NationStates Jolt Archive

I had originally posted this on "the mega-thread" but it seems to be being ignored for some reason.

Here is my original post:

Shovrim Shtika, or Breaking the Silence are accounts from former Israeli soldiers

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Not every soldier behaves this way. But every army in the world has soldiers that behave this way.

People can be made to do anything. Many of them suffer internally for the rest of their lives over their own actions.

Anyone with any sense knows that no one group are to blame. In fact in this case the biggest problem is seeing there being two sides.. "the f*'ing Israelis and Palestinians"

The truth is it's just a bunch of people grasping at straws, picking which ever "group" are backing their emotions on that day.

Go ahead and take a side if you wish, and listen to the screams when you tuck in to your dinner and settle down for a quiet night having put the world to rights.

Let's have your thoughts then

Breaking the silence? You'd think all those rockets and explosions make quite some noise, wouldn't you?

Breaking the silence? You'd think all those rockets and explosions make quite some noise, wouldn't you?

Shovrim Shtika

Watched a video of a vet from Mei Lai massacre in History, and man, he was suffering. He was in a mental institution and they did a sweep across his medications, and it was like a coffee table full of anagelesics. He was shaking as hell. People really do suffer for incredibly stupid, reckless, and filthy decisions.

Watched a video of a vet from Mei Lai massacre in History, and man, he was suffering. He was in a mental institution and they did a sweep across his medications, and it was like a coffee table full of anagelesics. He was shaking as hell. People really do suffer for incredibly stupid, reckless, and filthy decisions.


It's true. I might assume you and I have never and hopefully never be in these situations. It's not always "incredibly stupid, reckless, and filthy decisions"
Carefully designed training systems are put in place to warp the minds of good mortals and all to often have proved to be extremely effective.

It would be much easier to condemn these people for their actions, but life ain't that easy. Torturing innocent civilians or teaching your own child to commit "martyrdom" beggars belief.
There is something more fundamental going on here and it's caught in a vicious loop.

That is why I believe pointing the figure to one side or the other serves little purpose and a lack of understanding of what's really happening here.

Not every soldier behaves this way. But every army in the world has soldiers that behave this way.

People can be made to do anything. Many of them suffer internally for the rest of their lives over their own actions.


My main problem is necessarily not the individuals who carry out the acts; but the policies and institutionalised acts of the organisation (IDF) from the top down, and from the government. I don't really sympathise with the soldiers however. They still have a moral choice to carry out their actions. If they carry out something knowing it is illegal, I have even less empathy.

My main problem is necessarily not the individuals who carry out the acts; but the policies and institutionalised acts of the organisation (IDF) from the top down, and from the government. I don't really sympathise with the soldiers however. They still have a moral choice to carry out their actions. If they carry out something knowing it is illegal, I have even less empathy.


1) Why is your main problem (IDF) and not both the IDF AND (other) ultra radical groups? Why just one of the radical groups, why do you only have a "main problem" with 1 of the groups ?

2) A moral choice? Ordinary soldiers in every army in the world have carried out atrocities, but of those that do, the vast majority of them have been changed by warfare to become people that their own families don't recognise. Q.E.D. something fundamental in their military environment has twisted their minds to becoming people they probably never would have believed they would have become, and of course I am referring to those that are racked with guilt. These people have become damaged goods, why on earth can't you sympathize with them more?

You are right in that the problems lie in institutionalised acts of the organisations (plural).

Within war and training for war, some would argue that these institutionised systems are essential to create an effective fighting machine and it is simply unfortunate that it effects some in unpalatable ways.

I'm striving for a sense of balance and clarity in viewing this situation, what say you?

1) Why is your main problem (IDF) and not both the IDF AND (other) ultra radical groups? Why just one of the radical groups, why do you only have a "main problem" with 1 of the groups ?
Because the website/testimonies/this thread is about IDF soldiers....?
Surely I don't have to qualify every statement with a * and then - *by the way I wholly condemn the actions and tactics of the terrorist group [insert name here]?

