NationStates Jolt Archive

What everyone knew (and got called "anti-USA" for as if it were somehow something bad or somehow made facts false) is now completely undeniable by those who would like to pretend otherwise: The USA is a human rights abuser, that tortures people, used such torture at Guantanamo Bay, and still denies these people a legal remedy. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html?hpid=topnews)

The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

Crawford, a retired judge who served as general counsel for the Army during the Reagan administration and as Pentagon inspector general when Dick Cheney was secretary of defense, is the first senior Bush administration official responsible for reviewing practices at Guantanamo to publicly state that a detainee was tortured.

Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
[...]
"For 160 days his only contact was with the interrogators," said Crawford, who personally reviewed Qahtani's interrogation records and other military documents. "Forty-eight of 54 consecutive days of 18-to-20-hour interrogations. Standing naked in front of a female agent. Subject to strip searches. And insults to his mother and sister."

At one point he was threatened with a military working dog named Zeus, according to a military report. Qahtani "was forced to wear a woman's bra and had a thong placed on his head during the course of his interrogation" and "was told that his mother and sister were whores." With a leash tied to his chains, he was led around the room "and forced to perform a series of dog tricks," the report shows.

The interrogation, portions of which have been previously described by other news organizations, including The Washington Post, was so intense that Qahtani had to be hospitalized twice at Guantanamo with bradycardia, a condition in which the heart rate falls below 60 beats a minute and which in extreme cases can lead to heart failure and death. At one point Qahtani's heart rate dropped to 35 beats per minute, the record shows.
[...]
"There's no doubt in my mind he would've been on one of those planes had he gained access to the country in August 2001," Crawford said of Qahtani, who remains detained at Guantanamo. "He's a muscle hijacker. . . . He's a very dangerous man. What do you do with him now if you don't charge him and try him? I would be hesitant to say, 'Let him go.' "

So, while this judge admits gross human rights violations against this person, who is still to be tried more than half a decade on, she would still hesitate to live up to due process, equality before the law and human rights by denying him a court hearing and through that the ability to vacate all this "proof" gathered through torture and an ability to be seen as a person before the law? "Yeah, we tortured him and have no evidence that can withstand scrutiny, but we still can't let him go because he isn't innocent until proven guilty in a court of law." The corruption and travesty of justice... well, would be unbelievable if we were talking about a country with standards, but it is the USA we are talking about. It's not unbelievable at all. It's just right up their alley.

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person.

Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11
1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

Throw this into the waterboarding thread as well please.

It's disgusting.

*munches on a taco*

I'd just like to add this to what Fass has said:


The States Parties to this Convention,

Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Recognizing that those rights derive from the inherent dignity of the human person,

Considering the obligation of States under the Charter, in particular Article 55, to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Having regard to article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both of which provide that no one may be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,
Having regard also to the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1975 (resolution 3452 (XXX)),

Desiring to make more effective the struggle against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment throughout the world,

Have agreed as follows:

Part I

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Article 2

Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Article 3

No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

Article 4

Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

Article 5

Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:
When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;
When the alleged offender is a national of that State;
When the victim was a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.
Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in Paragraph 1 of this article.
This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.

*snip*Much hate for the US, I sense.

Much hate for the US, I sense.

You know, I suspect we'd have some pretty vitriolic things to say about Sweden if they did what we did.

I don't even think the apologists are going to be surprised.

You know, I suspect we'd have some pretty vitriolic things to say about Sweden if they did what we did.

A-fucking-men.

We all knew this. I would take this thread seriously, and actually engage in a disscution, but I have a feeling this thread is more about trolling then any real outrage, because of comments like this:

The corruption and travesty of justice... well, would be unbelievable if we were talking about a country with standards, but it is the USA we are talking about. It's not unbelievable at all. It's just right up their alley.

Our allies knew we were doing it to. Now they know for sure. Balls in your court. If you really care about this, and really are appalled, give at least the person who just admitted it summons to the Hague.

Otherwise, any governments outrage over this is faked and merely for publicity.

You know, I suspect we'd have some pretty vitriolic things to say about Sweden if they did what we did.

And Fass would be the New Mittani of Sweden, I garan-fucking-tee it.

We all knew this. I would take this thread seriously, and actually engage in a disscution, I have a feeling this thread is more about trolling then any real outrage, because of comments like this:



Our allies knew we were doing it to. Now they know for sure. Balls in your court. If you really care about this, and really are appalled, give at least the person who just admitted it summons to the Hague.

Otherwise, any governments outrage over this is faked and merely for publicity.



And Fass would be the New Mittani of Sweden, I garan-fucking-tee it.

Not to mention that other than Portugal, no country appears willing to take the inmates into their own countries.

Sending them to their home countries would be a death sentence in most cases, so some other country needs to step up and take them.

I suggest we send them all to Sweden, to live in government-paid housing in Fass' neighborhood, where they can become Swedish citizens and learn to live the Swedish way with Fass.

garan-fucking-tee

So, you read my previous p-fucking-ost. :p

I nearly posted a thread about this story myself and am outraged, embarassed, and pissed-off at my country's conduct.

Fass nonetheless manages to so overreact as to make the Bush Administration seem reasonable in comparison.

And Fass would be the New Mittani of Sweden, I garan-fucking-tee it.

Oh, I'm sure there'd be some, but Fass? He's a gay vegetarian doctor. Somehow I doubt he's too concerned about being labeled 'unpatriotic'.

Not to mention that other than Portugal, no country appears willing to take the inmates into their own countries.

