NationStates Jolt Archive

So I was getting drunk and a thought occurred to me.

Is it natural for humans to push the limits? I mean, you see it everywhere; whether it be sports, relationships, personal goals.

My question is, is it natural? Does it date back to competition and being the alpha male, or is it simply something that society has evolved into (keeping up with the jones's)?

On the other hand, is it more natural to be lazy and content with what you have?

Please, discuss. This has really piqued my interest.

As Jurassic Park so elegantly put it...

"If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, expands to new territory, and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously."

Evolutionary instinct as well as the innate drive for knowledge and new experiences that stem from our intelligence are what motivate us to achieve new things. Of course, the real question is how much more we can push those limits without modifying ourselves, and I don't believe that it will be long before we start to alter ourselves to reach levels of performance above and beyond anything biologically possible. The consequences of that are, like any evolutionary trend, invisible except in hindsight.

As Jurassic Park so elegantly put it...

"If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, expands to new territory, and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously."

Evolutionary instinct as well as the innate drive for knowledge and new experiences that stem from our intelligence are what motivate us to achieve new things. Of course, the real question is how much more we can push those limits without modifying ourselves, and I don't believe that it will be long before we start to alter ourselves to reach levels of performance above and beyond anything biologically possible. The consequences of that are, like any evolutionary trend, invisible except in hindsight.
http://ecoworldly.com/2008/10/07/scientists-discover-fish-in-act-of-evolution-in-africas-greatest-lake/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090105/sc_nm/us_darwin_iguana

Whatwhat?
http://www.videostatic.com/photos/uncategorized/samwell_butt.jpg

I think separating instinct from the rest in humans will be opinion. There is a conscious and a subconscious, but they're not totally separated. I would say that, philosophically, if you're going to ask what humans pushing themselves means, you might as well consider a broader idea. I've read a book that presents the interesting idea that matter and energy has the propensity to become more complex as time passes. Such as the process between the big bang and consciousness, if both were made of matter and energy.

Theme song for this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhsTmiK7Q2M

And it all started cuz of some dude gettin drunk. I think all good ideas start that way.

And also all bad ones.

Its natural, but a large proportion of these people were not meant to survive. Sadly safety equipment has stopped people like base jumpers ending up as bloody smears on the pavement.

We've been pushing boundaries and testing limits since we appeared on this planet; its in our nature.

We've been pushing boundaries and testing limits since we appeared on this planet; its in our nature.

But see this is the fuzzy part.

Take sports for example, we'll say american football. Do those athletes push themselves for their own sake, or is it to be the best and earn money? Or does that boil down to being natural? But if it is natural aren't humans inherently greedy no matter what?

There's a lot of angles to this...

I think separating instinct from the rest in humans will be opinion. There is a conscious and a subconscious, but they're not totally separated. I would say that, philosophically, if you're going to ask what humans pushing themselves means, you might as well consider a broader idea. I've read a book that presents the interesting idea that matter and energy has the propensity to become more complex as time passes. Such as the process between the big bang and consciousness, if both were made of matter and energy.

What's the name of that book if you don't mind me asking? It sounds pretty interesting.

What other broader ideas do you have?

But see this is the fuzzy part.

Take sports for example, we'll say american football. Do those athletes push themselves for their own sake, or is it to be the best and earn money? Or does that boil down to being natural? But if it is natural aren't humans inherently greedy no matter what?

There's a lot of angles to this...

Most of those athletes play American Football because they love American Football, and they want to be the best; but you are right, the money ain't half bad... in the end its probably a mix of both, but regardless they are pushing their limits with every play, that's why so many of them retire and basically become crippled in a few years time afterward.

But what i was trying to say is humanity, as a species, is always pushing the limits of things, raising the bar, and trying to achieve the impossible; like getting to the moon, exploring the oceans, and etc. The first time a proto-human picked up a stick and sharpened the end, we began pushing the limits.

Now where do you guys think the instinct of self-preservation comes into play? Why do we ignore it and do stupid things to ourselves?

Darwinism? Is that what evolution is all about? Or is it just greed and wanting to be the best, so we put instinct aside?

Now where do you guys think the instinct of self-preservation comes into play? Why do we ignore it and do stupid things to ourselves?

Darwinism? Is that what evolution is all about? Or is it just greed and wanting to be the best, so we put instinct aside?

Why did Hitler push it so hard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfgn2lOSx6M

Now where do you guys think the instinct of self-preservation comes into play? Why do we ignore it and do stupid things to ourselves?

Darwinism? Is that what evolution is all about? Or is it just greed and wanting to be the best, so we put instinct aside?

It's risk/reward. We instinctively want to stay safe, but we'll also instinctively risk our lives if we believe the reward will be worth it. It's like this scenerio:
you are living in the stone age. do you:
a. go after your potentially dangerous prey to ensure more food for your tribe?
b. risk your life invading another tribe to take their food?
c. don't risk your life with a or b and risk starving to death in the event of another famine?

