NationStates Jolt Archive

We all know what that place was and we can only imagine the horrors that took place there. However I have just been reading an article about it's future:


On the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day, two experts on Auschwitz argue for and against the idea that the former Nazi death camp should be allowed to crumble away.

Historian Robert Jan Van Pelt says that once the last survivor has died it should be left for nature to reclaim, and eventually forgotten.

But former Polish Foreign Minister Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, once an inmate, says Auschwitz must be preserved to bear witness to the fate of its victims.

ROBERT JAN VAN PELT, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR:

Many Auschwitz survivors have told me that a visit to the camp can teach little to those who were not imprisoned there.

Their view is best summarised in the text of Alain Resnais' celebrated movie Night and Fog (1955), written by the camp survivor Jean Cayrol. As the camera pans across the empty barracks, the narrator warns the viewer that these remains do not reveal the wartime reality of "endless, uninterrupted fear". The barracks offer no more than "the shell, the shadow".

Should the world marshal enormous resources to preserve empty shells and faint shadows?

Certainly, as long as there are survivors who desire to return to the place of their suffering, it is appropriate that whatever remains of the camps is preserved.

Many of the same survivors who have told me that I can derive little knowledge from a visit to the camp acknowledge that it was good for them to return to the place, anchoring an all-encompassing nightmare back to a particular place.

The world owes it to them not to close such an opportunity for a return. As long as one survivor is still alive, the remains of the camp should remain available.

But what when there are no survivors left? In his autobiographical novel The Long Voyage (1963), former Buchenwald inmate Jorge Semprun considered what ought to happen with the remains of that camp after the death of the last survivor, "when there will no longer be any real memory of this, only the memory of memories related by those who will never know (as one knows the acidity of a lemon, the feel of wool, the softness of a shoulder) what all this really was."

Semprun hoped that grass, roots and brambles would be allowed to take over the camp, destroying the remainder of the fences, barracks and crematorium, effacing "this camp constructed by men".

As we commemorate the 64th anniversary of the arrival of the Red Army at the gates of Auschwitz - the term "liberation" is not really appropriate as most of the inmates had been evacuated a few days earlier in death marches - it is good to begin thinking about the future first anniversary of the day when the last Auschwitz survivor has died.

It might be that we will agree that the best way to honour those who were murdered in the camp and those who survived is by sealing it from the world, allowing grass, roots and brambles to cover, undermine and finally efface that most unnatural creation of Man.

At that future date, may the slowly crumbling debris of decay suggest the final erasure of memory.

Here the argument is made that Auschwitz should be left to rot and decay so eventually it is wiped from the face of the Earth, once the last survivor dies and the first hand memories lost.


WLADYSLAW BARTOSZEWSKI, CHAIRMAN OF THE INTERNATIONAL AUSCHWITZ COUNCIL

The only people with a full and undeniable right to decide the future of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial are the hundreds of thousands murdered in this concentration camp.

The prisoners whom I met as prisoner number 4427, when I was detained in Auschwitz between September 1940 and April 1941, are among them.

To some I owe my survival. They saved me, guided not only by the impulse of the heart, which was heroic at the time. They also believed that the survivors will bear witness to the tragedy which in Auschwitz-Birkenau became the fate of so many Europeans.

Thus I and numerous former prisoners fulfil the testament of the victims and convey to subsequent generations the truth about those days.

But the moment when there will be no more eyewitnesses left is inexorably approaching. What remains is the belief that when the people are gone, "the stones will cry out".

The ruins of crematoria and gas chambers in Birkenau, the empty bunks in barracks, the dark cells in Block 11 and the Wall of Death - all of them will cry out. Therefore, it is meaningful to save stones, ruins, and buildings, even if the price is high.

It lies in the nature of man that when no tangible traces remain, events of the past fall into oblivion.

We do renovate castles, preserve paintings and old libraries. The best example is the memory of ancient Greece and Rome - centuries have passed but it is still vivid, thanks, among others, to the remains of both civilisations.

Why then should we let be forgotten the Memorial to the suffering of thousands of prisoners from many countries, and to the extermination of Jews? The place which has grown to be a global symbol and a warning against all forms of contempt for mankind and of genocide?

There is no other place like that in the world - no other KZ [Konzentrationslager, or concentration camp] was a concentration camp and extermination camp at the same time.

Right after the war, there occurred ideas - which fortunately have not been implemented - to demolish the remains of Auschwitz-Birkenau and plough the area up. The justification given was that a place of such cruel murder should vanish from the face of the Earth.

I do not wish to say that the intentions were not honourable, but in my view disguised behind them were other, not entirely realised, motivations. When a man commits evil, he tries to obliterate its traces.

Auschwitz-Birkenau is like a continuous sting of remorse that torments humanity, especially Europe. It is a sting of remorse for every person who is indifferent to the suffering of others.

Auschwitz-Birkenau must forever remain an unhealed, burning wound, which wakes people up from moral lethargy and forces them to take responsibility for the fate of our world.

If we let the memorial cease to exist, we will take a great burden on our conscience. We will trample upon the testament of the victims.

I hope to be a false prophet in saying that, but if we allow Auschwitz-Birkenau to disappear from the face of the Earth, we might just be opening a way for a similar evil to return.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7827534.stm)

Here the argument is made to keep Auschwitz as a reminder of the events that occured and to honour those who died here and similar camps.

What do you say NSG? Should Auschwitz be torn down/ left to rot or should it be preserved? I personally believe it should be preserved because of the above reasons. It serves as a reminder of what humanity can reduce itself to and that nothing like that should happen again.

I think it should be preserved as a monument and permanent reminder to the depths of evil that humankind can sink to. Some young kids visiting it might not 'get it' given that it doesn't obviously look like somewhere genocidal acts took place. But I think anyone with a degree of maturity, having read what happened there can't help but be moved and leave with the idea that something like this should never happen again even more strongly imprinted on their mind.

Let it die. I'm sick of "Hey, you're German? So, you kill Jews and stuff?".

Let it die. I'm sick of "Hey, you're German? So, you kill Jews and stuff?".

Letting Auchwitz crumble isn't going to erase the history. Thus, I believe it should be preserved.

Letting Auchwitz crumble isn't going to erase the history. Thus, I believe it should be preserved.

Do the Turks ever get quizzed on the Armenian genocide?

If it's relegated to history books, it's as good as gone.

Having been to Vught, a Dutch transportation camp, and feeling the effects there, the affects Auschwitz could have on you are probably 10 times worse.

I feel that at least part of it should be maintained as a memorial if nothing else. Parts of Vught were reconstructed, and it was a small camp in comparision.

Leaning on a wall, that you are later told 750 people were shot against. Not a nice feeling. Visiting these places really does make you think. Something everyone should do once in their life.

lulz
Let it die. I'm sick of "Hey, you're German? So, you kill Jews and stuff?".
Well, based on their policy of "Convert to out religion or we'll blow you up", I'd have to say it'd be the Muslims.

So stereotyping is cool as long as it doesnt happen to white people, right?

Anyway, keep it. Its a reminder.

Preserve Auschwitz as a testament, as witness of the error of a nation and the death of millions. Let is stay so that we don't forget.

If it's relegated to history books, it's as good as gone.

An interesting position to take.

Do the Turks ever get quizzed on the Armenian genocide?

Probably not, considering the Turkisn government keeps it hush hush and denys that it was a genocide.

If it's relegated to history books, it's as good as gone.

lulz what an idiotic position to take.

It's a reminder of what we can become given just a little push in the right direction.

It should stay, just maybe it could stop the next one.

I imagine the German people would like it to go away so they can go back to trying hard to forget the whole thing happened. Then again, since they government beats the memory into their heads repeatedly I can't imagine they'll actually let it dissolve.

An interesting position to take.

Well, how many people know about the annihilation of Carthage, or the destruction and enslavement of Judea? Given time, anything can be forgotten.

In Birkenau, there are large areas of hilly, grassy meadow - the grass has grown on top of the ashes of hundreds of thousands of murdered people dumped there. In a little stretch of woods nearby there's a post with an old photograph showing people cowering in the midst of the very trees you're standing amongst, waiting their turn to be made to enter the gas chambers.

I cannot even imagine ground like that to be mindlessly walked, driven or built on.

And I certainly don't want to see some Neo Nazi assholes take little weekend trips to Poland to have celebratory barbecues on it.

I imagine the German people would like it to go away so they can go back to trying hard to forget the whole thing happened. Then again, since they government beats the memory into their heads repeatedly I can't imagine they'll actually let it dissolve.

Man, you really got us figured out.

Man, you really got us figured out.

What is the German mindset towards the holocaust?

Well, how many people know about the annihilation of Carthage, or the destruction and enslavement of Judea?

The vast, vast majority.

If it were drawing in tourists, it'd be preserved. If it isn't, I put it down to finding a better use for the land. It's not like anyone argues Chernobyl should be kept irradiated to remind us of the evils of nuclear power or that the site of the Soviet pogroms should be preserved.

The vast, vast majority.

I really, really doubt that. There are people who don't even know what WWII was about.

I really, really doubt that. There are people who don't even know what WWII was about.There was a second World War? No shit, how did it turn out?

