NationStates Jolt Archive

One little issue that's been playing around in my mind is the idea of education reform. As a current student in the American public education system, I can't help but wonder if there's a better way of doing it. Not to say that the current system is bad ]- I just can't help but wonder how it could be better. In any case, I've decided to try to write an article for the school newspaper on the subject. What better place to get some early input and ideas than that pinnacle of knowledge, NSG?

I don't mean to restrict this discussion to American education only- it's just the system that I have the most experience in. So, NSG- If you were running a school, what would you do? How would you do it? What would you keep, what would go?

in b4 libertarians saying all schools should be private schools.

The three Rs. Reading, Righting and Rithmatic? Damn, what kind of fucking brain-dead monkey came up with that?

Okay, not that. Basic skills though. Drills. If you mess up, you get an electrical shock. Kids, sitting in chairs, periodically getting shocked when they fail to memorise properly. Times tables, phonics, and so forth. Big 10 gallon jugs full of creme at the front of the class to rub on the electrical burns at the end of each school day.

If you mess up, you get an electrical shock.

Can the teachers wear sexy dominatrix leather too?

Can the teachers wear sexy dominatrix leather too?

Well SS uniforms might be a bit beyond the pale, so yes.

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:

Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map - though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.

6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.

20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)

48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu—by a landslide.)

Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map.

Three-quarters cannot find Indonesia on a map – even after images of the tsunami and the damage it caused to this region of the world played prominently across television screens and in the pages of print media over many months in 2005.

The majority of the American young adults overestimate the total size of the US population and fail to understand how much larger the population of China is.

Three-quarters believe English is the most common spoken native language in the world, rather than Mandarin Chinese.

Only Two-thirds (67%) can find Louisiana on a US map and half (52%) can find Mississippi – leaving a third or more who cannot find these states, in spite of months of intensive media coverage of the 2005 hurricanes and their aftermath.

Let's be honest, that's worrying.

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:


Let's be honest, that's worrying.



But we at least learn about WWII and Rome.

Besides, how many Aussies know a foreign language? Ive always felt the foreign language "need" to be a bit over hyped

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:


Let's be honest, that's worrying.

Who cares, as long as they can read, write, and do multiplication tables?

Heh, don't get me started on this subject. I've written essays on it before for my own personal amusement.

I will say, in passing, that there badly needs to be much, much less focus on memorization and much, much more focus on critical thinking in everything from early elementary education up.

Who cares, as long as they can read, write, and do multiplication tables?

I think I expect the citizens of the country which virtually rules the world to know ABOUT the world.

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:


Let's be honest, that's worrying.

You know what else? Id like to see that study broken down by demographics. And it compared to other western countries. And, most of all, a new study. Thats an old(ish) one that gets thrown around a lot.

And the source you get it from. Because maybe they break it down for me on there.


But I doubt it. Statistics are meaningless without context.

The first thing that I would do to help the education system in America?

...Remove myself from the evaluation/reform process. :p

But we at least learn about WWII and Rome.

But yet, can't find your own states on a map.

Besides, how many Aussies know a foreign language? Ive always felt the foreign language "need" to be a bit over hyped

Considering the shitloads of immigrants... lots.

I don't know about the electric shocks, but yeah, I'd stress the basics.

And the classics.

And start 'em young.

And no tracking -- US public school survivors will know what I mean.

In a school run by me, work that is now reserved for high school, would be old and over by 5th grade, and work that is now reserved for college, would start in junior high/middle school. Why? Because I know for a fact that kids can handle it. The younger the better, while their brains are still sponge-like and receptive.

EDIT: Oh and a FULL curriculum, too, dammit. That means history, science, math, politics/civics, philosophy, all the stuff that falls under the grade school heading of "social studies," art, music, sports, literature, drama. All of it. Damn it.

refocusing on major basic skills
raising of standards (most NCLB tests are 8th grade or lower, but are administered to 10th graders)
elimination of high stakes testing
increase accountability for teachers
increase use of charter/pilot schools where possible
increased funding for resources, particularly in struggling school districts (most of which are urban)
increased support for families (families that read raise students that read, which increases academic performance)
increased support for new teachers
better pay for teachers
increased funding for special ed programs (which includes gifted and talented education)
increased access to afforable post-secondary education

much of this is not feasible thanks to current funding systems. It might also be time to reevaluate how we fund schools...property taxes fund most, meaning districts with higher land values get more money

One little issue that's been playing around in my mind is the idea of education reform. As a current student in the American public education system, I can't help but wonder if there's a better way of doing it. Not to say that the current system is bad ]- I just can't help but wonder how it could be better. In any case, I've decided to try to write an article for the school newspaper on the subject. What better place to get some early input and ideas than that pinnacle of knowledge, NSG?

I don't mean to restrict this discussion to American education only- it's just the system that I have the most experience in. So, NSG- If you were running a school, what would you do? How would you do it? What would you keep, what would go?

First there is no American education system. There are various cities, towns and state education systems. To change and standardize ( not give standardize test) we would have to have the federal government trump the states and local governments in powers of education.
I advocate the Finnish model top public school system in the world. I wont go into detail because someone will sidetrack me on the details, of things like special needs kids, and leave out the Fins tend to handle these cases better then we do.

Considering the shitloads of immigrants... lots.

Really? Most people born in Australia know a foreign language? Im sure you have a source for this...

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:


Let's be honest, that's worrying.

I'm curious: have you tried finding Iraq, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Indonesia on an unmarked map? How did you do?

Are you fluent in a language other than English or one spoken in your home?

Also, what does your study mean by "young Americans"?

Really? Most people born in Australia know a foreign language? Im sure you have a source for this...

98% know a foreign language. American English is considered a foreign language.

You know what else? Id like to see that study broken down by demographics. And it compared to other western countries. And, most of all, a new study. Thats an old(ish) one that gets thrown around a lot.

And the source you get it from. Because maybe they break it down for me on there.


But I doubt it. Statistics are meaningless without context.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/04-05-2006/79855-Americans-0

I really don't think this, nor this video (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BWCPAXgrm2U), needs context. EVERY SINGLE CAPABLE PERSON living in a Western country should know these sorts of thing (or localised facsimiles).

The map thing always strikes me as misleading.

Firstly, these are unmarked maps and second just because something makes the news that doesn't mean that loads of world/state maps are going to flash up within a proper context (e.g "IRAQ" with a caption of the outline of the country doesn't help someone understand where that outline fits into a world map). Also, finding countries on a map isn't exactly a vital skill so it's perhaps revealing how often it occurs in "kids are dumb" situations.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/04-05-2006/79855-Americans-0

I really don't think this, nor this video (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BWCPAXgrm2U), needs context. EVERY SINGLE CAPABLE PERSON living in a Western country should know these sorts of thing (or localised facsimiles).

Doesnt break it down by demographics. Or compare it to other western countries. Im willing to bet they score similar.

Oh, and youre throwing that video around again. Cute. We get it Rusty. You hate Americans (and blacks, and jews, etc). Good for you. When we start giving a shit about how you feel, we'll let you know.

I'm curious: have you tried finding Iraq, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Indonesia on an unmarked map? How did you do?

Are you fluent in a language other than English or one spoken in your home?


Oh, and answer that.

The US system is appalling. Some stats I dug up:


Let's be honest, that's worrying.
Says the person who wants to expunge Auschwitz from history and believes that no one knows anything about the Roman Empire or World War II.

Says the person who wants to expunge Auschwitz from history and believes that no one knows anything about the Roman Empire.

I also distinctly remember him claiming to be an expert on US politics and then saying that the House of Representatives holds all the real power and we should be more worried about that election rather then the president, who isnt that important. Oh, and he also serves eight year terms.

Says the person who wants to expunge Auschwitz from history and believes that no one knows anything about the Roman Empire.

At least I can find my country's states on a map. What's that, your people can't find their country's most populous city on a map?

The map thing always strikes me as misleading.

Firstly, these are unmarked maps and second just because something makes the news that doesn't mean that loads of world/state maps are going to flash up within a proper context (e.g "IRAQ" with a caption of the outline of the country doesn't help someone understand where that outline fits into a world map). Also, finding countries on a map isn't exactly a vital skill so it's perhaps revealing how often it occurs in "kids are dumb" situations.
An example of what's wrong with modern education.

Finding countries on a map is not a vital skill?

How about the basic brain function of shape recognition? Is that a vital skill? Ask a neurologist. How about the brain function of exercising the memory to connect a name to a shape? How about the memory and thought functions required to be aware of current events enough to recognize shapes on a new map? How about just being able to read a fucking map, you know, in case you get lost or something?

Seriously, even I who once upon a time, on this very forum, humiliatingly failed to find Argen-fucking-tina on a map of South America -- after I had identified all the other countries (sounds impossible, and yet) -- even I know that being able to find countries on a map is not just a trivia game.

EDIT: OK, I realize I just snapped your head off, but still, the point I'm trying to make is that what's wrong with modern education is that it's not teaching people to think -- to think things through -- and especially, to think before they say things. Example: Maybe thinking about WHY finding countries on a map just by shape is considered a skill that should be learned before dismissing it.

At least I can find my country's states on a map. What's that, your people can't find their country's most populous city on a map?

Whats that? The president serves for eight years? Well, youre the expert.

Find a way to make learning actually fun and interesting.

