NationStates Jolt Archive

So, the other day, buddy of mine and I had a disagreement. We were watching a re-run of Futurama, and the issue came up of whether premise of minus 173 Celsius violates absolute zero. I claimed it does not, and told him he was thinking of Kelvin. He told me to go read the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics "because you can't go below absolute zero on any scale". I told him I agreed with that, but that absolute zero in Celsius occurs at something like -273.15 C. It went downhill from there and got ugly.

So, anyway, the next day, somebody let it slip to him that we were going to go play Vampire The Masquerade (we use old 2ed stuff), and he asked to come along. I told him that it had been decided not to invite him.

He became naturally upset, and said I was very immature to use our argument the night before as a reason to blackball him from the game. I explained to him that the decision to not invite him had been made a week before (all of the people in the game that have met him had asked the previous week that he not be invited).

He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."

Suddenly, something in my head snapped. I honestly felt it go. It hurts. It still hurts. Its like a headache, but its also building up some kind of painful bile in my stomach and I can't stop throwing up.

Its been a few days, and I can't get it out of my head. I have little flecks of blood in my hair from clutching my skull. I can't sleep. And this isn't the first time. This has been happening more and more, over the last five years, when people say things like that.

I've seen doctors of various kinds, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-convulseants (lot of "off label" treatment of this kind of thing, I'm told). I've tried blending it with counseling, cognitive therapy, etc.

I can't hold my son, because when these thought hit me, sometimes I twitch. I'm afraid I'll drop him.

These thoughts won't go away. I'm starting to wonder if they can actually kill me.

Can a thought kill you?

If it causes you to accidentally kill yourself, eg drive off a cliff, then yes.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure not. Unless you have something I'm not aware of.

Sounds like the clap. You sure it was just a thought, or did you actually go out and buy the hooker?

Sounds like the clap. You sure it was just a thought, or did you actually go out and buy the hooker?

Interestingly enough, I'm told that some STD's can cause some kind of dementia, but they've done blood work of all kinds, and I'm clean.

Besides, the places where I do my whoring require monthly checkups and the girls are issued health cards.

These thoughts won't go away. I'm starting to wonder if they can actually kill me.

Can a thought kill you?

Depends, is the thinking the thought acting on objectively objective rational self interest?

So, the other day, buddy of mine and I had a disagreement. We were watching a re-run of Futurama, and the issue came up of whether premise of minus 173 Celsius violates absolute zero. I claimed it does not, and told him he was thinking of Kelvin. He told me to go read the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics "because you can't go below absolute zero on any scale". I told him I agreed with that, but that absolute zero in Celsius occurs at something like -273.15 C. It went downhill from there and got ugly.

So, anyway, the next day, somebody let it slip to him that we were going to go play Vampire The Masquerade (we use old 2ed stuff), and he asked to come along. I told him that it had been decided not to invite him.

He became naturally upset, and said I was very immature to use our argument the night before as a reason to blackball him from the game. I explained to him that the decision to not invite him had been made a week before (all of the people in the game that have met him had asked the previous week that he not be invited).

He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."
Your friend brought in Godwin's Law IRL over being excluded from playing some RPG-like game?

Are you making this story up?

Depends, is the thinking the thought acting on objectively objective rational self interest?

No, I think it might be irrational self-objectifying.

In all seriousness, its making me unable to work, study, spend time with my wife and son. It hit me this morning and I threw up on the street while taking the trash out.

The worried look my dog gave me would've been adorable if I hadn't been in such intense pain.

Your friend brought in Godwin's Law IRL over being excluded from playing some RPG-like game?

Are you making this story up?

It gets worse. My brain has stored up hundreds of these events, they can be triggered by almost anything.

And the worst thing is, the nazi reference isn't even what is killing me about what he said.

Even if he had used any other old event, what he said, the line of reasoning he applied, is making me wish I'd just have a seizure and die so it would stop hurting.

No, I think it might be irrational self-objectifying.

In all seriousness, its making me unable to work, study, spend time with my wife and son. It hit me this morning and I threw up on the street while taking the trash out.

The worried look my dog gave me would've been adorable if I hadn't been in such intense pain.

Since the thought is not from objective rational self interest, the problem must be with the economy. Since laissez faire capitalism is the only system that is purely from rational self interest, acting out of irrationality will be impossible, and thus your problem will be solved!

Unless it's River Tam saying "Also, I can kill you with my brain..." - no.

Yet what would help you is surround yourself with fewer idiots and ignorant people - and when the idiots do talk bullshit like that, tell'em right then and there (be blunt if you have to) what kind of bullshit you think they're talking.

That way, that bull doesn't creep into your system. You seem to have a very strong sense of justice, equity and fairness paired with empathy. It's hard to see others fail in that respect, and you take it to heart. It's taken me a long time (hailing from the same corner here, and I'm still trying to improve on that constantly) to not let other persons' shortcomings raise my temper.

Usually it works, sometimes I fail - but I've learned not to bottle things up because sooner or later they're going to haunt you, hurt you, and eat you up.

Either confront the matter immediately and thus deal with it then and there if you feel it's important and worth it - or try to dismiss it if you feel it's not worth it. You'll see, that new perspective might save you some gray hairs (or an early heart-attack).

Good luck - And "Illegitimi non carborundum": Don't let the bastards grind you down!!!

It gets worse. My brain has stored up hundreds of these events, they can be triggered by almost anything.

And the worst thing is, the nazi reference isn't even what is killing me about what he said.

Even if he had used any other old event, what he said, the line of reasoning he applied, is making me wish I'd just have a seizure and die so it would stop hurting.
... seriously? Is this a joke or not?

Yes, it is a joke.

So, the other day, buddy of mine and I had a disagreement. We were watching a re-run of Futurama, and the issue came up of whether premise of minus 173 Celsius violates absolute zero. I claimed it does not, and told him he was thinking of Kelvin. He told me to go read the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics "because you can't go below absolute zero on any scale". I told him I agreed with that, but that absolute zero in Celsius occurs at something like -273.15 C. It went downhill from there and got ugly.

So, anyway, the next day, somebody let it slip to him that we were going to go play Vampire The Masquerade (we use old 2ed stuff), and he asked to come along. I told him that it had been decided not to invite him.

He became naturally upset, and said I was very immature to use our argument the night before as a reason to blackball him from the game. I explained to him that the decision to not invite him had been made a week before (all of the people in the game that have met him had asked the previous week that he not be invited).

He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."

Suddenly, something in my head snapped. I honestly felt it go. It hurts. It still hurts. Its like a headache, but its also building up some kind of painful bile in my stomach and I can't stop throwing up.

Its been a few days, and I can't get it out of my head. I have little flecks of blood in my hair from clutching my skull. I can't sleep. And this isn't the first time. This has been happening more and more, over the last five years, when people say things like that.

I've seen doctors of various kinds, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-convulseants (lot of "off label" treatment of this kind of thing, I'm told). I've tried blending it with counseling, cognitive therapy, etc.

I can't hold my son, because when these thought hit me, sometimes I twitch. I'm afraid I'll drop him.

These thoughts won't go away. I'm starting to wonder if they can actually kill me.

Can a thought kill you?

There is a universal law: "People are stupid".

This can be applied in various ways - some indirect "I shouldn't let that guy stress me, he's stupid", and some more direct "That's an interesting argument - see, this is why we agreed not to invite you - you're stupid".

And, the beauty of it is - like crying - once you've expressed how stupid the offending article is, the catharsis is functional, and the pressure releases.

A thought, of itself, cannot kill. But if the sort of thoughts you are having are about Ann Coulter and Michele Bachmann having lesbian sex... you might wish they could.

... seriously? Is this a joke or not?

The problem with being a satirist, even a mediocre one such as myself, is that people never believe you, even when you're being dead serious.

Yes, it is a joke.

No, its not. I'm usually fairly clear when I'm being satirical. People don't always get it, but I put starkly evident indicators in my work to indicate it as such.

This is serious.

Unless it's River Tam saying "Also, I can kill you with my brain..." - no.

Yet what would help you is surround yourself with fewer idiots and ignorant people - and when the idiots do talk bullshit like that, tell'em right then and there (be blunt if you have to) what kind of bullshit you think they're talking.


