NationStates Jolt Archive

Having bought and played through the new addition the Call of Duty series, World at War, I was faced with thoughts that bothered me enough to write an email to Activision's customer service.


To whom it may concern:

I have to say that you have created one of the most, if not the most, unique games I have ever played. World at War featured amazing graphics and challenging game play, but that is not where the uniqueness lies. It is unique in that it is the first game that has ever seriously placed me in a moral quandary about why I play video games or if I should ever play that particular game again.

First a little background about me to understand my point of view. I’m a college senior, six hours away from a degree in archeology. I’m the son of long serving Air Force officer and grandson of another Air Force officer and of an Army Air Corps Sergeant who manned the top turret on a B-24 performing submarine patrols off California in World War Two. Understandably, I have a great interest in military history and World War Two in particular. I am a long time fan of the Call of Duty series, ever since the original game, and found particular connection with Call of Duty 2 because of the B-17 mission and the Point du Hoc assault, because of my grandfather’s service and the fact he barely avoided being assigned to the Rangers that went up Point du Hoc only because he enlisted on a different day than the rest of his high school class.

I got World at War as a Christmas present, and the opportunity to play a well-done game focusing on the Pacific theater was exciting. I played through it and found it to be very intense, but at the end I was confronted by thoughts provoked by the game. I saw during the prologue that you emphasized the cost of the war. Eight million dead and that it was the most destructive war in human existence.

I recognize that. I understand that. It was already something I knew, but when I looked back at the game…I started doubting its replay value. The Soviet campaign was rough, visceral. As a student of history, I know the deep hatred that the Germans and Russians had, and really still have, for each other. Atrocities were rife on both sides. I was uncomfortable with seeing it and even being encouraged to take part. Particularly when it seemed I could not enter the Berlin Metro without massacring surrendering Germans. I later found out I could be merciful, but it was not clear how to do so.

During the Marine campaign, the nature of fire became all too real and discomforting. You seem to have discovered fire and paraded it around proudly like Tom Hanks in Cast Away, and I’ll admit for the first few dozen times I hit Japanese soldiers with a flamethrower to stop a banzai charge or used Molotov cocktails flush out a German machine gun nest were gratifying. However the vivid burning death throes and horridly accurate burned corpse models ended any gratification quickly.

I will never speak against the Marines that fought tooth and nail, bleeding on those coral atolls. Faced with a fundamental cultural difference in the expectations of soldiers and the acceptability of surrender and the rules of war, the Marines had an ugly task before them and a grim outlook for survival. Because of the Japanese’s ‘dirty tricks’ by Western standards, the Marines were forced to be almost as ruthless as their opponents. I thank you for not including any instance of the Marines simply shooting the Japanese instead of taking them prisoner. I know it happened, and I know the reasons behind those actions. The Japanese often would fake a surrender in order to bring Marines out of cover and in range of ambush or a grenade hidden under an armpit perhaps. Again I will never speak against those Marines, because I have not lived in that hell and stress, but I could not replicate that action in a game.

Perhaps that was your reasoning, to curb the instant gratification and desensitization of violence present in war or first person shooter games. It did for me, but I’m afraid it won’t work for my peers, who wear Che Guevara shirts…even though they are that which he hated…and revere villains such as Tony Montana from Scarface and numerous gangsta rappers who represent and promote an anarchist culture of crime, debauchery, and drugs.

So personally, I’m faced with an expierence that is very much a vivid and accurate 'docu-game' of the more horrifying aspects of the Second World War. Sure, there is a mitigating bright light in the Black Cat mission, where you do heroic good amongst the carnage by purposefully saving lives. On the whole though, it feels like I have been dragged through the mud. While enlightening, I am hard pressed to consider playing it again. I may only play the Black Cat mission again, or make a point to show mercy to every German, or drop the flamethrower at the first opportunity and never use Molotov cocktails.

Mostly I feel disturbed and bothered by the game. I am student of history and its analysis, sir or madam. I play games like Call of Duty for the challenge and the escapism. I know the hell and reality of war from the stories of my father and grandfathers and from my studies as well. When I play a video game, I don’t wish to be confronted with that hell and reality.

