NationStates Jolt Archive

The controversial Treaty of Lisbon is set to give the EU unrestricted access to British oil and gas reserves.

That's the stark warning today from the Conservatives and UKIP.

Included in the Treaty are proposals to create a combined Anglo-Dutch fuel reserve, which could be tapped into when supplies were short in eastern European states.

The over-reliance on non-European supplies was highlighted only last week when Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin ordered national gas distributor Gazprom to turn off the taps to Ukraine. The chilling effect of limited Russian supplies was felt as far west as Austria.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said: "Brussels has already stolen our fish. Now they want our oil and gas. These are vital resources to Britain and we demand that the British Government vetoes these proposals. This shows how vital it is that the UK holds a referendum on our future in the European Union."

Conservative Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague said: "EU Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso is right to say that the EU needs to help eastern Europe with its energy security. But giving the EU control over our national energy reserves is totally the wrong way to go about it.

"This is a regretful example of how the renamed EU constitution would give the EU too much power over our national affairs and why so important a treaty should be put to the British people to decide in a referendum.

"What we really need is a proper free market in energy in the EU. The EU already has the power it needs to achieve that."

The Labour Government signed Britain up to the Lisbon Treaty last year, reneging on their earlier promise to consult the British people Yet another reason to jump from the sinking ship that is the EU. How dare the government knowingly give away our energy resources, especially in these un-sure times. This is one of those rare occasions I think the Queen should use her reserve powers and declare this absurd treaty null and void.

Quote taken from Tom Jackson Online (http://tomjacksononline.blogspot.com/), an excellent blog and well worth a read.

What the fuck? The can get their own fucking gas from somebody else. We're too far in to leave now though, and we'd lose a lot of trade.

What the fuck? The can get their own fucking gas from somebody else. We're too far in to leave now though, and we'd lose a lot of trade. We don’t have to be in to trade, look at Switzerland. I think we should go back to the old British was of ignoring Europe and dealing mainly with the rest of the world.

HAHA, Even more reasons for Norway to never join the EU.

But seriously that sucks for you brits.

Rhode Island had similar growing pains shortly afterward. You'll get used to it. You are now the Rhode Island of the EU. :)

We don’t have to be in to trade, look at Switzerland. I think we should go back to the old British was of ignoring Europe and dealing mainly with the rest of the world.

Isolation: it fixes everything!

We don’t have to be in to trade, look at Switzerland. I think we should go back to the old British was of ignoring Europe and dealing mainly with the rest of the world.

Yeah, I suppose. You know, I never thought I'd say this, but we could do with leaving the EU.

You all didn't care when they fucked the fishermen over. This is karma.

You all didn't care when they fucked the fishermen over. This is karma I did, it fucked up the fishing industry around here. Good fish being chucked in the sea, French trawler men nicking all our fish, absurd.

I did, it fucked up the fishing industry around here. Good fish being chucked in the sea, French trawler men nicking all our fish, absurd.

And Spanish. Also, the EU rewards backward farmers in Spain and France, but penalises decent British, Dutch, Danish etc ones.

And Spanish. Also, the EU rewards backward farmers in Spain and France, but penalises decent British, Dutch, Danish etc ones. I know all about that one, and what was Tony Blair thinking when he gave away our re-bate.

I did, it fucked up the fishing industry around here. Good fish being chucked in the sea, French trawler men nicking all our fish, absurd.

Ah, good show. But in general the good people of the UK couldn't have given less of a shit.

I say beat them at their own game. Claim the Brandenburg Gate as a UK historical resource and start charging admission.

So, we have to sacrifice our farms, fish, and now gas?

Its disgusting. How many times have the EU bailed us out?

I bet most Brits don't know just how many British troops are involved in those EU task forces no one seems to know about either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_battlegroup

Yeah, was implemented quite quietly wasn't it? Why, probably because if put to he British public British troops wouldn't be involved. But at least the rest of Europe pile in on that.

Its because of there competition rules that the Royal Mail is failing too, its illegal for the RM to have the monopoly or something like that.

Yet another reason to jump from the sinking ship that is the EU.

Yes, please, Brits, do leave the EU. We continentals are SICK of having the 51st State of the USA around.

Oh, how's the pound doing lately? Seesh.

Yes, please, Brits, do leave the EU. We continentals are SICK of paying HUGE subsides (since the times of Maggie Thatcher's) to the 51st State of the USA. We have paid far more money in than we get out of it, most of it going to backwards French farmers and now backwards Eastern Europe.

We have paid far more money in than we get out of it, most of it going to backwards French farmers and now backwards Eastern Europe.

Yea right. Does Maggie Thatcher ring a bell there on the wrong side of the Pas de Calais?

Anyway, if that's how you're feeling, leave the EU. Do it, please. It's annoying having to listen to silly complaints about "oh my they're invading us" every week.

So koennen wir endlich die englische Sprache verlassen.

Christ with all the unnecessary hyphens it's like Herman T. Zweibel got an Internet connection.

Yea right. Does Maggie Thatcher ring a bell there on the wrong side of the Pas de Calais?


Eh?

This thread is a little too... nationalistic for my liking.

Yea right. Does Maggie Thatcher ring a bell there on the wrong side of the Pas de Calais?

Anyway, if that's how you're feeling, leave the EU. Do it, please. It's annoying having to listen to silly complaints about "oh my they're invading us" every week.

So koennen wir endlich die englische Sprache verlassen.

You know, I never thought I'd say this, but I agree. They should finally make up their minds if they want to be in or be out.
So far, all the seem to be in for is complaining, moaning and blocking anything they possibly can block. It's annoying, and it's an embarrasment for the rest.

Leave, Brits, please do.

Eh?

Wasn't old Maggie the one who dealt for huge discounts about EU contributions in favour of the then-collapsing british economy? Yes, she was.

Anyway, I stand by my previous: if the brits want to leave, no one is keeping them in. If they want to stay, well, they should begin with complaining less and partecipating more.

This thread is a little too... nationalistic for my liking.
That's like all of the Eurosceptic threads from people in the UK. Usually turns out to be jingoistic and nationalistic "We don't need Europe!" sort of stuff.

From UKIP supporters.

Wasn't old Maggie the one who dealt for huge discounts about EU contributions in favour of the then-collapsing british economy? Yes, she was.

Anyway, I stand by my previous: if the brits want to leave, no one is keeping them in. If they want to stay, well, they should begin with complaining less and partecipating more.
But not all British people want out of the EU.

So far, all the seem to be in for is complaining, moaning and blocking anything they possibly can block. It's annoying, and it's an embarrasment for the rest.


Who's they? The people in this thread do not necessarily represent the attitude of the British government, you know that right?

But not all British people want out of the EU.

*sigh* I know. But you only ever seem to hear from those who want out...

But not all British people want out of the EU.

Well, then, I hope two things:
1.I hope that the pro-EU brits are the majority
2.I hope that they stop being a silent majority... or at least less noisy than then anti-EU.

Wasn't old Maggie the one who dealt for huge discounts about EU contributions in favour of the then-collapsing british economy? Yes, she was.


Well, kind of. But I don't really see what that has to do with anything now.


Anyway, I stand by my previous: if the brits want to leave, no one is keeping them in.

I don't think it's that simple, and there is actually huge pressure on the UK to stay in.

Who's they? The people in this thread do not necessarily represent the attitude of the British government, you know that right?

