NationStates Jolt Archive

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/29/lkl.haggard.excerpts/index.html?iref=newssearch)

I didn't watch this, but apparently they talked about his scandal and how he wrestled with homosexuality, and how it affected his family and his congregation. I feel sorry for his wife, their entire relationship and marriage built on a lie.

Today, I'm 100 percent satisfied with my relationship with my wife and I have no compelling things in my life toward others.

Who wants to bet that this statement is false?

Reading this though, I love how Larry King keeps pushing the issues, he pushed Haggard to tell us his sexuality, and he said that he'll ask his wife whether or not things would've been different if it was a woman. You gotta admit though, Ted and Gayle hold fast to their fundamentalist beliefs.

Thoughts?

i dont understand why they think i (or anyone not in their family) should give a damn whether or not ted is really gay or how good their sex life is.

is he trying to get his old congregation back?

i dont understand why they think i (or anyone not in their family) should give a damn whether or not ted is really gay or how good their sex life is.

is he trying to get his old congregation back?

Seems to me he's trying to push that Faith can cure anything, even Homosexuality!

Honestly, if Haggard had any decency in him, he'd divorce his wife and let her have custody of the kids.

Seems to me he's trying to push that Faith can cure anything, even Homosexuality!

Honestly, if Haggard had any decency in him, he'd divorce his wife and let her have custody of the kids.
they may be happy with the family they have. *shrug* if he's not interested in being openly gay and if she can deal with a husband who is driven to have the occasional cock, who are we to say that its wrong?

i dont understand why they think i (or anyone not in their family) should give a damn whether or not ted is really gay or how good their sex life is.

is he trying to get his old congregation back?

He's afraid.

they may be happy with the family they have. *shrug* if he's not interested in being openly gay and if she can deal with a husband who is driven to have the occasional cock, who are we to say that its wrong?

Either that or Gayle believes that a woman should stick by their man no matter what, which is the kind of mentality that my grandmother grew up with, even when her husband knocked her from room to room.

The kids are going to be complete nutjobs. Honestly, the whole thing is like a real life Moral Orel. On the surface you have the perfect WASP family, but when you see them behind closed doors, the father is a drunken closeted case, the mother hates the father and goes into deep denial of who he really is, and the children are either willfully ignorant, or they're manipulated into taking sides.

At the end, everyone is miserable and because the children grew up in such an environment, when they have children, the cycle continues!

Either that or Gayle believes that a woman should stick by their man no matter what, which is the kind of mentality that my grandmother grew up with, even when her husband knocked her from room to room.

The kids are going to be complete nutjobs. Honestly, the whole thing is like a real life Moral Orel. On the surface you have the perfect WASP family, but when you see them behind closed doors, the father is a drunken closeted case, the mother hates the father and goes into deep denial of who he really is, and the children are either willfully ignorant, or they're manipulated into taking sides.

At the end, everyone is miserable and because the children grew up in such an environment, when they have children, the cycle continues!
well yeah. one can only imagine (inadequately) what that kind of "daddy is trying to stuff himself back into the closet" family does to children. and its not like he is likely to get councilling to help them all deal with it.

He's afraid.
afraid of what? hasnt the worst already happened?

well yeah. one can only imagine (inadequately) what that kind of "daddy is trying to stuff himself back into the closet" family does to children. and its not like he is likely to get councilling to help them all deal with it.

See, I just never understood why people stay in bad relationships and marriages. Of course I have friends who say that it's because of love, well I may be a cynic when it comes to love, but I do not believe that love conquers all, and I believe that sometimes people stay together for reasons other than love.

If you have a husband, and if he confessed to having gay sex behind your back, I doubt your first reaction is going to be "Oh it's ok honey, I still love you and I'm going to help you!" Either you're really in love with the person, or you're willfully ignorant. Guess which one is more likely.

afraid of what? hasnt the worst already happened?

Depends what your definition or 'worst' is. He's afraid of being attracted to men. More to the point, he's afraid of being seen by the public as being attracted to men.

See, I just never understood why people stay in bad relationships and marriages. Of course I have friends who say that it's because of love, well I may be a cynic when it comes to love, but I do not believe that love conquers all, and I believe that sometimes people stay together for reasons other than love.