The gamer in me recognizes that you will make a great deal of profit from this game, and I hope you do. However, the archeologist in me, the historic social scientist, is afraid what my peers will do and think and what that means for as a culture. The archeologist fears that they will miss the message I hope you were trying to convey and only think that it is ‘cool’ and ‘acceptable’ to kill wounded soldiers and take pleasure in burning men alive. That part of my moral quandary is resolved…I can bring myself shoot a man, blow him to shreds, stab him if necessary in the defense of myself, others and that which I hold dear…but I can’t bring myself to burn him. That is too gruesome, horrifying, and slow a death. One quandary is resolved.

However, my moral quandary about World at War still remains.

By posting my beared feelings and reactions, I fully open myself to whatever criticisms of, what is to me, a pretty raw and sensitive subject. However, I hope that it might provoke some thought. I'm not amongst the crowd that advocates rolling over violent games with steamrollers or utterly boycotting game studios. I just wanted to bring persepective hopefully towards moderation.

You've just convinced me I need to play this game. Nihilism will save me from the moral quandary you've faced. Time to burn stuff.

You've just convinced me I need to play this game. Nihilism will save me from the moral quandary you've faced. Time to burn stuff.

Thats what I was thinking...But I just didnt want to say it, lol...

Idk, problem ive always had with CoD is that I want to play the other side, whats the fun of playing a Historical game if I cant change history?

What's wrong with you? You can't burn somebody, but you can kill them any other way? Also, in the metro part, the only way to be merciful is to shoot the German soldiers. If you don't, they get immolated by about 20 Molotovs.

Wait...you played a war game...and are bothered that its too realistic? You would have prefered another one of those "war is teh glorious adventure lolz!" games that have been oh so popular?

Really? I mean...really?

Im going to ignore the whole bit about "I guess I understand why you showed how awful the Russians are but am oh so glad you let the Marines be glorified!!11!", because otherwise I might flame you.

Oh, and youre little bit about the people who wont be bothered by the violence? Idiotic. And do I detect the undertone of racism there?

When I play a video game, I don’t wish to be confronted with that hell and reality.You are playing the wrong game. Go back to Super Mario Bros.

NO I don't think it is that at all. He knows people who have been in war and has their rememberances to tell him that war is NOT some glorious adventure.

But having personal experience with burns, I can say that someone recieving burns of a lethal nature, thats a whole 'nother horse than shooting someone ( and I have experience with that too ) Shoot someone right and they die quick, blow someone up right and they don't even know they are dead, but burns...

I believe in the death penality, and be willing to pull the lever/ push the plunger / flip the switch but I'd Never wish, much less carry out, burning some one to death.

It, I catagorise as Cruel. Cruelty never serves any good purpose.

Also, why is it OK for marines to shoot Japanese people who were surrendering, but the Russians, who'd had entire villages and towns wiped out by Germans, can't shoot people who are surrendering?

Also, why is it OK for marines to shoot Japanese people who were surrendering, but the Russians, who'd had entire villages and towns wiped out by Germans, can't shoot people who are surrendering?

Because its ok when Americans do it! We had good reasons!

Also, why is it OK for marines to shoot Japanese people who were surrendering, but the Russians, who'd had entire villages and towns wiped out by Germans, can't shoot people who are surrendering?

Both were carried out by people driven to a place in the human psyche by horrors incomprehensible to those who have not suffered them.

I think Marines often had questions over whether the Japanese were actually surrendering.

I think Marines often had questions over whether the Japanese were actually surrendering.

Same with the Germans and Russians.

Because its ok when Americans do it! We had good reasons!

Oh sorry! I really should stop questioning things, shouldn't I?

I have moral reservations about killing the zombies with the ray gun and flame thrower in the special mode. I mean, why am I killing only NAZI Zombies? Why not kill communist zombies? USMC Zombies? The call of duty series is obviously racist against Nazi Zombies.

I have moral reservations about killing the zombies with the ray gun and flame thrower in the special mode. I mean, why am I killing only NAZI Zombies? Why not kill communist zombies? USMC Zombies? The call of duty series is obviously racist against Nazi Zombies.

That mode was so much fun. What's the highest level you got to?

That mode was so much fun. What's the highest level you got to?

12. I almost got to 13, but i couldn't get to the perk which killed all the zombies instantly.

-edit-
Then again, I do play that mode about 4 times at least a day

That mode was so much fun. What's the highest level you got to?