I know, I know... but I get that kind of nonsense every day at home. BF is a euro-sceptic (what a euphemism!!!) as well. I wish they'd drop out, just so all this complaining would stop.

Leave, Brits, please do. Last time I checked the Irish weren’t to keen on it either, damm that referendum where the people decided what they wanted. Typical EU will just keep making them vote until they get the desired result.

Yea right. Does Maggie Thatcher ring a bell there on the wrong side of the Pas de Calais?

Anyway, if that's how you're feeling, leave the EU. Do it, please. It's annoying having to listen to silly complaints about "oh my they're invading us" every week. Maggie knew we paid in far too much money for what we get, and got the re-bate. Then that idiot Tony Blair gave it away so were back to square one.

The only decent reason for being in the EU is so we can destroy it from within

Leave, Brits, please do.

We don't have a choice. I think the majority want to be in, but for the EU to have less power over us. That's how I want it to be, anyway.

Last time I checked the Irish weren’t to keen on it either, damm that referendum where the people decided what they wanted. Typical EU will just keep making them vote until they get the desired result.


Take it from me, the Irish are more than happy being in the EU, and in the common currency.
The thought of having their economy tied just to Britain as it was previously is currently a VERY sobering thought indeed.

They changed the contract, so they need a new vote. What's wrong with that? They can say "no" again, and force the EU to make more adjustments. In fact, they can say "no" until they get exactly the contract they want.

We don't have a choice. I think the majority want to be in, but for the EU to have less power over us. That's how I want it to be, anyway.

Be in, but not fully.
If you sit on the fence any longer, you might end up with painful splinters up your bum.

Well, kind of. But I don't really see what that has to do with anything now.
It's about the costs/benefits balance of being in the EU.


I don't think it's that simple, and there is actually huge pressure on the UK to stay in.
I know it isn't that simple, but I wish it were.

Anyway, making any pressure to keep the UK in, that's just our continental stupidity. The EU should be made of countries who really want to be in.

Be in, but not fully.
If you sit on the fence any longer, you might end up with painful splinters up your bum.

Well, let's say Ireland has an abundance of national gas. How would you feel if the EU decided to give it away?

The fact of the matter is that our elected representative's no longer have ultimate power, a bunch of Brussels burocrats do. We have to go with whatever they say even if it does no benefit us.

And that is the same throughout the entire EU, governments don’t seem to mind it but people do. The French and Dutch voted no on the constitution, and the Irish on Lisbon. The EU hates referendums because they know will lose them.

The diference between Ireland and the UK is that they have always needed the EU, we dont.

-snip-

Perhaps we should be focusing on the utterly absurd decisions the EU often make policy wise, since that is what is causing a lack of co-operation.

Well, let's say Ireland has an abundance of national gas. How would you feel if the EU decided to give it away?

If it creates jobs, what's wrong with it?

The fact of the matter is that our elected representative's no longer have ultimate power, a bunch of Brussels burocrats do. We have to go with whatever they say even if it does no benefit us.

And that is the same throughout the entire EU, governments don’t seem to mind it but people do. The French and Dutch voted no on the constitution, and the Irish on Lisbon. The EU hates referendums because they know will lose them.

The diference between Ireland and the UK is that they have always needed the EU, we dont.

Well, get out then.

Perhaps we should be focusing on the utterly absurd decisions the EU often make policy wise, since that is what is causing a lack of co-operation.

I agree that the current structure isn't as democratic as it could (and should) be. The Lisbon treaty tried to rectify that by reducing the number of commissioners, and at the same time give more power to the European Parliament.
Sadly, Irish campaings turned that into "We will no longer have a permanent commissioner, OMG, run for the hills!!!"

Perhaps we should be focusing on the utterly absurd decisions the EU often make policy wise, since that is what is causing a lack of co-operation.

No wait. The lack of co-operation started a long time ago. The point is that (some) Britons are enamoured of this notion of being an impregnable, isolated fortress defying the barbaric rest of the world that lies overseas.

Anyway, iirc the UK delegation to the EU parliament is the third (or fourth?) as for number of MEPs, so, Brits have the means to change EU policies, don't they?

QUOTE]Well, get out then.[/QUOTE]I would. So you don’t care that foreigners have more power over your country than the people you voted for?

I would. So you don’t care that foreigners have more power over your country than the people you voted for?

What foreigners? I don't own a country.
And the EU is currently in a process of trying to become more democratic. I appreciate that and will try my best to help it along in the process.

ugh:

1) this is a blog and follows the usual "E.U is out to get me" paranoia which somehow always ties in with other acts of being a troglodyte

2) LOL at "trendy left recycling mumbo jumbo is an absolute load of rubbish"

3) we are in a supernatural state now that seeks to protect all its members and as you can see the gas dispute is kinda important in the middle of winter

I think we should go back to the old British was of ignoring Europe and dealing mainly with the rest of the world.

the rest of the world doesn't want us and though yes we used to be shagging a perfect 10 its time we settle down with someone who we haven't just tied up in the basement

I bet most Brits don't know just how many British troops are involved in those EU task forces no one seems to know about either.

none.

British troops are "donated" for exercises but we have no troops within the battle group (France and Germany are happy doing all that since thats their show)

Yeah, was implemented quite quietly wasn't it? Why, probably because if put to he British public British troops wouldn't be involved.

or rather because it doesn't concern the British public

Yes, please, Brits, do leave the EU. We continentals are SICK of having the 51st State of the USA around.

pfft we will just take our Netherlands with us then :p

but please don't fuck up our trade or we will be smashing rocks together by sunset

We have paid far more money in than we get out of it, most of it going to backwards French farmers and now backwards Eastern Europe.

1) British farming whether you like it or not is dead especially with current soil depredation levels looming over

2) we currently import food favorably from our trading bloc so our investment in continental farmers is as important as our own (unless of course you don't want to give them subsidies in which you can deal with the price hike)

3) actually you will find that Britain has not been accommodating to Eastern Europe especially in the fact that we treat its citizens as second class despite delicious migrant workers keeping our economy ticking

hell I know a polish girl with a degree in economics who can't use it because its from Poland

This thread is a little too... nationalistic for my liking.

go move to Brussels! I'm sure they will find a nice gulag for you to stay in :mad:

No wait. The lack of co-operation started a long time ago. The point is that (some) Britons are enamoured of this notion of being an impregnable, isolated fortress defying the barbaric rest of the world that lies overseas.

Yes, but most Britons would be supporting the EU, or at main reasons it was set up, because it (and the rest of Europe) benefits greatly from things like liberated barriers to trade and labour movement. I'm sure there would be much more support if the EU stopped... being a little out of touch.


Anyway, iirc the UK delegation to the EU parliament is the third (or fourth?) as for number of MEPs, so, Brits have the means to change EU policies, don't they?

Not sure exactly how much power they have right now.

Yes, but most Britons would be supporting the EU, or at main reasons it was set up, because it (and the rest of Europe) benefits greatly from things like liberated barriers to trade and labour movement. I'm sure there would be much more support if the EU stopped... being a little out of touch.


Well, as with any demorcatic institution, it can only get there if people keep themselves informed and involved.
I can't stand those folks who can't get off their arses to check what the EU is actually doing, but are quite happy to start preaching doom and gloom after reading a Daily Mail article or a blog.

Yes, but most Britons would be supporting the EU, or at main reasons it was set up, because it (and the rest of Europe) benefits greatly from things like liberated barriers to trade and labour movement. I'm sure there would be much more support if the EU stopped... being a little out of touch.

