NationStates Jolt Archive

WARNING - A farily long read for those looking for those not looking for background information. Skip to the end for debate.

So, today the American Society of Civil Engineers released their recent nationwide study on the infrastructure of America:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The nation's roads, bridges, power grid, water supply, schools and transit systems are all in a state of disrepair due to under-funding - and the proposed stimulus plan will not go far enough to solve the problem, according to a report released Wednesday. The American Society of Civil Engineers, which represents 146,000 engineers across the country and grades the nation's infrastructure every four years, assigned a "D" grade to the country's infrastructure. The group said the cost to repair crumbling public structures has risen to $2.2 trillion from $1.7 trillion in 2005... The group rated 15 infrastructure categories, none of which received a grader higher than "C+." Drinking water, inland waterways, levees, roads and wastewater facilities all received a "D-," the lowest grades on the 2009 report card.

Link (http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/28/news/economy/infrastructure_report_card/index.htm?postversion=2009012811)

Here's what ASCE sent to me:

Today, the American Society of Civil Engineers issued its latest Report Card for America’s Infrastructure, the fourth since 1998. Never has the need for infrastructure investment received such national attention as it is now in the context of stimulating our economy. Recognizing the importance of informing and contributing to this discussion in a timely manner, we made the decision to release the key components of our 2009 Report Card two months ahead of schedule. Today ASCE released the grades for 15 categories of infrastructure, solutions for improvement, and a five year investment need figure...

Category Grade
Aviation D
Bridges C
Dams D
Drinking Water D-
Energy (Electric Power Grid) D+
Hazardous Waste D
Inland Waterways D-
Levees D-
Public Parks and Recreation C-
Rail C-
Roads D-
Schools D
Solid Waste C+
Transit D
Wastewater D-

Despite these low grades and years of delayed improvement, the problems are not beyond our ability to solve... To begin that task, ASCE offers these five Key Solutions to raise the grades:

1. Increase federal leadership in infrastructure to address the crisis.
2. Promote sustainability and resilience in infrastructure to protect the natural environment and withstand natural and manmade hazards.
3. Develop national, regional, and state infrastructure plans that complement a national vision and focus on system-wide results.
4. Address life-cycle costs and ongoing maintenance to meet the needs of current and future users.
5. Increase and improve infrastructure investment from all stakeholders.

All of this talk would be fairly depressing without an actual plan for improvement. Some of our infrastructure needs, such as water, electricity, sewer, waterways, levees, etc. need reconstruction. However, there are other that can use simple modernization. One of my professors, in conjunction with Caltrans and a clever grad student from USC, implemented a small-scale solution that could be used to drastically cut public transit wait times:

A new GPS system has virtually eliminated the guessing game for Bronco Express passengers. Parking & Transportation Services unveiled last week a GPS-based system that tracks the locations of the Bronco Express shuttles around campus and gives riders wait times at each stop. The EDAPTS system (Efficient Deployment of Advanced Public Transportation System) includes marquee signs at four popular stops, an online map that pinpoints the shuttles on their routes and a mobile phone option...The EDAPTS project began about three years ago, when students complained about waiting too long for the Bronco Express shuttles. That caught the attention of Civil Engineering Professor Xudong Jia, an expert in transportation engineering and planning. Working with Caltrans, colleagues from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, who already had a similar system in place, and Cal Poly Pomona students, Jia helped develop a low-cost intelligent transportation system that could track buses, count the number of passengers and display real-time information online and on signs.

Link (http://polycentric.csupomona.edu/printable.asp?id=2284)




In short:

How widespread do you feel the issue is where you live/nationally?
What would you propose to alleviate the problems that Americans may face down the road?
Would such a system implemented at Cal Poly Pomona work on a large scale and, if so, what effect would it have on the national transportation system?

The solution - give it all up and live on the land. SI SE PEUDE.

The GPS system you describe has been used here (with everything except the online map) for a while now. I'm glad there is finally some focus on infrastructure issues in the states though, good to see. I'm suprised the rail infrasturcture scored higher than roads, as modernisaion in that area is really needed urgently, from what I've seen in California and Washington state at least

More Money. All problems will be solved with more money.

MUNI (San Francisco Municipal somethingsomething, our buses) us that GPS deal, been doing it for at least a year now. You can check the buses on your phone, too, by going to nextmuni.com.

I always thought that the next step is a portable GPS like the one I have, but is public transportation enabled. There's already an option for 'public transportation' on Google maps, so I feel like it's only a matter of time.