Proud level 4 on recruit right here!

why are you harassing those poor customer service staff with your tl;dr?

these are people who just solve game issues they don't get paid to read this

Brogavia, Virginia Cooper - you are both correct in your comments. Both the Nazi's and the Soviets wrought horrors not only on 'others' but upon their own. And the Japanese did at times fake surrendering - those are indisputeable facts. ( I am not certain about the Nazi or Soviets faking surrendering but that well could have happened )

And I know from various comments ( I have never played the game ) that the death sequences are very well done, very realistic.

I'm going to say again, it's not the fact that it's a war game that is bothering Catawaba, BUT that it's realism might well deaden our senses in ways we might not realise, that we ( a general we )might not stop to think about and reason through with our moral or ethical codes active and discerning.

War is a horrible thing- though some times a very necessary thing -but we should never grow to love it, or glory in it.

Unless you're General Patton, in which case its ok to love war.

Unless you're General Patton, in which case its ok to love war.

I heard he made love with war once. When they broke up she took the house and the car. Unfortunately it wasn't that 1938 Cadillac Model 75 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#Accident_and_death).


Too soon?

Oh sorry! I really should stop questioning things, shouldn't I?

Yes. Just believe what they tell you.

Yes. Just believe what they tell you.

Yes sir.

I heard he made love with war once. When they broke up she took the house and the car. Unfortunately it wasn't that 1938 Cadillac Model 75 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#Accident_and_death).


Too soon?

No, that's pretty funny. It is still to soon for Kennedy jokes though. NOT!

Yes sir.

I'm what make America Teh Awesome too.

lol it's a game.

lol it's a game.

WHAT!?! :eek:

THIS WHOLE TIME!!?!

Violence is fun, and you need to lighten up. Embrace your inner psycho!
Just don't embrace him too closely, all that foam around his mouth might get on your shirt. Then you would look a right fool.

lol it's a game.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a192/piggy_g87/manbearpig-al_gore.jpg

But I'm cereal guyz!!! This game is teh bad!!11

Man Bear Pig!!!!! The game.

Man Bear Pig!!!!! The game.

That would be AWESOME!!@! Someone should make that mod for Left4Dead turn all the Zombies into Manbearpigs, itd rule! lol...

That would be AWESOME!!@! Someone should make that mod for Left4Dead turn all the Zombies into Manbearpigs, itd rule! lol...

Omgah genius!!!!

Okay, let me see if I get this right:

The OP played a war game, and it was too much like war, so he sent a letter to the company complaining that they bummed him out because he knows that war is horrific, a true hell on earth, and because of that, when he makes a toy and a game of that hell, he doesn't want to be reminded of just what it is he's playing with?

Is that about it?

Hm...I don't have huge experience with games. Can anyone tell me how many realistically charred corpses you had to pick up in Katamari Damacy? Maybe he should try that game. :rolleyes: My computer came with a marble rolling game that's pretty light on atrocities. Maybe he'd like that one.

That would be AWESOME!!@! Someone should make that mod for Left4Dead turn all the Zombies into Manbearpigs, itd rule! lol...

Let's get to work, then.

My computer came with a marble rolling game that's pretty light on atrocities. Maybe he'd like that one.
You obviously haven't gotten to level 24, where the marble becomes hand grenade that you must roll into a room full of terrified refugees before it explodes.

You obviously haven't gotten to level 24, where the marble becomes hand grenade that you must roll into a room full of terrified refugees before it explodes.

That's what my future service in the Russian Army will look like.

Having bought and played through the new addition the Call of Duty series, World at War, I was faced with thoughts that bothered me enough to write an email to Activision's customer service.


To whom it may concern:

I have to say that you have created one of the most, if not the most, unique games I have ever played. World at War featured amazing graphics and challenging game play, but that is not where the uniqueness lies. It is unique in that it is the first game that has ever seriously placed me in a moral quandary about why I play video games or if I should ever play that particular game again.

First a little background about me to understand my point of view. I’m a college senior, six hours away from a degree in archeology. I’m the son of long serving Air Force officer and grandson of another Air Force officer and of an Army Air Corps Sergeant who manned the top turret on a B-24 performing submarine patrols off California in World War Two. Understandably, I have a great interest in military history and World War Two in particular. I am a long time fan of the Call of Duty series, ever since the original game, and found particular connection with Call of Duty 2 because of the B-17 mission and the Point du Hoc assault, because of my grandfather’s service and the fact he barely avoided being assigned to the Rangers that went up Point du Hoc only because he enlisted on a different day than the rest of his high school class.

