as for the OP's post... What the hell. The Nurse should be allowed to pray to whoever she damn well likes, Moloch, FSM or Jesus - for whatever reason. Who cares if anyone is offended.

Following this logic:

A nurse who offers to pray that a gay patient become straight should be permitted to do so. Likewise, the nurse who helpfully offers to pray for a Jewish couple's sick child, that the child may come to Christ so he can be saved. Likewise a nurse who helpfully points out that a mixed-race couple are race traitors whose relationship angers God. Likewise any nurse who wants to go around offending SICK PEOPLE IN THE FUCKING HOSPITAL.

After all, it can't possibly be contrary to a hospital's mission for their own employees to be stressing out their own patients by being needlessly offensive.


Religious freedom is a *right* not a privilege, as long as she isn't harming anyone or infringing upon other peoples rights she should be allowed to do what she pleases.
Religious freedom doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want while you're on the job. My religion requires that I spend at least 14 hours per day playing videogames, yet for some reason I can't seem to convince any employer that I should be allowed to keep drawing a paycheck while I enjoy the religious freedom to play World of Warcraft all day. Funny how that shit works out.

Oh, and don't call me V.


Noted. How about Mr S.

I like to use initials.

Oh, and don't call me V.

I hated the movie V for Vendetta on so many levels, and it reminds of that.

My name is Valentin Selezynov, and you may call me Valentin, Val, Valya or Mr Selezynov.

I prefer Mr Selezynov.

I prefer to call you Rachmaninoff.

Oh, if you like to use initials, call me V$.

V-money it is.

How would the nurse know a person of "faith" except to ask? Maybe the first question should that should have been asked is "Are you a Christian or a person of faith?" This could be seen as an invasion of privacy.

How would the nurse know a person of "faith" except to ask? Maybe the first question should that should have been asked is "Are you a Christian or a person of faith?" This could be seen as an invasion of privacy.

Or maybe she shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe she should just do her fucking job.

Shocking, isn't it?

<snip TB saying it's not offensive>
It's pretty clear that, in your opinion, it is not offensive. And it is pretty clear that you don't understand why other people might be offended.

What is less clear is why, having been told that other people are offended by it, and having had them explain why it offends them, you keep arguing with us that it's not offensive.

It's offensive to us. Do you think you could live with that somehow? Or are you going to keep telling us we're wrong and that it's not really offensive after all?

Or maybe she shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe she should just do her fucking job.

Why...that's just crazy enough to work!

How would the nurse know a person of "faith" except to ask? Maybe the first question should that should have been asked is "Are you a Christian or a person of faith?" This could be seen as an invasion of privacy.

...and as such, common sense (hah!) would dictate that in polite company that the topic should be avoided all together. No one leaves unhappy but at the same token, no one is happy; a delightfully neutral middle ground.

It's pretty clear that, in your opinion, it is not offensive. And it is pretty clear that you don't understand why other people might be offended.

What is less clear is why, having been told that other people are offended by it, and having had them explain why it offends them, you keep arguing with us that it's not offensive.

It's offensive to us. Do you think you could live with that somehow? Or are you going to keep telling us we're wrong and that it's not really offensive after all?

but don't you understand, it's NOT offensive to you! It's just not! You say it is, but clearly it ACTUALLY isn't!

I will pray for you so that you may learn you're not actually offended.

but don't you understand, it's NOT offensive to you! It's just not! You say it is, but clearly it ACTUALLY isn't!

I will pray for you so that you may learn you're not actually offended.

Good luck with that. :D Just don't do it where I can see or hear you, though, and don't keep me posted on how it's going, because I'm busy and I don't care. ;)

Good luck with that. :D Just don't do it where I can see or hear you, though, and don't keep me posted on how it's going, because I'm busy and I don't care. ;)

stop pretending to be offended!

The dollar sign is kind of important though, because it lets people know i'm rich.

For much the same reason, this is why I have "I'm Po'!" tattooed across my forehead.

Why would you get offended if someone decided to do something which A- they believed would help you, and B- by the standards of most people who don't pray, harmless and useless? This reminds me of my high school days when my friends would get upset when they found out someone was listening to Britney Spears.

Po? Like the Telletubbie, or are you an Edgar Allen enthusiast? I don't think i get it.

Well, that defeats the purpose doesn't it. Guess I'll have to take the old straight razor to this damn tattoo.

Following this logic:

A nurse who offers to pray that a gay patient become straight should be permitted to do so. Likewise, the nurse who helpfully offers to pray for a Jewish couple's sick child, that the child may come to Christ so he can be saved. Likewise a nurse who helpfully points out that a mixed-race couple are race traitors whose relationship angers God. Likewise any nurse who wants to go around offending SICK PEOPLE IN THE FUCKING HOSPITAL.


Don't you remember that hub-bub about the signs on the buses saying 'there probably isn't a god so why worry'. That offended a lot of people didn't it? But it didn't really violate anyone's rights either. You don't have the right to not be offended.

While I agree there are some things which are in bad taste I don't think asking permission to prey on someones behalf is one. Infact I'd say It shows respect for the other persons beliefs that she asked!!!

FYI the Jewish and christian god is the same god.

And race traitors??!! That's a whole different ball of wax. She just a regular nurse not Anne Freakin' Coulter... gettin a little sick of how Christians are regularly associated with hate mongers.


After all, it can't possibly be contrary to a hospital's mission for their own employees to be stressing out their own patients by being needlessly offensive.


Hmm, needlessly offensive there's a nice fuzzy definition for you. People are offended by alot of things. I bet you'd be defending her if she were fired for having a piercing (and I would too) but a lot of people especially old ones might be offended by that. Similar some people might be offended by the nurse being the wrong color are we going to protect people right to not be needlessly offended over people religious freedoms now?


Religious freedom doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want while you're on the job. My religion requires that I spend at least 14 hours per day playing videogames, yet for some reason I can't seem to convince any employer that I should be allowed to keep drawing a paycheck while I enjoy the religious freedom to play World of Warcraft all day. Funny how that shit works out.

Logic. Funny how that shit works...

Don't you remember that hub-bub about the signs on the buses saying 'there probably isn't a god so why worry'. That offended a lot of people didn't it? But it didn't really violate anyone's rights either. You don't have the right to not be offended.

You're right, I don't have the right not to be offended. And that nurse doesn't have the right to get paid by me either. So if my employee says something that offends me, I have absolutely no right to make him stop saying it.

I do, however, have every right to not employ him anymore, and to inform him of such, should he continue.

Why would you think that? The Torah is pretty clear on what it was used for.

Yeah, well the Torah said a lot of things. Moses likes popcorn. :)

Yeah, well the Torah said a lot of things. Moses likes popcorn. :)

The story of Moses is possibly my favourite non Valentaokyo religious text. It proves that Judaism was founded on the same principles as Scientology.

I think she should look into getting lawyer. I am not familiar with UK law but Charter of Rights and Freedoms should apply. I am not an expert so go easy.

The story of Moses is possibly my favourite non Valentaokyo religious text. It proves that Judaism was founded on the same principles as Scientology.

"It's all fun and games until the firstborns die"?

Don't you remember that hub-bub about the signs on the buses saying 'there probably isn't a god so why worry'. That offended a lot of people didn't it? But it didn't really violate anyone's rights either. You don't have the right to not be offended.

While I agree there are some things which are in bad taste I don't think asking permission to prey on someones behalf is one. Infact I'd say It shows respect for the other persons beliefs that she asked!!!

FYI the Jewish and christian god is the same god.

And race traitors??!! That's a whole different ball of wax. She just a regular nurse not Anne Freakin' Coulter... gettin a little sick of how Christians are regularly associated with hate mongers.

Next time try reading my post and responding to my actual points. It'll help.


Hmm, needlessly offensive there's a nice fuzzy definition for you.

Not really. Needlessly: done without need. Offensive: shit that offended somebody.

If you're not sure whether or not you're being needlessly offensive, here's a handy way to check:

1) Did you offend somebody with your words or actions? If yes, proceed to 2. If no, proceed to 4.
2) Did you actually need to say or do whatever it was that you said or did? If yes, proceed to 4. If no, proceed to 3.
3) Congrats, you've just been needlessly offensive. Try not to do it again.
4) Don't worry, you're not needlessly offensive, because either you didn't offend anybody, or you offended them but it was an unavoidable part of the job you were trying to do.