If you have a husband, and if he confessed to having gay sex behind your back, I doubt your first reaction is going to be "Oh it's ok honey, I still love you and I'm going to help you!" Either you're really in love with the person, or you're willfully ignorant. Guess which one is more likely.
thats a pretty strong will when its out in the open and everyone in the world knows that your husband had sex not just with a man but a male prostitute *shudder*

i suppose i might not leave him for some family or career reason but i sure wouldnt ever have sex with him again.

Depends what your definition or 'worst' is. He's afraid of being attracted to men. More to the point, he's afraid of being seen by the public as being attracted to men.
youre probably right.

but, setting aside the fear that his cure didnt take, everyone already knows that he wants cock. its not just "ooooo that guy is hot" its "i gotta have dick and i gotta have it now" (since he paid someone for it).

maybe he thinks he really can convince the world that he is past all that.

poor thing.

Depends what your definition or 'worst' is. He's afraid of being attracted to men. More to the point, he's afraid of being seen by the public as being attracted to men.

Yea, being seen as a guy who is; hypocritical, liar, deceitful, cheater, and a closet case is sooo much better. :p

thats a pretty strong will when its out in the open and everyone in the world knows that your husband had sex not just with a man but a male prostitute *shudder*

Yea, which is why I think there's more going on behind closed door. I doubt even the most devoted wife/husband can muster up this kind of willful ignorance. She's either staying with him because the picture of a "Christian wife" standing by her man will help him rebuild his empire, and/or after he rebuilds his empire, she's going to quietly divorce him and take half of his stuff.

i suppose i might not leave him for some family or career reason but i sure wouldnt ever have sex with him again.

Meh, divorce him and take half of his stuff. *nods*

Yea, being seen as a guy who is; hypocritical, liar, deceitful, cheater, and a closet case is sooo much better. :p



Yea, which is why I think there's more going on behind closed door. I doubt even the most devoted wife/husband can muster up this kind of willful ignorance. She's either staying with him because the picture of a "Christian wife" standing by her man will help him rebuild his empire, and/or after he rebuilds his empire, she's going to quietly divorce him and take half of his stuff.



Meh, divorce him and take half of his stuff. *nods*
if she works it right she can get 75%

if she works it right she can get 75%

True. I don't usually agree with "Family Courts" screwing over the father/husband, but in this case I am for it.

youre probably right.

but, setting aside the fear that his cure didnt take, everyone already knows that he wants cock. its not just "ooooo that guy is hot" its "i gotta have dick and i gotta have it now" (since he paid someone for it).

maybe he thinks he really can convince the world that he is past all that.

poor thing.

Yea, being seen as a guy who is; hypocritical, liar, deceitful, cheater, and a closet case is sooo much better. :p

I'm reminded of something from a Daily Show story;

You can't hide from gay. You might think you're safe with your wife and kids and your house in the country, but gay can see through walls!

I'm reminded of something from a Daily Show story;

You can't hide from gay. You might think you're safe with your wife and kids and your house in the country, but gay can see through walls!
lol

if only ted would accept that simple truth.

Thoughts?He's an asshole.
Somehow, though, i find that statement somewhat pale. Perhaps even redundant.

I do somewhat sympathise with him. His path was chosen by his background and upbringing, he's a product of the fear of God, the fear of being shunned by the community he associates with. He's trapped, essentially. He has a wife and five kids and it's clear he doesn't want to destroy that, especially when the wife and kids would shun him if he accepted his true nature.

i dont understand why they think i (or anyone not in their family) should give a damn whether or not ted is really gay or how good their sex life is.

is he trying to get his old congregation back?

Self interest tells Ted that he's got to get back in the preaching game, and make a few squid. Self loathing means Ted will keep the closet door bolted on both sides when doing so. Given the massive inner conflict, and the pressure of the public profile, this will probably end badly for Ted, and quite possibly prematurely.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/29/lkl.haggard.excerpts/index.html?iref=newssearch)

I didn't watch this, but apparently they talked about his scandal and how he wrestled with homosexuality, and how it affected his family and his congregation. I feel sorry for his wife, their entire relationship and marriage built on a lie.

Who wants to bet that this statement is false?

Most likely false, but not nessissarily a lie. It could just as easily be wishful self-delusion. At least, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this point.

Reading this though, I love how Larry King keeps pushing the issues, he pushed Haggard to tell us his sexuality, and he said that he'll ask his wife whether or not things would've been different if it was a woman. You gotta admit though, Ted and Gayle hold fast to their fundamentalist beliefs.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that my respect for Larry King has gone through the roof. I used to see him as a rather boring old man, who wasted far too much time on celebrities of low worth or intelligence, asked really obvious and insensitive questions (like how do you feel about your family's murder?, that kind of thing), and never really pushed the guests.