If I'm learning anything from this life, the "real" part of it or the online part, its that this doesn't work. If you call someone on bullshit, they just call bullshit back. Some percentage of the time, they're right, but even the monstrous shit like in my OP...they just remain unconvinced.


That way, that bull doesn't creep into your system. You seem to have a very strong sense of justice, equity and fairness paired with empathy. It's hard to see others fail in that respect, and you take it to heart. It's taken me a long time (hailing from the same corner here, and I'm still trying to improve on that constantly) to not let other persons' shortcomings raise my temper.

Usually it works, sometimes I fail - but I've learned not to bottle things up because sooner or later they're going to haunt you, hurt you, and eat you up.

Either confront the matter immediately and thus deal with it then and there if you feel it's important and worth it - or try to dismiss it if you feel it's not worth it. You'll see, that new perspective might save you some gray hairs (or an early heart-attack).

Good luck - And "Illegitimi non carborundum": Don't let the bastards grind you down!!!

What you're describing is similar to what some therapists have said. For some reason, it doesn't take any of the edge off for me, and when this kind of things happens, it stays with me.

There is a universal law: "People are stupid".

This can be applied in various ways - some indirect "I shouldn't let that guy stress me, he's stupid", and some more direct "That's an interesting argument - see, this is why we agreed not to invite you - you're stupid".

And, the beauty of it is - like crying - once you've expressed how stupid the offending article is, the catharsis is functional, and the pressure releases.

I've found this doesn't work for me. If you tell these people "you're stupid", they just say "nice ad hom" or something similar. Calling it or them stupid explains nothing. Saying it doesn't help.


A thought, of itself, cannot kill. But if the sort of thoughts you are having are about Ann Coulter and Michele Bachmann having lesbian sex... you might wish they could.

Ann Coulter has my pelvis, but she's not using it as a pelvis (okay, this line is satire, the rest isn't).

I've found this doesn't work for me. If you tell these people "you're stupid", they just say "nice ad hom" or something similar. Calling it or them stupid explains nothing. Saying it doesn't help.


Perhaps you are making the terrible mistake of caring what they say in response, or what they think.


Ann Coulter has my pelvis, but she's not using it as a pelvis (okay, this line is satire, the rest isn't).

Wait, that bit's NOT serious?

If it's serious, talk to a psychiatrist about it.

No, its not. I'm usually fairly clear when I'm being satirical. People don't always get it, but I put starkly evident indicators in my work to indicate it as such.

This is serious.
if its real its a mental illness.

it needs not a therapist but a psychiatrist--because a psychiatrist is an MD.

The problem with being a satirist, even a mediocre one such as myself, is that people never believe you, even when you're being dead serious.
Perhaps because the story itself sounds ridiculous enough to make people wonder if telling this story is something you did for the lulz, especially when you claim that:

- A disagreement about the meanings of temperatures "got ugly"

- A "buddy" of yours would compare your decision to exclude him from playing Vampire the Masquerade to the Nazis' decision to gas Jews

- You found this comparison legitimate enough to make you get sick with guilt and still "can't stop throwing up"

- You're convinced that thoughts like this will actually kill you

The former two could be explained by your buddy being incredibly unreasonable, and the latter two could be explained by you being incredibly unreasonable. The story just doesn't make sense though. Maybe such kind of comparisons would be made in an online webforum debate between people on each others' "friends" list, but among IRL friends? Just doesn't...

Perhaps you are making the terrible mistake of caring what they say in response, or what they think.


If its a mistake, its one being compounded by every part of me.

The physical manifestations are becoming progressively more extreme. My wife says I'm sobbing a lot at night. I've starting hitting my own head frequently.

The worst part is, many don't even see why what he said is causing my mind to die.

if its real its a mental illness.

it needs not a therapist but a psychiatrist--because a psychiatrist is an MD.

I've gone through five MD Psychiatrists. They are from whom I get the anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and anti-convulsants that have been tried.

The one with the most well regarded practice in my entire state, after four months, said "You're becoming too intense, its giving me a taste of what your condition is like. Its probably intractable. It would be easier for me to treat a psychotic than you."

No. A thought cannot kill you, unless you get US Psy. Ops. training.
I will refer you now to a WWII US PsyOps recruitment poster:

http://www.kevinshurtleff.com/wp-content/gallery/funny/crush_germans_mind.jpg

If it's serious, talk to a psychiatrist about it.

The OP was kind of long, I can see where you might have missed it.

I mentioned in post #1 that I've seen doctors of various kinds and tried a wide range of psychotropic drugs. The combination of those two facts should infer at least the likelihood that I've seen and continued to see psychiatrists.

If I'm learning anything from this life, the "real" part of it or the online part, its that this doesn't work. If you call someone on bullshit, they just call bullshit back. Some percentage of the time, they're right, but even the monstrous shit like in my OP...they just remain unconvinced.
Ahh, here's a thought for you: It's not about convincing the others - it's all about you venting some steam and either a) getting the shit out of your system and b) getting to a point (this is what you'd want to be aiming for in the long run!) where other persons' brain sewage does not get to you.

You can't honestly try to take on the idiocy of the world all by yourself. But that doesn't mean you'll have to inhale their brainfarts uncontested.
What you're describing is similar to what some therapists have said. For some reason, it doesn't take any of the edge off for me, and when this kind of things happens, it stays with me.
It might help you to remind yourself not to let this get to you personally. (It's hard to put this in words, let alone in a foreign language).

Maybe it would be helpful for you to sit down and make a written list of things that come to your mind - and then think about what upset you and why, followed by an active decision to not let those things bother you any longer.
Cross them off the list and when you're done, maybe burn it.

If I may suggest, it does sound like you could need some additional counseling. And I'm not sure that a psychiatrist is the person to see - you should go to a psychologist instead! It sounds like it's not your brain itself but rather the way you (subconsciously) chose to use it that causes problems. (As a reminder, I'm not a professional or an expert, but I can talk from a perspective of "been there, done that").

(How old are you, by the way? Maybe you'll be able to get a different perspective on things at an older age?)

If its a mistake, its one being compounded by every part of me.

The physical manifestations are becoming progressively more extreme. My wife says I'm sobbing a lot at night. I've starting hitting my own head frequently.

The worst part is, many don't even see why what he said is causing my mind to die.

It sounds like an obsessive compulsive manifestation. It also sounds like autism spectrum responses. The question would be - is the obsessive compulsive reaction rooted in a diagnosed or undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder - or is the behaviour autism-spectrum-similar, and rooted in a response to the OCD.

You mentioned off-label prescription. Has that included Prozac yet?

A thought can't kill you. That is just fucking ridiculous.
Now, what can happen is that the thought will unbalance your life force, causing illness and eventual death (as it sounds like you are suffering). The key to recovery is rebalancing your life force, which must be done either by removing some of your life force (like removing weight from the heavy side of a scale), or by stealing the life force of another (like adding weight to the light side of a scale). The only problem with both of these methods is that they are technically impossible, unless you happen to be a character in a poorly written fantasy series.
Are you a character in a poorly written fantasy series? Well, even then it doesn't really matter, because if you're destined to survive, you can rely on someone else to do the heavy lifting. Otherwise, I suggest dressing in whites or blacks (they look symbolic; nobody wants to die wearing deep teal or taupe), remaining in close proximity to running water, and preparing a final monologue. Make sure it has plenty of...pauses so that...you can cough...or vomit...blood.. as needed. Leave a place to trail o-...

Perhaps because the story itself sounds ridiculous enough to make people wonder if telling this story is something you did for the lulz, especially when you claim that:

- A disagreement about the meanings of temperatures "got ugly"

- A "buddy" of yours would compare your decision to exclude him from playing Vampire the Masquerade to the Nazis' decision to gas Jews

- You found this comparison legitimate enough to make you get sick with guilt and still "can't stop throwing up"

- You're convinced that thoughts like this will actually kill you

You...think I found this comparison legitimate? That its guilt making me throw up? THAT'S what you think I'm claiming? Thats what you read there?