People are offended by alot of things. I bet you'd be defending her if she were fired for having a piercing (and I would too) but a lot of people especially old ones might be offended by that. Similar some people might be offended by the nurse being the wrong color are we going to protect people right to not be needlessly offended over people religious freedoms now?

1) She wasn't fired.
2) I never said she should be fired.
3) Should I just leave you and your strawmen alone to your orgy? Cause I'm feeling like a bit of a fifth-wheel at this point...


Logic. Funny how that shit works...
True, your logic does indeed work funny, quite unlike our simple Earth logic.

I think she should look into getting lawyer. I am not familiar with UK law but Charter of Rights and Freedoms should apply. I am not an expert so go easy.

Don't get the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is Canadian mixed up with the Charter of Fundamental Freedoms, which was passed by the EU.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6225580.stm

You have to work for it, and don't think I've got all the time in the world to level either.

Let me send you the Horde levelling guide. It should speed the process up. I made it from 1-55 in about a month using it.

sure, that'll help. Part of the issue is just having clue 0 of where to go, but it does seem pretty linear, in the "Follow this road, kill everything you find. you will come across a villiage, by the time you reach that villiage, if you killed everything you found, you'll be high enough level to do the quests in that villiage. Do do the quests in the villiage, continue following road, kill everything you find." sorta way.

*snip*

My point was that the nurses right to freedom of expression and religious freedom supersedes the patients right to not be offended. In this case the patient wasn't actually ... but even if she was the nurse should only be disciplined if she did something inappropriate. What did she do? She asked if she could prey for someone.

How is this disrespectful? (...in earth logic please).

She asked if she could prey for someone.

Hillarious typo, for a nurse. "So...ya hungry?"

damnit that's the second time I've done the exact same typo.

<waits_for_thread_to_degenerate_into_discussion_about_velociraptors/>

There is another element to this which I think we shouldn't forget. Nurses, (like doctors, teachers etc) especially home nurses are in a position of relative authority over their patients. Especially if they are particularly ill. This may not be a problem with someone who has a broken hip say but if you consider anyone who may have an illness affecting their mental capacities it can be difficult for them to refuse, even if they don't necessarily wish for the nurses to do so. In fact they may feel obligated to let said nurses pray for them even if doing so makes them uncomfortable.

Like all professional carers she is not dealing with people under normal circumstances, where they can realistically ask her to leave. She is dealing with people who may (in some cases) be Very dependant on her for their well-being and in some cases she may be the only point of contact they have (if they lack mobility, have no family etc). This means her conduct does need to be held to a higher standard and she should know that before taking the job.

Don't get the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is Canadian mixed up with the Charter of Fundamental Freedoms, which was passed by the EU.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6225580.stm

Thanks I knew you had to have something like that. Usually Charter of something, in the UK. Thanks I was asking for what it was called.

My point was that the nurses right to freedom of expression and religious freedom supersedes the patients right to not be offended.
Where is the limitation of freedom of expression/religion here?

First, a nurse's job is not to evangalise. Secondly, as an employee of a secular, state organisation, evangelising is completely inapropriate.

No-one is asking the nurse to stop believing what she wants, or asking her to stop worshipping her god during her own time. But when she is doing the work of the NHS, a secular organisation, she has no place promoting her faith.

Otherwise, all those examples Bottle gave would apply.

Here is one violation.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/04473_en.pdf

Freedom of expression and information
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold
opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority
and regardless of frontiers.
2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.

And here is number 2.

Article 10
Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes
freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. The right to conscientious objection is recognised, in accordance with the national laws
governing the exercise of this right

Here is one violation.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/04473_en.pdf

Freedom of expression and information
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold
opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority
and regardless of frontiers.
2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.

And here is number 2.

Article 10
Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes
freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. The right to conscientious objection is recognised, in accordance with the national laws
governing the exercise of this right

Both of those rights are qualified, however.

Here is one violation.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/04473_en.pdf

Freedom of expression and information
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold
opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority
and regardless of frontiers.
2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.

And here is number 2.

Article 10
Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes
freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. The right to conscientious objection is recognised, in accordance with the national laws
governing the exercise of this right
yeah but that doesnt give you the right to foist your religion on other people while you are working.

My point was that the nurses right to freedom of expression and religious freedom supersedes the patients right to not be offended.
Not exactly.

The nurse's right to freedom of expression and religious freedom do, as you say, supersede the patient's (non-existent) right to not be offended. However, the hospital's right to not employ the nurse supersedes the nurse's (non-existent) right to be employed at a job where she fails to perform appropriately.


In this case the patient wasn't actually ... but even if she was the nurse should only be disciplined if she did something inappropriate.

You seem to feel that suspending a nurse while her conduct is investigated is the same as summarily firing her. Not sure why that is.

It's a fairly standard procedure (at least in my country) to suspend somebody if there has been a complaint, while the complaint is investigated.

What did she do? She asked if she could prey for someone.
How is this disrespectful? (...in earth logic please).
Like the nurse in question, you appear to be unwilling or unable to simply listen to other people and respect their wishes, since your question has already been answered several times over in this very thread.

yeah but that doesnt give you the right to foist your religion on other people while you are working.

I believe that to be covered under freedom of expression.


I believe also that is covered under this language

"freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

The nurse's right to freedom of expression and religious freedom do, as you say, supersede the patient's (non-existent) right to not be offended. However, the hospital's right to not employ the nurse supersedes the nurse's (non-existent) right to be employed at a job where she fails to perform appropriately.
Exactly, and that's the key; not the fact that what she said was linked to Christianity.

If she'd been advocating the merits of the Labour party, or talking about how great ExxonMobile was, she'd be just as in the wrong.

I believe that to be covered under freedom of expression.


I believe also that is covered under this language

"freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

As I said above, you haven't got the entire article there - they are both qualified. I can't be bothered to look up the exact language, but it's along the lines of 'subject to such restrictions as are necessary in a democratic society'.

Well, I would be mildly concerned to have someone looking after me if they believe praying to be an effective form of treatment. I wouldn't bother reporting it if they offered it in addition to normal treatment though.

I believe that to be covered under freedom of expression.

Except she's hardly being prosecuted for it. It's her employer's right to deem certain forms of expression inappropriate given her job. Same as the right to expression means a shop assistant can be rude to customers (and they will be offended by it, though they don't have a 'right' as such to be) however their employer would then, legitimately, fire them.

Furthermore, they have only suspended her pending investigation, given previous information about her evangelising I suspect this is just one in a long list of somewhat inappropriate actions.

First, a nurse's job is not to evangalise. Secondly, as an employee of a secular, state organisation, evangelising is completely inapropriate.


How is asking if she may prey for someone evangelizing?


No-one is asking the nurse to stop believing what she wants, or asking her to stop worshipping her god during her own time. But when she is doing the work of the NHS, a secular organisation, she has no place promoting her faith.


No? They are disciplining her for asking someone if she may pray for someone in her own time.

How is asking if she may prey for someone promoting her faith?

yeah but that doesnt give you the right to foist your religion on other people while you are working.

How is asking if she may prey for someone foisting her religion on other people?

I would say disciplining her for exercising her right to pray for whom ever she wants is foisting secularist values upon her. Would it be better if she didn't ask? And simply did what she wanted without consent? Certainly there is nothing anyone could say about it but I think that would be less respectful of other peoples beliefs.

As I said above, you haven't got the entire article there - they are both qualified. I can't be bothered to look up the exact language, but it's along the lines of 'subject to such restrictions as are necessary in a democratic society'.

I would be happy to do the research. Same article as before.

The right guaranteed in paragraph 1 corresponds to the right guaranteed in Article 9 of the ECHR and, in accordance with Article 52(3) of the Charter, has the same meaning and scope. Limitations
must therefore respect Article 9(2) of the Convention, which reads as follows: "Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order,health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."The right guaranteed in paragraph 2 corresponds to national constitutional traditions and to the development of national legislation on this issue.


I don't think either of the 2 bolded sections are in violation by this action.

How is asking if she may prey for someone evangelizing?

How is asking if she may prey for someone promoting her faith?

How is asking if she may prey for someone foisting her religion on other people?

Well, I think if people do not want to be hunted, we should give them that right. After all, being hunted is a very serious affair, and I would want nothing whatsoever to do with it.

