NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so, I guess everything is sort of "in nature" in a way, but I mean the comparatively wild nature. And I admit that I'd be taking clothes, tools, some supplies, maybe a sleeping roll, so its not exactly without modern comforts.


What I'm thinking is, before school really gets going, heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.

I'll admit to the cliche. The idea is that, removed from our modern society of artificial noise and illusory values (I don't know what that means), that I can "commune with nature", and possibly kill and eat a squirrel or something.

I don't expect any kind of deep vision quest, the clouds part and the moon opens like an eye and teaches me to talk the language of the spirits. That would be cool, of course, but I'm not expecting it.

I'm just wondering if immersing one's self in a more "natural" environment gets you a different perspective. Also, how does one cook squirrel?

Nature's overrated. Those little seed pods with the burrs that stick to your pantlegs are annoying as hell. Stick to your computer.

I was practically forced to do it as part of my sixth grade curriculum it was 3 days in the middle of winter, the average temp was 15 F. I hated it...

taken a shit in a field? yeah I've done that.

Going camping alone is a bad idea if you've never been camping.

No, but I've communed with Yoda.

Squirrels are best slow-baked in clay, much like hedgehogs, try and stuff some parsley in there as well and don't forget to de-fur, nothing more irritating than slow-baking squirrel only to have fur stuck in your teeth.

Don't listen to Smunkee, after a couple of days your natural instincts kick in and you'll be fine, you'll know which plants are safe just by looking at them.

Don't listen to Smunkee, after a couple of days your natural instincts kick in and you'll be fine, you'll know which plants are safe just by looking at them.

Is this like the time the pilot passed out when we were on that Grand Canyon helicoptor tour, and you told me "Grab the stick, its just like driving a car but less to crash into up here"?

Squirrels are best slow-baked in clay, much like hedgehogs, try and stuff some parsley in there as well and don't forget to de-fur, nothing more irritating than slow-baking squirrel only to have fur stuck in your teeth.

Don't listen to Smunkee, after a couple of days your natural instincts kick in and you'll be fine, you'll know which plants are safe just by looking at them.

It is a bad idea to go camping alone! At least bring a first aid kit, some basic supplies (water, etc.), and some field/survival guides.

And its always a good idea to have a partner in case on of you gets hurt.

Going camping alone is a bad idea if you've never been camping.

I've been camping, but usually not far from the vehicles, and only eating things I brought.

I've been camping, but usually not far from the vehicles, and only eating things I brought.

Have you been camping alone though? Camping near cars with other people and camping alone...they're different.

Or you know, go get dehydrated and lost and eat poisonous berries and die in the woods and get eaten by the wildlife.....I'm sure it's fun. Don't forget to leave your cell phone at home....no service out there anyway.

I've been camping, but usually not far from the vehicles, and only eating things I brought.
camp near other people and youll be fine.

where are you thinking of going this time of year? do you have winter camping gear?

Camping's great, though, yeah, don't go into the back country alone, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Car camping by yourself in a campground is ok though.

As for squirrel, roasted on sticks over an open fire.

Just salt and pepper it and it'll come out great.*

*Note that I've never done it, but that was the recipe as told to me by my Step-father.

Is this like the time the pilot passed out when we were on that Grand Canyon helicoptor tour, and you told me "Grab the stick, its just like driving a car but less to crash into up here"?

Yes, albeit with slightly less crashing, I forgot to figure in the ground on that one admittedly.

It is a bad idea to go camping alone! At least bring a first aid kit, some basic supplies (water, etc.), and some field/survival guides.

And its always a good idea to have a partner in case on of you gets hurt.

That's just propaganda.

Okay, so, I guess everything is sort of "in nature" in a way, but I mean the comparatively wild nature. And I admit that I'd be taking clothes, tools, some supplies, maybe a sleeping roll, so its not exactly without modern comforts.


What I'm thinking is, before school really gets going, heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.

I'll admit to the cliche. The idea is that, removed from our modern society of artificial noise and illusory values (I don't know what that means), that I can "commune with nature", and possibly kill and eat a squirrel or something.

I don't expect any kind of deep vision quest, the clouds part and the moon opens like an eye and teaches me to talk the language of the spirits. That would be cool, of course, but I'm not expecting it.

I'm just wondering if immersing one's self in a more "natural" environment gets you a different perspective. Also, how does one cook squirrel?
I've done something nearly similar to that. You know what I learned? That human beings invented houses and chairs and beds and hot showers and room service for a reason.

Yes, being out in nature is very nice. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes, being free of the constant noise and interruptions of the urban world is very, very nice. Yes, it's great to be in a place that doesn't have that so-ubiquitous-you-don't-even-notice-it-anymore stench of car exhaust and hot plastic parts on electrical appliances. Quiet is good. Clean is good. Even fresh-caught fish and boiled milkweed pods are good.

Here's what's not so good:

> Waking up after having slept too close to the outdoors all night long. No matter what the season, even at midsummer, the nights in the country are COLD and DAMP. You will wake up every single morning uncomfortable.

> Keeping a fire going. It's actually not as easy as you might think, and it takes a shitload of effort and attention. And trust me, once you get a fire going, you will want to keep it going, because there is no guarantee you'll ever get another one going. Our ancient ancestors spent so much of their time tending the damned fire, they eventually made a whole movie about it. Also, although wood smoke smells better than car exhaust, it stings your eyes a lot worse. And don't think that if you go commune with nature in the summer time, you won't need a fire. Remember the cold, damp nights, and keep in mind that you might want to boil water before drinking it.

> Mosquitos and black flies. They are demons. Out there in the woods, where they have to fight for every meal, they are vicious, juiced up micro-bastards who will never give you a moment's peace, no matter what you do. And I'm not even very sensitive to their bites.

> Also ticks. Disease-spreading little fuckers.

> Bathing in ice cold water is not fun. Trust me on this. Swimming in a cold pool or the cold ocean is fun, but bathing in freezing stream water is not. I can't explain it, I just know it. Not bathing for a week is not much fun, either, especially because your skin oils will help attract mosquitos and black flies, not bathing lets ticks hide out on you, and not bathing lets sand and soil accumulate in various nooks and crannies of your body, causing itching, irritation and occasionally rashes.

> Rain + tent = where's my ride back to town, dammit?

Hope this helps. Enjoy your camping trip. And stay away from the squirrels. They'll kick your ass and give you rabies or fleas. :D

I just noticed Muravyts is here so we are likely to get some informed advice soon.

and what are you going to let your wife do to make up for going away and leaving her alone with the baby?

Going camping alone is a bad idea if you've never been camping.
Going camping alone is generally a bad idea. I mean, I've done it, but I do lots of stupid things.
The experience, while somewhat interesting, wasn't very enlightening. I went home early (was only out for three days rather than five) because I got some kind of rash on my leg.
It is far easier and safer just to stay home and fast for a week.

How are you going to catch the squirrel? You can't expect to catch it with a knife and your barehands, and even if you could, you shouldn't. Squirrels are covered with parasites, disease infested, and some of them carry rabies.

Camping's great, though, yeah, don't go into the back country alone, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Car camping by yourself in a campground is ok though.

As for squirrel, roasted on sticks over an open fire.

Just salt and pepper it and it'll come out great.*

*Note that I've never done it, but that was the recipe as told to me by my Step-father.
you forgot

gut it and skin it first.

Have you been camping alone though? Camping near cars with other people and camping alone...they're different.

Or you know, go get dehydrated and lost and eat poisonous berries and die in the woods and get eaten by the wildlife.....I'm sure it's fun. Don't forget to leave your cell phone at home....no service out there anyway.

I'm thinking that the very risk of that is part of the experience I want. To be in a situation where I might be judged as much of nature is judged, by natural selection.

I've never been camping alone, and it would surely be safer to have a partner, but the solitude is also part of the experience I want. Its definitely a risk, but I don't consider "Well, he went into nature alone and it ate him" to be any more an ignomious an end than what I'll likely have otherwise.

Your cautionary advice is sound, don't get me wrong. But its kind of the danger that I want.

When I'm trying to eat my own foot, I'll probably wish I'd listened to you.

Going camping alone is a bad idea if you've never been camping.
It's a bad idea even if you have been camping. That hiker who got pinned by a falling rock and had to saw his own arm off with a dull, rusty pocket knife was not a newbie in the wilderness. Just an ass who never learned about the buddy system.

and what are you going to let your wife do to make up for going away and leaving her alone with the baby?

I'm already not much help with the baby. I feed it sometimes, I wash the bottles. But mostly she handles the boy, and her mom does daycare for us during the day.

How are you going to catch the squirrel? You can't expect to catch it with a knife and your barehands, and even if you could, you shouldn't. Squirrels are covered with parasites, disease infested, and some of them carry rabies.

.17 HMR.

Seriously, is the meat from them generally not consumable?

I'm already not much help with the baby. I feed it sometimes, I wash the bottles. But mostly she handles the boy, and her mom does daycare for us during the day.
you need to change that. she needs more of a break than you (or she) realize.

where are you thinking of going? i dont remember where you live.

.17 HMR.

Seriously, is the meat from them generally not consumable?

It generally is.

you forgot

gut it and skin it first.
I thought that went without saying.

I just noticed Muravyts is here so we are likely to get some informed advice soon.
Well, of course :D but what made you think I would know about camping?

.17 HMR.

Seriously, is the meat from them generally not consumable?
people eat squirrel.

but they arent very big eh?

I thought that went without saying.
what if baldwin is a city boy? he might not know anything about cooking stuff you have killed yourself.

I had a nice two weeks backpacking through uninhabited forest, but I had people who were trained in backpacking with me... it was a lot of work, and there were a lot of unpleasant things about it, but it did give me an incredibly new perspective on nature as well as a feeling about what pre-agricultural society might have been like. And amazing beauty I will try to remember for as long as I live.

boiled milkweed pods are good.

Those sound good, even though I have no idea what they are.


Here's what's not so good:

> Waking up after having slept too close to the outdoors all night long. No matter what the season, even at midsummer, the nights in the country are COLD and DAMP. You will wake up every single morning uncomfortable.

> Keeping a fire going. It's actually not as easy as you might think, and it takes a shitload of effort and attention. And trust me, once you get a fire going, you will want to keep it going, because there is no guarantee you'll ever get another one going. Our ancient ancestors spent so much of their time tending the damned fire, they eventually made a whole movie about it. Also, although wood smoke smells better than car exhaust, it stings your eyes a lot worse. And don't think that if you go commune with nature in the summer time, you won't need a fire. Remember the cold, damp nights, and keep in mind that you might want to boil water before drinking it.

> Mosquitos and black flies. They are demons. Out there in the woods, where they have to fight for every meal, they are vicious, juiced up micro-bastards who will never give you a moment's peace, no matter what you do. And I'm not even very sensitive to their bites.

> Also ticks. Disease-spreading little fuckers.

> Bathing in ice cold water is not fun. Trust me on this. Swimming in a cold pool or the cold ocean is fun, but bathing in freezing stream water is not. I can't explain it, I just know it. Not bathing for a week is not much fun, either, especially because your skin oils will help attract mosquitos and black flies, not bathing lets ticks hide out on you, and not bathing lets sand and soil accumulate in various nooks and crannies of your body, causing itching, irritation and occasionally rashes.

> Rain + tent = where's my ride back to town, dammit?

Hope this helps. Enjoy your camping trip. And stay away from the squirrels. They'll kick your ass and give you rabies or fleas. :D


If I bring some lighter fluid and some kind of lighting device, I should be able to keep the fire going and renew it if I need to, yeah? I thought my biggest problem with that would be gathering enough wood. I also want to make sure that I make a safe fire, that won't spread, but I've seen that done with a firepit.

The mosquitoes and ticks don't sound fun, and its good to know about. I think it should be survivable. Unless a tick gives me a disease that I don't survive, but its no dumber a death then I've got coming otherwise.

I plan on going for five days. The rash thing sounds bad, and one of the other posters mentioned something similar. The time of year I plan to go, I probably won't be able to bathe. Just have to cope with that, I guess.

Okay, so if not squirrels, what small game is good to eat? Wabbit?

It's a bad idea even if you have been camping. That hiker who got pinned by a falling rock and had to saw his own arm off with a dull, rusty pocket knife was not a newbie in the wilderness. Just an ass who never learned about the buddy system.
Well, yeah, but my advice isn't "informed" you know.
I'm already not much help with the baby. I feed it sometimes, I wash the bottles. But mostly she handles the boy, and her mom does daycare for us during the day.
Um......you need to help out with your kid more. Just sayin'.
.17 HMR.

Seriously, is the meat from them generally not consumable?

Not after you shoot it, squirrels are small......and gamey and not much meat to them and really almost too infested to eat.

you need to change that. she needs more of a break than you (or she) realize.

where are you thinking of going? i dont remember where you live.

Southwest US, but I can travel. I'd say anywhere from Kansas to California is close enough.

Well, of course :D but what made you think I would know about camping?