Its the fact that you think its the comparison between the two that is the problem. This is the worst thing. Its not just him. Other people don't see the problem:

We had an argument the night before. The next day he was not invited to a gathering. He claims the reason he wasn't invited was because of the argument the night before. I explain the decision was made a week ago.
He raises an example to show why a decision is not made better by time.

Now, even if he hadn't use the nazi example, but some other more reasonable one, can somebody, anybody, please, for my life's sake, restore my faith in humanity by identifying the actual error in his reasoning was? Because the most critical one wasn't his comparison itself.


The former two could be explained by your buddy being incredibly unreasonable, and the latter two could be explained by you being incredibly unreasonable. The story just doesn't make sense though. Maybe such kind of comparisons would be made in an online webforum debate between people on each others' "friends" list, but among IRL friends? Just doesn't...

Your third point above, the fact that you think thats what I'm claiming, makes you a new trigger. You and what you've said here are now part of what's killing me, or at least making me want to die.

Invade Poland. Its the only solution.

Just because someone is the most well-regarded in the state, it doesn't mean they're the best in the state.

I've gone through five MD Psychiatrists. They are from whom I get the anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and anti-convulsants that have been tried.

The one with the most well regarded practice in my entire state, after four months, said "You're becoming too intense, its giving me a taste of what your condition is like. Its probably intractable. It would be easier for me to treat a psychotic than you."
then you should visit your local scientology center...

It might help you to remind yourself not to let this get to you personally. (It's hard to put this in words, let alone in a foreign language).

Maybe it would be helpful for you to sit down and make a written list of things that come to your mind - and then think about what upset you and why, followed by an active decision to not let those things bother you any longer.
Cross them off the list and when you're done, maybe burn it.

With the exception of the burning, this was tried by one my doctors. It didn't work, but take heart knowing I once paid a lot of money to get the advice you just gave for free.


If I may suggest, it does sound like you could need some additional counseling. And I'm not sure that a psychiatrist is the person to see - you should go to a psychologist instead! It sounds like it's not your brain itself but rather the way you (subconsciously) chose to use it that causes problems. (As a reminder, I'm not a professional or an expert, but I can talk from a perspective of "been there, done that").

I have a team of both Psychiatrists and Psychologists, and at various times the psychologists have been from various school of thought on the subject. Lots of things have been tried over years.


(How old are you, by the way? Maybe you'll be able to get a different perspective on things at an older age?)

Mid thirties.

Just because someone is the most well-regarded in the state, it doesn't mean they're the best in the state.

Yes, that's why I tried several others as mentioned.

Thoughts can kill you. That was the whole point of that Jenny Agutter movie. (Not logan's run, the other one).

I think you need a Frontier Psychiatrist (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U8BWBn26bX0)

I've had obsessive tendencies in the past and had many small things irrationally worry and stress me, but this is way out of the league where I have any capacity to usefully advise.

Have you tried not dwelling on the effects you feel? I'm probably not saying this in the way I intend... I mean that maybe coming to some sort of peace or acceptance of how you are effected but not letting your thoughts dwell on it.

Now, even if he hadn't use the nazi example, but some other more reasonable one, can somebody, anybody, please, for my life's sake, restore my faith in humanity by identifying the actual error in his reasoning was? Because the most critical one wasn't his comparison itself.


are you wondering what the name of the fallacy is or were you taken in by his logic and want to know why you werent really wrong to exclude him?

Have you tried not dwelling on the effects you feel? I'm probably not saying this in the way I intend... I mean that maybe coming to some sort of peace or acceptance of how you are effected but not letting your thoughts dwell on it.

The cognitive behavioral leaning people that I've worked with are very much of this opinion.

It hasn't worked, but you should also take joy in knowing that you told me for free what others charged a lot of money for.

The problem is, the "feelings" have become intensely painful, and increasingly persistent. The physical responses are acute enough that "not dwelling on them" has become impossible.

Your third point above, the fact that you think thats what I'm claiming, makes you a new trigger. You and what you've said here are now part of what's killing me, or at least making me want to die.
I think he's trying to shock your system back into gear. Sort of like how you could use a defibrillator to restore operation to someone's heart after an electrical shock had caused them to go into cardiac arrest.
Or like that time when I was drowning, and my mother fished me out of the pool. When she noticed I had water in my lungs and couldn't breathe, she chucked me back into the water and shouted, "Dear, he's still not done yet. Give it another five minutes before you call 911."

are you wondering what the name of the fallacy is or were you taken in by his logic and want to know why you werent really wrong to exclude him?

You don't have to use any particular name, a description of the error would be fine.

And I made no argument as to why the decision to exclude him was wrong or right.

I'll give a hint:

Me: I have made decision "A".

Him: You are immature to make decision "A" on the basis of event "B" that happened last night.

Me: Decision "A" was made a week ago.

Him: A decision being old doesn't make it right!


Seriously...nobody?

Your friend is simply saying, in translation - I'm feeling hurt and rejected and I don't care that it's not your fault, or that it's another reason, I'm hurt and you're the person in front of me'.

It doesn't mean anything more than that and it doesn't need to make sense.

..and, most importantly, it's really not your responsibility as much as you feel it is.

Sounds like you're a little far down the road for our thoughts on the matter and, in cases like these, drugs will only allay the issue not resolve it, that's not saying don't take what's prescribed, chemical imbalances can be helped by the right medication.

I can understand that, at 30+, you're tired of avoiding this stuff and/or running away from it.

You're not alone, I suppose that's the most important thing, everyone feels this to greatly varying degrees no matter the confident face put on, everyone, ultimately, sleeps alone with their thoughts at night.

Some of us never really learned to say 'no', and find ourselves in situations, feeling responsible, for things that we didn't have to take responsibility for.

Still, hard to block out feelings.

I think he's trying to shock your system back into gear. Sort of like how you could use a defibrillator to restore operation to someone's heart after an electrical shock had caused them to go into cardiac arrest.
Or like that time when I was drowning, and my mother fished me out of the pool. When she noticed I had water in my lungs and couldn't breathe, she chucked me back into the water and shouted, "Dear, he's still not done yet. Give it another five minutes before you call 911."

Its not working, but the principle you're describing is less absurd than some of what I've heard in life that was serious.

You don't have to use any particular name, a description of the error would be fine.

And I made no argument as to why the decision to exclude him was wrong or right.

I'll give a hint:

Me: I have made decision "A".

Him: You are immature to make decision "A" on the basis of event "B" that happened last night.

Me: Decision "A" was made a week ago.


Him: A decision being old doesn't make it right!


Seriously...nobody?
a correct decision is a correct decision no matter when it is made.

he is right that the timing is irrelevant. he is wrong that that somehow makes the decision wrong.

he switched the argument on you from "you decided to exclude me because of the nature of absolute zero" to "when you make a decision doesnt matter". that is an entirely different topic that has no relation to whether or not he should be excluded.

its obvious from your description that y'all were right to exclude him.

You don't have to use any particular name, a description of the error would be fine.

And I made no argument as to why the decision to exclude him was wrong or right.

I'll give a hint:

Me: I have made decision "A".

Him: You are immature to make decision "A" on the basis of event "B" that happened last night.

Me: Decision "A" was made a week ago.

Him: A decision being old doesn't make it right!


Seriously...nobody?
Non sequitur is not a fallacy; my fish is!

a correct decision is a correct decision no matter when it is made.

he is right that the timing is irrelevant. he is wrong that that somehow makes the decision wrong.

its obvious from your description that y'all were right to exclude him.

Ashmo, you've been an affable and thoughtful person since I started as Saint Curie in 2005.

If I said "Ashmo, you're a jerkette for getting a nation on nationstates just to come here and argue with me!"

and you pointed out "Um, I've had a nation here since 2004."

and I responded with "The fact that you have a high post count doesn't make you right!"

What's the important point that I'm missing about your rebuttal, and how it relates to my claim of you being a jerkette?

a correct decision is a correct decision no matter when it is made.

he is right that the timing is irrelevant. he is wrong that that somehow makes the decision wrong.

its obvious from your description that y'all were right to exclude him.

It's the attempt at logic, that is the problem.

1) Cheese is good.

2) That assertion is flawed, since you hate my sandwich.

1) Actually, cheese is good aside from that sandwich.

