NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

Well, only the stupid ones get caught, and hence branded a criminal. That would skew your sample, surely?

But I agree, that is especially stupid!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

While I would agree that the average criminal is quite probably below average intelligence and education, there are always some who are in fact quite clever. They're a very small minority, though.

I don't think there's a correlation between intelligence and criminality, though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

If we educate them there's a chance they'll miss the lamppost, then we'd have to educate our police force on how to catch criminals, in this economic climate?

While I would agree that the average criminal is quite probably below average intelligence and education, there are always some who are in fact quite clever. They're a very small minority, though.

I don't think there's a correlation between intelligence and criminality, though.

Groundbreaking stuff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?
It's because smart people have decided that smart crime isn't really a crime...


~ points @ current economic situation ~

edit:
I personally believe that many criminals are smarter than average.

Naw, criminals are just as intelligent as the average person.

Luckily NSG seems to have a higher intelligence level than the average person. ;)

According to a friend of mine who works in criminal justice, there are some really bright people in prison that push up the average, the majority are pretty stupid. Also there are also quite a large number of people with dyslexia which makes me think that this may be people struggling to get employment rather than being criminal by nature.

According to a friend of mine who works in criminal justice, there are some really bright people in prison that push up the average, the majority are pretty stupid. Also there are also quite a large number of people with dyslexia which makes me think that this may be people struggling to get employment rather than being criminal by nature.

Crime is almost always a socio-economic problem rather than people having a natural inclination.

I have no citation.

The NZ dumb escape story is anmusing but you're going a bit far to use it as any basis for as difficult a question as the correlation between criminality and intelligenge. Sorry to party poop.
Also, as Holy C and S pointed out, the ones that get caught tend to be the dumber ones.

Think of the subtile for the Enron movie - the smartest guys in the room. The real criminals tend to proliferate in the governmnets and boardrooms of this planet.They know how to rig the game so that they almost always win.

Most criminals aren't very intelligent. That's why we send them to prison - to become smarter criminals. :eek: :p

I don't think there's a correlation between intelligence and criminality, though.

Actually there is a negative correlation between criminality and IQ, similarly with education and socio-economic status (there's been a variety of studies looking at this but Farrington's work is probably one of the better one to check out). However, of course, a lot more of the population have low education/IQ than end up being criminals, therefore there are clearly other factors involved. Many of these involve exposure to criminal models, social group acceptance of criminality, peer pressure, past abuse/exposure to violence, parental neglect, substance abuse, and yes, issues around personality and certain predispositions.

What's the solution to this... well tackling it holistically for a start. Education is definitly needed, you can do all the rehabilitation in the world, but if a prisoner can't find a job because they don't even have basic GCSEs, then they're likley to reoffend. Teaching more soft, thinking/social skills is another. Often offenders have missed out on learning some of the more nebulous skills about how to live in society (due to issues with parenting/peer groups), so they need to learn how to resolve issues and think through problems without resorting to the short-term 'easy' way. Help getting clean of drugs/alcohol and help getting housing and jobs afterwards. One of the best* 'resistance' factors for reoffending is having a steady job, and for that, clearly, they need education but also help with the job market (which many won't have any experience of at all).


* The strongest resistance factor is a non-criminal support group - family, wife/husband, kids etc... In fact kids is a big one. That and getting older.

Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

The Perry Preschool program reduced the likelihood of those who participated in the program when compared to the control group of being arrested over five times by over thirty percent: Source (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/economic.htm). Therefore there are some gains by education early on.

It depends on the crime, really. Serial murderers are usually exceptionally intelligent, for example, because there's usually no way in hell they would be able to get away with their crimes effectively if they didn't possess a masterful knowledge of evidence disposal and forensics. Same is true of white-collar criminals, especially those tied to the complex financial fraud we're seeing today.

Another example of a fine criminal mind at work
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7848206.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

Stupid, no. Severely lacking in the cost:benefit analysis ability, yes.

It depends whether you mean, as they say, 'book-smart' or 'street-smart'.

Keep in mind that intelligent people are fully capable of being successful in life, getting elected to higher office, and then doing sopmethiung utterly stupid (like sending spies to the Watergate hotel).