I got World at War as a Christmas present, and the opportunity to play a well-done game focusing on the Pacific theater was exciting. I played through it and found it to be very intense, but at the end I was confronted by thoughts provoked by the game. I saw during the prologue that you emphasized the cost of the war. Eight million dead and that it was the most destructive war in human existence.

I recognize that. I understand that. It was already something I knew, but when I looked back at the game…I started doubting its replay value. The Soviet campaign was rough, visceral. As a student of history, I know the deep hatred that the Germans and Russians had, and really still have, for each other. Atrocities were rife on both sides. I was uncomfortable with seeing it and even being encouraged to take part. Particularly when it seemed I could not enter the Berlin Metro without massacring surrendering Germans. I later found out I could be merciful, but it was not clear how to do so.

During the Marine campaign, the nature of fire became all too real and discomforting. You seem to have discovered fire and paraded it around proudly like Tom Hanks in Cast Away, and I’ll admit for the first few dozen times I hit Japanese soldiers with a flamethrower to stop a banzai charge or used Molotov cocktails flush out a German machine gun nest were gratifying. However the vivid burning death throes and horridly accurate burned corpse models ended any gratification quickly.

I will never speak against the Marines that fought tooth and nail, bleeding on those coral atolls. Faced with a fundamental cultural difference in the expectations of soldiers and the acceptability of surrender and the rules of war, the Marines had an ugly task before them and a grim outlook for survival. Because of the Japanese’s ‘dirty tricks’ by Western standards, the Marines were forced to be almost as ruthless as their opponents. I thank you for not including any instance of the Marines simply shooting the Japanese instead of taking them prisoner. I know it happened, and I know the reasons behind those actions. The Japanese often would fake a surrender in order to bring Marines out of cover and in range of ambush or a grenade hidden under an armpit perhaps. Again I will never speak against those Marines, because I have not lived in that hell and stress, but I could not replicate that action in a game.

Perhaps that was your reasoning, to curb the instant gratification and desensitization of violence present in war or first person shooter games. It did for me, but I’m afraid it won’t work for my peers, who wear Che Guevara shirts…even though they are that which he hated…and revere villains such as Tony Montana from Scarface and numerous gangsta rappers who represent and promote an anarchist culture of crime, debauchery, and drugs.

So personally, I’m faced with an expierence that is very much a vivid and accurate 'docu-game' of the more horrifying aspects of the Second World War. Sure, there is a mitigating bright light in the Black Cat mission, where you do heroic good amongst the carnage by purposefully saving lives. On the whole though, it feels like I have been dragged through the mud. While enlightening, I am hard pressed to consider playing it again. I may only play the Black Cat mission again, or make a point to show mercy to every German, or drop the flamethrower at the first opportunity and never use Molotov cocktails.

Mostly I feel disturbed and bothered by the game. I am student of history and its analysis, sir or madam. I play games like Call of Duty for the challenge and the escapism. I know the hell and reality of war from the stories of my father and grandfathers and from my studies as well. When I play a video game, I don’t wish to be confronted with that hell and reality.

The gamer in me recognizes that you will make a great deal of profit from this game, and I hope you do. However, the archeologist in me, the historic social scientist, is afraid what my peers will do and think and what that means for as a culture. The archeologist fears that they will miss the message I hope you were trying to convey and only think that it is ‘cool’ and ‘acceptable’ to kill wounded soldiers and take pleasure in burning men alive. That part of my moral quandary is resolved…I can bring myself shoot a man, blow him to shreds, stab him if necessary in the defense of myself, others and that which I hold dear…but I can’t bring myself to burn him. That is too gruesome, horrifying, and slow a death. One quandary is resolved.

However, my moral quandary about World at War still remains.

By posting my beared feelings and reactions, I fully open myself to whatever criticisms of, what is to me, a pretty raw and sensitive subject. However, I hope that it might provoke some thought. I'm not amongst the crowd that advocates rolling over violent games with steamrollers or utterly boycotting game studios. I just wanted to bring persepective hopefully towards moderation.