2) Ah. Just because you haven't tried the sandwich, doesn't make it bad.

1) What the fuck? *Head asplode*


Presenting it as logic doesn't make it a tail. Or something. Ask Lincoln.

Your friend is simply saying, in translation - I'm feeling hurt and rejected and I don't care that it's not your fault, or that it's another reason, I'm hurt and you're the person in front of me'.

It doesn't mean anything more than that and it doesn't need to make sense.

..and, most importantly, it's really not your responsibility as much as you feel it is.

Sounds like you're a little far down the road for our thoughts on the matter and, in cases like these, drugs will only allay the issue not resolve it, that's not saying don't take what's prescribed, chemical imbalances can be helped by the right medication.

I can understand that, at 30+, you're tired of avoiding this stuff and/or running away from it.

You're not alone, I suppose that's the most important thing, everyone feels this to greatly varying degrees no matter the confident face put on, everyone, ultimately, sleeps alone with their thoughts at night.

Some of us never really learned to say 'no', and find ourselves in situations, feeling responsible, for things that we didn't have to take responsibility for.

Still, hard to block out feelings.

Yeah. I think I'll learn too late that you might be right. My brain just won't believe it. The pain won't go away.

Going to look stupid on a death certificate...

Ashmo, you've been an affable and thoughtful person since I started as Saint Curie in 2005.

If I said "Ashmo, you're a jerkette for getting a nation on nationstates just to come here and argue with me!"

and you pointed out "Um, I've had a nation here since 2004."

and I responded with "The fact that you have a high post count doesn't make you right!"

What's the important point that I'm missing about your rebuttal, and how it relates to my claim of you being a jerkette?
look at my edit.

its bait and switch.

the husband does it to me all the time. im quite immune to the "change of topic to one i can win" ploy.

1) What the fuck? *Head asplode*


That. I'm at the point now where an asplosion would be welcome if it made the pain stop. I'm starting to just imagine the actual mass of my brain dynamically bursting from the top of my head and everything going black, because that's a world where the pain would stop.

More and more, that's the only thing making it quiet, even for a while.

look at my edit.

its bait and switch.

the husband does it to me all the time. im quite immune to the "change of topic to one i can win" ploy.

I envy your immunity.

You mentioned off-label prescription. Has that included Prozac yet?

Yes, I responded very badly to it. Fortunately, there are other drugs in that class, and other classes. So far, no drug or combination of drugs or combination of drugs and therapy have been effective, though.

I envy your immunity.
it keeps me from ever losing my cool here. the husband and inlaws pull every debating trick in the book. after 25 years i recognize every trap. no one on NSG can come close to the shit they try.

That. I'm at the point now where an asplosion would be welcome if it made the pain stop. I'm starting to just imagine the actual mass of my brain dynamically bursting from the top of my head and everything going black, because that's a world where the pain would stop.

More and more, that's the only thing making it quiet, even for a while.

There's a clue to a coping mechanism in there somewhere.

You're effectively isolating and treating the problem - in the image of manifesting it as a physical process. There is something there you can work with. The trick is to find a way to isolate and EXPEL, rather than isolate and CONTAIN. (I think there's a good argument for meditation as a treatment).

Yes, I responded very badly to it. Fortunately, there are other drugs in that class, and other classes. So far, no drug or combination of drugs or combination of drugs and therapy have been effective, though.

Just a curiousity. Prozac, and it's family, fascinate me - the off-label properties, using it to treat Tourette's, that kind of thing.

With the exception of the burning, this was tried by one my doctors. It didn't work, but take heart knowing I once paid a lot of money to get the advice you just gave for free.
Well, maybe you can take heart also that I didn't come up with it myself either, and yes, my health insurance did pay money for it as well. ;)
I have a team of both Psychiatrists and Psychologists, and at various times the psychologists have been from various school of thought on the subject. Lots of things have been tried over years.
Have you had the feeling that you've found one you can trust in like a friend or did you treat them more or less like business partners? I know it took me some time to find someone who not only was willing to help me, but also able to help me - and whom I could trust enough for the help to actually start working on my end.
Mid thirties.
Mmh. Early thirties here. Had you been a lot younger, that might have been a different thing.

It still sounds to me like you need to make a conscious decision to let go of the resentment, for the more you think about it, the more your thoughts center around it - which not only isn't helpful (as you might already know), but also forms a kind of vicious circle.

Our brains are strange when it comes to thought patterns, especially those which have been pursued for a longer period of time. (Again, "been there...") Took me more than a year of constant work to literally change the way I perceive things, put them in place "up there", and think about them in retrospect.

Think of it as paths that you chose to walk on. The more often you take a certain path across the meadow that is your brain, the easier you will be able to follow the same path which over time gets easier to follow, even though it might not lead you to the place you want to end up in. Over time, when you decide to walk a different way, the old paths will recede. (It's an over-simplified example, but I tend to like those for they get to the bottom of things in easy terms.)

I know it ain't easy, it takes a lot of work and even (inner)personal struggle - leaving the beaten path, the one you've got used to might lead you into some rougher patches - but over time, it'll be easier to follow the new route you've chosen for yourself. Constantly reminding yourself of your set goal is a huge helper.

I wish you all the best. Don't give up looking for your own path that works for you, and don't give up looking for a professional that you feel comfortable with and who can also give you some supporting chemistry.

There's a clue to a coping mechanism in there somewhere.

You're effectively isolating and treating the problem - in the image of manifesting it as a physical process. There is something there you can work with. The trick is to find a way to isolate and EXPEL, rather than isolate and CONTAIN. (I think there's a good argument for meditation as a treatment).

The idea of my head exploding only quiets it so long as I'm intensely imagining everything going black and all cognitive process permanently ending.

The problem is, I can't really make it permanent, and as soon as I stop imagining my brain exploding following by no awareness, the pain returns intensely.

Have you had the feeling that you've found one you can trust in like a friend or did you treat them more or less like business partners? I know it took me some time to find someone who not only was willing to help me, but also able to help me - and whom I could trust enough for the help to actually start working on my end.

I haven't felt that trust with all of them, but with some.


It still sounds to me like you need to make a conscious decision to let go of the resentment, for the more you think about it, the more your thoughts center around it - which not only isn't helpful (as you might already know), but also forms a kind of vicious circle.

Lot of the CBT folks worked with a model like that.


Our brains are strange when it comes to thought patterns, especially those which have been pursued for a longer period of time. (Again, "been there...") Took me more than a year of constant work to literally change the way I perceive things, put them in place "up there", and think about them in retrospect.

Think of it as paths that you chose to walk on. The more often you take a certain path across the meadow that is your brain, the easier you will be able to follow the same path which over time gets easier to follow, even though it might not lead you to the place you want to end up in. Over time, when you decide to walk a different way, the old paths will recede. (It's an over-simplified example, but I tend to like those for they get to the bottom of things in easy terms.)

This is very similar in some respects to some of the neuroplasticity ideas that have been tried, some stemming from the work of Schwartz and Begley. Over years, it didn't work, but it was interesting to learn about.


I know it ain't easy, it takes a lot of work and even (inner)personal struggle - leaving the beaten path, the one you've got used to might lead you into some rougher patches - but over time, it'll be easier to follow the new route you've chosen for yourself. Constantly reminding yourself of your set goal is a huge helper.

I wish you all the best. Don't give up looking for your own path that works for you, and don't give up looking for a professional that you feel comfortable with and who can also give you some supporting chemistry.

There isn't any really "giving up" to be had, anyway. There is nowhere to go where this won't follow me. The constant, massive pain is just getting old. I was wondering if it might kill me.

The idea of my head exploding only quiets it so long as I'm intensely imagining everything going black and all cognitive process permanently ending.

The problem is, I can't really make it permanent, and as soon as I stop imagining my brain exploding following by no awareness, the pain returns intensely.

Which again, sounds like it might be a strong candidate for meditative approaches. You're parcelling the problems, and creating a calming blanket. Whether that is calming some actual synaptic reaction cascade, or whether it is creating a feeling that is creating the illusion of the same scenario... might actually be irrelevent. If you can learn techniques to help create and maintain that blanket...

is the obsessive compulsive reaction rooted in a diagnosed or undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder - or is the behaviour autism-spectrum-similar, and rooted in a response to the OCD.