Because you have been places and done things, you are a bookworm who enjoys a good read and researching things you don't know just to get general information about them and you are a professional artist and as a trained but not so professional artist I know that artists also study people and concepts to better create art based on the person/concept. And no offense, but I peg you as middle aged so you have a certain amount more experience with things than I, a 24 year old kid who is too broke to get out and do anything does. Add to on to that that you are a thinker... I figure you could give informed opinions/advice on a very wide variety of subjects.

Well, yeah, but my advice isn't "informed" you know.

Um......you need to help out with your kid more. Just sayin'.

It doesn't seem to like me. The spouse prefers to handle it, and her mom helps quite a bit. I think I'll actually be helping more by being out for a while.


Not after you shoot it, squirrels are small......and gamey and not much meat to them and really almost too infested to eat.

Hmm...when I decide on a local, I'll have to figure out what small game to use instead.

Some of the information I've looked at indicate there something called a Chukar, but I thought that was a kind of orc.

what if baldwin is a city boy? he might not know anything about cooking stuff you have killed yourself.

I don't. I killed a boar and ate it once, but my Dad dressed it and cooked it.

I think the only thing I've ever gutted and eaten myself was a squid.

If I bring some lighter fluid and some kind of lighting device, I should be able to keep the fire going and renew it if I need to, yeah? I thought my biggest problem with that would be gathering enough wood. I also want to make sure that I make a safe fire, that won't spread, but I've seen that done with a firepit.

Dig two holes, about 4-8 inches deep a foot 6 inches to a foot apart and dig a tunnel in between them. It always kept a fire going longer for me with less wood.


Okay, so if not squirrels, what small game is good to eat? Wabbit?

Squirrels are fine, so are rabbits, chipmunks, and other little critters. Like I said, being a field guide and a survival book.

If I bring some lighter fluid and some kind of lighting device, I should be able to keep the fire going and renew it if I need to, yeah?
If you're packing, just remember you need to carry that with you. And honestly, I wouldn't carry lighter fluid. You'd be better off with a backpacker's stove and solid fuel.

I thought my biggest problem with that would be gathering enough wood. I also want to make sure that I make a safe fire, that won't spread, but I've seen that done with a firepit.
Just remember to leave it cold, wet, and dead.

I plan on going for five days. The rash thing sounds bad, and one of the other posters mentioned something similar. The time of year I plan to go, I probably won't be able to bathe. Just have to cope with that, I guess.
Wet wipes, just for the parts that get really grungy.

[QUOTE]Okay, so if not squirrels, what small game is good to eat? Wabbit?
The chances of you being able to catch something in the winter are small to none, you'd better bring your own supplies.

heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.
Plenty of times. Best feeling there is for me.

Do you also mean "coitus with nature"?

Those sound good, even though I have no idea what they are.




If I bring some lighter fluid and some kind of lighting device, I should be able to keep the fire going and renew it if I need to, yeah? I thought my biggest problem with that would be gathering enough wood. I also want to make sure that I make a safe fire, that won't spread, but I've seen that done with a firepit.

The mosquitoes and ticks don't sound fun, and its good to know about. I think it should be survivable. Unless a tick gives me a disease that I don't survive, but its no dumber a death then I've got coming otherwise.

I plan on going for five days. The rash thing sounds bad, and one of the other posters mentioned something similar. The time of year I plan to go, I probably won't be able to bathe. Just have to cope with that, I guess.

Okay, so if not squirrels, what small game is good to eat? Wabbit?
animals have legal hunting seasons. killing a squirrel, a bird, a rabbit out of season can get you a fine. maybe some jail time (i wouldnt know)

you need to bring your own food, and no lighter fluid.

it will be very cold at night no matter where you go. you have to be prepared with the proper equipment. if you go to the mountains it can snow no matter where you go. bring a GPS thingy. get good maps and make sure you know how to read them. you will need to bring your own water. you cant trust that you will be able to find water or that it will be safe to drink.

its january. it will be dark from 5pm to 7 am. you need a reliable light for inside the tent and some good reading material.

Well, yeah, but my advice isn't "informed" you know.


I didn't say that :(

.17 HMR.
That doesn't seem very "communal"...
Seriously, is the meat from them generally not consumable?
It is edible; my grandfather loved it and once fed me some (which I didn't like). There just isn't very much meat on a squirrel, and you've got to get past the fact that you're eating a rodent. Like a rat, only with a fluffier tail and it lives in a tree. Most squirrels are probably cleaner than rats (assuming you're not in a suburb where the squirrels can eat out of the trash on a regular basis), but still ... rodent.
It is better just to bring some granola or protein bars.

It doesn't seem to like me. The spouse prefers to handle it, and her mom helps quite a bit. I think I'll actually be helping more by being out for a while.
I think you might live in some alternate dimension or something.

Some of the information I've looked at indicate there something called a Chukar, but I thought that was a kind of orc.
Kind of bird, fairly yummy, if a bit gamy.

I like to climb tall trees to commune with nature (especially this one (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2066/2405936635_3b8a1c3267_o.jpg) (that rope ladder was not there when I was around and is frankly for punk ass wusses)).

I used to go backpacking in the Sierra Nevadas with my parents when I was a kid. Pretty basic--little stove to cook endless ramen/potato buds, water pump, sleeping rolls, tent and packs. I really loved it for about a week until the altitude sickness pwned me.

animals have legal hunting seasons. killing a squirrel, a bird, a rabbit out of season can get you a fine. maybe some jail time (i wouldnt know)

I checked. Some areas have "unprotected species" that can be hunted year 'round without license. Part of the reason I'm sticking to small game.


you need to bring your own food, and no lighter fluid.

If solid starting fuel of some kind is better, I can live with that. But I want to kill something out there and eat it. Or vice versa. I'll bring enough supplies that I won't starve otherwise, but just barely.


it will be very cold at night no matter where you go. you have to be prepared with the proper equipment. if you go to the mountains it can snow no matter where you go. bring a GPS thingy. get good maps and make sure you know how to read them. you will need to bring your own water. you cant trust that you will be able to find water or that it will be safe to drink.

In some of the areas that I look, the water is tracked fairly well, and if I plan the spot right, there should be water. Probably have to be boiled, but I think I should be able to find it.


its january. it will be dark from 5pm to 7 am. you need a reliable light for inside the tent and some good reading material.

That's definitely a down side. But I figure sitting by the fire, smoke a bit...maybe the experience in the dark will be just as striking.

I like to climb tall trees to commune with nature (especially this one (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2066/2405936635_3b8a1c3267_o.jpg) (that rope ladder was not there when I was around and is frankly for punk ass wusses)).

I used to go backpacking in the Sierra Nevadas with my parents when I was a kid. Pretty basic--little stove to cook endless ramen/potato buds, water pump, sleeping rolls, tent and packs. I really loved it for about a week until the altitude sickness pwned me.
Wuss. :tongue:

I don't know where you're based, but if you're interested, this is the trail my family and I used to hike:

Onion Valley through Kearsarge Pass (http://www.climber.org/DrivingDirections/OnionValley.html)

There are some awesome photos here. (http://www.naturalbornhikers.com/KearsargePass/KearsargePass.htm)

You will, however, need to know how to work a filtered water pump and how to deal with bears.

That doesn't seem very "communal"...

Yeah. I actually would prefer if I had the mad skillz to just go out in a leather thong with a bone-knife, but I just don't. But I don't consider the rifle to be any more of compromise than the fire starting fuel, hand-axe, etc.


It is edible; my grandfather loved it and once fed me some (which I didn't like). There just isn't very much meat on a squirrel, and you've got to get past the fact that you're eating a rodent. Like a rat, only with a fluffier tail and it lives in a tree. Most squirrels are probably cleaner than rats (assuming you're not in a suburb where the squirrels can eat out of the trash on a regular basis), but still ... rodent.
It is better just to bring some granola or protein bars.

The rodent thing I can cope with. Its the low meat yield that makes it harder.

If solid starting fuel of some kind is better, I can live with that. But I want to kill something out there and eat it. Or vice versa. I'll bring enough supplies that I won't starve otherwise, but just barely.
Bring more than that. Remember, you don't just need to not starve to death, you're gonna have to work.


In some of the areas that I look, the water is tracked fairly well, and if I plan the spot right, there should be water. Probably have to be boiled, but I think I should be able to find it.
Bring a water filter or some iodine tablets. Some of the bugs that live in the water won't be killed off by just boiling and what you can get from them can kill you, painfully.

i love camping. i love being away from the trappings of civilization.

you dont need to be deep into the wilderness. you just have to be off the grid and prepared for the conditions you are going to be likely to encounter.

how are you planning to kill this small game?

Wuss. :tongue:

I was 10, weighed about 80 pounds, and schlepped a pack up to like 4,000 feet! I think I earned the right to puke.

Yeah. I actually would prefer if I had the mad skillz to just go out in a leather thong with a bone-knife, but I just don't. But I don't consider the rifle to be any more of compromise than the fire starting fuel, hand-axe, etc.

Just don't put a scope on it and its not a compromise :p

Yeah. I actually would prefer if I had the mad skillz to just go out in a leather thong with a bone-knife, but I just don't. But I don't consider the rifle to be any more of compromise than the fire starting fuel, hand-axe, etc.



The rodent thing I can cope with. Its the low meat yield that makes it harder.
you need protein bars in any case. they are emergency food.

You will, however, need to know how to work a filtered water pump and how to deal with bears.

This reminds me of some footage I saw on Youtube once of a park worker releasing a bear that they had in a big metal cylinder for some reason, but he fell of it when he let the bear out, bear goes out him, and he has to empty a revolver into its mouth to get it off of him.

Hm, bears. If the area I choose winds up having such a risk, I guess I'll have to get something waaaay more potent than my .17 HMR.

Because if I shoot a bear with that caliber, its going to be pissed if it ever finds out about it.

Just don't put a scope on it and its not a compromise :p
you dont kill squirrels with a rifle. they are too small arent they?

Bring more than that. Remember, you don't just need to not starve to death, you're gonna have to work.


Bring a water filter or some iodine tablets. Some of the bugs that live in the water won't be killed off by just boiling and what you can get from them can kill you, painfully.

Water filter or iodine tablets. Cool.

I was 10, weighed about 80 pounds, and schlepped a pack up to like 4,000 feet! I think I earned the right to puke.
Wait... you puked at 4,000?! :eek:

You flat landers and your inability to cope with hills. :wink:

Those sound good, even though I have no idea what they are.
They're these pods from outer space that, if you let them grow long enough will eventually pop out a communist copy of you that will kill you and take over your identity and life.

Actually, they are the seed pods of the milkweed plant. Google it. You can boil the pods. They taste okay.

If I bring some lighter fluid and some kind of lighting device, I should be able to keep the fire going and renew it if I need to, yeah?
No. Using fuel like that will only increase your likelihood of (a) burning yourself, which would be very, very, very bad out there in the woods and/or (b) starting a forest fire, which would also be not good.

And by "some kind of lighting device" do you mean matches, perhaps? Look, seriously, why don't you just tell your wife you're going camping and then drive over to Atlantic City and stay at a casino? They provide plenty of matches, and if squirrel is on the menu, it will come with a burgundy sauce.

Oh, serious tip: Bring wooden matches, carry them in a tin -- like an Altoids box -- and coat them all in wax beforehand, so they'll have a little waterproofness.

I thought my biggest problem with that would be gathering enough wood.
Yes, that will be a problem. Another, even bigger problem will be finding DRY wood that will actually burn. I've been on trips in woods so wet -- even though it did not rain while I was there -- that we couldn't get a good fire going for days.

I also want to make sure that I make a safe fire, that won't spread, but I've seen that done with a firepit.
No. What you want is a stone circle in an very wide area cleared of all brush and leaf litter, not too close to any trees and not too close to your tent.

However, remember that this is the 21st century. There are very, very, very few places that are not controlled by someone. If you are camping, then the forest is likely controlled by the government if it is a state or national park. Parks place very strict limits on how you can build a fire and where you can build a fire and what you can burn in the fire -- all in order to (1) prevent forest fires, (2) prevent toxic pollution (no throwing plastic in the fire), and (3) minimize damage to the landscape from fire pits. Many parks forbid the digging of pits. Many impose fines for violating their rules, and may even eject a camper from the park if they catch them violating the rules badly enough.

The mosquitoes and ticks don't sound fun, and its good to know about. I think it should be survivable. Unless a tick gives me a disease that I don't survive, but its no dumber a death then I've got coming otherwise.
My brother got bitten by a tick while camping on a weekend trip. A few weeks later, he developed flu-like symptoms which he ignored because he thought it was just a cold. Several weeks after that, his heart stopped suddenly and he was dead for several minutes before being resuscitated at an emergency room. He had to spend two weeks in a cardiac ICU until his heart had stabilized. Turned out the tick gave him Lyme disease which, because he didn't recognize the symptoms, spread through his chest causing inflamation that eventually constricted his heart's movement until it stopped.

I plan on going for five days. The rash thing sounds bad, and one of the other posters mentioned something similar. The time of year I plan to go, I probably won't be able to bathe. Just have to cope with that, I guess.
Well, you'll certainly learn something about man's relationship to nature that way.

