NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, the title is oversimplified, to comply with the maximum length for thread titles.

But it does get pretty close to what I'm meaning to ask. I've read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581103), and it seems to confirm a suspicion I've had for a while. Is the quickest way to turn your kids into atheists by raising them Christian/religious?

I know it worked for my brothers and myself. Apparently, it also worked for a large number of posters on here.
So what do you think?

I always say that religion is something you should let your kids come to, not push them to. My mom never made us go to church and although my brother and I are not religious, we aren't atheists.

I was raised in a sort-of agnostic household,
With my mother not really believing in any higher power,
and my father slightly believing but not to any noticeable degree.
I turned out atheist and my sister slightly believing.

Those kids not indoctrinated would probably develop a bitter taste for their parents religion.
It would also depend on what is acceptable in their culture and community as well.
I, for one, am glad to see an increase of agnostics/atheists in the world.
Or at least a decrease in/of organized religion.

NSG does not constitute a good sample population, especially given the large number of atheists here.

Ok, the title is oversimplified, to comply with the maximum length for thread titles.

But it does get pretty close to what I'm meaning to ask. I've read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581103), and it seems to confirm a suspicion I've had for a while. Is the quickest way to turn your kids into atheists by raising them Christian/religious?

I know it worked for my brothers and myself. Apparently, it also worked for a large number of posters on here.
So what do you think?


I was raised in an atheist home, and have always belived in God, the rest of my siblings are atheist or agnostic, except for one sister who I would describe as a scarred Christian.

That is she really gave it no thought until an evil Christain friend of hers told her that because her children were not baptised they will go to hell.

My wife is atheist and my oldest son would call himself agnostic whilst my younger son is atheist.

NSG does not constitute a good sample population, especially given the large number of atheists here.

I know it's not going to be representative, but the number of atheists on here roughly reflects my friends/family, so I thought I'd see what replies I get.

Edit : Another interesting question, though. I still would have called myself Christian/Catholic when I started out on NSG. It was only on here that my ideas about myself and about religion where challenged, and I had to seriously think about them.
So could it be that a large number of people consider themselves religious for the simple reason of never having been challenged to possibly think otherwise?

Ok, the title is oversimplified, to comply with the maximum length for thread titles.

But it does get pretty close to what I'm meaning to ask. I've read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581103), and it seems to confirm a suspicion I've had for a while. Is the quickest way to turn your kids into atheists by raising them Christian/religious?

I know it worked for my brothers and myself. Apparently, it also worked for a large number of posters on here.
So what do you think?

I think it would depend on wether or not the child has a rebellious nature or not. I was brought up with religion, and still am now (different religions though), but then I'm not the rebellious type. I don't think you can generalise. ALSO, it depends on what religion or sect. It's harder to get worked up to rebel agaisnt Sufism or Unitarinism than it is against Wahabbism or Baptism.

So what do you think?

I think you're projecting your own life onto the entire population.

The end of religion will be a great day for our species.

The end of religion will be a great day for our species.

Do you really believe for a single second that the human race would find nothing else to fight about? :rolleyes:

Is the quickest way to turn your kids into atheists by raising them Christian/religious?

No. The quickest way to turn your kids into atheists is to raise them atheists. You have no control.

The subject of religion never came up in my home until I asked my mother and brother what they believe after some kids asked me if I believe. That's when I found out we're all weak atheists/agnostics/I'm too confused about the way everybody defines those terms to know what I would be considered.

I think you're projecting your own life onto the entire population.

Yes, because the population of the entire world is atheist. Well-known fact.

Eh, it's a hard thing to answer. I attend a Church of Christ-affiliated school (Ken Starr is the Dean of our Law School! -_-) and it really has made me realize that Christians can cover an enormous spectrum. You can't paint a whole group of people with the same brush. Most of the people here seem to have been raised Christian and remain Christian, but obviously this isn't the best population to sample from.

I think that religion is something that you need to grow into and understand for yourself. I don't truly believe that eliminating religion will bring peace to society. I don't believe in "their god", but I can completely understand and accept why they would believe in him. Religion is many things to many people. In this day and age of information, I'd wager that your upbringing has little bearing on whether or not you stay religious later in life.

Of course, this gets a lot trickier once you start looking at things like Buddhism that are as much a part of culture as they are of spirituality.

Yes, because the population of the entire world is atheist. Well-known fact.

Sarcasm aside, that is actually my point. If raising your children to be religious is the quickest way to make them atheist, how does religion still exist?