Sending them to their home countries would be a death sentence in most cases, so some other country needs to step up and take them.

I suggest we send them all to Sweden, to live in government-paid housing in Fass' neighborhood, where they can become Swedish citizens and learn to live the Swedish way with Fass.

Ahmm.

Didn't we claim ours back?

I nearly posted a thread about this story myself and am outraged, embarassed, and pissed-off at my country's conduct.

Oh, that would actually make sense. You would sprinkle it with references to violations of the Constitution, etc. It would actually be informative.

Not to mention that other than Portugal, no country appears willing to take the inmates into their own countries.

Então, parabéns aos portugueses por lidarem com seus próprios problemas! Os outros países é que estão errados!

So, congratulations to the Portuguese for dealing with their own problems! The other countries are the wrong ones!

Oh, I'm sure there'd be some, but Fass? He's a gay vegetarian doctor. Somehow I doubt he's too concerned about being labeled 'unpatriotic'.

I was more refering to the blind nationalism then any ideological bent.


But, on topic, yes its terrible. Yes, there should be charges. Yes, I will be pissed if none are brought in my country.

No, I will not be suprised if Europe or the UN fail to press charges, because they are all talk, and most of the outrage by their governments I suspected is faked for PR reasons.

Ahmm.

Didn't we claim ours back?

I'm talking about the ones that are still left there.

The ones that remain are ones no one wants, or they want them back so they can kill them, and a handful of actual bad guys.

Much hate for the US, I sense.

Yes, Fassitude is quite full of hate. But here, what he's put forward is evidence and facts. His seething, uncontrollable, rippling, gay-hulk rage was actually pretty restrained here.

There are some things that should be hated. Torture and blatant, institutionalized human rights abuses should be hated. He's not responding to some little personal disagreement where such emotion would be disproportionate.

By discussing it, Fassitude contributes to change, and this is something we in the US need to change.

Oh, that would actually make sense. You would sprinkle it with references to violations of the Constitution, etc. It would actually be informative.

And not blatant trolling.

Oh, I'm sure there'd be some, but Fass? He's a gay vegetarian doctor. Somehow I doubt he's too concerned about being labeled 'unpatriotic'.

You forgot "Atheist". Never saw him militating "vegetarian" though.

Então, parabéns aos portugueses por lidarem com seus próprios problemas! Os outros países é que estão errados!

So, congratulations to the Portuguese for dealing with their own problems! The other countries are the wrong ones!

They're setting an example, by taking inmates who had nothing to do with Portugal.

They're setting an example, by taking inmates who had nothing to do with Portugal.

Then they're even MORE surprising, and, yes, more praise-worthy.

I'm talking about the ones that are still left there.

The ones that remain are ones no one wants, or they want them back so they can kill them, and a handful of actual bad guys.

You mean ones that have been cleared of charges?

its as if the bad guys are all speaking up in the days before bush leaves office in hopes that he'll jot their names down on the blanket pardon he is going to issue on the morning of the 20th.

We all knew this. I would take this thread seriously, and actually engage in a disscution, but I have a feeling this thread is more about trolling then any real outrage, because of comments like this:

Exactly. This was more in lines with the typical "Death to America the Great Satan" rants you hear publicized all the time in state-sponsored Iranian rallies.


Our allies knew we were doing it to. Now they know for sure. Balls in your court. If you really care about this, and really are appalled, give at least the person who just admitted it summons to the Hague.

Otherwise, any governments outrage over this is faked and merely for publicity.

It's always far easier to condemn others for a wrong-doing than to set up a positive example for others to follow. He's taking a page from PETA's playbook right there.

And Fass would be the New Mittani of Sweden, I garan-fucking-tee it.

More like the Hugo Chavez of Sweden. Always looking for attention which always involves hurricane-force bluster about how the United States is irredeemably ebil.

You forgot "Atheist". Never saw him militating "vegetarian" though.

One time, he occupied a FatBurger and held off mall security for six hours with nothing but his convictions and a 1.5 m summer squash.

Although Al-Qahtani has not yet been released, it is worth noting that he did get a military commission to review his case AND THEY DECIDED TO DISMISS THE CHARGES BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN TORTURED.

That is at least a step in the right direction.

More like the Hugo Chavez of Sweden. Always looking for attention which always involves hurricane-force bluster about how the United States is irredeemably ebil.

Better analogy, because hed probably blame any problems in Sweden on the US anyway.

Although Al-Qahtani has not yet been released, it is worth noting that he did get a military commission to review his case AND THEY DECIDED TO DISMISS THE CHARGES BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN TORTURED.

That is at least a step in the right direction.

The system works!


But dont tell Fass. Itd ruin some good quality nationalism based hate.

One time, he occupied a FatBurger and held off mall security for six hours with nothing but his convictions and a 1.5 m summer squash.
Well who hasn't at some point in their lives? I eat meat all the time, but sometimes a man just has to exercise his right to bear a small vegetable.

The system works!


I wouldn't go that far. The torture should never have happened, the torturers and their superiors should be prosecuted, etc....

One time, he occupied a FatBurger and held off mall security for six hours with nothing but his convictions and a leek.

Fixed for http://jason.leaver.name/avatars/Leekspin.jpg

http://www.leekspin.com/

I heard a clip from Cheney this morning, on the radio, to the effect:

"These are people who have dedicated their lives to killing Americans. I haven't heard any congress people come forward to have them put in their district."

So, see, it was never about avoiding scrutiny or trying to circumvent human rights issues. Its just, nobody in the legislative branch offered to take them.