It is inherently so, but....I don't know whether to blame the personality type of most teachers, or what, but the math teachers I had for example.....were the type who really needed to get laid and smoke a doobie in a hot tub. Mean, boring, terrible.

I've read everything from the I Ching to the Chanson du Roland, the Secret History of the Mongols and so forth, but of my own accord.

Only the history teachers I ever had were able to make it interesting. A few decent English teachers.

I'm curious: have you tried finding Iraq, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Indonesia on an unmarked map? How did you do?

Iraq and Indonesia are absolutely piss easy. I don't know where the Americans states are exactly, but can tell the general area within the us.

Are you fluent in a language other than English or one spoken in your home?

No, that's due to a combination of a learning disability and my parents disagreeing on what I should learn.

Also, what does your study mean by "young Americans"?

Pfhhh, I dunno.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/04-05-2006/79855-Americans-0

I really don't think this, nor this video (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BWCPAXgrm2U), needs context. EVERY SINGLE CAPABLE PERSON living in a Western country should know these sorts of thing (or localised facsimiles).

and any comparable studies done in other countries?

Remember, Massachusetts and Minnesota outperformed their counterparts on the TIMSS exam.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/12/14/beating_the_curve_in_science/

Again, there is no "American education system". There are hundreds of education systems in each state, let alone across the nation.

Find a way to make learning actually fun and interesting.

It is inherently so, but....I don't know whether to blame the personality type of most teachers, or what, but the math teachers I had for example.....were the type who really needed to get laid and smoke a doob in a hot tub. Mean, boring, terrible.

I've read everything from the I Ching to the Song of Roland, the Aeneid, the Secret History of the Mongols and so forth, but of my own accord.

Only the history teachers I ever had were able to make it interesting. A few decent English teachers.

NSG- If you were running a school, what would you do?
Err run it like my old school, which was ace. Just good-quality teaching right there.

and any comparable studies done in other countries?


No, because its not fashionable to pick on Europe at the moment.


Remember, Massachusetts and Minnesota outperformed their counterparts on the TIMSS exam.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/12/14/beating_the_curve_in_science/

Again, there is no "American education system". There are hundreds of education systems in each state, let alone across the nation.

This too.

A complete re-vamp focused on the ability to find and evaluate resources in order to solve a specific problem, problems start as single-subject issues, mathematics, historic, scientific or whatever and then move to require the knowledge of different subjects, where a student hasn't focused on one area, highly encouraged to find and work with another student who has.

Greater leeway in the student finding their own rabbit-hole of interest where the teacher is more a guide than an instructor, showing how different disciplines can help when solving larger, more complex problems.

Gradual integration of group coordination to work together on larger issues, practical follow throughs on solutions and evaluation of results.

Something like that, haven't thought out details but less subject-focused and more showing how different subjects can all be used to solve different issues, much more on coordination and learning from each other.

There's studies that show how children learn quicker from each other than from instruction,

I'll get around to it, I have an economic crisis to solve right now.

But yet, can't find your own states on a map.If I recall correctly, we happen to posess just a wee bit more states than Australia does. :p (Your, what, six to our fifty? And your...two territories to our...six. IIRC.)

Not that that excuses it, but memorization is not the strong point of the US student, as is quite obvious from your own statistics that you posted earlier.

Iraq and Indonesia are absolutely piss easy. I don't know where the Americans states are exactly, but can tell the general area within the us.



No, that's due to a combination of a learning disability and my parents disagreeing on what I should learn.



Pfhhh, I dunno.

why do I get the feeling you couldn't even name the six states of your own country.

Oh, and he also serves eight year terms.

For the final time: I already knew that. I would have to, because I followed the 2000, 2004 and 2008 elections. I said that I count Obama's presidency as running until 2016, because I KNOW he will be re-elected.

If I recall correctly, we happen to posess just a wee bit more states than Australia does. :p (Your, what, six to our fifty? And your...two territories to our...six. IIRC.)

Not that that excuses it, but memorization is not the strong point of the US student, as is quite obvious from your own statistics that you posted earlier.

GF, I'm mentally retarded. If I can pinpoint Iraq on a map, so can every single capable American.

why do I get the feeling you couldn't even name the six states of your own country.

I get that feeling too. STAY OUT OF MY MIND!
For the final time: I already knew that. I would have to, because I followed the 2000, 2004 and 2008 elections. I said that I count Obama's presidency as running until 2016, because I KNOW he will be re-elected.

Believe it or not, I remember what you said. That wasnt it.

But hey, what do I know? I thought the president was more important/had more power then the US House of Representatives.

But youre the expert.

Find a way to make learning actually fun and interesting.

It is inherently so, but....I don't know whether to blame the personality type of most teachers, or what, but the math teachers I had for example.....were the type who really needed to get laid and smoke a doob in a hot tub. Mean, boring, terrible.

I've read everything from the I Ching to the Song of Roland, the Aeneid and so forth, but of my own accord.

Only the history teachers I ever had were able to make it interesting. A few decent English teachers.

For the final time: I already knew that.

suuuuure you did.

Believe it or not, I remember what you said. That wasnt it.

Uh, no it's not. Go ahead, dig it up. I know I didn't say it, because I didn't say it.

But hey, what do I know? I thought the president was more important/had more power then the US House of Representatives.

which totally WASN'T elected this last election, by the way.

Again, there is no "American education system". There are hundreds of education systems in each state, let alone across the nation.Which makes it very hard to reform it, no? ;)

why do I get the feeling you couldn't even name the six states of your own country.

Western Australia, South Australia, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, territories Aus Capital Territory and Northern Territory.

suuuuure you did.

Yeah, that's right, I was upset Gore and Kerry lost the non-elections.

which totally WASN'T elected this last election, by the way.
Are you disagreeing with the expert?
Western Australia, South Australia, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, territories Aus Capital Territory and Northern Territory.
Youre google-fu is strong.

At least I can find my country's states on a map. What's that, your people can't find their country's most populous city on a map?Your country has 6 states, and two major territories. Your country has 18 cities with populations over 100,000. 7 have over 500,000.

The United States has 50 states, one federal district, and 3 (what I would call) major territories. It has over 262 cities with populations over 100,000. 34 are over 500,000.

A bit more to learn there.

Iraq and Indonesia are absolutely piss easy. I don't know where the Americans states are exactly, but can tell the general area within the us.Your study conveniently doesn't give points for "general area". I could point to any nation except Iraq, be it Iran or South Africa, and I'm wrong. I could point to Malasia instead of Indonesia, and it is marked equally as if I pointed to Peru.

Western Australia, South Australia, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, territories Aus Capital Territory and Northern Territory.

oooh somebody knows how to find Wikipedia.

Youre google-fu is strong.

Way to be the bigger man. Believe what you want.

Way to be the bigger man.

Thank you:fluffle:

GF, I'm mentally retarded. If I can pinpoint Iraq on a map, so can every single capable American.Or, you know, these "young Americans" could just "not care" about some "stupid quiz that the teachers are making us take...again".

Learning is boring as fuck in America. There's nothing interesting about it. Why should I waste my time on something so pointlessly dull?

(No, I don't use this reasoning, but I'm sure there are students who do.)

*ego*

*ego*

*ego*

Give it a rest for the sake of all that is good about humanity...

Believe what you want.

don't worry, we will.

An example of what's wrong with modern education.

Finding countries on a map is not a vital skill?

How about the basic brain function of shape recognition? Is that a vital skill? Ask a neurologist. How about the brain function of exercising the memory to connect a name to a shape? How about the memory and thought functions required to be aware of current events enough to recognize shapes on a new map? How about just being able to read a fucking map, you know, in case you get lost or something?

Seriously, even I who once upon a time, on this very forum, humiliatingly failed to find Argen-fucking-tina on a map of South America -- after I had identified all the other countries (sounds impossible, and yet) -- even I know that being able to find countries on a map is not just a trivia game.

EDIT: OK, I realize I just snapped your head off, but still, the point I'm trying to make is that what's wrong with modern education is that it's not teaching people to think -- to think things through -- and especially, to think before they say things. Example: Maybe thinking about WHY finding countries on a map just by shape is considered a skill that should be learned before dismissing it.

I'm not dismissing it but I am saying that if one considers the objectives of education, finding states and countries on maps wouldn't comprise half of those objectives. Or a tenth. Or a percent and so on.

But they do comprise a huge amount of stats on how dumb kids/Americans are and I think that's because the way they are presented makes it sound a lot more obvious than it actually is. I think finding Iraq on an umarked map isn't as basic as it is being made out to be.

And whilst reading a map is useful if you get lost, I'd humbly suggest that if you're reaching for a world map then you're probably really, really lost :p

Thank you:fluffle:

is that...the symbol of nurgle?

Which makes it very hard to reform it, no? ;)

Quite. Though, Title 1 categorical funding (NCLB is an aspect of this, though Title 1 has been around for a long time) did give the feds a unique and strangely constitutional way to influence schools.

Give it a rest for the sake of all that is good about humanity...

The difference is, Neo Art and I have a right to be into ourselves.;)


Anyway, best way to improve the American education system? Actually fund it. Then they can make teaching a profitable career, update materials, etc.

is that...the symbol of nurgle?

Damn straight.;)

And whilst reading a map is useful if you get lost, I'd humbly suggest that if you're reaching for a world map then you're probably really, really lost :pI lol'd. :D

It should also be mentioned that, while Japan is regularly ranked as a top school system, they are currently looking at the US for ways to increase creativity.