I've always found it odd that following the Great war Britain was decidedly pro-Europe until harry Hun tried bombing us

maybe we need to lose one or two wars

Not sure exactly how much power they have right now.

enough to cause problems :)

Something I neglected to mention in the article is that the UK lacks capacity to store natural gas, so some of our excess is naturally diverted to continental Europe anyway. Still, that's our decision to do that and not some inflicted European mandate.

The British Government should be looking very carefully at storage solutions to secure our own energy needs in future.

I see some people on your forums are questioning the partiality of Conservative and UKIP opinion (they're obviously scientists too lol). It is of course true that these two political parties have an interest in eroding EU confidence. It is equally as true, however, that the British or EU Governments are unlikely to draw attention to such a contentious issue of their own volition.

Mark my words, this is the sort of thing happening in the EU. It isn't pretty.
More from Tom,

1) this is a blog and follows the usual "E.U is out to get me" paranoia which somehow always ties in with other acts of being a troglodyte

2) LOL at "trendy left recycling mumbo jumbo is an absolute load of rubbish"

3) we are in a supernatural state now that seeks to protect all its members and as you can see the gas dispute is kinda important in the middle of winter
1. He has never said the EU is out to get him, you knober.
2. Is that an insulting LOL or has he said somthing you agree with
3. Its not our problem

but we have no troops within the battle group

We actually have a joint Dutch-UK Battlegroup, don't we?

we are in a supernatural state now

Spooky.

ugh:



none.

British troops are "donated" for exercises but we have no troops within the battle group (France and Germany are happy doing all that since thats their show)

Sorry, there are at least 2 EU Battlegroups where British troops are the main segment. One is solely British, one is shared with the Netherlands.


or rather because it doesn't concern the British public

So, where British troops go, and what they are used for, has no significance to the British public?

pfft we will just take our Netherlands with us then :p

How come we seem to be linked to the Netherlands by the way? Not having a go, actually curious.

So the EU is trying to steal the UK's energy reserves?

Who the fuck gave them the right to do that?

Grow some balls UK, and say fuck you to the EU! Leave it at once.

I know the US would never tolerate a foreign body meddling that much in our affairs, much less stealing are energy reserve!

I know the US would never tolerate a foreign body meddling that much in our affairs, much less stealing are energy reserve!

Yeah, it's usually the reverse with the USA.

Who the fuck gave them the right to do that?

Themselves.

I mean really, next people will be suggesting that we export British manufactured goods next!

I mean really, next people will be suggesting that we export British manufactured goods next! Export implies we get money for it.

Export implies we get money for it.
And?

future energy security = E.U surely? (or rather collectively buying from Egypt as our own little colony :wink:)

1. He has never said the EU is out to get him, you knober.

Mark my words, this is the sort of thing happening in the EU. It isn't pretty.

*dusts hands* so who is this guy anyway?

2. Is that an insulting LOL or has he said somthing you agree with

"recycle today, don't be gay" *nods*

we have been recycling for yonks now and shit works regardless of the scandal

3. Its not our problem

yes it is what with our trade connections (especially doubly so us what with us essentially being an island size bank accountant)...actually I can't begin to fathom this I mean do you have such objections to a mutual support alliance?

We actually have a joint Dutch-UK Battlegroup, don't we?

we have never signed troops over to the E.U in a permanent way that doesn't mean the forces we donate are not put into a battle group

Export implies we get money for it.

Show me where it says you won't.

My sympathies go out to Britain.

I really hope that this can be resolved without forcing the UK to give up her oil.

My sympathies go out to Britain.

I really hope that this can be resolved without forcing the UK to give up her oil.

And gas.

Show me where it says you won't.
Ssh! You're getting in the way of another Evil EU Bogeyman rant.

Hey, I wouldnt stick around with that shit either...

If I could get some Politicians to advocate getting us outta NAFTA Id vote the hell out of them, lol...

If it was me id focus more on strengthening the Commonwealth rather than the EU, imo itd be in yours and your constituents best interests...

If it was me id focus more on strengthening the Commonwealth rather than the EU, imo itd be in yours and your constituents best interests...

I think a lot of the commonwealth harbors a secret hatred tho'. Something about an Empire.

*dusts hands* so who is this guy anyway? Friend of mine, Dr Jackson

"recycle today, don't be gay" *nods*

we have been recycling for yonks now and shit works regardless of the scandal It only works if people buy the stuff, and even then it’s a bit dodgy the way they do it.

yes it is what with our trade connections (especially doubly so us what with us essentially being an island size bank accountant)...actually I can't begin to fathom this I mean do you have such objections to a mutual support alliance?
If the Eastern Europeans cannot pay for there fuel that is not our problem, and on this issue its not mutual support. It’s us giving away our resources

Yes we will be giving it away, the whole point is to send it to Eastern Europe when they can’t get there own. Implying they haven’t paid for it, if they cant pay the Russians then there not going to be able to pay us.

The EU needs to be degraded. Those bastards interfere too much in each countries, policies. I can only understand the british on this.
Another Example that pissed me off though a little problem, was when the EU required all nations to use pesticides on the drinking/groundwater. Denmark (my Country) has some of the most clean water in Europe, and using pesticides or someother, would only destroy the value of our water. Yet the EU forced every one to do it.

I think a lot of the commonwealth harbors a secret hatred tho'. Something about an Empire.

probably true, lol...at least Puerto Rico still loves us, lol...

If the Eastern Europians cannot pay

Actually, Russia cut their supply off.

probably true, lol...at least Puerto Rico still loves us, lol...

He means the Commonwealth of the former British empire countries.

I think a lot of the commonwealth harbors a secret hatred tho'. Something about an Empire. Its too late to ge back, after we fucked them up by joining the EU in the first place. There may be hatred in Africa, but I think we get on well with the Old Commonwealth, White Commonwealth, whatever you want to call it.

The EU needs to be degraded. Those bastards interfere too much in each countries, policies. I can only understand the british on this.
Another Example that pissed me off though a little problem, was when the EU required all nations to use pesticides on the drinking/groundwater. Denmark (my Country) has some of the most clean water in Europe, and using pesticides or someother, would only destroy the value of our water. Yet the EU forced every one to do it.

As far as I understand, most Danes are a bit EU sceptical, right?

He means the Commonwealth of the former British empire countries.

No shit, lol...

I was just comparing it to our, as in the US's, relationship with Puerto Rico...

Probably not an exact analogy, but, you get the point, lol..

Spooky.

the E.U can pass through an Iron curtains!

Sorry, there are at least 2 EU Battlegroups where British troops are the main segment. One is solely British, one is shared with the Netherlands.

we have provided large troop numbers for the European theater for donkeys years now hence why the Turks are involved (though they always do whatever the Europe does being Billie no mates and all)

So, where British troops go, and what they are used for, has no significance to the British public?

seems so otherwise they would be having a fit at NATO

How come we seem to be linked to the Netherlands by the way? Not having a go, actually curious.

we've (almost) always been close out of necessity whether it be setting up slave trades, doing market stuff or pissing of the French

There may be hatred in Africa

Ghanains didn't have a problem with me when I went there.

I was just comparing it to our, as in the US's, relationship with Puerto Rico...

Probably not an exact analogy, but, you get the point, lol..

Oh right. I thought Puerto Rico was owned by the US?