Really, its like that episode of Little House where they didn't want to split up the orphans.

The USA is a human rights abuser, that tortures people, used such torture at Guantanamo Bay, and still denies these people a legal remedy.

A small point. This doesnt prove the USA is a human rights abuser, it shows the Bush Administration abuses human rights. Unless there was some sort of "beat up and deprive the terrorist of sleep" party I never got invited to.

What everyone knew (and got called "anti-USA" for as if it were somehow something bad or somehow made facts false) is now completely undeniable by those who would like to pretend otherwise:

The USA is a human rights abuser, that tortures people, used such torture at Guantanamo Bay, and still denies these people a legal remedy.[/url]

The corruption and travesty of justice... well, would be unbelievable if we were talking about a country with standards, but it is the USA we are talking about. It's not unbelievable at all. It's just right up their alley.

Oh, God/Satan/the Universe/whatever. Blind hate. I don't even treat Russia, China, Iran, or even Pakistan this badly. Does anyone honestly believe that Europe isn't doing the same kind of thing? They're just keeping it under wraps better than America is. After all, it would be hard to hold a secret prison in Europe without that country's consent. I think you just need a convenient scapegoat.

What Fassitude doesn't bother to mention is that right now all the Guantanamo-based political activity involves planning the prison's closure, as per President-elect Obama's wishes. What you're bitching about is old news. The long-term track record and the here and now are what matter, and both look fine to me. Stop bitching and start being realistic about things.

I wouldn't go that far. The torture should never have happened, the torturers and their superiors should be prosecuted, etc....

Well, now that its been brought to light, lets see if the will be. Clearly our justice system works since we dismissed evidence gotten via torture.

Oh, God/Satan/the Universe/whatever. Blind hate. I don't even treat Russia, China, Iran, or even Pakistan this badly. Does anyone honestly believe that Europe isn't doing the same kind of thing? They're just keeping it under wraps better than America is. After all, it would be hard to hold a secret prison in Europe without that country's consent. I think you just need a convenient scapegoat.

Europe's a collective entity now? And where are these prison camps?

Fixed for http://jason.leaver.name/avatars/Leekspin.jpg

http://www.leekspin.com/

I thought leeks were only wielded by Welshmen. Is Fass a Welshman? I thought he was a Swede.

But, yeah...guess you can't invade a burger joint swinging around an exhumed fish...

The system works!



But it doesnt. If i told you all the charges were dropped against you and you still sat in prison indefinitely for no particular reason does that sound like anything is working to you?

Well, now that its been brought to light, lets see if the will be. Clearly our justice system works since we dismissed evidence gotten via torture.

Well, we're hoping to rise to an even higher standard. If you haven't already, check Cat's thread on 4th amendment, s'cool.

Europe's a collective entity now? And where are these prison camps?

We had some in Eastern Europe.

One time, he occupied a FatBurger and held off mall security for six hours with nothing but his convictions and a 1.5 m summer squash.

I saw that on "World Most Exciting Vegetable Assaults". It was on Fox last night. *nod*

We had some in Eastern Europe.

I heard there was an airport in Poland that they stopped off at for a while, but not about this. Can you provide a link please, this is really interesting.

I heard there was an airport in Poland that they stopped off at for a while, but not about this. Can you provide a link please, this is really interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4461470.stm


Oh look, in that article it appears that we stopped in Sweden on our way to our secret torture prisons. And, since a government plane rarely lands in a foreign country with terrorists without the Government's consent, it appears the Swedes knew about it. And didnt do anything until the public found out and was outraged.

Which, leads me to believe that, as I said earlier, the European governments dont really care, and are merely faking outrage to win votes.

I'm not surprised at all. This is just more confirmation.


Our allies knew we were doing it to. Now they know for sure. Balls in your court. If you really care about this, and really are appalled, give at least the person who just admitted it summons to the Hague.

Otherwise, any governments outrage over this is faked and merely for publicity.
What are you talking about? Hague? What jurisdiction would the Hague have?

Not to mention that other than Portugal, no country appears willing to take the inmates into their own countries.
Disregarding that Albania already have accepted some, and Norway and Germany (and possibly other countries) are discussing this:

So? It was the US that fucked up so grossly and so badly, and violated the rights of these people. Your little Blame-Switch is pointless. If they cannot be returned to their home countries the US has an obligation to permit them to stay in the US.

You break it, you fucking buy it.

I nearly posted a thread about this story myself and am outraged, embarassed, and pissed-off at my country's conduct.
And rightly so.

No, I will not be suprised if Europe or the UN fail to press charges, because they are all talk, and most of the outrage by their governments I suspected is faked for PR reasons.
Press charges? Where would any charges be pressed? Again, what are you talking about? You've been making these strange comments in a different thread before, with no explanation.

A small point. This doesnt prove the USA is a human rights abuser, it shows the Bush Administration abuses human rights. Unless there was some sort of "beat up and deprive the terrorist of sleep" party I never got invited to.
Actually, it does, unfortunately. You see, official government actions will be identified with the country.

A small point. This doesnt prove the USA is a human rights abuser, it shows the Bush Administration abuses human rights. Unless there was some sort of "beat up and deprive the terrorist of sleep" party I never got invited to.

Sorry just stumbled upon this thread and read first and last page. You elect your government to represent your people and you have to deal with the backlash of their actions. You can't elect it, let it run wild, then say "pffft not my problem"

What are you talking about? Hague? What jurisdiction would the Hague have?