Haha, it sounds like you're analysing Data's (from ST) positronic net.

Your friend is simply saying, in translation - I'm feeling hurt and rejected and I don't care that it's not your fault, or that it's another reason, I'm hurt and you're the person in front of me'.

It doesn't mean anything more than that and it doesn't need to make sense.

..and, most importantly, it's really not your responsibility as much as you feel it is.

Sounds like you're a little far down the road for our thoughts on the matter and, in cases like these, drugs will only allay the issue not resolve it, that's not saying don't take what's prescribed, chemical imbalances can be helped by the right medication.

I can understand that, at 30+, you're tired of avoiding this stuff and/or running away from it.

You're not alone, I suppose that's the most important thing, everyone feels this to greatly varying degrees no matter the confident face put on, everyone, ultimately, sleeps alone with their thoughts at night.

Some of us never really learned to say 'no', and find ourselves in situations, feeling responsible, for things that we didn't have to take responsibility for.

Still, hard to block out feelings.
This is good.
There's a clue to a coping mechanism in there somewhere.

You're effectively isolating and treating the problem - in the image of manifesting it as a physical process. There is something there you can work with. The trick is to find a way to isolate and EXPEL, rather than isolate and CONTAIN. (I think there's a good argument for meditation as a treatment).
This is some sound advice. You need to find an angle from which to tackle the problem while in the meantime hanging in there and making it to the next round.

Oh, and one thing that helped me was going outside and taking walks in nature with family and friends. Getting good input to outbalance the bad stuff circling in your head. It sounds like you're so preoccupied with this that your regular functions - many of which are good for you - are inhibited by it. That needs to be overcome, too.

I sure wish there was more advice I could give to help you - but I believe I've told you what I could think of already. I'll keep me fingers crossed. Should I think of anything else, I'll let you know.

Now, even if he hadn't use the nazi example, but some other more reasonable one, can somebody, anybody, please, for my life's sake, restore my faith in humanity by identifying the actual error in his reasoning was? Because the most critical one wasn't his comparison itself.


Assuming this isn't satire (which it clearly is :p), the error in his reasoning is irrelevance. You never stated that the fact that decision was made a week ago made it a better decision in itself, you stated it because it rebukes and shows to be wrong the idea that you didn't invite him solely because of the argument the night before. Thus the flaw was that he wasn't addressing what you were arguing, he was addressing a strawman.

Which again, sounds like it might be a strong candidate for meditative approaches. You're parcelling the problems, and creating a calming blanket. Whether that is calming some actual synaptic reaction cascade, or whether it is creating a feeling that is creating the illusion of the same scenario... might actually be irrelevent. If you can learn techniques to help create and maintain that blanket...

I've tried a few different meditative styles. (The strangest one was Raelian "sensual" meditation, but I only tried that for a weekend, and it didn't really treat it as seriously. The others I tried to practice for quite a while.)

Heh, the bolded part is very "Data from Star Trek: The Next Generations".

The problem is, the quiet is only there so long as I am concentrating only and solely on the idea of an explosion followed by nothingness.

If I do anything else, go to school, go to the bathroom, get a glass of water for my wife, drive somewhere, go to work, let the dog out, anything at all, the pain comes back massively as soon as I even start anything other than imaging the "BANG-nothing".

I don't have the resources to just stay at home all day doing that, and eventually, somebody comes and talks to me or I have to eat, or pee, or whatever.

And when that happens, it comes back worse, even more jarring than before.

"Dad, let me help, I know how to fix it"
"No, son, I'm doing it"

So frustrating for a kid I imagine.

My guess is that this all stems from the father, I wonder with your own kid if you'll let him take on a task, a problem that requires solving, for you and complete it, for those who are good at problem-solving, you can shut a child out of the process.

It means we don't learn to say no to a request for a favour, or stepping up to a problem that requires solving, whether personal or technical, we always want to help because we were denied that reward as a child, it takes on significant importance as a focus in life.

To some, that urge to help, unrequited in childhood, becomes an issue because one can find oneself always helping, always internally thinking you're letting people down, and, because you help, people keep asking, overwhelming your abilities and continuing the spiral of letting down people and so the self-hating.

I hate to quote a film but 'it's not your fault', whether I'm way off base or not, the issue is how you feel about yourself and I doubt it's some single instance, it's ingrained.

Assuming this isn't satire (which it clearly is :p), the error in his reasoning is irrelevance. You never stated that the fact that decision was made a week ago made it a better decision in itself, you stated it because it rebukes and shows to be wrong the idea that you didn't invite him solely because of the argument the night before. Thus the flaw was that he wasn't addressing what you were arguing, he was addressing a strawman.

Not even partly because of the night before. When the choice was made, the "night before" hadn't even happened yet. You got it.

I guess you could say that the "night before" was emblematic of what may have been some of the reasoning of the many people who asked that he not be invited, but I don't know that.

I haven't felt that trust with all of them, but with some.
That's good.
Lot of the CBT folks worked with a model like that.
What's CBT?
This is very similar in some respects to some of the neuroplasticity ideas that have been tried, some stemming from the work of Schwartz and Begley. Over years, it didn't work, but it was interesting to learn about.
One of the things I found very interesting is that with most techniques, even before I tried them, as soon as they were introduced I either understood how they were supposed to work, or inquired how they worked. As you put it, interesting to learn about indeed. Not always helpful, but I was amazed at how some "simple" things worked well even though at first look they seemed somehow ridiculous.
There isn't any really "giving up" to be had, anyway. There is nowhere to go where this won't follow me. The constant, massive pain is just getting old. I was wondering if it might kill me.
I won't kill you, unless you decided to act upon it to end it. Which from your post doesn't sound likely. That's what I was alluding to.
Which again, sounds like it might be a strong candidate for meditative approaches. You're parcelling the problems, and creating a calming blanket. Whether that is calming some actual synaptic reaction cascade, or whether it is creating a feeling that is creating the illusion of the same scenario... might actually be irrelevent. If you can learn techniques to help create and maintain that blanket...
Or even strengthen it... This does sound like it may be helpful. Maybe simple, but often a simple solution or approach is all it takes.

I guess you could say that the "night before" was emblematic of what may have been some of the reasoning of the many people who asked that he not be invited, but I don't know that.

True, but that still doesn't stop his reasoning being flawed. So, is the issue resolved now?

What's CBT?

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.


I won't kill you, unless you decided to act upon it to end it.

This is either a typo, or the sweetest, kindest thing anyone on nationstates has ever said to me.

True, but that still doesn't stop his reasoning being flawed. So, is the issue resolved now?

Nope, because it wouldn't convince him. Many won't see what the problem is.

This is simply one event of hundreds that trigger it. There may be thousands now, that I can't forget or ignore. More happen every day.

It will never end.

Nope, because it wouldn't convince him.

So? I'm sure there are many times that you haven't convinced someone of something, does it always create the same reaction?

"Dad, let me help, I know how to fix it"
"No, son, I'm doing it"

So frustrating for a kid I imagine.

My old man was a decorated military doctor, so he was very "fix it". Separate from that, though, he tried his best.


My guess is that this all stems from the father, I wonder with your own kid if you'll let him take on a task, a problem that requires solving, for you and complete it, for those who are good at problem-solving, you can shut a child out of the process.

My own son will never know me. I've decided I don't want to take the risk of contaminating him with my condition. I'm separating from my family, to avoid polluting the boy with madness.


It means we don't learn to say no to a request for a favour, or stepping up to a problem that requires solving, whether personal or technical, we always want to help because we were denied that reward as a child, it takes on significant importance as a focus in life.

To some, that urge to help, unrequited in childhood, becomes an issue because one can find oneself always helping, always internally thinking you're letting people down, and, because you help, people keep asking, overwhelming your abilities and continuing the spiral of letting down people and so the self-hating.

I'm actually not that helpful in general, by intent or outcome. I don't often have to say no to a request for help. I actually wish I had an urge to be more helpful, but to be honest, such a motivation isn't there.

I think I understand the model you're describing. I might be a few degrees off of it.


I hate to quote a film but 'it's not your fault', whether I'm way off base or not, the issue is how you feel about yourself and I doubt it's some single instance, it's ingrained.