Edit : Another interesting question, though. I still would have called myself Christian/Catholic when I started out on NSG. It was only on here that my ideas about myself and about religion where challenged, and I had to seriously think about them.
So could it be that a large number of people consider themselves religious for the simple reason of never having been challenged to possibly think otherwise?

Now this is interesting, before I started posting on NSG my faith and beliefs were a bit hazy and wavering after this forum though I will say it wasn't only NSG that did it. My faith has actually become stronger and more resolved so while NSG both had similar effects on us we went in different directions.

Sarcasm aside, that is actually my point. If raising your children to be religious is the quickest way to make them atheist, how does religion still exist?

I'd say that one element is the fact that in most of today's society, not being religious is still inconceivable. It's not an option, and therefore not considered by many.

Now this is interesting, before I started posting on NSG my faith and beliefs were a bit hazy and wavering after this forum though I will say it wasn't only NSG that did it. My faith has actually become stronger and more resolved so while NSG both had similar effects on us we went in different directions.

I think on my part, that had a lot to do with the way I was taught about Christianity. Much of what I believed to be Christian wasn't, on closer inspection, Christian at all.
I know it will sound odd, but I had been taught both by my Catholic school and by my family a version of Christianity that isn't Christian. Only I never realised until I had people on here shouting at me how my ideas weren't Christian at all and I should stop pretending. So I thought about it, researched, and found they were right.

What is it with all the religious threads starting up on NSG again? Now that Obama is President does it mean that NSG will now start going back to its regular scheduled program; religion, abortion, USian vs. American and the usual topics that come and go that seems almost clockwork.

What is it with all the religious threads starting up on NSG again? Now that Obama is President does it mean that NSG will now start going back to its regular scheduled program; religion, abortion, USian vs. American and the usual topics that come and go that seems almost clockwork.

Hey! I haven't made a religious thread in ages, so give me a break!!! :p

I think on my part, that had a lot to do with the way I was taught about Christianity. Much of what I believed to be Christian wasn't, on closer inspection, Christian at all.
I know it will sound odd, but I had been taught both by my Catholic school and by my family a version of Christianity that isn't Christian. Only I never realised until I had people on here shouting at me how my ideas weren't Christian at all and I should stop pretending. So I thought about it, researched, and found they were right.

Oh ok fair enough, so did you look into what may be more "proper" (I use the term loosely) Christianity?

Hey! I haven't made a religious thread in ages, so give me a break!!! :p

lol, true true I am jumping the gun and you are only the second recent one, though how many more will be coming in the next week?

Option one.

I'd say that one element is the fact that in most of today's society, not being religious is still inconceivable. It's not an option, and therefore not considered by many
A nonsense argument. It's certainly an option not to be religious in the west (indeed, these days it's positively encouraged), and yet religion still exists.

lol, true true I am jumping the gun and you are only the second recent one, though how many more will be coming in the next week?

Being anti-religion is the new middle class fashion. Being Green is so last week.

Oh ok fair enough, so did you look into what may be more "proper" (I use the term loosely) Christianity?

Beats me.
All I did find out that the god the bible describes is not a character I would want to worship, and that much of what I think is right and proper goes right against the teachings of the Catholic church, as well as most other churches. And against the bible, too.

I think Jesus had some good ideas, philosophically, but he doesn't really say anything new even at the time. And the whole thing about being god's son and all that... it really sounds as if the writers of the gospels were writing what they wished, rather than what had actually happened.

For a while I thought about distilling the whole thing down to "I believe people should be nice to each other, and treat everyone the way they'd want to be treated", but then I figured it doesn't really need Christianity to make that statement, so I dropped it.

Beats me.
All I did find out that the god the bible describes is not a character I would want to worship, and that much of what I think is right and proper goes right against the teachings of the Catholic church, as well as most other churches. And against the bible, too.

I think Jesus had some good ideas, philosophically, but he doesn't really say anything new even at the time. And the whole thing about being god's son and all that... it really sounds as if the writers of the gospels were writing what they wished, rather than what had actually happened.

For a while I thought about distilling the whole thing down to "I believe people should be nice to each other, and treat everyone the way they'd want to be treated", but then I figured it doesn't really need Christianity to make that statement, so I dropped it.

Yeah ok fair enough, thanks for explaining.

What is it with all the religious threads starting up on NSG again? Now that Obama is President does it mean that NSG will now start going back to its regular scheduled program; religion, abortion, USian vs. American and the usual topics that come and go that seems almost clockwork.

Don't forget gun control!

I wasn't really raised as anything. As a young child I lived in a small farm way out in the middle of nowhere so I wasn't around people outside my family that often and my parents didn't really seem to be religious so I wasn't exposed to religion until about the age of 12 when we moved to "town". I went to church and even tried to believe because my friends did but it just never really clicked with me.