However, clearly her religion is nutty if it forces them to hunt people.

I don't think either of the 2 bolded sections are in violation by this action.

I happen to agree; I was simply trying to say that you can't just rely on the right as if it is absolute and the end of the argument.

First was religion this one is expression


1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary." Pursuant to Article 52(3) of the Charter, the meaning and scope of this right are the same as those guaranteed by the ECHR. The limitations which may be imposed on it may therefore not
exceed those provided for in Article 10(2) of the Convention, without prejudice to any restrictions which Community competition law may impose on Member States' right to introduce the licensing arrangements referred to in the third sentence of Article 10(1) of the ECHR.
3. Paragraph 2 of this Article spells out the consequences of paragraph 1 regarding freedom of the media. It is based in particular on Court of Justice case law regarding television, particularly in case C-288/89 (judgment of 25 July 1991, Stichting Collectieve Antennevoorziening Gouda and others [1991] ECR I-4007), and on the Protocol on the system of public broadcasting in the Member States annexed to the EC Treaty, and on Council Directive 89/552/EC (particularly its seventeenth recital).

Well, I think if people do not want to be hunted, we should give them that right. After all, being hunted is a very serious affair, and I would want nothing whatsoever to do with it.

However, clearly her religion is nutty if it forces them to hunt people.

Well it's maybe it's ok if they are holographic patients...

Oh wait that doesn't work either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesh_and_Blood_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)).

I think your language is almost better than the US language in that it is more clear and concise.

From the Daily Mail (article on this same subject)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133423/Nurse-faces-sack-offering-pray-sick-patient.html


She admits she received a previous warning about promoting her faith at work. Last October she offered to give a prayer card to an elderly male patient in Clevedon, Somerset. He accepted it but his carer raised concerns with the Primary Care Trust.

Alison Withers, Mrs Petrie's boss at the time, wrote to her at the end of November saying: 'As a nurse you are required to uphold the reputation of your profession.

'Your NMC (Nursing Midwifery Council) code states that "you must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity" and "you must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health".'

So she'd already been warned about this behavior and was specifically told to knock it off. She openly admits that she continued to bring her religion to work with her, and is now going all doe-eyes and expressing surprise that it would even be an issue. Gee whiz.

I think it's also worth noting that the individual who reported the nurse in this most recent case is, herself, an identified Christian. The patient specifically said that she herself wasn't offended but she saw how others might be offended. Clearly, there are Christians who are capable of grasping why prayerful behavior isn't appropriate in this situation.

Well it's maybe it's ok if they are holographic patients...

Oh wait that doesn't work either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesh_and_Blood_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)).

I like homicidal computers.

If you want to pray for someone, just do it. There's no reason to ask them....unless you're being an attention whore.

Why would you even ask a stranger if you could pray for them? :confused:

If you want to pray for someone, just do it. There's no reason to ask them....unless you're being an attention whore.

Why would you even ask a stranger if you could pray for them? :confused:

I also see it as unnecessary but I don't see why it should be offensive. The reason she would ask is because some people might say no.

I think she was trying to be a good christian and respect other peoples beliefs as well.

If you want to pray for someone, just do it. There's no reason to ask them....unless you're being an attention whore.

Why would you even ask a stranger if you could pray for them? :confused:

:fluffle:

I also see it as unnecessary but I don't see why it should be offensive. The reason she would ask is because some people might say no.

I think she was trying to be a good christian and respect other peoples beliefs as well.

If you don't know someone well enough to know if praying for them would be offensive, then don't bring it up.

All Christians I have ever known pray for people they haven't even met. "Dear God, please help the people in Dafur and please help our government grow a pair" and such.......

How is asking if she may pr[a]y for someone evangelizing?
In the sense that she is offering a specific religious outlook, accompanied by her professional authority. It's an unnacceptable bluring of boundaries; she is, intentionally or not, linking her health advice with spiritual advice.

Against, as Bottle pointed out, the expressed wishes of her employers and the guidelines of the Nursing Midwifery Council.

No? They are disciplining her for asking someone if she may pray for someone in her own time.
The NHS is not (potentially) disciplining her for praying in her own time; they're (potentially) disciplining her for bringing this personal religion into her profession in a public manner; essentially equating the NHS with a specific religious outlook.

I would say disciplining her for exercising her right to pray for whom ever she wants is foisting secularist values upon her.
Then you'd be wrong, on multiple counts, as she is not being asked to stop praying, she is being asked to do a secular job in the secular fashion required of it. Just as, if she were promoting a certain political party, she would be asked to do an apolitical job in the apolitical fashion required of it.

Secondly, she is not having anything 'foisted' upon her. She works for a secular organisation. If she wishes, she could apply to join one of the many religious hospices, etc., which are non-secular. Promoting one's faith as an individual is perfectly legitimate. But when one is promting one's faith as a representative of a secular organisation, something is badly wrong.

Would it be better if she didn't ask? And simply did what she wanted without consent?
If she wants to pray for anyone in her own time, she is perfectly welcome to do so. But, once again, working as a non-clergy representative of a secular organisation, she has no business injecting her faith into her work.

the NHS needs the Matron back would this happened or be in the news if there where proper Matrons around

I believe that to be covered under freedom of expression.


I believe also that is covered under this language

"freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

I have not fully caught up with last few pages yet, but I do not believe that any law gives you the right to preach to me if I don't want you to. I don't believe that any law gives you the right even to talk to me without my express permission, regardless of the subject matter. You need to carry some kind of official authority if you want to claim my attention regardless of my wishes -- something like being a cop or a judge. But you're not a cop or a judge, and neither is this nurse.

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose starts. Your right to evangelize ends where it meets my ears.

The way some of you put it:

Secularism == the new Puritanism

But that's just my opinion. I can see that I'm not going to convert anyone here.

IMHO I think secularism deserves as much separation from state as church does from state. I realize that sounds contradictory but it isn't really. If you enforce equality of religion until simply having one isn't kosher anymore what have you accomplished?

Why can't we all just accept peoples differences and stop getting offended every time some one disagrees with whats PC these days.

I also see it as unnecessary but I don't see why it should be offensive. The reason she would ask is because some people might say no.

I think she was trying to be a good christian and respect other peoples beliefs as well.
Here's a question for you: What part of "I find that offensive" do you not understand?

Why does it matter why it is offensive? It offends someone, you knock it off, unless your goal is to offend that person. Is that the goal in praying for people? No? Then when someone tells you they don't like it, knock it off. Why is that a problem for some people to comprehend?

IMHO I think secularism deserves as much separation from state as church does from state. I realize that sounds contradictory but it isn't really. If you enforce equality of religion until simply having one isn't kosher anymore what have you accomplished?

Just FYI, wearing your persecution complex on your sleeve makes you look fat.


Why can't we all just accept peoples differences and stop getting offended every time some one disagrees with whats PC these days.
Why can't we all just quit believing that we have the "right" to say or do whatever we want without any consequences whatsoever?

i think they ought keep their delusions to themselves.

bingo!!!

Here's a question for you: What part of "I find that offensive" do you not understand?

Why does it matter why it is offensive? It offends someone, you knock it off, unless your goal is to offend that person. Is that the goal in praying for people? No? Then when someone tells you they don't like it, knock it off. Why is that a problem for some people to comprehend?
It goes like this...

Asshat: You shouldn't be offended by what I have to say.
Everywoman: Actually, I do find it offensive.
Asshat: Well you shouldn't. I have the right to say what I want.
Everywoman: Yes, you have the right to say it, but I also find it offensive. Now that you know it offends me, will you at least own up to the fact that you're willingly choosing to be offensive?
Asshat: No, because you shouldn't feel offended, and therefore I'm not offending you. So there.
Everywoman: Kindly fuck off.
Asshat: HELP HELP IM BEING REPRESSED!!!!

The way some of you put it:

Secularism == the new Puritanism

But that's just my opinion. I can see that I'm not going to convert anyone here.

IMHO I think secularism deserves as much separation from state as church does from state. I realize that sounds contradictory but it isn't really. If you enforce equality of religion until simply having one isn't kosher anymore what have you accomplished?