None of them are about to collapse, but I fear that without improvement, things will slowly degrade, causing repeats of the 2003 megablackout and 2007 Minnesota bridge collapse.

It's funny you posted this. Just today on the way to work I noticed more potholes in the freeway.....

We should encourage global warming. When the icecaps melt, this will decrease the surface area of the US thereby forcing everyone to live closer together by definition and therefore needing a smaller system. Think of the costly to repair bridges that will eventualy be underwater and off the books alone.

More Money. All problems will be solved with more money.

As well as being exposed to a certain eminent Russian/American philsopher.

It's funny you posted this. Just today on the way to work I noticed more potholes in the freeway.....

Potholes tend to be a failure of asphaltic concrete/concrete remediation and a sign that the top surface is in need of either complete reconstruction or overlay, rather than an infrastructure failure.

Nie, what I am speaking of is on a grander scale... driving over bridges that were designed in the 50s or on freeways that are capable of total trip capacities seen in the 80s and 90s. Or waiting for 20 minutes only to find that the bus you expected was full. Or waiting for well over a half an hour for a train to arrive.

I wonder how the rest of the world rates...

Corporatize all of it.

None of them are about to collapse...

None of what? Roads? Rail?

Water and wastewater stuff is falling apart all over the country on an almost daily basis, just for example. Wait till this year's drought - we're going to see more cities actually 'running dry'.

Infrastructure isn't just about cars and trains.

None of what? Roads? Rail?

Water and wastewater stuff is falling apart all over the country on an almost daily basis, just for example. Wait till this year's drought - we're going to see more cities actually 'running dry'.

Infrastructure isn't just about cars and trains.

Yes, but we have enough redundancy to handle it.... for now. We're not at the point where the sewage version of that blackout occurs, but if they don't fix things...

Yes, but we have enough redundancy to handle it.... for now. We're not at the point where the sewage version of that blackout occurs, but if they don't fix things...

No, we don't have enough redundancy. In the last few years, we have literally had various water supplies 'run dry', and some seriously bad situations that didn't get quite that far. (Atlanta was borderline). Another dry summer and we'll have municipalities all over the place drying out. And waste water don't work without the water part.

(Atlanta was borderline).The Water Wars? EW. Fuck that.

I haven't noticed much where I live (Kansas). The roads is Missouri are fucking terrible. So fucking terrible. I loathe driving in Missouri.

Roads are fine.
Water is fine.
Bridges are fine.
The railroads seem fine. (trains are on 'em all the time anyway)
The airport seems okay.

Decentralisation seems to be the best way.

Power generated at home, composting toilets (takes care of the power grid and sewer systems).

Rely less on roading, and more on flying, have roading restricted to cities and towns would be interesting.

Water being captured via roofs would also take stress off the sewer systems.

Decentralisation seems to be the best way.

Power generated at home, composting toilets (takes care of the power grid and sewer systems).

Rely less on roading, and more on flying, have roading restricted to cities and towns would be interesting.

Water being captured via roofs would also take stress off the sewer systems.


Roading? Do you mean driving?

If so, why do you hate road trips?

Roading? Do you mean driving?

If so, why do you hate road trips?

I enjoy them. However, taking a realistic view of the energy that goes into it. Of course, this is less realistic in the U.S. because of the expansive continent and all.

I haven't noticed much where I live (Kansas). The roads is Missouri are fucking terrible. So fucking terrible. I loathe driving in Missouri.

Roads are fine.
Water is fine.
Bridges are fine.
The railroads seem fine. (trains are on 'em all the time anyway)
The airport seems okay.

Not really all that many roads, bridges or rail lines in Kansas.

Corporatize all of it.

Not no, but hell no.

Not really all that many roads, bridges or rail lines in Kansas.

Haha, what?

I-70?
I-35?
I-435?
I-635?

And there are a lot more bridges than you think.

And there are trains coming through day and night!

I question A report written by the people who would be paid to build/improve this infrastructure.

Not really all that many roads, bridges or rail lines in Kansas.

Kansas has a lot of traffic most of your east west transcontinental traffic goes via Kansas and Kansas has all that food to get to market.

Kansas has a lot of traffic most of your east west transcontinental traffic goes via Kansas and Kansas has all that food to get to market.

Did I say traffic? No. I said roads.

Haha, what?

I-70?
I-35?
I-435?
I-635?

And there are a lot more bridges than you think.

And there are trains coming through day and night!

That's all? FOUR? Less than I thought.

North Dakota has the same number, and probably just about the same total distance with I-94 and I-29. I'm not talking about use. I'm talking about miles of road. Kansas isn't even in the top 10.

