NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7815896.stm

Afghan foetus 'aborted by razor'
By Martin Vennard
BBC News

The family of a 14-year-old Afghan rape victim face prosecution after her foetus was removed without anaesthetic.

The mother and brother of the girl are accused of cutting her open with a razor blade to perform an abortion.

Doctors say the girl is in a critical condition. A man accused of raping her is under arrest, officials say.

Rape victims and their families in Afghanistan often feel ashamed to report what has happened because people may think the victim consented to sex.

Sex outside marriage is illegal in Afghanistan.

'Dog bite'

The governor of Bamiyan Province, Habiba Sarabi, says that action is being taken.

When the girl was five months pregnant it is alleged her mother and brother took her to a stables and cut her open with a razor blade.

They removed the foetus, which they buried, before stitching up her wound, Governor Sarabi said.

The father eventually took the girl to get medical treatment.

Dr Ghulam Mohammad Nader, head of Bamiyan hospital, said the girl is in a critical condition, but that she had been able to explain what had happened to her.

"The girl stayed at home for three or four days in her condition until her father took her to hospital," Dr Nader said.

"He said a dog had bitten her so that people in the area wouldn't know what had really happened."

The provincial governor says the man accused of raping the girl has been arrested and that police are trying to arrest her mother and brother.

The victims of rape and their families in Afghanistan are often afraid to admit what has happened to them because of the stigma and shame attached to the issue.

Sometimes the victims are murdered by their own families.

Critics accuse the authorities of not taking accusations of rape seriously, especially those made by children.

But President Karzai recently called for rapists to be brought to justice and the Afghan Supreme Court suspended three judges who acquitted people accused of rape.

No doubt many people's first reaction would be "It's horrible that an abortion happened!"

They'd be missing the point.

Obviously this wouldn't have happened if rape and such didn't hold the sheer stigma it does in Afghanistan. If abortions were legal and sex outside of marriage was not illegal, she probably would have at least been able to visit some kind of medical clinic and get an abortion properly.

Regardless, it's one of many sad stories from this part of the world.

God, Im just happy that theyre prosecuting the family and the rapist, and the victim hasnt been stoned yet. This is probably the first time that has happened in the Middle East.

God, Im just happy that theyre prosecuting the family and the rapist, and the victim hasnt been stoned yet. This is probably the first time that has happened in the Middle East.

Indeed, because unfortunately, in the Arab world, the rape is usually the female's fault. I even read that, in order to prove rape, there must be 1 or 2 male witnesses, all of them practicing Muslims in order for the rape accusation to proceed.

God, Im just happy that theyre prosecuting the family and the rapist, and the victim hasnt been stoned yet. This is probably the first time that has happened in the Middle East.

Took the words out of my mouth.

Did the girl even consent to the abortion? She has a choice, or should at least. It's bad enough her body was violated by a person, but to be subject to a crude abortion is salting the wound.

Honostly, I can deal with abortion being illegal there atm in light of the whole actually arresting the family and rapist and not killing the victim. Hell, theyre even giving her medical treatment and the doctor didnt call her a whore. Baby steps.

Did the girl even consent to the abortion? She has a choice, or should at least. It's bad enough her body was violated by a person, but to be subject to a crude abortion is salting the wound.

Perhaps she didn't have a choice. In those cultures, shame is a strong factor in driving people to do what they do. And if the abortion was ordered by the father or one of the older males of the family, the girl had no choice but to go through with it.

Perhaps she didn't have a choice. In those cultures, shame is a strong factor in driving people to do what they do. And if the abortion was ordered by the father or one of the older males of the family, the girl had no choice but to go through with it.

Are you aware that you have a custom title now?

I never get anything special...

Perhaps she didn't have a choice. In those cultures, shame is a strong factor in driving people to do what they do. And if the abortion was ordered by the father or one of the older males of the family, the girl had no choice but to go through with it.

Then there's this....^

Are you aware that you have a custom title now?

I never get anything special...

Yes, I'm aware of it.

Here's a Wiki article describing what's needed in order to prove rape in the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam#Rape

...the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims. It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses.

A lot of people (especially on NSG) make the odd assumption that the whole world is full of people who live, breathe, and believe the ideals of Western Civilization, when in actuality, most of the world lives in the 9th Century...