Why can't we all just accept peoples differences and stop getting offended every time some one disagrees with whats PC these days.
Why can't you just accept that some people don't want to be prayed over and don't want to be asked for permission to pray over them, and don't want to hear about or otherwise be made aware of your religious beliefs? If they're not going about boasting of their secularism and offering to help you with it, why should they have to put up with that from you? If you have been told that something offends someone, why can't you just stop doing it, instead of acting like you're being attacked?

It goes like this...

Asshat: You shouldn't be offended by what I have to say.
Everywoman: Actually, I do find it offensive.
Asshat: Well you shouldn't. I have the right to say what I want.
Everywoman: Yes, you have the right to say it, but I also find it offensive. Now that you know it offends me, will you at least own up to the fact that you're willingly choosing to be offensive?
Asshat: No, because you shouldn't feel offended, and therefore I'm not offending you. So there.
Everywoman: Kindly fuck off.
Asshat: HELP HELP IM BEING REPRESSED!!!!

Bloody peasants.

IMHO I think secularism deserves as much separation from state as church does from state.
... so the state is what... deist?
I realize that sounds contradictory but it isn't really.
It doesn't sound contradictory, it just sounds stupid.
If you enforce equality of religion until simply having one isn't kosher anymore what have you accomplished?
Eh the seperation of state and religion is not the same as banning religion, it's just not picking one religion over the others.
Why can't we all just accept peoples differences
That's what the state being secular does -_-

"Enjoy yer differences boys and girls, we're staying neutral on this one"
and stop getting offended every time some one disagrees with whats PC these days.
... wut?

It goes like this...

Asshat: You shouldn't be offended by what I have to say.
Everywoman: Actually, I do find it offensive.
Asshat: Well you shouldn't. I have the right to say what I want.
Everywoman: Yes, you have the right to say it, but I also find it offensive. Now that you know it offends me, will you at least own up to the fact that you're willingly choosing to be offensive?
Asshat: No, because you shouldn't feel offended, and therefore I'm not offending you. So there.
Everywoman: Kindly fuck off.
Asshat: HELP HELP IM BEING REPRESSED!!!!
Big blue meanie secularists won't let them have their way. Bad us. Bad.

Actually, this OP issue and this discussion illustrate the reason why I don't even try to explain how I feel about things or what offends me anymore.

I just tell people to shut the fuck up the very instant they open their mouths. I don't even wait to hear what they want to say. It's 99% certain to be a waste of my time. Pretty much everybody needs permission to speak to me at all nowadays, and very few people have that permission.

I have not fully caught up with last few pages yet, but I do not believe that any law gives you the right to preach to me if I don't want you to. I don't believe that any law gives you the right even to talk to me without my express permission, regardless of the subject matter.
Eh?

I can talk to you if I like, I don't have to be an authority figure or get legal dispensation. If I continually harass you, you can get the courts to stop me from coming near you, but there's nothing illegal about talking to people.

Indeed, if the nurse was just talking to the lady as an individual, there would be nothing wrong, and that's why I'd stay clear of any argument about offence. The issue isn't really over whether anyone is offended or not, it's more about the proper conduct of a public servant representing a secular institution.



IMHO I think secularism deserves as much separation from state as church does from state. I realize that sounds contradictory but it isn't really.
How can church and state be seperate but the state not be secular?

You do realise that secular doesn't equate to 'promoting an atheist/agnostic outlook', don't you?

If you enforce equality of religion until simply having one isn't kosher anymore what have you accomplished?
Please show where anyone is condemning the nurse for having a religion, as opposed to promoting it as a representative of a secular institution.

Why can't we all just accept peoples differences...
Exactly.

In the sense that she is offering a specific religious outlook, accompanied by her professional authority. It's an unnacceptable bluring of boundaries; she is, intentionally or not, linking her health advice with spiritual advice.

Against, as Bottle pointed out, the expressed wishes of her employers and the guidelines of the Nursing Midwifery Council.


The Nursing Midwifery Council mentioned that by offering to a prayer to someone that she was not "respecting the patients right to Cultural and Ethnic diversity"

How so? The patient could have said "No, I am Hindu and I don't believe in the same God as you". "No because I am an athesist and I don't believe in all that Mumbo Jumbo" or the patient could have said just plain "No thanks" or even "no". If she pressed the issue then you have a case.







The NHS is not (potentially) disciplining her for praying in her own time; they're (potentially) disciplining her for bringing this personal religion into her profession in a public manner; essentially equating the NHS with a specific religious outlook.

That is against Freedom of Expression


Then you'd be wrong, on multiple counts, as she is not being asked to stop praying, she is being asked to do a secular job in the secular fashion required of it. Just as, if she were promoting a certain political party, she would be asked to do an apolitical job in the apolitical fashion required of it.

What if she ask "do you like sports?"


Secondly, she is not having anything 'foisted' upon her. She works for a secular organisation. If she wishes, she could apply to join one of the many religious hospices, etc., which are non-secular. Promoting one's faith as an individual is perfectly legitimate. But when one is promting one's faith as a representative of a secular organisation, something is badly wrong.

But when one is promting one's faith as a representative of a secular organisation, something is badly wrong.

This both against the freedom of expression and freedom of religion. What is she wore a cross or a Star of David on her uniform assuming that is not against code?


If she wants to pray for anyone in her own time, she is perfectly welcome to do so. But, once again, working as a non-clergy representative of a secular organisation, she has no business injecting her faith into her work.

Anyway you slice it this is censorship!

Why can't you just accept that some people don't want to be prayed over and don't want to be asked for permission to pray over them, and don't want to hear about or otherwise be made aware of your religious beliefs? If they're not going about boasting of their secularism and offering to help you with it, why should they have to put up with that from you? If you have been told that something offends someone, why can't you just stop doing it, instead of acting like you're being attacked?

Why are u making this about me?

Am I prostulating my beliefs to you? no.

We are talking about a woman who is being suspended from her job for asking if she may pray for someone. I am defending her. Simple as that. And as I understand it she asked - she didn't even offend the woman who reported her.

How is she supposed to know that she crossed a line before she crosses it? Is she supposed to ask: excuse me may I ask you if I may ask you if I may pray for you? How PC do we have to be before it just gets absurd?

She asked the woman said no.

She didn't say: "Hey What the hells wrong with you! you damn liberal atheist" after wards.

Eh?

I can talk to you if I like, I don't have to be an authority figure or get legal dispensation. If I continually harass you, you can get the courts to stop me from coming near you, but there's nothing illegal about talking to people

Indeed, if the nurse was just talking to the lady as an individual, there would be nothing wrong, and that's why I'd stay clear of any argument about offence. The issue isn't really over whether anyone is offended or not, it's more about the proper conduct of a public servant representing a secular institution.
.
I didn't say it was illegal.

I said you don't have a right to do it.

You can look at me and start talking, sure. But you have no right to get and hold my attention, to make me stop whatever it is I am doing or thinking to listen to you. So, if I walk away while you are in mid-word -- which I will do if I feel like it -- you have no grounds on which to claim your rights were violated. If you have me in a closed space -- like my sickbed -- and you start prattling on about your religion, I can tell you to stop. You have no right to force me to listen to you. If you refuse, I can crank up the volume on my radio until you are drowned out, or invite someone else in so we can talk about something else over you, and you will have no grounds on which to claim your religious rights were violated.

You have no rights over me. Therefore, you have no right to include me in your religious practice.

By the way, you also have no right to enter my home premises without my permission, so if I call your employer and request a different caregiver be assigned to me as soon as possible because your behavior has offended me enough that I will not let you in my house again (which I know the patient did not do, but I would) you also have no grounds on which to claim your religious rights were violated.

For "you" read "the nurse."

You do realise that secular doesn't equate to 'promoting an atheist/agnostic outlook', don't you?


I do. I'm not sure that everyone else sees it that way though.

If you have me in a closed space -- like my sickbed -- and you start prattling on about your religion, I can tell you to stop.


but the lady didn't tell her! She just ratted her out to the NHS administration!

The first thing the nurse heard about it is when she got suspended.

Anyway you slice it this is censorship!

No it isn't - the NHS has a great deal of multi-faith chaplaincy provision
http://www.nhs-chaplaincy-spiritualcare.org.uk/
whose job it is to provide spiritual support to people who want it.

It was not her job, as a professional she should have been able to keep her beliefs to herself.