Kansas has a lot of traffic most of your east west transcontinental traffic goes via Kansas and Kansas has all that food to get to market.

Oh yeah.

Kansas is a land of plenty.

It has the best damn bbq in the world.

And I will fight a man who says otherwise. :p

@Intagleon:
Ah. total mileage of road. I see your point. Kansas is one of the smaller states in population, that makes sense.

Oh yeah.

Kansas is a land of plenty.

It has the best damn bbq in the world.

And I will fight a man who says otherwise. :p

@Intagleon:
Ah. total mileage of road. I see your point. Kansas is one of the smaller states in population, that makes sense.

Get ready for a fight on BBQ, then. Texas. End of argument.

Get ready for a fight on BBQ, then. Texas. End of argument.

10 or 20 paces, good sir?

10 or 20 paces, good sir?

Sorry pal, but you're not going to convince me that a Texas brisket smoked for 14 hours and just melting in your mouth is going to be surpassed by anything from Kansas with more sauce than skill.

I question A report written by the people who would be paid to build/improve this infrastructure.

There's a reason why the government pays these people to investigate these things. Because they're, you know, experts in their field. Just as you would expect a team of economists to do a report on the economy.

There's a reason why the government pays these people to investigate these things. Because they're, you know, experts in their field. Just as you would expect a team of economists to do a report on the economy.

yes, but the economist don't get new job opportunities by saying the economy needs work. Civil Engineers ability to get work depends on their ability to convince the government their needs to be work done.

yes, but the economist don't get new job opportunities by saying the economy needs work. Civil Engineers ability to get work depends on their ability to convince the government their needs to be work done.

All it takes is a drive across any number of roads in the US, and you'll see what work needs to be done. There are still at least 100 bridges with aging wooden pilings in Washington alone. Others have truss bridges that are as old and of a simile small-gusseted design as the I-35 disaster bridge in MSP.

All it takes is a drive across any number of roads in the US, and you'll see what work needs to be done. There are still at least 100 bridges with aging wooden pilings in Washington alone. Others have truss bridges that are as old and of a simile small-gusseted design as the I-35 disaster bridge in MSP.

I am not saying their isn't. I just question a report written by civil engineers about how much their job is needed. Its not like they would say everything is perfect you can just not pay us this next year.
though I think the issue is mostly because the interstate system went back to states and some states have maintained them but others have not.
though this infrastructure boost will benefit those states that have skimped on maintaining their infrastructure and give little to those who did what they were supposed to do.

Now, it is important to note that civil engineers do have some skin in the game as far as infrastructure spending is concerned; if they reported that things were great, then they'd be imperiling their own jobs (thanks to that mysterious philosophy that acceptable conditions are a sign that it's time to start neglecting the situation).

That being said, the infrastructure situation is serious and does require considerable investment to ensure our economy remains competitive and capable of handling the continued rapid emergence of new technologies and new economic sectors. At the same time, we also need to keep it in good shape to ensure existing sectors aren't imperiled to say nothing of the wasted money and wasted productivity that already puts a damper on our economic potential.

I think we'll see rapid improvement in the years to come as infrastructure finally receives much needed attention, but we need to be careful that we don't end up spending billions on patchwork projects instead of the major structural improvements needed on a much larger scale. At the same time we should also be looking to see what kinds of infrastructure can be successfully privatized to ensure the government focuses first and foremost on new and updated infrastructure without wasting money on projects that can be better handled by the private sector.

I haven't noticed much where I live (Kansas). The roads is Missouri are fucking terrible. So fucking terrible. I loathe driving in Missouri.

Roads are fine.
Water is fine.
Bridges are fine.
The railroads seem fine. (trains are on 'em all the time anyway)
The airport seems okay.

In what way are those things fine?

Starting with water and wastewater, do you keep track of things like violations that your local supply encounters? Do you keep track of the engineer reports on your local bridges and rail, etc?

I don't think you do. I think you're giving a very much 'lay' opinion of infrastructure, which basically boils down to 'if I don't know it, it don't exist'.

"1. Increase federal leadership in infrastructure to address the crisis.
2. Promote sustainability and resilience in infrastructure to protect the natural environment and withstand natural and manmade hazards.
3. Develop national, regional, and state infrastructure plans that complement a national vision and focus on system-wide results.
4. Address life-cycle costs and ongoing maintenance to meet the needs of current and future users.
5. Increase and improve infrastructure investment from all stakeholders."

all sound good to me, especially 2-4. good for jobs, good for environment, good for common sense. the main think i would add though, is stop worshipping the automobile, and really adjust incentives to favor methods that don't involve burning anything.

i think what happens in politics, what has tended to happen in the past, is new projects are always sexier then allocating necessary resources for operations and maintenance.