At least I can find my country's states on a map. What's that, your people can't find their country's most populous city on a map?
Let's compare shall we?

http://www.travelnotes.org/1800/Australia/images/australia_regions.gif
Six regions. Wow.

http://www.onlineatlas.us/map/united-states-map.gif
Fifty states. Wow.

Yeah, no difference there at all.

In the US: 25,375 towns, cities, and villages. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=509183

In Australia: 212 http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/2005_world_city_populations/Australia.html

Please don't mind if I feel utterly UNDERWHELMED by your ability to identify six territories and FLATTERED that you think Americans should be able to memorize the coordinates of over 25,000 cities.

http://www.kunskapsskolan.se/foretaget/inenglish.4.1d32e45f86b8ae04c7fff213.html

^like this

I do run a school...a very small one..two students.

I'm not dismissing it but I am saying that if one considers the objectives of education, finding states and countries on maps wouldn't comprise half of those objectives. Or a tenth. Or a percent and so on.

The more you learn, the more you CAN learn.

But they do comprise a huge amount of stats on how dumb kids/Americans are and I think that's because the way they are presented makes it sound a lot more obvious than it actually is. I think finding Iraq on an umarked map isn't as basic as it is being made out to be.

No, it really is. It has a very distinctive shape and sits on the edge of the Persian Gulf.

Uh, no it's not. Go ahead, dig it up. I know I didn't say it, because I didn't say it.

Are these quotes embarassing enough?

Yes. The House/Senate elections. The one that ACTUALLY DECIDES who's in power. As opposed to the presidential election, which decides which useless fucker is told what to do by the House for the next four years.

Question: Why in god's name do Americans have their ACTUAL election two years after their presidential election?

Quite. Though, Title 1 categorical funding (NCLB is an aspect of this, though Title 1 has been around for a long time) did give the feds a unique and strangely constitutional way to influence schools.I really, really hate NCLB as is.

Are these quotes embarassing enough?

Are you arguing with the expert?

Your study conveniently doesn't give points for "general area". I could point to any nation except Iraq, be it Iran or South Africa, and I'm wrong. I could point to Malasia instead of Indonesia, and it is marked equally as if I pointed to Peru.
It's because learning is not actually the point of the exercise. Only performing the trick matters. How you got the answer doesn't. With such standards, a trained chicken could pass such a test.

On the other hand, if you don't know where a country is, but you figure out where it is likely to be based on what you know about it and applying thought to things like what language its name sounds like, whether it's been in the news lately, etc., all that requires the student not only to know more stuff in general, but also to think in a creative and more challenging way.

And that's harder to grade.

Are these quotes embarassing enough?

wow, they're worse than I remember.

Please don't mind if I feel utterly UNDERWHELMED by your ability to identify six territories and FLATTERED that you think Americans should be able to memorize the coordinates of over 25,000 cities.We have as many territories as they have states. It's pretty funny. :p

Are you arguing with the expert?

why do you have a symbol of nurgle?

Yeah, the school system sucks.....I blame the Republicans, lol...

You want to really learn things, study on your own....

Let's compare shall we?

http://www.travelnotes.org/1800/Australia/images/australia_regions.gif
Six regions. Wow.

http://www.onlineatlas.us/map/united-states-map.gif
Fifty states. Wow.

Yeah, no difference there at all.

In the US: 25,375 towns, cities, and villages. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=509183

In Australia: 212 http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/2005_world_city_populations/Australia.html

Please don't mind if I feel utterly UNDERWHELMED by your ability to identify six territories and FLATTERED that you think Americans should be able to memorize the coordinates of over 25,000 cities.

Americans should be able to locate at least the major cities. Not 25000, but the major ones. I wouldn't expect them to find capitals, as the capitals are usually held at smaller cities within states. I would expect them know where the likes of NYC, LA and Houston are.

Anyway, best way to improve the American education system? Actually fund it. Then they can make teaching a profitable career, update materials, etc.




It is not a funding issue. According to the Organization for Economic Operation and Development, the US is tied in first place for the amount of money spent per student with Switzerland.

the issue seem more of a management issue. well that and perhaps wastefulness on the part of the states.

*edit to fix forgotten word*

why do you have a symbol of nurgle?

Cause Im awesome like that.

Im a chaos player remember? Nurgle rules.

Americans should be able to locate at least the major cities. Not 25000, but the major ones. I wouldn't expect them to find capitals, as the capitals are usually held at smaller cities within states. I would expect them know where the likes of NYC, LA and Houston are.

Well....Idk about Houston....Atlanta and Chicago are better, lol...

Are these quotes embarassing enough?

So what? I admitted I was wrong on that one. Why should I even be expect to understand your stupid nonsensical system? This is the country that has the electoral college and uses Imperial measurements.

I really, really hate NCLB as is.
haha...I actually talked about NCLB very briefly with Neo a few days back...it isn't a good law by any stretch, but there are several aspects that are actually quite good about it. It makes an attempt that now needs to be looked at and fixed.
It's because learning is not actually the point of the exercise. Only performing the trick matters. How you got the answer doesn't. With such standards, a trained chicken could pass such a test.

On the other hand, if you don't know where a country is, but you figure out where it is likely to be based on what you know about it and applying thought to things like what language its name sounds like, whether it's been in the news lately, etc., all that requires the student not only to know more stuff in general, but also to think in a creative and more challenging way.

And that's harder to grade.
Exactly. This is my problem with high stakes standardized testing (mind you, standardized testing does have a vital place in education)...anyone can spit back information. It takes alot more to actually problem solve...information, creativity, logic, reason, and knowing what one does not know, and how to find it.

So what? I admitted I was wrong on that one. Why should I even be expect to understand your stupid nonsensical system?

Because youve constantly claimed that you do?

I'm not dismissing it but I am saying that if one considers the objectives of education, finding states and countries on maps wouldn't comprise half of those objectives. Or a tenth. Or a percent and so on.

But they do comprise a huge amount of stats on how dumb kids/Americans are and I think that's because the way they are presented makes it sound a lot more obvious than it actually is. I think finding Iraq on an umarked map isn't as basic as it is being made out to be.

And whilst reading a map is useful if you get lost, I'd humbly suggest that if you're reaching for a world map then you're probably really, really lost :p
Well, what do you think are the "objectives" of education?

I think the objective of education should be to send people out into the world with both a varied kit of useful information and a fully fledged, agile and exercised brain capable of learning on its own, without a test at the end for them to ace for validation.

If part of the point of education is to exercise the brain, then the map exercise is useful -- not for learning the countries because those are likely to change anyway, but for the mental/neurological exercises I mentioned in that post, and for the critical judgment and comparative thought exercises I mention in another post.

So what? I admitted I was wrong on that one. Why should I even be expect to understand your stupid nonsensical system? This is the country that has the electoral college and uses Imperial measurements.

you stupid people don't know anything about your dumb system that I don't understand!

No, it really is. It has a very distinctive shape and sits on the edge of the Persian Gulf.

Once you want to be able to find Iraq on a map, there's no excuse for not being able to. But a lot of kids are just going about their lives - they learn through classes not through coverage of current affairs. They're just a little ignorant and sure there's room for improvement but I don't think it's fair to treat it as damning.

Cause Im awesome like that.

Im a chaos player remember? Nurgle rules.

we should get 4 people to all put their avatars of the various gods. I'll be slaanesh!

we should get 4 people to all put their avatars of the various gods.

Agreed.

I'll be slaanesh!

Who woulda thunk it?;)

Americans should be able to locate at least the major cities. Not 25000, but the major ones. I wouldn't expect them to find capitals, as the capitals are usually held at smaller cities within states. I would expect them know where the likes of NYC, LA and Houston are.

What are we qualifying as a "major" city? Population? How big does a city have to be for that? How about economic output? Cultural output? Name recognition? Qualification as a world city?

Well, what do you think are the "objectives" of education?

I think the objective of education should be to send people out into the world with both a varied kit of useful information and a fully fledged, agile and exercised brain capable of learning on its own, without a test at the end for them to ace for validation.

If part of the point of education is to exercise the brain, then the map exercise is useful -- not for learning the countries because those are likely to change anyway, but for the mental/neurological exercises I mentioned in that post, and for the critical judgment and comparative though exercises I mention in another post.

Yeah, so that stat shows that we've fallen short of that ideal. We agreed on that. But what I was trying to argue is that maybe it's not been missed by as much as the repeated use of 'can't find x on a map' stats would suggest

This is the country that has the electoral college and uses Imperial measurements.Is there something wrong with Imperial measurements? Or is it just "They're not like us! *shun*"?

What are we qualifying as a "major" city? Population? How big does a city have to be for that? How about economic output? Cultural output? Name recognition? Qualification as a world city?

Probably all of that.

Is there something wrong with Imperial measurements? Or is it just "They're not like us! *shun*"?

It's illogical. Metric just makes so much more sense.

But what I was trying to argue is that maybe it's not been missed by as much as the repeated use of 'can't find x on a map' stats would suggestI think I understand what you're saying. The 'can't find x on map' argument is being overplayed, while the achievements of the education system are downplayed to make it look worse than it actually is?

Americans should be able to locate at least the major cities. Not 25000, but the major ones. I wouldn't expect them to find capitals, as the capitals are usually held at smaller cities within states. I would expect them know where the likes of NYC, LA and Houston are.
Duh, NYC is in NY state, comprised of five boroughs, three major islands (and several smaller ones) and the mainland, Houston is in Texas, and LA is in California.