2) A moral choice? Ordinary soldiers in every army in the world have carried out atrocities, but of those that do, the vast majority of them have been changed by warfare to become people that their own families don't recognise.
Most of the modern soldiers that carry out atrocities do not hail from states that call themselves democracies.

These people have become damaged goods, why on earth can't you sympathize with them more?
Because while they recognise the illegal act they carried out in the past, it does not change that they committed it and failed to address it at the time. Guilt doesn't undo an atrocity, nor does it demand sympathy or even empathy.


Within war and training for war, some would argue that these institutionised systems are essential to create an effective fighting machine and it is simply unfortunate that it effects some in unpalatable ways.
I refuse to believe how the use of human shields is part and parcel of the training that goes into a modern effective army.

I'm striving for a sense of balance and clarity in viewing this situation, what say you?
I'm saying I expect more from the army of an apparent democracy.

Because the website/testimonies/this thread is about IDF soldiers....?
Surely I don't have to qualify every statement with a * and then - *by the way I wholly condemn the actions and tactics of the terrorist group ?

[I]This thread isn't just about IDF soldiers, it's about people that fight.
I'm looking to find accounts of Hamas militants that are also breaking the silence.


Most of the modern soldiers that carry out atrocities do not hail from states that call themselves democracies.

Yes they do. I have two family members that have recently left the British armed forces and they would testify otherwise. It's not long ago that some of the U.S. service have had to account for their actions in Guantanamo


Because while they recognise the illegal act they carried out in the past, it does not change that they committed it and failed to address it at the time. Guilt doesn't undo an atrocity, nor does it demand sympathy or even empathy.

There are many reasons why individuals act this way. Some are so messed up they loose any sense of reason. Some are in fear of their own lives if they don't "play ball" just to name two. I suppose you'd be able to guarantee that's you couldn't possibly crack up no matter what the circumstance.


I refuse to believe how the use of human shields is part and parcel of the training that goes into a modern effective army.

I didn't mention human shields. There are so many aspects that go into training men in the art of breaking down the will of the enemy. Often they're setup with a form of carte blanche to say "you know what to do, so do it and get results" (else we'll be disappointed).


I'm saying I expect more from the army of an apparent democracy.

Ever served?

Not good at this quote / response layout yet, please excuse me

Ever served?
I'm an Army brat.

Not good at this quote / response layout yet, please excuse me
You're getting better.

Edit: Hold on.

This thread isn't just about IDF soldiers, it's about people that fight.
I'm looking to find accounts of Hamas militants that are also breaking the silence.
If you want to broaden the debate that's cool. Good luck finding open and apologetic Hamas members though!

Yes they do. I have two family members that have recently left the British armed forces and they would testify otherwise. It's not long ago that some of the U.S. service have had to account for their actions in Guantanamo
Exactly - accountability. At the very least those armies have processes that shine a light somewhat on the failure of individual soldiers or institutional rot. It's not much, but it's much more that the investigations the IDF churns out. Israeli Court system? Yeh, I think they do an alright job - but when te government and military freely ignore their rulings, there are serious institutional problems there. That lack of accountability starts at the top like that, and filters through an organisation. It would take a long time to filter out such attitudes.

There are many reasons why individuals act this way. Some are so messed up they loose any sense of reason. Some are in fear of their own lives if they don't "play ball" just to name two. I suppose you'd be able to guarantee that's you couldn't possibly crack up no matter what the circumstance.
Soldiers are there for a reason. If they don't question the order to use a human shield, or to extra-judicially kill someone, or to target civilians - then they deserve no sympathy. They are morally and legally obliged to refuse illegal orders.

I didn't mention human shields. There are so many aspects that go into training men in the art of breaking down the will of the enemy. Often they're setup with a form of carte blanche to say "you know what to do, so do it and get results" (else we'll be disappointed).
You do what you have to do - within the rules. You break them, you get punished.

The latter does not happen nearly enough in the Israel/Lebanon/Palestinian Territories arena.

Edit 2: The reason I am critical of the IDF/Israeli Government is that we are constantly told they are the only democratic society in the area. Yet when we compare their activities with other Western democratic societies, they fall well short. When a criticism arises, cries of "STFU", "anti semite!" and "you don't understand" crop up repeatedly. I don't criticise groups like Hamas et al to the same extent, because I don't hold them on an equatable level as a Western democracy. That doesn't mean I condone the actions of Hamas.