The Nursing Midwifery Council mentioned that by offering to a prayer to someone that she was not "respecting the patients right to Cultural and Ethnic diversity"

How so?
Because she is offering a specific religious prayer, which is not part of a nurse's job, and nor is it appropriate for a representative of a secular institution to do so.

Again, it's as bad as a nurse going into someone's house and extolling the benefits of a particular political party. Not on.

That is against Freedom of Expression
If you think she should be alllowed to express her religious faith, then, by implication, you'd allow any public servant to voice ay view they wished as representatives of a secular, public organisation.

Do you think civil servants should tell people how they should vote, doctors to talk to you about their favourite political party in their surgaries, teachers tell their pupils what god they should believe in?

Why are u making this about me?

Am I prostulating my beliefs to you? no.
I didn't make it about you. That was the rhetorical "you", which is often used in place of the pronoun "one" because "one" requires sometimes stilted grammar.

I assure you, I do actually realize that not everything in the world is about you.

We are talking about a woman who is being suspended from her job for asking if she may pray for someone. I am defending her. Simple as that. And as I understand it she asked - she didn't even offend the woman who reported her.

How is she supposed to know that she crossed a line before she crosses it?
Well, the fact that she had crossed that same line at least once before and been told exactly where it was and not to cross it again perhaps should have been a clue for her.

Is she supposed to ask: excuse me may I ask you if I may ask you if I may pray for you? How PC do we have to be before it just gets absurd?
No, she's supposed to do her damned job and not waste time on her private interests while she's being paid to nurse.

She asked the woman said no.

She didn't say: "Hey What the hells wrong with you! you damn liberal atheist" after wards.
She also didn't burn any strawmen on her way out, but that's as irrelevant as your remark above.

I notice you have not yet addressed my question of why, if ONE is told that something ONE is doing is offensive to someone, ONE cannot just stop doing it.

Anyway you slice it this is censorship!

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

but the lady didn't tell her! She just ratted her out to the NHS administration!

The first thing the nurse heard about it is when she got suspended.
False. The first thing the nurse heard about it was the first time she was reprimanded for doing this same kind of thing, long before this one patient reported her.

but the lady didn't tell her! She just ratted her out to the NHS administration!

The first thing the nurse heard about it is when she got suspended.
She'd been warned before about this behavior. So are you arguing that she was too stupid to understand the warning, or too rude to obey it?

Please show where anyone is condemning the nurse for having a religion, as opposed to promoting it as a representative of a secular institution.


I actually agree in principle with a lot of what you have to say but I don't think that in this case the nurse was prostulating her beliefs.

If I ask you: May I kiss you? Have I committed sexual harassment? You can say no - you can be offended if you want to be but that's your choice. I certainly haven't violated your rights by asking.

(I don't think nurses should go around asking their patients for kisses - just an analogy).

(I don't think nurses should go around asking their patients for kisses - just an analogy).

The cute ones should.

I actually agree in principle with a lot of what you have to say but I don't think that in this case the nurse was prostulating her beliefs.

If I ask you: May I kiss you? Have I committed sexual harassment? You can say no - you can be offended if you want to be but that's your choice. I certainly haven't violated your rights by asking.

(I don't think nurses should go around asking their patients for kisses - just an analogy).
If you are a store clerk, and I go into your store to buy a book, and at the check out, you ask me if you can kiss me, you better believe you're going to get reported to your boss for inappropriate behavior.

Likewise, if you are a nurse, and you come into my house to give nursing care, and you start going on about your religion and asking me if I'd like you to do religious stuff for me, yes, you are going to get reported to your boss for that, too.

Suppose we have hospital "St. Jude's" a non-secular oragaization. I say to you as Hospital Administrator "In order to get this job you must say the Lord's Prayer before every shift." You would likely feel offended and your rights have been violated.

I say tough breaks either you want the job or you don't?

I violated your freedom of speech and your freedom of religion.

Suppose we have hospital "St. Jude's" a non-secular oragaization. I say to you as Hospital Administrator "In order to get this job you must say the Lord's Prayer before every shift." You would likely feel offended and your rights have been violated.

Tell me, who told her she couldn't pray?

I didn't say it was illegal.
Then what sort of rights are you talking about here (and below, especially your talk about entering homes and such):
I said you don't have a right to do it.Natural rights?

You can look at me and start talking, sure. But you have no right to get and hold my attention, to make me stop whatever it is I am doing or thinking to listen to you. So, if I walk away while you are in mid-word -- which I will do if I feel like it -- you have no grounds on which to claim your rights were violated.
You have no grounds to say anything about rights here. There is no right to not hear words from a person, just as there is no right for them to demand you listen to them.

EDIT: Meaning that rights talk is moot here

If nothing else, I think the hospital probably doesn't want to get the reputation, "Our Nurses Will Pray For You!" Probably for much the same reason an airline wouldn't want to be known for having pilots who pray for a safe flight.

I mean, it kind of comes across as, "we're praying because Lord knows our actual skills aren't enough to assure us of success!" :P

Exactly. I would be much less distressed by a friend or acquaintance offering to pray for me to get healthier than by the person who's actually supposed to be making me healthier doing so. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the medical treatment I'm receiving.

Suppose we have hospital "St. Jude's" a non-secular oragaization. I say to you as Hospital Administrator "In order to get this job you must say the Lord's Prayer before every shift." You would likely feel offended and your rights have been violated.

I say tough breaks either you want the job or you don't?

I violated your freedom of speech and your freedom of religion.
No, you didn't.

If I ask you: May I kiss you? Have I committed sexual harassment? You can say no - you can be offended if you want to be but that's your choice. I certainly haven't violated your rights by asking.

(I don't think nurses should go around asking their patients for kisses - just an analogy).
Exactly.

Nurses shouldn't be asking their patients for kisses, nor telling them about the great new political party, nor talk about how whatever god they think will help in the healing process.

Tell me, who told her she couldn't pray?

No one said she could not pray. They did say you can not pray with others in effect. Again a violation.

Then what sort of rights are you talking about here (and below, especially your talk about entering homes and such):
Natural rights?


You have no grounds to say anything about rights here. There is no right to not hear words from a person, just as there is no right for them to demand you listen to them.

Okay, here's what I'm NOT going to do: I'm not going to get into a jargon-fight with you about the word "rights." Every time we do that, I end up putting you on ignore three days later because you never tire of splitting hairs.

I am using "rights" in the way it has been used by those who have been defending this nurse. That way is blurry, vague, and legally inaccurate, but it is appropriate in the context of this conversation.

They claim a "right" to behave in a certain manner that involves other people. I am pointing out that, even by their own weird standards, they do not have that kind of "right" to involve other people in anything they do, so that if someone takes steps to dis-involve themselves that is not a violation of their "rights."

Clear enough for you? I hope so, because it's all you're going to get on this side topic.

No, you didn't.

Yes I did but I wouldn't do it to you. You have the right not to believe. I respect that right. It is up to the individual to protect his/her rights not for the public organization to enforce.

No one said she could not pray. They did say you can not pray with other in effect. Again a violation.

No, thats not what they said either.

No one said she could not pray. They did say you can not pray with others in effect. Again a violation.

No, they did not.

you're really REALLY bad at this, ya know.

Exactly.

Nurses shouldn't be asking their patients for kisses, nor telling them about the great new political party, nor talk about how whatever god they think will help in the healing process.

You guys are no fun.

C'mon how many hour a day are you at work. Probably most of your freakin' life. Hell I'm at work right now! So what we're not allowed to talk about random bullshit anymore, religion, politics, science. You know evolution offends some people - can't talk about that too?

Seems to me that you advocating a pretty heavy dose of censorship without realizing it. Since you seem to be at-one-with-the-keyboard I'll assume that's not what you meant but what if she was talking about politics.

My hell are Atheists so fragile that someone wanting to pray for them offends them so deeply?

I am using "rights" in the way it has been used by those who have been defending this nurse. That way is blurry, vague, and legally inaccurate, but it is appropriate in the context of this conversation.
No, they (Truly Blessed and Free Satania) are talking about the legal rights of freedom of expression/religion, as guarenteed by the US constitution/EHCoHR. At least, they're talking about that or they are attesting to natural rights freedom of expression/religion.

No other conception makes sense; there is no point in talking about rights unless you are talking about an institution of rights, be it legal or natural.

Clear enough for you? I hope so, because it's all you're going to get on this side topic.
If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.