It's illogical. Metric just makes so much more sense.Only because everybody else uses it, right? ;)

So we're back to "They're not like us! *shun*.

Yeah, so that stat shows that we've fallen short of that ideal. We agreed on that. But what I was trying to argue is that maybe it's not been missed by as much as the repeated use of 'can't find x on a map' stats would suggest

I'm just of the opinion that if you invade a country, you should know where is it. Especially if it's being blasted into your head by the media.

Stop standardizing people towards tests and ranking them on how well they conform to standards.

Start putting pressure/emphasis on studies and their application, rather than merely studying information.

Start putting more emphasis on American history from both history textbooks and something like Zinn's A People's History, rather than just on textbooks.




If anything, our colleges are world renown... the only complication is getting the masses below the collegiate level to care about their education.

Duh, NYC is in NY state, comprised of five boroughs, three major islands (and several smaller ones) and the mainland, Houston is in Texas, and LA is in California.

Congratulations, you're educated. Lots of Americans wouldn't know those answers.

I'm just of the opinion that if you invade a country, you should know where is it. Especially if it's being blasted into your head by the media.Who is this "you"?

I do hope you aren't suggesting that the students decided that we should invade Afghanistan or Iraq.

Who is this "you"?

I do hope you aren't suggesting that the students decided that we should invade Afghanistan or Iraq.

it's our new military strategy. "Send in the 13 year olds!"

I really, really hate NCLB as is.
Agreed. Let's see what the new Pres. does with it. Hopefully the bit about mandatory reporting of personal data of students to the armed services unless their parents are savvy enough to opt out will be expunged, along with the actual educational problems I have with it.

Only because everybody else uses it, right? ;)

So we're back to "They're not like us! *shun*.

No, it's just generally illogical, especially when placed against metric, which follows the model of base-10.

Base-10 itself is a big kick in the balls, but it's too late to change that now, so it makes sense that measurements, currency and other numerical systems match it.

Yeah, so that stat shows that we've fallen short of that ideal. We agreed on that. But what I was trying to argue is that maybe it's not been missed by as much as the repeated use of 'can't find x on a map' stats would suggest
I disagree with you, but not because I have such faith in the "they can't find x on a map" standard. Like I said Sarkhaan, a trained chicken could pass such tests. Passing them is not a sign of a good education.

However, looking at the more general picture of what I see Americans doing and what I hear them saying, I would have to say that I do not give American schools much credit, in general. Obviously, that's a generalization, but in general, there is a shitload of preventable idiocy around these days.

EDIT: Do you think I said "general" enough to avoid a lot of pointless shouts of "that's just a generalization!"?

I think schools should pretty much be made up of a series of Jigsaw games. The kids who loses, well they just didn't cut it. That way, we'll only have geniuses in the graduating classes....geniuses who are crippled....but geniuses neverless!

Seriously though, here's a question I've been wondering. Politicians are always trying to say that they're in touch with the common man, and that public school is good enough for us, and yet they send their kids to private schools.

Why don't they put their money where their mouth is and send their kids to public school too?

How about it Obama? Send your daughters to public school!

At least Amy Carter went to public school!

It's illogical. Metric just makes so much more sense.

Idk, I think it depends on which end of the Spectrum youre on....

Like, above the Base measurement (meter, gram, etc) It works fine, but it gets confusing as hell when you get into the smaller measurements (nano, micro, etc)...

If youre good with fractions, as am I, and not so good with excessive decimals, as am I, lol, the Standard System works better for smaller measurements, IMO....

How about it Obama? Send your daughters to public school!

....riiiiiight. Yeah, I'm sure the secret service would love for the Obama girls to go to a D.C. public school

Congratulations, you're educated. Lots of Americans wouldn't know those answers.
Congratulations, you cover yourself in glory every time you type.

....riiiiiight. Yeah, I'm sure the secret service would love for the Obama girls to go to a D.C. public school

Hey if it's good enough for Amy, it's good enough for Obama's children.

....riiiiiight. Yeah, I'm sure the secret service would love for the Obama girls to go to a D.C. public school

He has secret service?


WHERE IS TEH CHANGE OBAMA?!?!1!?!11

....riiiiiight. Yeah, I'm sure the secret service would love for the Obama girls to go to a D.C. public school

He's just making good on his promise to be Bipartisan with the Libertarians, thats all, lol....

Congratulations, you're educated. Lots of Americans wouldn't know those answers.

Um......seriously? I live in a state with about the stupidest people on average in the country, and I don't know anyone who doesn't know that, aside from small children and some senile old people.

it's our new military strategy. "Send in the 13 year olds!"Yes, lets.

Agreed. Let's see what the new Pres. does with it. Hopefully the bit about mandatory reporting of personal data of students to the armed services unless their parents are savvy enough to opt out will be expunged, along with the actual educational problems I have with it.Well, the part about mandatory reporting made it easier for me to talk to recruiters from the armed forces, but that's just me. I can understand why most people wouldn't want it to be mandatory. Perhaps optional?

Um......seriously? I live in a state with about the stupidest people on average in the country, and I don't know anyone who doesn't know that, aside from small children and some senile old people.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!! :mad:

Thats our title your trying to get here!!! lol :p

Who is this "you"?

I do hope you aren't suggesting that the students decided that we should invade Afghanistan or Iraq.

Of course not, but if your country goes into a major war, I'd expect the citizens to know where it's happening.

Congratulations, you're educated. Lots of Americans wouldn't know those answers.

Congratulations. You know where NYC, Houston and LA are.

...







>.>

...

Yeah, this really tells a lot about a person. I mean, basic map skills are a necessity, but if you really think that it's a major thing, then you're naive.

Yes, lets.

Well, the part about mandatory reporting made it easier for me to talk to recruiters from the armed forces, but that's just me. I can understand why most people wouldn't want it to be mandatory. Perhaps optional?
If they reversed it: "Check here if you want recruiters to get your info" rather than, "If we don't hear anything, we'll call/send info" I wouldn't have a problem with it.

He has secret service?


WHERE IS TEH CHANGE OBAMA?!?!1!?!11I lol'd. Twice.

Hey if it's good enough for Amy, it's good enough for Obama's children.Hell, yeah. :D

Of course not, but if your country goes into a major war, I'd expect the citizens to know where it's happening.What is a "major" war?

I lol'd. Twice.

Hell, yeah. :D

What is a "major" war?
I kind of think any war we engage in is a major one... even if it's to invade East Bumfuck.

If they reversed it: "Check here if you want recruiters to get your info" rather than, "If we don't hear anything, we'll call/send info" I wouldn't have a problem with it.Agreed. I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I do see where you're coming from.

Yeah, this really tells a lot about a person. I mean, basic map skills are a necessity, but if you really think that it's a major thing, then you're naive.

1) Again, the more you learn, the more you CAN learn.
2) It's important to know the world around you. Remember that the children of today will ideally become the lawyers, architects, CEOs, presidents of tomorrow. You really want another president like Bush?

Of course not, but if your country goes into a major war, I'd expect the citizens to know where it's happening.

In all seriousness....the United States has a Population of 305,701,000...

To compare that with a country like, Australia with a population of 19,855,288...

Is Ludicrous, The average, as in Lowest Common Denominator of a population that size is obviously going to be much much lower on the spectrum than the average of a smaller population like Australia...

I kind of think any war we engage in is a major one... even if it's to invade East Bumfuck....The way he said it implied that there were "minor" wars. I wanted to know his definition for a "major" war.

even if it's to invade East Bumfuck.

They had WMDs. Why do you hate America?

Why do you hate America?Because it's in style to hate America.

Because it's in style to hate America.

I did hear somewhere that was supposed to Change though......

In all seriousness....the United States has a Population of 305,701,000...

To compare that with a country like, Australia with a population of 19,855,288...

Is Ludicrous, The average, as in Lowest Common Denominator of a population that size is obviously going to be much much lower on the spectrum than the average of a smaller population like Australia...

Are you actually saying that because your population is bigger, your dumb should be expected to be more dumb, than our dumb?

Are you actually saying that because your population is bigger, your dumb should be expected to be more dumb, than our dumb?

There is no evidence that our "dumb" is "dumber" than your "dumb". Thats why your little list of stastics is worthless.

Are you actually saying that because your population is bigger, your dumb should be expected to be more dumb, than our dumb?

Not necessarily...more like a Larger Base number of Dumb People, due to a larger Population...


Id be more interested to see how we compare to China or India....

Are you actually saying that because your population is bigger, your dumb should be expected to be more dumb, than our dumb?No, he's not saying that at all, and you know it.

...And "dumb", seriously? What?

They had WMDs. Why do you hate America?
I don't. I distinctly remember not threatening to go to Canada over the past eight years... or threatening to leave now that the Real Americans(tm) party is no longer in office.

I don't. I distinctly remember not threatening to go to Canada over the past eight years... or threatening to leave now that the Real Americans(tm) party is no longer in office.

Youre not a Real American? Do you hate freedom? Eastern elitest...

No, he's not saying that at all, and you know it.

...And "dumb", seriously? What?

How do YOU know I wasnt ? :confused:



:eek: GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!

I did hear somewhere that was supposed to Change though......I heard, such a fantastic rumor. I wonder if has a seed of truth.