A nonsense argument. It's certainly an option not to be religious in the west (indeed, these days it's positively encouraged), and yet religion still exists.


In some parts of the West, certainly. I'm not argueing that.
But when I grew up in rural Germany not all that long ago, it was not an option. Growing up, I knew one atheist, and she was ... well, I don't want to say ostracized, but definitely shunned by the community.

And now I'm living in Ireland, and the situation is much the same. I know a few atheists who don't dare to "come out" in front of their families and dutifully go to church. And I'm talking 30-year-olds, not kids.

So what do you think?
I think it varies. For instance, I know people who have been raised in the Faith and feel pressured to stay there by their community, and consequently do. On the other hand, I've been raised Christian, and although I don't actually adhere in any way to the Christian faith, I do not consider myself Atheistic. My position is that God is subject to ontological variation; what God is - rather than simply what it means - is something that is vastly different from person to person, by virtue of the fact that it is a subjective anthropomorphic interpretation of existence made by the observer.

I think the degree to which a person is in a position to legitimately question a given institution is dependent on their exposure to it, and you will find more Atheists with good reasons to be atheists that have come from religious backgrounds than not. Of course, that's not to say there aren't intelligent Atheists with good reasons for their atheism that have not come from Religious upbringings; they just haven't necessarily had to reason through their position as rigorously as those from Religion.

I think it would depend on wether or not the child has a rebellious nature or not. I was brought up with religion, and still am now (different religions though), but then I'm not the rebellious type. I don't think you can generalise. ALSO, it depends on what religion or sect. It's harder to get worked up to rebel agaisnt Sufism or Unitarinism than it is against Wahabbism or Baptism.
I'm not the rebellious type either, but I was raised Christian and am no longer religious. But my lack of religion is simply because I just couldn't bring myself to actually believe in something for which I see no evidence, not because I was trying to rebel. I actually spent a lot of time trying to get myself to believe in God, which I now realize was probably something I did to keep my dad happy.

I'm not the rebellious type either, but I was raised Christian and am no longer religious. But my lack of religion is simply because I just couldn't bring myself to actually believe in something for which I see no evidence, not because I was trying to rebel. I actually spent a lot of time trying to get myself to believe in God, which I now realize was probably something I did to keep my dad happy.

I think that's something that a lot of people actually go through when moving away from religion.
I can only offer my own experience, but I have seen it in others as well. I tried for a long time to convince myself that I did in fact believe in god. And for a while after that, I tried to find a way of being religious without believing in god.
Being Catholic, to me, was part of my identity, and it wasn't an easy process realizing that I was in fact lying to myself and the world by upholding such a mask.

I would also question some of the supposed religious people. Does that mean going every Sunday or just going on holidays. It is very subjective. People fall away for a variety of reasons. It tends to be more important as you get older. As George Carlin says we are "cramming for the final".

Cabra West, I must politely disagree with you.

My parents are Atheists/Agnostic (my mother was never entirely clear with me; I think she's struggling with it still). They never talked about any type of religion, or even their beliefs. I had to come to my own conclusions. It was my parents' passive choice that led me to share their beliefs.

I was raised atheist, and my parents were rather insistent about it.

I became religious as a result.

My children are turning out to be even more religious than I am, and not because I'm trying to push them that way - it seems to be an act of rebellion.

The fact remains however, the vast majority of religious people have religious parents.

While most atheists, I find, were once religious, most people who are raised religiously remain religious. The only reason most atheists report growing up in a religious household, I think, is because most people grow up in religious households.

Of course, this is mostly conjecture, I might be completely wrong.

None of the above.

I was raised in a loosely Baptist based family. We would hardly ever attend church but when asked what faith we were, my mother would always reply Baptist. I found myself questioning the existance of "God" around the age ten as I delved deeper into my studies and found the concept of an omnipowerful, omnipresent being simply foolish. However, I do think that there is something more than to just what we have now, and thus keep myself labeled as a moralistic agnostic.

My parents had no use for religion, and neither do I. My eldest daughter thinks church is fun, but the youngest thinks it's weird.

I was brought into Christianity to "give me morals". The reasoning behind me going to church and becoming moral b/c of it is so ludicrous that I am now an atheist. Also, God has too many unanswered questions, as does any diety, and I find the church I go to now (A Universalist Unitarian one) to be much more accepting towards others than Christianity and other religions.

Cabra West, I must politely disagree with you.