Did the girl even consent to the abortion? She has a choice, or should at least. It's bad enough her body was violated by a person, but to be subject to a crude abortion is salting the wound.

She's 14. I thought you actually don't have a choice if you're a minor. :confused:

Edit: That doesn't read right - I meant parental consent is needed also.

A lot of people (especially on NSG) make the odd assumption that the whole world is full of people who live, breathe, and believe the ideals of Western Civilization, when in actuality, most of the world lives in the 9th Century...
I thought most of the world lived in the PRC.

I thought most of the world lived in the PRC.

Nope. Total People In World - Total Chinese in PRC > Total Chinese in PRC

Anybody going to defend this? Anyone? Come on, you know you want to.

Anybody going to defend this? Anyone? Come on, you know you want to.

I'm sure that Knights of Liberty will call you a racist for pointing out that "brown people" are backwards. While that isn't defending it, it's certainly implying that we should tolerate ignorance on a wide scale out of respect for brown people.

I'm sure that Knights of Liberty will call you a racist for pointing out that "brown people" are backwards. While that isn't defending it, it's certainly implying that we should tolerate ignorance on a wide scale out of respect for brown people.

I'm almost positive that they'll find a way to blame Bush, and it'll be a long, winding string of dubious links that reads like "The House that Jack Built".

I'm sure that Knights of Liberty will call you a racist for pointing out that "brown people" are backwards. While that isn't defending it, it's certainly implying that we should tolerate ignorance on a wide scale out of respect for brown people.

Oh, flamebait. Cute.

See my first post. Sorry to disappoint.

I'm almost positive that they'll find a way to blame Bush, and it'll be a long, winding string of dubious links that reads like "The House that Jack Built".

What are you on?

I'm sure that Knights of Liberty will call you a racist for pointing out that "brown people" are backwards.

I'll call you a racist troll because that's exactly what you just did and that's exactly what you are.

Interestingly enough FO is also a racist troll, which is why you and he are bonding so enormously.

I'll call you a racist troll because that's exactly what you just did and that's exactly what you are.

Interestingly enough FO is also a racist troll, which is why you and he are bonding so enormously.

So, backwards people cutting open their own daughters with razors isn't backwards? You actually support this activity then?

So, backwards people cutting open their own daughters with razors isn't backwards? You actually support this activity then?

Don't feed FO. Really. Do we need to make this thread into a flame-fest?

So, backwards people cutting open their own daughters with razors isn't backwards? You actually support this activity then?

So, you're going to continue trolling in an attempt to prove me right? Cool.

Cleanup in aisle 12! We've got a thread spill!

Don't feed FO. Really. Do we need to make this thread into a flame-fest?

I'm asking a logical question, not calling anyone names.

I'm asking a logical question, not calling anyone names.

You're calling a certain demographic 'backwards'. Don't you think there may be Muslim people around the forum that can take offense to yours and FO's remarks?

/sigh

I'm asking a logical question, not calling anyone names.

Oh yeah, great "logic." "You've pointed out my behavior pattern of trolling along racist lines.... THEREFORE YOU SUPPORT RAZOR ABORTIONS RIGHT?"

Don't feed FO. Really. Do we need to make this thread into a flame-fest?

DK apperantly feels the need to try and take snipes at me, that are not really founded in reality. Notice how when I pointed him to my first post, he stopped his "KOL WILL DEFEND THIS LOLS!" crap?

You're calling a certain demographic 'backwards'. Don't you think there may be Muslim people around the forum that can take offense to yours and FO's remarks?

/sigh

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor = backwards

I don't know what dictionary you're using.

You're calling a certain demographic 'backwards'.

Yes. The Afghans. I gotta tell you, I have heard nothing out of that country that could be considered civilised or enlightened.

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor = backwards

I don't know what dictionary you're using.

Kimchi, seriously. Trying to sustain a civilized debate with you is almost impossible.

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor = backwards

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor =/= everyone who shares your culture and nationality is 'backwards.'

I don't know what dictionary you're using.

We can add that to the list of Shit You Don't Know (And Probably Never Will). It's a long list.

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor =/= everyone who shares your culture and nationality is 'backwards.'

If this was an isolated incident, I'd agree.

If this was an isolated incident, I'd agree.

Oh, so Im sure you can find me many more cases of razor abortions in the Middle East?