I really, really doubt that.

Youre entitled to be wrong.


There are people who don't even know what WWII was about.

The vast, vast majoity very much does. Maybe people in your country are woefully ignorant of history (Im sure theyre not, but Im humoring you), but most people arent.

And, considering your posting history, Im not about to take you at your word. So, either show me some statistics about historical ignorance, or stop posting about it.

Man, you really got us figured out.

1) You're saying it's not true?
2) I never said it was a bad thing. Not desiring to remember does not necessitate a desire to repeat it nor a lack of regret or remorse.
3) This in contrast to, say, the Japanese who have an odd obsession with visiting Pearl Harbor and who generally take personal responsibility regardless of actual participation, which certainly isn't healthy.

The vast, vast majoity very much does. Maybe people in your country are woefully ignorant of history (Im sure theyre not, but Im humoring you), but most people arent.

Indeed. And those who say they know nothing or allege a lot of people know nothing of what WWII was about are either lying through their teeth or incredibly stupid and in denial.

Indeed. And those who say they know nothing or allege a lot of people know nothing of what WWII was about are either lying through their teeth or incredibly stupid and in denial.

Or live in FO's head.

It should be preserved. we have monuments to imortalize man's achievements but we also need reminders of mankind's cruelty.

I think they should keep it, but try to make it more down to earth and accessible to modern generations. I went to that Holocaust museum in L.A. and it was incredibly dull and stifling. Make it an amusement park for example, then you can educate AND entertain and be more successful at both!

I also recommended this for the 9/11 memorial but no one listens to my ideas. :(

The vast, vast majoity very much does. Maybe people in your country are woefully ignorant of history (Im sure theyre not, but Im humoring you), but most people arent.

I'm almost positive that the Roman campaigns in Carthage and Judea are NOT common knowledge.

I went to school with people who couldn't tell the difference between a swastika and a hammer and sickle. I've overheard people discussing "the World War II that took place in Germany between the rich people in the East and the poor people in the West". Before you make some fucktard remark, I went to a regular school.

I really, really doubt that. There are people who don't even know what WWII was about.

Semantic argument, but define "about". WWII was fought for a great number of reasons and I imagine there are people who think it was fought for one reason which is not the same reason that someone else thinks it was fought for. The argument could also be made that specific reason is irrelevant; it was fought for the same reason all wars are fought: Gold, God, Glory.

Semantic argument, but define "about". WWII was fought for a great number of reasons and I imagine there are people who think it was fought for one reason which is not the same reason that someone else thinks it was fought for. The argument could also be made that specific reason is irrelevant; it was fought for the same reason all wars are fought: Gold, God, Glory.

They thought that WWII was localised entirely within Germany and that it was between rich East Germans and poor West Germans.

I'm almost positive that the Roman campaigns in Carthage and Judea are NOT common knowledge.

Considering Hannibal crossing the Alps is a recurring theme in pop culture, Im sure most people know something about Rome v Carthage. And anyone who has heard of Christianity knows a bit about Rome and their encounters with the Jews.

I went to school with people who couldn't tell the difference between a swastika and a hammer and sickle. I've overheard people discussing "the World War II that took place in Germany between the rich people in the East and the poor people in the West". Before you make some fucktard remark, I went to a regular school.

FO's personal experiance does not a true blanket statement make. You knew someone who was a bit dumb. Good for you. Like I said, maybe profound ignorance is the norm for that part of Australia (again, Im sure its not, Im just humoring you), but its not for the rest of us.


Like I said, considering your known reliability, I have to ask for some statistics if you want me to take your point seriously. Your personal stories are not convincing.

I'm changing my answer slightly.

Yes, they SHOULD keep it, but it's really up to the Government. after all, they will be the ones to maintain it.

I went to school with people who couldn't tell the difference between a swastika and a hammer and sickle. I've overheard people discussing "the World War II that took place in Germany between the rich people in the East and the poor people in the West". Before you make some fucktard remark, I went to a regular school.

Fucktard remark: Obviously it was not a regular school, as regular schools tend to educate better than that. Then again, my schools were full of self-inflicted retardation. Regardless, this is not the norm. I would guess it follows a Bell Curve: Some know a lot, some know jack shit, most know somewhere in the middle. Difference between Nazism and Communism is in the middle - people should know it, but some are stupid and don't. The Roman campaigns in Carthage and Judea probably fall somewhere in the middle as well.

They thought that WWII was localised entirely within Germany and that it was between rich East Germans and poor West Germans.

See my other post: Self-inflicted retardation.

I'm changing my answer slightly.

Yes, they SHOULD keep it, but it's really up to the Government. after all, they will be the ones to maintain it.

Democratic gov't means the government IS the people, so saying it's up to the gov't really says it's up to the nation as a whole, since the nation as a whole will be maintaining it.

They thought that WWII was localised entirely within Germany and that it was between rich East Germans and poor West Germans.

All this is really beside the point. You want the Holocaust to be forgotten, you've already said so; you may as well be arguing in favor of that kind of ignorance as well. For all of it to be "relegated to the history books" and "as good as gone."

You're the only one so far who's openly advocating in favor of spreading ignorance here. Why should anyone listen to you?

Considering Hannibal crossing the Alps is a recurring theme in pop culture, Im sure most people know something about Rome v Carthage.
I doubt many people know that Hannibal was involved in this particular conflict, outside of his existence in general.

I don't think its a valid example, though. Not important enough.

Considering Hannibal crossing the Alps is a recurring theme in pop culture, Im sure most people know something about Rome v Carthage. And anyone who has heard of Christianity knows a bit about Rome and their encounters with the Jews.

A one sentence summary ("Rome beat Carthage") would be all I'd expect to get out of most people. More to the point, the atrocities of Rome are forgotten.

I doubt many people know that Hannibal was involved in this particular conflict, outside of his existence in general.

I don't think its a valid example, though. Not important enough.

The Judea one counts. Those who were brought up in a Judeo-Christian tradition are bound to remember that story.

A one sentence summary ("Rome beat Carthage") would be all I'd expect to get out of most people.
So?

More to the point, the atrocities of Rome are forgotten.
Not to anyone whose familiar with Christianity.

Fucktard remark: Obviously it was not a regular school, as regular schools tend to educate better than that. Then again, my schools were full of self-inflicted retardation. Regardless, this is not the norm. I would guess it follows a Bell Curve: Some know a lot, some know jack shit, most know somewhere in the middle. Difference between Nazism and Communism is in the middle - people should know it, but some are stupid and don't. The Roman campaigns in Carthage and Judea probably fall somewhere in the middle as well.

Nazism was only taught in the context of the Holocaust. Communism wasn't taught, Romans campaigns were DEFINITELY not taught. It was a normal public school.

The Judea one counts. Those who were brought up in a Judeo-Christian tradition are bound to remember that story.

I wasn't addressing that one, I have no doubt many people know Moses led his people out of Egypt.

Democratic gov't means the government IS the people, so saying it's up to the gov't really says it's up to the nation as a whole, since the nation as a whole will be maintaining it.

yep, and since I'm not part of that nation... ;)

I'm really one of those people who can give their opinion but really can't tell them what to do. :p

The Judea one counts. Those who were brought up in a Judeo-Christian tradition are bound to remember that story.

I don't think they'd know more than what the NT tells them. They wouldn't know about the enslavement of the Jews and the looting of the Temple, for example.

Nazism was only taught in the context of the Holocaust. Communism wasn't taught, Romans campaigns were DEFINITELY not taught. It was a normal public school.

Again, I would argue that your school is in fact not normal, as "normal" schools teach more than that.

It was a normal public school.

Maybe a normal public school for Australia. We are taught all of that in our public schools.

I'm really one of those people who can give their opinion but really can't tell them what to do. :p

There is a difference, yes. I tend to go ahead and tell people what to do with the knowledge that they don't actually have to do it. But often enough they don't know that and do it anyways.

Again, I would argue that your school is in fact not normal, as "normal" schools teach more than that.

What's a normal school anyways?

I am pretty sure that, no matter where you are, the curriculum is supposed to teach more than what Ferrous Oxide is saying.

Nazism was only taught in the context of the Holocaust. Communism wasn't taught, Romans campaigns were DEFINITELY not taught. It was a normal public school.

Maybe normal for your area. We learnt of Nazism and Communism and in Ancient History about the Roman Empire including its campaigns. And "If its relegated to the History Books, its as good as gone"? Not really since influences from the past are seen everywhere in architecture, art, cultures inc pop culture.

What's a normal school anyways?

I am pretty sure that, no matter where you are, the curriculum is supposed to teach more than what Ferrous Oxide is saying.

In Australia, the only history you learn in primary school (up to age 12) is the Australian gold rush. After that, I remember learning WWI, Holocaust, a brief bit on the Cold War. That's pretty much it.

General consensus, then, is that FO's school is, in fact, not normal at all, and his analogy is therefore fallacious and irrelevant.

In Australia, the only history you learn in primary school (up to age 12) is the Australian gold rush. After that, I remember learning WWI, Holocaust, a brief bit on the Cold War. That's pretty much it.

Then the problem lies with the Australian public education system, not with whether or not Auschwitz continued or discontinued existence.