Okay, so if not squirrels, what small game is good to eat? Wabbit?
If you are not an experienced hunter, then no small game will be good to eat because you won't catch any.

Also, this is the 21st century. Hunting is regulated. You will need a license and you may only legally hunt certain animals at certain times. Guns, bows, and traps are all regulated. You could get into trouble if you are caught hunting in an unauthorized manner. Even if you don't catch anything.

Rabbit will not be better than squirrel, nutrition-wise. Both animals provide so little meat, with so little fat, that it's really a waste of time trying to catch them, especially if you're not good at it.

You'd be much better off to find out if fishing is possible and allowed where you're going and try your hand at that. But remember there are licensed seasons for that in many places, too.

Also, unless you really, seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY know what you are doing with wild plants, DO NOT -- I REPEAT, DO NOT!! -- attempt to pick your own wild plant edibles. Huge numbers of plants that look just like edible berries and leaves are, in fact, brutally, lethally poisonous.

Bring more than that. Remember, you don't just need to not starve to death, you're gonna have to work.

I don't want to take all the risk out of this, though. The idea that I could fail to get ahold of enough calories to keep myself going is some of what I want to subject myself to.

you dont kill squirrels with a rifle. they are too small arent they?

A .22 rimshot rifle or smaller works great. I don't hunt, but I live in the woods and almost everyone here does.

Because you have been places and done things, you are a bookworm who enjoys a good read and researching things you don't know just to get general information about them and you are a professional artist and as a trained but not so professional artist I know that artists also study people and concepts to better create art based on the person/concept. And no offense, but I peg you as middle aged so you have a certain amount more experience with things than I, a 24 year old kid who is too broke to get out and do anything does. Add to on to that that you are a thinker... I figure you could give informed opinions/advice on a very wide variety of subjects.
Damn.

Now I feel pressure.

Shit.

Wait... you puked at 4,000?! :eek:

You flat landers and your inability to cope with hills. :wink:

...ugh, I totally read the map wrong. I've spent my whole life at sea level, I didn't notice it was off! The pass isn't at 4,000 ft, it's at 11,760.

That said, I got sick more from the sudden change than the altitude itself. We ascended at least 1,500 ft in a day.

I don't want to take all the risk out of this, though. The idea that I could fail to get ahold of enough calories to keep myself going is some of what I want to subject myself to.
Look, there's risk and then there is being stupid. Not taking enough as a backup, and by enough I mean enough that you can walk out of there under your own power, is being very, very stupid.

If you want the risk it, take the food and don't touch it unless you can't get a hold of something, but do take it. Only an idiot goes off into the back country without food. Not even explorers went off without the food and they had a lot more experience at hunting and survival.

snip

Matches, little metal box, wax for fireproofing. Cool.


If you are not an experienced hunter, then no small game will be good to eat because you won't catch any.

Also, this is the 21st century. Hunting is regulated. You will need a license and you may only legally hunt certain animals at certain times. Guns, bows, and traps are all regulated. You could get into trouble if you are caught hunting in an unauthorized manner. Even if you don't catch anything.

I actually checked this before hand. For the areas I've looked at (so far), there are a set of animals, mostly small game and "non-indiginous species" that can be hunted without a license, year round.

I'm not an "experienced hunter", but I've hunted. I've taken moving game at 70 yards, and on still targets, I can hit a dime consistently at 100 yards with the right rifle. But its always been somebody else that dressed it and cooked it.


Rabbit will not be better than squirrel, nutrition-wise. Both animals provide so little meat, with so little fat, that it's really a waste of time trying to catch them, especially if you're not good at it.

You'd be much better off to find out if fishing is possible and allowed where you're going and try your hand at that. But remember there are licensed seasons for that in many places, too.

Also, unless you really, seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY know what you are doing with wild plants, DO NOT -- I REPEAT, DO NOT!! -- attempt to pick your own wild plant edibles. Huge numbers of plants that look just like edible berries and leaves are, in fact, brutally, lethally poisonous.

Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing much with the local flora. Other than burning it.

A .22 rimshot rifle or smaller works great. I don't hunt, but I live in the woods and almost everyone here does.
hunting, firewood, plant gathering, and almost everything else is highly regulated in national parks, state parks, national forests, state forests and most other places that you can go camping in.

if you are going to hunt you have to be well away from camping areas, houses, farm animal. you dont want to shoot the guy sleeping on the other side of the tree that the squirrel is in eh?

...ugh, I totally read the map wrong. I've spent my whole life at sea level, I didn't notice it was off! The pass isn't at 4,000 ft, it's at 11,760.
Oh, well, that's different then. I mean, 4,000's around, what, Auburn's level?

That said, I got sick more from the sudden change than the altitude itself. We ascended at least 1,500 ft in a day.
Ok, I'll stop teasing. I was born in Reno and spent the first 25 years of my life playing in the High Sierra, and teasing my cousins who lived in the Bay Area for being short of breath when they came up was a favorite pastime of mine. :D

Look, there's risk and then there is being stupid. Not taking enough as a backup, and by enough I mean enough that you can walk out of there under your own power, is being very, very stupid.

If you want the risk it, take the food and don't touch it unless you can't get a hold of something, but do take it. Only an idiot goes off into the back country without food. Not even explorers went off without the food and they had a lot more experience at hunting and survival.

What you're describing is not "risking it", by definition. If the food is there if I need it, then by definition, there's no risk.

You can call it stupid, but saying "If you want to risk it, take the food and don't touch it unless you can't get hold of something" doesn't really make sense. That's actually not risking it, a priori.

This reminds me of some footage I saw on Youtube once of a park worker releasing a bear that they had in a big metal cylinder for some reason, but he fell of it when he let the bear out, bear goes out him, and he has to empty a revolver into its mouth to get it off of him.

Hm, bears. If the area I choose winds up having such a risk, I guess I'll have to get something waaaay more potent than my .17 HMR.

Because if I shoot a bear with that caliber, its going to be pissed if it ever finds out about it.

You don't shoot the bears! I meant "deal with" as in learn how to protect your pack from them, especially if the locker is full. You want to bring a good length of rope and fix your pack at least 15 feet up a tree, preferably out a bit on a slender branch most bears will be too heavy to reach. Never, ever, ever keep food in your tent. They shouldn't come near you if the food's not near your tent, but if they do, they generally scatter at loud noise and flashlights.

Okay, so, I guess everything is sort of "in nature" in a way, but I mean the comparatively wild nature. And I admit that I'd be taking clothes, tools, some supplies, maybe a sleeping roll, so its not exactly without modern comforts.


What I'm thinking is, before school really gets going, heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.

I'll admit to the cliche. The idea is that, removed from our modern society of artificial noise and illusory values (I don't know what that means), that I can "commune with nature", and possibly kill and eat a squirrel or something.

I don't expect any kind of deep vision quest, the clouds part and the moon opens like an eye and teaches me to talk the language of the spirits. That would be cool, of course, but I'm not expecting it.

I'm just wondering if immersing one's self in a more "natural" environment gets you a different perspective. Also, how does one cook squirrel?

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Matches, little metal box, wax for fireproofing. Cool.
Bring flint, steel, and tinder as well. Make sure to keep the last well wrapped up in a waterproof case. It would be best to learn how to make a fire before you go though.

hunting, firewood, plant gathering, and almost everything else is highly regulated in national parks, state parks, national forests, state forests and most other places that you can go camping in.

if you are going to hunt you have to be well away from camping areas, houses, farm animal. you dont want to shoot the guy sleeping on the other side of the tree that the squirrel is in eh?

I try to assume that someone with as much intelligence as Hamharaub... I mean Baldwin would know these things, and the way I post is the way I talk; I don't always think things through to go into massive amounts of detail; gets me in trouble a lot here but I still haven't learned.

Ok, I'll stop teasing. I was born in Reno and spent the first 25 years of my life playing in the High Sierra, and teasing my cousins who lived in the Bay Area for being short of breath when they came up was a favorite pastime of mine. :D

Punk ass punk. *grumbles* We actually had to stop going because my mom got so sick she would develop fluid in her lungs. I just puked.

hunting, firewood, plant gathering, and almost everything else is highly regulated in national parks, state parks, national forests, state forests and most other places that you can go camping in.

if you are going to hunt you have to be well away from camping areas, houses, farm animal. you dont want to shoot the guy sleeping on the other side of the tree that the squirrel is in eh?

This is why choosing the local is so important. If I have to go somewhere other than a national park, I can live with that.

So far, I am finding a few places where I can hunt certain small game year round without a license (although strangely, if I want to sell the fur, I need a license for that, it seems).

youre not really going to DO this, right? you are just enjoying thinking about it, right?

you are NOT planning to leave your wife home alone with the baby for a week spending all day and all night worrying that you have been eaten by a bear.

RIGHT?

Because you have been places and done things, you are a bookworm who enjoys a good read and researching things you don't know just to get general information about them and you are a professional artist and as a trained but not so professional artist I know that artists also study people and concepts to better create art based on the person/concept. And no offense, but I peg you as middle aged so you have a certain amount more experience with things than I, a 24 year old kid who is too broke to get out and do anything does. Add to on to that that you are a thinker... I figure you could give informed opinions/advice on a very wide variety of subjects.*meekly raises hand*
Middle aged?

I try to assume that someone with as much intelligence as Hamharaub... I mean Baldwin would know these things, and the way I post is the way I talk; I don't always think things through to go into massive amounts of detail; gets me in trouble a lot here but I still haven't learned.

Yes, I've actually had formal hunter's education, and in those areas where I've hunted, I've been careful to check the regs before I go.

The fuck is a Hamharaub?

What you're describing is not "risking it", by definition. If the food is there if I need it, then by definition, there's no risk.

You can call it stupid, but saying "If you want to risk it, take the food and don't touch it unless you can't get hold of something" doesn't really make sense. That's actually not risking it, a priori.
You can risk it in other ways, harder hikes, more challenges, setting yourself a time. But it is way, way too easy to starve to death. It is also way to easy to bring just enough food to keep you alive, but not let you move till you run out of it and you starve to death. All you manage to do is prolong your agony.

Look at it this way, yes, not having the food is a wonderful motivation to catch something, but if you don't have the food, you won't be able to catch anything due to lack of energy.

How about you just bring food that you really hate? Then you'll feel motivation to get a rabbit.

I don't want to take all the risk out of this, though. The idea that I could fail to get ahold of enough calories to keep myself going is some of what I want to subject myself to.

Okay, but when you get delirious and lost and end up dying like 100 yards from civilization Christopher McCandless-style, don't blame us.

Wait, Baldwin, WHEN are you planning to do this? In winter? Not in winter, right? Because that would be just dumbass. I refer you to this:

Look, there's risk and then there is being stupid. Not taking enough as a backup, and by enough I mean enough that you can walk out of there under your own power, is being very, very stupid.

If you want the risk it, take the food and don't touch it unless you can't get a hold of something, but do take it. Only an idiot goes off into the back country without food. Not even explorers went off without the food and they had a lot more experience at hunting and survival.
This.^^ This.^^ Also, THIS.^^

It turns out that I really can't emphasize THAT^^ enough.

And if you're going to do this in the winter, you're going to need to worry about a lot more than just getting calories -- which, I assure you, you are not going to get, because you're going to need way more calories than normal so your body can compensate for the cold.

With a plan like yours, five days in winter will actually end up being one or maybe two days of hypothermia.

hunting, firewood, plant gathering, and almost everything else is highly regulated in national parks, state parks, national forests, state forests and most other places that you can go camping in.

if you are going to hunt you have to be well away from camping areas, houses, farm animal. you dont want to shoot the guy sleeping on the other side of the tree that the squirrel is in eh?
The guy would give more meat than the squirrel, at least.

youre not really going to DO this, right? you are just enjoying thinking about it, right?

you are NOT planning to leave your wife home alone with the baby for a week spending all day and all night worrying that you have been eaten by a bear.

RIGHT?

No my escapist fantasies are the French Foreign Legion and suicide. This, I'm actually going to go do. Seriously.

Damn.

Now I feel pressure.

Shit.

I'd happily help you relieve some of it. :fluffle:

But seriously; I don't intend pressure, that's just my observation. If I wanted opinions on seemingly obscure things I'd ask someone like you is basically all I meant.

And if you're going to do this in the winter, you're going to need to worry about a lot more than just getting calories -- which, I assure you, you are not going to get, because you're going to need way more calories than normal so your body can compensate for the cold.

No shit. Backpacking in the middle of the summer it gets DAMN cold at night at elevation, and your body is working so hard with less oxygen, you always drop weight. In the winter? Fuck. that. shit.

*meekly raises hand*
Middle aged?

Nothing wrong with it.. anyone from 35 on to 60 is middle aged these days.

*meekly raises hand*
Middle aged?
*glares* Are you sure you want to ask that question?

You can risk it in other ways, harder hikes, more challenges, setting yourself a time.

Again, what you're describing above isn't risk. They're goals, sure, but not real, serious risk.


But it is way, way too easy to starve to death. It is also way to easy to bring just enough food to keep you alive, but not let you move till you run out of it and you starve to death. All you manage to do is prolong your agony.