Recently however, I've been surprised to find myself seeing Larry King show some balls. He definitely seems to push his guests to answer tough questions, which I started to notice during the election season. I guess if their was one time a journalist or talk show host needed to be able to cut through BS it was then.;)

He does look as if the shirt is holding him together though....If he appeared as a head in a tank, it wouldn't suprise me.

True. I don't usually agree with "Family Courts" screwing over the father/husband, but in this case I am for it.

Really? Courts do that?

Mom loses custody for alienating dad (http://www.thestar.com/article/576619)

Ah, the grace and beauty that is common law. This lovely precedent demonstrates that men don't get short-changed.

However, in response to the thread... Haggard reaps what he sows. He made his bed, now he must sleep in it. Nothing he says can change the facts.

I'm reminded of something from a Daily Show story;

You can't hide from gay. You might think you're safe with your wife and kids and your house in the country, but gay can see through walls!

Gay can't see through walls, just closet doors.

Ted Haggard: It pleasantly surprised me. I fully expected to lose her. I kept my struggle secret from her for decades because I so wanted to please her. I so wanted to be the perfect husband for her.

Mistake #1. If you are wrestling w/ sin in your life, find someone w/ whom you can discuss it.

Mistake #2.
Haggard: I -- especially in the last two years, I've gone through quite a struggle. Prior to the scandal, just I thought if I were more spiritual, I would be OK. So I would pray and fast. I'd read my Bible.

Notice "repent" isn't among the things listed... praying doesn't mean 'repenting.' Fasting doesn't mean "repenting".

Fundamental problem w/ the church - lack of repentance until after a person gets caught sinning. (yes, I'm a Christian).

If he'd started dealing w/ it from a stance of repentance out of the gate, he probably would never have fallen to the physical sin.

The biggest shame is not that he sinned, or how he sinned. It's that he didn't know how to NOT sin in the first place - and he was still in a place of spiritual leadership towards others. That's the worst aspect of the situation, imho.

Mistake #1. If you are wrestling w/ sin in your life, find someone w/ whom you can discuss it.

Mistake #2.


Notice "repent" isn't among the things listed... praying doesn't mean 'repenting.' Fasting doesn't mean "repenting".

Fundamental problem w/ the church - lack of repentance until after a person gets caught sinning. (yes, I'm a Christian).

If he'd started dealing w/ it from a stance of repentance out of the gate, he probably would never have fallen to the physical sin.

The biggest shame is not that he sinned, or how he sinned. It's that he didn't know how to NOT sin in the first place - and he was still in a place of spiritual leadership towards others. That's the worst aspect of the situation, imho.

I disagree, I think the fundamental problem is that he was born and raised into a religion that taught him that acting on those desires is sinful.

You say he should have learned to repent for his sins. I say he should have learned long ago that there's nothing sinful about what he did. Except maybe the adultry part, but if he was from a community that was more accepting of him, that probably wouldn't have happened.

I disagree, I think the fundamental problem is that he was born and raised into a religion that taught him that acting on those desires is sinful.

You say he should have learned to repent for his sins. I say he should have learned long ago that there's nothing sinful about what he did. Except maybe the adultry part, but if he was from a community that was more accepting of him, that probably wouldn't have happened.

If they'd just stone the fags to death like the bible says to, then it wouldn't be a problem.

I disagree, I think the fundamental problem is that he was born and raised into a religion that taught him that acting on those desires is sinful.

You say he should have learned to repent for his sins. I say he should have learned long ago that there's nothing sinful about what he did. Except maybe the adultry part, but if he was from a community that was more accepting of him, that probably wouldn't have happened.

Respectfully: who are you to say what religion is right and wrong??

Isn't it his choice what he believes?? And if he believes it, his problem started w/ not applying the instructions of his faith accurately.

If you don't agree w/ him, that's your choice. However, Haggard stated he believes a certain way - you don't have any right to condemn that. My point is that Haggard failed in apply the basic tenants of his faith - confession of sin, repentance, repeat as necessary.

If they'd just stone the fags to death like the bible says to, then it wouldn't be a problem.

If people just understood sin, there wouldn't be a problem!! :tongue:

If people just understood sin, there wouldn't be a problem!! :tongue:

Somehow I had a feeling you'd like that statement. After all he wouldn't of sinned if not for society's tolerance of queers and prostitutes.