What's a normal school anyways?

I am pretty sure that, no matter where you are, the curriculum is supposed to teach more than what Ferrous Oxide is saying.
They do. it's just that FO slept during those parts. :D

In Australia, the only history you learn in primary school (up to age 12) is the Australian gold rush. After that, I remember learning WWI, Holocaust, a brief bit on the Cold War. That's pretty much it.

wow... all that time on one subject... the gold rush...

Maybe a normal public school for Australia. We are taught all of that in our public schools.

Exactly. I, residing on the other side of the world, was also taught about Romans and their campaigns in school. My schools were considered normal. One could argue that the school to which FO went is NOT, as he states, normal. Either that or he wasn't paying attention or something.

They do. it's just that FO slept during those parts. :D

Hey, I can't fault him for that. History puts me to sleep too.

In Australia, the only history you learn in primary school (up to age 12) is the Australian gold rush. After that, I remember learning WWI, Holocaust, a brief bit on the Cold War. That's pretty much it.

So Australia's public schools suck.

Doesnt mean the rest of us were so poorly educated.

Hey, I can't fault him for that. History puts me to sleep too.

*checkmarks*

-1 point.

Subject dislikes history.

*tsk tsk tsk*

wow... all that time on one subject... the gold rush...

Actually, there was just no history until the final year of primary school.

*checkmarks*

-1 point.

Subject dislikes history.

*tsk tsk tsk*

Hey, history majors are just polisci majors that couldn't stand the heat.

En la cama, voy a recibir muchos puntos

Hey, history majors are just polisci majors that couldn't stand the heat.

Excuse me, dear sir but you don't need to be a history major to appreciate history.:wink:

Actually, there was just no history until the final year of primary school.

In FO's defense, Australia is a fairly young nation and has less individual history than everyone else. And both World Wars were more significant to Europe than to Australia.

Doesnt mean the rest of us were so poorly educated.

Well, there's a certain video of Americans answering questions badly that comes to mind...

Actually, there was just no history until the final year of primary school.

...

why am I reminded of that line from Andromeda...

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.
those who do not learn history well are just doomed."

Well, there's a certain video of Americans answering questions badly that comes to mind...

Thats youre rebuttle? Some video on Youtube or something of an American getting the wrong answer?

At least we learn about Rome.

Excuse me, dear sir but you don't need to be a history major to appreciate history.:wink:

How do you get a history major off your porch?
Pay for the pizza!

En la cama, recibiré muchos puntos

So Australia's public schools suck.

FO's rationalizations do not make him an expert on the Australian education system and I question whether he is even very credible with regards to what his own schools have offered.

In FO's defense, Australia is a fairly young nation and has less individual history than everyone else. And both World Wars were more significant to Europe than to Australia.

That's probably true. Even though Australia's history is roughly as long as the US's, it's a lot more boring.

FO's rationalizations do not make him an expert on the Australian education system and I question whether he is even very credible with regards to what his own schools have offered.

Agreed. Ive said a few times Im just humoring him. Im pretty sure hes lying.

In FO's defense, Australia is a fairly young nation and has less individual history than everyone else. And both World Wars were more significant to Europe than to Australia.

I don't think that excuses FO's post or his allegation that a lot of people do not know what WWII was about, though. I know other people from Australia who know about world history, same as you and me. To blame ignorance on, according to him, not taking any world history until his primary year is terribly silly.

Thats youre rebuttle? Some video on Youtube or something of an American getting the wrong answer?

It's closer to fifty Americans not getting wrong answers, but being completely fucking oblivious; giving wrong answers to questions that you should be able to answer by virtue of existence.

It's closer to fifty Americans not getting wrong answers, but being completely fucking oblivious.

At least we learn about WWII and Rome.

How do you get a history major off your porch?
Pay for the pizza!

Freak. :p

En la cama, recibiré muchos puntos

Tendré que preguntarle a tu pareja si eso que dices es cierto. Ahora, al tema del hilo.

That's probably true. Even though Australia's history is roughly as long as the US's, it's a lot more boring.

"And Australia's down there like, WTF, mate?"

I don't think that excuses FO's post or his allegation that a lot of people do not know what WWII was about, though. I know other people from Australia who know about world history, same as you and me. To blame ignorance on, according to him, not taking any world history until his primary year is terribly silly.

I agree entirely. Australia is not a good basis for a generalization about the rest of the world, or even the Western world.

At least we learn about WWII and Rome.

Most of us don't need to, we pick up the basics of both.

My point was: there are a small number of people who don't get WWII, arguably the most significant event in human history, so why would we expect people to know about comparatively obscure pieces of history such as the Punic Wars?

Most of us don't need to, we pick up the basics of both.

You just said earlier most people dont know anything about it?

Which is it, are most people ignorant of it, or do they pick up details about it?

Preserve it!

It's closer to fifty Americans not getting wrong answers, but being completely fucking oblivious; giving wrong answers to questions that you should be able to answer by virtue of existence.

Doesn't matter if it's a thousand Americans being idiots. It's irrelevant. The argument at hand is the knowledge of specific events in history. Unless the questions asked in the video are specific to these events the point is moot. Even if they are specific to the events, it is still not a valid representation of Americans, or of the Western world, or of the world.

Most of us don't need to, we pick up the basics of both.

Oh?


If it's relegated to history books, it's as good as gone.

I guess since everyone else is contradicting every lame claim you make, you decided to do it yourself.

Tendré que preguntarle a tu pareja si eso que dices es cierto. Ahora, al tema del hilo.

I'll get nothing but an A++ from her.

Auschwitz reminds us of an important part of history despite what German guiltists would like us to believe. It should stay where it is.

Contenta, señorita?

It's closer to fifty Americans not getting wrong answers, but being completely fucking oblivious; giving wrong answers to questions that you should be able to answer by virtue of existence.yet those that get it wrong don't say "our school doesn't teach that."

Most of us don't need to, we pick up the basics of both.

My point was: there are a small number of people who don't get WWII, arguably the most significant event in human history, so why would we expect people to know about comparatively obscure pieces of history such as the Punic Wars?

So what relevance does this have to the existence of Auschwitz?

Oh?



I guess since everyone else is contradicting every lame claim you make, you decided to do it yourself.

He wanted to play too.

I agree entirely. Australia is not a good basis for a generalization about the rest of the world, or even the Western world.

Besides that, FO is doing a terrible disservice to the rest of the Australians on the forum like Blouman Empire and Ardchoille and Neu-Leonstein with his posts. I know the aforementioned posters DO know about WWII.

Oh?



I guess since everyone else is contradicting every lame claim you make, you decided to do it yourself.

What is the point? WWII and Rome are definitely not history book bits of history. WWII played a massive part in the lives of many Australians, and Rome's history is intertwined with that of the Roman Catholic Church.

What is the point? WWII and Rome are definitely not history book bits of history. WWII played a massive part in the lives of many Australians, and Rome's history is intertwined with that of the Roman Catholic Church.

And therefore have no relevence in history books?


Youre not making sense.

Besides that, FO is doing a terrible disservice to the rest of the Australians on the forum like Blouman Empire and Ardchoille and Neu-Leonstein with his posts. I know the aforementioned posters DO know about WWII.

1) We did learn the very, very basics of WWII through Holocaust study.
2) If those three have learnt nothing since they finished school, I'd be extremely surprised.

I'll get nothing but an A++ from her.

Auschwitz reminds us of an important part of history despite what German guiltists would like us to believe. It should stay where it is.

Contenta, señorita?

I'm not the one you should worry about keeping happy, sir.

On the subject of Auschwitz, we completely agree with one another.

And therefore have no relevence in history books?


Youre not making sense.

I meant "history books" as it "relegated to history books", as in "not yet out of public consciousness.

What is the point? WWII and Rome are definitely not history book bits of history. WWII played a massive part in the lives of many Australians, and Rome's history is intertwined with that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Wait what?

You can take anything from history and relate it to the modern day. The Persian Empire isn't taught and that had a massive effect in the Middle East, The Mongol Empire is not taught in the West, confined to history books, but it has had a huge effect on a lot of the world.

So what relevance does this have to the existence of Auschwitz?

My point was, it'll be forgotten eventually.

Wait what?

You can take anything from history and relate it to the modern day. The Persian Empire isn't taught and that had a massive effect in the Middle East, The Mongol Empire is not taught in the West, confined to history books, but it has had a huge effect on a lot of the world.

Sure, but those things don't have day to day effects, at least, not in the West. The Roman Empire does, because if you go to church, you'll hear something about the Roman Empire.

My point was, it'll be forgotten eventually.

Which, once again, is relevant to the existence of Auschwitz...how? Eventually does not mean the day after Auschwitz.

Nor does eventually mean so long from now that it doesn't matter if its continued existence might delay the day when it's forgotten.

We all know what that place was and we can only imagine the horrors that took place there. However I have just been reading an article about it's future:

What do you say NSG? Should Auschwitz be torn down/ left to rot or should it be preserved? I personally believe it should be preserved because of the above reasons. It serves as a reminder of what humanity can reduce itself to and that nothing like that should happen again.

Knock it down and build something functional on the site.