No, he's not saying that at all, and you know it.

...And "dumb", seriously? What?

I think I misread it.

How do YOU know I wasnt ? :confused:



:eek: GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!But it's so comfortable in here. All nice and empty. :p

But it's so comfortable in here. All nice and empty. :p

Thats only to make room for this....



http://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/world-map.gif



....Apparently its the only skill worth having, lol....

Anyway, best way to improve the American education system? Actually fund it. Then they can make teaching a profitable career, update materials, etc.

/\!!!THIS!!!/\

In other news, my school district has been told to cut $26 million from its budget. Which means layoffs, which means an even lower rate of educators to children in a state that is already dead last. Cheers!

It's because learning is not actually the point of the exercise. Only performing the trick matters. How you got the answer doesn't. With such standards, a trained chicken could pass such a test.

On the other hand, if you don't know where a country is, but you figure out where it is likely to be based on what you know about it and applying thought to things like what language its name sounds like, whether it's been in the news lately, etc., all that requires the student not only to know more stuff in general, but also to think in a creative and more challenging way.

And that's harder to grade.

This is why I always stress teaching Latin roots. Because someday a kid's going to need to know what circumnavigate means and there won't BE a dictionary around to look it up in. Plus they totally help on freerice.com.

This is why I always stress teaching Latin roots. Because someday a kid's going to need to know what circumnavigate means and there won't BE a dictionary around to look it up in. Plus they totally help on freerice.com.

Circumnavigate isn't exactly an obscure word...

/\!!!THIS!!!/\

In other news, my school district has been told to cut $26 million from its budget. Which means layoffs, which means an even lower rate of educators to children in a state that is already dead last. Cheers!

Education should be close to the last thing cut. Isn't there anything else worth cutting?

This is why I always stress teaching Latin roots. Because someday a kid's going to need to know what circumnavigate means and there won't BE a dictionary around to look it up in. Plus they totally help on freerice.com.

http://www.amazon.com/English-Roots-Up-Vol-T/dp/0964321033

That's a really good book, the kids and I enjoy that series.

Education should be close to the last thing cut. Isn't there anything else worth cutting?

Well there are those pesky veterans and the Welfare people. :p

Well there are those pesky veterans and the Welfare people. :p

Shouldnt they have already had an Education? :p

In all seriousness....the United States has a Population of 305,701,000...

To compare that with a country like, Australia with a population of 19,855,288...

Is Ludicrous, The average, as in Lowest Common Denominator of a population that size is obviously going to be much much lower on the spectrum than the average of a smaller population like Australia...

California now officially has more people than Canada. I don't know if I'm proud or scared or what.

Shouldnt they have already had an Education? :p

Rusty was asking if there was something else we could cut. Funding to Welfare and Veterans would be one route. :p j/k of course.

Circumnavigate isn't exactly an obscure word...

Strangely, even common words have to get encountered for the first time once per person. Go figure!

Circumnavigate isn't exactly an obscure word...

It is to many six-year-olds. Which I teach. Try to keep up.

Strangely, even common words have to get encountered for the first time once per person. Go figure!

Psh, says you, I believe that words are like life, Spontaneous Generation! lol

Strangely, even common words have to get encountered for the first time once per person. Go figure!

Only if you're a stupid American. Everyone else is born with that word inside their head--even if they don't speak English!

Strangely, even common words have to get encountered for the first time once per person. Go figure!

Yeah, but it seems like something that should turn up in school.

Yeah, but it seems like something that should turn up in school.

Look at the OP.

Now look back here.

I'M TALKING ABOUT TEACHING LATIN ROOTS IN SCHOOL.

Look at the OP.

Now look back here.

I'M TALKING ABOUT TEACHING LATIN ROOTS IN SCHOOL.

Teaching what exactly ABOUT Latin roots? Teaching where they come from? Teaching a bunch of Latin root words for the sake of teaching them?

Teaching what exactly ABOUT Latin roots? Teaching where they come from? Teaching a bunch of Latin root words for the sake of teaching them?

...seriously. You really may want to consider giving up this thread now.

...seriously. You really may want to consider giving up this thread now.

Maybe you should explain exactly what you want to teach.

Teaching a bunch of Latin root words for the sake of teaching them?

That actually raises standardized test scores by a lot.

I was doing that with my ESL kids earlier this week: Latin and Greek root words, prefixes and suffixes to help them figure out new words they might come across.

They had fun -- I broke them into two groups and had them compete to see which side of the room could figure out the definitions first.

Maybe you should explain exactly what you want to teach.
She did. It's not her fault you don't understand her.

I was doing that with my ESL kids earlier this week: Latin and Greek root words, prefixes and suffixes to help them figure out new words they might come across.

They had fun -- I broke them into two groups and had them compete to see which side of the room could figure out the definitions first.

Actually, I wish theydve done that when I was in Elementary, I only knew a few basic Latin prefixes and suffixes....

But, now that im in College Anatomy and Physiology, and before that BIO I...It really wouldve came in handy...

She did. It's not her fault you don't understand her.

I told you I'm retarded, what more do you want? Do you go around trying to make me feel bad?

I told you I'm retarded, what more do you want? Do you go around trying to make me feel bad?

Well....Now that you mention it....>.>...

Im sorry, j/k, I couldnt help it, lol...

I was doing that with my ESL kids earlier this week: Latin and Greek root words, prefixes and suffixes to help them figure out new words they might come across.

They had fun -- I broke them into two groups and had them compete to see which side of the room could figure out the definitions first.

Wow, ok. We learn words alongside something called "context". I'm sure your way is good too.

I told you I'm retarded, what more do you want?

For you to get off the regular internet and ride the short internet for special people.

For you to get off the regular internet and ride the short internet for special people.

win

I told you I'm retarded, what more do you want? Do you go around trying to make me feel bad?
Well. perhaps then you shouldn't be telling other people they are stupid while demonstrating your lack of knowledge on the same subject?

And perhaps you shouldn't present yourself as an expert on another country's political and educational systems, insist that you're right as people roundly refute you, then pull out the pity card 'but I'm not responsible for what I say because I'm retarded'?

Just a couple of thoughts there.

Wow, ok. We learn words alongside something called "context". I'm sure your way is good too.
Wow, ok, we learn them that way too, it's just that we actually realize that there are a variety of ways to learn something and you use different tools for different methods. There's this theory of multiple intelligences, and pretty much it recognizes that people learn in different ways, and the most efficient way to get a group to understand something is to use the tools best suited to their style of learning.

Well. perhaps then you shouldn't be telling other people they are stupid while demonstrating your lack of knowledge on the same subject?

And perhaps you shouldn't present yourself as an expert on another country's political and educational systems, insist that you're right as people roundly refute you, then pull out the pity card 'but I'm not responsible for what I say because I'm retarded'?

Just a couple of thoughts there.

Congratulations, you're smarter than somebody with severe mental disabilities, you must be extremely proud.

How the hell am I meant to know what "teach Latin roots" means? It's an three word description of one aspect of language study. It's like me walking into a PHP class and saying "Ok, today we're learning ?>".

Congratulations, you're smarter than somebody with severe mental disabilities, you must be extremely proud.

How the hell am I meant to know what "teach Latin roots" means? It's an three word description of one aspect of language study. It's like me walking into a PHP class and saying "Ok, today we're learning ?>".
Congratulations, I don't believe for an instant that your mental disabilities are anything more than a ploy to behave badly, insult others, then try to make them look like they're bullying you when it's clear that you've been refuted.

Latin roots are part of the English language, which you do speak and write, and your assessment of the word circumnavigate as a word that is "hardly obscure" would speak for your vocabulary skills and comprehension skills.. Since Latin roots are often taught in the primary grades here, and the US system of education is clearly inferior to the Australian system, it's difficult to believe that they have never come up in or out of context in school there. This becomes more difficult to believe when one finds evidence of journals on how to teach exactly this topic in Middle School in Aus. http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=451830327253257;res=E-LIBRARY

Congratulations, you're smarter than somebody with severe mental disabilities, you must be extremely proud.


Um, Lolwut?

Youre not actually claiming that Americans are supposedly much less intelligent than Australians...then after being refuted claim you have Mental Disabilities...



Tell me Im not reading that right....please......

Congratulations, I don't believe for an instant that your mental disabilities are anything more than a ploy to behave badly, insult others, then try to make them look like they're bullying you when it's clear that you've been refuted.

Ahh, the old "You're not mentally handicapped, you can walk and talk!". Story of my life.

This is getting off topic.

Ahh, the old "You're not mentally handicapped, you can walk and talk!". Story of my life.

This is getting off topic.

you overplayed your hand and got called. Suck it up.

I would like to actually hear some more ideas about improving education, if anyone has any.

I would like to actually hear some more ideas about improving education, if anyone has any.

more hot teachers.

You're part of what I like the call the "beta program"

you overplayed your hand and got called. Suck it up.

I don't see what I did wrong.

I would like to actually hear some more ideas about improving education, if anyone has any.

Oh thats what this thread was about...right...

Well, for one, I hear that NCLB bases Funding on Standardized Test Scores...


I think thats just idiocy, because not only does it deny funding to schools most in need of it, but it also prompts many to lower the standards of the standardized tests in order to get more funding....

Congratulations, you're smarter than somebody with severe mental disabilities, you must be extremely proud.