If people just understood sin, there wouldn't be a problem!! :tongue:

I agree completely. But I suspect the sin isn't what people think it is. ;)

Somehow I had a feeling you'd like that statement. After all he wouldn't of sinned if not for society's tolerance of queers and prostitutes.

If you think my statement was 'support' of stoning people, then you really need to go back to English/Grammar class and learn how to understand words a little better.

I said what I said - if people understood what sin really is, and does, this world would be a dramatically different place. If you want to try to turn that into a prejudicial slam against certain people, knock yourself out... please, feel free to do so.

I agree completely. But I suspect the sin isn't what people think it is. ;)

it isn't.

Respectfully: who are you to say what religion is right and wrong??

Isn't it his choice what he believes?? And if he believes it, his problem started w/ not applying the instructions of his faith accurately.

If you don't agree w/ him, that's your choice. However, Haggard stated he believes a certain way - you don't have any right to condemn that. My point is that Haggard failed in apply the basic tenants of his faith - confession of sin, repentance, repeat as necessary.

It's his choice, but we're still free to mock his (and presumably your) silly, irrational superstitions.

It's his choice, but we're still free to mock his (and presumably your) silly, irrational superstitions.


:D just be nice when you do it!!!

Respectfully: who are you to say what religion is right and wrong??

Isn't it his choice what he believes?? And if he believes it, his problem started w/ not applying the instructions of his faith accurately.

If you don't agree w/ him, that's your choice. However, Haggard stated he believes a certain way - you don't have any right to condemn that. My point is that Haggard failed in apply the basic tenants of his faith - confession of sin, repentance, repeat as necessary.
are you a baptist? maybe baptists dont DO the "repentance" thing?

i was looking through some articles about him with quotes from him and the word "repent" wasnt there. he asked certain people for forgiveness but he didnt say he repented.

are you a baptist? maybe baptists dont DO the "repentance" thing?

i was looking through some articles about him with quotes from him and the word "repent" wasnt there. he asked certain people for forgiveness but he didnt say he repented.
ohhh i looked up his former church.... its non-denominational.... that speaks volumes to me.

are you a baptist? maybe baptists dont DO the "repentance" thing?

i was looking through some articles about him with quotes from him and the word "repent" wasnt there. he asked certain people for forgiveness but he didnt say he repented.



ohhh i looked up his former church.... its non-denominational.... that speaks volumes to me.

I rest my case! (btw - no, not baptist. but the 'basic' tenants of what I believe have, at their core, "confess, repent, repeat as necessary")

I rest my case! (btw - no, not baptist. but the 'basic' tenants of what I believe have, at their core, "confess, repent, repeat as necessary")
yeah. not that im automatically "against" non-denominational churches but it does indicate a lack of ......theological oversight.... so that it can (and probably was) "the church of ted".

yeah. not that im automatically "against" non-denominational churches but it does indicate a lack of ......theological oversight.... .

wow - was that diplomatic!!! A brutal harsh truth said in a gentle and non-argumentative way!

do you give lessons???? Sign me up! (btw - sincere compliment - your statement was brilliantly worded!)

wow - was that diplomatic!!! A brutal harsh truth said in a gentle and non-argumentative way!

do you give lessons???? Sign me up! (btw - sincere compliment - your statement was brilliantly worded!)
thank you.

religion bashing is very popular here but i dont like to suggest that someone else's theology is crap. especially when i dont know its details.

thank you.

religion bashing is very popular here but i dont like to suggest that someone else's theology is crap. especially when i dont know its details.

I don't have a problem w/ someone taking general pot shots at my faith - first, given that they don't have a clue as to what my relationship w/ God actually is, their pot shots are pretty empty.

Second, sometimes, in a general way, their criticism of Christianity is (unfortunately) accurate.

But it'd be nice if people wouldn't tell me I'm wrong. They don't have the facts, so logically speaking, they're totally wonked to make such an authoritative statement. You can think I'm wrong, you can believe I'm wrong, but you don't know I'm wrong and cannot make such an assessment, unless you have ALL the facts.

So - play nice!!

Respectfully: who are you to say what religion is right and wrong??

Someone with an opinion.

Isn't it his choice what he believes?? And if he believes it, his problem started w/ not applying the instructions of his faith accurately.