My parents are Atheists/Agnostic (my mother was never entirely clear with me; I think she's struggling with it still). They never talked about any type of religion, or even their beliefs. I had to come to my own conclusions. It was my parents' passive choice that led me to share their beliefs.
Me too. I was genuinely surprised to discover that my grandparents were religious, thinking irreligion to be normal at the time.

I think it would depend on wether or not the child has a rebellious nature or not. I was brought up with religion, and still am now (different religions though), but then I'm not the rebellious type. I don't think you can generalise. ALSO, it depends on what religion or sect. It's harder to get worked up to rebel agaisnt Sufism or Unitarinism than it is against Wahabbism or Baptism.

I was never a rebellious child. Pretty much a paragon, actually. Didn't stop me losing faith in my early to mid teens. DOesn't mean there can't be a correlation, but I don't see one.

A nonsense argument. It's certainly an option not to be religious in the west (indeed, these days it's positively encouraged), and yet religion still exists.


I've never seen it 'encouraged'.

Ironic you should say 'nonsense argument'.

Here in Georgia, it is certainly encouraged to be religious, and any idea of difference is stamped down pretty hard. The Midlands, in England, were a milder version of the same. Basically, anywhere isolated enough, still fosters insular perspectives on religious thought... and less isolated areas tend to be more tolerant of religious diversity because they have more diverse populations.

Raised Catholic, now I'm pagan.

A nonsense argument. It's certainly an option not to be religious in the west (indeed, these days it's positively encouraged), and yet religion still exists.Where's your evidence of atheism being encouraged? Because I've noticed just the opposite.

Ok, the title is oversimplified, to comply with the maximum length for thread titles.

But it does get pretty close to what I'm meaning to ask. I've read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581103), and it seems to confirm a suspicion I've had for a while. Is the quickest way to turn your kids into atheists by raising them Christian/religious?

I know it worked for my brothers and myself. Apparently, it also worked for a large number of posters on here.
So what do you think?

I would say that most of the really religious persons out there were raised such.

My parents are both agnostic. I was agnostic most of my life until last year when I came to the conclusion I'm an atheist.

I think my sister may be agnostic, and my brother is solidly atheist.

My mom was raised Southern Baptist and my father Jehovah's Witness.

If you do anything badly, the people whom you are teaching are going to learn it badly, and then not want to do it.

I was raised agnostic; I became a disciple (Christian) in my 20's - my kids, the eldest of whom is 16, are very serious about their faith.

I personally have often been told that I don't "seem" like a Christian - I think its the bizarre sense of humor, unusual interests (sword fighting among them), and the fact that my kids and I have a GREAT time together. We are very silly.

As a result, my kids think I'm interesting, fun and have good insights into how to be a good person. Which is why they also want to walk with Christ - He has not been shown to them to be a stodgy, impersonal doctrine, but a very real person, representing a God who is kind and generous, and yet, expects a degree of obedience, just like their mom and dad.

And likewise, because they see their mom and dad not only having fun, but enjoying their relationship w/ God - and still being VERY conservative in their beliefs (we are Torah Observant Christians), they know it's not a game, and it's not make believe.

when they have questions, we can answer them. The words of Scripture are made applicable; they have meaning and realistic application.

If you teach it right, it makes sense. If you do it right, it is appealing. If you don't- well, what do you expect if you're doing it wrong??

Where's the "other" option?

It's a fallacy to say because you raise your child very religious, they'll always become atheists, equally it's a fallacy to say raising your child Atheist doesn't mean they will STAY atheist. It's always a case by case decision based on the individual. It's true some chose to break away from their religious background because of growing up in a strictly religious household, but that's not the case for every person.

If you do anything badly, the people whom you are teaching are going to learn it badly, and then not want to do it.

I was raised agnostic; I became a disciple (Christian) in my 20's - my kids, the eldest of whom is 16, are very serious about their faith.

I personally have often been told that I don't "seem" like a Christian - I think its the bizarre sense of humor, unusual interests (sword fighting among them), and the fact that my kids and I have a GREAT time together. We are very silly.

As a result, my kids think I'm interesting, fun and have good insights into how to be a good person. Which is why they also want to walk with Christ - He has not been shown to them to be a stodgy, impersonal doctrine, but a very real person, representing a God who is kind and generous, and yet, expects a degree of obedience, just like their mom and dad.

And likewise, because they see their mom and dad not only having fun, but enjoying their relationship w/ God - and still being VERY conservative in their beliefs (we are Torah Observant Christians), they know it's not a game, and it's not make believe.

when they have questions, we can answer them. The words of Scripture are made applicable; they have meaning and realistic application.