Anyone with any sense knows that no one group are to blame. In fact in this case the biggest problem is seeing there being two sides.. "the f*'ing Israelis and Palestinians"


Are you kidding me? The wars in Israel are not the fault of the Israeli people. If I recall, it was Israel's neighbors who started the wars when Israel was first established and if I recall, it is the Palestinians who are committing cowardly suicide attacks, targeting Israeli civilians... Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt struck first, Israel has a right to defend itself.

As a Jew myself, Western thought on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (a Holocaust survivor) told me... "Never give your full trust to a gentile."

The simple fact is, there are two sides to this conflict and it is VERY black and white, you're either with one side or you're with the other... If you can't handle that, then avoid the subject.

Because the website/testimonies/this thread is about IDF soldiers....?
Surely I don't have to qualify every statement with a * and then - *by the way I wholly condemn the actions and tactics of the terrorist group [insert name here]?


Most of the modern soldiers that carry out atrocities do not hail from states that call themselves democracies.


Because while they recognise the illegal act they carried out in the past, it does not change that they committed it and failed to address it at the time. Guilt doesn't undo an atrocity, nor does it demand sympathy or even empathy.


I refuse to believe how the use of human shields is part and parcel of the training that goes into a modern effective army.


I'm saying I expect more from the army of an apparent democracy.

I'm an Army brat.


You're getting better.

Edit: Hold on.


If you want to broaden the debate that's cool. Good luck finding open and apologetic Hamas members though!


Exactly - accountability. At the very least those armies have processes that shine a light somewhat on the failure of individual soldiers or institutional rot. It's not much, but it's much more that the investigations the IDF churns out. Israeli Court system? Yeh, I think they do an alright job - but when te government and military freely ignore their rulings, there are serious institutional problems there. That lack of accountability starts at the top like that, and filters through an organisation. It would take a long time to filter out such attitudes.


Soldiers are there for a reason. If they don't question the order to use a human shield, or to extra-judicially kill someone, or to target civilians - then they deserve no sympathy. They are morally and legally obliged to refuse illegal orders.


You do what you have to do - within the rules. You break them, you get punished.

The latter does not happen nearly enough in the Israel/Lebanon/Palestinian Territories arena.

Fair enough. Except plenty of British and U.S. incidents are swept under the carpet. The reality as I'm sure you are aware often ignores rules of combat.
Whilst I agree with your principles I do have sympathy with the individual. Often no matter what they've done so long as they show remorse. And you don't need to be a Christian to feel that way about another human being. In fact I happen to be Atheist without any doubt.

It's late here and I need to get some sleep. Thanks for the chat.

As a Jew myself, Western thought on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (a Holocaust survivor) told me... "Never give your full trust to a gentile."

Conversely, the events of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts show that you should never trust a Jew either. After all, it was Jews acting on their own that initiated the Cave of Patriarchs massacre, and even killed their own leader for the sake of continued conflict. It was also Jews (settlers) acting on their own when they killed the Palestinians in the area so that they could build their homes on the deceased's lands. It was also the Jews who broke in Palestinian homes and got the courts to evict the residents.

What's that? It's only some Jews that behave like scum in human form? They shouldn't all be treated like a hive mind? I'm sorry, but that's the pit you dug, so you get to enjoy it too.


The simple fact is, there are two sides to this conflict and it is VERY black and white, you're either with one side or you're with the other... If you can't handle that, then avoid the subject.

Two sides of the conflict, and both are black. There's no "good" or "bad". Just a pair of sides fighting for reasons that are pretty meaningless now all the while committing crimes against each other out of indoctrinated hate.

Are you kidding me? The wars in Israel are not the fault of the Israeli people. If I recall, it was Israel's neighbors who started the wars when Israel was first established and if I recall, it is the Palestinians who are committing cowardly suicide attacks, targeting Israeli civilians... Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt struck first, Israel has a right to defend itself.

As a Jew myself, Western thought on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (a Holocaust survivor) told me... "Never give your full trust to a gentile."

