NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=093F35B7A274CA2C7D0F1D155E019196?diaryId=8920

How do they get away with all of the abuse? The forced religion, the stifling of freedom of speech? Was it legal to prevent us from reporting abuse to authorities, or to restrain us with ropes, wool blankets, and duct tape? Is it legal to force young boys to talk about masturbation with Mormon clergy and missionaries? How does all of this go unnoticed? We were young and naive and didn't know that most of what they did to us was illegal. Buttars was famous for telling us that we had only three rights: food, safety, and shelter. They failed to even live up to those standards.

It amazes me to no end that, America, the country that is suppose to be all about freedom, allows this shit to go on in their own backyard.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=093F35B7A274CA2C7D0F1D155E019196?diaryId=8920


It amazes me to no end that, America, the country that is suppose to be all about freedom, allows this shit to go on in their own backyard.

We don't do anything about anything until we know said things take place. We refuse to do anything about abuses we don't know are going on. We're lazy like that.

Its kinda hard to do something about something we don't know is happening.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=093F35B7A274CA2C7D0F1D155E019196?diaryId=8920


It amazes me to no end that, America, the country that is suppose to be all about freedom, allows this shit to go on in their own backyard.

Yeah... but hey, didn't those abduction/imprisonment things happen in like Denmark or something? Where the women were kept in someone's basement for like 10 years? How come no one yells at the Danes??

Yeah... but hey, didn't those abduction/imprisonment things happen in like Denmark or something? Where the women were kept in someone's basement for like 10 years? How come no one yells at the Danes??

Because we do the same thing. We refuse to fix problems we don't know about. It's a shame we're too lazy to fix problems we don't even know existed. It's like how George Washington was too lazy to eradicate human AIDS, a disease that didn't really exist until thirty years ago. And how Abraham Lincoln was too awesome to kill terrorist leaders that wouldn't be born until nearly a century after his death. Pure laziness.

Kindly excuse my skepticism, but could I get another source? This could, after all, be yellow journalism muckraking. Not that I say it didn't happen, mind.

Because we do the same thing. We refuse to fix problems we don't know about. It's a shame we're too lazy to fix problems we don't even know existed. It's like how George Washington was too lazy to eradicate human AIDS, a disease that didn't really exist until thirty years ago. And how Abraham Lincoln was too awesome to kill terrorist leaders that wouldn't be born until nearly a century after his death. Pure laziness.

Don't worry to much about it. It's just the "When in doubt, blame America" strategy.

Kindly excuse my skepticism, but could I get another source? This could, after all, be yellow journalism muckraking. Not that I say it didn't happen, mind.

link (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/1/5/8431/61882/90/680293)

Kindly excuse my skepticism, but could I get another source? This could, after all, be yellow journalism muckraking. Not that I say it didn't happen, mind.

I'm not sure that I can find another source for this story, but it's not as if this hasn't happened before, with people like Lyn Duff. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyn_Duff)

Yeah, it's pretty fucking disgusting. Of course it probably gets a bit of a pass because its 'religious' and 'religious' is synonymous with good for some reason.

That said, institutional abuse of children is pretty widespread throughout the west. Mostly because a great many of the people in charge are depraved perverts and this suits them. After all, where else are the politicians in DC going to get their supply of young boys?

We don't do anything about anything until we know said things take place. We refuse to do anything about abuses we don't know are going on. We're lazy like that.
^ ^
This. Or did you miss this: http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Women-children-and-pregnant-teens-removed-from/6_oPVGfc3ECHV08KrDOIwQ.cspx

Until our precognitive abilities are developed, we can't know about things no one reports.

I'm curious about why there's only the blog, and not a news story anywhere?

We don't do anything about anything until we know said things take place. We refuse to do anything about abuses we don't know are going on. We're lazy like that.^This^.

^ ^
This. Or did you miss this: http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Women-children-and-pregnant-teens-removed-from/6_oPVGfc3ECHV08KrDOIwQ.cspx

Until our precognitive abilities are developed, we can't know about things no one reports.

This is why I support putting law enforcement in the hands of Tom Cruise.

link (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/1/5/8431/61882/90/680293)

Thanks for a copy of the OP link material. Got anything else?

