NationStates Jolt Archive

So how should the military be structured in a perfect society? Should one even exist?

Populated entirely by lolcats.

Well, Me personally, Id have my standing Military very small, possibly around 100000 or so....

But a large National Guard for times of Emergency...Maybe a clause keeping from "Preemptive Strikes"


Prettymuch the US Military of 1912 with a Modern Arsenal of Weapons...

Populated entirely by lolcats.

I can haz AR-15?

a perfect society would have no enemies though so Israel's policy wouldn't really be justified *has daydream about being able to carry a gun around in public and claim whoever I shot was a dirty terrorist*

Well, Me personally, Id have my standing Military very small, possibly around 100000 or so....

But a large National Guard for times of Emergency...Maybe a clause keeping from "Preemptive Strikes"


Prettymuch the US Military of 1912 with a Modern Arsenal of Weapons...

The only problem is that a smaller military would not be conducive to modern weaponry. You need to manufacture so much of something to make research worthwhile.

The only problem is that a smaller military would not be conducive to modern weaponry. You need to manufacture so much of something to make research worthwhile.

Oh, I would have a large Military, but it wouldnt be Active Duty, and therefore would discourage the use of Preemptive Strikes...

In a perfect society, they wouldn't even need guns....

Just because the nation you live in is perfect doesn't mean that someone doesn't want what you have and are willing to take it through force. No military is akin to no police, a pipe dream, still a good dream.

Then it's not a perfect society. A perfect society would be a global society of peace, without war, weapons, or the need for either.

The military in a perfect nation would be so huge and wildly overarmed that it would never have to be put to use.

In a perfect world, there are no militaries.

Revise it too, how would your Ideal Military situation be set up in the Real World....

The military in a perfect nation would be so huge and wildly overarmed that it would never have to be put to use.

In a perfect world, there are no militaries.

lolwut?

Why would a perfect nation need a massively bloated imperfect component? Those are logically contradictory.

lolwut?

Why would a perfect nation need a massively bloated imperfect component? Those are logically contradictory.

Unless you want war, that's how its gotta be. That's on the assumption that's the only "perfect" nation in this world.

Just because the nation you live in is perfect doesn't mean that someone doesn't want what you have and are willing to take it through force. No military is akin to no police, a pipe dream, still a good dream.

*shrug* just pump resources into the enemy of your enemy then and have them do all the work...

barring that I'd say it depends on the nations size like for instance Britain keeps a peacetime number of 100,000 because well:

1) we can barely afford that as it is
2) we live on an island so in the event of invasion we just have to wait for the navy to get out of bed
3) the UK is a highly professional army that is designed to mow down lines of conscript continentals

3) the UK is a highly professional army that is designed to mow down lines of conscript continentals

Well, long as we dont Hide in the trees anyway :p

If it was truly perfect, they'd be able to handle any problem quite well -- whether from that nation or other nations -- without guns.

If it was truly perfect, they'd be able to handle any problem quite well -- whether from that nation or other nations -- without guns.

That's the benefit of lolcat infantry. They can cute the enemy to death.

Their's no such thing as a perfect army, but my ideal would likely be something like this:

Heavy emphisis on defense: border security, anti-missile defenses, patrol ships and air craft.

Rules against actions on foreign soil except for humanitarian intervention (this provision needs to be carefully worded), and in response to an actual or immanent attack.

Large numbers of ground troops for gurilla/counter-insurgency type warfare, a bit lighter on the heavy weapons.

That's the benefit of lolcat infantry. They can cute the enemy to death.

But it'd affect the civilians too!

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/funny-pictures-kitten-makes-head-explode-cuteness.jpg

But it'd affect the civilians too!
*pic*

Prepare to be sued for causing Exploding Head Syndrome :mad:

Well, long as we dont Hide in the trees anyway :p

I'd like to see you get that past health and safety in the workplace :wink:

If it was truly perfect, they'd be able to handle any problem quite well -- whether from that nation or other nations -- without guns.

control the spice control the universe?

Heavy emphisis on defense: border security, anti-missile defenses, patrol ships and air craft.

yes lets just build a Maginot line...oh wait

Large numbers of ground troops for gurilla/counter-insurgency type warfare,

why would a professional army want to resort to guerrilla methods?

a bit lighter on the heavy weapons.

heavy weapons are always good for morale

In a perfect nation there would be no continued need for a military, because it would have already taken over the entire planet.

So, there would just be whatever force is needed to make people continue to acknowledge its perfectness, instead of foolishly trying to secede.