Look at it this way, yes, not having the food is a wonderful motivation to catch something, but if you don't have the food, you won't be able to catch anything due to lack of energy.

That's the risk, and I want that to be a possibility.


How about you just bring food that you really hate? Then you'll feel motivation to get a rabbit.

The motivation of "preference" is very far from "risk". With respect, your suggestions seem to indicate your aren't understanding the goal here.

You talk about "risking it" in ways that prevent any real risk.

Yes, I've actually had formal hunter's education, and in those areas where I've hunted, I've been careful to check the regs before I go.

The fuck is a Hamharaub?

I haven't quite been convinced that you are not.

Also: Don't jump into lakes that have ice/snow around the edges or ice floating in them.

This may sound really obvious, but even fairly smart people make that mistake, especially when they are evilly mislead.

Okay, but when you get delirious and lost and end up dying like 100 yards from civilization Christopher McCandless-style, don't blame us.

I'm not going to die 100 yards from civilization. I'm going to die 100 yards from my vehicle.

Yes, I've actually had formal hunter's education, and in those areas where I've hunted, I've been careful to check the regs before I go.

The fuck is a Hamharaub?Funny thing, that ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html
Dates are important, of course.

Again, what you're describing above isn't risk. They're goals, sure, but not real, serious risk.

That's the risk, and I want that to be a possibility.

The motivation of "preference" is very far from "risk". With respect, your suggestions seem to indicate your aren't understanding the goal here.

You talking about "risking it" in ways that prevent any real risk.

You really better not have anyone who depends on you for anything. Seriously. If you do that, you better pay off all debts, because if anyone in this world relies on you, you're pretty much telling them to go to hell.

Dude, I thought you got over the idea of "roughing it" after bicycle night in Meckalodow, Chad. My pubic hair just finally grew back and that girl's rabbit still trembles in the corner according to the last email.

Do we have to do this every ten years?

In the winter? Fuck. that. shit.
It CAN be fun. It really CAN be, IF you know what you're doing, have the gear, and the crew to go along with you. It CAN be fun.

What is being described here however is starting to sound like wilderness suicide.

And if you're going to do this in the winter, you're going to need to worry about a lot more than just getting calories -- which, I assure you, you are not going to get, because you're going to need way more calories than normal so your body can compensate for the cold.

With a plan like yours, five days in winter will actually end up being one or maybe two days of hypothermia.

I can wait for Spring, but I really prefer not to. Growing up in Denver, I did some winter camping up by Gramby and Grand Lake, and the temperature seemed generally survivable. Of course, I had others with me to split the labor with, but the point of this is the possibility that it won't be survivable.

Well, B, old bean, it was nice knowing you. Too bad you died on a camping trip, though. I'm sure that, when they finally find what's left of you after the spring thaw, your wife and her new husband* will give you a decent burial.

(*Who perhaps can figure out how to challenge himself by learning to change diapers and actually play with the baby instead of running away from it on some kind of Junior Robinson Crusoe Brigade one-man jamboree.)

I can wait for Spring, but I really prefer not to. Growing up in Denver, I did some winter camping up by Gramby and Grand Lake, and the temperature seemed generally survivable. Of course, I had others with me to split the labor with, but the point of this is the possibility that it won't be survivable.

Wait until the wife finds out...

It CAN be fun. It really CAN be, IF you know what you're doing, have the gear, and the crew to go along with you. It CAN be fun.

What is being described here however is starting to sound like wilderness suicide.

I'm sure it can be to SOMEONE, but I am not that person. I like my adventure at two alarms, thanks. Plus I hate being cold. I'm from California, I freeze when it's 50 out. I'm not that impressed by snow, anyway. I like it when it's spring/summer but there's still some snow on the ground so you can have snowball fights in sweltering temperatures. It makes people feel less like killing each other.

Well, B, old bean, it was nice knowing you. Too bad you died on a camping trip, though. I'm sure that, when they finally find what's left of you after the spring thaw, your wife and her new husband* will give you a decent burial.

(*Jocabia)

Fixed for accuracy.

I'm not going to die 100 yards from civilization. I'm going to die 100 yards from my vehicle.
Hahahaha, well at least you've factored that in. It shows you're not being entirely unrealistic. :D

You really better not have anyone who depends on you for anything. Seriously. If you do that, you better pay off all debts, because if anyone in this world relies on you, you're pretty much telling them to go to hell.

Nope, no debts. Nobody relies on me.

Well, B, old bean, it was nice knowing you. Too bad you died on a camping trip, though. I'm sure that, when they finally find what's left of you after the spring thaw, your wife and her new husband* will give you a decent burial.

(*Who perhaps can figure out how to challenge himself by learning to change diapers and actually play with the baby instead of running away from it on some kind of Junior Robinson Crusoe Brigade one-man jamboree.)

Wait, wait, wait. He has a baby?

Dude. Not cool. You do not get to potentially die when you are in charge of tiny people.

Nope, no debts. Nobody relies on me.
youre depressed, arent you?

Well, B, old bean, it was nice knowing you. Too bad you died on a camping trip, though. I'm sure that, when they finally find what's left of you after the spring thaw, your wife and her new husband* will give you a decent burial.

(*Who perhaps can figure out how to challenge himself by learning to change diapers and actually play with the baby instead of running away from it on some kind of Junior Robinson Crusoe Brigade one-man jamboree.)

I do change diapers, quite a bit. Its not really as challenging or risky as all that. As for playing with the baby, I think doing that in such a way as to evoke risk of physical harm would be bad.

Seriously, if this does kill me, it won't be any worse a death than what I otherwise was due for, heart trouble from bad diet, car accident.

youre depressed, arent you?

I'm not depressed, I just don't buy things on credit.

I do change diapers, quite a bit. Its not really as challenging or risky as all that. As for playing with the baby, I think doing that in such a way as to evoke risk of physical harm would be bad.

Seriously, if this does kill me, it won't be any worse a death than what I otherwise was due for, heart trouble from bad diet, car accident.

Angry pimp.

Dude, I thought you got over the idea of "roughing it" after bicycle night in Meckalodow, Chad. My pubic hair just finally grew back and that girl's rabbit still trembles in the corner according to the last email.

Do we have to do this every ten years?

Well, if you'd let us keep the pictures, I'd remember a little better.

I'm not depressed, I just don't buy things on credit.
then whats with the "no one relies on me" bullshit?

Fixed for accuracy.
Good on ya. :)

I'm sure it can be to SOMEONE, but I am not that person. I like my adventure at two alarms, thanks. Plus I hate being cold. I'm from California, I freeze when it's 50 out. I'm not that impressed by snow, anyway. I like it when it's spring/summer but there's still some snow on the ground so you can have snowball fights in sweltering temperatures. It makes people feel less like killing each other.
I love winter. I love being in the woods and the mountains in deep snow. I especially love looking at it -- the way the sunlight prisms through the ice, the way the nights turn into luminous lavender fairylands -- from the window of a cozy warm chalet or lodge with a giant roaring fire and a full bar, 4 star kitchen, big fluffy down comforters on the beds, and room service

Nope, no debts. Nobody relies on me.
Not even the wife who you saddled with a baby?

Well, if you'd let us keep the pictures, I'd remember a little better.

Trading the camera was the only way I could get back the donkey. How were we supposed to get home?

Angry pimp.

See, and that seriously bothers me, because those "Men of Leisure" should be a hell of a lot more jovial.

I guess during a bad economy, everyone's collection methods become more aggressive.

Take the baby with you, it will come in handy if you can't catch a squirrel.

Don't listen to these naysayers, we lived 10's of thousands of years in caves, it's in our genetics to understand and bond with nature.

...and all these stories about being trapped under a rock and cutting yourself free with a penknife, that's like saying don't swim in the sea or a shark will eat you.

All part of propaganda by governments looking to keep us in housing and paying taxes, it's like the Matrix, take the blue pill, or the red pill whatever, and head on out there.

Precautions are for losers, and no one named Baldwin was ever a loser.

Wait, wait, wait. He has a baby?

Dude. Not cool. You do not get to potentially die when you are in charge of tiny people.
This to the nth power.

I do change diapers, quite a bit. Its not really as challenging or risky as all that. As for playing with the baby, I think doing that in such a way as to evoke risk of physical harm would be bad.

Seriously, if this does kill me, it won't be any worse a death than what I otherwise was due for, heart trouble from bad diet, car accident.
Or self-pity. :p

You know, if you go out in the woods and eat worms all day, I hear they're very nutritious.

then whats with the "no one relies on me" bullshit?

Its not bullshit, they don't rely on me. They don't need to. My wife is an executive, her money position is fairly well, won't suffer from my absence, and my son is taken care of, and will be no more or less so with me gone.

See, and that seriously bothers me, because those "Men of Leisure" should be a hell of a lot more jovial.

I guess during a bad economy, everyone's collection methods become more aggressive.

Now you know why I require you to pay in advance. Speaking of which my cousin just got her stitches out. The balm they put on it before she flew back really helped with the scars. Customs almost didn't let her keep it because of the animal "parts".

Not even the wife who you saddled with a baby?

I didn't saddle her with it, she asked for it. She wanted it. I told her about my concerns, let her make the choice.

Muravyets, there are parts of this situation you (understandably) don't know about. You're making a lot of assumptions, though.

Its not bullshit, they don't rely on me. They don't need to. My wife is an executive, her money position is fairly well, won't suffer from my absence, and my son is taken care of, and will be no more or less so with me gone.

...you are made up of so much lame.

Take the baby with you, it will come in handy if you can't catch a squirrel.

Don't listen to these naysayers, we lived 10's of thousands of years in caves, it's in our genetics to understand and bond with nature.

...and all these stories about being trapped under a rock and cutting yourself free with a penknife, that's like saying don't swim in the sea or a shark will eat you.

All part of propaganda by governments looking to keep us in housing and paying taxes, it's like the Matrix, take the blue pill, or the red pill whatever, and head on out there.

Precautions are for losers, and no one named Baldwin was ever a loser.
You owe him money, don't you? Trying to get out of paying? ;)

Wait, wait, wait. He has a baby?

Dude. Not cool. You do not get to potentially die when you are in charge of tiny people.

I'm not in charge of him, my wife and her mother are in charge of him.

I wash bottles, change diapers, that kind of thing, but nothing that isn't nanny-able. As to him having a father for male example or whatever, I'm not the best choice for that, and I told my wife that before we had him. She wanted to have him anyway, so we did. She knew the score going in.

Nothing wrong with it.. anyone from 35 on to 60 is middle aged these days.Ah, especially with the altered concept of "retirement age" and such.

I'm not in charge of him, my wife and her mother are in charge of him.

I wash bottles, change diapers, that kind of thing, but nothing that isn't nanny-able. As to him having a father for male example or whatever, I'm not the best choice for that, and I told my wife that before we had him. She wanted to have him anyway, so we did. She knew the score going in.

Abducted your swimmers while you were asleep, did she? Don't you hate that?

Or self-pity. :p

You know, if you go out in the woods and eat worms all day, I hear they're very nutritious.

I don't think you can actually die from self-pity.

And if you could, dying on a camping fiasco would look better on the tombstone anyway.

Its not bullshit, they don't rely on me. They don't need to. My wife is an executive, her money position is fairly well, won't suffer from my absence, and my son is taken care of, and will be no more or less so with me gone.
yeah because she wont be going crazy taking care of the baby all by herself for a week. she wont have to work all day then come home and take care of the baby all night. she doesnt need a fucking minute to herself to ....go to the bathroom or wash her hair.

and if you dont come back, she wont be completely devastated. the baby wont ever need his father. they wont both wonder why you chose a stupid adventure over them

nooooo they dont rely on you at all.

*SMACK*

I didn't saddle her with it, she asked for it. She wanted it. I told her about my concerns, let her make the choice.

Muravyets, there are parts of this situation you (understandably) don't know about. You're making a lot of assumptions, though.
You'll be saddling her with it if you check out now.

You're determined to go camping in the back country, in winter, carrying no food, for five days, right? She'll end up saddled, raising that kid on her own.

Abducted your swimmers while you were asleep, did she? Don't you hate that?

I didn't suggest that at all. She asked me to impregnate her. She told me she was going off the pill with the intent of having a child with me.

I told her my concerns, let her know that I wouldn't be a good father, at all. She still wanted to go forward, so we did, with informed consent on her part of what my contibutions would be.

I don't think you can actually die from self-pity.

And if you could, dying on a camping fiasco would look better on the tombstone anyway.
Well, it would be funnier.

*glares* Are you sure you want to ask that question?Yup. I'm odd that way, admittedly.

You owe him money, don't you? Trying to get out of paying? ;)

I'm more interested in his highly paid executive wife, hence the request to take the kid with him.

I understand LGs got there first though, damn clowns in their speedy clown cars.

I'm more interested in his highly paid executive wife, hence the request to take the kid with him.