Or did you miss this: http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Women-children-and-pregnant-teens-removed-from/6_oPVGfc3ECHV08KrDOIwQ.cspx
In May, the Third Court of Appeals, in Austin, ruled that the state had not presented sufficient evidence of immediate danger to remove the children. CPS appealed to the Texas Supreme Court, which upheld the Appeals Court ruling and ordered the return of the children. heehee. modfail. *hides* or were you referring to the fallability of such claims and supporting my skepticism?

*edit* religious fundamentalism is not a crime in and of itself, and the accusation of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing. I am hesitant to accuse anyone upon the evidence of only one person. Get two witnesses to what must surely be a crime with many victims, and I'll be more inclined to believe the accusation.

Until our precognitive abilities are developed, we can't know about things no one reports.

I'm curious about why there's only the blog, and not a news story anywhere?

It's been in operation for over 40 years. Really, the lack of oversight for these places is appalling. Some would say an obvious indication of willful blindness on the part of the authorities, since the average taco stand seems to get more scrutiny from the PTB.

In any event, you hear about this stuff all the time. (I believe there have been threads on this very forum about the similar situations in other such institutions: so bad in fact Eutrusca was talking about doing a commando raid on one or some similar batshit insane thing.)

So I have to wonder, if I am hearing of these things, why is nobody in authority hearing about them? I can only speculate that they are mostly fine with the status quo, for whatever reason, and will only act when things become too embarrassing for them personally.

So I have to wonder, if I am hearing of these things, why is nobody in authority hearing about them? I can only speculate that they are mostly fine with the status quo, for whatever reason, and will only act when things become too embarrassing for them personally.

Or there's an embarrassing lack of evidence.

Or there's an embarrassing lack of evidence.

Or their hands are tied, or perhaps they themselves are also involved in the corruption, and they don't want to fix it.

Yeah, it's pretty fucking disgusting. Of course it probably gets a bit of a pass because its 'religious' and 'religious' is synonymous with good for some reason.

That said, institutional abuse of children is pretty widespread throughout the west. Mostly because a great many of the people in charge are depraved perverts and this suits them. After all, where else are the politicians in DC going to get their supply of young boys?

Frankly the Mormons are getting away with too much. First they fund the Proposition 8 campaign, and now this. I bet you if it had been Muslims instead of Mormons involved, there would be a howl of near-unanimous outrage and action would have been taken.

I don't agree with their stance, but I'm pretty sure the Mormon church's funding of a campaign against Prop 8 wasn't illegal.

Or there's an embarrassing lack of evidence.

I'm not sure you are right about that. While I don't know any of the specifics of the particular case at hand, certainly things like the Franklin case in Nebraska indicate that this sort of thing does go on and is not only ignored by the authorities, but sometimes it is actively covered up.

And there are other things: like the sex slave trade in most major cities - which would be fairly easy to suppress and yet, for whatever reason, isn't. (Unless you are going to tell me that the sex slave thing doesn't exist either).

I realize it is an uncomfortable thought that most of the people in power are perverts and abusers, but that is the only conclusion I can draw from their apparent behavior.

I don't agree with their stance, but I'm pretty sure the Mormon church's funding of a campaign against Prop 8 wasn't illegal.
I'm pretty sure it forfeits their claim to operate tax-exempt.

Frankly the Mormons are getting away with too much. First they fund the Proposition 8 campaign, and now this. I bet you if it had been Muslims instead of Mormons involved, there would be a howl of near-unanimous outrage and action would have been taken.

I tend to agree with that.

But muslims aren't really part of the political/institutional school kid-touching consensus, so I'm not really sure this sort of thing applies to them in the first place.

This is why I support putting law enforcement in the hands of Tom Cruise.
I've got my eye on you.

This is why I support putting law enforcement in the hands of Tom Cruise.

The guy from Cocktail? What's he gonna do? Pour the criminals a drink after flingin' some bottles of booze around?

Thanks for a copy of the OP link material. Got anything else?


heehee. modfail. *hides* or were you referring to the fallability of such claims and supporting my skepticism?

*edit* religious fundamentalism is not a crime in and of itself, and the accusation of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing. I am hesitant to accuse anyone upon the evidence of only one person. Get two witnesses to what must surely be a crime with many victims, and I'll be more inclined to believe the accusation.
No modfail. It was announced that no one ever investigated this sort of abuse because Mormon's religious status protects them. If anything, that story shows that there was a bloody big investigation -- and one which, after removing hundreds of kids from their families, the allegations were unproven and the state supreme court told CPS to GIVE THE KIDS BACK.