Oh, so Im sure you can find me many more cases of razor abortions in the Middle East?

It's not abortion, but I'm sure female genital mutilation qualifies.

Oh, so Im sure you can find me many more cases of razor abortions in the Middle East?

I can find you many more cases of barbarism.

So, you're going to continue trolling in an attempt to prove me right? Cool.

That wasn't trolling. He asked you a question, which you dodged. He's right. They're backwards.

I like how you two switch between denying that you're racists, and trying to argue that everyone in the Middle East is a subhuman, baby-killing barbarian. Flip-flopping is adorable.

I'm sure that Knights of Liberty will call you a racist for pointing out that "brown people" are backwards. While that isn't defending it, it's certainly implying that we should tolerate ignorance on a wide scale out of respect for brown people.
Calling 'brown people' backwards because of the actions of one small set of 'brown people' is racist.

Yes. The Afghans. I gotta tell you, I have heard nothing out of that country that could be considered civilised or enlightened.
Then you've not heard of the Bamyan Buddhas, the Minaret of Jam (a UNESCO world heritage site, and awesomely-titled monument), Afghan (Persian) poetry, and many other things.

Then you've not heard of the Bamyan Buddhas (now sadly destroyed) the Minaret of Jam (a UNESCO world heritage site), Afghan (Persian) poetry, and many other things.

that implies that in the past, they were civilized.

And now they are not.

Then you've not heard of the Bamyan Buddhas (now sadly destroyed) the Minaret of Jam (a UNESCO world heritage site), Afghan (Persian) poetry, and many other things.

Thanks for proving my point.

That wasn't trolling. He asked you a question, which you dodged.

I don't have to answer "SO YOU SUPPORT ABORTION USING RAZOR BLADES RIGHT?" It is a clear ad hominem fallacy and not in any way "logical." It was flamebait at best.

He's right.

Nope, but you can console yourself with being just as wrong as him.

They're backwards.

Oh that's convincing. "They're backwards." Well shit, why didn't anyone tell me before, that's all I need! SIEG HEIL!

I like how you two switch between denying that you're racists, and trying to argue that everyone in the Middle East is a subhuman, baby-killing barbarian. Flip-flopping is adorable.

I don't believe I ever denied being racist.

Oh that's convincing.

So do you not think they're backwards? Of course they are. I'm not saying every Afghani is, but these people certainly are.

Thanks for proving my point.

Actually when they inspected the remains of the Buddhas, they found an even bigger collection of art treasures hidden inside that the Taliban brilliantly missed out on. So he's still right Potato Boy.

Now you can go back to wet dreaming of the good old days of Bush. Blair and Howard, okee?

That wasn't trolling. He asked you a question, which you dodged. He's right. They're backwards.

The backwards comment is racist. And calling them 'brown' even more so. This people aren't backwards. They're just culturally different.

The backwards comment is racist. And calling them 'brown' even more so. This people aren't backwards. They're just culturally different.

They just have a funny legal system that makes every raped woman a slut, unless she can get four witnesses to prove otherwise.

So do you not think they're backwards? Of course they are. I'm not saying every Afghani is, but these people certainly are.

No one is talking about "these" people in particular.

No, it's just, "They're backwards." A nice big vague generalization, and clearly a racist one... FO admits he is a racist.

How about you Hotwife, you going to be as honest as your partner in crime?

The backwards comment is racist. And calling them 'brown' even more so. This people aren't backwards. They're just culturally different.

Culturally different? Oh come on, they're backwards. Does this song like something that'd happen in a decent country? No. The people that did this are backwards.

The backwards comment is racist. And calling them 'brown' even more so. This people aren't backwards. They're just culturally different.

No, this family in question is backwards. And some of their "culturally different" practices are vile. Ill be the first to admit that.

But many times its a result of their theocracies and not their race.

Actually when they inspected the remains of the Buddhas, they found an even bigger collection of art treasures hidden inside that the Taliban brilliantly missed out on. So he's still right Potato Boy.

... Seriously? So, because the Taliban failed to destroy some art, suddenly they're all civilised?

Slicing up your own daughter with a razor = backwards

I don't know what dictionary you're using.

Considering you've openly discussed dropping biological agents and nuclear weaponry on Muslim populations as if they were perfectly logical solutions to a puzzle Kimchi, you stating that the slicing up of one barbaric is pretty damn disingenuous.

