NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm sure this is a topic much discussed, but it doesn't seem to have been around recently, so why not have another stab?

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What qualifies a substance for being illegal? Is it potential lethality? Massive bodily harm? Potential to do damage unto others?

If anyone is familiar with the reasoning behind banning particular substances while not others, I'd be very interested to find out.

In particular, this (http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2009/01/12/Campus/Controversial.Salvia.Banned.In.Ohio-3583289.shtml).

What I'm getting is that because someone under the influence of salvia killed their friend, salvia is now illegal in Ohio. I also remember reading a similar story in which a boy with mental problems killed himself on salvia, or something to that extent. But if someone dying/killing others is the basis for illegality, then why isn't alcohol/cigarettes banned yet? As I'm sure most know, both alcohol and tobacco (+ tar) can do quite a deal of damage to one's body, eventually leading to an early death. Particularly in the case of alcohol, the loss of control can be lethal (see DUI). And even for smoking, it is arguable that it adversely affects the lives of those around you (though I would think that this is a rather minor effect as long as the exposure isn't too great).

Functionally, a lot of other drugs are illegal but are less/around as harmful as alcohol. So why is it that society shuns these chemicals, yet endorses others? And far more importantly, why does the law follow society in this regard when it seems to lack any logical support.

I would have to say, Tradition.
Those substances that are still legal,
have been used amongst people freely throughout history.

While those that have been used secretly or have recently been made,
are shunned because they are not only damaging,
but also relatively unknown.

Alcohol and tobacco have multi-million dollar industries to lobby on their behalf. I'm sure if they could be banned there'd be people happy about it, but it'll never happen. And I bet the more pragmatic people in governments everywhere see the advantage of legalising and taxing other drugs, but there isn't enough political will to go up against all the anti-drug lobbyists.

*hides drug dartboard*

It's complicated. Now take your anti-depressants.

I would have to say, Tradition.
Those substances that are still legal,
have been used amongst people freely throughout history.

While those that have been used secretly or have recently been made,
are shunned because they are not only damaging,
but also relatively unknown.

I assumed as much. But these are social beliefs, which are not part (or at least shouldn't be part) of how a good law is made. If we are to shun harmful substances, there are quite a few things sold to us as "medicine" that we would need to make illegal.

Alcohol and tobacco have multi-million dollar industries to lobby on their behalf. I'm sure if they could be banned there'd be people happy about it, but it'll never happen. And I bet the more pragmatic people in governments everywhere see the advantage of legalising and taxing other drugs, but there isn't enough political will to go up against all the anti-drug lobbyists.

Yeah, I guess I kind of see this as a problem. And I guess the people that support legalization aren't really as passionate as those on the other side, so for politicians they can afford to ignore the issue for the most part and still get elected, while a legalization platform may get them a lot of "unwanted" political attention. Though really, I think if people organized we could get a much more sensible drug policy enacted.

The father of the girl who likes to have sex with random strangers while on weed runs for office and bans weed.

In short, the Ignorant Tight-ass Club goes after those drugs they don't like. Then they have a few drinks to celebrate. Gotta love good old American hypocrisy.

The father of the girl who likes to have sex with random strangers while on weed runs for office and bans weed.

In short, the Ignorant Tight-ass Club goes after those drugs they don't like. Then they have a few drinks from the bottle of scotch they keep stashed in their desk to celebrate. Gotta love good old American hypocrisy.

Fixed.

Salvia Divinorum is power, potent stuff.

It affects people differently and you'd be foolish to assume that it's anything like Cannabis. The only thing it has in common with Cannabis is that it's a plant, which you smoke. The results is completely different. The high is different in each person; it has varying lengths. It can be a positive experience or someone can massively freak out. The fact that someone committed suicide while tripping on Salvia doesn't surprise me given what I know about it.

If you want, here's a blog entry about someone's experience with Salvia. The entry talks about two different experiences from two different people who tried it at the same time. The second link is the follow up to that experience.

Salvia Nos (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/02/salvia-nos/)
Diviner's Sorrow (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/03/diviners-sorrow/)

This is to show that it impacts on everyone differently and that when judging the nature of drugs we shouldn't assume that everyone will have the same experience. We shouldn't make a drug illegal because a person has died. Yes, people should be free to experiment; be given truthful knowledge about drugs so they can decide legitimately for themselves if they want to try it.

Fixed.

Of course, how could I have missed that? Thank you.

This man has decided all US drug policy for the past 150 years.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Fiddlebottoms/01_06_11---Chicken_web.jpg
Sure, he looks like a rooster, but he totally isn't. And, sure, his appearance changes every few years, but that is totally intentional. And, correct, he does announce his reasoned opinions by wandering around on a diagram of different drugs and pecking at which ever ones are going to be legal, but that is just his preferred way of expressing himself.
You just don't understand drug policy and all the reasoning that goes into it, that's all. You're crazy if you disagree. Worse than crazy, your probably wacked out on illegal substances, what do you think Mr. Behrd?

IMHO, the drugs should all be legal. If you commit a crime against the person or property of another while under the influence of a drug, you face a stiffer penalty.

Drugs that alter your reality and do not make money for Alcohol Tobacco are illegal. If they alter your reality but have so many beneficial qualities and have been used for so long that there's no possible way to even begin justifying making them illegal (morphine, codeine, etc.) they're scheduled.

Salvia Divinorum is power, potent stuff.

It affects people differently and you'd be foolish to assume that it's anything like Cannabis. The only thing it has in common with Cannabis is that it's a plant, which you smoke. The results is completely different. The high is different in each person; it has varying lengths. It can be a positive experience or someone can massively freak out. The fact that someone committed suicide while tripping on Salvia doesn't surprise me given what I know about it.

