NationStates Jolt Archive

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...

Im saying that the Vietnam War was a direct result of the Containment Policy and the overall Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union, and furthermore that the Red Scare was a part of the Cold War Containment policy and that trying to separate the two, is foolish...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

welllll

in many ways the vietnam war was a proxy war between us and the soviets so i guess you could say that it was part of the cold war.

those sorts of definitions are well outside my expertise.

I always thought that Vietnam was an attempt to thwart the domino effect.

And the cold war was an arms race/nuclear stand off between the US/UK/West Germany/NATO/etc etc and the USSR/Warsaw Pact.

You could probably find a link, but I'm sure North Vietnam would of tried to have taken the South no matter what.

There is something stupid like 184 wars fought during the Cold War.

Re Scare was due to the Cold War, Vietnam was due to the combined effects of the Cold War and American imperialism. Your friend is wrong and stupid.

depends on the red scare your talking about since there was at least 2 of them in the united states.
link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare)
The term Red Scare has been retroactively applied to two distinct periods of strong anti-Communism in United States history: first from 1917 to 1920, and second from the late 1940s through the late 1950s. These periods were characterized by heightened suspicion of Communists and radicals, and the fear of widespread infiltration of Communists in U.S. government.

I always thought that Vietnam was an attempt to thwart the domino effect.

And the cold war was an arms race/nuclear stand off between the US/UK/West Germany/NATO/etc etc and the USSR/Warsaw Pact.

You could probably find a link, but I'm sure North Vietnam would of tried to have taken the South no matter what.

There is something stupid like 184 wars fought during the Cold War.
im pretty sure that the domino effect was made up to justify the vietnam war.

depends on the red scare your talking about since there was at least 2 of them in the united states.
link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare)

wow, I knew about our actions against the Bolsheviks in 1917, however I thought the term "Red Scare" was wholly a product of the Cold War era...

im pretty sure that the domino effect was made up to justify the vietnam war.

The Domino effect and Containment go hand in hand. Both were theorized in the late 40s. The containment policy was created to prevent the domino effect.

The Domino effect and Containment go hand in hand. Both were theorized in the late 40s. The containment policy was created to prevent the domino effect.

True, but, imo the theory was disproven, largely by the Vietnam war, because after it fell to communism, their neighbors did not...

Largely Im asking if the Vietnam War was caused by the Cold War, and Was a Part of it...

and If not, what did cause it?

True, but, imo the theory was disproven, largely by the Vietnam war, because after it fell to communism, their neighbors did not...

Largely Im asking if the Vietnam War was caused by the Cold War, and Was a Part of it...

and If not, what did cause it?

Depends, where does the buck stop?

You could ultimately go way way back to the French involvement in the 1950's.

A question I'm more interested in, (not to hijack your thread) Is what may of happened if the UK got involved when the French asked. As we had the experience from Malaya, could have helped. Who knows.

Depends, where does the buck stop?

You could ultimately go way way back to the French involvement in the 1950's.

A question I'm more interested in, (not to hijack your thread) Is what may of happened if the UK got involved when the French asked. As we had the experience from Malaya, could have helped. Who knows.
helped what? keep the vietnamese under the thumb of the french?

helped what? keep the vietnamese under the thumb of the french?

Point I'm trying to make is if the British did what the French asked, and joined in in the early 50's, instead of just giving them aircraft and stuff, because of the experience the British had in counter insurgency, i.e Malaya, Oman, and Aden. Would that of helped the French keep control? and if the French kept control, what next?

id have to guess that the brits made the right decision there. they didnt need to be involved in helping france keep indochina.

Agreed.

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...
Your friend is a moron.

True, but, imo the theory was disproven, largely by the Vietnam war, because after it fell to communism, their neighbors did not...
Erm? Laos and Cambodia much?

im pretty sure that the domino effect was made up to justify the vietnam war.
Nah, it was used way back as far as the 1940s, with the Greek Civil War as one example, the Korean War being another. That and the whole Marshall Plan thing, which gave the US and Western Europe nearly 30 years of sustained economic growth before the 1973 oil crisis.

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...

Im saying that the Vietnam War was a direct result of the Containment Policy and the overall Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union, and furthermore that the Red Scare was a part of the Cold War Containment policy and that trying to separate the two, is foolish...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

I blame the French.

I blame the French.

Well, of course, its Europe in general that is too blame for most of the worlds problems.