What does the stone age have to do with today? Evolution is slower than you think. Most, if not all, of our instincts developed thousands, even millions of years ago. We eat meat because farming developed too late to make much of an inpact on our biology evolution-wise. People are willing to attack others who are different because until relatively recently, food wasn't as plentiful and it was either kill the competition or starve to death.

http://ecoworldly.com/2008/10/07/scientists-discover-fish-in-act-of-evolution-in-africas-greatest-lake/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090105/sc_nm/us_darwin_iguana

Whatwhat?
http://www.videostatic.com/photos/uncategorized/samwell_butt.jpg

That's pretty cool.

Of course, it's still a pretty rare phenomenon to actually see macroevolution in action; it's visible in bacteria and fruit flies, as experiments have shown, but you don't really see speciation or the long-term changes of macroevolution in most complex organisms except through the fossil record and genetic analysis.

Most of those athletes play American Football because they love American Football, and they want to be the best; but you are right, the money ain't half bad... in the end its probably a mix of both,

A lot of people push themselves hard for games they won't even make any money for. I'm not convinced that money is why footballers (for example) push the limit. (If it were, college football would be boring, right?)

Why did Hitler push it so hard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfgn2lOSx6M
Because the package kept getting caught in that little mail slot. They really should make those things bigger.

So I was getting drunk and a thought occurred to me.

Is it natural for humans to push the limits? I mean, you see it everywhere; whether it be sports, relationships, personal goals.

My question is, is it natural? Does it date back to competition and being the alpha male, or is it simply something that society has evolved into (keeping up with the jones's)?

On the other hand, is it more natural to be lazy and content with what you have?

Please, discuss. This has really piqued my interest.

I think both are natural, and its a false dichotomy.

What's the name of that book if you don't mind me asking? It sounds pretty interesting.

What other broader ideas do you have?

It is called Phenomenon of Man by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The content in the book could elaborate better than me, but what I said is how I understood a basic point in it.

I think it's because humans will act more extreme when in a group of peers to make themselves appear cooler or more in tune with group norms, so inevitably people will try to impress others.

however people don't do as many extreme things as the mass media and internet would have you believe, think about what you're doing now it's not even remotely extreme yet millions if not billions also use the internets.
for every extreme act i could count untold billions of dull and boring ones, the extreme ones however attract more attention and as a result will seem to occur more than other less interesting ones.

however i should point out it depends on the individual on what you'd count as an extreme or risky move, alot of it can be culture specific or even gender specific.

I'm telling you, it's all risk/reward. If we believe the reward is worth it, we'll take the risk. Our ancestors needed to take risks to catch their protein because those animals wouldn't die without a fight. Many cavemen were slaughtered by their food, but it sure beat slowly starving to death like the wusses that were scared of a little goring here and trampling to death there.

I'm telling you, it's all risk/reward. If we believe the reward is worth it, we'll take the risk. Our ancestors needed to take risks to catch their protein because those animals wouldn't die without a fight. Many cavemen were slaughtered by their food, but it sure beat slowly starving to death like the wusses that were scared of a little goring here and trampling to death there.

yeah but if they kept on hunting for food even if it was extreme eventually it wouldn't seem risky at all eventually.
for example crossing the road could be considered risky, i mean you're only a few metres from many tonnes of metal roaring past you at or over 30 MPH, but if i suggested crossing the road as risky i'd be laughed at. It really does depend on the context and which culture this behaviour is set in.

yeah but if they kept on hunting for food even if it was extreme eventually it wouldn't seem risky at all eventually.
for example crossing the road could be considered risky, i mean you're only a few metres from many tonnes of metal roaring past you at or over 30 MPH, but if i suggested crossing the road as risky i'd be laughed at. It really does depend on the context and which culture this behaviour is set in.

If it keeps killing your friends, then it's still risky. It's like how our species has always waged war against itself, but being shot and killed by the enemy is still considered risky.

If it keeps killing your friends, then it's still risky. It's like how our species has always waged war against itself, but being shot and killed by the enemy is still considered risky.

i ain't at war with nobody, and i ain't gonna be if i can help it.
understandably being shot by another person is indeed risky, but slightly less risky if you shoot them first and accurately.

i ain't at war with nobody, and i ain't gonna be if i can help it.
understandably being shot by another person is indeed risky, but slightly less risky if you shoot them first and accurately.

It only takes a single incident to turn even the biggest pacifist into an enraged homocidal maniac. Maybe it's someone sleeping with your mate. Maybe it's someone turning off your Zeppelin. Maybe it's one of those smug Scientologist assholes from Xenuland that sleep with your mate, turn off your Zeppelin, and make Anpu cry. And you just want to tackle them, rip out their intestines, and use said intestines to strangle them as you punch them in the face.

Then they launch the Tom Cruise missiles, turning a friendly game of strangling your enemies with their intestines into a full-scale war. And when their cities are leveled, their crops burning, their water supply poisoned, and their noise polluted with the worst crime against humanity Country Music has to offer, we'll see who's laughing. And standing. And breathing.