Actually, Russia cut their supply off.
Gazprom, the Russian gas company, wanted Ukraine to pay a $2.4 billion debt.

Ghanains didn't have a problem with me when I went there. There are some African governments which still blame all there problems on colonialism, I’m sure there’s nothing wrong with the people though.

Oh right. I thought Puerto Rico was owned by the US?

More or less, Its very ambiguous, Its called something like "Voluntary Association" or some shit...They call themselves a "Commonwealth" of the US...

We give them votes on whether to be a State or go Independent, but, its split almost 50/50 every time, so they just kinda, stay in limbo, lol...

Gazprom, the Russian gas company, wanted Ukraine to pay a $2.4 billion debt.


And you think that's a good enough reason for them to stop gas to Greece, Croatia, Austria and Bulgaria?

Friend of mine, Dr Jackson

does he work in the E.U or something :confused:

It only works if people buy the stuff, and even then it’s a bit dodgy the way they do it.

its cutting waste which is usually a good thing I don't know how you can argue with sustainability initiatives

If the Eastern Europeans cannot pay for there fuel that is not our problem, and on this issue its not mutual support. It’s us giving away our resources

and should we fall in the doo-doo Eastern Europe returns the favour by shipping over crack whores or whatever Poland's biggest export is (atrocious food maybe?)

I'm sure your a supporter of the commonwealth so this should be a natural position for you

Yes we will be giving it away, the whole point is to send it to Eastern Europe when they can’t get there own. Implying they haven’t paid for it, if they cant pay the Russians then there not going to be able to pay us.

Ukraine is not in the E.U learn your surroundings

There may be hatred in Africa, but I think we get on well with the Old Commonwealth, White Commonwealth, whatever you want to call it.

erm...Canada maybe :confused:

Ghanains didn't have a problem with me when I went there.

to be honest you could re-institute slavery and Ghanaians would likely throw a party

And you think that's a good enough reason for them to stop gas to Greece, Croatia, Austria and Bulgaria? That was an unfortunate side effect, but them not having gas is not a good reason for us to give ours away.

its cutting waste which is usually a good thing I don't know how you can argue with sustainability initiatives

Storing it all in a warehouse isnt cutting waste, if people arnt buying it then it wont get recycled.

to be honest you could re-institute slavery and Ghanaians would likely throw a party

Yeah, they're all so happy. It makes me furious. :mad: :soap: :headbang: :upyours: :insert other noobish smiley here:

Its too late to ge back, after we fucked them up by joining the EU in the first place. There may be hatred in Africa, but I think we get on well with the Old Commonwealth, White Commonwealth, whatever you want to call it.

No doubt, but Canada has been out of the sterling area since even before the Empire broke up. It only really leaves Aus. and NZ. Those guys don't have enough people to make it worthwhile and they are very far away.

Ghanains didn't have a problem with me when I went there.

It's not a people thing. The regular person probably doesn't give a shit. It's a sort of upper echelons thing.

Yes, please, Brits, do leave the EU. We continentals are SICK of having the 51st State of the USA around.

Oh, how's the pound doing lately? Seesh.

Coming from one of the biggest economic drains in the EU (Italy). How is that world class corruption holding up down there?

Oh right. I thought Puerto Rico was owned by the US?

Puero Rico is a US territory. I know sometimes they like to think different at times however it isn't anything but.

That was an unfortunate side effect, but them not having gas is not a good reason for us to give ours away.


Again, where does it say you'll be forced to give it away?

Look. I'm no UKIP member, but aside from the various economic implications on our economy that the EU has, consider this:

Where is the democracy?

Look at the bodies supposed to represent the people of Europe. The parliament is just a rubber stamp for laws initiated bu the commission. It has no real power and gets so much paperwork to go through for each day that it is physically impossible for MEPs to read it all. Sometimes time is so short that they have to rely on a show of hands to decide the voting quickly. The commission holds all the real power and is so corrupt that it was only this year that it got the EU accountancy section (I forget its name) to sign of the Commission acounts. They hadn't been signed off for over seven years previously (I think it was actually for over a decade but I can't be sure so I'll err on the side of caution).

And now, the Lisbon Treaty is probably going to come into effect after the british people, even the pro europeans, such as myself, have been denied a vote on the matter and even after the irish voters rejected it - basically they're just going to vote on it again and repeat the proces until they get the "correct" result.

Oh, and here's the scary part. The Lisbon Treaty is self ammending. This means that once in force, the wording and legal effects of the treaty can be changed to anything at all. It could be quite legitimately changed to require all countries to exterminate, oh the jews for example. I'm not saying that will happen, merely that it could happeb and that the Lisbon Treaty would basically give the EU a carte blanche to change it to do whatever they wish.

Now despite all this, I actually remain in favour of europe. I'm one of those who wants the EU reformed to be for the benefit of all europeans. Not just the elite who run it.
And I certainly am in favour of democracy and free speech. So that means that when I go onto official EU websites, europa.org for example, I expect the way the EU works, and even, dare I say it, criticisms of the EU to be expressed there. I don't expect it to criticise itself, but at the very least it could answer criticisms and explain the workings of the EU to people to reassure them rather than keeping them ignorant an silent as it does at the moment.

Ave Europa, nostra vira patria.

That was an unfortunate side effect, but them not having gas is not a good reason for us to give ours away.

why? its not like we stand to lose anything in much the same way that France doesn't lose anything when they provide us power at peak times

Storing it all in a warehouse isnt cutting waste, if people arnt buying it then it wont get recycled.

thats more to do with how incompetent the British government is on the whole issue which is the case when you look at how the rest of the E.U performs in recycling

Yeah, they're all so happy. It makes me furious. :mad: :soap: :headbang: :upyours: :insert other noobish smiley here:

must be something in the water

It only really leaves Aus. and NZ. Those guys don't have enough people to make it worthwhile and they are very far away.

plus I doubt the US would allow the states to succeed from the union

Again, where does it say you'll be forced to give it away?

Well the EU is working toward a US style union someday. What we do in the US is take from the well off states and support the poor ones. For example if California was it's own nation it would be a very rich one if they could keep the federal taxes going out. Now Mississippi would be a third world nation because it doesn't create enough wealth to equal the government assistance it recieves. The US is a very good example of redistributing wealth on the state levels.

much less stealing are energy reserve!

They're trying to take Saudi Arabia! Americans, unite!

This has cropped up on another forum I'm on, started by the same member. Anyway, we had a wonderfully informative post over there, clarifying what the treaty actually means, and showing how the whole thing is a load of bullshit.

Oh for crying out loud, this is what makes me lose faith in humanity. Idiots endlessly chucking crappy second-hand information at each other gleaned from secondary sources (and terrible ones at that) and passing it off as intelligence and debating skill.

I can tell that not one of you has even bothered to read the consolidated Treaty on the European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, with the Lisbon Treaty amendments. The article that the Express (god help us) is referring to is the amended version of Article 222 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which reads as follows:


TITLE VII
SOLIDARITY CLAUSE

Article 222

1. The Union and its Member States shall act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster. The Union shall mobilise all the instruments at its disposal, including the military resources made available by the Member States,
to:

(a) — prevent the terrorist threat in the territory of the Member States;
— protect democratic institutions and the civilian population from any terrorist attack;
— assist a Member State in its territory, at the request of its political authorities, in the event of a terrorist attack;
(b) assist a Member State in its territory, at the request of its political authorities, in the event of a natural or man-made disaster.