Yes they are. The 'criminal' gene is closely linked to the 'poor' gene, which in turn is closely linked to the 'stupid' gene. We really need to imprison these folks in some kind of brutal work camp so they can make some positive contribution to society. Its the kindest way to deal with 'people' like that (can they really be considered human? Just puttting it out there) Oh, and neuter them. Did I mention the neutering? Yeh, thats important.

*Eagerly awaits to see if anyone takes this seriously*

Yes they are. The 'criminal' gene is closely linked to the 'poor' gene, which in turn is closely linked to the 'stupid' gene. We really need to imprison these folks in some kind of brutal work camp so they can make some positive contribution to society. Its the kindest way to deal with 'people' like that (can they really be considered human? Just puttting it out there) Oh, and neuter them. Did I mention the neutering? Yeh, thats important.


Don't forget the 'votes republican' gene! :p

Stupid, no. Severely lacking in the cost:benefit analysis ability, yes.

Think you might have something there, perhaps it is they are less able to see future consequences for current actions.

Don't forget the 'votes republican' gene! :p

Actually, that's closer to the "selfish", "warmonger" and "irrationally intolerant" genes than the "stupid" one, according to the latest scientific research in the True Genuine Science Journal.

Crime is almost always a socio-economic problem rather than people having a natural inclination.

I have no citation.

I'm sure I could route out a few for you if I had time

Actually, it's a little more complex than that - it's more that certain personality traits can predispose towards criminality (impulsivity for example being a big one) which when they interact with a specific environment when growing up and combined with issues of socio-economic status and possibilities does lead to increased criminality.

However, there are no traits that automatically lead to criminality - even psychopathy!

One of my neighbors used to say, "Cops are the second stupidest people on Earth, thank god criminals are the first."
It depends on the crime, really. Serial murderers are usually exceptionally intelligent, for example, because there's usually no way in hell they would be able to get away with their crimes effectively if they didn't possess a masterful knowledge of evidence disposal and forensics. Same is true of white-collar criminals, especially those tied to the complex financial fraud we're seeing today.
Serial killers tend to be either stupid (disorganized) or somewhat intelligent (organized). Although nothing is more tedious than a wannabe Hannibal (except Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal, I guess).
Actually, that's closer to the "selfish", "warmonger" and "irrationally intolerant" genes than the "stupid" one, according to the latest scientific research in the True Genuine Science Journal.
You read the True Genuine Science Journal? That's not a peer-reviewed, scientific publication of record! At least, that's what the Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science said in their recent article, "True Genuine Science Journal run by Poop Heads and Lizardmen."

You read the True Genuine Science Journal? That's not a peer-reviewed, scientific publication of record! At least, that's what the Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science said in their recent article, "True Genuine Science Journal run by Poop Heads and Lizardmen."

They would say that. The Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science was formed by a scummy scoundrelish set of splitters angered that their article 'The French; Is that Pong Genetic or Culturally Conditioned?' was rejected by the editorial board as not sciencey enough since it didn't contain enough jargon or numbers. Rather than rewrite their article using accepted scientific nonsense words and stick in a meaningless table of figures (to twelve decimal places), they upped and left and set up their own journal. Caused a lot of controversy, and the anger remains strong to this day. At the monthly scientists convention, the scientific community likes to mock the size of their willies and stick plutonium in their cupcakes.

They would say that. The Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science was formed by a scummy scoundrelish set of splitters angered that their article 'The French; Is that Pong Genetic or Culturally Conditioned?' being rejected by the editorial board as not sciencey enough since it didn't contain enough jargon or numbers. Rather than rewrite their article using accepted scientific nonsense words and stick in a meaningless table of figures (to twelve decimal places), they upped and left and set up their own journal. Caused a lot of controversy, and the anger remains strong to this day. At the monthly scientists convention, the scientific community likes to mock the size of their willies and stick plutonium in their cupcakes.
The Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science mentioned such slanderous accusations in their article, "Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science 2 Legit 2 Quit." They dismissed the accusations by pointing out that the True Genuine Science Journal did, in fact, publish the disputed article in their next issue with only minor revisions (replacing every diagram with a picture of Gordon Kaye in his role as Renee Artois; replacing all 23 occurrences of the word "buttface" with the phrase "Inverse Atomization Process").
The actual split was motivated by the staff of AQNFBQJS refusing to change their clothes. They don't sweat, after all, so why should they?