*sigh*

The International Criminal Court (ICC or ICCt)[1] was established in 2002 as a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression, although it cannot currently exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression.[2][3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

Sorry just stumbled upon this thread and read first and last page. You elect your government to represent your people and you have to deal with the backlash of their actions. You can't elect it, let it run wild, then say "pffft not my problem"

I agree with this sentiment. That said, though, I hope that at least some of the outcome of the recent elections in the USA are reflective of a public rejection of the Bush administrations actions in this regard.

...
...

:rolleyes:

That's a faceroll.

*sigh*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

And what jurisdiction does the ICC have over American citizens commiting war crimes in Cuba?

:rolleyes:

That's a faceroll.

Why? Why do you roll your eyes at those, especially the UN Convention Against Torture?

A small point. This doesnt prove the USA is a human rights abuser, it shows the Bush Administration abuses human rights. ...

Weaselly bit of semantics.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4461470.stm


Oh look, in that article it appears that we stopped in Sweden on our way to our secret torture prisons. And, since a government plane rarely lands in a foreign country with terrorists without the Government's consent, it appears the Swedes knew about it. And didnt do anything until the public found out and was outraged.

Which, leads me to believe that, as I said earlier, the European governments dont really care, and are merely faking outrage to win votes.

So that somehow makes Sweden just as guilty because they let you use their airspace (though of course using your piss-poor excuse for an argument maybe there was some Swedish party "lets allow those torturing American bastards land at one of our airports" or maybe it was just the people at the top)?

Do you find it so hard to admit that the US was at fault, that you somehow have to project the blame on to other people?

What everyone knew (and got called "anti-USA" for as if it were somehow something bad or somehow made facts false) is now completely undeniable by those who would like to pretend otherwise. ...

You know, I think that I, you, and many other people across the whole world who just like you and me told these things for the last 8 years and got called "anti-american", "friends and supporters of terrorists", "haters of democracy", "pacifist sissies", "ideologically-driven liars" etc for telling the truth deserve APOLOGIES from the governments of the USA and of its staunchest allies, like Blair's and Berlusconi's cabinets.

Why? Why do you roll your eyes at those, especially the UN Convention Against Torture?
I'll try to keep it short.

UN = Worthless.
International conventions = Worthless as soon as anyone with power doesn't feel like obeying them. It's like the retarded kid trying to wave his orange school traffic police vest infront of a speeding car.

Not to mention that I'm so fucking tired of all the comfy Europeans who are sitting in their homes bitching about the world's only real Superpower. I mean really, what's the point? "We don't like you, we're going to nit pick at everything that you do. Oh and help us as soon as we're in trouble later".

Oh and, I'm not from the US. I'm European, from the country where the government decides what you should be spending your money on. Just so you can rule out the LOLURSOPATRIOT IS VARI BIASED!1

You know, I think that I, you, and many other people across the whole world who just like you and me told these things for the last 8 years and got called "anti-american", "friends and supporters of terrorists", "haters of democracy", "pacifist sissies", "ideologically-driven liars" etc for telling the truth deserve APOLOGIES from the governments of the USA and of its staunchest allies, like Blair's and Berlusconi's cabinets.

We will not apologize for protecting American lives!

We will violate everything Americans ostensibly believe in, reduce the freedom, dignity, rights, and value of American lives, and human life in general, we will commit progressively severe monstrosities in attempted secrecy, and we will capitalize on fear more than the terrorists who are supposed to be defined by capitalizing on fear, but

WE WILL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR PROTECTING AMERICAN LIVES!

We will not apologize for protecting American lives!

We will violate everything Americans ostensibly believe in, reduce the freedom, dignity, rights, and value of American lives, and human life in general, we will commit progressively severe monstrosities in attempted secrecy, and we will capitalize on fear more than the terrorists who are supposed to be defined by capitalizing on fear, but

WE WILL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR PROTECTING AMERICAN LIVES!

:fluffle:

I'll try to keep it short.

UN = Worthless.
International conventions = Worthless as soon as anyone with power doesn't feel like obeying them. It's like the retarded kid trying to wave his orange school traffic police vest infront of a speeding car.

Not to mention that I'm so fucking tired of every comfy European who is sitting in their homes bitching about the world's only real Superpower. I mean really, what's the point? "We don't like you, we're going to nit pick at everything that you do. Oh and help us as soon as we're in trouble later".

Oh and, I'm not from the US. I'm European, from the country where the government decides what you should be spending your money on. Just so you can rule out the LOLURSOPATRIOT IS VARI BIASED!1

Does the convention have any legal standing under US law?

You know, I think that I, you, and many other people across the whole world who just like you and me told these things for the last 8 years and got called "anti-american", "friends and supporters of terrorists", "haters of democracy", "pacifist sissies", "ideologically-driven liars" etc for telling the truth deserve APOLOGIES from the governments of the USA and of its staunchest allies, like Blair's and Berlusconi's cabinets.

Seconded. Oh, so seconded. With EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING, seconded! I summon the voice of the world, vox mundi, and I say: SECONDED!

We will not apologize for protecting American lives!

We will violate everything Americans ostensibly believe in, reduce the freedom, dignity, rights, and value of American lives, and human life in general, we will commit progressively severe monstrosities in attempted secrecy, and we will capitalize on fear more than the terrorists who are supposed to be defined by capitalizing on fear, but

WE WILL NOT APOLOGIZE FOR PROTECTING AMERICAN LIVES!