Did they need to investigate the report? Absolutely. Did the FLDS get "a free pass" because they are part of a religion? Absolutely not.

Hook, line and sinker.

The guy from Cocktail? What's he gonna do? Pour the criminals a drink after flingin' some bottles of booze around?
See: Minority Report.

In any event, you hear about this stuff all the time. (I believe there have been threads on this very forum about the similar situations in other such institutions: so bad in fact Eutrusca was talking about doing a commando raid on one or some similar batshit insane thing.)

He was talking about a commando raid on a similar type of "school", which once its services are engaged, kidnap the target in the middle of the night, and then proceed to brainwash them along with the usual hard physical conditionings designed to break down mental resistance and will, producing what is in effect, cultists who all believe that they would be dead if they weren't sent there, have toilet paper quality diplomas and are trained to be completely subservient to their parents/guardians for the entirety of their lives.

It's an island facility at that, and the founder IIRC claimed that he would never allow another journalist on it since the last one broke the story.

There was never any news of the place being shut down though, so it's likely that it's still doing business as usual.

He was talking about a commando raid on a similar type of "school", which once its services are engaged, kidnap the target in the middle of the night, and then proceed to brainwash them along with the usual hard physical conditionings designed to break down mental resistance and will, producing what is in effect, cultists who all believe that they would be dead if they weren't sent there, have toilet paper quality diplomas and are trained to be completely subservient to their parents/guardians for the entirety of their lives.

It's an island facility at that, and the founder IIRC claimed that he would never allow another journalist on it since the last one broke the story.

I think I may have read about that place in high school. Was it in the Caribean or something?

There was never any news of the place being shut down though, so it's likely that it's still doing business as usual.

Fucking hell. If its the place I'm thinking of, I read about it several years ago. I also recall I talked to the local branch of Amnesty International about it.

What does it take to get things like fundemental human rights the protection they deserve?

What does it take to get things like fundemental human rights the protection they deserve?

It takes people like you and I to stand up and kick some ass.

It takes people like you and I to stand up and kick some ass.

No, actually it would take government officials and law enforcement who

a) were competant, and

b) gave a damn.

No, actually it would take government officials and law enforcement who

a) were competant, and

b) gave a damn.

Which, given the lack of people who give a damn enough to do it through official and legal channels and have enough influence to make it stick, it falls to vigilante, and usually fatal, justice.

Which again, doesn't usually happen often enough or for the right enough reasons.

So business as usual.

I think I may have read about that place in high school. Was it in the Caribean or something?


I believe so.

You know. The more I think about it, the more the place sounds like something out of a cheap spy thriller. An island base where people are kidnapped and brainwashed into loyal slaves by a ruthless and powerful magnate, complete with brutal minions guarding the place from external interference.

Which, given the lack of people who give a damn enough to do it through official and legal channels and have enough influence to make it stick, it falls to vigilante, and usually fatal, justice.

Which again, doesn't usually happen often enough or for the right enough reasons.

So business as usual.

Well presuming your serious and not just trolling for laughs;), the problems with vigillantism are that you don't always know who's guilty without due process of law so innocents may get hurt, without a standard of laws that apply to everyone society would break down, and you'll tend to end up in jail while making the people you went after look like the victims.

Well presuming your serious and not just trolling for laughs;), the problems with vigillantism are that you don't always know who's guilty without due process of law so innocents may get hurt, without a standard of laws that apply to everyone society would break down, and you'll tend to end up in jail while making the people you went after look like the victims.

Like I said, not the right enough reasons, which among them, includes a surety that you've got the right person.

The place most people are probably think of when they think of the 'Caribbean place' is actually a camp that was in Samoa (which Samoa I cannot remember unfortunately).

Having been to a SECULAR program (against my will) like this, I can confirm that certain things such as crappy treatment from staff do occur, but not all places are like that.

Where I was there was a sexual issue maybe once a year, and it was something that was always swept under the rug, and during my time there was never involving staff, just things between other 'residents'. There was definitely emotional abuse and verbal abuse at where I was. Physical abuse did not occur unless I count possible environmental hazards.