I understand LGs got there first though, damn clowns in their speedy clown cars.
Oh, I see. Not a bad plan, actually.

yeah because she wont be going crazy taking care of the baby all by herself for a week. she wont have to work all day then come home and take care of the baby all night. she doesnt need a fucking minute to herself to ....go to the bathroom or wash her hair.

and if you dont come back, she wont be completely devastated. the baby wont ever need his father. they wont both wonder why you chose a stupid adventure over them

nooooo they dont rely on you at all.

*SMACK*

Single women raise children. Its harder, but like I said, I let my wife know what my contributions would be, with the caveat that they may be nothing, and she decided to move forward knowing that.

Not everyone is a positive presence in every life. Not all fathers are an asset to a family. Its a tough fact, but its true.

Meh. I don't even pretend to know if you're serious or not, and it probably doesn't make much difference. But just so you know--there is absolutely nothing more noble or less pathetic about dying doing something stupid than just shooting yourself. At least suicide doesn't usually give you much time to change your mind. Guaranteed that when you start to starve to death, you're going to want to live more than you ever have in your life. Irony.

You obviously feel a carnal need to test yourself against nature, and I applaud your desire to commune with nature, but you have no idea how to survive for a week in the wilderness. If you fully intend to live off the land you really need training. Your instincts may save your life in a hairy situation, but 99.9% of the civilized world has no idea how to rough it. If you think watching "Survivor Man" will equip you for the rigors of outdoor life you are sadly mistaken. I have been a woodsman for over 40yrs. and I am still VERY careful not to overestimate my knowledge of woodcraft.

Please reconsider your idea for a year, and during that year, learn as much as you can about surviving alone in the wilderness. Take a couple of day to 3 day trips out into the woods and familiarize yourself with the local flora and fauna. There are a lot of good guides about survival out there, but reading a book and actually applying that knowledge are completely different.

You'll be saddling her with it if you check out now.

You're determined to go camping in the back country, in winter, carrying no food, for five days, right? She'll end up saddled, raising that kid on her own.

She'll be no more saddled with it than she is now. She has the wherewithal to arrange for help with the logistic help that I provide if she needs it.

Meh. I don't even pretend to know if you're serious or not, and it probably doesn't make much difference. But just so you know--there is absolutely nothing more noble or less pathetic about dying doing something stupid than just shooting yourself. At least suicide doesn't usually give you much time to change your mind. Guaranteed that when you start to starve to death, you're going to want to live more than you ever have in your life. Irony.

Well, maybe that's the lesson nature has to teach me. Then, once I have the motivation to live, I'll find out if I have the ability to survive.

Suicide doesn't give the opportunity for that lesson.

Abducted your swimmers while you were asleep, did she? Don't you hate that?Succubus!

Single women raise children. Its harder, but like I said, I let my wife know what my contributions would be, with the caveat that they may be nothing, and she decided to move forward knowing that.

Not everyone is a positive presence in every life. Not all fathers are an asset to a family. Its a tough fact, but its true.
oh she'll get by.

that doesnt change that she does rely on you. there is more to fatherhood than making money.

I'm more interested in his highly paid executive wife, hence the request to take the kid with him.

I understand LGs got there first though, damn clowns in their speedy clown cars.

That was the worst part. LG was just sort of there. I think its some kind of weird circus-person sense that he learned from the fortunte telling Gypsy lady in he decorated-wagon-slash-meth-lab.

Well, maybe that's the lesson nature has to teach me. Then, once I have the motivation to live, I'll find out if I have the ability to survive.

Suicide doesn't give the opportunity for that lesson.

A bottle of extra-strength Tylenol does, within a short time frame. And it's cheap. Hard on the kidneys, though. Antitoxin tastes like rotting eggs.

Well, maybe that's the lesson nature has to teach me. Then, once I have the motivation to live, I'll find out if I have the ability to survive.

Suicide doesn't give the opportunity for that lesson.

In my part of the world they have an old saying: a man is not a man until he's thwacked a hibernating bear on the nose.

Loses a little of the poetry in translation.

oh she'll get by.

that doesnt change that she does rely on you. there is more to fatherhood than making money.

Yes, lots of things. I'm bad at all of them and I told her that before we conceived. She knew, and knows, not to rely on me for those things, and doesn't.

Succubus!

The accusation has been made before. :$

Meh. I don't even pretend to know if you're serious or not, and it probably doesn't make much difference. But just so you know--there is absolutely nothing more noble or less pathetic about dying doing something stupid than just shooting yourself. At least suicide doesn't usually give you much time to change your mind. Guaranteed that when you start to starve to death, you're going to want to live more than you ever have in your life. Irony.

Tim Cahill, the adventure travel writer and journalist for Rolling Stone, once wrote a piece about how he and an RS photographer decided to hike across Death Valley in August, carrying only the minimum of what they thought they would need to survive.

The park rangers absolutely vetoed that plan and forced them to stick to a planned route and stash water caches along the way. Even so, it was a not good trip, and the rangers had to go looking for them to make sure they were okay (though they did manage, just barely, to finish the hike).

At the start of the article/memoir about that ordeal, Cahill complained about the local newspaper article that was written about how the rangers had to go out to check on them. The headline was, I think, "Hikers Found Alive, Exhausted." (Something like that.) Cahill said they may as well have written "Half-Dead Dumbshits Found in Desert."

I'm so imagining a winter version of that.

A bottle of extra-strength Tylenol does, within a short time frame. And it's cheap. Hard on the kidneys, though. Antitoxin tastes like rotting eggs.

Yeah, seeing if I can survive an overdose isn't really the same thing. That tests the resilience of my biochemistry, or something, but thats not what I want to test. So, doesn't work.

Yeah, seeing if I can survive an overdose isn't really the same thing. That tests the resilience of my biochemistry, or something, but thats not what I want to test. So, doesn't work.

Not really the point I was making, but that's okay, because I really don't recommend it anyway!

I'm so imagining a winter version of that.

If there's anything left to find.

Cahill said they may as well have written "Half-Dead Dumbshits Found in Desert."

I'm so imagining a winter version of that.

I may not be half-dead. I could be 3/4 dead. I could come out tempered, somehow. I could starve.

Seriously doubt I'll make the news, though.

I may not be half-dead. I could be 3/4 dead. I could come out tempered, somehow. I could starve.

Seriously doubt I'll make the news, though.
depends on how stupid you are.

spectacular stupidity always makes the news.

...ugh, I totally read the map wrong. I've spent my whole life at sea level, I didn't notice it was off! The pass isn't at 4,000 ft, it's at 11,760.

That said, I got sick more from the sudden change than the altitude itself. We ascended at least 1,500 ft in a day.

Meters, feets, meh same difference, no?

No my escapist fantasies are the French Foreign Legion and suicide. This, I'm actually going to go do. Seriously.

It's your death. And your cavelier attitude towards your spousal and parental responsibilities is awful. Does your wife know you are functionally planning your suicide? Because, from what you've posted, that's what you are doing.

You obviously feel a carnal need to test yourself against nature, and I applaud your desire to commune with nature, but you have no idea how to survive for a week in the wilderness. If you fully intend to live off the land you really need training. Your instincts may save your life in a hairy situation, but 99.9% of the civilized world has no idea how to rough it. If you think watching "Survivor Man" will equip you for the rigors of outdoor life you are sadly mistaken. I have been a woodsman for over 40yrs. and I am still VERY careful not to overestimate my knowledge of woodcraft.

Please reconsider your idea for a year, and during that year, learn as much as you can about surviving alone in the wilderness. Take a couple of day to 3 day trips out into the woods and familiarize yourself with the local flora and fauna. There are a lot of good guides about survival out there, but reading a book and actually applying that knowledge are completely different.

^^^ This. Seriously.

I've lived in the backcounty for long stretches (2-3 weeks in some cases) and your plan is suicidal.

Not really the point I was making, but that's okay, because I really don't recommend it anyway!

The point is, this actually is better than suicide. I could conceivably survive and learn from this.

I received an amusing card once, before I went off on my travels, it was a cartoon of a man on a mountain path with a backpack standing face to face with himself wearing a suit and briefcase, tag-line being: after years of searching, Malcolm finally found himself.

The problem with going out to find oneself is that you can come to a truly boring conclusion.

depends on how stupid you are.

spectacular stupidity always makes the news.

This may be stupid, but its hardly spectacular. Trying to jump my motorcycle over the canyon or something, maybe, but this is just too ordinary a way to go.

I can't tell if Bear Grylls here is serious or not with the large amount of stupid emanating from this thread. What it boils down to Baldwin, if you don't know how survive a week in the woods... you won't. Pretty simple. You're best bet is to take a number (more than one) of survival/backcountry camping courses. Learn from the professionals, practice what you've learned in a safe, forgiving environment. You say you want the risk? Learn how to manage that risk first. Hanging out in the backcountry is always risky, why not better your odds of survival rather than winding up on page three of the newspaper?

It's your death. And your cavelier attitude towards your spousal and parental responsibilities is awful. Does your wife know you are functionally planning your suicide? Because, from what you've posted, that's what you are doing.

^^^ This. Seriously.

I've lived in the backcounty for long stretches (2-3 weeks in some cases) and your plan is suicidal.

If I survive this, I'm totally going haha on all of you.

But to be fair, I'm going to carry a note on me, letting somebody know to post here if my body is found, so you can all go haha if you were right.

The accusation has been made before. :$Hey, i'm all good with the "succu" part, as you well know. It's all the rest that gets me iffy about it.
<.<
>.>

I can't tell if Bear Grylls here is serious or not with the large amount of stupid emanating from this thread. What it boils down to Baldwin, if you don't know how survive a week in the woods... you won't. Pretty simple. You're best bet is to take a number (more than one) of survival/backcountry camping courses. Learn from the professionals, practice what you've learned in a safe, forgiving environment. You say you want the risk? Learn how to manage that risk first. Hanging out in the backcountry is always risky, why not better your odds of survival rather than winding up on page three of the newspaper?

The problem is, if I do all the stuff you're describing, I will have managed the risk down so low as to defeat the purpose.

Well, maybe that's the lesson nature has to teach me. Then, once I have the motivation to live, I'll find out if I have the ability to survive.

Suicide doesn't give the opportunity for that lesson.

Walking out into the backcountry purposely unprepared and ignorant of how to survive is functionally no different from suicide by swallowing a bottle of pills. At leat the pills won't endanger the SAR teams that will have to come looking for your corpse.

But to be fair, I'm going to carry a note on me, letting somebody know to post here if my body is found, so you can all go haha if you were right.
There's funnier things to laugh at than loss. Especially of intelligence and potential, even more especially in this particular day/age/political climate.

The accusation has been made before. :$
Sounds like an interesting story is attached to that.

The problem is, if I do all the stuff you're describing, I will have managed the risk down so low as to defeat the purpose.

No, you'll have managed the risk down to a level where you will have the chance to survive.

Walking out into the backcountry purposely unprepared and ignorant of how to survive is functionally no different from suicide by swallowing a bottle of pills. At leat the pills won't endanger the SAR teams that will have to come looking for your corpse.

That's dealt with easily. I'll let somebody know where my location was, and and that I'll be back in a few weeks. If I don't make it, I'll be easily found, no risk to a search and rescue group.

This just occurred to me:

Baldwin: If you really want to test your mettle, learn exotic skills, face terrifying death on a daily basis, be away from your family, but still maybe make some money -- you should take up ocean yacht racing.

Seriously. It's a profession nowadays. It takes many years of practice to get good enough to be on a crew, but from day one of training, your mettle will be tested and you will face death in the jaws of a vast and uncaring Nature pretty much every minute of every day. Especially on the around the world races, which circle Antarctica.

I was researching storms at sea for a story I'm writing, and I found a whole bunch of yacht racing youtube videos, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ&feature=related

Note how small that vessel is and how badly the crew get knocked around on it. My favorite part is near the middle where someone asks, "Do we have everybody?" (i.e. still on board.) Wouldn't you find that challenging? And if you survive AND win the race, you get money.

Or you could become a crab fisherman in the Bering Strait. They make money, too, and face lots of challenges from nature. Watch "Deadliest Catch."

I'm just trying to think of ways you can throw yourself into the jaws of death without totally screwing your family.

That's dealt with easily. I'll let somebody know where my location was, and and that I'll be back in a few weeks. If I don't make it, I'll be easily found, no risk to a search and rescue group.
Unless you were planning on giving someone GPS coordinates for your corpse (And assuming said corpse doesn't end up traveling a bit) that's not going to work.

You WILL have to travel to hunt and that could be miles in some bad terrain.

No, you'll have managed the risk down to a level where you will have the chance to survive.

Taking a year's worth of classes, learning about the requisite equipment and techniques, familiarzing myself with the area, that's more than just a "chance". People with the necessary experience and knowledge probably survive more often that not.

An old outdoorsman I knew when I lived in Colorado (he was originally from Utah) once told me that 90% of survival is will. He said there is some part of you that is activated when you are at serious risk of death. I want to wake up that part.

This just occurred to me:

Baldwin: If you really want to test your mettle, learn exotic skills, face terrifying death on a daily basis, be away from your family, but still maybe make some money -- you should take up ocean yacht racing.