The simple fact is, there are two sides to this conflict and it is VERY black and white, you're either with one side or you're with the other... If you can't handle that, then avoid the subject.

Are you kidding me!
There's normally 3 sides to a story; side 1, side2, and the truth.
The world that you're in isn't black and white, it's many shades in between. If you can't see that try adjusting the contrast.

Peoples views of what they see tends to drag them to believe what seems apparent, and the whole playground fight escalates. You've just joined in with the other kids instead of standing back and looking at the overall picture.

I myself was raised Jewish and later rejected it as I have all religions. I to was told not to trust gentiles, and I learned this is false.

There are people, cultures and ideas. There is collective reason and individual.
Black and white? ya daft bugger!

Hosting a massive Rock Concert with bands from all over the world right in the middle of Jerusalem would break the silence quite well. At the very least it would break the noise ordinance laws.

I find it odd that the State of Israel drafts women as soldiers, but it is governed by religious beliefs which preclude women from participating as rabbis or in any of the other hierarchy (like the catholics).

I think if you had the women in decision-making positions, including the positions in the religious hierarchy, there might be better and more well-rounded and thoughtful decisions made about going to war, continuing war and what tactics should or should not be employed during war.

I think if you had the women in decision-making positions, including the positions in the religious hierarchy, there might be better and more well-rounded and thoughtful decisions made about going to war, continuing war and what tactics should or should not be employed during war.

Does the name "Golda Meir" mean anything to you?
Just, you know. Wondering.

If not, I advise you look up her, Black September, and the Yom Kippur War. I think you'll find that women have a greater role in Israeli politics than you think...

Thanks for this thread, Bird Chasers. Shalom/Salaam.

I had originally posted this on "the mega-thread" but it seems to be being ignored for some reason.
My reason: I don't look at the mega thread, tl;dr.

Shovrim Shtika, or Breaking the Silence are accounts from former Israeli soldiers

Yes I know of them. A little minority, like the Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve outside the 1967 borders, but it's important that it exists.

This proves (for the n-th time, but some people NEVER learn) that one cannot blame the idiocies (or the criminal acts) of a government on the whole population said government rules. This is valid for Israel, for Gaza, even, guess what, for Iran. :p

Does the name "Golda Meir" mean anything to you?
Just, you know. Wondering.


Wait:
Golda Meir -> Yom Kippur
Maggie Thatcher -> Falklands War and "thatchernomics"
Benazir Buttho -> Pakistani support for Talibans and various criminal charges

...I always wondered why some people still maintain this silly notion "If wymmyn ruled the world, all countries would be in peace and no more bucks would be spent on weapons and all people would have a nice job or a plentiful welfare".

A most important point there, Rissottia!

Not every Italian voted for Berlusconi either, companero!

Are you kidding me? The wars in Israel are not the fault of the Israeli people. If I recall, it was Israel's neighbors who started the wars when Israel was first established and if I recall, it is the Palestinians who are committing cowardly suicide attacks, targeting Israeli civilians... Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt struck first, Israel has a right to defend itself.

Is a suicide attack more cowardly than bombing schools and hospitals from an aircraft, I wonder.

Anyway, the Arabs struck first IN 1948. You cannot claim that the 2006 war on Lebanon (including the bombing of areas which weren't controlled by Hezbollah, or the bombing of refugees convoys) are a rightful defense "because they attacked us 58 years ago". Same, you cannot claim that the indiscriminate use of force against highly populated area is a legitimate act of war.

Mind you, Israel has the right to exists. Within the borders accepted by the UN.


As a Jew myself, Western thought on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (a Holocaust survivor) told me... "Never give your full trust to a gentile."


As a gentile myself, Israeli thought on the "gentiles" (expecially left-wing gentiles) have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (an italian socialist partisan) told me... "never expect the Israelis to show any gratitude for those who died while trying to save them from the Nazis".

The simple fact is, there are two sides to this conflict and it is VERY black and white, you're either with one side or you're with the other... If you can't handle that, then avoid the subject.

I've already heard such idiocies.
"Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?" "GOTT MIT UNS" "Credere Obbedire Combattere"

Petty fascism.