(and privatization only makes worse the level of useful infrastructure service per end user cost, contrary to libertarian fantasy)

In what way are those things fine?

Starting with water and wastewater, do you keep track of things like violations that your local supply encounters? Do you keep track of the engineer reports on your local bridges and rail, etc?

I don't think you do. I think you're giving a very much 'lay' opinion of infrastructure, which basically boils down to 'if I don't know it, it don't exist'.

If there was a problem it would have been on the ol' boobtube.

i think what happens in politics, what has tended to happen in the past, is new projects are always sexier then allocating necessary resources for operations and maintenance.

(and privatization only makes worse the level of useful infrastructure service per end user cost, contrary to libertarian fantasy)

True. A lot of the "build phase" highway planning from the 50s and Eisenhower's Interstate Highway program have really begun to be phased out... quite a bit of the resources from the gas tax funded Highway Trust Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Highway_Trust_Fund_(United_States)) has gone to the implementation of different modes of transport and improving the efficiency of roads already in service.

However, there's only so far that can go. Eventually, given the continued growth of metropolitan areas, especially in places like New York and California that see high levels of immigration, the trip capacity of roads will need to be addressed by expansion... a process that, I assure, is nothing to take lightly.

If there was a problem it would have been on the ol' boobtube.

i HOPE that was meant as satire! i hear about the real problems all the time on independent media, nary a peep out of corporate infotainment, unless its already gone beyond the problem that needs fixing stage to the somebody got killed, injured, or made a really big bang, as a result.

a typical example was a dam floodgate that cost several hundred thousand to repair, because $3.50 hadn't been allocated six months earlier to replace a rusty bolt.

(and even THEN it only got fixed at all because several hundred thousand houses had already been built on a 50 year floodplain downstream from it)

(and yes, i live in one of those rapid 'growth' regions of northern california. there comes a saturation point where, to add another lane to the freeway, means mowing down the houses next to it the people driving on it live in. a double track railway would frequently be a more practical solution, with an order of magnitude greater capacity, yet in automobile worshiping california, one far too seldom considered. most of the people in the houses mowed down to widen their freeway probably never even heard of nor considered that sort of solution, having pretty much almost never having imagined anything other then their cars or an airplane)

i HOPE that was meant as satire! i hear about the real problems all the time on independent media, nary a peep out of corporate infotainment, unless its already gone beyond the problem that needs fixing stage to the somebody got killed, injured, or made a really big bang, as a result.

a typical example was a dam floodgate that cost several hundred thousand to repair, because $3.50 hadn't been allocated six months earlier to replace a rusty bolt.

IIRC, there was a pedestrian bridge (or a bridge of any sort, I can't remember... the point is, it's a bridge) of similar construct to the Minneapolis I-35W bridge - a truss bridge - needing to be shut down due to a problem similar to what caused the I-35W bridge to fail.

Anyway, the point is, when it comes to infrastructure, people tend to forget it until there becomes a major issue.

i HOPE that was meant as satire! i hear about the real problems all the time on independent media, nary a peep out of corporate infotainment, unless its already gone beyond the problem that needs fixing stage to the somebody got killed, injured, or made a really big bang, as a result.

a typical example was a dam floodgate that cost several hundred thousand to repair, because $3.50 hadn't been allocated six months earlier to replace a rusty bolt.

You got me.

From what I've seen there aren't any major problems in my area.

Anyways, hopefully Obama will do something to begin a much needed overhaul of our infrastructure.

Anyway, the point is, when it comes to infrastructure, people tend to forget it until there becomes a major issue.

yes, people very seriously need to wake up and smell the reality, that almost everything they take for granted depends entirely on either infrastructure or the environment or both.

(more so then politics, belief, economics or even society, save where each impinge upon them)

In short:

How widespread do you feel the issue is where you live/nationally?
What would you propose to alleviate the problems that Americans may face down the road?
Would such a system implemented at Cal Poly Pomona work on a large scale and, if so, what effect would it have on the national transportation system?

I've taken public transportation at at least 25 major cities around the country. In my experience, bus schedules are pretty reliable. Knowing for certain that the Cal Poly Shuttle's coming at 4:03, rather than 4:00 or, at worst, 4:06, is nice I'm sure, but if you're relying on public transit, you're going to wait the five minutes patiently regardless. I do like the freeway signs that tell you how long it'll take you to get to the 60 or the 15 or whatever, though. Those are helpful and should be expanded.