The Holocaust happened. Letting Auchwitz, Sobobor, Treblinka or any of the camps sink into oblivion isn't going to change that. Keeping at least one of them as a museum might help serve as a reminder of the worst the human race can do, at least, help prevent us from sinking that low again (doubtful, but one can hope). A museum, with displays and, perhaps, recorded statements from the people who survived (as well as those who worked there) would serve better as a preventative than dry history.

As for the sensibilities of the Germans, well, anyone who is acquainted with the history of that era knows that the Germans weren't the only ones involved in attempting genocide against Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other "undesirables." And they also know that many Germans (like Oskar Schindler) were involved in trying to mitigate the situation.

Keep it open as a museum, but present all the facts.

Which, once again, is relevant to the existence of Auschwitz...how? Eventually does not mean the day after Auschwitz.

Nor does eventually mean so long from now that it doesn't matter if its continued existence might delay the day when it's forgotten.

It's relevant because the only reason Auschwitz isn't demolished is so to remind people of what happened there. Since there is virtually no chance that it will serve that purpose for longer than, say, a couple of more centuries tops, I don' see the point in going out of our way to save it.

Which, once again, is relevant to the existence of Auschwitz...how? Eventually does not mean the day after Auschwitz.

Nor does eventually mean so long from now that it doesn't matter if its continued existence might delay the day when it's forgotten.

Exactly. What matters is that the continued existence of Auschwitz matters now.

What is the point? WWII and Rome are definitely not history book bits of history. WWII played a massive part in the lives of many Australians, and Rome's history is intertwined with that of the Roman Catholic Church.

The point is you're off your rocker. One minute you're arguing everyone IS ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated; then you're arguing that everyone IS NOT ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated; next you're arguing that being a Catholic means you know anything about Rome's military campaigns against Carthage.

I wouldn't even mind it if you just argued some lunatic point, but you can't seem to make up your mind which lunatic point you're trying to make. It's like arguing with a brick wall trapped in a revolving door.

It's relevant because the only reason Auschwitz isn't demolished is so to remind people of what happened there. Since there is virtually no chance that it will serve that purpose for longer than, say, a couple of more centuries tops, I don' see the point in going out of our way to save it.

Ancient Greek and Roman temples don't serve a purpose, except attracting tourists, yet they are preserved. If the temples of Ancient Civilisations can be saved, why not the horror or a modern world changing event which both educates and generates funds?

Ancient Greek and Roman temples don't serve a purpose, except attracting tourists, yet they are preserved. If the temples of Ancient Civilisations can be saved, why not the horror or a modern world changing event which both educates and generates funds?

Well, those temples are different. They look good, and people enjoy them. The Greeks and Italians are proud of them. There is nothing to be enjoyed about Auschwitz. It is definitely not good looking and nobody is proud of it. If you took away the history lesson, the concentration camps would be long gone.

Ancient Greek and Roman temples don't serve a purpose, except attracting tourists, yet they are preserved. If the temples of Ancient Civilisations can be saved, why not the horror or a modern world changing event which both educates and generates funds?

I wonder if FO is one of those Holocaust Deniers out there.

Well, those temples are different. They look good, and people enjoy them. The Greeks and Italians are proud of them. There is nothing to be enjoyed about Auschwitz. It is definitely not good looking and nobody is proud of it. If you took away the history lesson, the concentration camps would be long gone.

Of course, if it's not pretty and enjoyable we should just forget it. There's nothing to be served by remembering unpleasantness - except that we might try to avoid the unpleasantness in the future. jeez.

Well, those temples are different. They look good, and people enjoy them. The Greeks and Italians are proud of them. There is nothing to be enjoyed about Auschwitz. It is definitely not good looking and nobody is proud of it. If you took away the history lesson, the concentration camps would be long gone.

Not all of history is about looking good and enjoying it. You have to take the good stuff with the bad stuff to have a full understanding. Auschwitz is not there to be enjoyed, it is there to show us how low we could all sink and the horrors we can create.

The point is you're off your rocker. One minute you're arguing everyone IS ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated; then you're arguing that everyone IS NOT ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated; next you're arguing that being a Catholic means you know anything about Rome's military campaigns against Carthage.

I wouldn't even mind it if you just argued some lunatic point, but you can't seem to make up your mind which lunatic point you're trying to make. It's like arguing with a brick wall trapped in a revolving door.

*sigh*

Do you go out of your way to not understand it?

1) I don't know what the hell you're talking about with people not being educated.
2) I NEVER said that being Catholic would imbue you with knowledge of the Punic Wars. I said that being Catholic would ensure that you know at least a basic amount about the Roman Empire's existence.

*sigh*

Do you go out of your way to not understand it?

1) I don't know what the hell you're talking about with people not being educated.

Rusty, did you forget the past...6 pages?

I wonder if FO is one of those Holocaust Deniers out there.

I'm pretty much just over the Holocaust. I've got a good mix: my German side means that everybody tells me I'm to blame for it, and then my Ukrainian side has the history of the Holodomor that the world has gone out of it's way to ignore. It comes together to form someone who really couldn't care about the Holocaust any more.

It's relevant because the only reason Auschwitz isn't demolished is so to remind people of what happened there. Since there is virtually no chance that it will serve that purpose for longer than, say, a couple of more centuries tops, I don' see the point in going out of our way to save it.

Assuming the Holocaust is bad: fewer Holocausts would be a good thing, yes?
Assuming forgetting bad historical events makes them more likely to repeated: remembering the Holocaust will make it less likely to happen again. Less likely to happen means, on average, it will not occur as often. Thus, remembering the Holocaust is good, since it will likely cause fewer to happen. I imagine everyone wants to keep the ratio of Holocausts per several centuries to a minimum.

Also, we're not talking in the scale of centuries, we're talking about the scale of millennia (as we of the 2nd millenium, AD, still study events of the 5th millenium BC and earlier).

Removing Auschwitz will not affect whether or not the Holocaust is remembered. It will, however, affect people's willingness to do it again, since having a constant reminder, rather than a passive intellectual knowledge, is arguably more conducive to preventing further Holocausts.

*sigh*

Do you go out of your way to not understand it?

I understand that you're not making any sense.

1) I don't know what the hell you're talking about with people not being educated.

Have you been reading the thread?


2) I NEVER said that being Catholic would imbue you with knowledge of the Punic Wars. I said that being Catholic would ensure that you know at least a basic amount about the Roman Empire's existence.

Kinda like having Auschwitz there would ensure people know at least a basic amount about the Nazis and the Holocaust. And that's a good thing, unless you're arguing (and you appear to be) that general ignorance is preferable.

Rusty, did you forget the past...6 pages?

One minute you're arguing everyone IS ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated; then you're arguing that everyone IS NOT ignorant and therefore should NOT be educated

When did I ever say that people are ignorant and thus should not be educated?

They let the GULAG system rot and now look at the number of nationalistic morons in Russia that see Stalin as a great leader. Oh, sure, he nearly bungled the first years of the war so badly that the Soviets nearly lost to Germany, ruined the country's natural and social environment, killed or starved over 30 million people and ruined the lives and reputations of millions more, but he built a shit ton of useless factories in Siberia and gave Russia the atomic bomb so I guess that balances it all out.

If you let these sorts of things fade away, all it does is give credence to modern-day whitewashing of that era. I have no doubt allowing the Holocaust to fade from memory would greatly enhance the reputation of the Nazi regime and attract far more people to it than would be possible if its atrocities remained preserved indefinitely.

Well, based on their policy of "Convert to out religion or we'll blow you up", I'd have to say it'd be the Muslims.
my German side means that everybody tells me I'm to blame for it


lulz.

It needs to stay - cuz, I would have to ask: what else would they put there? A mall? A bed and breakfast??? A playground???

In America, the field where the Battle of Gettysburg took place is just a huge open field - it's got a few statues and markers on it, but it's just an open field. And going there is pretty moving. How much more so a concentration camp?

Nothing else should be there - it would be a terrible insult to the lives that were lost, as well as those who made it through.

Here's an idea. If we let Auchwitz rot, let's let Wounded Knee rot, let Pearl Harbor rot, let the World Trade Center rot, let Musagh Dagh rot. Let's let every place something unpleasant happened slide into oblivion. We don't need to be reminded that European settlers in the Americas attempted genocide against First Nations. We don't need to be reminded that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor before they declared war. We don't need to be reminded that Muslim terrorists killed over 3000 innocent (in context) people. We don't need to be reminded that the Turks attempted genocide against the Armenians. We don't need to be reminded of what a bunch of genocidal pissants we are - why, because we keep proving it every day in every way.

Maybe, someday, someone will look at one of these monuments to genocide and say, "Gee, guys, maybe we should stop doing this," in the meantime, we need to be reminded!

lulz.

Well maybe if you fucking Americans stopped telling me I was a fucking Nazi babykiller because of my lineage I wouldn't have ended up thinking that way.