I hereby give you the LG Prize for the thread! :D

Oh and, I'm not from the US. I'm European, from the country where the government decides what you should be spending your money on. Just so you can rule out the LOLURSOPATRIOT IS VARI BIASED!1

Or you CLAIM not to be from the US in an attempt to garner credibility to a post that made no points whatsoever, as if your country of origin mattered on the fact that your post made no points whatsoever.

La-dee-freaking dah. Every signle country on Earth does it when it needs to. Yes Fass, even your beloved, pure land of milk, honey and sunshine faires Sweden does it. So America got caught. That's like an entire classroom of teenagers being pissed off and upset when one person gets caught texting in class.

I hereby give you the LG Prize for the thread! :D

Do I get a patch or something?

Can I have a little ribbon and an American Flag?

Bet there are pardons on this one.

Not to mention that I'm so fucking tired of all the comfy Europeans who are sitting in their homes bitching about the world's only real Superpower. I mean really, what's the point? "We don't like you, we're going to nit pick at everything that you do. Oh and help us as soon as we're in trouble later".

1.Only real superpower? Who?

2.Comfy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_Operation_Enduring_Freedom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force

3.When was the last time the US came to the help of Europe? 1944 iirc. Or 1947 if you want to include ERP. No, bombing a couple of tents in Bengasi doesn't count as "helping Europe".

Oh and, I'm not from the US. I'm European, from the country where the government decides what you should be spending your money on.
Which country?

La-dee-freaking dah. Every signle country on Earth does it when it needs to. Yes Fass, even your beloved, pure land of milk, honey and sunshine faires Sweden does it. So America got caught. That's like an entire classroom of teenagers being pissed off and upset when one person gets caught texting in class.

Oh boy.

First of all, feel free to give examples, POST-VIKING-ERA, of Sweden acting like that. Hell, give examples of Brazil as a democracy and other countries doing that, too.

Second of all, no, it doesn't matter.

Third of all, unless people are tortured by texting, poor analogy.

Do I get a patch or something?

Can I have a little ribbon and an American Flag?

Bet there are pardons on this one.

>.>

*Patches BfC up*

NO!

And... Mmmmaybe.

La-dee-freaking dah. Every signle country on Earth does it when it needs to. Yes Fass, even your beloved, pure land of milk, honey and sunshine faires Sweden does it. So America got caught. That's like an entire classroom of teenagers being pissed off and upset when one person gets caught texting in class.

Evidence please to back up this claim

Oh boy.

First of all, feel free to give examples, POST-VIKING-ERA, of Sweden acting like that.

Second of all, no, it doesn't matter.

Third of all, unless people are tortured by texting, poor analogy.

Ok, First, like I said everybody does it, we just got caught.
Second, Yes, it doesn't matter.
Third, that's not my analogy. My analogy was that why be mad at the one that gets caught texting, when everyone is doing it to.

Ok, First, like I said everybody does it, we just got caught.


Switzerland isn't torturing or invading anyone right now. Nor, to my knowledge, are many other countries.

Our allies knew we were doing it to. Now they know for sure. Balls in your court. If you really care about this, and really are appalled, give at least the person who just admitted it summons to the Hague.

Otherwise, any governments outrage over this is faked and merely for publicity.
"It's not our fault we tortured people, it's your fault for not stopping us"?



And Fass would be the New Mittani of Sweden, I garan-fucking-tee it.
Ah, I see. You just don't want to agree with Fass.
Not to mention that other than Portugal, no country appears willing to take the inmates into their own countries.

Sending them to their home countries would be a death sentence in most cases, so some other country needs to step up and take them.

I suggest we send them all to Sweden, to live in government-paid housing in Fass' neighborhood, where they can become Swedish citizens and learn to live the Swedish way with Fass.
You, on the other hand, I could actually believe you're trying to draw attention away from America's blatant disregard for human life and dignity by trying to criticise the rest of the world for not stopping it.
And what jurisdiction does the ICC have over American citizens commiting war crimes in Cuba?
On American soil in Cuba, no?
You know, I think that I, you, and many other people across the whole world who just like you and me told these things for the last 8 years and got called "anti-american", "friends and supporters of terrorists", "haters of democracy", "pacifist sissies", "ideologically-driven liars" etc for telling the truth deserve APOLOGIES from the governments of the USA and of its staunchest allies, like Blair's and Berlusconi's cabinets.
Oh my yes.
La-dee-freaking dah. Every signle country on Earth does it when it needs to. Yes Fass, even your beloved, pure land of milk, honey and sunshine faires Sweden does it. So America got caught. That's like an entire classroom of teenagers being pissed off and upset when one person gets caught texting in class.

Bollocks. For one, you go right ahead and try to prove your claims, and for another you go right ahead and try to explain how it's ok to torture people if everyone else is doing it.

Ok, First, like I said everybody does it, we just got caught.

PLEASE tell me you're not trying to outsmart ME with the "Oh, we don't have evidence because people didn't get caught, but people do, trust me" routine. You should know I'm smarter than that and I really hope you are as well.

Ok, First, like I said everybody does it, we just got caught.
Second, Yes, it doesn't matter.
Third, that's not my analogy. My analogy was that why be mad at the one that gets caught texting, when everyone is doing it to.

Maybe, just maybe, because everyone isn't doing it.

"It's not our fault we tortured people, it's your fault for not stopping us"?
Even worse. Continuing the texting analogy, it's "we got caught because you called the teacher you filthy spy!".