Seriously. It's a profession nowadays. It takes many years of practice to get good enough to be on a crew, but from day one of training, your mettle will be tested and you will face death in the jaws of a vast and uncaring Nature pretty much every minute of every day. Especially on the around the world races, which circle Antarctica.

I was researching storms at sea for a story I'm writing, and I found a whole bunch of yacht racing youtube videos, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ&feature=related

Note how small that vessel is and how badly the crew get knocked around on it. My favorite part is near the middle where someone asks, "Do we have everybody?" (i.e. still on board.) Wouldn't you find that challenging? And if you survive AND win the race, you get money.

Or you could become a crab fisherman in the Bering Strait. They make money, too, and face lots of challenges from nature. Watch "Deadliest Catch."

I'm just trying to think of ways you can throw yourself into the jaws of death without totally screwing your family.
Hell, learn how to drive a truck and take up driving on the ice roads.

I may not be half-dead. I could be 3/4 dead. I could come out tempered, somehow. I could starve.

Seriously doubt I'll make the news, though.
It was only a local paper. Like the local Pennysaver or something.

Unless you were planning on giving someone GPS coordinates for your corpse (And assuming said corpse doesn't end up traveling a bit) that's not going to work.

You WILL have to travel to hunt and that could be miles in some bad terrain.

I checked, and there are some areas where you can hunt certain small game county wide, year round, without a license. Some of them aren't actually that remote.

The places I've hunted in Texas and Colorado were also pretty easily accessible to emergency crews, if they a 4x4 like we had.

I'm just trying to think of ways you can throw yourself into the jaws of death without totally screwing your family.

Why would me getting clipped trying to catch a crustacean screw them any less? Because I send them whatever money I made?

Also, the ice-racing thing looks like you'd have to be really passionate about it to even get involved, much less win and make money.

You're definitely getting creative, though.

That's dealt with easily. I'll let somebody know where my location was, and and that I'll be back in a few weeks. If I don't make it, I'll be easily found, no risk to a search and rescue group.
We're up to a few weeks now? Before it was only five days.

If you're talking a few weeks, I begin to suspect you are not going for suicide by nature, but rather planning to cut out on your marriage and maybe some debts, like that guy who faked his own death in a plane crash. At least you won't be leaving a plane on autopilot that could potentially kill someone when it came down.

I checked, and there are some areas where you can hunt certain small game county wide, year round, without a license. Some of them aren't actually that remote.

The places I've hunted in Texas and Colorado were also pretty easily accessible to emergency crews, if they a 4x4 like we had.
Not that you have to drive to remote areas to hunt game, but that the game moves. Especially if you're taking pot shots at it. In winter, it will be even harder to find.

Common, you hunted, you know that animals just don't wander up to you when you want them to.

That's dealt with easily. I'll let somebody know where my location was, and and that I'll be back in a few weeks. If I don't make it, I'll be easily found, no risk to a search and rescue group.

Ermm, I'm quite intimately familiar with how SAR works, and you will be putting others at risk.

Hell, learn how to drive a truck and take up driving on the ice roads.

I think I saw something like that on Discovery, or maybe History channel.

I don't want to take somebody's truck with me if I can't hack it.

I'd like the pressure of this to be solely about my own survival.

Ermm, I'm quite intimately familiar with how SAR works, and you will be putting others at risk.

Well, explain it to me.

Many of the places I've hunted, even bigger game, are easily accessible. The small game places I'm looking at, even more so.

I'll leave information about my location, so there will be no need for a wide search.

I believe you when you say you know how it works, so tell me where the danger to a search and rescue team is?

We're up to a few weeks now? Before it was only five days.

If you're talking a few weeks, I begin to suspect you are not going for suicide by nature, but rather planning to cut out on your marriage and maybe some debts, like that guy who faked his own death in a plane crash. At least you won't be leaving a plane on autopilot that could potentially kill someone when it came down.

The "few weeks" is so they don't come looking for me early, thus reducing the risk.

Wow, you really took that ball and ran with it...

Taking a year's worth of classes, learning about the requisite equipment and techniques, familiarzing myself with the area, that's more than just a "chance".

No it isn't. Part of the thrill with backcountry camping is the unexpected situations that will develop along the way. I know, I've been there and done that. Knowing how to deal with those unexpected situations is what keeps one alive.

People with the necessary experience and knowledge probably survive more often that not.

And that's the point. To survive.

An old outdoorsman I knew when I lived in Colorado (he was originally from Utah) once told me that 90% of survival is will. He said there is some part of you that is activated when you are at serious risk of death. I want to wake up that part.

You will, regardless of the amount of knowledge you have in regards to survival.

Not that you have to drive to remote areas to hunt game, but that the game moves. Especially if you're taking pot shots at it. In winter, it will be even harder to find.

Common, you hunted, you know that animals just don't wander up to you when you want them to.

That's why I'm looking at small game, something relatively pervasive. When I've hunted, even in winter, the little critters were everywhere, saw them constantly.

Why would me getting clipped trying to catch a crustacean screw them any less? Because I send them whatever money I made?
Obviously.

Also, the ice-racing thing looks like you'd have to be really passionate about it to even get involved, much less win and make money.

You're definitely getting creative, though.
It's not ice racing. It's ocean racing. In sailboats. Did you look at the video? You know there's a solo race, too. One guy doing it this year got hit by a wave so hard it snapped his femur -- I mean the big bone in the thigh, the biggest bone in your body -- like a fucking pencil. He had to be rescued by somebody's navy -- Chile, I think. It might have been South Africa, but I think he was off the Horn, not the Cape of Good Hope. The Chilean navy is always saving people down there. They recently had to save a southern ocean cruise ship that specializes in trips to Antarctica. They got hit by a storm and nearly sank. And of course, the Chileans famously found and rescued the Shackleton expedition who had been shipwrecked on Elephant Island off the Antarctic coast, got caught by the winter and survived over 150 days on seal blubber and penguins. Of course, that wasn't one man alone.

No it isn't. Part of the thrill with backcountry camping is the unexpected situations that will develop along the way. I know, I've been there and done that. Knowing how to deal with those unexpected situations is what keeps one alive.

And that's the point. To survive.

I don't want my odds to be that fixed, though. Its exactly because "knowing how to deal with those unexpected situations is what keeps one alive" that having that information would reduce the risk. I don't want to reduce it, not that much.


You will, regardless of the amount of knowledge you have in regards to survival.

You don't know that. In fact, much of what you said leads to the opposite conclusion. You continue to explain that more knowledge leads to a better chance to survive.

The awakening that I'm looking for results from more danger, not less. Well, that or it kills you.

Hell, learn how to drive a truck and take up driving on the ice roads.

:tongue: That's not dangerous, that's fun as hell.

Obviously.


It's not ice racing. It's ocean racing. In sailboats. Did you look at the video? You know there's a solo race, too. One guy doing it this year got hit by a wave so hard it snapped his femur -- I mean the big bone in the thigh, the biggest bone in your body -- like a fucking pencil. He had to be rescued by somebody's navy -- Chile, I think. It might have been South Africa, but I think he was off the Horn, not the Cape of Good Hope. The Chilean navy is always saving people down there. They recently had to save a southern ocean cruise ship that specializes in trips to Antarctica. They got hit by a storm and nearly sank. And of course, the Chileans famously found and rescued the Shackleton expedition who had been shipwrecked on Elephant Island off the Antarctic coast, got caught by the winter and survived over 150 days on seal blubber and penguins. Of course, that wasn't one man alone.


Now THAT sounds like it would be more of a danger to search and rescue crews.

The "few weeks" is so they don't come looking for me early, thus reducing the risk.

Wow, you really took that ball and ran with it...
It's not much of a run. He's been in the news for days.

His plan didn't sound any more rational than yours.

It's not much of a run. He's been in the news for days.

No, I meant the premise that its what I'm doing is a run.

Now THAT sounds like it would be more of a danger to search and rescue crews.
The degree of danger to those who come to rescue your thrill-seeking ass will be reflected in the bill they send you.

I checked, and there are some areas where you can hunt certain small game county wide, year round, without a license. Some of them aren't actually that remote.

The places I've hunted in Texas and Colorado were also pretty easily accessible to emergency crews, if they a 4x4 like we had.

Just for a little background, I'm an Eagle Scout. I spent time working for the USFS in Californmia as a wilderness patrol, including SAR training. Several members of my family are trained SAR experts.

Being driven out to a hunting stand is totally different from performing SAR. Even if it were at all possible for you to leave an accurate description of where you intended to be, which I am not at all confident you can do, and then actually be at where you've indicated when you get into trouble, which is even more doubtful (probability so close to 0 as to be indistinguishable, from what you've indicated your skil level and plans are), that still leaves a great deal of searching that will need to be done.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is your plan:

Walk into the remote backcountry somewhere in the Southwestern US not knowing how to navigate, not knowing how to light a fire, and carrying nothing more than a sleeping bag and a small caliber firearm.

I asked before if your wife knows about your plans, and you gave a flippant reply. That tells me she doesn't know.

Be a decent fellow and have her read this thread.

No, I meant the premise that its what I'm doing is a run.
It's the only rational explanation for why you would be telling everyone on the interwebs all about how you're planning to feed yourself to bears to awaken something within (the bears). Obviously, you are preparing to commit fraud.

The degree of danger to those who come to rescue your thrill-seeking ass will be reflected in the bill they send you.

Well, Dai seems to have some experience with search and rescue, and they'll let me know how it works.

Even if the only thing I learn from this thread is how to make sure I'm easily retrieved (if and when that's necessary) if I don't make it, that will be worth it.

I asked before if your wife knows about your plans, and you gave a flippant reply. That tells me she doesn't know.

Be a decent fellow and have her read this thread.
She should get a couple of copies so her divorce lawyer can read it, too. And maybe the DA.

It's the only rational explanation for why you would be telling everyone on the interwebs all about how you're planning to feed yourself to bears to awaken something within (the bears). Obviously, you are preparing to commit fraud.
I wasn't joking about that. You will be billed for any search and rescue mounted because of this ridiculous scheme.

I don't want my odds to be that fixed, though. Its exactly because "knowing how to deal with those unexpected situations is what keeps one alive" that having that information would reduce the risk. I don't want to reduce it, not that much.

Fixed odds? This is life, whether it be in the city with a wife and kid or out in the woods there are no fixed odds.

You don't know that. In fact, much of what you said leads to the opposite conclusion. You continue to explain that more knowledge leads to a better chance to survive.

The awakening that I'm looking for results from more danger, not less. Well, that or it kills you.

I have strong suspicion, what with everyone telling you you will die, that you are throwing logic out the window in an effort to slug it out uphill in order to prove us all wrong.

All I can tell you is that you never look at life the same when you've seen the view from 14,000 feet. I don't know about a week, but I think that if you've got the itch, you should scratch it while you can. Be sensible about it, but go for it.

Fixed odds? This is life, whether it be in the city with a wife and kid or out in the woods there are no fixed odds.



I have strong suspicion, what with everyone telling you you will die, that you are throwing logic out the window in an effort to slug it out uphill in order to prove us all wrong.
The way he talks so wistfully about seeking the razor's edge even to the point of death, I wonder how he'd feel if he went on this trip, and it went really smoothly, and was very relaxing but not at all challenging, and nobody needs to come rescue him, and nobody misses him while he's away, and he returns to his ordinary life, and then while he's commuting to or from work, he gets caught in a massive earthquake or flood or tornado or something, and really does have to face imminent death by Nature, and test all his survival skills, just to get out of the crushing grip of nature in the middle of the suburbs or downtown. That would be a nice irony, don't you think?

Just for a little background, I'm an Eagle Scout. I spent time working for the USFS in Californmia as a wilderness patrol, including SAR training. Several members of my family are trained SAR experts.

I was and am willing to take your expertise as given.


Being driven out to a hunting stand is totally different from performing SAR.

Yes, I understand that. The point was to illustrate that I wouldn't be going anywhere difficult to get to.


Even if it were at all possible for you to leave an accurate description of where you intended to be, which I am not at all confident you can do, and then actually be at where you've indicated when you get into trouble, which is even more doubtful (probability so close to 0 as to be indistinguishable, from what you've indicated your skil level and plans are), that still leaves a great deal of searching that will need to be done.

Well, I can delay long enough to learn enough cartography to give a description of where I'll be, and I don't intend to range widely once I've found my spot. If for some reason my chosen spot is unsuitable, I'll abort and try again another time, somewhere else.

But, one part I'm not following. You say that, even if I were able to mark my spot and stay there, it still requires a great deal of searching. Why?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is your plan:

Walk into the remote backcountry somewhere in the Southwestern US not knowing how to navigate, not knowing how to light a fire, and carrying nothing more than a sleeping bag and a small caliber firearm.

No, this isn't correct. As stated in the OP, I intend to bring clothing, tools, firearm, bedroll, and I'm not opposed to various other gear. I want to be minimalistic with the food, though.


I asked before if your wife knows about your plans, and you gave a flippant reply. That tells me she doesn't know.

Be a decent fellow and have her read this thread.