Plato's Republic was his version of the Perfect Nation. So in a way I mean perfect to represent your ideal nation. If your ideal nation has taken over the world, then perhaps you have a military insurrection to deal with when you try to disband them;)

Volunteer militia units

yes lets just build a Maginot line...oh wait

One, the Maginot line failed because it had a gap in it. If they'd completely closed in France it probably would have worked.;)

Second, gloatingly trotting out World War 2 analogies like they're the ultimate trump card is tired. Its like how every time a Conservative sees diplomacy with a country they don't like, they whine about apeasment. I'm not saying that your behaving like that, but I think you should be careful about these kinds of analogies.

Read my post. Did I ever, anywhere, imply that I was talking about just a wall and/or some other static defense? No, I was talking about things like Coast Guard patrols, border guards, etc.

why would a professional army want to resort to guerrilla methods?

I was talking about needing large numbers of troops to combat a guerrilla army. Like how people say Bush went into Iraq with far too few troops.

heavy weapons are always good for morale

Is the military supposed to be in the business of security, or compensating for the size of GI Joe's you-know-what?;)

Some heavy weapons have legitimate uses. But I suspect that given the nature of modern warfare, a focus on large numbers of infantry and post-war reconstruction efforts is likely to be more valuable for a powerful first-world military than a dozen aircraft carriers and 10,000 tanks.

It depends or not whether or not my perfect nation was under threat, and it's geographic context.

I would split my forces (roughly) into the following key aspects:

* Border protection, with small attached air and coastal protection arm.
* Scouts, ensuring internal security in remote areas and as a second layer of protection against infiltration. Also with light air and water recon arm. Collects data for military intelligence.
* Army - Bulk forces to defend nation against attack or secure interests overseas. Within the army would be specialist Guerrilla and Urban warfare, and engineering/logistics/disaster relief divisions, the latter aiding state projects with expertise, equipment and manpower and also responding to disasters.
* Navy - Protecting remote shipping lanes and transporting army and air forces to conflict areas. With it's own air support arm.
* Air Force - Probably the most important of the main forces to my nation. Protects air space, conducts patrols of trade routes and surveys the internal territory for any potential problems as a more far ranging version of the scouts, and collecting data for military intelligence. They would also include a dedicated 9and significant).
* Military Intelligence - Obvious. Keeps track on internal and external threats including dedicated languages division.
* Elite forces - Both last line of defence and also for quiet foreign work, i.e. assassination, sabotage, infiltration, counter-intelligence etc. Closely integrated with the above. The elite also has it's own Urban combat division as well as bodyguards.


Nature: Specialised and highly trained air and naval forces. Elite ground forces backed up by larger regular army which can be transported by air where needed.

key capabilities:
* Fully secured border regions, as as delineated border or in desert/arctic areas ability to deny undefined border regions to foreign entities and to ensure they fall under the military dominance of my nation.
* Self sufficient in armaments, supplies, equipment (including aircraft and sea and river-craft, ammunition, parts, R&D and reverse engineering captured equipment.
* Emphasis on trustworthy, reliable, tired and tested technology that is completely understood by my forces. There is no point in having the latest wonder-jet if it breaks and we can't fix it, or if we can't operate it efficiently.
*Self sufficient satellite launch and ground control facilities.
* Medium range missiles able to secure the region (~3,000km).
* Inter-operability of my forces with others, leading to an alliance where possible.

Their task:
To repel any foreign invaders, to ensure lines of communication with friendly countries are not compromised, to ensure overseas interests, assist allies and protect the ruler and his government assets, people, terretory and sovereignty from internal or external enemies, and support government projects and disaster relief work at home and abroad.

Volunteer militia units

*watches as the nation quickly succumbs to an invasion during the world cup final*

Read my post. Did I ever, anywhere, imply that I was talking about just a wall and/or some other static defense? No, I was talking about things like Coast Guard patrols, border guards, etc.

what I'm getting at is a strong offense is the best defense at least in terms of seizing the initiative

Is the military supposed to be in the business of security, or compensating for the size of GI Joe's you-know-what?;)

if you want me seizing any positions I'm going to want the biggest gun available keeping enemy heads down which not only keeps casualties low but also ruins the baddies day

Some heavy weapons have legitimate uses. But I suspect that given the nature of modern warfare, a focus on large numbers of infantry and post-war reconstruction efforts is likely to be more valuable for a powerful first-world military than a dozen aircraft carriers and 10,000 tanks.

you have to actually win the battles first though (not that I'd ever question the power of infantry) and then attack strongholds all of which will require mechanized units with tank support

I can haz AR-15?
Yus. Rly.

Then it's not a perfect society. A perfect society would be a global society of peace, without war, weapons, or the need for either.

Until the Xenos invaders from outer space arrive...

That's the benefit of lolcat infantry. They can cute the enemy to death.