Ah, I see. You just don't want to agree with Fass.
Thou shalt take thy Holy Fass of Antioch and, having the count of the third post being reached, thou shalt agree with him, or else be called naughty in my sight. ;)


try to explain how it's ok to torture people if everyone else is doing it.
... because it's democracy! The majority of the countries tortures HENCE torture is democratically approved! :rolleyes:

Maybe, just maybe, because everyone isn't doing it.

Besides, not only do we KNOW the US is doing it, WE AS INDIVIDUALS have the right to outrage at the torture we KNOW is happening, even ASSUMING "our countries" are doing it too; whoever isn't torturing or supporting torture has every right to outrage at torture, and that works with individuals.

Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

It's in Corsico, near Milan, Italy. In the secret underground level of the local IKEA store.

Besides, not only do we KNOW the US is doing it, WE AS INDIVIDUALS have the right to outrage at the torture we KNOW is happening, even ASSUMING "our countries" are doing it too; whoever isn't torturing or supporting torture has every right to outrage at torture, and that works with individuals.

Only too true, old chap. Only too true.

Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

If I ever had a band, I would name us that.

Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadso

...I actually picked out one of the cities I remember from my bout with the Vikings as the Mongols in Civ III Conquests, sorta at random... But it works fairly well, as it's outside Sweden but near it.

Besides, not only do we KNOW the US is doing it, WE AS INDIVIDUALS have the right to outrage at the torture we KNOW is happening, even ASSUMING "our countries" are doing it too; whoever isn't torturing or supporting torture has every right to outrage at torture, and that works with individuals.
If our outrage can be dismissed on the grounds that our countries didn't stop the abuse, all American posters can be jailed for their country's orchestration and execution of the abuse.
Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

All those IKEA stores around the world, could be anywhere.

First, whether or not any other countries or governments are guilty of similar abuses or complicit in US human rights abuses is wholly irrelevant to the fact that US human rights abuses have occurred and are reprehensible.

Second, this "my nation is better than your nation" stuff is stupid. It is true that most countries, including Sweden, don't have entirely clean hands. See, e.g., link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/001/2006/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR01/012/2008/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/006/2008/en).

Rather than turn the question of universal human rights into some sort of nationalistic grudge-match, perhaps we should (1) condemn the US violations admitted by US officials in the OP article, (2) try to make sure no country commits such violations again, and (3) also fight against other kinds of violations.

EDIT: Let us also celebrate that Gitmo is soon to be closed down.

Yeah 1010102, perhaps you can tell me where the Swedish Guantanamo is?

If I tell you, they'll waterboard me with swedish meatball gravy.

If our outrage can be dismissed on the grounds that our countries didn't stop the abuse, all American posters can be jailed for their country's orchestration and execution of the abuse.

Also true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadso

...I actually picked out one of the cities I remember from my bout with the Vikings as the Mongols in Civ III Conquests, sorta at random... But it works fairly well, as it's outside Sweden but near it.

Hmm...


The most well known citizen is Morten Gamst Pedersen, a left-midfield soccer player playing for the Blackburn Rovers F.C. in the English Premier League. He also plays for the Norwegian Football Club.

Norway is involved too, I see.

It's in Corsico, near Milan, Italy. In the secret underground level of the local IKEA store.

IKEA? Don't make me laugh. One of your Scandinavianist friends already cracked. Now tell us which foreigners conspired to drag IKEA's name through the mud. Did they have a British accent? How many were there?

First, whether or not any other countries or governments are guilty of similar abuses or complicit in US human rights abuses is wholly irrelevant to the fact that US human rights abuses have occurred and are reprehensible.

Second, this "my nation is better than your nation" stuff is stupid. It is true that most countries, including Sweden, don't have entirely clean hands. See, e.g., link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/001/2006/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR01/012/2008/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/006/2008/en).

Rather than turn the question of universal human rights into some sort of nationalistic grudge-match, perhaps we should (1) condemn the US violations admitted by US officials in the OP article, (2) try to make sure no country commits such violations again, and (3) also fight against other kinds of violations.

Reasonability has no place here. Have a taco instead. *hands you a taco*

First, whether or not any other countries or governments are guilty of similar abuses or complicit in US human rights abuses is wholly irrelevant to the fact that US human rights abuses have occurred and are reprehensible.

Second, this "my nation is better than your nation" stuff is stupid. It is true that most countries, including Sweden, don't have entirely clean hands. See, e.g., link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/001/2006/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR01/012/2008/en), link (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR42/006/2008/en).

Rather than turn the question of universal human rights into some sort of nationalistic grudge-match, perhaps we should (1) condemn the US violations admitted by US officials in the OP article, (2) try to make sure no country commits such violations again, and (3) also fight against other kinds of violations.

Part of it might be that the US, in its posture as a world leader, has frequently and roundly decried human rights abuses in other countries (which is fine in and of itself), but done in such a way as to imply that the US is morally superior.

Some of this might just be crowing over that kind of thing.

On American soil in Cuba, no?

Debatable, but surely under American jurisdiction ;)

Reasonability has no place here. Have a taco instead. *hands you a taco*

*enjoys taco while muttering to myself about nationalism*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadso

...I actually picked out one of the cities I remember from my bout with the Vikings as the Mongols in Civ III Conquests, sorta at random... But it works fairly well, as it's outside Sweden but near it.

Vadsø??? Try Svalbard!

Part of it might be that the US, in its posture as a world leader, has frequently and roundly decried human rights abuses in other countries (which is fine in and of itself), but done in such a way as to imply that the US is morally superior.

Some of this might just be crowing over that kind of thing.

The tendency of the US to imply (if not outright say) it is morally superior while covering its own flaws is definitely annoying and provokes this type of response.