Well, of course, its Europe in general that is too blame for most of the worlds problems.

Mimes for example. *nod*

Erm? Laos and Cambodia much?

Well, i was under the impression they went Commie before the war had ended...

Mimes for example. *nod*
Don't make me hurt you with my invisible shovel.

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...

Im saying that the Vietnam War was a direct result of the Containment Policy and the overall Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union, and furthermore that the Red Scare was a part of the Cold War Containment policy and that trying to separate the two, is foolish...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

The "Red Scare" is not different from the Cold War at all; and you should tell your friend that the real escalation in Vietnam happened after the Red Scare ended.

helped what? keep the vietnamese under the thumb of the french?

According to Richard Nixon, one of the greatest mistakes over there was blatant French racism, which sapped the ("good") Vietnamese fighting spirit.

im pretty sure that the domino effect was made up to justify the vietnam war.

The Malay Conflict for the lolz. They called it "containment" and said they were getting rid of the communist, in reality there really weren't any, but in backlash a Malay communist group did pop up.

Well, i was under the impression they went Commie before the war had ended...

No, the North was commie before the war. The French allowing the North to fall to communism is what triggered it.

No, the North was commie before the war. The French allowing the North to fall to communism is what triggered it.

No,no, no, no...Not North Vietnam, but, Cambodia and Laos, I was responding to his post...

Re Scare was due to the Cold War, Vietnam was due to the combined effects of the Cold War and American imperialism. Your friend is wrong and stupid.

Your friend is a moron.

alot of observation about other people reveals more about your own personality and thoughts than the person being observed, so i thought you guys might want to consider this.

No,no, no, no...Not North Vietnam, but, Cambodia and Laos, I was responding to his post...

Yes, the north falling to the communists is what triggered Laos and Cambodia to fall as well.

there was the accusation at the time that the war was about oil.
the counter claim was that they had no oil

viet nam presently produces near 400,000 bbl per day at this time
that and other economic interests at the time cause me to think
of Iraq as vietnam the 2nd

Oh sorry
the secret bombings (well not so secret to the people that lived there but secret to the people of the U.S.) into neutral countries severly weakened the respective gov'ts in the eyes of their people. going communist was basically an anti U.S. action

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...

Im saying that the Vietnam War was a direct result of the Containment Policy and the overall Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union, and furthermore that the Red Scare was a part of the Cold War Containment policy and that trying to separate the two, is foolish...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

You are right, and your friend is wrong.

So very wrong.

You should smack him upside the head.

Well, i was under the impression they went Commie before the war had ended...
Aye but the issue was that the North was communist the whole time, and outside of special ops stuff, the US didn't go above the South Vietnamese border. So their idea of "containing" communism was never going to work in the first place, and what we got from it was a damned bloodbath to no good end either for the North or South, and it utterly destabilised the region.

I blame the French.

They're actually one of the main reasons the US got involved in Vietnam.

The US was shoring up their re-colonization effort in order to help keep French forces in Europe to counter the Soviet threat.

I like the Sound Track!

Where can I get a copy?

They're actually one of the main reasons the US got involved in Vietnam.
Not the second time, no. When they helped the French keep hold of Indochina, fair enough, you have a point. The second time it was about slapping democracy in the face by invading before the country voted to go wholly communist.
The US was shoring up their re-colonization effort in order to help keep French forces in Europe to counter the Soviet threat.
Well they didn't send any troops, they just sent equipment, so I'm not sure what you're on about here.

You are right, and your friend is wrong.

So very wrong.

You should smack him upside the head.

Tell you the truth, Id really like too in this instance...But, Im trying to beat him over with Facts...

Ive given him multiple facts from Multiple sources, such as those on Wikipedia, and various Text Books from College, but he refuses to accept reality...

Apparently someone in High School told him the Red Scare and the Cold War are two seperate entities, and he has a problem with something called "the Cold War" having actual shooting involved...

Ive tried to explain that just because it was called a Cold War doesnt mean there wasnt any shooting involved, He also refuses to accept that the Soviets were arming and aiding the VietCong...and then when I pointed out to him the several things they did, he's now trying to say the Soviets were doing it without US knowledge and that, it was therefore not part of the rationale for war...

What would really be nice is documentation showing that not only were the Soviets giving them arms, but that we in fact knew about it...