A most important point there, Rissottia!

Not every Italian voted for Berlusconi either, companero!

Yay! (that's why I'm making the point in my sig, I don't want to be blamed too much for that: it was a sore blow already)

Hey Rathanan, what's a Jew doing in Alabama? Be caeful about dudes wearing white sheets! (I don't know if I'm being serious or not!)
Chazak ve ematz, anyway. (Be strong and of good courage!)

I had originally posted this on "the mega-thread" but it seems to be being ignored for some reason.

Here is my original post:

Shovrim Shtika, or Breaking the Silence are accounts from former Israeli soldiers

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Not every soldier behaves this way. But every army in the world has soldiers that behave this way.

People can be made to do anything. Many of them suffer internally for the rest of their lives over their own actions.

Anyone with any sense knows that no one group are to blame. In fact in this case the biggest problem is seeing there being two sides.. "the f*'ing Israelis and Palestinians"

The truth is it's just a bunch of people grasping at straws, picking which ever "group" are backing their emotions on that day.

Go ahead and take a side if you wish, and listen to the screams when you tuck in to your dinner and settle down for a quiet night having put the world to rights.

Let's have your thoughts then

Jews started the war in 1916 and they are the ones to blame for all bloodshed that has happened since then. Palestinian Arabs are the victims of a foreign occupation and colonization, they are only defending their right to self-determination which has been withheld from them for 500 years now.

Where did you pluck the 1916 date from, HappyL? Are you referring to the Balfour Declaration where Britain promised Zionists land in Palestine? Why is this "starting a war"?

Most people argue over 1948 and even with this date, Israelis have a reasonable case for saying they they were the ones being attacked. However, Israelis did drive out many of the Palestinians and this was admitted by Yitzak Rabin who helped to do it. This historical point is very much a sensitive issue because it leads to the "right of return" which Palestinians insist on but most Israelis don't want.
Iwish Rabin had not been assassinated by Yigal Amir because we might have had a generation of peace in the Middle East.
But let's not dwell on the missed opportunities....let's look to the future.

Jews started the war in 1916 and they are the ones to blame for all bloodshed that has happened since then. Palestinian Arabs are the victims of a foreign occupation and colonization, they are only defending their right to self-determination which has been withheld from them for 500 years now.

After the "the Palestinians are teh ebil", now a "the Jews are teh ebil".

This thread now officially features BIPARTISAN IDIOCIES.

Are you kidding me? The wars in Israel are not the fault of the Israeli people. If I recall, it was Israel's neighbors who started the wars when Israel was first established and if I recall, it is the Palestinians who are committing cowardly suicide attacks, targeting Israeli civilians... Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt struck first, Israel has a right to defend itself.

It became the fault of the israeli when the idf decided to use cluster ammo against residential areas.
It became the fault of the israeli when the idf decided that targetting schools and hospitals was the way to go
It became the fault of the israeli when they decided to embargo the gaza strip from receiving foodstuffs and medical supplies.

Simple fact: The israeli should get of their stupid high horse, and take responsibility for the suffering they're causing in Gaza and the Westbank

As a Jew myself, Western thought on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have only reenforced the philosophy my grandfather (a Holocaust survivor) told me... "Never give your full trust to a gentile."

The simple fact is, there are two sides to this conflict and it is VERY black and white, you're either with one side or you're with the other... If you can't handle that, then avoid the subject.

And the israeli are making damn sure nobody sane wants to be on their side, arent they?

Hosting a massive Rock Concert with bands from all over the world right in the middle of Jerusalem would break the silence quite well. At the very least it would break the noise ordinance laws.

That is an awesome idea. You should patent it quick. Get them rocking and maybe they will stop rocketing. Give them something else to do.

That is an awesome idea. You should patent it quick. Get them rocking and maybe they will stop rocketing. Give them something else to do.

We can't inflict Bono on them. They've all suffered enough.

Bono's busy with the Obama inaugration so will Sir Bob Geldof do?
(I never could resist an Irish joke!)

Bono's busy with the Obama inaugration so will Sir Bob Geldof do?
(I never could resist an Irish joke!)
And you can't get much a bigger Irish joke than Bono or Saint Bob.