How the hell am I meant to know what "teach Latin roots" means? It's an three word description of one aspect of language study. It's like me walking into a PHP class and saying "Ok, today we're learning ?>".

Trying to pull that on kat is like me attempting to bluff my way past Peter Eastgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Eastgate). You should know better rust.

I don't see what I did wrong.

lying, for a start.

lying, for a start.

Lying about what?

Oh thats what this thread was about...right...

Well, for one, I hear that NCLB bases Funding on Standardized Test Scores...


I think thats just idiocy, because not only does it deny funding to schools most in need of it, but it also prompts many to lower the standards of the standardized tests in order to get more funding....

Standardised testing is a mistake in itself. It's asinine to give tests to kindergartners.

more hot teachers.

You're part of what I like the call the "beta program"

Ironically, it's all wasted on my little ones. Although one of them does have a hot uncle.

Well, for one, I hear that NCLB bases Funding on Standardized Test Scores...

I think thats just idiocy, because not only does it deny funding to schools most in need of it, but it also prompts many to lower the standards of the standardized tests in order to get more funding....

It doesn't lower the standards so much as it encourages blatant cheating and score manipulation. I had to give a fishbowl demonstration with my grade level colleagues on testing and data recording (yes, it is just as mind-numbing as it sounds!) and you wouldn't believe the panic teachers were in about the whole thing, complaining about deadlines, cutoffs, what's considered "benchmark", etc. The worst complainers were the teachers at the very best schools--because more rigorous testing means their high scores can go down, while Title 1 schools like mine are generally improving every year. It was so irritating.

Oh thats what this thread was about...right...

Well, for one, I hear that NCLB bases Funding on Standardized Test Scores...


I think thats just idiocy, because not only does it deny funding to schools most in need of it, but it also prompts many to lower the standards of the standardized tests in order to get more funding....
There is a catch though, in the form of the NAEP...states that show outstandingly high results on state tests (South Carolina) but fail on the NAEP get called out.

Standardised testing is a mistake in itself. It's asinine to give tests to kindergartners.
That isn't an aspect of standardized testing inherently, nor is it practiced that I know of.

Standardised testing is a mistake in itself. It's asinine to give tests to kindergartners.

Idk about that, I think it can be used as one of the measures of how well students are doing...

But, basing funding, or decision making on it does seem a little ridiculous...

Ironically, it's all wasted on my little ones. Although one of them does have a hot uncle.



It doesn't lower the standards so much as it encourages blatant cheating and score manipulation. I had to give a fishbowl demonstration with my grade level colleagues on testing and data recording (yes, it is just as mind-numbing as it sounds!) and you wouldn't believe the panic teachers were in about the whole thing, complaining about deadlines, cutoffs, what's considered "benchmark", etc. The worst complainers were the teachers at the very best schools--because more rigorous testing means their high scores can go down, while Title 1 schools like mine are generally improving every year. It was so irritating.
There is the safe-haven clause that was added in. High performing schools now don't have to meet AYP as other schools

All right, folks, let's get back to education please,

What I would like to see, honestly, is more experienced educators -- those who've spent a decade or two in the classroom -- being in charge of the school systems. There is a disgusting lack of emphasis on good teaching practices and an increasing amount of pressure on statistics with former lawyers and businessmen being in charge.

I would like to see recognition that some schools fail not because of the quality of the teachers, but because of the conditions in the neighborhood outside the schools -- and putting money into helping to solve those problems outside while the teachers try to solve the problems of teaching inside. Having to walk past shootouts is not conducive to learning; neither is hunger, homelessness, illness, et cetera.

I would like to see failing schools get more funding and bring in outside consultants to actually help build better teaching practices, rather than the fashion in NY which is to close down the school, fire 75% of the teachers, reorganize the school into four "mini schools" with four sets of administrators, much smaller class sizes, and say, "Job well done!" -- especially since we're seeing an increasing number of cases in which these charter mini schools are doing no better than the big schools they replace, with fewer students per class. Indeed, a number of the charter schools -- a model which was supposed to be miraculous -- are indeed in danger of being shut down for non-performance.

Idk about that, I think it can be used as one of the measures of how well students are doing...

But, basing funding, or decision making on it does seem a little ridiculous...

I said that wrong. What I should have said was "America puts too much emphasis on standardised testing". I only took two over the course of my education.

Standardised testing is a mistake in itself. It's asinine to give tests to kindergartners.

:rolleyes:

The way standardized testing has been implemented has been flawed, but testing in itself is not a mistake. Without assessment, we have no idea whether or not kids are learning what we're trying to teach them. If I want my students to be able to read and write, I'm going to have to make sure they know their letters first--kind of pointless to start on phonetic spelling when a kid can't recognize an 'h' from an 'n'.

There is the safe-haven clause that was added in. High performing schools now don't have to meet AYP as other schools

True--but some of their scores are actually dropping.

This thread is making me regret my decision to abandon my Teaching Career aspirations...I wanted to be a History Teacher, but I hear that only Math and Science teachers are in really high demand, and I suck horribly at Math...

I could go back to Subbing though...since it seems my Call taking job is going the way of the Economy, lol (Im being Laid-off possibly)

This thread is making me regret my decision to abandon my Teaching Career aspirations...I wanted to be a History Teacher, but I hear that only Math and Science teachers are in really high demand, and I suck horribly at Math...

They actually did studies here and found that maths was become irrelevant. You know how you always used to say "Why am I learning this, I'll never use it"? Turns out that a lot of Australians don't actually use complex maths once they leave school. Even in maths heavy jobs, it's all machines now.

All right, folks, let's get back to education please,

What I would like to see, honestly, is more experienced educators -- those who've spent a decade or two in the classroom -- being in charge of the school systems. There is a disgusting lack of emphasis on good teaching practices and an increasing amount of pressure on statistics.I'd also like to see increased emphasis on highly educated teachers. Harder tests to get into the field, higher degree requirements, and better classroom training (mentoring, better student teaching programs, etc)

I would like to see recognition that some schools fail not because of the quality of the teachers, but because of the conditions in the neighborhood outside the schools -- and putting money into helping to solve those problems outside while the teachers try to solve the problems of teaching inside. Having to walk past shootouts is not conducive to learning; neither is hunger, homelessness, illness, et cetera.
This too.
I'd also like to see an admission that much of what happens in a school is reliant upon the administration. My sisters school is failing horribly because the principal is...well...a moron. She changes policies too frequently, has no direction, and sets the teachers against themselves.

I would like to see failing schools get more funding and bring in outside consultants to actually help build better teaching practices, rather than the fashion in NY which is to close down the school, fire 75% of the teachers, reorganize the school into four "mini schools" with four sets of administrators, much smaller class sizes, and say, "Job well done!" -- especially since we're seeing an increasing number of cases in which these charter mini schools are doing no better than the big schools they replace, with fewer students per class.
this.

All right, folks, let's get back to education please,

What I would like to see, honestly, is more experienced educators -- those who've spent a decade or two in the classroom -- being in charge of the school systems. There is a disgusting lack of emphasis on good teaching practices and an increasing amount of pressure on statistics with former lawyers and businessmen being in charge.

I would like to see recognition that some schools fail not because of the quality of the teachers, but because of the conditions in the neighborhood outside the schools -- and putting money into helping to solve those problems outside while the teachers try to solve the problems of teaching inside. Having to walk past shootouts is not conducive to learning; neither is hunger, homelessness, illness, et cetera.

I would like to see failing schools get more funding and bring in outside consultants to actually help build better teaching practices, rather than the fashion in NY which is to close down the school, fire 75% of the teachers, reorganize the school into four "mini schools" with four sets of administrators, much smaller class sizes, and say, "Job well done!" -- especially since we're seeing an increasing number of cases in which these charter mini schools are doing no better than the big schools they replace, with fewer students per class. Indeed, a number of the charter schools -- a model which was supposed to be miraculous -- are indeed in danger of being shut down for non-performance.

I'd like to see a lot more veterans in charge too, especially as a new teacher, and I'd like to see a LOT lower student:teacher ratio. There's simply not enough time to spend with each child. Our school is already near the bare bones--no art or music, one P.E./computers combined teacher who gets each class for about 50 minutes a week, a counselor a couple of hours a week, and that's about it. And next year they're talking about bumping up class sizes again.

I'd like to see a lot more veterans in charge too, especially as a new teacher, and I'd like to see a LOT lower student:teacher ratio. There's simply not enough time to spend with each child. Our school is already near the bare bones--no art or music, one P.E./computers combined teacher who gets each class for about 50 minutes a week, a counselor a couple of hours a week, and that's about it. And next year they're talking about bumping up class sizes again.

That's... quite bad, really.

True--but some of their scores are actually dropping.definatly. There's a town called Greenwich near where I grew up...the majority of the students go on to tier 1 colleges. Their scores have dropped because they refuse to shift to teaching to an 8th grade test while that is what they are tested on.

Ok folks, its 2am local time, I've actually got to get SOME sleep before heading back for some scrumptious standardized testing (http://www.nysedregents.org/testing/engre/regenteng.html have a gander if you so desire at the type of test I'll be grading). See ya, er... later.

I'd also like to see increased emphasis on highly educated teachers. Harder tests to get into the field, higher degree requirements, and better classroom training (mentoring, better student teaching programs, etc)

God, yes. I take no pleasure in the fact that I am horribly overqualified in terms of education/intelligence for my job. It's getting better, I think, but I have encountered far too many teachers who simply read the script in the manual and give that deer-in-headlights look when a child asks, "Why?"