So what we're not allowed to talk about random bullshit anymore, religion, politics, science. You know evolution offends some people - can't talk about that too?
You can talk about what you want, as an individual.

The instant you act as a public servant, you are doing something entirely different.

I actually agree in principle with a lot of what you have to say but I don't think that in this case the nurse was prostulating her beliefs.

If I ask you: May I kiss you? Have I committed sexual harassment? You can say no - you can be offended if you want to be but that's your choice. I certainly haven't violated your rights by asking.

(I don't think nurses should go around asking their patients for kisses - just an analogy).
Just FYI, in the USA you are definitely NOT permitted to ask patients if you may kiss them, and it most definitely can be considered sexual harassment.

No, they (Truly Blessed and Free Satania) are talking about the legal rights of freedom of expression/religion, as guarenteed by the US constitution/EHCoHR.

Yep- that's what I'm talking about.

Not actually vague at all.

My hell are Atheists so fragile that someone wanting to pray for them offends them so deeply?

Well put. Thank you!

Yes I did but I wouldn't do it to you. You have the right not to believe. I respect that right. It is up to the individual to protect his/her rights not for the public organization to enforce.
No, you didn't.

You postulated a hospital run by a church and run as a religious organization. Religious organizations, which are private, i.e. not run by the state, are not required to be as non-committal and open as secular public organizations are. A religious organization may have the ability to demand that all its employees be members of its religion, i.e. to hire only within the religion, unless they have specific policies otherwise, and even then, that can sometimes only apply to certain jobs within the organization. But anyone who takes a job there would have to know that they are entering a religious setting and must expect to witness religious behavior during the work day. Anyone who does not want that is not obligated to work for them.

So, requiring an employee to engage in religious practice if they want to work for them is not necessarily a violation of an individual's rights when it comes to working for a religious organization.

Secular public organizations are different. They are required to comply with any and all laws that separate church from state and are obligated to cater to all religions and non-religion equally. If they allowed an employee to promote their religion to their customers or patients while that employee was on the job and acting as an agent/representative of the organization, then they could be violating the rights of the patients/customers, and thus, the law as well.

Since there was nothing at all stopping the nurse from praying on her own time, and frankly, nothing at all to stop the nurse from contacting her patient on her off hours to ask if they'd like her to pray with or for them, there is no violation of the nurse's rights, but there was the risk of a violation of someone else's.

Just FYI, in the USA you are definitely NOT permitted to ask patients if you may kiss them, and it most definitely can be considered sexual harassment.

ARGGGGG!!! That was an analogy I even said so! Actually read my post next time.

Well put. Thank you!
I'm not offended by prayer per se, though others are, I'm offended (outraged is perhaps a better term) at the blurring of church and state.

EDIT: Indeed, if I was ill and a person mentioned that they'd pray for me, as my parents do, I'd take the sentiment gladly; even if I don't believe in their religion. The problem is not that Christian prayer is taking place, but that it is offered in the same situation as medical care, as an aside if you will.

No, they (Truly Blessed and Free Satania) are talking about the legal rights of freedom of expression/religion, as guarenteed by the US constitution/EHCoHR. At least, they're talking about that or they are attesting to natural rights freedom of expression/religion

No other conception makes sense; there is no point in talking about rights unless you are talking about an institution of rights, be it legal or natural. .
If you think they understand the first thing about legal rights, then that would explain why you are getting nowhere talking to them.

If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
*stops listening to Chumbly altogether* Ah, much cooler without all that hot air blowing around. :p

My hell are Atheists so fragile that someone wanting to pray for them offends them so deeply?
Here's what I was going to say:

My hell, are theists so insecure about their beliefs that they can't shut up about them long enough to do the job they're paid to do?

But you know what? I can answer that question, thanks to the OP. See, in the OP we learn that a CHRISTIAN woman was the one who noted that the nurse's behavior was likely to offend others. So obviously there are theists who aren't self-righteous asshats with persecution complexes. It's just a loud minority who ruin things for everyone.

No one said she could not pray. They did say you can not pray with others in effect. Again a violation.

Er, no. I have no doubt that her employers have no problem whatsoever with that nurse spending all her spare time at church praying with as many others as she likes. She's just not allowed to promote any specific religion or lack thereof in her function as their employee. In the same way, the freedom to support the candidates and political positions of your choice is part of any democracy, but you will still find yourself fired very quickly if you start ending transactions with, "Thanks for shopping at Wal-Mart, and vote no on proposition B!"

ARGGGGG!!! That was an analogy I even said so! Actually read my post next time.
1) Your analogy doesn't work precisely because of my point.
2) Given that you certainly didn't do me the courtesy of reading my post before you replied with a long stream of strawmannery, why on Earth would you expect me to show you that courtesy? Could it be that *gasp* you have glaring double standards and want other people to show you more patience and respect than you show them?! Gad, that certainly doesn't fit with what we know about you so far...

Well put. Thank you!
Seriously?

You think his statement was a good point?

So, your thinking really is, "Atheists shouldn't feel the way they feel. Therefore, even though I know many of them feel offended by my behavior, I get to keep acting the same way and they don't get to say I'm offending them."

Or, more simply, you want to be a jerk, you know you're being a jerk, and you think it's mean when anybody points out that you're knowingly acting like a jerk.

ARGGGGG!!! That was an analogy I even said so! Actually read my post next time.

Next time, try using an analogy that does not illustrate the exact opposite of what you were trying to say. You were trying to say that asking someone if you can pray for them is not offensive in a similar way that asking someone if you can kiss them is not sexual harrassment. But as Bottle points out, asking someone if you can kiss them most certainly can be sexual harrassment in work situations, so if the religious question is similar to the kissing question, then it does not look good for the religious quesion.

If you think [one] understand the first thing about legal rights, then that would explain why [one] are getting nowhere talking to [one].


*stops listening to [One] altogether* Ah, much cooler without all that hot air blowing around. :p

Ones being impersonal remember.

If you think they understand the first thing about legal rights, then that would explain why you are getting nowhere talking to them.
It's what they're talking about; correctly or not.

1) Your analogy doesn't work precisely because of my point.
2) Given that you certainly didn't do me the courtesy of reading my post before you replied with a long stream of strawmannery, why on Earth would you expect me to show you that courtesy? Could it be that *gasp* you have glaring double standards and want other people to show you more patience and respect than you show them?! Gad, that certainly doesn't fit with what we know about you so far...

Ok you keep saying I am building a straw man ... define how.

My hell are Atheists so fragile that someone wanting to pray for them offends them so deeply?

In general, we don't believe in prayer; we don't want to be in people's prayers. What we want is our beliefs to be respected just as you would want yours to be respected.

Ones being impersonal remember.
No, that time I actually was talking about you. Apparently, your grammar is as bad as the reasoning behind your arguments.

The "you"'s in the above are also non-rhetorical.

Muravyets, Bottle - You twisting my words and you know it. You not arguing with me your arguing with yourself.

Chumblywumbly - I disagree with you but at least you not deliberately trying to twist my words and make me say things I am not. I respect your point of view but I have mine and respectfully I disagree.

Everyone - it's been nice but I must be going.

Ones being impersonal remember.

No, that time I actually was talking about you. Apparently, your grammar is as bad as the reasoning behind your arguments.

The "you"'s in the above are also non-rhetorical.

Irony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony)

Seriously?

You think his statement was a good point?

So, your thinking really is, "Atheists shouldn't feel the way they feel. Therefore, even though I know many of them feel offended by my behavior, I get to keep acting the same way and they don't get to say I'm offending them."

Or, more simply, you want to be a jerk, you know you're being a jerk, and you think it's mean when anybody points out that you're knowingly acting like a jerk.

You are within your rights to Say "no". "No, I do not want you to pray for me". You don't even need to give a reason. If i asked do you like sports? Would you have been offended? You could say get lost I am in pain. No I hate sports. I have better things to do. The question in itself is no harm.

I would not be offended if someone offered to pray for me. Why would I be? Whether they believe in god and wish to pray for me is their opinion, hell if i care, I'd just let them and thank them for their concern. Take it as a sign that they care.

People get offended over the silliest things me thinks.

In general, we don't believe in prayer; we don't want to be in people's prayers. What we want is our beliefs to be respected just as you would want yours to be respected.