That said, talking about the US as if it were inherently morally inferior to most other nations while ignoring its strengths is pretty close to equally annoying -- and invites a certain backlash from those of us not willing to simply cower in the corner as the reprobates all Americans are.

The tendency of the US to imply (if not outright say) it is morally superior while covering its own flaws is definitely annoying and provokes this type of response.

That's all I meant.


That said, talking about the US as if it were inherently morally inferior to most other nations while ignoring its strengths is pretty close to equally annoying -- and invites a certain backlash from those of us not willing to simply cower in the corner as the reprobates all Americans are.

Maybe that's the risk intrinsic to monolithic ideas like "nations", because we aren't, can't be, and shouldn't be so homogenous, yet criticism comes on a broad brush for a our national policies and actions.

I hope that the recent elections transmits to our fellow nations that we weren't cool with this, not all of us.

Shit, if I remember right, even Justice Scalia once voiced that some of this "secret tribunal" crap didn't live up to the constitution.

1.Only real superpower? Who?
I'm not going to go for it that easily, I'll give you three choices: Colombia, Costa Rica or Tibet.

2.Comfy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_Operation_Enduring_Freedom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force
How does that prove anything, beyond listing a tiny participation in a conflict with the country that you (Well, the people I'm supposed to be arguing against) hate so much? Have a look beetween the lines at why the countries did participate aswell, a little bit of logic goes a long way. Beyond that, two UN peacekeeping efforts? Oh my, that's a war that should be mentioned. Just accept it, Europe is just as selfcentered as the Eagle is, and just as eager to point fingers. But unlike the Eagle we have no cohones to back up our claims with. So we form the UN and bitch and whine which in the end will lead to nothing if the only ones who would ever be willing to act upon it are the ones who "we" despise so much.

3.When was the last time the US came to the help of Europe?
I'm not your history teacher.


Which country?
Sweden

Or you CLAIM not to be from the US in an attempt to garner credibility to a post that made no points whatsoever, as if your country of origin mattered on the fact that your post made no points whatsoever.
You saying that I have no points is not a point. GG.

I should probably point out that I'm not arguing FOR the US (I don't really care, I'm sitting in my comfy chair in a Neutral country with a pathetic military), simply against the incredibly annoying moaning. And now it's not enough that we've been listening to the "Waaah I wear a socialist revolution t-shirt because the previous generation (Parents) tried to hold me down, hate the US hate hate hate"-bitching, now we're going to see a revival of the "Palestinians sends rockets into Israel, is it okey because it is revenge and they're not on the US side"-debate spark up again. Oh I'm so looking forward to hearing about that. F'n annoying generation to grow up with TBH, I wish I was a godhating communist or a the beloved crusader of god during the Cold War, everything was so much more simple back then. No bitching, all fear mongering and quality propaganda.

You saying that I have no points is not a point. GG.

It is when you have, indeed, none other than bleating "US-HATERZ!!!1!!ONE".

Vadsø??? Try Svalbard!

Damn those panserbørne!

So that somehow makes Sweden just as guilty because they let you use their airspace (though of course using your piss-poor excuse for an argument maybe there was some Swedish party "lets allow those torturing American bastards land at one of our airports" or maybe it was just the people at the top)?

I dont think you got my point.

Do you find it so hard to admit that the US was at fault, that you somehow have to project the blame on to other people?

Hmmm, did you see my first post? You know, where I said that this doesnt suprise me? And Ive been, for the past year or so, encouraging an hoping for Bush and his clowns to be tried as war criminals?

So...your point that I find it hard to admit the US is at fault is pure, fucking, bullshit.

I merely am pointing out that no European government cares nearly as much as they pretend to, and not nearly as much as their citizens think they do. Why? Because they would do the exact same thing, some of them have, and Im sure some of them will.

Second, this "my nation is better than your nation" stuff is stupid.

Lets not kid ourselves. Thats all this is to some people, both American and not. People seem to be mistaking my pointing this out for American flag waving, convenietly forgeting that Ive been calling for Bush's head to roll for the whole time Ive been on NSG.

Lets not kid ourselves. Thats all this is to some people, both American and not. People seem to be mistaking my pointing this out for American flag waving, convenietly forgeting that Ive been calling for Bush's head to roll for the whole time Ive been on NSG.Since when does supporting America = supporting its governmental policies? What the fuck, people?

Are we not allowed to like the country we live in, but disagree with its government at the same time? :rolleyes:

(I know that's not what you're saying, KoL, but your point about Bush reminded me of this odd assumption that some people make about people who support their country.)

Going back to Qahtani, they may never be able to prosecute him because of the torture.

News story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090115/wl_afp/usattacksguantanamotorture)

I'm too sleepy to insert proper sarcasm here. Sorry.

What everyone knew (and got called "anti-USA" for as if it were somehow something bad or somehow made facts false) is now completely undeniable by those who would like to pretend otherwise: The USA is a human rights abuser, that tortures people, used such torture at Guantanamo Bay, and still denies these people a legal remedy. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html?hpid=topnews)


On reflection, this is pretty funny. Are you denying you are anti-USA, Fass?
If not, why complain that you've been so labeled?

Since when does supporting America = supporting its governmental policies? What the fuck, people?

Are we not allowed to like the country we live in, but disagree with its government at the same time? :rolleyes:

(I know that's not what you're saying, KoL, but your point about Bush reminded me of this odd assumption that some people make about people who support their country.)

Clearly you have not yet plugged into the hivemind.