I never claimed to be a decent fellow, but she does know I plan to potentially leave, for a week or more.

She also knows that I don't intend to stay with her much longer. We've made co-ordinated arrangements for an extended absence on my part, with the understanding it may be permanent.

If you could elaborate for me on why the search and rescue groups, even if give an accurate position that I don't stray from would have to search very widely? Perhaps I could carry a small one way but short range transmitter of some kind, that only broadcasts position. That way, if I fall in a ditch or something, they could find me from only a basic location.

She should get a couple of copies so her divorce lawyer can read it, too. And maybe the DA.

I have given her documentation giving her sole posession of anything of value.
I've told her I will sign any document her she wants to put in front of me.

Seriously, Muravyets, again, there is a lot about this situation you don't know, and you're making a lot of assumptions.

I have given her documentation giving her sole posession of anything of value.
I've told her I will sign any document her she wants to put in front of me.

Seriously, Muravyets, again, there is a lot about this situation you don't know, and you're making a lot of assumptions.
The only assumption I'm making is that you are being foolish. Everything I say about your family life is meant to show just how foolish your plans appear to anyone who knows anything at all about being in the wilderness.

She should get a couple of copies so her divorce lawyer can read it, too. And maybe the DA.

Wouldn't it take more expertise to fake dying in the woods than to actually do it?

Fixed odds? This is life, whether it be in the city with a wife and kid or out in the woods there are no fixed odds.

I have strong suspicion, what with everyone telling you you will die, that you are throwing logic out the window in an effort to slug it out uphill in order to prove us all wrong.

Improving your chances is one way of fixing the odds. The things you've advocated would improve my chances of survival, the odds.

Also, surviving wouldn't prove you all wrong, because I could just survive on sheer dumb luck and it was still ill advised all around.

The only assumption I'm making is that you are being foolish. Everything I say about your family life is meant to show just how foolish your plans appear to anyone who knows anything at all about being in the wilderness.

Your comment about a divorce attorney assumes that she has anything to gain by her attorney gaining access to anything about what I'm going to do. My wife already has my consent to any divorce decree she wants to pursue, in writing, and quit claims on all of our real property.

Thus, your comment about her divorce lawyer represented an assumption, an incorrect one.

Anyway, like I said, it was nice knowing you. Enjoy your next life.

I firmly believe that every person has the absolute right to take themselves to hell in the handbasket of their choice, and if your choice runs to fantasies of wilderness life, go for it. You'll die. Uncomfortably. Of hypothermia. Quickly. But it's your choice, and I have no interest in standing in your way.

But don't expect me to take it seriously. I doubt I could even take your actual death seriously, if you met it this way.

Good luck. :D

Anyway, like I said, it was nice knowing you. Enjoy your next life.

I firmly believe that every person has the absolute right to take themselves to hell in the handbasket of their choice, and if your choice runs to fantasies of wilderness life, go for it. You'll die. Uncomfortably. Of hypothermia. Quickly. But it's your choice, and I have no interest in standing in your way.

But don't expect me to take it seriously. I doubt I could even take your actual death seriously, if you met it this way.

Good luck. :D

I have no expectations of you taking it seriously, although you've made a number of serious comments. But you don't have to take this seriously for it to succeed or fail.

I suppose I do, though, so I want to have a good run down on the search and rescue issue, and devise a way to mitigate it.

Improving your chances is one way of fixing the odds. The things you've advocated would improve my chances of survival, the odds.

It's not fixing the odds. A guarantee of your survival would be fixing the odds. Like driving an RV out there with a full fridge and solar panel strapped to the roof. Improving your odds is merely that. It doesn't remove any of the risk associated with your 'expedition', just the stupidity that could get you killed. Meaning you lose. And nature wins.

Also, surviving wouldn't prove you all wrong, because I could just survive on sheer dumb luck and it was still ill advised all around.

Your absolutely right. You could survive on dumb luck. But seeing as you insist on dumb luck being the key to your survival I wouldn't place any bets.

Anyway, like I said, it was nice knowing you. Enjoy your next life.

I firmly believe that every person has the absolute right to take themselves to hell in the handbasket of their choice, and if your choice runs to fantasies of wilderness life, go for it. You'll die. Uncomfortably. Of hypothermia. Quickly. But it's your choice, and I have no interest in standing in your way.

But don't expect me to take it seriously. I doubt I could even take your actual death seriously, if you met it this way.

Good luck. :D

^ This, more or less. It probably won't be quickly though. Hypothermia takes it's time.

It's not fixing the odds. A guarantee of your survival would be fixing the odds. Like driving an RV out there with a full fridge and solar panel strapped to the roof. Improving your odds is merely that. It doesn't remove any of the risk associated with your 'expedition', just the stupidity that could get you killed. Meaning you lose. And nature wins.


Ah, then we're using "fix" differently. Your use sounds better, so I'll rephrase.

I don't want to improve the odds so much that my survival is as likely as it would be for an expert.


Your absolutely right. You could survive on dumb luck. But seeing as you insist on dumb luck being the key to your survival I wouldn't place any bets.

I didn't say I'm insisting on dumb luck being the key to my survival.

I mentioned "dumb luck" to point out that me surviving wouldn't prove anything about any of you being wrong, because I COULD survive via dumb luck, and the trip was still a bad idea.

In no way does that indicate that I'm "insisting on dumb luck", only that the potential for it would mean that my survival isn't really proof of anything. I thought I was more clear with that line of reasoning. Hopefully now I've been more so.

EDIT: My actual "key to survival" will be a sudden awareness of a desire to survive, which will motivate the necessary work to survive. I mentioned something like that earlier, but its a big thread, I can understand if you didn't spot that.

Ah, then we're using "fix" differently. Your use sounds better, so I'll rephrase.

I don't want to improve the odds so much that my survival is as likely as it would be for an expert.



I didn't say I'm insisting on dumb luck being the key to my survival.

I mentioned "dumb luck" to point out that me surviving wouldn't prove anything about any of you being wrong, because I COULD survive via dumb luck.

In no way does that indicate that I'm "insisting on dumb luck", only that the potential for it would mean that my survival isn't really proof of anything. I thought I was more clear with that line of reasoning. Hopefully now I've been more so.

EDIT: My actual "key to survival" will be a sudden awareness of a desire to survive, which will motivate the necessary work to survive. I mentioned something like that earlier, but its a big thread, I can understand if you didn't spot that.

I'm done trying to force logic and good sense your way. Whatever you survive on, have fun at least.

I'm done trying to force logic and good sense your way. Whatever you survive on, have fun at least.

Since you're an advocate of logic, let me put it this way:

Person A says: "I plan to try to figure out this answer"

Person B says: "You're just trying to do that to prove how smart you are."

Person A says" "Well, no, it wouldn't really prove that I'm smart, I could have just gotten lucky, or arrived at the right answer via incorrect method".

Person B says: "Well, since you plan on using on incorrect method, I won't bet on it".


The problem is, Person A never said they were planning on just guessing or that they were "insisting" on using an incorrect method. They were simply pointing out that, since that's a possibility, getting the right answer isn't proof of anything.

Similarly, I never "insisted" on using dumb luck. I was just pointing out that if I were to survive, it wouldn't be in an attempt to "prove you all wrong" as you suggested, because even if I survive, it might have been merely because of luck and so doesn't prove that you were all wrong.

In fact, if the awakening doesn't come, surviviving won't even serve the actual goal, but hopefully I've explained why proving you all wrong isn't the goal.

What you're actually doing is running away from responsibility, you've been doing it all your life, impossible to succeed when you're too afraid of failure.

Easy to do through your 20's, by your 30's you're running out of places to go and realising you're running nowhere anyway.

This plan to head into the middle of nowhere is apt really, you'll find nothing there anyway, nothing about yourself, nothing about nothing.

Should I join the army, should I be a priest, should I do anything where I don't actually have to take real responsibility for doing anything?

What you're actually doing is running away from responsibility, you've been doing it all your life, impossible to succeed when you're too afraid of failure.

Easy to do through your 20's, by your 30's you're running out of places to go and realising you're running nowhere anyway.

This plan to head into the middle of nowhere is apt really, you'll find nothing there anyway, nothing about yourself, nothing about nothing.

Should I join the army, should I be a priest, should I do anything where I don't actually have to take real responsibility for doing anything?

Yeah, but the army and seminary take a long time. This will be short.

Baldwin for Christ, I would like to clarify a few things and this thread is quite long and I want to do this quickly, so I hope you wouldn't mind me asking this, even if you have already answered.

Could you tell me, in detail, exactly what your plan is. I know you said something about an awakening or something, could you tell me what that's about?

Also, what else do you plan on using in your survival plan. I have read quite a bit of this thread, but I might have missed something.

Thanks in advance for the answer.

Sure. Like I said in the OP, I'm going to get some camping stuff, supplies, tools, clothing, etc, and go somewhere fairly easily accessible. I'm going to bring minimal food supplies and try to shoot and eat some small game (I've found that in many areas, certain small game can be taken without license and year round). Somebody suggested water tablets of some kind. I'm told solid fire-starting fuel is better than fluid.

I'm now also looking into some kind of short range transmitter, as well as the necessary navigation gear to locate a spot and stay near it, that I will have provided to people who know me, so that if I don't come back on schedule, they can tell the search and rescue folks where to find me so there doesn't have to be a big search.

Then, I'm going to go there and try to stay for a week.

Have you been camping alone though? Camping near cars with other people and camping alone...they're different.

Or you know, go get dehydrated and lost and eat poisonous berries and die in the woods and get eaten by the wildlife.....I'm sure it's fun. Don't forget to leave your cell phone at home....no service out there anyway.

You crazy Americans and your deadly mammals!

Sure. Like I said in the OP, I'm going to get some camping stuff, supplies, tools, clothing, etc, and go somewhere fairly easily accessible. I'm going to bring minimal food supplies and try to shoot and eat some small game (I've found that in many areas, certain small game can be taken without license and year round). Somebody suggested water tablets of some kind. I'm told solid fire-starting fuel is better than fluid.

I'm now also looking into some kind of short range transmitter, as well as the necessary navigation gear to locate a spot and stay near it, that I will have provided to people who know me, so that if I don't come back on schedule, they can tell the search and rescue folks where to find me so there doesn't have to be a big search.

Then, I'm going to go there and try to stay for a week.

So, I assume you are going to inform your wife about this, correct?

You crazy Americans and your deadly mammals!

I think the Canadians have deadlier stuff, but I could be wrong. In the places that I'm researching, most of them don't have a lot of really big predators.

Baldwin for Christ, I would like to clarify a few things and this thread is quite long and I want to do this quickly, so I hope you wouldn't mind me asking this, even if you have already answered.

Could you tell me, in detail, exactly what your plan is. I know you said something about an awakening or something, could you tell me what that's about?

Also, what else do you plan on using in your survival plan. I have read quite a bit of this thread, but I might have missed something.

Thanks in advance for the answer.

He wants to break himself, explode the chains of self-doubt constricting him, jump free from the shell of lethargy and ennui weighing him down, find some purpose, be the Nietzchean superman he knows he can be if he could just free himself from the gnawing doubt that he's just not good enough.

None of us are, some of us feel that we could be but are afraid to test the limits in case we discover the boring truth that we're all pretty much average.

How dreary that would be.

So, I assume you are going to inform your wife about this, correct?

Once the plan is solidified, probably, unless putting the plan together takes so long that we've already separated, in which case, probably not.

He wants to break himself, explode the chains of self-doubt constricting him, jump free from the shell of lethargy and ennui, find some purpose, be the Nietzchean superman he knows he can be if he could just free himself of the gnawing doubt that he's just not good enough.

None of us are, some of us feel that we could be but are afraid to test the limits in case we discover the boring truth that we're all pretty much average.

How dreary that would be.

Sort of, but the earlier thing you mentioned about running away is closer.

That first paragraph you gave here would be great, though, but your earlier post fit better.

So, are you in the process of a divorce, or are you just expecting it?

Well, that's getting pretty off topic, and delving more into my personal life than my camping trip, but no, for some reason, divorce hasn't emerged yet. Right now, its a separation.

I welcome further on-topic discussion of the trip, but the questions about my marriage and personal plans shouldn't go much further.

Understood, I'm sorry if I intruded.

About the trip then, how much more planning are you going to do, because your current plan seems a bit... sparse.

You weren't the first to intrude, and by the time you got here, it was a being pursued many people, so I can understand why you mentioned it.

Yeah, the plan is thin right now. I haven't even chosen the spot. But I'm honestly glad I opened this thread, because the important issue of search and rescue issues came up. Its added another dimension, and I'm currently looking at equipment that will allow me to find and mark my spot and stay close to it, so if I become injured or killed, search and rescue can locate me easily.

For the minimal food, I haven't chosen between MRE's or energy bars or some commercial camping food. The weather patterns in the areas I'm looking at indicate that I should add a tent, which I hadn't originally wanted.

Way, way more planning to be done, vitally including location, equipment, etc.

This is what it's about: I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

Self improvement is masturbation. Now self destruction...