Here's an idea. If we let Auchwitz rot, let's let Wounded Knee rot, let Pearl Harbor rot, let the World Trade Center rot, let Musagh Dagh rot. Let's let every place something unpleasant happened slide into oblivion. We don't need to be reminded that European settlers in the Americas attempted genocide against First Nations. We don't need to be reminded that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor before they declared war. We don't need to be reminded that Muslim terrorists killed over 3000 innocent (in context) people. We don't need to be reminded that the Turks attempted genocide against the Armenians. We don't need to be reminded of what a bunch of genocidal pissants we are - why, because we keep proving it every day in every way.

Deal.

Deal.

You don't deal well with sarcasm, do you?

Well maybe if you fucking Americans stopped telling me I was a fucking Nazi babykiller because of my lineage I wouldn't have ended up thinking that way.

Considering we have millions of German Americans in America who manage to go every day without being told theyre a "fucking Nazi babykiller", Im going to have to say that "Americans" dont say that to you as much as you say they do.



There might be other reasons people call you a Nazi, but being German isnt one of them.

Well maybe if you fucking Americans stopped telling me I was a fucking Nazi babykiller because of my lineage I wouldn't have ended up thinking that way.

I don't think anyone has that opinion of Germans or people who have German lineage in this day and age, okay maybe an incredibly small bigoted minority who aren't very well educated.

lulz.

Ferrous Oxide, just because you have German ancestry doesn't mean you're to blame for what the German did to the Jews during WWII. It's completely silly of you to think that way.

I posses German ancestry and I don't think I am to blame for what happened during the Holocaust. I don't feign ignorance either. It happened, 6 million plus Jewish people lost their lives in the whim of a sick man. But that doesn't mean all Germans are bad people who are anti-Semitic and who kill Jews. It's not that way. It has never been. It's ridiculous of you to even bring that to an argument.

Well maybe if you fucking Americans stopped telling me I was a fucking Nazi babykiller because of my lineage I wouldn't have ended up thinking that way.

Defensive.

Not a good sign.



Besides, I don't recall anyone here calling you a Nazi or a babykiller. I don't recall anyone saying that Germans are Nazis or babykillers, only that many Germans were Nazis and many of those Nazis were babykillers, which has no bearing on you unless you happen to be a Nazi and have participated in babykilling.

You haven't, have you? Because it be pretty bad if you had, not to mention how that would discredit a lot of your argument.

I don't think anyone has that opinion of Germans or people who have German lineage in this day and age, okay maybe an incredibly small bigoted minority who aren't very well educated.

I dont think anyone ever tells FO what he says they tell him.

There are probably more neo-Nazis than people who hate Germans as Jew-killers in America.

You don't deal well with sarcasm, do you?

I know it's sarcasm, I just don't care. I would be a lot happier if that was how things worked.

I have to ask Rusty, living in Australia, where do you have all these interactions with Americans, living in Australia and all. Because I know no one here has ever called you a Nazi just because you were German.

Unless they were trolling.

I know it's sarcasm, I just don't care. I would be a lot happier if that was how things worked.

Ostrich, are we?

There might be other reasons people call you a Nazi, but being German isnt one of them.

hmmmm....

I know it's sarcasm, I just don't care. I would be a lot happier if that was how things worked.

So, you would basically support ignorance?

Unless they were trolling.

That is a distinct possibility.



Does that still count?


I mean, they did call him that (assuming it happened).



But does it count if you don't mean it? Or at least don't care?

I have to ask Rusty, living in Australia, where do you have all these interactions with Americans, living in Australia and all. Because I know no one here has ever called you a Nazi just because you were German.

Unless they were trolling.

All you bloody Allies are the same. Australians, Americans, British, French.

Defensive.

Not a good sign.

Defensive? Nah.

Attention seeking? Yes.

All you bloody Allies are the same. Australians, Americans, British, French.

You complain about stereotyping yet here you are stereotyping...

All you bloody Allies are the same. Australians, Americans, British, French.

Im still calling bullshit that people call you a nazi on a regular basis because youre German. And if it really hasnt been "Americans", I suggest you stop saying it was.

You complain about stereotyping yet here you are stereotyping...

Ssh. For some life needs to be simple and uncomplicated. We need to let them think that so that when the real complex and difficult life blindsides them, they have someone to blame.

Im still calling bullshit that people call you a nazi on a regular basis because youre German. And if it really hasnt been "Americans", I suggest you stop saying it was.

I don't tell people I'm German any more. If they ask, I'm Alemannic.

But yes, during school, the usual response to "I'm German" was "So you're a Nazi?".

Im still calling bullshit that people call you a nazi on a regular basis because youre German. And if it really hasnt been "Americans", I suggest you stop saying it was.

It is BS. He always brings it up when the topic of Germany, WWII or Holocaust present themselves on the forum. It's always the same cry, the same whining. It, honestly, tires.

Only a barbarian would argue for such a museum of human evil to be destroyed. Ferrous Oxide, your trolling is becoming very insulting. When you throw in red herrings like the Armenian genocide to bolster your ridiculous arguments, I can omly guess at your motives.

Feel free to demonstrate outside your nearest Turkish consulate, Ferrous but don't spit on the mass graves of the victims of Nazism, please.

Only a barbarian would argue for such a museum of human evil to be destroyed. Ferrous Oxide, your trolling is becoming very insulting. When you throw in red herrings like the Armenian genocide to bolster your ridiculous arguments, I can omly guess at your motives.

Feel free to demonstrate outside your nearest Turkish consulate, Ferrous but don't spit on the mass graves of the victims of Nazism, please.

Way to play down the Armenian Genocide. Another member of the "Boo hoo, the Holocaust was horrible... what Armenian Genocide? What Holodomor? Shut up, those don't matter" brigade?

I don't tell people I'm German any more. If they ask, I'm Alemannic.

But yes, during school, the usual response to "I'm German" was "So you're a Nazi?".

Ah, right. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Explains a lot.

Uh! Uh! Ferrous! I'm not playing down any genocide - you are!

You seem to live on that well known Egyptian waterway - De Nile

Uh! Uh! Ferrous! I'm not playing down any genocide - you are!

You seem to live on that well known Egyptian waterway - De Nile

I know about the Holocaust, I just don't care any more. It's been shoved down my throat so much, I really couldn't care less.

But yes, during school, the usual response to "I'm German" was "So you're a Nazi?".

I'm with KoL here. Bullshit. If you get called a nazi, I think it has less to do with your heritage, and more to do with your general political philosophy.

I'm with KoL here. Bullshit. If you get called a nazi, I think it has less to do with your heritage, and more to do with your general political philosophy.

I was 13, I didn't have a philosophy.

Unlike America, ethnicity isn't just blacks, whites and hispanics. People fight over ethnicity here, even if there's no issue to fight over.

Re: Auschwitz

I say let it rot but forbid building on it. There is no need to keep Auschwitz as it was forever as a museum. A fallow field with a simple sign marking where it was is enough.

That's fine Ferrous; I can accept that. You went one step further by arguing for its eradication. By the way, I'm all for having a monument for the victims of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians.
The point about the Nazi death camps however, is that the Nazis created these monuments to evil. If Germans start saying that they should go, then the rest of the world may well ask,
"How are you going to do it? Invade Poland again?"

FO is Australian, not German. His outrage is so orchestrated it sucks.:rolleyes:

FO is Australian. His grandparents may have been German, but he just has the ancestry. If he tells people his Alemannic or German, his lying so much. Once again, this is BS, I'm with both KoL and Neo Art on this one.

My mother is German.

My mother is Jewish.

Don't mention the war. I did once, but I think I got away with it. (Basil Fawlty)

FO is Australian, not German. His outrage is so orchestrated it sucks.:rolleyes:

You live in a country where the biggest ethnic issue is Barcelona vs Real. In Australia, ethnicity is a massive issue. Ever watch the Australian Open?

My great-grandfather was German. Does that makes me German? Was I born in Germany? No. It makes me have German ancestry, but I was born, raised and educated in Spain. I am Spanish.

You live in a country where the biggest ethnic issue is Barcelona vs Real. In Australia, ethnicity is a massive issue. Ever watch the Australian Open?

Yes, because there is no racism in Spain or in Europe in general for that matter.

Oh wait... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/20/spain.football)

Ferrous, quit while you're behind.

My advice to you at a dinner party - keep your mouth shut and smile a lot.

(It is better for a man to say nothing and to have people think he's a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all possible doubt!)

My great-grandfather was German. Does that makes me German? Was I born in Germany? No. It makes me have German ancestry, but I was born, raised and educated in Spain. I am Spanish.

Well of course you're not German, you've only go one-eighth the blood. Do you even have German relatives any more?

Yes, because there is no racism in Spain or in Europe in general for that matter.

Oh wait... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/20/spain.football)

European racism is generally a lot simpler. "They're black, let's get them. They're brown, let's get them. They're different, let's get them. Why aren't there any whites in our football team any more?".

Ferrous, quit while you're behind.

My advice to you at a dinner party - keep your mouth shut and smile a lot.

(It is better for a man to say nothing and to have people think he's a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all possible doubt!)

It's cool, I'm charismatic. People agree with me a lot more in reality.

European racism is generally a lot simpler. "They're black, let's get them. They're brown, let's get them. They're different, let's get them. Why aren't there any whites in our football team any more?".

?

And what makes Australian racism any different? You've been called things because of your heritage, I've been called things and beaten up because of the colour of my skin. Then there's all the underlying issues of why racism exists and how communities deal with it.