I disagree. I believe his problem started with attempting to apply instructions that don't work. Yes, it's his faith. Yes, he has a right to believe that. However believing in something doesn't make it true. Believing you can "pray the gay away" doesn't make it true.

If you don't agree w/ him, that's your choice. However, Haggard stated he believes a certain way - you don't have any right to condemn that.

Of course I do.

My point is that Haggard failed in apply the basic tenants of his faith - confession of sin, repentance, repeat as necessary.

MY point is that he may as well have, but the tenants of his faith won't make a damned bit of difference, and won't make him straight.

No matter how much he tries to believe otherwise.

I said what I said - if people understood what sin really is, and does, this world would be a dramatically different place. If you want to try to turn that into a prejudicial slam against certain people, knock yourself out... please, feel free to do so.

Wait, let me see if I get this right. Apparently I am not allowed to "say what religion is right and wrong" but you feel confident enough to understand "what sin really is"?

Besides, we all know Sin is the father of a dream child corrupted by Yu Yevon.

Someone with an opinion.



I disagree. I believe his problem started with attempting to apply instructions that don't work. Yes, it's his faith. Yes, he has a right to believe that. However believing in something doesn't make it true. Believing you can "pray the gay away" doesn't make it true.



Of course I do.



MY point is that he may as well have, but the tenants of his faith won't make a damned bit of difference, and won't make him straight.

No matter how much he tries to believe otherwise.
closely following the tenets of his religion with the proper application of prayer, forgiveness and repentence, can help keep him from sinning again.

it wont make him "straight" but it can keep him from having gay sex again.

that is pretty much all he can expect. he's admitted to having gay thoughts even now after he has been "cured of the gay". religion cant change his basic nature but it can help him resist the temptation to act on it.

I'm surprised no one's posted this yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmHC75FDqQ

:D

And I agree, he's reaping what he's sown. Especially since there was apparently another gay sex scandal that his church at the time covered up with a pay off.
New Scandal. (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/central/view/2009_01_26_New_Life_tried_to_avoid_latest_Ted_Haggard_sex_scandal/srvc=home&position=recent)

closely following the tenets of his religion with the proper application of prayer, forgiveness and repentence, can help keep him from sinning again.

it wont make him "straight" but it can keep him from having gay sex again.

that is pretty much all he can expect. he's admitted to having gay thoughts even now after he has been "cured of the gay". religion cant change his basic nature but it can help him resist the temptation to act on it.

Well, depends. If his definition of sin is the act, then sure, willpower can make you not have sex. So can cutting off your genitals. I'd advise neither. If, however, he belongs to the "the thought is as bad as the act" group, then no, it won't do a damned thing.

More to point, while it can prevent him from ACTING on it, I'd think that does far more harm than good.

Well, depends. If his definition of sin is the act, then sure, willpower can make you not have sex. So can cutting off your genitals. I'd advise neither. If, however, he belongs to the "the thought is as bad as the act" group, then no, it won't do a damned thing.

More to point, while it can prevent him from ACTING on it, I'd think that does far more harm than good.

So you're saying that if only he hadn't been a Christian minister, faking being a heterosexual, that a life of smoking meth and fucking young anonymous dudes would be a great lifestyle choice.

Well, depends. If his definition of sin is the act, then sure, willpower can make you not have sex. So can cutting off your genitals. I'd advise neither. If, however, he belongs to the "the thought is as bad as the act" group, then no, it won't do a damned thing.

More to point, while it can prevent him from ACTING on it, I'd think that does far more harm than good.
i dont think he is of the "thinking it is as bad as doing it" group. (no matter that jesus said it was)

while *I* would agree that it isnt wise, its his choice to make.

So you're saying that if only he hadn't been a Christian minister, faking being a heterosexual, that a life of smoking meth and fucking young anonymous dudes would be a great lifestyle choice.

I'm saying that if he had grown up in an upbringing that was accepting of his orientation, he wouldn't have to resort to having gay sex with anoymous meth dealers in hotel rooms.

I'm saying that if he had grown up in an upbringing that was accepting of his orientation, he wouldn't have to resort to having gay sex with anoymous meth dealers in hotel rooms.

I don't believe that for a second. I've met hetero and homosexuals who are meth heads, and many of them were brought up in great and loving environments.