If you teach it right, it makes sense. If you do it right, it is appealing. If you don't- well, what do you expect if you're doing it wrong??

High Five, Brother!

My parents did the same thing with raising me and introducing me to faith, and I gotta say, I'm glad they took this approach instead of the rigid, hard-line indoctrination that I've seen so many times with most of my friends ((who have turned out agnostic/atheist under strict religious parents)). I think it grew into a much healthier, much more tolerant faith.

I know it's not going to be representative, but the number of atheists on here roughly reflects my friends/family, so I thought I'd see what replies I get.
Then you find out what happens on NSG, not to the world at large.

Edit : Another interesting question, though. I still would have called myself Christian/Catholic when I started out on NSG. It was only on here that my ideas about myself and about religion where challenged, and I had to seriously think about them.
So could it be that a large number of people consider themselves religious for the simple reason of never having been challenged to possibly think otherwise?
I'd say that it would be a case by case basis because questioning religion, particularly your own, can happen in a wide variety of ways.

I didn't have an really an religious raising, my father is an lapsed catholic who goes to mass once in an while and my mother was an lutheran but is now an deist. Neither tried to raise me with any religious views though we have discused the nature of god and I was bapisted as an catholic as an baby.

I did the read the bible however front to back both as an child and as an adult which led me to lean heavly towards the catholic faith and I now attend mass on occasion. My mother on the other hand read the bible and it led her to becoming an deist.

I was raised in an atheist household, and have since arrived at theism.

I would not say I that I am religious. I do not like how organised religion tends to attract those who seek power for their own ends, but I have the same beef with capitalism and any other system that involves unaccountable hierarchies.

I was raised catholic and arrived at weak atheism without so much rebelling against my parents. Not that I didn't but that was earlier and because my parents insisted that we went to church when they would not go. I tried to find God but didn't. Tried to become a Buddhist. I realized that I could not make myself believe in this religion as well. Well, then I read about atheism and it made most sense to me.

The poll definitely needs an 'other' option, if only to accommodate those of us who fit in the 'raised religious / then agnostic / then religious again (but not the same way as raised)' category.

Anglican -> agnostic -> [Russian] Orthodox, for the record.

I'd imagine you'd be more likely to be religious if your parents were religious, not less so.
However seeing as many messages in media/films etc aren't particularly religious it's likely religion in a loose sense of the word will dilute in Western countries.
However i don't think i or the OP is doing justice to how we define religion, it's a very abstract concept, i mean there could be any manner of ways of saying you're religious.
Say you support a basketball team all your life and love the players are you religious?
Say you donate money to charity and keep up on political events, and try to make things better for them are you religious?
Say you pray at a Shrine/building to a greater idea or God are you religious?
Suddenly this concept of religion becomes alot harder to quantify, is it what the majority think is right or is it even more complex than that?
Is religion defined by the outcome of a persons efforts or the intention?

From what i've said basically religion can mean any number of things, festivals, sports or thought processes it really depends on how you define it to work out if people stay religious in a different sense of the word.
Just because someone was brought up to believe in a certain God and now denies that God doesn't mean they're less religious i think it would mean they have just changed their idea of what they might aspire to be or not to be.

I think heavily pushing religion onto your children is probably a good way to turn them away from it - either towards another religion or towards atheism.

But I would guess that it would go both ways. If a child's parents are constantly trying to push atheism on them, they might turn to religion later in life.

The moral? Let your kids find their own path. Yes, it might be different from yours, but it is their path to find.

I would say that most of the really religious persons out there were raised such.

This hasn't been my experience. Most of the fundamentalist-types I've known were raised in somewhat religious households. From what I've seen it's often the converts who are the most extreme about any religion. So someone who was raised either without religion or in a less stringent household is often the type who becomes the most extreme about religion later on.

My parents were married in a Catholic church and then decided that Catholicism is bad and to let us believe whatever we want.
I was an atheist as a preteen, around which time my mom got super spiritual in a 12 step program. Then around 14 I got pretty spiritual. I had a really good relationship with a higher power there for a minute. Now, I'm kinda confused and lost again.


I believe no one can be forced into believing anything.
I don't know if I'd have a stronger relationship with God if I had been brought up that way. Or maybe I would if I had just grown up in a stable environment.

But people forge relationships with higher powers on their own and it's not something they can be forced into.

I'm wondering though. Do they still ask you in Belfast, "Are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"

I was raised by parents with Christian backgrounds and vague Christian beliefs, but without much religious upbringing. I generally only attended church/Bible study when visiting my grandparents.

I never really believed in Christianity and have been avowed athiest since I was a teenager.