What would really be nice is documentation showing that not only were the Soviets giving them arms, but that we in fact knew about it...
Yeah best of luck with that. It's going to be classified information for next 60-odd years.

Yeah best of luck with that. It's going to be classified information for next 60-odd years.

Exactly...Its like, He wants me to prove something thats impossible to prove, simply because he refuses to see reason...Its fricken annoying...

Exactly...Its like, He wants me to prove something thats impossible to prove, simply because he refuses to see reason...Its fricken annoying...
Just tell him that the Red Scare and Cold War were two parts of the même chose. And if he doesn't believe you, ask why he hates freedom then walk off before he can reply.

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

Thou art.

Speaking of which . . . can anyone explain to me why the Vietnam war was fought the way it was? (helicopter warfare at its worst . . .)

Speaking of which . . . can anyone explain to me why the Vietnam war was fought the way it was? (helicopter warfare at its worst . . .)

Well, I imagine they used helicopters cause itd be a real pain to trounce through the jungle on foot....

As to why it was fought the way it was, In my opinion they were still trying to plan wars based on WWII and Korean War tactics, in a nation with massively thick Jungles and against an enemy smart enough to employ more efficient Guerrilla tactics...

Well, I imagine they used helicopters cause itd be a real pain to trounce through the jungle on foot....

As to why it was fought the way it was, In my opinion they were still trying to plan wars based on WWII and Korean War tactics, in a nation with massively thick Jungles and against an enemy smart enough to employ more efficient Guerrilla tactics...
Point. And I wasn't suggesting helicopters were a bad Idea. Far from it but the way in which they were used was . . .not impressive. I suspect your right about the WWII/ Korea tactics.

They're actually one of the main reasons the US got involved in Vietnam.

The US was shoring up their re-colonization effort in order to help keep French forces in Europe to counter the Soviet threat.

Fucking mimes! :mad:

Me and one of my friends have been having an argument since about 2AM last night, About Vietnam and the Cold War...

He believes that Vietnam and the Cold War are separate and are not interrelated, rather that the Vietnam was part of the Red Scare, which, according to him, is separate and wholly different than the Cold War...

Im saying that the Vietnam War was a direct result of the Containment Policy and the overall Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union, and furthermore that the Red Scare was a part of the Cold War Containment policy and that trying to separate the two, is foolish...

What do you think, oh wise members of NSG, who is right?

Rarely are things all right or all wrong.
you are 75% right and he is 75% wrong. and the little bit he is right is not for the reasons he stated. Ho Chi Minh was really only a communist of convenience. After WWII Ho Chi Minh read a Vietnamese translation of the US declaration of Independence with one alteration he said pursuit of property instead of pursuit of happiness. partly do to an issue with translation and partly to acknowledge Locke.
when the French Came back Ho Chi Minh was willing to compromise with local autonomy because the Vietnamese had resisted the Japanese. And they had requested US mediation in the talks.
So no help from the US Ho Chi Minh sought support from USSR.

conclusions it was 75% cold war 25% US failing to help the decolonization movement.

Don't make me hurt you with my invisible shovel.

I'm wearing an invisible helmet. :)

Point. And I wasn't suggesting helicopters were a bad Idea. Far from it but the way in which they were used was . . .not impressive. I suspect your right about the WWII/ Korea tactics.

See the successful British campaign in Malaya, that's what pioneered the US helicopter tactics, deploying the SAS by helicopter, support, etc etc.

Also, there was an extensive ground campaign by US and allied forces. And the fire base idea.

I'm wearing an invisible helmet. :)
That's not where the shovel is going to go. Guess again.

Is the sound track no longer commercially available? What about yard sales?

Is the sound track no longer commercially available? What about yard sales?
www.timelife.com/sixties

www.timelife.com/sixties

Sweet! :cool:

That's not where the shovel is going to go. Guess again.

:eek:

*runs*

Mimes for example. *nod*

I guess you aren't receiving your supplies of Camembert and Champagne lately. Camembert and Champagne are the only things that makes mimes tolerable. Well, we might include foie gras and some pain beurre.

Speaking of which . . . can anyone explain to me why the Vietnam war was fought the way it was? (helicopter warfare at its worst . . .)
Because if you haven't lived in a jungle or mountainous region, or been in one for a long time, moving about is very, very slow and a lot of the soldiers there were only there a year and then went back to the cities.

So flying them about made sense, not that it was the only way they travelled by any means.