Once you're a meth head (and anyone can become one), it doesn't matter one little bit what your upbringing was like.

closely following the tenets of his religion with the proper application of prayer, forgiveness and repentence, can help keep him from sinning again.

it wont make him "straight" but it can keep him from having gay sex again.
Ultimately, that's the best any of us can do - choose to be self-controlled and make wise choices


that is pretty much all he can expect. he's admitted to having gay thoughts even now after he has been "cured of the gay". religion cant change his basic nature but it can help him resist the temptation to act on it.

actually - religion can't, but the whole point of redemption is to change our natures. that's ultimately the goal of the act of Christ - but again, this is something that the church doesn't teach effectively. Which would explain why, after so many years, he still fell to the temptation.

Or set Ted Haggard up on a blind date with Larry Craig. :p

I wonder when Ted will realize that just because he never has gay sex again, doesn't make him straight. He's still gay. I mean I may never have straight sex again, but that doesn't mean I'm no longer a heterosexual. It just means I never had sex again.

I wonder when Ted will realize that just because he never has gay sex again, doesn't make him straight. He's still gay. I mean I may never have straight sex again, but that doesn't mean I'm no longer a heterosexual. It just means I never had sex again.
im pretty sure that mr haggard doesnt think that he is gay. he is a married man with 5 kids who yearns for a little cock now and then.

kinda like how my uncle (who lived in the same town as we did and who i never saw sober) wasnt an alcoholic because he held down a steady job and never missed a day of work.

actually - religion can't, but the whole point of redemption is to change our natures. that's ultimately the goal of the act of Christ - but again, this is something that the church doesn't teach effectively. Which would explain why, after so many years, he still fell to the temptation.

So you can be "redeemed" of homosexuality?

In what other ways can redemption change our nature? If I seek redemption for being right-handed, will I be cured?

im pretty sure that mr haggard doesnt think that he is gay. he is a married man with 5 kids who yearns for a little cock now and then.

kinda like how my uncle (who lived in the same town as we did and who i never saw sober) wasnt an alcoholic because he held down a steady job and never missed a day of work.

Ahh denial, it's a wonderful thing.

Ahh denial, it's a wonderful thing.

Technically, couldn't he be bi?

Technically, couldn't he be bi?

Yes. But if he needs penis so much he's willing to lay down money for it and risk his career, family and reputation, dude's probably gay.

And anyway, he's in denial about being "queer", really. Bi is still queer (or as my ex used to call me, "half gay!")

I'm saying that if he had grown up in an upbringing that was accepting of his orientation, he wouldn't have to resort to having gay sex with anoymous meth dealers in hotel rooms.

O now to be fair, it seems that he was having non-anonymous gay sex with some of his flock too........As per the article & paper linked by Deus Malum above...

Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn’t a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.
link (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/central/view/2009_01_24_Disgraced_pastor_faces_more_gay_sex_accusations/)

The latest Haggard scandal began Thursday when Boyd was notified by a Colorado Springs TV station that a church volunteer was going public with allegations against Haggard. On Friday, Boyd sent out an e-mail to inform thousands of New Life members that the church knew about the allegations and gave cash to the man, whom the church won’t name because of confidentiality rules observed by preachers.

Boyd also said in the e-mail that over the past two years several others at the church have come forward to report "inappropriate behavior" by Haggard prior to his firing for sex with a gay Denver prostitute.

Boyd didn’t elaborate Saturday on whether the accusations from those people included sex, or if the relationship with the young volunteer was consensual.

Shortly after Haggard was fired from New Life, church officials learned of the allegations from the volunteer, who was in his early 20s at the time of the relationship.

The man got months of counseling.

link (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/central/view.bg?&articleid=1147827&format=&page=1&listingType=natce#articleFull)

"months of counseling" ....'Teh Ghey is Wrongness...men & teh Cock iz ghey...butsecks=hell 4 u and other ghey 2......'
That'll help him be well adjusted allright.......

What about the whole concept that if God loves you he doesn't care who the hell your sexing up; and if he does he's not really worth being worshiped anyway.

What about the whole concept that if God loves you he doesn't care who the hell your sexing up; and if he does he's not really worth being worshiped anyway.

I don't know what amuses me more: That there are people who don't believe that it's important to God for people to be happy or that people don't believe that God has a sense of humor.

How could a perfect being not have a sense of humor? :confused:

I don't know what amuses me more: That there are people who don't believe that it's important to God for people to be happy or that people don't believe that God has a sense of humor.

How could a perfect being not have a sense of humor? :confused:

He does, ever seen children?