"I can't believe you made such a realistic game!!! How horrible!! OW MY EYES@"

GG

Are you having trouble discerning real life from fantasy? You should talk to someone about that instead of writing developers and crying over the fact that they did their job.

I have a question to the OP: Are you Joe Lieberman?

Are you Joe Lieberman?

thats the next Reality show Hit Im sure of it!

thats the next Reality show Hit Im sure of it!

It really wont be hard to guess though. You just look for the right wing moralist masquerading as a centrist in the left leaning party, who is ranting about the evils of video games and how they destroy our children's moral fiber and cause them to commit violent crime.

It really wont be hard to guess though. You just look for the right wing moralist masquerading as a centrist in the left leaning party, who is ranting about the evils of video games and how they destroy our children's moral fiber and cause them to commit violent crime.

Alternatively, look for the back stabbing Jew.

Actually that's like saying look for water in the ocean; both are every where!!



Joking aside, I love Jews.:fluffle:

I discovered the game through one of my kids. I think it is a lot of fun online. Anyone want to send our Xbox online character a friend invite send it to xxPublicEnemyx1. This old guy isnt to bad at it.

It really wont be hard to guess though. You just look for the right wing moralist masquerading as a centrist in the left leaning party, who is ranting about the evils of video games and how they destroy our children's moral fiber and cause them to commit violent crime.

So like, the whole country right? :confused: lol

I discovered the game through one of my kids. I think it is a lot of fun online. Anyone want to send our Xbox online character a friend invite send it to xxPublicEnemyx1. This old guy isnt to bad at it.

Will do! :)

So like, the whole country right? :confused: lol

No, see, the whole country doesnt have the power to make their video game-phobea into law. And they didnt try. Repeatedly.

COD:WAW multiplayer is just a reprising of COD4. And I thought COD4 was better at it, even though the flamethrower is perhaps the baddestass weapon around.

COD:WAW multiplayer is just a reprising of COD4. And I thought COD4 was better at it, even though the flamethrower is perhaps the baddestass weapon around.

I played COD 4 it seemed fairly good too. However in COD 5 has tanks. If anyone knows me I love tanks.

Idk, i'll probably be eaten alive, lol...

But ever since Halo's multiplayer, and Co-Op anything less just pales in comparison...

Idk, i'll probably be eaten alive, lol...

But ever since Halo's multiplayer, and Co-Op anything less just pales in comparison...

Problem with COD 5 is that there is a lot of people cheating and getting under some of the maps. It is a bit annoying to get killed by someone that you can't shoot back at.

That's true. However, you should pick up Call of Duty: United Offensive. Its the expansion pack to the first ever Call of Duty, and it is my absolute favorite one of the series. You not only have tanks and mobile artillery and jeeps and big cannons you can get on, you also can call in an artillery strike wherever you want. Now that's a great game.

That's true. However, you should pick up Call of Duty: United Offensive. Its the expansion pack to the first ever Call of Duty, and it is my absolute favorite one of the series. You not only have tanks and mobile artillery and jeeps and big cannons you can get on, you also can call in an artillery strike wherever you want. Now that's a great game.

My dorm floor freshman year got addicted to that game. We played each other into the wee hours of the morning. :)

What a twatty, twatty message.

I played COD 4 it seemed fairly good too. However in COD 5 has tanks. If anyone knows me I love tanks.

Same, 25 kill streak in a tank FTW.

But I must say COD4 mulitplayer is better in some places and COD:WAW is better in others.

But COD4 single play missions are a lot better and more enjoyable to play than COD:WAW single player missions.

Problem with COD 5 is that there is a lot of people cheating and getting under some of the maps. It is a bit annoying to get killed by someone that you can't shoot back at.

Yeah I've seen that and want to know how they do it. Not to mention I have seen a couple of people floating in the air high up, but I managed to shoot that fucker out of the sky.

Allow me to solve the OP's moral quandary.

The reason the realism takes you in the latest CoD game is that realism in FPS games has been gradually introduced. One step at a time, people are being brought from "Point and Click" to "Kill him! Kill the bastard!". You fear that this is training people to be capable of recreating the events you are witnessing.

In my opinion, recreating the situations of the world wars, in all of their horror, is fundamentally a good thing if it is done well enough as to make people think and evaluate their actions in a particular way. The biggest challenge here is the mind of the average FPS gamer, as those least likely to do so after years of conditioning.