[Briefly returns to satire mode] No, man! Don't do this man! Don't fucking do this, man, not you! Not you, man![/QUOTE]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Oh! See? That's what I did. :tongue:
This is either a typo, or the sweetest, kindest thing anyone on nationstates has ever said to me.
It's no typo. :fluffle:

So? I'm sure there are many times that you haven't convinced someone of something, does it always create the same reaction?

Only if its...I'm hesistant to use the word, but it fits..."egregious".

The other day, I was doing a joke about Arnold Schwarzenneger launching a coup using extras and props from his films, and taking over the country.

Guy says to me (very seriously), "FYI, Schwarzenneger can't run for President, because he wasn't born in this country."

And I said, "Yes, I know. Its in Article II of the US Constitution, I was doing a joke"

And he says "Well, you should learn that the Constitution has Amendments, not articles, and #2 is about weapons".

And I said "Well, it has amendments, but also 7 articles, and its the 2nd of the latter that sets the rules for the President"

And he says "Well, don't act like you knew the rule about the President's birthplace before I told you"

And I said "I was already aware of that rule. How else would I know the exact clause source of the law that establishes it?"

And he says "I'm not impressed with people who can regurgitate rules out of books. Don't believe everything you read"

And now, every time I see Arnold Schwarzenneger on the television, I have to leave the room so my reaction doesn't scare my kid.

My old man was a decorated military doctor, so he was very "fix it". Separate from that, though, he tried his best.
I believe that a great deal of guys tick along those lines. Got a problem? Let's fix it. We tend to think problem and solution oriented and get our "reward" after solving a problem, while women tend to regard talking about it as a "reward" in itself.
It's toughie when we're confronted with a problem that either doesn't have an easy solution, or has no solution.
My own son will never know me. I've decided I don't want to take the risk of contaminating him with my condition. I'm separating from my family, to avoid polluting the boy with madness.
Honest to God, I hope you're joking there. What you need are anchoring points - robbing yourself of those is the very last thing you would want to do as it ain't helpful at all. I doubt that isolation is the way to go, even if you said that surrounding yourself with others disturbs the bang-blankness.

Honest to God, I hope you're joking there. What you need are anchoring points - robbing yourself of those is the very last thing you would want to do as it ain't helpful at all. I doubt that isolation is the way to go, even if you said that surrounding yourself with others disturbs the bang-blankness.

No, I'm not joking. The stakes are too high. If there is any non-zero chance that observing me will cause him to emulate this behavior in any way, it could be transmitted to him (especially if the CBT people are right, since the principles of cognitive behavior would be consistent with behavior influencing thought and vice versa).

An absent father is a bad factor statistically, but my condition means his father is already "absent". The only question now is, is it good for my son to have a screaming madman in his house?

Only if its...I'm hesistant to use the word, but it fits..."egregious".

The other day, I was doing a joke about Arnold Schwarzenneger launching a coup using extras and props from his films, and taking over the country.

Guy says to me (very seriously), "FYI, Schwarzenneger can't run for President, because he wasn't born in this country."

And I said, "Yes, I know. Its in Article II of the US Constitution, I was doing a joke"

And he says "Well, you should learn that the Constitution has Amendments, not articles, and #2 is about weapons".

And I said "Well, it has amendments, but also 7 articles, and its the 2nd of the latter that sets the rules for the President"

And he says "Well, don't act like you knew the rule about the President's birthplace before I told you"

And I said "I was already aware of that rule. How else would I know the exact clause source of the law that establishes it?"

And he says "I'm not impressed with people who can regurgitate rules out of books. Don't believe everything you read"

And now, every time I see Arnold Schwarzenneger on the television, I have to leave the room so my reaction doesn't scare my kid.

Right, again sticking with the assumption that this really, honestly isn't satire, what exactly is bothering you about it to such an extreme extent? The fact that even though he's an idiot, you weren't able to convince him that he's wrong? I would just think that he knows he's wrong, anyone who makes such a ridiculous statement is doing it out of desperateness because he knows his position is ludicrous.

Right, again sticking with the assumption that this really, honestly isn't satire, what exactly is bothering you about it to such an extreme extent? The fact that even though he's an idiot, you weren't able to convince him that he's wrong? I would just think that he knows he's wrong, anyone who makes such a ridiculous statement is doing it out of desperateness because he knows his position is ludicrous.

...because it's just so crap, that people can't have a reasonable conversation without being dicks about their ego.

It can be frustrating,

Only if its...I'm hesistant to use the word, but it fits..."egregious".

The other day, I was doing a joke about Arnold Schwarzenneger launching a coup using extras and props from his films, and taking over the country.

Guy says to me (very seriously), "FYI, Schwarzenneger can't run for President, because he wasn't born in this country."

And I said, "Yes, I know. Its in Article II of the US Constitution, I was doing a joke"

And he says "Well, you should learn that the Constitution has Amendments, not articles, and #2 is about weapons".

And I said "Well, it has amendments, but also 7 articles, and its the 2nd of the latter that sets the rules for the President"

And he says "Well, don't act like you knew the rule about the President's birthplace before I told you"

And I said "I was already aware of that rule. How else would I know the exact clause source of the law that establishes it?"

And he says "I'm not impressed with people who can regurgitate rules out of books. Don't believe everything you read"
I venture it's pure envy on the guy's side.

Are you easily unsettled? I know I'm feeling insecure rather quickly whenever such a situation comes up and I'm the one who's position/knowledge/intellect is being questioned.
And now, every time I see Arnold Schwarzenneger on the television, I have to leave the room so my reaction doesn't scare my kid.
Instead of leaving the room, you should embrace Arni, and imagine him blowing the shit out of the guy. That might give you an edge and a good chuckle.

Make a new path on the meadow!

...because it's just so crap, that people can't have a reasonable conversation without being dicks about their ego.

It can be frustrating,

Quite.

Right, again sticking with the assumption that this really, honestly isn't satire, what exactly is bothering you about it to such an extreme extent?

This is the part that made a couple doctors throw in the towel. They can't understand why this has the extreme effect on me. I don't know why it does either.


The fact that even though he's an idiot, you weren't able to convince him that he's wrong?

Yes, that's a big part of it.


I would just think that he knows he's wrong, anyone who makes such a ridiculous statement is doing it out of desperateness because he knows his position is ludicrous.

That's what our mutual friends (well, people that used to hang out with us both but don't see him anymore) claim about him. Some have said its his defining characteristic. I'm unwilling to assume that.

And its not just him. It happens in the world all the time.

No, I'm not joking.Then you might want to disregard Arni being on your side.
The stakes are too high. If there is any non-zero chance that observing me will cause him to emulate this behavior in any way, it could be transmitted to him (especially if the CBT people are right, since the principles of cognitive behavior would be consistent with behavior influencing thought and vice versa).

An absent father is a bad factor statistically, but my condition means his father is already "absent". The only question now is, is it good for my son to have a screaming madman in his house?
It does sound like you might want to reconsider taking stabilizing medication.

Anyway, I believe that having a father who's having problems is way better than having no father at all. Of course, it depends on whether your son understands that your struggling and aren't at your best right now.

By the way, have you talked this plainly with your therapists before? Or have you been holding back out of fear of embarrassing yourself or something?

I venture it's pure envy on the guy's side.

Are you easily unsettled? I know I'm feeling insecure rather quickly whenever such a situation comes up and I'm the one who's position/knowledge/intellect is being questioned.

It doesn't come up a lot. My professors, classmates, and students seem to think I know my shit (even when I really don't, sadly). I've even told them to always double check whatever I say (except for my professors, who generally know when I'm off).


Instead of leaving the room, you should embrace Arni, and imagine him blowing the shit out of the guy. That might give you an edge and a good chuckle.

Make a new path on the meadow!

Its funny, but the "imagine blowing the shit out of the guy" thing has been recommended by several of my friends (less so by doctors).

It doesn't work. Imagining it makes me feel worse, like I can't come up with a real response, so I have to resort to imaginary blasting.

Interestingly enough, I'm told that some STD's can cause some kind of dementia, but they've done blood work of all kinds, and I'm clean.