California (supposedly) has some of the most rigorous entrance tests--the CBEST tests "basic" knowledge and the CSET tests subject-specific knowledge. In my entire credentialing program, I may have met two other people who passed both of these tests on the first attempt in a single go (the CSET was three tests which you could take all at once in a five-hour period, or one at a time in three five-hour periods). It was terrifying.


I'd also like to see an admission that much of what happens in a school is reliant upon the administration. My sisters school is failing horribly because the principal is...well...a moron. She changes policies too frequently, has no direction, and sets the teachers against themselves.

Administrative dealings make me stabby. Principals need to worry more about the good of their students than appeasing committees and parents.

They actually did studies here and found that maths was become irrelevant. You know how you always used to say "Why am I learning this, I'll never use it"? Turns out that a lot of Australians don't actually use complex maths once they leave school. Even in maths heavy jobs, it's all machines now.

The 'once they leave school' part is irrelevant, given that, you know, these are teachers teaching in school.

Math stimulates areas of the developing brain. It's a pretty damn good thing to learn. For, you know, kids in school with developing brains.

At the very least, the kids will end up being able to calculate the change they give at the register in their heads quicker than the machine can do it. And there's something that's still inherently wicked awesome about that.

What are substitute teachers like in the US? Here they tend to be incredibly ineffective. I always thought that was a big failing of the system.

I would like to see people realize that it is not the job of teachers to motivate students to learn but merely to provide a basis for students to expand on on their own.

Ok folks, its 2am local time, I've actually got to get SOME sleep before heading back for some scrumptious standardized testing (http://www.nysedregents.org/testing/engre/regenteng.html have a gander if you so desire at the type of test I'll be grading). See ya, er... later.

Ugh... 11:10 here and I've got to be up way too early for more fun testing, too. Here's what our kindergarteners get served, among other things:

TOPA (http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?id=658)

What are substitute teachers like in the US? Here they tend to be incredibly ineffective. I always thought that was a big failing of the system.

Its incredible Phail...Even having been a sub, I recognize that I shouldnt have been...

The Subbing service at least around here is handled by Kelly Services...The only requirement is to have completed High School, I was a sub at 18, straight out of High School, two years ago...I think I did a pretty good job, but I know there were others that really shouldnt have been doing it...

The 'once they leave school' part is irrelevant, given that, you know, these are teachers teaching in school.

Math stimulates areas of the developing brain. It's a pretty damn good thing to learn. For, you know, kids in school with developing brains.

At the very least, the kids will end up being able to calculate the change they give at the register in their heads quicker than the machine can do it. And there's something that's still inherently wicked awesome about that.

Maths is important on a basic level, everything is. But complex maths is starting to fade in importance. It's just not really necessary to know matrices and quadratic equations any more.

I would like to see people realize that it is not the job of teachers to motivate students to learn but merely to provide a basis for students to expand on on their own.

Nice, but wholly unrealistic. It is my job to motivate them to learn--especially since I'm their first real teacher. Not just because they're parents won't always do it, but because students who aren't motivated to learn are usually running around/hitting each other/wrecking the classroom.

Its incredible Phail...Even having been a sub, I recognize that I shouldnt have been...

The Subbing service at least around here is handled by Kelly Services...The only requirement is to have completed High School, I was a sub at 18, straight out of High School, two years ago...I think I did a pretty good job, but I know there were others that really shouldnt have been doing it...

Yikes! You need a B.A./B.S. over here, and our district manages it. Subbing is actually VERY competitive.

God, yes. I take no pleasure in the fact that I am horribly overqualified in terms of education/intelligence for my job. It's getting better, I think, but I have encountered far too many teachers who simply read the script in the manual and give that deer-in-headlights look when a child asks, "Why?"Definatly. New requirements (though, I forget if its federal or not) require a masters within 5 years and continual professional development.
Sadly, so many teachers are grandfathered in, or have long since burned out and given up on making an impact. Despite so much being said about how "easy" teaching is, it takes a spark to do it. Not everyone has it.

California (supposedly) has some of the most rigorous entrance tests--the CBEST tests "basic" knowledge and the CSET tests subject-specific knowledge. In my entire credentialing program, I may have met two other people who passed both of these tests on the first attempt in a single go (the CSET was three tests which you could take all at once in a five-hour period, or one at a time in three five-hour periods). It was terrifying.
MTLEs are similar...for high school, we have to take two...a four hour communications and literacy test, which was brutal, and a subject test...another 4 hours, which, if the literacy test was brutal, this was sheer torture..
Elementary requires a third general knowledge test which is another 4 hours.

They're a little easier than what you're saying, but many people do not pass.


Administrative dealings make me stabby. Principals need to worry more about the good of their students than appeasing committees and parents.A-fucking-men.
Strong principals will lead to strong schools which will lead to happy parents and committees. Doing it the other way around leads to failing schools.

What are substitute teachers like in the US? Here they tend to be incredibly ineffective. I always thought that was a big failing of the system.
It is near impossible for a person to come in without ever having met the students or knowing what is going on in a classroom and be effective teachers. Teachers understand them as lost days for the most part.

Yikes! You need a B.A./B.S. over here, and our district manages it. Subbing is actually VERY competitive.

It wasnt competitive here till me and one of my friends got involved, When they hired us, on the spot I might add, and i was wearing jeans with a big whole in the knee and a chain, very unbusiness like, lol(I dressed better while on the job)...

But after they hired us, my friend got several of our other friends who were out of work hired, and it became very competitive, lol...

Ive always told him that was a bad idea, lol...

Its incredible Phail...Even having been a sub, I recognize that I shouldnt have been...

The Subbing service at least around here is handled by Kelly Services...The only requirement is to have completed High School, I was a sub at 18, straight out of High School, two years ago...I think I did a pretty good job, but I know there were others that really shouldnt have been doing it...CT allows you to sub as a para with a high school degree. To be a full sub, you must hold a BA/BS. Same with MA as far as I know.

I would like to see people realize that it is not the job of teachers to motivate students to learn but merely to provide a basis for students to expand on on their own.
It is our job to motivate. that is part of creating the basis for students to expand...they must be motivated. Students learn much better when the teacher is excited about what they are teaching because it motivates them to become excited.

Nice, but wholly unrealistic. It is my job to motivate them to learn--especially since I'm their first real teacher. Not just because they're parents won't always do it, but because students who aren't motivated to learn are usually running around/hitting each other/wrecking the classroom.

It's unrealistic to change a culture to believe that success only comes to those that work hard?

It's unrealistic to change a culture to believe that success only comes to those that work hard?

That isn't the culture change you're talking about. Hard work comes from motivation. It is the teachers job to instill that motivation and direct it towards progressive routes

Not to mention, schools mirror society, not society schools.

It is our job to motivate. that is part of creating the basis for students to expand...they must be motivated. Students learn much better when the teacher is excited about what they are teaching because it motivates them to become excited.

Look, I understand that there is a role that teachers play in this. But, at some point, the student must desire a better understanding of the subject to actually learn.

Maths is important on a basic level, everything is. But complex maths is starting to fade in importance. It's just not really necessary to know matrices and quadratic equations any more.

I disagree. It stimulates a developing brain. Introduces a malleable mind to new concepts.

How are you going to nurture future mathmaticians if you don't teach them maths?

That being said, it's not like every high school student is taking calculus. Nor does every one need to.

A democratic curriculum - one where all the stakeholders get some say - the students, the teachers, the parents and the governmnet see it as a partnership - and most importantly, a work in progress.

Most schools in Australia could do with a bit more funding - special needs teachers for the students with litertacy/numeracy issues; an accellerated class for those students who get ewasily bored in class because they get the concept in the first minute and don't need it eternally rehashed; a practical curriculum for those who think with their hands; an arts project happening around the campus, a school bus for excursions and camps. Hey! Maybe a school swimming pool and a theatre and a really good indoor sports complex.
A school that has all of this and more is a school that the students will burst the gates to get into.
A school the kids will love.

Look, I understand that there is a role that teachers play in this. But, at some point, the student must desire a better understanding of the subject to actually learn.
That is always true. The old "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

The teachers job is to lug the buckets of water to the trough, then drag the stubborn ass to the trough and shove his head in it.

He can then either drown or drink.

I disagree. It stimulates a developing brain. Introduces a malleable mind to new concepts.

How are you going to nurture future mathmaticians if you don't teach them maths?

That being said, it's not like every high school student is taking calculus. Nor does every one need to.

True, I stopped at Geometry...Im pretty sure he only passed me cause he was retiring the next year though....

I think PreAlgebra really screwed my Maths, cause, I didnt do anything in that class, just played cards, and Passed cause the teacher was a football coach and I was on the Football team....

At the time, I was like, awesome, but after failing Algebra I once and Geometry once....It was definitely not a good thing...

A democratic curriculum - one where all the stakeholders get some say - the students, the teachers, the parents and the governmnet see it as a partnership - and most importantly, a work in progress.

Most schools in Australia could do with a bit more funding - special needs teachers for the students with litertacy/numeracy issues; an accellerated class for those students who get ewasily bored in class because they get the concept in the first minute and don't need it eternally rehashed; a practical curriculum for those who think with their hands; an arts project happening around the campus, a school bus for excursions and camps. Hey! Maybe a school swimming pool and a theatre and a really good indoor sports complex.
A school that has all of this and more is a school that the students will burst the gates to get into.
A school the kids will love.
The kids can love the school without all that stuff. Good leadership will go farther than any pool or theatre.