So excuse me if I call bullshit, that racism in Europe is simple and not that serious.

Well of course you're not German, you've only go one-eighth the blood. Do you even have German relatives any more?

Yes, my mother has aunts in Germany and she has a sister who lives there from a previous marriage of my grandfather. In other words, I have a German aunt. Does that, once again, makes me German? No, it doesn't. Your mother is German, but you were born and raised in Australia, that makes you an Australian so quit nationality tripping.

[/completely ignores rest of thread] Part of history isn't just what we accomplished that was good, it is reminding us to stay on that path and what can happen if we allow ourselves to fall to corruption, greed, and hate. You cannot destroy it, even though the pain it has caused, simply as a reminder and warning to all future generations.

How many parents do we have? 2
How many grandparents? 4
great-grandparents? 8
great great-grandparents? 16
great great great-grandparents? 32

Have you ever worked out what 2 to the power of 20 is? Because that's you after 21 generations. It's a big number and it's even bigger when you add everything up. So when people talk about their family trees, remember that noone's ancestry is very "pure" - except perhaps for unfortunates who have been interbreeding in remote areas of the planet. Viva la extended gene pool! It's the best argument against race theory there is! Moreover, it can be demonstrated mathematically.
I worked out 2 to the power of 20 .......It's 1,048,592 (caveat - I teach English and Politics, so feel free to check)

Yes, my mother has aunts in Germany and she has a sister who lives there from a previous marriage of my grandfather. In other words, I have a German aunt. Does that, once again, makes me German? No, it doesn't. Your mother is German, but you were born and raised in Australia, that makes you an Australian so quit nationality tripping.

I tried being Australian. Everybody told me to stop being Aussie and act like the European I was.

It's cool, I'm charismatic. People agree with me a lot more in reality.I thought people called you a Nazi Babykiller in real life?

You live in a country where the biggest ethnic issue is Barcelona vs Real. In Australia, ethnicity is a massive issue. Ever watch the Australian Open?

Your ignorance of racism in Spain or in Europe for that matter is staggering. Educate yourself.:rolleyes:

I thought people called you a Nazi Babykiller in real life?

I don't tell people I'm German any more.

I tried being Australian. Everybody told me to stop being Aussie and act like the European I was.

Dude, really. You were born in Australia, so that's what you are, an Australian. The rest of this statement is, as all else, BS. Be serious.

Hey Ferrous! Maybe some Aussie would say that if you want to be someone other than an Aussie, that's fine because the rest of us will have one less loudmouthed Aussie embarassing us internationally.
However, I just received a message from the German Ministry saying, "Nein! Der embarassing Ferroux Oxide ist nicht Deutsche! Nein Nein!"

I don't tell people I'm German any more. If they ask, I'm Alemannic.

But yes, during school, the usual response to "I'm German" was "So you're a Nazi?".

So I'm to understand that you went to school with mostly Americans?

Well of course you're not German, you've only go one-eighth the blood. Do you even have German relatives any more?

Have you ever spent more time in Germany than visits?

I don't tell people I'm German any more.

You cleverly hide it with an Australian accent, an Australian citizenship, an Australian upbringing and by living in Australia.

I don't tell people I'm German any more.

But of course. You're not German.

But of course. You're not German.

For the last time; it doesn't work that way here.

Well maybe if you fucking Americans stopped telling me I was a fucking Nazi babykiller because of my lineage I wouldn't have ended up thinking that way. "[Us] Americans" Ferrous, untill this thread I didn't know your Ethnic Linage was German... sorry, Alemannic.

I don't tell people I'm German any more. If they ask, I'm Alemannic.

But yes, during school, the usual response to "I'm German" was "So you're a Nazi?". Gee, so it's school now... what level... Primary? Secondary?

My ethnicity is Japanese, Okinawan to be exact, and I can say that NO ONE, not even a German, has walked up to me and tried to tie Pearl Harbor or any other atrocity done during wartime to me. why? because they know it's stupid and they know I won't rise to it.

Re: Auschwitz

I say let it rot but forbid building on it. There is no need to keep Auschwitz as it was forever as a museum. A fallow field with a simple sign marking where it was is enough.
TBH, there are stark differences between reading about it, looking at pictures and being IN the building.

A fallow Field won't have the same impact as walking down the same hallways many poor souls traveled upon for the last time.

Thats youre rebuttle? Some video on Youtube or something of an American getting the wrong answer?

At least we learn about Rome.

It's closer to fifty Americans not getting wrong answers, but being completely fucking oblivious; giving wrong answers to questions that you should be able to answer by virtue of existence.

One wonders how many of those interviewed got the questions right and were subsequently edited out of the footage.

Anyway, I see that both sides gave a compelling argument, and I appreciate the symbolism given. Allowing it to rot, allowing nature to claim it symbolically heals the open wound, leaving no sign of the injury and leaving only its memory.

Yet at the same time, I'm reminded ever so slightly of The Hero's Journey. One of the concepts is that of an unhealable wound:

The hero is always on some type of adventure with a purpose--a quest if you will. He experiences many things on this quest, among which is a descent into a kind of "hell." In this hell he experiences a low point in his life that leaves him scarred forever with a real or psychological wound that will not heal. The hero learns from this descent into "hell" much about himself and usually matures greatly from the experience.

If we consider humanity to be a gigantic Hero's Journey--or perhaps it's cyclic and simply the latest in a series--then perhaps the Holocaust could be considered the unhealable wound. Perhaps we've learned what darkness lurks in the hearts of men, and maybe we should--maybe we must allow Auschwitz-Birkenau for that reason. Letting Earth reclaim it may indeed heal the wound.

But is it a wound that should be healed? I would say no.

Thanks Juni for your cool-headed wisdom. And thanks Ferrous for allowing us to slap you around so enthusiastically.

I've only been to one concentration camp. I took my family to Tuol Sleng in Phnom Penh in Cambodia. It was an old French colonial primary school where Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge tortured thousands of Cambodians and a handful of westerners to death.

It was so heart-breaking.

I've been reading abouty the concentration camps of Europe for almost fifty years but I haven't visited them yet - and I'm not eager to. My son went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago and thought that the Polish governmnet was over-commercialising it.
This is definitely NOT the case with Tuol Sleng. After you wander through the ex-classrooms where they tied victims to beds and removed flesh while the victims screamed, after you studied the photos of those who looked into the camera knowing their deaths were imminent, you ended up at a sactuary for the victims. Some old sticks of incense remained there. I wanted to burn some incense at the shrine but there was none.
After going outside, my daughter and I sat down on a bench and burst into tears. When we left Tuol Sleng we were surrounded by amputees from the Cambodian wars (many farmers still lose limbs from activating mines left from the wars.)
I visited an anti-mine museum on the outskirts of Phnom Penh run by a brave man called Ak Hira who helps co-ordinate mine clearance in Cambodia. I met an American volunteer aid worker who was coming to work in Phnom Penh. This time I had incense and matches with me.
I asked him if he knew Tuol Sleng and he said he lived close to there, so I gave him all my insense and matches and asked him if he would give these to the amputee beggars outside Tuol Sleng.
So if you go to Phnom Pehn and visit Tuol Sleng, check out if the amputees are selling insense there.
I hope they are.

"[Us] Americans" Ferrous, untill this thread I didn't know your Ethnic Linage was German... sorry, Alemannic.

Gee, so it's school now... what level... Primary? Secondary?

Beating up on people whilte they are down, while fun, gets old fast. . .so maybe just leave it? (not you in specific lol you in general)


My ethnicity is Japanese, Okinawan to be exact, and I can say that NO ONE, not even a German, has walked up to me and tried to tie Pearl Harbor or any other atrocity done during wartime to me. why? because they know it's stupid and they know I won't rise to it.

Point. That and Americans (US and CAN both) tend to be a little more sensitive to those of Japanese Descent in that we did some pretty horrible things to Japanese-Americans during world war two. The whole nuke thing is also a source of shame in my opinion.


TBH, there are stark differences between reading about it, looking at pictures and being IN the building.

A fallow Field won't have the same impact as walking down the same hallways many poor souls traveled upon for the last time.
Good point. I'd say keep it in good repair. . .visited an franks house in France once and that was a heck of a lot more impressive than a simple field would have been.

Now that several posters have dragged the thread back on topic:

Ferrous Oxide: any further discussion by you in this thread of your personal trials as an Australian of German descent will be considered a deliberate thread hijack and treated as such.

Others: any further response in this thread by individual posters to Ferrous Oxide's posts about his trials as an Australian of German descent will be considered a deliberate thread hijack and treated as such.

There is a line between self-policing and dogpiling. I think some of you came a little too close to crossing it here.

Once a dispute has arisen about a poster -- eg, he's warned by one or two others that he might be rulebreaking -- see if he mends his ways. If not, take it to moderation and wait. Don't join in. Don't respond. Stick to the topic.

I have an alternative idea.

Salt the earth of Auschwitz. Make it forever a black mark where nothing will grow.

Actually salt the lands of all the camps, make them cursed to life so even if by some reason things are forgotten through the ages of time, the scar will never vanish.