Besides, the places where I do my whoring require monthly checkups and the girls are issued health cards.

Where are these clean whores?

There is a universal law: "People are stupid".

It's been upgraded to People are Idiots.

Look, I think the best thing for you to do, is confront your friend and just let out all of your frustration on him. Just tear him down like tissue paper.

You obviously stored your frustration inside of you, and that's why it's hurting you physically, emotionally and mentally.

It does sound like you might want to reconsider taking stabilizing medication.

I continue to try different kinds, mostly combinations now. It can take many months to even get early data on response to a particular type or cocktail.


Anyway, I believe that having a father who's having problems is way better than having no father at all. Of course, it depends on whether your son understands that your struggling and aren't at your best right now.

He's a baby, he doesn't understand anything that complex yet, but he gets a worried look when he sees me crying or screaming. I generally can get out of the room before it gets really loud.


By the way, have you talked this plainly with your therapists before? Or have you been holding back out of fear of embarrassing yourself or something?

Oh, yes, they know all about it. Most of them have heard about it to the point where they don't want to hear about any of the specifics anymore, telling me "that's content, don't worry about that".

This topic is officially not funny. :(
(As official as my word, anyway.)
:eek:

This is the part that made a couple doctors throw in the towel. They can't understand why this has the extreme effect on me. I don't know why it does either.
Have you tried accepting this as a part of yourself and how you are - or do you consider it a huge problem? (Seeing how it effects you, I wonder what's doing the greater harm: The fact that you think that way, or the fact that you consider thinking that way a problem which in itself upsets you even further)
Yes, that's a big part of it.
You should know that it's neither your obligation nor within your power to convince each and everyone when they're wrong, that they're wrong. People are way too ignorant to be helped.

Hell, I consider it a gift if I can convince one out of ten ever once in a while. From personal experience, I can share with you that setting one's own personal goals too high (e.g. "I need to convince everyone") tend to lead to a lot of disappointment. Instead, aiming for a more realistic setting (e.g. "It suffices for me to know that I'm right") might make you feel a whole lot better about those conflicts.

This is the part that made a couple doctors throw in the towel. They can't understand why this has the extreme effect on me. I don't know why it does either.



Yes, that's a big part of it.



That's what our mutual friends (well, people that used to hang out with us both but don't see him anymore) claim about him. Some have said its his defining characteristic. I'm unwilling to assume that.

And its not just him. It happens in the world all the time.

Well all I can say is this - nothing means shit, nothing matters. Whenever I get annoyed about things like this, I just think that it doesn't really matter in the slightest, nobody is going to care, it will be forgotten about soon, and there are no invisible people watching all these events that live forever who judge your status on things like this, so whatever happens wont be immortalised. So it's completely trivial, you're just another ordinary person that hasn't caused any damage or harm to anything that people are going to care about in the future. I know it may sound kind of bleak to some, but it comforts me.

Where are these clean whores?

Counties in Nevada with under 400,000 people have licensed brothels in certain areas. The health monitoring is standardized at the State level, though, even though only some counties have the brothels.

Slightly less clean but still with health monitoring is Zona Norte in Tijuana. Not as clean as Nevada, but the girls are tested, pap and blood. Way cheaper than Nevada.


It's been upgraded to People are Idiots.

Look, I think the best thing for you to do, is confront your friend and just let out all of your frustration on him. Just tear him down like tissue paper.

I hope you're kidding. Let frustration out on people, and they'll let their's out back. It escalates. People aren't tissue paper, and when two people "confront" like that, the argument doesn't generally get more reasonable as a result.


You obviously stored your frustration inside of you, and that's why it's hurting you physically, emotionally and mentally.

You have a lot of experience with interacting well with difficult people? Is this something you're pretty good at?

Your basic problem here is that you continue to hang around with people who are no good for you and are not "friends" at all. You need to lose their phone numbers, and if they have yours then you need to change phones and not tell them. Seriously: it's like when an alcoholic first gets sober or an addict first quits the drugs, it is not safe, not safe at all, to see the old drinking/drugging buddies for any purpose at any time.

I continue to try different kinds, mostly combinations now. It can take many months to even get early data on response to a particular type or cocktail.
All too true.
He's a baby, he doesn't understand anything that complex yet, but he gets a worried look when he sees me crying or screaming. I generally can get out of the room before it gets really loud.
Aw man, you really need a man-hug! :fluffle:
Oh, yes, they know all about it. Most of them have heard about it to the point where they don't want to hear about any of the specifics anymore, telling me "that's content, don't worry about that".
Yet somehow it seems that it hasn't sunken in with them that your problem lies within the very specifics themselves, and the way you approach and live through such a daily conflict.

I'm sorry I have to go now, it's almost 5 in the morning. I hope my input was of a little help to you, if nothing else, I'll be back tomorrow.

And remember - you're not alone, even though it might seem like it sometimes.

Sounds to me like you take yourselves a little too seriously, lol...

Me and a couple of my buddies had an argument for EIGHT HOURS strait over whether Facts were actually Just Opinions...

Because, one of them had said that something was an undeniable Fact, and the other said that well facts are based on opinions....

We were like, well, sure some supposed truths are based on opinions, but there are undeniable facts out there...Unfortunately we were driving and used a Street sign as an example...Saying that "No matter what your opinion is, that sign is Green"....My god, how many different interpretations and shit, "What if he's blind?", well we could still measure the lightwaves and tell you its green, "Green's just a name, what if you called it blue?"..."The light measurement would still be the same as the traditionally accepted color Green"....On and on and on...


Needlessly to say, we eventually argued him down...but none of us were really pissed about it, although to this day when there's an argument, one of us will inevitable bust out with, "well facts are just opinions anyway" lol...

This topic is officially not funny. :(
(As official as my word, anyway.)
:eek:
It's funny because a man is in pain! I bet you're the sort of person who doesn't crack a smile once during Lilya 4-evahs (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0300140/).

Me and a couple of my buddies had an argument for EIGHT HOURS strait over whether Facts were actually Just Opinions...


I actually burst out laughing when I read this, partly because it's just so funny in itself, partly because it reminds me of so much stuff to do with some of my friends.

And remember - you're not alone, even though it might seem like it sometimes.

Cool, thanks for contributing a lot to the thread. See you around.

I hope you're kidding. Let frustration out on people, and they'll let their's out back. It escalates. People aren't tissue paper, and when two people "confront" like that, the argument doesn't generally get more reasonable as a result.



You have a lot of experience with interacting well with difficult people? Is this something you're pretty good at?

Yea, I experience alot of idiots in my daily life. You can do two things, A. you can get your frustration out, and be done with it and later on take your friend to the bar for a beer. Or B. keep it bottled up until you either kill your family, your co-workers, your classmates, or random people on the street, or stroke out and die.

Your choice.

Or C. just stop dealing with those people

True, some other idiots will come along, soon enough, but by eliminating known idiots from your mental diet, you can keep your idiocy-exposure down to a tolerable level.

Or C. just stop dealing with those people

True, some other idiots will come along, soon enough, but by eliminating known idiots from your mental diet, you can keep your idiocy-exposure down to a tolerable level.

I dunno, he shows that he cannot simply let this go, he does need to confront this issues and the idiot in question in order to get back on track. So C. may not be an option, right now.

he does need to confront this issues and the idiot in question in order to get back on track.
NO NO NO. He needs to NOT confront this issue, NOT confront this idiot.

NO NO NO. He needs to NOT confront this issue, NOT confront this idiot.

Well if you can think of a better way for him to let it go, I'd like to see it.

Well if you can think of a better way for him to let it go, I'd like to see it.

Post a Thread about it on NSG?

Yea, I experience alot of idiots in my daily life. You can do two things, A. you can get your frustration out, and be done with it and later on take your friend to the bar for a beer.

Getting it "out" doesn't make it done if it keeps happening. And alcohol doesn't always help, and has been known to actually make things worse.


Or B. keep it bottled up until you either kill your family, your co-workers, your classmates, or random people on the street, or stroke out and die.

Your choice.

If you think those are the choices, then you can pick from them for your life.
I think that there might be more.

Have you found that your philosophy has worked out well in your ability to work with people?