Quite, although I don't see how *asking* if I could pray for you is offensive, I would absolutely still be respecting your beliefs, if I went on to pray anyway, that would be another issue.

NOTE: I would say the nurse crossed the line, but that is because she is acting as part of the government, and further as an employee warned not to do such while on the job.

You are within your rights to Say "no". "No, I do not want you to pray for me". You don't even need to give a reason. If i asked do you like sports? Would you have been offended? You could say get lost I am in pain. No I hate sports. I have better things to do. The question in itself is no harm.

But sports and religion are not the same thing, now, are they?

Clearly, the nurse in question is trying to use a subtle form of witnessing. From a Christian point of view, that is fine and maybe, even, to be commended. From a professional point of view, it is letting her faith interfere in her work.

Is it as 'serious' as a doctor who refuses to do certain treatments, or see certain patients? No, maybe not. But it is still inappropriate.

As someone else pointed out, if the nurse had been Wiccan, and had offered to perform some kind of ritual, this wouldn't even be a story.

I would not be offended if someone offered to pray for me. Why would I be? Whether they believe in god and wish to pray for me is their opinion, hell if i care, I'd just let them and thank them for their concern. Take it as a sign that they care.

People get offended over the silliest things me thinks.

I personally wouldn't be offended, either.

WHere I think the line is corssed, is that this person is crossing the professional line. If the story was about a random stranger offering to pray for them... no real issue. But once the person is your care-provider, the dynamic changes, and the carer should be professional, first and foremost.

Quite, although I don't see how *asking* if I could pray for you is offensive, I would absolutely still be respecting your beliefs, if I went on to pray anyway, that would be another issue.

NOTE: I would say the nurse crossed the line, but that is because she is acting as part of the government, and further as an employee warned not to do such while on the job.

Asking is not a problem. It's a combination of her current position and the context in which she was asking that may have been a problem and thus offensive.

No, you didn't.

You postulated a hospital run by a church and run as a religious organization. Religious organizations, which are private, i.e. not run by the state, are not required to be as non-committal and open as secular public organizations are. A religious organization may have the ability to demand that all its employees be members of its religion, i.e. to hire only within the religion, unless they have specific policies otherwise, and even then, that can sometimes only apply to certain jobs within the organization. But anyone who takes a job there would have to know that they are entering a religious setting and must expect to witness religious behavior during the work day. Anyone who does not want that is not obligated to work for them.

With regard to a teacher they can give you a curriculum you do not agree with. The employer at least in the states can not say you must convert to work here. With the possible exception of the Clergy. We will leave them alone for this one moment. As a nurse they can not say you must be Catholic to work here.


So, requiring an employee to engage in religious practice if they want to work for them is not necessarily a violation of an individual's rights when it comes to working for a religious organization.

The organization can set aside time to pray or go to mass or whatever it is up to the individual to make use of the offer.


Secular public organizations are different. They are required to comply with any and all laws that separate church from state and are obligated to cater to all religions and non-religion equally. If they allowed an employee to promote their religion to their customers or patients while that employee was on the job and acting as an agent/representative of the organization, then they could be violating the rights of the patients/customers, and thus, the law as well.

How was she violating the patients rights? This is what I want to know.


Since there was nothing at all stopping the nurse from praying on her own time, and frankly, nothing at all to stop the nurse from contacting her patient on her off hours to ask if they'd like her to pray with or for them, there is no violation of the nurse's rights, but there was the risk of a violation of someone else's.

contacting her patient on her off hours to ask if they'd like her to pray with or for them

You make a valid point there but she could still be seen as an Agent/Employee of the Hospital even if on her own time.

In fact that is what the hospital should have done is say "Pray on your on your own time. If you want to pray at work do it silently. There you go everyone is happy nobody get suspended...

In fact that is what the hospital should have done is say "Pray on your on your own time. If you want to pray at work do it silently. There you go everyone is happy nobody get suspended...

they probably did, the first time this happened. Or did you notice that this wasn't the first time she received similar complaints?

You are within your rights to Say "no". "No, I do not want you to pray for me". You don't even need to give a reason. If i asked do you like sports? Would you have been offended? You could say get lost I am in pain. No I hate sports. I have better things to do. The question in itself is no harm.

One person asking this question might not seem much to you, but if you allow one nurse to do this you then have to give every other belief system an equal opportunity to annoy the patient as well. The patient is there to receive medical treatment not to be a captive audience for people trying to push their religious beliefs.

In fact that is what the hospital should have done is say "Pray on your on your own time. If you want to pray at work do it silently. There you go everyone is happy nobody get suspended...

The employer did tell her that. She ignored them and did it again anyway. Hence the suspension.

Muravyets, Bottle - You twisting my words and you know it. You not arguing with me your arguing with yourself.

Chumblywumbly - I disagree with you but at least you not deliberately trying to twist my words and make me say things I am not. I respect your point of view but I have mine and respectfully I disagree.

Everyone - it's been nice but I must be going.
I am aware of doing no such thing. 'Bye.

Asking is not a problem. It's a combination of her current position and the context in which she was asking that may have been a problem and thus offensive.

To you and Grave N Idle

How is this not acting in a professional manner? You know if she was offering to pray and the wrapped her bandages wrong. Okay then she was not paying attention to what she was doing.

There was no indication from the story that she did anything wrong in that regard.

To Grave

How would this not be the same as "Do you like sports?"

Yes, I might talk about the game last night.
No, I will keep quiet.

I could even been seen as small talk just to break the ice make the patient feel more comfortable.


This reeks of Politically Correctness and censorship.

To you and Grave N Idle

How is this not acting in a professional manner?

What part of her job involves praying for people?

None?

OK then.

The patient is there to receive medical treatment not to be a captive audience for people trying to push their religious beliefs.

This ^^

<snip>
I don't want to get into the morass of telling UK rules from US rules, especially since I think neither of us works in areas related to these rules and therefore are not experts on them. They are not germane to the main discussion. I stand by my assertion that your analogy is not a case of rights being violate. You stand by your assertion that it is. I suggest we agree to disagree on that point and move on to others.

How was she violating the patients rights? This is what I want to know.
Okay, first a reminder of the facts in the OP case: The patient who reported the nurse was not having her rights violated and did not claim that she was. She only suggested that, as others may find the nurse's behavior offensive, she should be advised not to do it. Further, I never said that this patient was having her rights violated by the nurse.

Now to clarify: I do not mean that the nurse being religious and wanting bring religion to her job would be a violation of patients' rights. What I mean is that the secular, public organization she works for could potentially be seen as violating the rights of some patients if this nurse, acting in her capacity as agent and representative of the public organization, appears to be promoting religion, and her religion in particular, as part of the service provided by the public organization.

Because the public organization has an obligation to serve all patients equally and an obligation to comply with all law governing public agencies, including laws regarding the rights of citizens, then if there are laws protecting citizens' right to be religious or not religious, and to practice different religions, then the public organization cannot provide religious service in just one religion.

Because the nurse is an agent and representative of the organization while she is on duty, everything she does on duty reflects on the operations of the organization she works for. Therefore, to the extent that her religious activities are something the organization is not allowed to do, then she cannot do it while she is on duty.

What she does on her own time is a completely different question.

contacting her patient on her off hours to ask if they'd like her to pray with or for them

You make a valid point there but she could still be seen as an Agent/Employee of the Hospital even if on her own time.

In fact that is what the hospital should have done is say "Pray on your on your own time. If you want to pray at work do it silently. There you go everyone is happy nobody get suspended...

Whether she would be allowed to contact patients on her off hours or not is a matter of policy with her employer, or possibly of a matter of law governing the organization she works for. But it is an entirely different question from whether she is allowed to practice her religion while on the job.

The same can be said of the suspension. I happen to believe that suspension without pay is harsh -- though apparently she is paid by the hour, so any suspension will be unpaid. But we do not know the required procedures for disciplinary action. They may have had no choice but to suspend her pending investigation of the matter.

Also, keep in mind that because she had been reprimanded more than once for this kind of thing, she may not be being investigated for her religious activities at all, but rather for insubordination in ignoring orders from her supervisor and perhaps for violating other policies and rules of employment. That would explain why an "investigation" is needed, if they are looking to see if there have been multiple disciplinary problems with this employee.

they probably did, the first time this happened. Or did you notice that this wasn't the first time she received similar complaints?