It largely depends on the administration, and the staff setup. Generally most of the people that were imprisoned in such programs just want to move on with their life, and are not given the knowledge that they can seek legal help for what they think are abuses. Almost all the programs have some kind of internal grievance system, but they are usually structured in such a way to intimidate the person filing the grievance and the grievances are rarely taken very seriously (this may be due to grievances being filed for things that are actually ok and simply because someone is angry with a staffer)

The place I was trapped against my will for two and a half years was one of the programs run by a group called 'Three Springs' http://www.threesprings.com/ Also, any photos that the site has, ARE NOT 'residents' of the program. They are professional 'models' that go to various places and pose as residents for the purpose of photo-shoots. There is a 'confidentiality issue' (evidence issue? hmmm..) about taking the photo of a 'resident' that would end up proving someone was trapped there...

No modfail. It was announced that no one ever investigated this sort of abuse because Mormon's religious status protects them. If anything, that story shows that there was a bloody big investigation -- and one which, after removing hundreds of kids from their families, the allegations were unproven and the state supreme court told CPS to GIVE THE KIDS BACK.

Did they need to investigate the report? Absolutely. Did the FLDS get "a free pass" because they are part of a religion? Absolutely not.

Nor did the Catholic Church (eventually).

I am a devout christian, and I am wondering what bible some of these idiots are reading! I have many good friends that are Mormons who would be absolutely infuriated that their denomination may support some of the more abusive programs. I understand the necessity of bootcamps to reform some students, but there should be a high degree of oversight to make sure abuse does not occur. I guess the government is violating life liberty and property rights through omission. As I recall when a government becomes destructive towards natural rights the people have the right to abolish it or change it, according to the Declaration of Independence. It is instances like this where the 2nd admendment right to form a militia is justifiable, provided that the militia does not try to escalate conflict.

I am disturbed by how often I see people on line advocating violence or the threat of violence as a way of solving political problems. Perhaps its inevitable in a time of war and economic crisis, but its unfortunate.

Personally, I believe that violence may be justified in extreme cases to protect one's self, friends, or family, or in the case of truly massive abuses such as genocide where peaceful alternatives have been exhausted. However, advocating the formation of an armed militia to deal with a situation such as this, especially if legal and political means have not yet been exhausted, is outrageous, and in my view is inherently an escalation. Its also probably borderline treasonous.

Thanks for a copy of the OP link material. Got anything else?


heehee. modfail. *hides* or were you referring to the fallability of such claims and supporting my skepticism?

*edit* religious fundamentalism is not a crime in and of itself, and the accusation of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing. I am hesitant to accuse anyone upon the evidence of only one person. Get two witnesses to what must surely be a crime with many victims, and I'll be more inclined to believe the accusation.
What a shock: the supposed libertarian is the one who doesn't see the danger and seems to think everything's perfectly fine with this. Why am I not surprised?

Its kinda hard to do something about something we don't know is happening.

That's what the Germans said. You don't want to be a Nazi do you?







I win Godwins Law!

What a shock: the supposed libertarian is the one who doesn't see the danger and seems to think everything's perfectly fine with this. Why am I not surprised?

The libertarian is hesitant to immediately send in the police to make arrests based on one blog on the internet just because the mormons are weird and therefore all accusations against them must be true.

Look, I never said the accusations weren't true. All I said was that the only accusation anyone has presented is this one story presented in an identical format on two blog sites. Not exactly a credible source. The accusation involves kidnapping, assault and battery, child abuse, and a host of other crimes yet there has not been any collaborating witness or a formal police report or any other reason to believe this account.

I have no objection to an investigation - I do however, object to this forum's instant assumption of guilt whenever any religious group is accused of wrongdoing. The YFZ case shows that it is not exactly impossible for such a report to be baseless.

Geez, for such a skeptical group, some of you sure jump on the "bash the fundies" bandwagon pretty fast. Try some tolerance, live and let live, and don't believe everything you see on the internet! :p

No modfail. It was announced that no one ever investigated this sort of abuse because Mormon's religious status protects them. If anything, that story shows that there was a bloody big investigation -- and one which, after removing hundreds of kids from their families, the allegations were unproven and the state supreme court told CPS to GIVE THE KIDS BACK.

Did they need to investigate the report? Absolutely. Did the FLDS get "a free pass" because they are part of a religion? Absolutely not.


I don't doubt it for a minute for some reason. This kind of stuff goes on all the time. I bet you there are more this one instance as well. This kind of thing is really difficult once you get involved. You are breaking up families. The children get shunted around.