How widespread do you feel the issue is where you live/nationally?
What would you propose to alleviate the problems that Americans may face down the road?
Would such a system implemented at Cal Poly Pomona work on a large scale and, if so, what effect would it have on the national transportation system?

I know only of two countries who have really up-to-date infrastructures OR are already in an advanced state of refurbishment of said infrastructures: Germany and Switzerland.
I live in Italy and the infrastructures here (and also the transport services) suck. Even in Milan which has the best transport infrastructures and services nationwide. And everybody complains about it.

How to alleviate problems with roads? Simple... more railroads. Trams, underground where possible and economically feasible, high-speed/high-capacity railroads.

The CPP system can work on large scale... but it isn't the first step one should take; it's a superstructure!
1.planning service at structural level.
2.designing infrastructures according to 1.
3.add superstructures.

"1. Increase federal leadership in infrastructure to address the crisis.
2. Promote sustainability and resilience in infrastructure to protect the natural environment and withstand natural and manmade hazards.
3. Develop national, regional, and state infrastructure plans that complement a national vision and focus on system-wide results.
4. Address life-cycle costs and ongoing maintenance to meet the needs of current and future users.
5. Increase and improve infrastructure investment from all stakeholders."

all sound good to me, especially 2-4. good for jobs, good for environment, good for common sense. the main think i would add though, is stop worshipping the automobile, and really adjust incentives to favor methods that don't involve burning anything.

i think what happens in politics, what has tended to happen in the past, is new projects are always sexier then allocating necessary resources for operations and maintenance.

(and privatization only makes worse the level of useful infrastructure service per end user cost, contrary to libertarian fantasy)

All good points, particularly 1 and 4. Privatisation of infrastructure is usually a mistake.

True. A lot of the "build phase" highway planning from the 50s and Eisenhower's Interstate Highway program have really begun to be phased out... quite a bit of the resources from the gas tax funded Highway Trust Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Highway_Trust_Fund_(United_States)) has gone to the implementation of different modes of transport and improving the efficiency of roads already in service.

However, there's only so far that can go. Eventually, given the continued growth of metropolitan areas, especially in places like New York and California that see high levels of immigration, the trip capacity of roads will need to be addressed by expansion... a process that, I assure, is nothing to take lightly.

Replacement/repair of road infrastructure as necessary is obviously a no brainer, as is dealing with particular bottlenecks and increasing capacity when land usage patterns change. However, the UK learned in the 1980's with the M25 (and should have learned it beforehand with the M6/M40/M42/M5/A38(M) and Queensway clusterfuck in Birmingham) that adding capacity to roadways around urban areas when there are other modes available is totally counter-productive. All it does is create more demand as people who were using the others will just switch to the road, brining you back to where you started.

Most efficient infrastructure for urban environments is upgrading and overhauling of existing surface rail to increase commuter rail capacity (example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Overground)) or extending or introducing new tube/metro lines. Twin track surface rail can carry the same number of people as a six lane motorway, but use one third as much land, and journey times are much less subject to disruption by congestion.

However, the UK learned in the 1980's with the M25 (and should have learned it beforehand with the M6/M40/M42/M5/A38(M) and Queensway clusterfuck in Birmingham) that adding capacity to roadways around urban areas when there are other modes available is totally counter-productive. All it does is create more demand as people who were using the others will just switch to the road, brining you back to where you started.

This is true. Another problem that exists is the fact that during most/much of the day a lot of that added capacity is not being used. A solution would be to increase the use of toll roads and have these roads charge more during "peak hours" so those who don't have to drive, won't.

This is true. Another problem that exists is the fact that during most/much of the day a lot of that added capacity is not being used. A solution would be to increase the use of toll roads and have these roads charge more during "peak hours" so those who don't have to drive, won't.

This has been used in Singapore (http://www.lta.gov.sg/motoring_matters/index_motoring_erp.htm) for years, and works well. Onlythe gods know why on earth London went with it's weird C-zone payment mechanism instead of just duplicating the ERP system...

IIRC, there was a pedestrian bridge (or a bridge of any sort, I can't remember... the point is, it's a bridge) of similar construct to the Minneapolis I-35W bridge - a truss bridge - needing to be shut down due to a problem similar to what caused the I-35W bridge to fail.

Anyway, the point is, when it comes to infrastructure, people tend to forget it until there becomes a major issue.