I disagree. It stimulates a developing brain. Introduces a malleable mind to new concepts.

How are you going to nurture future mathmaticians if you don't teach them maths?

I suppose. IMO, they should make advanced maths optional, rather than mandatory.

Personally, I find that maths is one of the few things from high school that I've never really had to use since.

That being said, it's not like every high school student is taking calculus. Nor does every one need to.

Don't know how it works over there, but here, calculus is a part of the mandatory maths class.

Don't know how it works over there, but here, calculus is a part of the mandatory maths class.

It depends on the state, like here, it was 3 Maths one of which had to be Algebra I and one had to be Geometry...

My Sister's graduating class though has to have 4 with the same two...

True, I stopped at Geometry...Im pretty sure he only passed me cause he was retiring the next year though....

I think PreAlgebra really screwed my Maths, cause, I didnt do anything in that class, just played cards, and Passed cause the teacher was a football coach and I was on the Football team....

At the time, I was like, awesome, but after failing Algebra I once and Geometry once....It was definitely not a good thing...

I took Geometry my freshman year. I was a straight-A student until that point.

That year, I failed geometry. In a loud and grotesque manner, no less. It just made no sense to me.

I took it again my sophomore year. Something clicked, and I aced it.

The same thing actually happened my freshman year with German (although only for the first two quarters). The shit made no sense to me. But something clicked halfway through the year, and I aced it through the rest of high school.

Sometimes it takes a while to grasp new concepts. Both geometry and german were rather new concepts to my mushy brain. Which is why I would hate to see things like that abandoned just because of 'poor test scores' or what-not.

(and it was the german class where I had the football coach who taught me to play poker.:) something else that all high school students should learn!)

Don't know how it works over there, but here, calculus is a part of the mandatory maths class.

When I went to high school (when the first Bush was president), calculus wasn't taught until at least your junior (next-to-last) year, and wasn't mandatory. Very few students took it. I didn't. I took Geometry and Alegbra I my freshman year, and then Geometry again (because I failed the first time) and Alegbra II my sophomore year. I didn't take any more math classes throughout high school after my sophomore year. (actually, I think I took a 'business math' class my senior year.)

I suspect (can't say with any authority) that calculus isn't mandatory. I think Algebra and Geometry are, but I could be wrong. I just don't know.

Something that started happening when I went to high school, was something called "Post-secondary option" schooling, where talented high school students could go to college, during high school, on the state's dime. It's a good option, especially when you figure that most schools just don't have the resources (namely, qualified teachers) to teach most types of advanced subjects. Hell, the guy who taught calculus at my high school probably wasn't qualified to teach it, either.

It's kind of funny the courses that most of you have taken in high school that I had not. Namely, Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus... even though I did make it to pre-Calculus, which wasn't really much calculus at all.

It's kind of funny the courses that most of you have taken in high school that I had not. Namely, Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus... even though I did make it to pre-Calculus, which wasn't really much calculus at all.

I actually feel the same way. About Spanish, in particular. Why the fuck did I take German? :p

I'm glad I took the courses that I did, throughout my sophomore year...because it was all downhill from there. I had no desire to do a damn thing academically once I realized there was more to the world than books, and that sports would get you laid. And that freshman girls would put out.

...and that sports would get you laid. And that freshman girls would put out.

Chicks dig the long ball. ;)

:$The kids can love the school without all that stuff. Good leadership will go farther than any pool or theatre.

Oops! Yeah! I forgot about the good leadership, the excellence in teaching, the school ethos and all of those things that matter.

Good facilities are a great help but the spirit must be there too.

Above all, students need to see themselves as active partners in learning.

In my world:

We would have far more community and parental involvement in the schools to were it, like in Japan, is an event to comment on when the community and parents DON'T show up at school instead of DO show up at school.

We would have a more fully integrated curriculum, one that took advantage of said community resources to allow our students to see what they are studying in the world at large.

We would have the supplies and resources that we actually need.

We would have teacher mentor programs that would pair new teachers with master teachers to pass on best teaching practices.

We would have a portfolio system that would measure student achievement throughout their scholastic career instead of some standardized snapshot that tells us very little.

We would have a more flexible administration

We would have better programs to deal with special education students that range from Sec 504 students to IEP students to our gifted and talented kids.

We would have a better funding system that doesn't reward schools in rich neighborhoods and punish those in poor ones.

We would have at risk schools assigned our best and brightest teachers instead of the newbies who feel over their heads.

We would have better teacher training that would include both practice AND theory, because it's more than a little silly that I learned only practice when I was an undergrad and only theory when I was a grad student when both are needed to solve educational conundrums.

We would have slots for art, music, and field trips and these would not be the first things on the chopping block (But the football team would be).

And in my world we'd also only have wonderful students who just want to learn, parents who provide unlimited support, and our own unicorns...

Ok doc, I'm ready for my medication now! :p

In NYC, your sub is likely to be 1) a teacher who's had their prep period taken away (aka a coverage) 2) a retired teacher with much experience 3) a teacher whose school has closed, and so they are used as a sub while the department looks for another full-time position for them or 4) fresh out of college and into a long-term subbing or per diem subbing job.

True--but some of their scores are actually dropping.
That's because there is a point of diminishing returns, where a school CANNOT improve any further. Once you've got 100% graduation rate, what can you get -- 110%?

If you cease to improve over the previous year, your rating drops.

Yikes! You need a B.A./B.S. over here, and our district manages it. Subbing is actually VERY competitive.
Same here.

Yikes! You need a B.A./B.S. over here, and our district manages it. Subbing is actually VERY competitive.

Here you just have to show up......so I do....one day a week. Substitute teaching is made of fail. I loathe it. It's money though, not much, but money.

The teachers here are supposed to have a B.A./B.S. but the shortage is so bad that if you're "working towards it" they'll let you teach.

Same here.
Nevada doesn't require the BA/BS, but you do have to have (IIRC, it changed recently) 9 credit hours in education from a university before they let you get your sub license.

In my world:

We would have far more community and parental involvement in the schools to were it, like in Japan, is an event to comment on when the community and parents DON'T show up at school instead of DO show up at school.

We would have a more fully integrated curriculum, one that took advantage of said community resources to allow our students to see what they are studying in the world at large.

We would have the supplies and resources that we actually need.

We would have teacher mentor programs that would pair new teachers with master teachers to pass on best teaching practices.

We would have a portfolio system that would measure student achievement throughout their scholastic career instead of some standardized snapshot that tells us very little.

We would have a more flexible administration

We would have better programs to deal with special education students that range from Sec 504 students to IEP students to our gifted and talented kids.

We would have a better funding system that doesn't reward schools in rich neighborhoods and punish those in poor ones.

We would have at risk schools assigned our best and brightest teachers instead of the newbies who feel over their heads.

We would have better teacher training that would include both practice AND theory, because it's more than a little silly that I learned only practice when I was an undergrad and only theory when I was a grad student when both are needed to solve educational conundrums.

We would have slots for art, music, and field trips and these would not be the first things on the chopping block (But the football team would be).

And in my world we'd also only have wonderful students who just want to learn, parents who provide unlimited support, and our own unicorns...

Ok doc, I'm ready for my medication now! :p

:D And the students would never want to leave ---or the teachers! :)

Institute non-mandatory universal high quality preschool. High returns have been shown in children from impoverished backgrounds. With the inclusion of the non-poor returns will probably be lower but skill begets skill and the earlier the investment the better.

Maths is important on a basic level, everything is. But complex maths is starting to fade in importance. It's just not really necessary to know matrices and quadratic equations any more.

Haha, no.

Firstly, you need to know these things for going onto a technical career. And if you don't start teaching the basics - plane geometry, quadratics, etc - at a younger age, there won't be time to prepare a student for university study in the subject. It's exactly the same situation as physics or biology: when are you going to need to know Newton's laws of motion in 'real' life, or know practical points of how DNA is transferred?

Secondly, it may be true that most people in careers such as engineering now primarily use computers to do the actual mathematics, to arrive at numerical solutions. But to formulate the equations you need to be able to handle the actual maths behind them. Even if you're using software which handles all of that as well, the programmers need to be able to do the maths. Someone will always have to - computers only serve use as a tool for the final stage of the calculation.

Thirdly, there are people like myself: mathematicians, astrophysicists, econometricians, etc. Being able to do 'complex' maths is a requirement for this sort of thing. And the thing about complex maths is a computer doesn't really help you out if you lack a solid understanding of the material. Sure, a calculator can handle matrix algebra, but it can only handle the technical parts of it, the computations and calculations. It can't deal with the intuitive ideas required for working with it at a higher level.

Finally, there is the argument advanced by Hardy and many others. Mathematics is not important for its practical applications, but rather for its beauty and simplicity. It is one of the only fields which is purely concerned with the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, not for the sake of some other cause. The mathematician does not seek an understanding of the world around us, or to supply food to the hungry. She seeks to understand and explore a logical world, to enhance her knowledge and built theorems that allow others to discover deeper truths. The teaching of mathematics is important to help instill some of this desire for beauty and elegance into students, and more complex, abstract mathematics is the ideal way to do this.