Ferrous Oxide: any further discussion by you in this thread of your personal trials as an Australian of German descent will be considered a deliberate thread hijack and treated as such.

Don't worry, I don't think I can reach the controls of my computer through the gelatinous sphere of intransigent illiberality.

On the one hand, preserving it at least leaves open the option of going to it; people can always choose not to.

On the other hand, I noticed something when they mentioned the use of resources to preserve it; that would include human resources. Which begs the question, whose job is it to maintain it?

The Polish government does all the rule-making about it - it is after all on Polish soil.
It has had a few tense moments in the past where Jews and others have criticised it for over-developing and over-commercialising the environs. It's an immense tourist drawcard and, as such, it's not likely to be closes down. It does present preservation issues - I don't think that it will be "left to rot", though.

The Polish government does all the rule-making about it - it is after all on Polish soil.
It has had a few tense moments in the past where Jews and others have criticised it for over-developing and over-commercialising the environs. It's an immense tourist drawcard and, as such, it's not likely to be closes down. It does present preservation issues - I don't think that it will be "left to rot", though.
Maybe it should be given over to the Isrealis? (If there's more appropriate organization to represent the Jewish population as a whole then that instead) Allow the jewish peoples to decide what they want done with it?

Don't worry, I don't think I can reach the controls of my computer through the gelatinous sphere of intransigent illiberality.

gelatinous sphere of intransigent illiberality
so . .. gel-like ball of bigoted fix-mindedness?

preserve it let us never forget.

Preserve it, if we don't learn from History, then we are doomed to repeat it.

*sees the news about Genocide in Darfur*

God Dammit....

Preserve it, if we don't learn from History, then we are doomed to repeat it.

*sees the news about Genocide in Darfur*

God Dammit....

I keep saying we need to fund the teaching of history in Africa.

I keep saying we need to fund the teaching of history in Africa.

ahhh but we wouldn't want to expose the kiddies to such unpleasantness.

ahhh but we wouldn't want to expose the kiddies to such unpleasantness.

if they are the ones with the machetes then we do.

I imagine the German people would like it to go away so they can go back to trying hard to forget the whole thing happened. Then again, since they government beats the memory into their heads repeatedly I can't imagine they'll actually let it dissolve.Auschwitz is not in Germany.

What is the German mindset towards the holocaust?Indifference.

Well, how many people know about the annihilation of Carthage,I do, and that is not an apt comparison.

Rome completely destroyed Carthage. Wiped it from the face of the Earth, forever.

Nazi Germany obviously didn't do that to the Jews. Auschwitz should stay as a physical reminder. People too often forget the intangible.

The Judea one counts. Those who were brought up in a Judeo-Christian tradition are bound to remember that story.How so? The punishment for the stupid Jewish insurgence took place after the "events" narrated in the Bible.

Do the Turks ever get quizzed on the Armenian genocide?
:confused:
I've never heard people telling to Germans in the street "Ehi, crucco, quanti ebrei hai ucciso?". Not even in France I've heard people going for "He, boche, combien de juifs tu a tuè?". Most people know what happened during the Nazi regime, and don't blame it on people who weren't even alive then - like the vast majority of Germans.
Same goes for Turks. Many people know of the genocide of the Armenians (also because many Armenians sought refuge in Italy, in the old Armenian community in Venice) - but don't blame that on people who weren't even alive then - like the quasi-totality of Turks.

Well, how many people know about the annihilation of Carthage, or the destruction and enslavement of Judea?

Anyone who's taken his 5th grade. (Yes, I mean the class one usually is in at about age 10).

:confused:
I've never heard people telling to Germans in the street "Ehi, crucco, quanti ebrei hai ucciso?". Not even in France I've heard people going for "He, boche, combien de juifs tu a tuè?". Most people know what happened during the Nazi regime, and don't blame it on people who weren't even alive then - like the vast majority of Germans.
Same goes for Turks. Many people know of the genocide of the Armenians (also because many Armenians sought refuge in Italy, in the old Armenian community in Venice) - but don't blame that on people who weren't even alive then - like the quasi-totality of Turks.However, there is a difference. Germany has accepted its guilt as a nation (and deals with it), while Turkey still denies the genocide.

How so? The punishment for the stupid Jewish insurgence took place after the "events" narrated in the Bible.

At least where I'm from, the Jewish diaspora gets taught as some background context, especially when discussing the history of the Church.

I do, and that is not an apt comparison.

Rome completely destroyed Carthage. Wiped it from the face of the Earth, forever.

Nazi Germany obviously didn't do that to the Jews. Auschwitz should stay as a physical reminder. People too often forget the intangible.

point of historical order.
they only took 50k slaves (common practice of the time to pay for a war or campaign.) the rest of the 1 million civilians were fine.
Hitler Killed somewhere along lines 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population.

Also the Romans Rebuilt Carthage

Also the Romans Rebuilt CarthageJust read about that. (Shows me for not continuing to read my history books. ;))

Just read about that. (Shows me for not continuing to read my history books. ;))

be careful there are some really horrendous ones still in circulation that insist that the Romans salted the fields.

You know, in spite of some feelings otherwise, history is a useful tool. It's not just a list of things that happened in the past and the people who participated in those events, it's reminder of what we are capable of, good and bad. We need reminders of both. For every Dr. Mengele, there's an Oskar Schindler or a Mother Theresa. The thing is, though, we can't know the good without knowing the evil. We can't change what is evil about the human race without knowing what it is and what it's capable of. We can't know it if we deny it's existence.

be careful there are some really horrendous ones still in circulation that insist that the Romans salted the fields.If I read one that has that in there, I'll take it with a grain of salt. ;)

If I read one that has that in there, I'll take it with a grain of salt. ;)

Where's Eut's trout when you need it?

Where's Eut's trout when you need it?That's from before my time. I'm not up to date on old members.

That 1% that gives Homo sapiens Newton,Mozart and Aristotle, can also give Hitler and others like him.The Human race can rise to great heights and also in certain periods of History sink to depths of infamous barbarism.Auchwitz must be kept as a constant reminder to all nations not to be complacent,something like the Holocaust can happen again unless we are vigilant.

The idea that we could allow the land even the possibility of reclamation is unthinkable

How so? The punishment for the stupid Jewish insurgence took place after the "events" narrated in the Bible.

Bar Kochba goes down with the other heroes that took on Rome - Spartacus and Hannibal.

The Roman revenge was terrible but nowhere near as horrible as the holocaust which was aimed not just at subjugation but at extinction of a people (or several peoples - gypsies and Slavs).

The Holocaust wasn't the first nor will it be the last to be visited on a people.

Beware those who would entertain "ethnic cleansing" ideas for verily they are in need of a slap.

It should kept presevered just like preserved sections of the Burma Railway

Bar Kochba goes down with the other heroes that took on Rome - Spartacus and Hannibal.

Hannibal came from a culture that thought human sacrifice was a cool idea. I have to admit, I'd take even the most depraved Roman emperor over the Carthaginians any day. Of course, for some reason the Romans really couldn't just let things stay as they were and had to force emperor-worship on the Jews, which wasn't going to happen no matter how hard they tried. Really, I bet the Jewish tribes would've been pretty loyal to Rome had they been treated fairly and left alone on religious matters.

How so? The punishment for the stupid Jewish insurgence took place after the "events" narrated in the Bible.

The Stupid Jewish Insurgence was unnecessary.

In any case the mention of the enslavement in Judea served very well, just as the Carthage example, to talk about why Auschwitz should be preserved.

Keep it there.

The Stupid Jewish Insurgence was unnecessary.Nope.
Insurgences for ideological reasons are stupid. Fundamentalist Jews were the only ones in the region who rejected the advantages of being within the Roman Empire, like having certain civil rights and freedom of religion. Plain STUPID.

Nope.
Insurgences for ideological reasons are stupid. Jews were the only ones in the region who rejected the advantages of being within the Roman Empire, like certain civil rights and freedom of religion. Plain STUPID.

Nope. Your comment is superfluous. There was no need to call the Jews stupid for being insurgent, thousands of years ago and not wanting to be under the Roman Empire. You know why they did that, right? Or are you just posting this for the sake of arguing?

She's just posting it for the sake of calling Jews stupid, I imagine.

He's just posting it for the sake of calling Jews stupid.

Yes, that's true.

How dare you quote my post before I could edit it. Wasn't there an Inquisition running around in your vicinity once upon a time?

They're slacking. ^^

Just to steer this a bit back on-topic, I can't really understand why people would want Auschwitz to fade into dust. World War II will exist in the public memory for a long time, regardless of whether or not somebody bothers to make the pilgrimage out to the more notorious sites of the Holocaust and the larger conflict. That doesn't mean that we should let these monuments to cruelty fade away, though. Like any location of historical significance, we lose a link to the past when these places go neglected.

They may have served the purpose of educating people about the horrors of the Holocaust, but that's not the only way they should be remembered. Like it or not, Auschwitz was a community, and it will always be a significant location in the history of the Jewish people, not just for the deaths that occurred there but also for the lives that persevered. Even when every direct victim of the Holocaust is dead and gone, Auschwitz and the other concentration camps will remain relevant to a vast number of people.