He does, ever seen children?

They are quite entertaining if you refuse to take them too seriously...and as long as they aren't armed.

So you can be "redeemed" of homosexuality?

In what other ways can redemption change our nature? If I seek redemption for being right-handed, will I be cured?

when did being "right handed" become a sin?

People put WAY too much divergent "weight" on a sin - this one is worse than another. Homosexuality is worse than lying. Well, news flash - not to God. sin is sin, it all hurts our relationship, both individually and collectively, to our relationships with one another and w/ God.

So - you know what? God says homosexuality is sin. So is greed. So is murder. So is stealing, and lying, and incest, and child abuse and...

And the point of the Cross is to redeem the nature that causes us to sin - change the nature that provokes us to sin, to one wherein we do not want to, and understand why sin is wrong.

Seems to me he's trying to push that Faith can cure anything, even Homosexuality!...

Except that pesky meth addiction.

Except that pesky meth addiction.

pffft. "Faith" can't "heal" something that isn't an illness, at all. Homosexuality - like, oh, lying and drunkenness - are sins, not illnesses. The idea that "faith" can "heal homosexuality" is beyond a misrepresentation of what Scripture says.

pffft. "Faith" can't "heal" something that isn't an illness, at all. Homosexuality - like, oh, lying and drunkenness - are sins, not illnesses. The idea that "faith" can "heal homosexuality" is beyond a misrepresentation of what Scripture says.
Scriptural certitude is fun. :D

It's nice that you guys are so sure of your rules. That must mean you know exactly what to do with Ted Haggard. On the other hand, your rules have absolutely no applicability to anyone who is not a member of your religion, so I guess that tells the rest of us what to do with Ted Haggard's calls for laws to discriminate against gays.

Scriptural certitude is fun. :D

It's nice that you guys are so sure of your rules. That must mean you know exactly what to do with Ted Haggard. .

Honey, you might be rather surprised what I'd do to him. For starters? Make him make a public apology to the homosexual community - for being a hypocrite.

What he did was wrong- he apologized to the Christian community, to which he lied. But he didn't apologize to the homosexual community, which he demonized and accused hypocritically. He owes them an apology too.

On the other hand, your rules have absolutely no applicability to anyone who is not a member of your religion, Technically, according to Scripture, that's true - the rules were intended first and foremost to be applied to the people to whom God gave them. The ideal is for those people to live their lives in such a way that other people would want to be a part of that community.

Honey, you might be rather surprised what I'd do to him. For starters? Make him make a public apology to the homosexual community - for being a hypocrite.

What he did was wrong- he apologized to the Christian community, to which he lied. But he didn't apologize to the homosexual community, which he demonized and accused hypocritically. He owes them an apology too.

Technically, according to Scripture, that's true - the rules were intended first and foremost to be applied to the people to whom God gave them. The ideal is for those people to live their lives in such a way that other people would want to be a part of that community.
That is the foundation underlying my point. See, I don't really care if Ted Haggard is a self-hating, closeted gay man struggling with a life that is a lie. That's his problem and I wish him luck with it. I also don't care much about how he broke faith with his fellow Christians, especially the members of his mega-congregation. That is their internal church sin-matter which they will sort out for themselves.

But what I blame Haggard for most is his attempts to force the beliefs that he promoted on other people, via his political connections and public pulpit. The fact that he was hypocritically violating those beliefs even as he called for condemnation of people who didn't even profess to live by them only adds insult to injury. I can understand how hard life must be for Haggard, but I really don't care. I have no sympathy for him. If he were a man of honesty and honor, he would never have sought the power within his religion that he did, knowing his so-called "sin." Let him reap what he sowed.

I remember the documentary "Jesus Camp" about that group for kids to learn fundamentalist christian dogma. I believe it was filmed and released before Haggard was ...uh...unveiled.

And in one scene, they meet Ted. And when they tell him who they are, what they're doing, he says, and I quote, "Fabulous."

That's what he said. He said "Fabulous."

And he didn't say it the way R. Lee Ermey would say it after putting a round of 7.62 Nato through the brain cavity of an enemy combatant at 500 meters while simultaneously popping his champagne cork into the mouth of a practiced yellow lass on her knees in front of him.

He said it the way a guy would say it while getting a great photo of a cliff diver at Fire Islands resort while getting a backrub from his life partner before they head off to have some vegetarian shish kabobs and then have some mojitoes and talk about leaving New York.