The weird impulse of self-flagellation, that through the cracks of pain we see purpose, that when we feel worthless we should punish ourselves with hardship and isolation.

To feel alive again, takes a little taste of salty blood in the mouth.

Start your Fight Club, Baldwin for Christ, knock yourself out.

I say go to your nearest roadside cafe and knock over the beer of the biggest, hairiest man you can find.

if nothing else, it's a good story to tell when you're old.

Start your Fight Club, Baldwin for Christ, knock yourself out.

I say go to your nearest roadside cafe and knock over the beer of the biggest, hairiest man you can find.

if nothing else, it's a good story to tell when you're old.

First you wanted me to hit the bear on the nose, now you want me to knock over the beer of a big, hairy man. At least against the bear, it might run away (maybe).

If I had the depth of Ed Norton and my life was being directed by David Fincher, I would totally go for this.

First you wanted me to hit the bear on the nose, now you want me to knock over the beer of a big, hairy man. At least against the bear, it might run away (maybe).

If I had the depth of Ed Norton and my life was being directed by David Fincher, I would totally go for this.

No one ever takes my advice :(

Don't know why I bother sometimes, people are so ungrateful.

No one ever takes my advice :(

Don't know why I bother sometimes, people are so ungrateful.

Its damn fine advice, Bar. It really is. Like I said, your earlier posts had it dead on.

But I couldn't start a Fight Club even if I wanted. I couldn't even get a NSG debate contest going. Sorry, dude.

I gotta go to bed. Your advice was good though, seriously.

Its damn fine advice, Bar. It really is. Like I said, your earlier posts had it dead on.

But I couldn't start a Fight Club even if I wanted. I couldn't even get a NSG debate contest going. Sorry, dude.

I gotta go to bed. Your advice was good though, seriously.

God himself couldn't get a debate contest going on NSG, don't kick yourself.

I fully support your idea, I wouldn't worry about the naysayers too much although basic precautions are the right advice, it's not actually that hard to stay outdoors for a week.

The hardest part will be the boredom.

What you really need to do is become involved with your kid, it doesn't matter whether you think you'll be a good father, the point is that you simply have to be a father because that's what you are.

So be one.

-snip-

To give you the short version, unless you can write a note before you set out that specifies exact GPS coordinates and landmarks, and can 100% insure that that is exactly where you will be (which is nearly impossible, even for an expert), SAR won't simply be to walk in and find you no problem.

Given that you have no idea how to navigate, and seem to think that just simply learning how to read a map can substitute for experience, you will not end up where you say you will.

As for risks to SAR personnel, backcountry is hazardous, even to experts. You'll be asking people to come looking for you in dead of night and in whatever conditions and terrain you go into. (SAR operations go 24/7.) There's not really any means to mitigate that, other than having a modicrum of an idea of what you're doing.

almost every place i lived when i was growing up was either surrounded by wild nature, or within walking distance of someplace you couldn't see anyone's house or any other sign of human artifact or intrusion. and it was home. and it felt like home. and it still does, when i get a chance to get and be out there.

yes, i feel an affection and a kinship with the spiritness of wild places. each little nich in the hillside, wide place in the creek you have to crawl under the blackberries to get to, surrounded by them, these are my 'churches'. these are special espescially sacred places to me. not because i was raised in any particular indiginous tradition. i wasn't. but it is just something i've always felt.

whenever i was stressed, when i was in school, i would go out into the woods like that. i could feel the psyonic communication of little furry creatures with each other kind of messaging the back of my mind.

the further i could get from where large numbers, even small relatively large numbers, of humans were, the more i felt and feel hugged by big friendly and invisible.

little friendly and invisibles fallow me home and curl up on my bed at night, when the feel like it. i like to think they are bringing me a little of that feeling of being out there i so much miss cooped up in this, what is to me a city, where i live now.

i know it can bite too. it has to. sometimes. and people are so dumb, denying how much our own spirits, as well as our bodies depend on it.

An old outdoorsman I knew when I lived in Colorado (he was originally from Utah) once told me that 90% of survival is will. He said there is some part of you that is activated when you are at serious risk of death. I want to wake up that part.
Yeah, but you need that other 10% worth of knowledge too. Mother Nature is a mean bitch, and her idea of giving you a "B" is to let you die quickly after passing on your genes to the next generation.
If I had the depth of Ed Norton and my life was being directed by David Fincher, I would totally go for this.
This may surprise you, but life is being directed by David Fincher. Is it any coincidence that Fincher directed Zodiac, and that in 1960's San Fransisco there really was a Zodiac Killer? And what about that time black bug-type things started erupting out of German Shepherds and chasing people around prisons?

Okay, so, I guess everything is sort of "in nature" in a way, but I mean the comparatively wild nature. And I admit that I'd be taking clothes, tools, some supplies, maybe a sleeping roll, so its not exactly without modern comforts.


What I'm thinking is, before school really gets going, heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.

I'll admit to the cliche. The idea is that, removed from our modern society of artificial noise and illusory values (I don't know what that means), that I can "commune with nature", and possibly kill and eat a squirrel or something.

I don't expect any kind of deep vision quest, the clouds part and the moon opens like an eye and teaches me to talk the language of the spirits. That would be cool, of course, but I'm not expecting it.

I'm just wondering if immersing one's self in a more "natural" environment gets you a different perspective. Also, how does one cook squirrel?
how much meat do you suppose you get on a Womble?

how much meat do you suppose you get on a Womble?
Would it scar you for life if I told you that they were just puppets?

The weather patterns in the areas I'm looking at indicate that I should add a tent, which I hadn't originally wanted.


I think all and any discussion about whether you are serious, and/or whether you are anything but incredibly, unfathomably naive, unprepared and unfit to attempt such an excursion are settled.

^ This, more or less. It probably won't be quickly though. Hypothermia takes it's time.
That depends on many factors. Sometimes it can take a while for hypothermia to kill. Sometimes just a few hours. Depends on the weather, often.

On, and Baldwin, the reason I make serious comments even though I think the entire proposal is foolish is because this is a publicly viewable forum, and it would be bad, in my opinion, to allow nothing but jokes and romanticization of risk to be put out there with no reference to reality.

WHAT? No way. I don't even like going out of my house. There are like bears outside. And I been told that the outside world is illuminated by, hear this, a GIANT BALL OF FIRE IN THE SKY!!!!... No way... I'll stay inside where it is safe.

Okay, so, I guess everything is sort of "in nature" in a way, but I mean the comparatively wild nature. And I admit that I'd be taking clothes, tools, some supplies, maybe a sleeping roll, so its not exactly without modern comforts.


What I'm thinking is, before school really gets going, heading out to some national park or something, and live outdoors for a week.

I'll admit to the cliche. The idea is that, removed from our modern society of artificial noise and illusory values (I don't know what that means), that I can "commune with nature", and possibly kill and eat a squirrel or something.

I don't expect any kind of deep vision quest, the clouds part and the moon opens like an eye and teaches me to talk the language of the spirits. That would be cool, of course, but I'm not expecting it.

I'm just wondering if immersing one's self in a more "natural" environment gets you a different perspective. Also, how does one cook squirrel?
Camping is a lot of fun. Pick a place with a comfortable day/night temperature range and with an altitude high enough to get away from mosquitoes. Take some freeze-dried food. As far as the squirrel goes, skin it, gut it, and make gravy with it. You can eat most bugs raw.

He wants to break himself, explode the chains of self-doubt constricting him, jump free from the shell of lethargy and ennui weighing him down, find some purpose, be the Nietzchean superman he knows he can be if he could just free himself from the gnawing doubt that he's just not good enough.

None of us are, some of us feel that we could be but are afraid to test the limits in case we discover the boring truth that we're all pretty much average.

How dreary that would be.
I almost wish I could be there, with a video camera, to see him search for that dramatic self-realization while spending day after day just trying to start a fire in the rain while being inescapably cold and wet and hungry and sleep deprived -- because it's real hard to get any sleep under such circumstances. Assuming he survives the trip, I personally would only just love to host an annual viewing of that "vacation tape."

But that's my own little way of being evil.

I've spent a little time in the woods -- not weeks on end, but many short trips -- and I've known people who are hardcore trekkers and mountaineers, and like I said in my first post -- and those real outdoorspeople agreed with me on -- the one thing I most pointedly learned was this:

Human beings invented civilization for a reason.

I think all and any discussion about whether you are serious, and/or whether you are anything but incredibly, unfathomably naive, unprepared and unfit to attempt such an excursion are settled.
I'd go the other way. I've camped without a tent many times. Checking the weather patterns is a sign of forethought.

If you don't want to take a tent, at least take a poncho. You can string it up and make a decent shelter, should the need arise.

I'd go the other way. I've camped without a tent many times. Checking the weather patterns is a sign of forethought.

If you don't want to take a tent, at least take a poncho. You can string it up and make a decent shelter, should the need arise.

In most temperate zones, the poncho with some bungee cords is enough to make adequate shelter. It's also lighter than any tent, and quicker to put up.

Myrmi is right on - probably because he knows that "heavier" means "this sucks".

We'll go further into the woods, and be less fatigued, if we're carrying less gear.

I'd go the other way. I've camped without a tent many times.


In winter?

In winter?

I've camped in winter in Norway and Germany without a tent.

I only had a poncho as a windbreak, and slept in my sleeping bag on a insulated pad.

In winter?
Winter isn't cold or wet everywhere. But, yes, I have spent the night outdoors in Southern Ohio, in the wintertime, without a tent. The poncho was a great windblock and I built a reflector for a fire.

We did camp out one night at a sumemr camp things...

Aiside from that, I'll stick to communing with the internet.

... why not just go camping with yer pals if you're hardly living with nature anyway? Unless you go out into the woods with nothing but your wits to help you, you'll never get close to 'being with nature', whatever that entails.

We did camp out one night at a sumemr camp things...

Aiside from that, I'll stick to communing with the internet.

I are Santiago I and I support this post.

For as much as my father tried to take us (my brother and me) camping, he never succeeded, I just don't like it outdoors.

Winter isn't cold or wet everywhere. But, yes, I have spent the night outdoors in Southern Ohio, in the wintertime, without a tent. The poncho was a great windblock and I built a reflector for a fire.
ok

so having established that you know what is involved...

how wise do you think it is for a guy who hasnt been camping since he was a child to try a weeklong winter wilderness adventure where he plans to feed himself by shooting small game?

ok

so having established that you know what is involved...

how wise do you think it is for a guy who hasnt been camping since he was a child to try a weeklong winter wilderness adventure where he plans to feed himself by shooting small game?

If you can't shoot, and don't know how to hunt, the gun won't do you any good.

Depending on the area, hunting can be harder than you think.

You obviously feel a carnal need to test yourself against nature, and I applaud your desire to commune with nature, but you have no idea how to survive for a week in the wilderness. If you fully intend to live off the land you really need training. Your instincts may save your life in a hairy situation, but 99.9% of the civilized world has no idea how to rough it. If you think watching "Survivor Man" will equip you for the rigors of outdoor life you are sadly mistaken. I have been a woodsman for over 40yrs. and I am still VERY careful not to overestimate my knowledge of woodcraft.

Please reconsider your idea for a year, and during that year, learn as much as you can about surviving alone in the wilderness. Take a couple of day to 3 day trips out into the woods and familiarize yourself with the local flora and fauna. There are a lot of good guides about survival out there, but reading a book and actually applying that knowledge are completely different.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's called being an Indian.

Yeah, it's called being an Indian.

That reminds me - have you and GoG "communed with nature" yet?

Yes, though not being a fan of things that are cold, wet and smell of shit, not my favourite way of spending time.

When I saw the title of this tread I though ohh nice a thread abotu Shamanism, but alas it is not so.

That reminds me - have you and GoG "communed with nature" yet?

8 days.

I can't wait for the time when I get to take him out into the bush...he can build us a shelter and I'll go kill something to eat. Mmmmmm.

I have given her documentation giving her sole posession of anything of value.
I've told her I will sign any document her she wants to put in front of me.

Seriously, Muravyets, again, there is a lot about this situation you don't know, and you're making a lot of assumptions.

I get it now! The wife's in on it. Bring just enough to make it look like it's an unintentional death, and she reaps the insurance money.

I get it now! The wife's in on it. Bring just enough to make it look like it's an unintentional death, and she reaps the insurance money.
i sure hope its a big money policy.

ok

so having established that you know what is involved...

how wise do you think it is for a guy who hasnt been camping since he was a child to try a weeklong winter wilderness adventure where he plans to feed himself by shooting small game?
I'd try an overnight at a KOA first.

I'd try an overnight at a KOA first.
lol

of course i used to tent camp when i was "young" but today the best camping seems to me to be in a fully equipped RV.

lol

of course i used to tent camp when i was "young" but today the best camping seems to me to be in a fully equipped RV.
I don't how well you are aging, but I find that a night on the ground isn't nearly as pleasant at my age, as it was when I was in my twenties, or thirties, or even forties, for that matter. I still camp when I go on fishing trips, but I tend to have a few more comforts -- the lightweight, folding cot is the big luxury I allow.