For the most part what was their crime? They were too young to defend themselves. Sickening!

^ ^
This. Or did you miss this: http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Women-children-and-pregnant-teens-removed-from/6_oPVGfc3ECHV08KrDOIwQ.cspx

Until our precognitive abilities are developed, we can't know about things no one reports.

I'm curious about why there's only the blog, and not a news story anywhere?

Xomic would probably love a Department of Pre-Crime.

I'm curious about why there's only the blog, and not a news story anywhere?

http://www.votelaw.com/blog/archives/002410.html

http://www.mormongulag.com/ (click on legal issues)

You guys ever hear about "innocent until proven guilty?"

Clearly the authorities should investigate but I'd wait to hear the results of the investigation before organizing the lynching party. All I see at the moment is one article, by one person (the Kos link was the same article).

You guys ever hear about "innocent until proven guilty?"

Clearly the authorities should investigate but I'd wait to hear the results of the investigation before organizing the lynching party. All I see at the moment is one article, by one person (the Kos link was the same article).

There are some here who believe that certain parties (religious folk especially) are guilty until proven innocent, and should be convicted on the basis of

a) any accusation
b) their being religious

Yesterday there was a poster who thought that police should be convicted based on:

a) any accusation
b) their being police
c) no physical evidence

Of course, there was a voice here yesterday for procedural justice...

The libertarian is hesitant to immediately send in the police to make arrests based on one blog on the internet just because the mormons are weird and therefore all accusations against them must be true.

Look, I never said the accusations weren't true. All I said was that the only accusation anyone has presented is this one story presented in an identical format on two blog sites. Not exactly a credible source. The accusation involves kidnapping, assault and battery, child abuse, and a host of other crimes yet there has not been any collaborating witness or a formal police report or any other reason to believe this account.

I have no objection to an investigation - I do however, object to this forum's instant assumption of guilt whenever any religious group is accused of wrongdoing. The YFZ case shows that it is not exactly impossible for such a report to be baseless.

Geez, for such a skeptical group, some of you sure jump on the "bash the fundies" bandwagon pretty fast. Try some tolerance, live and let live, and don't believe everything you see on the internet! :p

:hail: Words of divine wisdom.

One way to possibly prevent this type of thing in the future is all these camp should be inspected once in a while. Cloistering for lack of a better word is a bad idea. You have to ask yourself "Why do they need to remove themselves from the public?"

You guys ever hear about "innocent until proven guilty?"

Clearly the authorities should investigate but I'd wait to hear the results of the investigation before organizing the lynching party. All I see at the moment is one article, by one person (the Kos link was the same article).

I can understand your skepticism when this is the first time you are hearing about it. It is FAR from the first time I have heard about it. "Clearly" the authorities should investigate? Clearly, they won't, because the legal and political system in Utah is in collaboration with these abuses. There does come a point when self-help is the only remaining option.

I can understand your skepticism when this is the first time you are hearing about it. It is FAR from the first time I have heard about it. "Clearly" the authorities should investigate? Clearly, they won't, because the legal and political system in Utah is in collaboration with these abuses. There does come a point when self-help is the only remaining option.

The legal and political system is closely tied with this very camp. (http://www.votelaw.com/blog/archives/002410.html)

AP reports: A complaint alleging the Utah Boys Ranch illegally aided in the re-election campaign of state Sen. Chris Buttars has been filed with the Internal Revenue Service.

Salt Lake City attorney Thomas Thompson requested the IRS undertake a formal investigation of the private, nonprofit school for troubled youth in West Jordan. Buttars, R-West Jordan, is the tax-exempt school's executive director.

Thompson filed the complaint on behalf of a client, who requested anonymity.

A sworn statement included with the complaint claims boxes of Buttars' Senate campaign brochures were "maintained" in his Boys Ranch office. It also alleges the school's telephones were used for "campaign purposes."

Buttars, who will retire Thursday after 15 years as Boys Ranch director, acknowledged having campaign materials delivered to the school and talking to constituents and campaign supporters on office phones.

One could assume that the presence of people in the management of the ranch and having the same people in the government of the state would make it harder to prosecute the management of the ranch.

The libertarian is hesitant to immediately send in the police to make arrests based on one blog on the internet just because the mormons are weird and therefore all accusations against them must be true.