It's because smart people have decided that smart crime isn't really a crime...


~ points @ current economic situation ~

edit:
I personally believe that many criminals are smarter than average.

No, it's because the most successful criminals can afford to lobby Congress to declare their crimes legal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

Not necessarily. Some criminals are down right brilliant. It just varies. Hell, some top businessmen aren't the smartest individuals, its just a persons ability to adapt to their situation, make the most of it, and be able to be cutthroat, sometimes literally :tongue:


I believe punishment is what is needed, not necessarily education for them. Though I know that some of my SEAL team buddies were involved in training a bunch of criminals in diving and underwater construction/demolition techniques. Almost 90% got out of prison and now have *extremely* high paying jobs in the private sector. So, it depends on the criminal, their motivation to learn and be rehabilitated, etc.

The Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science mentioned such slanderous accusations in their article, "Actually Quite Not Fake Bi-Quarterly Journal of Science 2 Legit 2 Quit." They dismissed the accusations by pointing out that the True Genuine Science Journal did, in fact, publish the disputed article in their next issue with only minor revisions (replacing every diagram with a picture of Gordon Kaye in his role as Renee Artois; replacing all 23 occurrences of the word "buttface" with the phrase "Inverse Atomization Process").
The actual split was motivated by the staff of AQNFBQJS refusing to change their clothes. They don't sweat, after all, so why should they?

Normally, this would be a fair point. But in the previous edition of the True Genuine Science Journal those same researchers had discovered that, if played by a man weighing over twenty five stone, a bassoon was able to produce a note capable of making any living creature evacuate their bowels. While the True Genuine Science Journal had no qualms with the quality of the research or the paper submitted, it was felt that the 'no change of clothes' policy was inappropriate given that the level of soiling of the aforementioned clothes while conducting the experiment was such that they were stinking out the building and provoking pigeons up to fourteen miles away to commit suicide rather than put up with the pong any longer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

If criminals are so dim, why do they manage to attain positions such as CEOs of major corporations? Political appointments and so forth?

When all you do is focus on low level crime, and ignore 'white collar crime', then sure, you can make silly sweeping generalisations about crime being linked to intelligence, or race, or socio-economic status...but when you expand your view to encompass all 'crime', you see that in fact, a certain segment of the criminal population is disproportionately punished whilst another receives fairly mild sanctions (or even acclaim).

If criminals are so dim, why do they manage to attain positions such as CEOs of major corporations? Political appointments and so forth?

When all you do is focus on low level crime, and ignore 'white collar crime', then sure, you can make silly sweeping generalisations about crime being linked to intelligence, or race, or socio-economic status...but when you expand your view to encompass all 'crime', you see that in fact, a certain segment of the criminal population is disproportionately punished whilst another receives fairly mild sanctions (or even acclaim).

Its only "crime" when poor people do it. The upper-class equivalent is "profit-making activity in unconventional sectors of the informal economy". Stop hatin' on the entrepreneurial spirit, commie.

If criminals are so dim, why do they manage to attain positions such as CEOs of major corporations? Political appointments and so forth?

When all you do is focus on low level crime, and ignore 'white collar crime', then sure, you can make silly sweeping generalisations about crime being linked to intelligence, or race, or socio-economic status...but when you expand your view to encompass all 'crime', you see that in fact, a certain segment of the criminal population is disproportionately punished whilst another receives fairly mild sanctions (or even acclaim).

True I was thinking more of the prison population, which isn't representative, people like lawyers and CEOs usually manage to avoid it. Seems to me the perfect crime nowadays is likely to be just so complicated you cannot find a jury who can understand it.

My real point behind the sweeping generalisation is that there is not a homogenous group of criminals who share the same motivations.

True I was thinking more of the prison population, which isn't representative, people like lawyers and CEOs usually manage to avoid it. Seems to me the perfect crime nowadays is likely to be just so complicated you cannot find a jury who can understand it.