Lolcats are probably a violation of the Geneva conventions.

But kittens do make the perfect weapon, even the most hardened and grizzled soldiers will stop to pet and play with the kittens/puppies. My brother is US Army, his platoon was on a nigh patrol his unit stumbled upon a litter of puppies... body armor came off and cold puppies where tucked into uniform jackets to keep them warm, all 4 made it back to base and found homes.

The military of a perfect nation would involve every man between the ages of 18 and 65 on full time active duty.
the government means of production and society will by and large be ran by the women. This will hopefully lower the amount of wars as no wants to take on a totally mobilized country and women seem to have a slightly smaller inclination for violence.

women seem to have a slightly smaller inclination for violence.

Im not sure if youre trying to bait or not, lol....

But...

Margaret Thatcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher) and The Falklands War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War), beg to Differ...

So how should the military be structured in a perfect society?
Simple salaryman job.


Not the elite of the society, not the underclass, just some good men doing what they do best.

The perfect soceity is protected entirely by giant spacebourne lasers. No army needed.

One, the Maginot line failed because it had a gap in it. If they'd completely closed in France it probably would have worked.;)

Another example, the Atlantic Wall, we breached that in a matter of hours.

Solid defences just do not work in this modern age.

So how should the military be structured in a perfect society? Should one even exist?

Society... I guess you mean State (or country), don't you?
Also, the existance of military forces isn't exactly independent of the surroundings (aka hostile neighbours) of the country, don't you think so?

Define perfect, by the way.

Im not sure if youre trying to bait or not, lol....

But...

Margaret Thatcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher) and The Falklands War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War), beg to Differ...

I said less propensity for violence, i didn't say lay down and do nothing when invaded. Funny thing was the Brits were considering giving the Islands back before the invasion.

Solid defences just do not work in this modern age.

Solid defences NEVER work.
As proven by: Caesar (siege of Alesia iirc), the Mongols (conquered China in spite of the Wall)...

Solid defences NEVER work.
As proven by: Caesar (siege of Alesia iirc), the Mongols (conquered China in spite of the Wall)...

funny you mention the siege of Alesia considering Caesar beat it by building solid defenses.

I said less propensity for violence, i didn't say lay down and do nothing when invaded. Funny thing was the Brits were considering giving the Islands back before the invasion.

Give them back? I didn't think the Argentines had them in the first place. I thought they were Spanish, could be wrong though.

The Falklands also saved our military.

In theory a perfect society wouldn't have any enemies to defend itself from. But maybe the military could be used as a response force for natural disasters and such.

Give them back? I didn't think the Argentines had them in the first place. I thought they were Spanish, could be wrong though.

The Falklands also saved our military.

Argentina or more exactly United Provinces of the River Plate(predecessor state of modern day Argentina) had control in 1820 as recorded by US Colonel Jewett. and Luis Vernet was governor from 1823 until 1833. Though the problem with that was Luis Vernet had a tendency to play both sides in order ot run off American fishers and sealers that was interfering with his fishing monopoly on the islands.

*has daydream about being able to carry a gun around in public and claim whoever I shot was a dirty terrorist*

Move to Texas.

Solid defences NEVER work.
As proven by: Caesar (siege of Alesia iirc), the Mongols (conquered China in spite of the Wall)...

The Great Wall was hardly a solid defense. There just wasn't the manpower necessary to make it effective.

Populated entirely by lolcats.

Marry me!:fluffle:

In theory a perfect society wouldn't have any enemies to defend itself from. But maybe the military could be used as a response force for natural disasters and such.

I agree. A perfect society (in the sense of a subdivision, political and geographical, of global humanity) could not become perfect without perfecting its relations with other societies (in the same sense.)

Lemma: A perfect society is a society of all known people.

So how should the military be structured in a perfect society?
With ranks and stuff. Democracy is rubbish in miltaries.
Should one even exist?
Well aye, lest your inferior neighbours attack.

So how should the military be structured in a perfect society? Should one even exist?

First the military should be open for everyone who in some way can assist somehow. No patriot should ever be denied the honor of serving their country even if their service is limited to digging holes or sweeping floors.

Second, there should be no peace as long as there is a single dictatorship or spoiler of the natural environment anywhere. A state of war should exist at all times until final victory is achieved. This does not mean that the military must be everywhere at all times. The actual deployment of forces should be determined by the executive and subject to the numbers of troops volunteering for the job.

There should be a degree of democracy in the military. The soldiers should have some input on the appointment of all officers whether warrant, NCO, or commissioned.

If there is a universal military service then obviously there must be a system in place to deal with consciencious objectors in a way that provides them with a dignified way to demonstrate their courage and valor in a manner consistent with their beliefs such as firefighting or search and rescue.