2. Should a Member State be the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster, the other Member States shall assist it at the request of its political authorities. To that end, the Member States shall coordinate between themselves in the Council.

3. The arrangements for the implementation by the Union of the solidarity clause shall be defined by a decision adopted by the Council acting on a joint proposal by the Commission and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. The Council shall act in accordance with Article 31(1) of the Treaty on European Union where this decision has defence implications. The European Parliament shall be informed.

For the purposes of this paragraph and without prejudice to Article 240, the Council shall be assisted by the Political and Security Committee with the support of the structures developed in the context of the common security and defence policy and by the Committee referred to in Article 71; the two
committees shall, if necessary, submit joint opinions.

4. The European Council shall regularly assess the threats facing the Union in order to enable the Union and its Member States to take effective action.


Now for a crash course on jurisdiction: all matters on which the Union legislates have to fulfil the requirement on subsidiarity; in other words, it has to be proven that having individual member states tackle the problem would be less effective than having the Union legislate.

After this, the type of competence is assigned. Firstly, in some areas the Union has exclusive competence, which means that only the EU may legislate on a topic. Secondly, in other areas shared competence applies, which leaves member states free to legislate on any issue, provided the Union isn't legislating on the very same issue. The Member States exercise their powers in so far as the Union has not exercised, or has decided to stop exercising, its competence. Thirdly, there are things called supporting, coordinating or complementary competences. In certain areas and in the conditions laid down by the Constitution, the Union will have competence to carry out actions to support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States, without thereby superseding their competence in these areas. The Union's support will essentially be financial in nature.

In order for the Commission to even come near Anglo-Dutch gas supplies, the man-made disaster would have to qualify under the subsidiarity principle. Furthermore, as becomes clear from article 222, the Solidarity Clause has been designated as shared competence. This means that even if it does qualify and thus the Solidarity Clause is invoked, member states still have a vast amount of influence. Secondly, there is absolutely no mention of energy control, let alone of any control unless in case if an acute disaster. The only potential the Commission has to exercise any control over gas through this clause is if the Council of the European Union (comprising of all EU Prime Ministers, not bureaucrats) decides this is a man-made disaster, which opens an opportunity window for short-term emergency measures. Your gas supply will thus under no circumstance be affected in anything but the shortest of terms.

Barrosso alledgedly mentioned "mutualisation of energy supplies" in a talk with diplomats a few days ago. If he suggested (which, again, is very questionable) that the Treaty of Lisbon contained amendments to the Solidarity Clause that made it possible for any control over energy unless in a dire emergency (which offers no hope for long-term initiatives like this), he is wrong. However, as I have said before it's likely that a few phrases were snatched out of the air in a meeting that wasn't even intended for anything else but brainstorming. There has been no press release regarding any of this, and as stated above the Treaty of Lisbon does not grant the power to appropriate anyone's gas supplies. The Commission's London office has already described these claims as nonsense.

There was no talk of "stealing", "appropriating", or even the "taking" of Anglo-Dutch gas supplies to create an emergency stock. Having a European gas stock is simply a very sensible thing to do and If there will ever be such a stock, it will obviously be paid for - so it shouldn't make any difference to you because it was going to be sold anyway.

In spite of all this, the current situation has the potential to turn very grave. Lots of Europeans face extreme and potentially deadly colds. What on earth is wrong with selling them the gas you don't use? (And why aren't we doing this now, you ask? The infrastructure is not in place, that's why the Commission is in such a limbo.)

(from here (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=16418468#post16418468), used by permission)

Thank you UNIverseVerse for making a sensible comment. I do dislike the irrational "boo sucks to you" mentality these debates usually degeneate into.

Thank you UNIverseVerse for making a sensible comment. I do dislike the irrational "boo sucks to you" mentality these debates usually degeneate into.

Thank you, but I didn't write that comment. I copied it from another forum where Renner posted the same stuff, by permission of the original author. All the credit for it belongs to nugax, from TSR (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=16418468#post16418468).

True, but you were the one who was sensible enought to paste it here.

I retract my earlier statements, pending more thorough reading.

Honestly?

I'm European before I'm British, so I'm fine with this. It is ineveitable that Europe will act more as a nation than a union because that is what we're destined to become.

Coming from one of the biggest economic drains in the EU (Italy). How is that world class corruption holding up down there?

Fairly well, thanks to Shrub support we've got the prime corruptor re-instated as PM.

Btw, Italy gives to the EU more than it receives. It is true that a significant part of what Italy receives goes to waste (through bribery and inefficiency). Anyway, it's not Italy's currency that's plummeting, right?

Yes, but most Britons would be supporting the EU, or at main reasons it was set up, because it (and the rest of Europe) benefits greatly from things like liberated barriers to trade and labour movement. I'm sure there would be much more support if the EU stopped... being a little out of touch.


Remedy:
1.more pressure from UK electors on their representatives in the EUP
2.more pressure from UK electors on mr.Brown's cabinet (Council of Europe)
3.higher turnouts at the EUP elections in Britain

As for informations, there's plenty of it: just surf the internet in the EU official websites.

I know the US would never tolerate a foreign body meddling that much in our affairs, much less stealing are energy reserve!

Ok, let's take an american example. Let's say US, Canada and Mexico decide that NAFTA's got to have more power, and that NAFTA has to have a sort of legislative body with representatives elected by USians, Canadians and Mexicans.

Would you then call such a "NAFTA 2" a "foreign body"?

Btw, Italy gives to the EU more than it receives. It is true that a significant part of what Italy receives goes to waste (through bribery and inefficiency). Anyway, it's not Italy's currency that's plummeting, right? The pound has been stronger than the Euro for years and it will bounce back. At least we have control over our own currency, you dint.

The UK also gives more than it receives

As far as I understand, most Danes are a bit EU sceptical, right?

Oh noes, we're getting our LEGO supplies cut off!!! :tongue:

Oh noes, we're getting our LEGO supplies cut off!!! Rarther keep the Danes than the Italians

USians The term is Americans ty.

The pound has been stronger than the Euro for years and it will bounce back.
That must be why mr.Brown is considering anchoring the pound to the euro. :p

At least we have control over our own currency, you dint.
We do. Italy's representatives (just as any other EZ country's) sit in the ECB ruling bodies, and in the Council of Europe. So what?

The UK also gives more than it receivesAgain, see Maggie Thatcher and how the UK joined the EU.

The term is Americans ty.

Used USian to mark the difference with the "other north americans", that is canadians and mexicans.

And so begins the European Civil War...

from one former Secessionist area to another...

Dont let your guys charge blindly uphill with no cover, in packs...God isnt as on your side as youd think, lol...

Used USian to mark the difference with the "other north americans", that is canadians and mexicans.

Well, the terms to differentiate are, as you stated, Canadians and Mexicans...

USian isnt a word, notice the red line under it when you type it...

The pound has been stronger than the Euro for years and it will bounce back. At least we have control over our own currency, you dint.

The UK also gives more than it receives

Wow, some control you've got there...
It'll be a good few years before it bounces back; so far, it's still sinking.
And the EU has control over it's own currency, you may have heard of it, it's called the Euro.

So do Germany, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. Your point being?
The highest contributor is Germany, and they also are the country that get the least back out again.