Likely this person was trying to get paid. There I said it. The principle is what I am arguing. High standards / High Ideals and all that.

This would be a dream case, likely get you before the Supreme Court. See how they went to the court of Public Opinion first. It is a perceived injustice which I agree with.

To you and Grave N Idle

How is this not acting in a professional manner? You know if she was offering to pray and the wrapped her bandages wrong. Okay then she was not paying attention to what she was doing.


It's unprofessional for several reasons - not least that carers ALWAYS have to tread a fine line concerning what sort of 'relationship' they have with their patients.

But, specifically - the carer's job is to make the patient feel comfortable. Reduce pain, set their mind at ease, whatever.

This situation has the potential to blow back, and do exactly the opposite - make the aptient UNcomfortable... with the treatment that follows the question if you don't 'answer right', with the atmosphere in the room... with the knock-on implications.

Better to avoid the whole issue.


There was no indication from the story that she did anything wrong in that regard.


And the patient didn't actually complain that THEY had a problem - they said someone ELSE might.


To Grave

How would this not be the same as "Do you like sports?"

Yes, I might talk about the game last night.
No, I will keep quiet.

I could even been seen as small talk just to break the ice make the patient feel more comfortable.


Which has exactly the opposite effect if someone doesn't want to discuss religion, or has different convictions. It doesn't even have to be about christians-v's-non... if you believe that religion is ONLY a deeply personal relationship with god, you MIGHT consider the nurse to be acting very inappropriately.

It's 'not the same' because it's loaded. It's potentially explosive if you don't have the same answers as one another.

It's not the same because 'offering to talk about sports' isn't going to lead on to three quarters of an hour of discussion of why you need to let Tottenham Hotspur into your heart.


This reeks of Politically Correctness and censorship.

Not at all.

Is it okay with you if I make blood sacrifices to Satan in your name?

Likely this person was trying to get paid. There I said it. The principle is what I am arguing. High standards / High Ideals and all that.

This would be a dream case, likely get you before the Supreme Court. See how they went to the court of Public Opinion first. It is a perceived injustice which I agree with.

The legal system in the UK tends to be a little less... of a lottery... than the US.

It's unlikely the patient was just mentioning it as a means to 'making it big'.

One person asking this question might not seem much to you, but if you allow one nurse to do this you then have to give every other belief system an equal opportunity to annoy the patient as well. The patient is there to receive medical treatment not to be a captive audience for people trying to push their religious beliefs.
This^^. So very much.

I don't want to get into the morass of telling UK rules from US rules, especially since I think neither of us works in areas related to these rules and therefore are not experts on them. They are not germane to the main discussion. I stand by my assertion that your analogy is not a case of rights being violate. You stand by your assertion that it is. I suggest we agree to disagree on that point and move on to others.


Okay, first a reminder of the facts in the OP case: The patient who reported the nurse was not having her rights violated and did not claim that she was. She only suggested that, as others may find the nurse's behavior offensive, she should be advised not to do it. Further, I never said that this patient was having her rights violated by the nurse.

Now to clarify: I do not mean that the nurse being religious and wanting bring religion to her job would be a violation of patients' rights. What I mean is that the secular, public organization she works for could potentially be seen as violating the rights of some patients if this nurse, acting in her capacity as agent and representative of the public organization, appears to be promoting religion, and her religion in particular, as part of the service provided by the public organization.

Because the public organization has an obligation to serve all patients equally and an obligation to comply with all law governing public agencies, including laws regarding the rights of citizens, then if there are laws protecting citizens' right to be religious or not religious, and to practice different religions, then the public organization cannot provide religious service in just one religion.

Because the nurse is an agent and representative of the organization while she is on duty, everything she does on duty reflects on the operations of the organization she works for. Therefore, to the extent that her religious activities are something the organization is not allowed to do, then she cannot do it while she is on duty.

What she does on her own time is a completely different question.



Whether she would be allowed to contact patients on her off hours or not is a matter of policy with her employer, or possibly of a matter of law governing the organization she works for. But it is an entirely different question from whether she is allowed to practice her religion while on the job.

The same can be said of the suspension. I happen to believe that suspension without pay is harsh -- though apparently she is paid by the hour, so any suspension will be unpaid. But we do not know the required procedures for disciplinary action. They may have had no choice but to suspend her pending investigation of the matter.

Also, keep in mind that because she had been reprimanded more than once for this kind of thing, she may not be being investigated for her religious activities at all, but rather for insubordination in ignoring orders from her supervisor and perhaps for violating other policies and rules of employment. That would explain why an "investigation" is needed, if they are looking to see if there have been multiple disciplinary problems with this employee.

You make some very interesting challenges. The organization in question does provide clergy services upon request. Maybe she felt that since the organization did not object to them doing so maybe they would not object to her doing so. If that were they case wouldn't said organization have no clergy services altogether?


On a straight note: I think she is looking for a law suit which she will likely get I am arguing on principle.



Because the public organization has an obligation to serve all patients equally and an obligation to comply with all law governing public agencies, including laws regarding the rights of citizens, then if there are laws protecting citizens' right to be religious or not religious, and to practice different religions, then the public organization cannot provide religious service in just one religion.


I don't see how she violated any of this

Likely this person was trying to get paid. There I said it. The principle is what I am arguing. High standards / High Ideals and all that.

This would be a dream case, likely get you before the Supreme Court. See how they went to the court of Public Opinion first. It is a perceived injustice which I agree with.
I see. So the nurse who just can't keep her religion to herself for a few hours a day is all pure and innocent has only the kindest and least selfish motives of all, but anyone who suggests that her behavior is not appropriate for her job (which is all this patient did) is just selfishly looking to get money?

It's nice to see that, as eager as you are to think the best of people who believe similarly to you, you are just as willing to think the worst of those who don't.

You make some very interesting challenges. The organization in question does provide clergy services upon request.
A) The nurse is not clergy.

B) No one requested her to perform religious services for them.

Maybe she felt that since the organization did not object to them doing so maybe they would not object to her doing so. If that were they case wouldn't said organization have no clergy services altogether?
Like I said to FreeSatania, the fact that she had already been reprimanded for this very thing more than once and told not to do it anymore should have been a clue to her that her employers would actually object. You know, seeing as how they had already objected.

On a straight note: I think she is looking for a law suit which she will likely get I am arguing on principle.
Yes, I have already expressed my opinion about your "principle" on that point.

I don't see how she violated any of this
I am aware that you don't see it. I am also aware that it has been explained to you numerous times. You either are incapable of seeing it, or you are just not willing to see it. Either way, I see no point in repeating the same arguments. I suggest you just keep reading the thread over and over until you do see it.

It's unprofessional for several reasons - not least that carers ALWAYS have to tread a fine line concerning what sort of 'relationship' they have with their patients.

But, specifically - the carer's job is to make the patient feel comfortable. Reduce pain, set their mind at ease, whatever.

Arguably that is what the prayer for speedy recovery etc.


This situation has the potential to blow back, and do exactly the opposite - make the patient UNcomfortable... with the treatment that follows the question if you don't 'answer right', with the atmosphere in the room... with the knock-on implications.

Better to avoid the whole issue.

You can not infer by the patient saying no that they are not Chrisitan, not religious, or anything else.


And the patient didn't actually complain that THEY had a problem - they said someone ELSE might.

See what I mean the patient didn't even feel offended. PC to the extreme. The organization is tilting at a perceived "wrong doing"



Which has exactly the opposite effect if someone doesn't want to discuss religion, or has different convictions. It doesn't even have to be about christians-v's-non... if you believe that religion is ONLY a deeply personal relationship with god, you MIGHT consider the nurse to be acting very inappropriately.


Then you have the right to say no. Without explanation! You should not be pressured.


It's 'not the same' because it's loaded. It's potentially explosive if you don't have the same answers as one another.

It's not the same because 'offering to talk about sports' isn't going to lead on to three quarters of an hour of discussion of why you need to let Tottenham Hotspur into your heart.


Depends on the talker. I would rather have them pray for me. On a wise guy note you could say yes but please do so in silence, please.

How about them Knicks...Yankees...Giants. I would not be offended though.


Not at all.

Is it okay with you if I make blood sacrifices to Satan in your name?

I would say please don't make human sacrifices to anyone. A simple no thanks would do though.

This thread makes me feel like praying for you all.