If you want, here's a blog entry about someone's experience with Salvia. The entry talks about two different experiences from two different people who tried it at the same time. The second link is the follow up to that experience.

Salvia Nos (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/02/salvia-nos/)
Diviner's Sorrow (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/03/diviners-sorrow/)

This is to show that it impacts on everyone differently and that when judging the nature of drugs we shouldn't assume that everyone will have the same experience. We shouldn't make a drug illegal because a person has died. Yes, people should be free to experiment; be given truthful knowledge about drugs so they can decide legitimately for themselves if they want to try it.

/agree

Salvia and all hallucinogens need to be regulated.
Id say 75% of the population is not able to handle them. (give most of the 75% also tend to shy away from them).

for pot and other light drugs id regulate like alcohol taxes and stiff penalties for driving under the influence.

hallucinogens I would require a license that requires a class in order to legally purchase/use them. Someone using without a license they should go after the one who got it for them.

I tried salvia before and didn't get any of the psychoactive effects. At I wasn't the one who paid for it that time.

I tried salvia before and didn't get any of the psychoactive effects. At I wasn't the one who paid for it that time.

salvia is kinda tricky. lots of difference between the quality of leaves. some people get the effects from the leaves others need the extract.

best hit is use a butane lighter and water pipe.

Salvia Divinorum is power, potent stuff.

It affects people differently and you'd be foolish to assume that it's anything like Cannabis. The only thing it has in common with Cannabis is that it's a plant, which you smoke. The results is completely different. The high is different in each person; it has varying lengths. It can be a positive experience or someone can massively freak out. The fact that someone committed suicide while tripping on Salvia doesn't surprise me given what I know about it.

If you want, here's a blog entry about someone's experience with Salvia. The entry talks about two different experiences from two different people who tried it at the same time. The second link is the follow up to that experience.

Salvia Nos (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/02/salvia-nos/)
Diviner's Sorrow (http://blog.demodulated.com/2007/01/03/diviners-sorrow/)

This is to show that it impacts on everyone differently and that when judging the nature of drugs we shouldn't assume that everyone will have the same experience. We shouldn't make a drug illegal because a person has died. Yes, people should be free to experiment; be given truthful knowledge about drugs so they can decide legitimately for themselves if they want to try it.

I never suggested that it was similar to cannabis and I'm familiar with salvia's effects.

And I guess I might mention that I'm not trying to limit the conversation of salvia. Rather, I was pointing out an instance in which I saw no reason for banning a particular substance, because by the very logic of the ban, alcohol and tobacco should have been made illegal along time ago. I'm all for people doing what they want, but doing so intelligently and with information. Salvia in particular I know is a drug that is probably best done with several people (that aren't messed up at the time), and it's also a drug that doesn't necessarily have positive/fun side effects.

I think the difficulty comes in where do you draw the line. There are some that are just devastating Crack, PCP, heroine, Crystal Meth. Any of these mean a short life span. Once You get hooked you will, steal, prostitute yourself for another hit.

There many that are pretty much harmless but once you open the floodgates. Taxing them and regulating the manner in which they are used would go along way.


Okay just for starters if you use Pot in the privacy of your own home I am okay with it.

If you must be outside you need to take a taxi, no driving what so ever..

If you must be outside you need to take a taxi, no driving what so ever..

Just like being under the influence of alcohol, so there's no real reason to treat them differently on that side.

What qualifies a substance for being illegal?

the whim of lawmakers and the economic interests that finance their campaigns.

Taboo.

See: absinthe

There is no basis. The system has no reason.

It's complicated. Now take your anti-depressants.

But I don't wanna take anti-depressants, I wanna have some pro-depressants!

Ones whose names begin with a vowel should be legal and those that begin with a consonant should be illegal.

Ones whose names begin with a vowel should be legal and those that begin with a consonant should be illegal.

Annabis anyone?

Annabis anyone?

Damn you spotted the flaw in my plan...

I never suggested that it was similar to cannabis and I'm familiar with salvia's effects.

Not everyone is familiar with Salvia, so I thought I'd mention the difference, since there is a tendency amongst those generally opposed to all classes of narcotics to assume that all narcotics have the same affect and are mind-numbingly addictive to the point where someone who tries it even one will be a hopeless addict driven by a life of crime in order to get a fix.

I know your intent wasn't to limit the discussion, but I've seen the basic drug discussion around here and I wanted to talk more about a substance that is actually legal in Canada. You can easily buy Salvia in Canada, it hasn't been listed as illegal in The Controlled Drug and Substances Act.

Ones whose names begin with a vowel should be legal and those that begin with a consonant should be illegal.

Acid?

The reasoning behind the illegalization of drugs is because those with money and power were either convinced by others with money and power to make the drugs illegal, for racist reasons, or because they weren't the ones using them.

Proof of money and power convincing government:
Marijuana was made illegal in the United States when someone discovered a way to use the hemp plant to make paper, the lumber companies were afraid they would loose money since hemp paper was cheaper to make then classic wood paper so they convinced Congress to pass a law that made marijuana illegal.

Proof of racism convincing people:
Opium, and all opiates (known commonly as narcotics in US legalese) were made illegal after Chinese immigrants came to the United States; rumors were propagated that these immigrants would kidnap white women, rape them, and then give them opium to make them their sex slaves. Congress believed this and passed suitable laws in the hopes of preventing this.
I should also note that I have only ever seen evidence in RL of white people doing just what was described as above.

Edit: http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html this is about the illegalization of marijuana. It does not give much detail to the reason I gave but it is sufficient evidence to prove that the drug was indeed made illegal because of greed, racism, and some of the other more endearing human traits.