Used USian to mark the difference with the "other north americans", that is canadians and mexicans. You would have to be a spastic to be confused by the sentence "Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans." It's patently obvious that Americans refers to citizens of the United States.

Wow, some control you've got there...
It'll be a good few years before it bounces back; so far, it's still sinking.
And the EU has control over it's own currency, you may have heard of it, it's called the Euro.

So do Germany, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. Your point being?
The highest contributor is Germany, and they also are the country that get the least back out again.

Well, correct me if im wrong, but, If the Euro falls in, say, France, or the Netherlands...

Then Germany's currency falls as well, correct?

However if the Euro falls in France, or the Netherlands...then the currency in the UK stays the same, correct?...

Well, correct me if im wrong, but, If the Euro falls in, say, France, or the Netherlands...

Then Germany's currency falls as well, correct?

However if the Euro falls in France, or the Netherlands...then the currency in the UK is stays the same, correct?...

The currency of the EU is the Euro. If it falls, it falls.

After all, if the pound falls due to economic difficulties in Wales, it also falls in London, doesn't it?

Again, see Maggie Thatcher and how the UK joined the EU. Tony Blair and the re-bate. Have a look

That must be why mr.Brown is considering anchoring the pound to the euro.Don’t know were you got that one, but it would never happen and if it did there would be political uproar.

We do. Italy's representatives (just as any other EZ country's) sit in the ECB ruling bodies, and in the Council of Europe. So what? You do not have total control over your currency, and what’s good for some of the Euro-Zone may not be good for Italy, then what you going to do.

The currency of the EU is the Euro. If it falls, it falls.

After all, if the pound falls due to economic difficulties in Wales, it also falls in London, doesn't it?

True, but Wales isn't its own Independent Nation, neither is London...

However, supposedly France, Germany, and the Netherlands are their own Independent Nations...

True, but Wales isn't its own Independent Nation, neither is London...

However, supposedly France, Germany, and the Netherlands are their own Independent Nations...

Who'vew joined a common currency in order to make a common market possible.
I still fail to see where your problem with the concept lies...

The Euro and the Pound are both fiat and are both as useless as each other (as are the other fiat currencies, i.e. all of them.)

The currency of the EU is the Euro. If it falls, it falls.

After all, if the pound falls due to economic difficulties in Wales, it also falls in London, doesn't it?

Wales isn't a nation, its a principality :p

Hence its exception from the Union flag.

You do not have total control over your currency, and what’s good for some of the Euro-Zone may not be good for Italy, then what you going to do.

Again, your control over your currency doesn't look very... well, controlled.
And how is what's good for London also good for Stoke-on-Trent?

Who'vew joined a common currency in order to make a common market possible.
I still fail to see where your problem with the concept lies...

That a common Currency and Common Market, arent necessarily in the best interests of the constituent members,

For example, the UK's Natural Gas going to Eastern Europe against its wishes...

Wales isn't a nation, its a principality :p

Hence its exception from the Union flag.

Uh-hu... so, every English town has direct control over the currency? Really?
Every single inhabitant?

That a common Currency and Common Market, arent necessarily in the best interests of the constituent members,

For example, the UK's Natural Gas going to Eastern Europe against its wishes...

No, but it's what those members decided to do 10 years ago. So far, they're still going strong.

And if you read the thread, you might find out that no UK gas will go anywhere against anybody's wishes. But please, don't let a bit of fact get in the way of a perfectly good argument...

Uh-hu... so, every English town has direct control over the currency? Really?
Every single inhabitant?

No, but a damn site more than a similar town in Germany or France...

No, but a damn site more than a similar town in Germany or France...

Is that why the pound is in free fall at the moment, then? Cause they all got together and decided that's what they wanted it to do?

Again, your control over your currency doesn't look very... well, controlled.
And how is what's good for London also good for Stoke-on-Trent? What’s good for Britain is good for Britain. Despite your best efforts and wishful thinking the Countries the EU have not been turned into one big blob and are all different. What is good for some is not good for others. Each individual government does not have control over there economy, its no surprise that being members of the euro-zone is actually worsening some countries and not making them better or any more secure.

Is that why the pound is in free fall at the moment, then? Cause they all got together and decided that's what they wanted it to do? Why was Ireland the first country to fall into recession if the euro-zone is so good.

If you Brits would like to join a trading block that doesn't get into your business.
there is NAFTA. I am sure we could reword North American to North Atlantic for the grand ole UK.

At the bear minimum you could use the treat of joining us to get the EU to back down.

What’s good for Britain is good for Britain. Despite your best efforts and wishful thinking the Countries the EU have not been turned into one big blob and are all different. What is good for some is not good for others. Each individual government does not have control over there economy, its no surprise that being members of the euro-zone is actually worsening some countries and not making them better or any more secure.

What's good for Bristol isn't automatically what's good for Glasgow.
And last time I checked, the UK wasn't exactly a "big blob" either, no matter how much you seem to wish it to be so.

And which country has been worse off for being in the common market and common currency? Are you talking about Germany?

No, but it's what those members decided to do 10 years ago. So far, they're still going strong.

And if you read the thread, you might find out that no UK gas will go anywhere against anybody's wishes. But please, don't let a bit of fact get in the way of a perfectly good argument...

First line: "The controversial Treaty of Lisbon is set to give the EU unrestricted access to British oil and gas reserves."


Dont worry, I never do, lol....


And, whether they are going strong, is a matter of Opinion...but whether or not thats what happens in the end, its beside the point, the point is, if there's something in this treaty that is against the UK's wishes, then it shouldnt be used, and if the EU uses it anyway, then the UK should leave...

If none of that comes to pass, then everything just says the same, but, if it does, well, there you go, its just imo...

Why was Ireland the first country to fall into recession if the euro-zone is so good.

Becasue its banking system is extremely closely linked to the UK still.
Many banks here are just branches of UK banks. When they fell, they took their branches in Ireland with them.

If anything, the Euro has saved Ireland from going into a far worse recession so far.

First line: "The controversial Treaty of Lisbon is set to give the EU unrestricted access to British oil and gas reserves."


Dont worry, I never do, lol....


And, whether they are going strong, is a matter of Opinion...but whether or not thats what happens in the end, its beside the point, the point is, if there's something in this treaty that is against the UK's wishes, then it shouldnt be used, and if the EU uses it anyway, then the UK should leave...

If none of that comes to pass, then everything just says the same, but, if it does, well, there you go, its just imo...

*sigh*
Do read the thread, please.
The treaty anc only come into effect if all member states ratify it.
If Britain doesn't want to ratify it because it disagrees with its contents, then by all means don't ratify it and work with the Union to change the disputed bits.
So far, it hasn't been ratified, so all choices are still open.
Please only start moaning when there actually IS something to moan about.

*sigh*
Do read the thread, please.
The treaty anc only come into effect if all member states ratify it.
If Britain doesn't want to ratify it because it disagrees with its contents, then by all means don't ratify it and work with the Union to change the disputed bits.
So far, it hasn't been ratified, so all choices are still open.
Please only start moaning when there actually IS something to moan about.

Well, thats what I said...if it doesnt pass then everything just stays the same...

I was just saying if they somehow wanted to try and strong arm it anyway...Not that they would, or would be legally allowed to do so...but still, in the unlikely event that it did happen, then they should leave...