I really wish people would stop citing the I-35 W, when it comes to infrastructure repair, there was a problem with the design that had nothing to do with maintenance. NTSB had a report on it, and there was a thread on NSG around when the report came out.

Not picking on anything you said, but others had mentioned it also, and it just doesn't have much to do with this.

I really wish people would stop citing the I-35 W, when it comes to infrastructure repair, there was a problem with the design that had nothing to do with maintenance. NTSB had a report on it, and there was a thread on NSG around when the report came out.

Not picking on anything you said, but others had mentioned it also, and it just doesn't have much to do with this.

But it does count as infrastructure, and poor design will kill you just as sure as worn-out design.

(and privatization only makes worse the level of useful infrastructure service per end user cost, contrary to libertarian fantasy)

This I got to disagree. we have privately managed highways and public ones.
US-75 and North Texas Tollway in Dallas almost run side by side. The diffrence is night and Day. North Texas tollway is smoother, when they need to do road work they do it at night, and if their is an accident they have tow trucks standing by to clear the road with in minutes.

US 75 on the other hand is full of pot holes, A stalled car can take an hour to remove. it seems everyday there is some form of construction at rush hour. give me the privately ran toll way any day.

Its no surprise the future highway constructions in North Dallas are privately ran toll ways.

I know only of two countries who have really up-to-date infrastructures OR are already in an advanced state of refurbishment of said infrastructures: Germany and Switzerland.
I live in Italy and the infrastructures here (and also the transport services) suck. Even in Milan which has the best transport infrastructures and services nationwide. And everybody complains about it.


Italy is too narrow for anyone to get anywhere. All the streets are narrow and if your a 6-4 270 lb American forget about fitting anywhere.

This I got to disagree. we have privately managed highways and public ones.
US-75 and North Texas Tollway in Dallas almost run side by side. The diffrence is night and Day. North Texas tollway is smoother, when they need to do road work they do it at night, and if their is an accident they have tow trucks standing by to clear the road with in minutes.

US 75 on the other hand is full of pot holes, A stalled car can take an hour to remove. it seems everyday there is some form of construction at rush hour. give me the privately ran toll way any day.

Its no surprise the future highway constructions in North Dallas are privately ran toll ways.

The private highway is competing with a public, free one. Of course they're going to make to nice and smooth and such, but as soon as every highway is privatized, they'll jack up the tolls, AND never repair their highways.

The only real solution is to admit that they've fucked up, and start moving people to areas that people can live in. Places like Las Vegas are, frankly, idiotic, built in the middle of desert, and the same goes for NO, being built into swamp.

The only solution is to go out, and evalutate what parts of the country can be saved, and what parts can't, there isn't any point, imo, trying to save some place like Vegas, because it should have never have been built away from water to begin with.

Our whole manner of living is broken, and needs to be fixed.

This I got to disagree. we have privately managed highways and public ones.
US-75 and North Texas Tollway in Dallas almost run side by side. The diffrence is night and Day. North Texas tollway is smoother, when they need to do road work they do it at night, and if their is an accident they have tow trucks standing by to clear the road with in minutes.

US 75 on the other hand is full of pot holes, A stalled car can take an hour to remove. it seems everyday there is some form of construction at rush hour. give me the privately ran toll way any day.

Its no surprise the future highway constructions in North Dallas are privately ran toll ways.

The only problem with comparing the US-75 and the North Texas Tollway is that they serve different purposes. I've taken 75 into Dallas a few times, and it gets probably 90+% of the large truck traffic coming from north of town. Why? Because the Tollway stops at Frisco. 75 goes all the way to Oklahoma, and is the short way into Texas for anyone coming from Kansas City, St. Louis or anywhere else northeast of there.

Has the NTT even been built out to the far suburbs like McKinney yet?

the private highway is competing with a public, free one. Of course they're going to make to nice and smooth and such, but as soon as every highway is privatized, they'll jack up the tolls, and never repair their highways.

The only real solution is to admit that they've fucked up, and start moving people to areas that people can live in. Places like las vegas are, frankly, idiotic, built in the middle of desert, and the same goes for no, being built into swamp.

The only solution is to go out, and evalutate what parts of the country can be saved, and what parts can't, there isn't any point, imo, trying to save some place like vegas, because it should have never have been built away from water to begin with.

Our whole manner of living is broken, and needs to be fixed.

^
T.his
H.
I.
S.

I really wish people would stop citing the I-35 W, when it comes to infrastructure repair, there was a problem with the design that had nothing to do with maintenance. NTSB had a report on it, and there was a thread on NSG around when the report came out.