Bono's busy with the Obama inaugration so will Sir Bob Geldof do?
(I never could resist an Irish joke!)

'Sir' Bob can fuck off with himself and all.

And you can't get much a bigger Irish joke than Bono or Saint Bob.

My favorite story about Bono was that during one of his gigs they stopped playing and he started clapping his hands above his head. He told the audience that each time he clapped a child in Africa dies. Some joker shouted out 'well stop clapping then'

Unrelated to the thread but I can never resist the chance to take a pop at Bono

My favorite story about Bono was that during one of his gigs they stopped playing and he started clapping his hands above his head. He told the audience that each time he clapped a child in Africa dies. Some joker shouted out 'well stop clapping then'

Unrelated to the thread but I can never resist the chance to take a pop at Bono
That's awesome!
I still enjoy telling Bono-fans what a total arse he was the time he refused to do a charity concert until they flew - first class mind - his favourite hat over from Ireland for him to wear. He even had the audacity to demand they pay for 2 seats, to stop anyone sitting near his hat.
And yes, the concert was about stopping poverty. Think how many poor wee African children could have been saved with the money doled out onpoor wee Bono's hat?

Sorry bout the threadjack but he's so easy a target.

We can't inflict Bono on them. They've all suffered enough.

I would likely send Berlusconi to Palestine. Maybe Israelis and Palestinians will unite against a single common enemy, and rid us of the psychodwarf for good.

I would likely send Berlusconi to Palestine. Maybe Israelis and Palestinians will unite against a single common enemy, and rid us of the psychodwarf for good.

He's too shiny looking, like somebody put a combined wood stain and varnish on the wee shite...

He's too shiny looking, like somebody put a combined wood stain and varnish on the wee shite...

Isn't he the ideal enemy? A SHINY ugly hateful s.o.b. ... so you can spot him even by night without night goggles!

Let's have your thoughts then
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XIpbVLCzfNM&feature=related (aye I know it's not the proper video)

Watched a video of a vet from Mei Lai massacre in History, and man, he was suffering. He was in a mental institution and they did a sweep across his medications, and it was like a coffee table full of anagelesics. He was shaking as hell. People really do suffer for incredibly stupid, reckless, and filthy decisions.

To be honest with you...

Good. Being haunted by your demons for the rest of your life is the least they deserve for what happened at Mei Lai.

Both sides need other things to do. Some reason to not shoot each other.

Both Israelis and Palestinians like to work and to make money. Hopefully that Saudi $1 billion will get the Gazans working.

Hopefully this recession won't turn into a depression and paeple will keep working - "Idleness is the Devil's playground" and if you aint got nothing, you aint got nothing to lose."
A permanent peace deal should have statehood for Palestine (or the two Palestines), trade and work discussions and I think:
the right of return for Palestinians who can prove their families were driven off from Israel. That should keep Israeli courts in gainful employment for several decades!

Seriously, however, Israel's best long term security is a lasting and just peace that promotes a regional prosperity. It is not impossible - just a remote possibilty now.

Jews started the war in 1916 and they are the ones to blame for all bloodshed that has happened since then. Palestinian Arabs are the victims of a foreign occupation and colonization, they are only defending their right to self-determination which has been withheld from them for 500 years now.

You're an idiot. They are them same people sharing the same ancestral past.
Also, when you say Jews, do you mean all Jews, which ones?... many of them have never arrived because they never left...
Ashkenazi? Sephardic? "Arab" and "Persian" Jews... which Jews do you mean?

How about other Jews around the world who have no interest in the matter...

You know what, I can't even be bothered to waste any more time with you.
I'm just indifferent to you now. [shrugs]

Thanks for this thread, Bird Chasers. Shalom/Salaam.

Shalom/Salaam to you brother.

Probably the nicest post I've received, thank you x

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XIpbVLCzfNM&feature=related (aye I know it's not the proper video)

Nice, thanks.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_xo6syBndKM

Both sides need other things to do. Some reason to not shoot each other.

How about a cook off at a street party - all the mama's home cooking shared ;)