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now when it's worked so well?
Jim Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely.
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased, it's just like old times.
Jim Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [Chuckles smugly] Really Minister.
Jim Hacker: But then, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well it's like the United Nations. The more members an organization has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.
Jim Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
Jim Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It's a game played for national interests, it always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
Jim Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of Free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Jim Hacker: So why did the French go into it then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Jim Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No no, they went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
Jim Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism. At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
Jim Hacker: Very sensible central location.
Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!

First line: "The controversial Treaty of Lisbon is set to give the EU unrestricted access to British oil and gas reserves."

<snippety>

Except it doesn't. As has been explained, the treaty of Lisbon does no such thing, and claims that it does are simply baseless scaremongering by nationalist europhobes.

<snipped Yes Minister quotes>

Congratulations, you can look up quotes from a 20 (now closing on 30, actually) year old TV show.

Now, please demonstrate how they have any relevance to a) this situation in particular, noting that your original claim has been proved completely false, and b) the current geopolitical climate in general, bearing in mind both the massive changes in the global power structure, and the changes to the makeup and purpose of the EU, since Yes Minister was written.

*Snip Yes, Minister quote. LENGTHY Yes, Minister quote*

Is this the point where you've decided arguing is taking time away from your valuable ranting?

Uh-hu... so, every English town has direct control over the currency? Really?
Every single inhabitant?

Lewes does. :p

No really, it does.

Congratulations, you can look up quotes from a 20 (now closing on 30, actually) year old TV show.

Now, please demonstrate how they have any relevance to a) this situation in particular, noting that your original claim has been proved completely false, and b) the current geopolitical climate in general, bearing in mind both the massive changes in the global power structure, and the changes to the makeup and purpose of the EU, since Yes Minister was written.I got bored of arguing and thought I would post something funny and related. And my post has not been totally disproven. All of what it said could still happen

Except it doesn't. As has been explained, the treaty of Lisbon does no such thing, and claims that it does are simply baseless scaremongering by nationalist europhobes.
I am proud to be a nationalist, and I hate the idea of a political EU. All I want is for us to retain our independence from Europe. Norway and Swizerland seem to do a good job

Is that why the pound is in free fall at the moment, then? Cause they all got together and decided that's what they wanted it to do?

Not that it has anything really to do with the topic...

But...You think maybe itll fall lower than ours?...Id like to have Greenbacks on top again, lol...

Why are they hitting up Britain for gas reserves? We only have Roughfields, giving us about 22 days supply at peak demand, France and Germany have about 75 and 85 days respectively.

Are their reserves already being stripped to heat the rest of Europe?

must be something in the water

No, the water makes you act very unhappy, I can assure you.

plus I doubt the US would allow the states to succeed from the union

What have they got against success?

What's good for Bristol isn't automatically what's good for Glasgow.

It most likely is.

No, the water makes you act very unhappy, I can assure you.



What have they got against success?

ALOT!!! :mad:We WILL NOT TOLERATE ALL THIS...This...SUCCEEDING!!!

Says the guy from Mississippi...

Says the guy from Mississippi...

Exactly, we of the Most Patriotic peoples do not even tolerate Success in our OWN State! Just to show that we are the REAL America!

Mississippi has a long and proud history of attempted success, but I don't think the guys in DC would be too happy if they tried it again in the present.

Virginia, however, we are pretty divided when it comes to success.

Mississippi has a long and proud history of attempted success, but I don't think the guys in DC would be too happy if they tried it again in the present.

Virginia, however, we are pretty divided when it comes to success.

Psh, We burned those books a long time ago and all the witchcraft they contained, we also will not tolerate such devil worship as 'history books' or whatever nonsense they are calling them....

True, but Wales isn't its own Independent Nation

But it is a separate country, so it's not the same as say a city's economy going down the pan.

Psh, We burned those books a long time ago and all the witchcraft they contained, we also will not tolerate such devil worship as 'history books' or whatever nonsense they are calling them....

Unless the world was created 6,000 years ago by the One and Only Lord?

Creationism is the True Road to Salvation, mah chil!

Says the guy from Mississippi...

I always thought MS was Missouri? And Mississipi was MI?

Look. I'm no UKIP member, but aside from the various economic implications on our economy that the EU has, consider this:

Where is the democracy?

Look at the bodies supposed to represent the people of Europe. The parliament is just a rubber stamp for laws initiated bu the commission. It has no real power and gets so much paperwork to go through for each day that it is physically impossible for MEPs to read it all. Sometimes time is so short that they have to rely on a show of hands to decide the voting quickly. The commission holds all the real power and is so corrupt that it was only this year that it got the EU accountancy section (I forget its name) to sign of the Commission acounts. They hadn't been signed off for over seven years previously (I think it was actually for over a decade but I can't be sure so I'll err on the side of caution).

And now, the Lisbon Treaty is probably going to come into effect after the british people, even the pro europeans, such as myself, have been denied a vote on the matter and even after the irish voters rejected it - basically they're just going to vote on it again and repeat the proces until they get the "correct" result.

Oh, and here's the scary part. The Lisbon Treaty is self ammending. This means that once in force, the wording and legal effects of the treaty can be changed to anything at all. It could be quite legitimately changed to require all countries to exterminate, oh the jews for example. I'm not saying that will happen, merely that it could happeb and that the Lisbon Treaty would basically give the EU a carte blanche to change it to do whatever they wish.

Now despite all this, I actually remain in favour of europe. I'm one of those who wants the EU reformed to be for the benefit of all europeans. Not just the elite who run it.
And I certainly am in favour of democracy and free speech. So that means that when I go onto official EU websites, europa.org for example, I expect the way the EU works, and even, dare I say it, criticisms of the EU to be expressed there. I don't expect it to criticise itself, but at the very least it could answer criticisms and explain the workings of the EU to people to reassure them rather than keeping them ignorant an silent as it does at the moment.

Ave Europa, nostra vira patria.

Firstly, the European Parliament is not just a rubber-stamping body; over the last decade its power has been strengthened through the number of treaty changes. In fact, increasing the power of the EP and the democratic side of the EU is, along with the need for efficency due to the increasing membership of the EU, the main reason for all the Treaties recently. The states just never go far enough in democratizing the EU for fear of losing their own power and legitimacy, which is why constant reform is needed and more and more treaties.
This leads to people fearing that the EU is changing far too quickly, and this causes fear of the reforms, despite the fact that democratic reform is moving all too slowly. The rejection of treaties leads to them being watered down, and less of a willingness to make big democratic reforms in the future, so reform remains slow, and the vicious circle continues. The Treaty of Lisbon will give the EP equal law-making powers as the Council (the states) in the vast majority of what is now Pillar 1 (economic stuff mainly).

Secondly, plenary sessions of the EP are where general debates and the voting takes place. This is usually short as most of the work is done in committees, where MEPs look at legislation in detail. This is similar to how most european parliaments work.

Thirdly, the power of the Commission is vastly, and I mean vastly, exaggerated. It still technically has the right of initiation - it proposes laws - BUT the Council and the EP can ask the Commission to propose laws on what they want. Since laws need their consent to pass (and in all cases the assent of the states is needed), these demands can't be ignored without good reason. Also the EP and Council can amend laws, to the extent that it can end up nothing like what the Commission proposed. Also, the Commission is woefully understaffed and basically has neither the time nor resources to do much on its own initiative other than promote the single market, which is what it was designed to do.