Not picking on anything you said, but others had mentioned it also, and it just doesn't have much to do with this.

As a matter of fact, I think I posted something on that...

Anyway, Minneapolis has its own division of its transportation department devoted to inspecting infrastructure so that they can prevent problems from occurring or, if a problem is noted, remediating the problem in an effective and efficient manner.

IIRC, the gusset plates on the far sides of the bridge near the abutments (sp?) were designed to be too thin to handle the expected full load of traffic, including the dead weight of the bridge. However, the plate didn't just fail catastrophically all of a sudden. This is because the design of the plate exceeded the expected load with calculations with respect to a factor of safety and fatigue life of the steel.

Long explanation short, the gusset plates experienced physical bending and "failed," in essence, before there was catastrophic failure. Inspection should have revealed these flaws.

The only problem with comparing the US-75 and the North Texas Tollway is that they serve different purposes. I've taken 75 into Dallas a few times, and it gets probably 90+% of the large truck traffic coming from north of town. Why? Because the Tollway stops at Frisco. 75 goes all the way to Oklahoma, and is the short way into Texas for anyone coming from Kansas City, St. Louis or anywhere else northeast of there.

Has the NTT even been built out to the far suburbs like McKinney yet?

Funny you mention 75 into Oklahoma.
The quick way in Oklahoma is to take 69 and use the Indians nations turn pike. you avoid all the stop signs and 90 degree turns that way.
And again the private ran road is of much better quality.
that's just dumb to stay on 75 coming in from Tulsa. you will spend more on stopping and starting and driving in a big loop then you will on the toll.

Also the tollway goes farther north then Frisco and if you moved it eat it would be farther north then McKinney. It should be connected as a highway to US 380 by the end of the year. And that will make it a better truck route. though any trucker in a hurry and half a brain would cut over on 190 then take the tollway in for anywhere in north dallas.

If they are going through they will take 190 around to 161 and then 360 then back on I45 or I35.

The private highway is competing with a public, free one. Of course they're going to make to nice and smooth and such, but as soon as every highway is privatized, they'll jack up the tolls, AND never repair their highways.
or just apply anti monopoly laws, and make sure the other highway is ran by a different toll company. In affect in North Dallas. NTTA runs the tollway and 190 and a company from Spain runs runs 121.


The only real solution is to admit that they've fucked up, and start moving people to areas that people can live in. Places like Las Vegas are, frankly, idiotic, built in the middle of desert, and the same goes for NO, being built into swamp.

whats wrong with Las Vegas and New orleans ???
They make money. Las Vegas pays more for water and New Orleans is slowly sinking into the Ocean. But they are profitable. by your logic we should move everyone out of L.A. California Because the valley doesn't have its own water source. And they take water from almost ever near by state.

The only solution is to go out, and evalutate what parts of the country can be saved, and what parts can't, there isn't any point, imo, trying to save some place like Vegas, because it should have never have been built away from water to begin with.

Our whole manner of living is broken, and needs to be fixed.

There is no need to save Vegas and New Orleans because they have the money to save themselves. You have the authoritarian bent of Mao Zedeng. There is no heaven on earth other then the heaven we make for ourselves.
The coast are prone to flooding, the Midwest prone to tornadoes, it cost more for water in the desert. People as individuals choose where they want to live and deal with the negatives of that place. You remove people's ability to choose the negatives they also loose the ability to choose the positives.

As a matter of fact, I think I posted something on that...

Anyway, Minneapolis has its own division of its transportation department devoted to inspecting infrastructure so that they can prevent problems from occurring or, if a problem is noted, remediating the problem in an effective and efficient manner.

IIRC, the gusset plates on the far sides of the bridge near the abutments (sp?) were designed to be too thin to handle the expected full load of traffic, including the dead weight of the bridge. However, the plate didn't just fail catastrophically all of a sudden. This is because the design of the plate exceeded the expected load with calculations with respect to a factor of safety and fatigue life of the steel.

They don't know if it was designed with too small plates or if the wrong plates were put on when they built it because the designs couldn't be found.

Long explanation short, the gusset plates experienced physical bending and "failed," in essence, before there was catastrophic failure. Inspection should have revealed these flaws.

well, I can't speak for how fast the gussets on the bridge actually failed, but you can't expect an inspection every day. Inspections are more for trying to point out rust of structural members, and wear on road surface, or if there was exposed rebar. The failure was relatively fast(as in started after last inspection and ended before another was scheduled), due to there being construction on the bridge, ironically if they weren't doing repairs, the bridge wouldn't have failed. Theres no way to detect the type of failure you're talking about without redundancy in the system, which is fine if you want to build a bridge that costs double.

or just apply anti monopoly laws, and make sure the other highway is ran by a different toll company. In affect in North Dallas. NTTA runs the tollway and 190 and a company from Spain runs runs 121.