Preserve it. The Holocaust cannot be relegated to the history books. We are the last generation that will be able to interact with the actual survivors - I count myself fortunate to have met one. Once they are gone, the actual death camps will be the only concrete reminders.

It is important that we remember the Holocaust. We must never forget what evil humans are capable of. We must never allow it to happen again.

How dare you quote my post before I could edit it. Wasn't there an Inquisition running around in your vicinity once upon a time?

They're slacking. ^^

I haven't seen any rules about not posting unedited posts.:D

It is important to keep the facility preserved; it is important to keep it as a reminder to future generations about how evil mankind can become when he does no moderate himself, and of how hope and human will can prevail in virtually any situation. It is simultaneously one of the greatest reminders of both evil and good.

I haven't seen any rules about not posting unedited posts.:DOh, they exist. They're just not announced, so you won't expect the subsequent abduction and torture.

Remember: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Oh, they exist. They're just not announced, so you won't expect the subsequent abduction and torture.

Remember: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

I'll abduct you for being a smarty-pants.:fluffle:

I'll abduct you for being a smarty-pants.:fluffle:What about the torture? You can't forget the torture.

That's the best part. :(

What about the torture? You can't forget the torture.

That's the best part. :(

That, as those rules you mentioned, is not announced. But the torture is part and parcel of abduction by the Spanish Inquisition. Know thyself.

So one, by implication, goes along with the other? Kinda like extraordinary rendition?

...I'm just a wee bit more afraid of the CIA now. Thanks.

That, as those rules you mentioned, is not announced. But the torture is part and parcel of abduction by the Spanish Inquisition. Know thyself.

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

You just described lawyers perfectly, NA. :D

...I'm just a wee bit more afraid of the CIA now. Thanks.

As well you should be. The Spanish Inquisition is composed solely of me, at the moment. But just you wait... *dramatic squirrel look*

I voted Yes. Preserve Auschwitz

The deeds of Nazi evil must never be forgotton,the Nazi can not deny it in the future if the building is sitting right there.

You just described lawyers perfectly, NA. :D

'cept for the pope part. We're mostly jewish, you see.

Which brings us nicely back full circle....

If I remember correctly, the Dramatic Squirrel or Prairie Dog or whatever the hell it was featured alongside a couple of squeaking girls from Morning Musume.

Could I be the squeaking girls in your Inquisition?

...did I phrase that wrong?

If I remember correctly, the Dramatic Squirrel or Prairie Dog or whatever the hell it was featured alongside a couple of squeaking girls from Morning Musume.

Could I be the squeaking girls in your Inquisition?

...did I phrase that wrong?

Perhaps it's better to say you're just squeaking. No girls involved. Of course, if you do like that sort of thing we can always accomodate you...;)

Perhaps it's better to say you're just squeaking. No girls involved. Of course, if you do like that sort of thing we can always accomodate you...;)*stumbles into the thread*
...I should have known better than to think this thread would stay serious. :p
*stumbles back out*

*stumbles into the thread*
...I should have known better than to think this thread would stay serious. :p
*stumbles back out*

*grabs GF*
Where do you think you're going, mate?:wink:
*yanks him back unto the thread*
What say you about Auschwitz?

Come now, it's Auschwitz. Either Godwin's Law has been invoked or it has strayed off topic.

...squeak squeak.

Nope. Your comment is superfluous. There was no need to call the Jews stupid for being insurgent, thousands of years ago and not wanting to be under the Roman Empire. You know why they did that, right? Or are you just posting this for the sake of arguing?They did that for their ideology/religion. Although the Romans made quite a number of exceptions to allow Jews their worship and rites, that just was not enough.
The Roman Empire gave its inhabitants trade, culture, security, but Jews failed to appreciate that. Idiots.

What say you about Auschwitz?

Kakashi is a Holocaust Denier. Or...what do they call 'em these days...revisionist or something?

He wears the mask so you can't see his forked tongue.

They did that for their ideology/religion. Although the Romans made quite a number of exceptions to allow Jews their worship and rites, that just was not enough.
The Roman Empire gave its inhabitants trade, culture, security, but Jews failed to appreciate that. Idiots.

And tried to force the Jewish to worship the Emperor. That was in clear violation of Judaism. They were not idiots, they were fighting for their rights and you would do well to keep your insults in check.

They did that for their ideology/religion. Although the Romans made quite a number of exceptions to allow Jews their worship and rites, that just was not enough.
The Roman Empire gave its inhabitants trade, culture, security, but Jews failed to appreciate that. Idiots.

This children is an example of trolling. Do not imitate.

Trolling: Posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). While Trolls often make these posts strictly in an attempt to provoke negative comment, it is still trolling even if you actually hold those beliefs.

Definition courtesy of the OTRS.

This children is an example of trolling. Do not imitate.



Definition courtesy of the OTRS.

And knowledge is half the battle.

They did that for their ideology/religion. Although the Romans made quite a number of exceptions to allow Jews their worship and rites, that just was not enough.
The Roman Empire gave its inhabitants trade, culture, security, but Jews failed to appreciate that. Idiots.

Isn't that what the Jews are giving the Palestinians now? Giving them trade, culture, security? Or does that argument only work when it's in line with your biogtry?

Kakashi is a Holocaust Denier. Or...what do they call 'em these days...revisionist or something?

He wears the mask so you can't see his forked tongue.

Kakashi... from "Bleach"?:confused:

Come now, it's Auschwitz. Either Godwin's Law has been invoked or it has strayed off topic.

...squeak squeak.

Not sure Godwin's Law applies to a thread that has Nazism as part of the subject.

Kakashi... from "Bleach"?:confused:Naruto. GF's avatar.

I don't even know what's going on with Bleach these days. I can only watch one mind-numbingly slow action anime at a time.

Not sure Godwin's Law applies to a thread that has Nazism as part of the subject.Eh, I don't know if we've called anybody Hitler. Yet.

I heard a couple of Eichmanns brewing in there, though.

Naruto. GF's avatar.

I don't even know what's going on with Bleach these days. I can only watch one mind-numbingly slow action anime at a time.

Oh lords! Blasphemy! I confused anime characters and I'm an animetard!! Woe is me!!:(

Oh lords! Blasphemy! I confused anime characters and I'm an animetard!! Woe is me!!:(

No, really, they're all the same. Don't worry about it.

If you confused Konata with Kagami, then there'd be blood. And feasting. And...Pop Tarts? Corn? Fruit Loops? Entrails?

No, really, they're all the same. Don't worry about it.

If you confused Konoka with Kagami, then there'd be blood. And feasting. And...Pop Tarts? Corn? Fruit Loops? Entrails?

The problem is that they all start with K. But after a while, maybe I'll get used to it. Of course, I'm not a Narutard so I guess I'm not at fault if I confuse characters.:tongue:

Incidentally, I just mixed up Konoka from Negima with Konata from Lucky Star.

I think that's punishable by death under my own laws.

You're also Spanish, so we can let it slide. I like two parts of Europe, and you're luckily in one of 'em. :D

This has gone way off topic, and one of the rare times I was serious about something.

Is there some kind of curse that I put on serious discussions?

this is a website that is a q&a about the holocaust and the infamous auschwitz. it is extensive and covers all doubts and questions about what really happened there

MOD EDIT - The link that was in this post has been removed as it links to a hate site. That said, we won't block legitimate debate no matter how uninformed or stupid it may be.

No, and I entirely apologize for letting loose of torrent of verbal diarrhea.

I don't know if your quoting G.I. Joe helped any, though. ;)

Incidentally, I just mixed up Konoka from Negima with Konata from Lucky Star.

I think that's punishable by death under my own laws.

Are you an independent nation, by any chance? And if so, what's your policy regarding the preservation of concentration camps like Auschwitz? (For SaintB's sake)

If I were an independent nation, I'd think that preserving concentration camps is an excellent idea because of their historical significance, to say nothing about their value as teaching aids.

We're talking about the preservation of ex-concentration camps, right? I'm not sure if I want to be the guy that says "Well, sure, we should keep those things open! Where'd we put the Zyklon B?"

It's a part of our history, so no, it shouldn't go.

Loads of people died in the Colosseum, should we wreck it as well?

If I were an independent nation, I'd think that preserving concentration camps is an excellent idea because of their historical significance, to say nothing about their value as teaching aids.

We're talking about the preservation of ex-concentration camps, right? I'm not sure if I want to be the guy that says "Well, sure, we should keep those things open! Where'd we put the Zyklon B?"

Yes Ancient-san. I am referring to ex-concentration camps.

Okay!

...*nudges cyanide back into the closet with foot*...

I think SaintB is crying over the death of the thread.

No, and I entirely apologize for letting loose of torrent of verbal diarrhea.

I don't know if your quoting G.I. Joe helped any, though. ;)

I doubt quoting GI Joe helped...

I wasn't bothered at all just wondering how every thread I post in suddenly breaks out in spam :p Maybe I'm just that talented?

You're a carrier for Web ADD.

How many illicit virtual sex partners have you had over the past few months?

You're a carrier for Web ADD.

How many illicit virtual sex partners have you had over the past few months?

B-tan is a web-weapon!:D