Look, I never said the accusations weren't true. All I said was that the only accusation anyone has presented is this one story presented in an identical format on two blog sites. Not exactly a credible source. The accusation involves kidnapping, assault and battery, child abuse, and a host of other crimes yet there has not been any collaborating witness or a formal police report or any other reason to believe this account.

Totally agreed. I'm usually one of the first to jump on anyone accused of abusing children, but the truth can be a slippery thing, especially when it involves one-sided stories from angsty teens. Very often in professions dealing with children accusations seem to translate automatically in the public's mind to guilt. There's a very good reason for this, of course--our children's safety should be our highest priority--but it can have terrible repercussions for innocent people.

As an educator who works with very young children, I definitely have to work in a very careful and transparent way. I've heard children tell me stories (when I knew the facts behind them) that made a situation seem very different from what it was, simply because the child didn't have the understanding or language to explain it any other way. When you work with kids, even teenagers, in any capacity, you always have to watch your own back and communicate with everyone involved. I had to talk to a school administrator while I was substitute teaching about a situation where a 12-year-old boy made a joke to his friend about how he wouldn't mind being "raped" by me (i forget the exact language, but the word rape was in there). That one comment, for which I had to admonish him, could have opened up a WORLD of trouble for me if I hadn't gone to staff and debriefed right away.

It is not just this camp. I think a lot of those "Tough Love" camps need to be investigated.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/popup?id=3709166

You guys ever hear about "innocent until proven guilty?"

I wasn't aware that this was a court room, or we a jury.

I wasn't aware that this was a court room, or we a jury.

We are now. *subpoena's Neo Art* :tongue:

You guys ever hear about "innocent until proven guilty?"

What's this nonsense you're spouting off about? Really now. Back in my day, we lynch-mobbed the guy and didn't ask questions. Police knew what they was doin' and that was good enough for us, dangnabit! :D

Yesterday there was a poster who thought that police should be convicted based on:

a) any accusation
b) their being police
c) no physical evidence


How about "all soldiers are killers and join to kill people"?

How about "all soldiers are killers and join to kill people"?

I thought it was "all soldiers are poor smart people and join for the GI Bill"

There are some here who believe that certain parties (religious folk especially) are guilty until proven innocent, and should be convicted on the basis of

a) any accusation
b) their being religious



Haha, my god, you're such an idiot.

Look, do you know why the Mob was so hard to take down? The system that's suppose to judge people, and decide whether or not they're 'guilty' or 'innocent' was corrupt, and that's part of the problem.

If the system is truly corrupt as this person suggests it is, then there is no hope for any sort of justice. And of course the system is corrupt, why do you think they'd spend all that money to transfer someone across state lines, to this state?

Now, you say that I'm suggesting that these mormons are guilty because they're mormons, and, to a degree, I am, because I, as well as the others, know damn well these are isolated incidences, I know damn well the religious get off the hook far too often for crimes they do, every day, commit.

For years people made accusations against the Catholic church, that some of their Priests were sexually abusing alter boys and such not, and for a long time idiots like yourself stood up and made stupid statements along the lines "lol there's no evidence, just some guy/girl's account lol it mustn't be true", but guess what, it did turn out to be true, it turned out that the Catholic church is just riddled with these monsters, and for a long time, too long in my, and many people's opinion, nothing was done, and more children were harmed.

The question isn't whether or not this abuse happened, there are several accounts of similar abuses occurring, the question is whether or not you're going to stand by and give the corrupt a free pass because they're religious, or not.

Innocent and proven guilty is a laudable sentiment that's rendered a lot more practical when there's anyone with the guts to go and prove guilt. Institutions like this thrive on a widespread public indiference to the conditions of anything regarded as penal or militaristic.

To say nothing of course of the collusion between state, church, and what could be kindly called re-education camps in Utah. In other more civilized states they cut out the church and just sanction the beatings and abuse based on a more eugenic disregard for anyone branded as a risk to society.

This kind of abuse goes on all the time, and frankly the burden of proof should be on the camp, not the accuser in this case, the entire system is clearly rigged to conceal it.

Yeah... but hey, didn't those abduction/imprisonment things happen in like Denmark or something? Where the women were kept in someone's basement for like 10 years? How come no one yells at the Danes??

Shhh. Dont critize the European Übermensch.

When something like this happens there, its not their fault, they didnt know.

When it happens here, well, the American government, and American people, must have known about it. Hell, we probably approve of it too.