By giving all the highways to private companies, you've already created a sort of monopoly as is.

Capitalism works on the assumption that if two companies fight over customers, the customers win because the companies bend over backwards to get and retain people. However, what is ignored is that the customer has to have the opinion of not buying the said product at all.

When such an opinion does not exist, the customer always loses.


whats wrong with Las Vegas and New orleans ???
They make money. Las Vegas pays more for water and New Orleans is slowly sinking into the Ocean. But they are profitable. by your logic we should move everyone out of L.A. California Because the valley doesn't have its own water source. And they take water from almost ever near by state.


Money, my dear boy, cannot be used to grow crops, nor can it be used to shelter people.


There is no need to save Vegas and New Orleans because they have the money to save themselves. You have the authoritarian bent of Mao Zedeng. There is no heaven on earth other then the heaven we make for ourselves.
The coast are prone to flooding, the Midwest prone to tornadoes, it cost more for water in the desert. People as individuals choose where they want to live and deal with the negatives of that place. You remove people's ability to choose the negatives they also loose the ability to choose the positives.

Yes, the money yo redirect water usage from almost all of North America because they themselves have no water, and have no understanding of the meaning of conserve.

In any other day or age, if a city didn't have a water supply, it died. Vegas has no water supply, I say let it die.

They don't know if it was designed with too small plates or if the wrong plates were put on when they built it because the designs couldn't be found.

The plates were designed too small. The NTSB went from design on down, and it was discovered that the shear loadings the gusset plates near the abutments were 1.5 times what they should have been given the factor of safety for the bridge and material fatigue.

well, I can't speak for how fast the gussets on the bridge actually failed, but you can't expect an inspection every day. Inspections are more for trying to point out rust of structural members, and wear on road surface, or if there was exposed rebar. The failure was relatively fast(as in started after last inspection and ended before another was scheduled), due to there being construction on the bridge, ironically if they weren't doing repairs, the bridge wouldn't have failed. Theres no way to detect the type of failure you're talking about without redundancy in the system, which is fine if you want to build a bridge that costs double.

You don't have to have an inspection per day, though. Given the age of the bridge, bi-monthly inspections are more than feasable. These failures take place over a long period of time. Like I previously noted, a similar bridge in the area was showing signs of imminent failure similar to that of the I-35W bridge and needed to be shut down - the plate was showing signs of fatigue.

And it is erroneous to say that the cause of the failure is directly related to construction on the bridge. The bridge was supposed to be designed to carry the loads present on the day the bridge failed. In a perfect world, without material fatigue, microfractures and ice jacking, the bridge would have been able to hold. However, due to repeated loadings, one plate was eventually ripped apart and the entire structure eventually fell.

Funny you mention 75 into Oklahoma.
The quick way in Oklahoma is to take 69 and use the Indians nations turn pike. you avoid all the stop signs and 90 degree turns that way.
And again the private ran road is of much better quality.
that's just dumb to stay on 75 coming in from Tulsa. you will spend more on stopping and starting and driving in a big loop then you will on the toll.

Also the tollway goes farther north then Frisco and if you moved it eat it would be farther north then McKinney. It should be connected as a highway to US 380 by the end of the year. And that will make it a better truck route. though any trucker in a hurry and half a brain would cut over on 190 then take the tollway in for anywhere in north dallas.

If they are going through they will take 190 around to 161 and then 360 then back on I45 or I35.

I meant 75 to Durant, then 69 to the Turnpike near Joplin. I wasn't going to include all of that because it's worthless to mention in a discussion about Dallas.

Now we both know that time=money, so it's not worth it to transfer over to the tollway unless the time saved by taking the tollway can be turned into more money than the cost of taking the tollway. It costs $17.20 to take the tollway from end to end. At a reasonable profit margin of 40 cents per mile for the trucker the cost of the Dallas North Tollway is equivalent to a loss of 43 miles worth of production.

The Tollway is not 45 minutes more efficient than 75 if you have any sense of time management. Therefore Tollway /= profit.

Also this avoids the original point of the thread which is that 2 roads with dramatically different usages and different revenue sources, can be expected to have differing levels of maintenance.