My real point behind the sweeping generalisation is that there is not a homogenous group of criminals who share the same motivations.

lol precisely why I do not believe in trial by jury :tongue:

I don't think it's a matter of being less intelligent. Rather it's a case of being misinformed. Example: Crime is the only life that really pays, something along those lines of thinking.

But in that video it's a matter of adrenaline. Just think about how you get an adrenaline rush when you're doing something you know you shouldn't be. Well people committing crimes are feeling the same way. Sometimes adrenaline makes you do dumb things, especially when coupled with nervousness.

but I commit crimes all the time :confused:

The ones in the OP certainly were.

Keep in mind that intelligent people are fully capable of being successful in life, getting elected to higher office, and then doing sopmethiung utterly stupid (like sending spies to the Watergate hotel).

If I remember right, the Committee to re-elect the President (formed by Nixon) decided on their own to send the spies. Nixon's crime--and the one he would have been impeached for--was for covering it up when he found out about it.

Perhaps these videos could be part of an anti-crime campaign, portraying criminals largely as hopeless eejits. Rather than the ASBO approach where it is almost a badge of coolness for some of the numpties out there.

Anyone else laughed at loud at the OP video?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?

Are criminals idiotic? Not really, some are some are not.

My dad is a highley intelegent man, for example.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,484944,00.html

Watch the video linked at the bottom. Trust me, you'll enjoy it.

Lol!!!

Magical stuff eh?:tongue:

Two hardened suspects on New Zealand's North Island tried to make a break from a courthouse Wednesday, still tied together by handcuffs. But before they could run across the street in Hastings, they were hit by pepper-spray — and that’s where their bolt for freedom went horribly wrong.

Stumbling onwards, the hapless criminals appeared to forget they were tied together — and ran on either side of a streetlamp.

They slammed into each other, fell to the ground, and collapsed in a heap.

The first prisoner, Regan Reti, 20, had just been jailed for more than two years after being convicted of assault. The other inmate, Tiranara White, 21, was in custody for allegedly stealing a car and violating parole.

“They fell over and they were sprayed with pepper spray. But they got up and ran out of the court onto the street, across the road to a car park,” Senior Sergeant, Dave Greig, explained.

“That’s where they met the pole — it was all over, rover.”
Damn it the OP should have done that not me.

Merged the two threads on this topic into one neat little package.

Merged the two threads on this topic into one neat little package.

I was beginning to wonder how i missed out the thirty odd posts, previously.
I thought ahh i'm seeing things.
but it's okay now the Unicorn told me so.:wink:

I love replaying the video.

Are criminals less intelligent than the rest of us? But of course, this is NSG, a collection of the finest minds on the planet.

Also education and imprisonment are not mutually exclusive. If someone commits a crime, punish them for it. Don't let them get away with it.

But getin' away with it feels so damn good (http://ftloveblog70.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/brian-mulroney.jpg). ;)

I think there is a direct correlation between intelligence and criminality. Perhaps most criminals are even more intelligent than the average law abiding citizen.

The ones who get caught are.

The ones who don't get caught are obviously better than the rest of us.

You know, it's funny...

Looking at the DRM thread, I would guess that they are more intelligent than us. :tongue:

Not very funny.

Now, if a Rastafarian showed up with an eight-ball of weed and a bong offering to show him Jesus, or if Richard Dawkins came to his doorstep and troutslapped him on sight, that would be mildly funnier.

eight-ball of weed? really? I'm my day an "eight-ball" was a measure reserved for cocaine.

Weed is measured in factions: eighth, quarter, half and ounce.

Well what with all counting our money and drugs it stands to reason.

some criminals have thought out they're plan verry well..so it's not really easy to say if they're stupid or not

Stupid, no. Severely lacking in the cost:benefit analysis ability, yes.

Pretty much this. I'm imagine at some levels of organised crime it might be worth it, but for most people you're better off on this side of the law.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm

Based on this evidence are criminals really just a bit dim? Is education what is needed not imprisonment?
To mix things up a bit here, I would say that the people on wall street who are pocketing multi-million dollar bonuses with taxpayer money are criminals--yet most of them are quite educated, holding graduate degrees as MBAs etc. Thus, I don't think education deters or ameliorates criminals. They are motivated by greed or, in the case of murder-types, anger/rage and all the education in the world will not stop greedy/raging people.