Friends, parents, co-workers, supervisors, colleagues in your field of study, things like that? This mentality has led you to consistent success in interacting with people?

I dunno, he shows that he cannot simply let this go, he does need to confront this issues and the idiot in question in order to get back on track. So C. may not be an option, right now.

What makes you think I haven't "confronted" this idiot, or the others this happens with?

I've presented structured, reasoned arguments, and I've tried not to become a bitter, cynical asshole to them. Their responses are of the nature I've described.

Thus, the "confrontation" continues to make things worse.

I've presented structured, reasoned arguments, and I've tried not to become a bitter, cynical asshole to them. Their responses are of the nature I've described.


Haha, nobody cares about structured reasoned arguments.

you're going to die, that's what you get for satirizing ayn rand's ghost.

Out of curiposity, have you asked your psychiatrists about non-medicinal ways of treating it?

It may just be a function of mid-30's when the brain has to adapt to seriously considering the future, one's past the point of 'what do I want to be', and for some there's a building frustration that things are not as they should be.

You can live without purpose in life and get away with it through your twenties, you can deny it in your early 30's but I suspect by mid-30's you cannot escape the reality of having to seriously consider your next 20 years.

Normally, a family, and especially a child, tend to solve the issue of purpose but this doesn't seem to be the case with you. I wonder if you're mentally clinging to a certain freedom and the required switch is the pressure point, projected into irritation with external actors.

Some people had too much fun in their 20's to really want to cope with having to live day in day out. The people who were so much fun have moved on, the ability to up and move on disappears and options close down. Certain people, those we'd call carefree in their 20's find themselves losing the people they were carefree around, are caught between not moving on or otherwise just resigning yourself to the nature of things. That can be highly stressful.

An opinion is just that, one can only guess given limited knowledge.

Maybe simple, but often a simple solution or approach is all it takes.

It's basically the methodology that worked for me - partitioning and then 'excising'.

Out of curiposity, have you asked your psychiatrists about non-medicinal ways of treating it?

Other than the several ways that were mentioned in the OP and at various places in the thread?

CBT, meditative, etc...

you're going to die, that's what you get for satirizing ayn rand's ghost.

Okay, if this were actually some kind of time-warped punishment for satirizing Ayn Rand's ghost...

...that actually would be hilarious enough that I'd give my life for that joke, as long as enough people knew that was why I died.

It may just be a function of mid-30's when the brain has to adapt to seriously considering the future, one's past the point of 'what do I want to be', and for some there's a building frustration that things are not as they should be.

You can live without purpose in life and get away with it through your twenties, you can deny it in your early 30's but I suspect by mid-30's you cannot escape the reality of having to seriously consider your next 20 years.

Normally, a family, and especially a child, tend to solve the issue of purpose but this doesn't seem to be the case with you. I wonder if you're mentally clinging to a certain freedom and the required switch is the pressure point, projected into irritation with external actors.

Some people had too much fun in their 20's to really want to cope with having to live day in day out. The people who were so much fun have moved on, the ability to up and move on disappears and options close down. Certain people, those we'd call carefree in their 20's find themselves losing the people they were carefree around, are caught between not moving on or otherwise just resigning yourself to the nature of things. That can be highly stressful.

An opinion is just that, one can only guess given limited knowledge.

Its not impossible, and isn't any less plausible than other models I've heard.

So, the other day, buddy of mine and I had a disagreement. We were watching a re-run of Futurama, and the issue came up of whether premise of minus 173 Celsius violates absolute zero. I claimed it does not, and told him he was thinking of Kelvin. He told me to go read the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics "because you can't go below absolute zero on any scale". I told him I agreed with that, but that absolute zero in Celsius occurs at something like -273.15 C. It went downhill from there and got ugly.

So, anyway, the next day, somebody let it slip to him that we were going to go play Vampire The Masquerade (we use old 2ed stuff), and he asked to come along. I told him that it had been decided not to invite him.

He became naturally upset, and said I was very immature to use our argument the night before as a reason to blackball him from the game. I explained to him that the decision to not invite him had been made a week before (all of the people in the game that have met him had asked the previous week that he not be invited).

He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."

Suddenly, something in my head snapped. I honestly felt it go. It hurts. It still hurts. Its like a headache, but its also building up some kind of painful bile in my stomach and I can't stop throwing up.

Its been a few days, and I can't get it out of my head. I have little flecks of blood in my hair from clutching my skull. I can't sleep. And this isn't the first time. This has been happening more and more, over the last five years, when people say things like that.

I've seen doctors of various kinds, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-convulseants (lot of "off label" treatment of this kind of thing, I'm told). I've tried blending it with counseling, cognitive therapy, etc.

I can't hold my son, because when these thought hit me, sometimes I twitch. I'm afraid I'll drop him.

These thoughts won't go away. I'm starting to wonder if they can actually kill me.

Can a thought kill you?


Can a thought kill you? Nope but it does sound like you are having mental health issues perhaps brought on by rage?

So, the other day, buddy of mine and I had a disagreement. We were watching a re-run of Futurama, and the issue came up of whether premise of minus 173 Celsius violates absolute zero. I claimed it does not, and told him he was thinking of Kelvin. He told me to go read the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics "because you can't go below absolute zero on any scale". I told him I agreed with that, but that absolute zero in Celsius occurs at something like -273.15 C. It went downhill from there and got ugly.

So, anyway, the next day, somebody let it slip to him that we were going to go play Vampire The Masquerade (we use old 2ed stuff), and he asked to come along. I told him that it had been decided not to invite him.

He became naturally upset, and said I was very immature to use our argument the night before as a reason to blackball him from the game. I explained to him that the decision to not invite him had been made a week before (all of the people in the game that have met him had asked the previous week that he not be invited).

He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."

Suddenly, something in my head snapped. I honestly felt it go. It hurts. It still hurts. Its like a headache, but its also building up some kind of painful bile in my stomach and I can't stop throwing up.

Its been a few days, and I can't get it out of my head. I have little flecks of blood in my hair from clutching my skull. I can't sleep. And this isn't the first time. This has been happening more and more, over the last five years, when people say things like that.

I've seen doctors of various kinds, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-convulseants (lot of "off label" treatment of this kind of thing, I'm told). I've tried blending it with counseling, cognitive therapy, etc.

I can't hold my son, because when these thought hit me, sometimes I twitch. I'm afraid I'll drop him.

These thoughts won't go away. I'm starting to wonder if they can actually kill me.

Can a thought kill you?

Are you talking telekinesis?

yes, easily. Especially if you repeat that thought. thoughts are what makes human minds tick so it's a no brainer if they can kill you or not.

Well if you can think of a better way for him to let it go, I'd like to see it.I quote the Nike slogan here: JUST DO IT. Contact with these people is not good for his mental state? Then just don't have any more contact with those people. If their phone numbers are stored in his cell, delete them; if he has their e-mail addresses, delete those; if those people have his phone number or e-mail, change phones or e-mail; if they drop by, don't answer the door; they'll get the idea.

Do you live in Airstrip One?

...He said, "The fact that a decision is old doesn't make it right. The decision to gas the jews was made over half a century ago. I guess you think that makes it right."...Can a thought kill you?


Best explination(if it has not already been posted):
Lewis Black's act dubbed over a scene from Death Note (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lak-5I6jdhQ)

Your basic problem here is that you continue to hang around with people who are no good for you and are not "friends" at all. You need to lose their phone numbers, and if they have yours then you need to change phones and not tell them.

This!

Idiots make my head hurt, too. Not nearly on the same scale, but I have actually gotten headaches from the worst of them.

The solution? Avoid idiots/idiocy to the greatest extent possible. Don't worry about being called a "recluse." The stigma against reclusiveness is just more idiocy.

You may say that by being online, on a debate forum, I'm exposing myself to idiocy and not being reclusive. But, there are differences. 1) The idiots aren't directly in my face - the Almighty X Button is always available for emergency use. 2) Here on NSG, idiots are likely to have been refuted before I've even seen the thread. Therefore, I don't have to get MY blood pressure up trying to get through to them. Instead, I get to see idiots get mocked, their ridiculousness proven wrong, and their logical fallacies pointed out, complete with links to pages about those fallacies.