Fourthly, as an Irishman I am becoming increasingly annoyed at how British politicians and euroskeptics seem to know what our referendum means more than we ourselves do. The referendum was badly run and fought mainly on irrelevant issues. That said, when we negociate for the changes we want, it was Britain who didn't want us to make sure that the Charter of Rights would have legal force lest it damage their opt-out. So the Irish position doesn't offer Britain a dim-witted euroskeptic side-kick that it can wheel around as "exhibit A" to validate their arguments. We want an EU that works. The No side campaigned largely on a platform of wanting some changes (asking for renegociation). Getting legal guarantees and having another vote it consistant with that. (This rant is general and not directed at anyone in particular).

Fifthly, the "self-amending" clause allows the treaty to be changed with the unanimious consent of the states according to their constitutional procedure. In Ireland, that's a referendum. In Britain, that's an Act of Parliament (referendums in the UK are against constitutional theory as it goes against the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty). Anyway, in the past there have been minor clauses in the Treaties allowing the EU/EEC to have jurisdiction in an area if the states agreed, so it's not a radical change.

Six, the Court of Auditors, who check the accounts, HAVE stated that the accounts of the EU INSTITUTIONS are good. HOWEVER, it can only approve the budget accounts as a whole, not in parts, and the spending of large parts of EU money (CAP, regional funds) it done and administered by the member states. Their accounts are faulty. The Netherlands has suggested that member states should certify their spending of EU money so everyone knows where it went, but this was shot down.

Seven, on the oil and gas question, I agree with the post on article 222 (I think it was 222). Also, article 194(2) of the same treaty states when talking about energy policy:
"Such measures shall not affect a Member State's right to determine the conditions for exploiting its
energy resources, its choice between different energy sources and the general structure of its energy
supply, without prejudice to Article 192(2)(c)."


Finally, nearly all of the power in the EU lies with the states in the form of the Council. If you want the EU to be more democratic, this means more integration (power moves from Council to EP (to be shared) or even to the Commission if you want to make it worthwhile making it directly elected). Sovereignty and democracy are opposite sides of this arguement - you can have an EU of sovereign states who make deals way from the public based on national interest and diplomacy, OR you can have elected representitives at an EU level deciding how to use the budget, etc. for the public interest on the basis of democracy.

I always thought MS was Missouri? And Mississipi was MI?

Other way around, lol...

He didn't have to learn all this crap in 7th grade, so he gets a pass.

Other way around, lol...

Ah well, in my mind they're the same place. Inhabited by banjo players who sit in rocking chairs on the porch of their wooden house at the banks of the river.

Unless the world was created 6,000 years ago by the One and Only Lord?

Creationism is the True Road to Salvation, mah chil!

INDEED BROTHER! LET THE HILLS SING WITH THE SALVATION OF OUR VOICES!!!



Now I see why Baldwin does this, its fun as hell, lol...

Ah well, in my mind they're the same place. Inhabited by banjo players who sit in rocking chairs on the porch of their wooden house at the banks of the river.

Close, but we prefer Guitars to Banjos...and we have better food, lol...

Ah well, in my mind they're the same place. Inhabited by banjo players who sit in rocking chairs on the porch of their wooden house at the banks of the river.

You are definitely right on this account. Missoura and Miss'ippi are inhabited by very nice, very generous, and very crazy people.

Virginians represent a different class of Southerner. We don't live in the modern age of religious insanity, we prefer to harken back to the simpler times of the antebellum South.

Now I see why Baldwin does this, its fun as hell, lol...

FUN? FUN??!?!? FUN IS AN INSTRUMENT OF SATAN HIMSELF, FOUL HEATHEN!

You're right, it really is.

"UKIP claims of 'stolen' natural gas are all a load of hot air".

As per usual, claims based on the facts of the treaty are the most realistic.

Well I'm british, and I support the EU.

Also we should get the Euro. The pound is so weak now, that it needs to be annexed into the euro

Also we should get the Euro. The pound is so weak now, that it needs to be annexed into the euro

It's about as weak as the Euro is, at the moment.

Also we should get the Euro. The pound is so weak now, that it needs to be annexed into the euro

The last thing we want to do is start using the Euro with a weak pound.

Also we should get the Euro. The pound is so weak now, that it needs to be annexed into the euro
The weak pound isn't a problem, despite what the press make of it.

The last thing we want to do is start using the Euro with a weak pound.

The question is Would it be a good idea with a Strong Pound?...

Close, but we prefer Guitars to Banjos...and we have better food, lol...

Mississippi food is so good.

This is stupid!It's not UKIP fault their land doesn't have oil!I demand them to leave them alone!

End of message.

This is stupid!It's not UKIP fault their land doesn't have oil!I demand them to leave them alone!

End of message.

What?

The question is Would it be a good idea with a Strong Pound?...

I'm still undecided on that one.

Personally I favour economic autonomy over being tied into a single currency. Even before the current global problems germany was in a prolonged slump/recession due solely to problems in other euro countries.

The question is Would it be a good idea with a Strong Pound?...

if your going to change over it is better to change over with a strong pound. Because the population at large will get more Euros in the change over.

if your going to change over it is better to change over with a strong pound. Because the population at large will get more Euros in the change over.

The population will still get screwed on the exchange rate.

if your going to change over it is better to change over with a strong pound. Because the population at large will get more Euros in the change over.

Yeah but if the Pound is stronger than the Euro..Why would they want to change currencies at all?

Yeah but if the Pound is stronger than the Euro..Why would they want to change currencies at all?
1 British pound = 1.12 Euros

Yeah, so much stronger. :rolleyes:

Actually the German economy had been picking up (a bit), and unemployment had been falling consistently for the last while. I think I heard that unemployment had dropped in the latest figures which came out after Lehman Brothers and a lot of that mess.
Although I don't know enough about it to know if they were good quality jobs or not. Anyway, it'll be going downhill from here.

As to whether or not their problems were caused by other Euro countries... I can't say, though I would attribute the bad performance of the German economy over the last decade or so largely to the trouble in absorbing the DDR. From what I hear, anyway.

1 British pound = 1.12 Euros

Yeah, so much stronger. :rolleyes:

Well it was a Hypothetical Situation...Whether to change currencies when your currency was weak or to do so when it is strong...

Yeah but if the Pound is stronger than the Euro..Why would they want to change currencies at all?

I said if. why a currency as strong and stable long term as the pound would be switched from I don't know.

*Makes jokes about Europeans and their gas.* :P

Heh heh heh - "Teh USA shuddent use oil cuz they cant drill it there and atke it from other places"

So, by that measure, the EU has no right to natural gas. :p

Yet another reason to jump from the sinking ship that is the EU.
Of course. The best time to leave a customs union - when your economy is in a bit of trouble. Genius.
How dare the government knowingly give away our energy resources, especially in these un-sure times.
Because there's not that much left anyway.
This is one of those rare occasions I think the Queen should use her reserve powers and declare this absurd treaty null and void.
It already got kicked in the head by the Irish, if you followed politics at all then you would know this.

The question is Would it be a good idea with a Strong Pound?...
Nope. Nor is it going to be a good idea, ever. The government makes a decent amount of money on Forex stamp-duty, so having an extra currency on there is always nice.

We have paid far more money in than we get out of it, most of it going to backwards French farmers and now backwards Eastern Europe.

Psst, without heavy British lobbying several of those Eastern European countries wouldn't have become members.

On a side note UKIP are in a mess, they're likely to collapse in the summer EU elections.

What was Tony Blair thinking?

Fixed for accuracy.