The question is not "Does Call of Duty try to make things real", but rather "Does it make it real enough?" If you can design a game so real that your average counterstrike kid is trained to decline the option of shooting the hostage, a defenseless enemy or one that you could otherwise capture without bloodshed through the sheer shock and disgust at the effects of doing so, even when they have been trained to shoot to kill for years in VR and experienced the sort of immunity to digital image that only Anonymous can unleash on you, then do it, and do it now.

Yeah I've seen that and want to know how they do it. Not to mention I have seen a couple of people floating in the air high up, but I managed to shoot that fucker out of the sky.

Talking of shooting people out of the sky, I was playing COD4 online and this bloke jumps out of the window to commit suicide, and when he was about 3 feet from the ground I shot him through the head lol.

Talking of shooting people out of the sky, I was playing COD4 online and this bloke jumps out of the window to commit suicide, and when he was about 3 feet from the ground I shot him through the head lol.

lol, classic, I love moments like those. All this talk of COD makes me want to go play it now. If anyone one here has a PS3 tell me your gamertag.

I can get where the OP is coming from. It's not a case of "I can't seperate fact from fiction", but more of a case of "is it really right that these events are essentially being trivialised by being released as a computer game for entertainment?".

I do kind of feel like that about WWII games, but then it is sixty-odd years since the war's ending, so it's rapidly becoming beyond living memory.

I played CoD5 (or World at War, or whatever you want to call it). The violence level was definetly more intense than previous installments, but I don't really think it something to be so concerned about as the OP. In the end, its not real; I am not harming any real people, and these polygonal images I am stabbing, shooting, and burning will not suffer or make me feel any remorse. I could go on shooting ficticious Japanese soldiers with a flame thrower for hours. I would never do it to a real live person, but I am not bothered by it in fiction, fiction is fiction and a good game is not about to turn me into a psycho muderer.

BTW, level 15 using only the .45, K98, Trench Gun, and BAR

I played CoD5 (or World at War, or whatever you want to call it). The violence level was definetly more intense than previous installments, but I don't really think it something to be so concerned about as the OP. In the end, its not real; I am not harming any real people, and these polygonal images I am stabbing, shooting, and burning will not suffer or make me feel any remorse. I could go on shooting ficticious Japanese soldiers with a flame thrower for hours. I would never do it to a real live person, but I am not bothered by it in fiction, fiction is fiction and a good game is not about to turn me into a psycho muderer.

BTW, level 15 using only the .45, K98, Trench Gun, and BAR

Are you one of those bastards that jump in front of me and shoot my bloody arm off with a trench gun?

I can get where the OP is coming from. It's not a case of "I can't seperate fact from fiction", but more of a case of "is it really right that these events are essentially being trivialised by being released as a computer game for entertainment?".
I don't think it's necessarily the case that a video game is more guilty of trivialising than a movie. Is Call of Duty not better at portraying the situations of war than, say, Dad's Army?

lol, classic, I love moments like those. All this talk of COD makes me want to go play it now. If anyone one here has a PS3 tell me your gamertag.

Pah, PS3. But now I also want to play COD, but I can't make my mind up which one.

Are you one of those bastards that jump in front of me and shoot my bloody arm off with a trench gun?

Are you a zombie?

I don't think it's necessarily the case that a video game is more guilty of trivialising than a movie. Is Call of Duty not better at portraying the situations of war than, say, Dad's Army?
I realised that as I was typing, but didn't really want to include that in my post, as it somewhat undermined my argument :p

Are you a zombie?

No, I thought we were talking about Multiplayer non co-op zombie mode such as Team Deathmatch

No, I thought we were talking about Multiplayer non co-op zombie mode such as Team Deathmatch

No I was talking about the bonus mission.

No I was talking about the bonus mission.

Ah ok I see.

No I was talking about the bonus mission.

I love that level. I'm shit at it, but I love it.

I find it hard to get into a bloody game, sometimes it can take me ages and when it does I have poor quality connection. During the day on the weekend it is alright cause of lots of aussies but then this time of the night I have to wait for ages, I would like to know what games my friends who are on are doing cause they aren't coming when I invite them.

Anyone else have these problems?