I'm not going to go for it that easily, I'll give you three choices: Colombia, Costa Rica or Tibet.

How does that prove anything, beyond listing a tiny participation in a conflict with the country that you (Well, the people I'm supposed to be arguing against) hate so much?
That european countries haven't a "comfy" pacifist attitude overall.

...two UN peacekeeping efforts? Oh my, that's a war that should be mentioned. Just accept it, Europe is just as selfcentered as the Eagle is, and just as eager to point fingers. But unlike the Eagle we have no cohones to back up our claims with. So we form the UN and bitch and whine which in the end will lead to nothing if the only ones who would ever be willing to act upon it are the ones who "we" despise so much.

I'm not your history teacher.

Clearly, you're no history teacher AT ALL. You're claiming that the UN was made by Europe. It was not. It was created by the US (guess why the UN HQ are in the US).
KFOR exists because the DIRECT INVOLVEMENT of the european countries in the war against Yugoslavia.
UNIFIL 2 is the only thing that stopped another war between Israel and Lebanon. I think that there are more cojones needed (not "cohones", use a bloody dictionary!) in acting as a small peacekeeping force between two warring countries, than taking it out with what the warlords at the Pentagon like to call "asymmetrical war" (that is, we single out a weak adversary and bomb it back into the Stone Age).

Anyway, I agree that EU should show some balls, like France and Germany did with the invasion of Iraq, and tell the US militarists to fuck off.

F'n annoying generation to grow up with TBH, I wish I was a godhating communist or a the beloved crusader of god during the Cold War
Your comment about the two sides of the Cold War is quite a tell-tale; I notice that you're saying that you don't have the balls to pursue your own ideals, not unless the general political situation gives you a cover-up of sorts.

I dont think you got my point.


Possibly I didn't, it was last thing at night when I was posting.

I think what you are saying is that the people of the US are not behind the abuse, it is the Bush administration. I kind of agree with this; although I do think that in a democracy the people have somewhat more responsibility for the actions of the administration they elected, whereas perhaps the people of North Korea have less responsibility for the actions of Kim Jong-il.

That european countries haven't a "comfy" pacifist attitude overall.
I would disagree.

Clearly, you're no history teacher AT ALL. You're claiming that the UN was made by Europe. It was not. It was created by the US (guess why the UN HQ are in the US).
Well the Allies created it, not the US or the EU alone. But that was not what I meant anyways, feel free to replace the word "form" with "attend".

KFOR exists because the DIRECT INVOLVEMENT of the european countries in the war against Yugoslavia.
European countries huh? Not NATO forces led by the US? Assuming that you are talking about the Kosovo war ofcourse.

UNIFIL 2 is the only thing that stopped another war between Israel and Lebanon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

Anyway, I agree that EU should show some balls, like France and Germany did with the invasion of Iraq, and tell the US militarists to fuck off.
Yes and no. We do enough of that second part, it's getting annoying.


Your comment about the two sides of the Cold War is quite a tell-tale; I notice that you're saying that you don't have the balls to pursue your own ideals, not unless the general political situation gives you a cover-up of sorts.
What? How did you come to that conclusion?

Well the Allies created it, not the US or the EU alone.
The EU creating it - that would have been highly unlikely, you know.

European countries huh? Not NATO forces led by the US? Assuming that you are talking about the Kosovo war ofcourse.
NATO isn't "led by the US", as per the North Atlantic Treaty text. Mind you, the US wouldn't have been able to do aught without the green light from the EU NATO countries.

Also, compare the NATO committment to mutual defence in Europe with the WEU committment (USA isn't in WEU). www.nato.int , www.weu.int . To summarise, the US aren't rushing to help Europe, except if they really feel like it.


What? How did you come to that conclusion?Just a wild intuitive guess.

The EU creating it - that would have been highly unlikely, you know.
What can I say? I was tired.

NATO isn't "led by the US", as per the North Atlantic Treaty text.
I didn't say that.
Mind you, the US wouldn't have been able to do aught without the green light from the EU NATO countries.
Which is sort of my point, they could if they really wanted to. "Oh you're not agreeing to the rules of the treaty, but if we force you to leave NATO we lose the only military power that NATO actually has! Oh the tragedy, lets drink some tea." What are we going to do? Sanction them? That'll be great for the economy. We rely on them, yet we bitch and moan at them every chance we get.

Also, compare the NATO committment to mutual defence in Europe with the WEU committment (USA isn't in WEU). www.nato.int , www.weu.int . To summarise, the US aren't rushing to help Europe, except if they really feel like it.
So you're saying that a foreign entity is less likely to help us than we are to help ourselves. Big surprise. We're still afraid of doing anything but that.


Just a wild intuitive guess.
Don't quit your dayjob. Unless it involves wild intuitive guessing.

I think what you are saying is that the people of the US are not behind the abuse, it is the Bush administration. I kind of agree with this; although I do think that in a democracy the people have somewhat more responsibility for the actions of the administration they elected, whereas perhaps the people of North Korea have less responsibility for the actions of Kim Jong-il.

I would agree. For example, if he is not held accountable, I would seriously reconsider voting for whoever let him off.

I merely am pointing out that no European government cares nearly as much as they pretend to, and not nearly as much as their citizens think they do. Why? Because they would do the exact same thing, some of them have, and Im sure some of them will.
So why are you dodging my question? Don't you want to actually support your point? Go on. Show me where European governments can press charges. Show me a court with jurisdiction that they can use.

If you want to make that point, you have to make it properly, not half-heartedly.