It would be a female army.

Prettymuch the US Military of 1912 with a Modern Arsenal of Weapons...


Look up the Phillipine-American War. Technically it ended in 1903, but thats definitely just a technicality because it was still going strong until 1913. We also had some bases in China soon thereafter, mostly garrisoned by Marines.

Anyhow, describing the perfect military is difficult. You need different capabilities to tackle different objectives and operations, though most of this depends on the foreign policy of the nation in question. I'd say the American military at its present is about as close to perfect as you're going to get. It cannot be defeated in conventional battle, and if the political leaders had the balls to allow them to do what needed to be done in order to win, they'd be unstoppable against insurgencies as well. In short: when fully utilized, the American military is an unbeatable machine (within reason).

The perfect soceity is protected entirely by giant spacebourne lasers. No army needed.

and what of the mole-people?

Move to Texas.

Texans can shoot back :(

First the military should be open for everyone who in some way can assist somehow. No patriot should ever be denied the honor of serving their country even if their service is limited to digging holes or sweeping floors.

"I don't know about you, but I'm sick of seeing disabled people being pushed around..."

no every "patriot" should be trained and able to the minimum level of every soldier regardless of rank because every soldier can expect to see a fight

Second, there should be no peace as long as there is a single dictatorship or spoiler of the natural environment anywhere.

why? its not really the perfect nations buisiness how another society operates

The soldiers should have some input on the appointment of all officers whether warrant, NCO, or commissioned.

commanding officers should be respected not liked and rank advancement should be based on achievement not some wishy washy democratic process

If there is a universal military service then obviously there must be a system in place to deal with consciencious objectors in a way that provides them with a dignified way to demonstrate their courage and valor in a manner consistent with their beliefs such as firefighting or search and rescue.

don't be silly they already refuse to serve the community

It would be a female army.

*imagines Arab men trying to defend their shoe stores in vain*

I'd say the American military at its present is about as close to perfect as you're going to get.

so you yanks are trying to shoot at coalition troops? thems fighting words in either case :p

Probably some kind of club for people who like dressing up and hanging around in single sex environments.

so you yanks are trying to shoot at coalition troops?
Just the [insert your nation here] ones! We hate you guys!

What, I'm lazy today.

in a perfect world, a military is unneccsary

in a perfect world, a military is unneccsary

Its not about a perfect world, its about a perfect nation in an imperfect world.

Probably some kind of club for people who like dressing up and hanging around in single sex environments.

You want to arm the scouts? :eek2:

So in a way I mean perfect to represent your ideal nation. If your ideal nation has taken over the world, then perhaps you have a military insurrection to deal with when you try to disband them;)Hmm...then instead of disbanding them outright, they need to be turned into an "internal security force" (since there wouldn't be an "external" anymore) or some such thing. And, over the years, slowly change the kind of equipment they get so that after some decades, it's not really all that military. They still can call themselves "soldiers" if it's politically expedient to allow that, but de facto, they'd become more like police.

Also, the size of the force could be allowed to shrink to nothing by not replacing retiring soldiers, instead of a sudden disbandment.

Fun fact: Liechtenstein is the size of a shoebox and has no army whatsoever.

It also survived WWII without being invaded even once despite being in the middle of europe.

Fun fact: Liechtenstein is the size of a shoebox and has no army whatsoever.

It also survived WWII without being invaded even once despite being in the middle of europe.

That's because Heath Ledger is from Liechtenstein and nobody wanted him to get his lance out.

Except, y'know, hetah ledger had yet to be born >_>

Except, y'know, hetah ledger had yet to be born >_>

God may be French but Jesus is English!

Bring it on!

(horribly paraphrased)

ssshhh, discussions of jehovah's norwegianblueness should be in other topics >_>

Look up the Phillipine-American War. Technically it ended in 1903, but thats definitely just a technicality because it was still going strong until 1913. We also had some bases in China soon thereafter, mostly garrisoned by Marines.


Although the ethics of that conflict were definitely questionable, It was technically our soil...and Id say a situation like that coming up today would be nigh impossible...

I was more describing a Military that wouldnt be able to easily pull off preemptive strikes and interventionist policies like in Iraq...Yet still be fully capable of defending a nation in a legitimate time of war...

Fun fact: Liechtenstein is the size of a shoebox and has no army whatsoever. It also survived WWII without being invaded even once despite being in the middle of europe.

Maybe it was because they had nothing anybody wanted. That, and the Nazi's had already conquered Belgium and didn't need it to collect the set.

I'd think some kind of universal military conscription. Maybe link citizenship to service.