Oh by the way, Jim Carrey's still demanding royalties from all the Ace Ventura impressions you've done over the years here on NSG.

No, this family in questionin backwards. And some of their "culturally different" practices are vile. Ill be the first to admit that.

But many times its a result of their theocracies and not their race.

I never said it was because of their race. I said it was because of their culture.

They just have a funny legal system that makes every raped woman a slut, unless she can get four witnesses to prove otherwise.

You do realize we're judging this people according to our cultural views, right KoL? That's horrendous. And in doing so, we're no better than the mother and brother who took this teen into a barn and opened her belly with a razor to perform an abortion.

No, it's just, "They're backwards."

They being the people that did this.

Culturally different? Oh come on, they're backwards. Does this song like something that'd happen in a decent country?

True that. Horrific acts of violence do not occur in decent, White, Christian countries. Ever. Also in fantasy wonderland, every Afghani did this incident because they all share the hive mind and personal responsibility means nothing to me.

No. The people that did this are backwards.

Your blindness does not translate into anyone else's backwardness.

Thanks for proving my point.
Your point, presumeably, that a cabal of dictatorial religious freaks a 'backwards' society does not make?

Of course, you wouldn't be tarring a whole set of people with one brush, would you?

... Seriously? So, because the Taliban failed to destroy some art, suddenly they're all civilised?

I think they're saying that in the distant past, whoever lived there was civilized.

Not the people who live there now.

... Seriously? So, because the Taliban failed to destroy some art, suddenly they're all civilised?

And of course you're implying that backwards dumbfucks like the Taliban comprise the population of the Middle East as a whole.

Go back to your Romper Stompers fantasy.

You do realize we're judging this people according to our cultural views, right KoL? That's horrendous. And in doing so, we're no better than the mother and brother who took this teen into a barn and opened her belly with a razor to perform an abortion.

So, because I believe that their culture is backwards because it validates and accepts this sought of behaviour... I'm now a butcher?

You do realize we're judging this people according to our cultural views, right KoL? That's horrendous. And in doing so, we're no better than the mother and brother who took this teen into a barn and opened her belly with a razor to perform an abortion.

But they're just following their culture. So obviously, they're perfectly good people, right? They didn't do anything wrong at all, right?

Or are you judging them according to your own cultural views?

And of course you're implying that backwards dumbfucks like the Taliban comprise the population of the Middle East as a whole.

Go back to your Romper Stompers fantasy.

A lot of people with backwards Islamic beliefs populate the Middle East.

See my comment on female genital mutilation.

And of course you're implying that backwards dumbfucks like the Taliban comprise the population of the Middle East as a whole.

Go back to your Romper Stompers fantasy.

Not ALL of it. Just MOST of it.

You do realize we're judging this people according to our cultural views, right KoL? That's horrendous. And in doing so, we're no better than the mother and brother who took this teen into a barn and opened her belly with a razor to perform an abortion.

What? According to our cultural views? No. According to our moral views. Just because their culture says they can do this, that doesn't make it right. Their culture could say 1 + 1 = 85, that doesn't make it right.

They being the people that did this.

'They' being all Afghans or all people in the Middle East or all 'brown people.' I've actually been reading this thread you know.

God, Im just happy that theyre prosecuting the family and the rapist, and the victim hasnt been stoned yet. This is probably the first time that has happened in the Middle East.

I find it ironic that you would accuse Hotwife of racism when you seem to be indulging in some generalisation yourself.

Indeed, because unfortunately, in the Arab world, the rape is usually the female's fault. I even read that, in order to prove rape, there must be 1 or 2 male witnesses, all of them practicing Muslims in order for the rape accusation to proceed.

You seem to switch from Arab to Islamic halfway through your paragraph here. Which one are you discussing?

It's not abortion, but I'm sure female genital mutilation qualifies.

FGM is common in Afghanistan? This is what I had heard from Afghan feminists. I knew it was common amongst people of various religions around Eritrea, but that's far away from Afghanistan.

No, this family in question is backwards. And some of their "culturally different" practices are vile. Ill be the first to admit that.

But many times its a result of their theocracies and not their race.

This.^

We're judging an entire culture for what one family did to one of it's members. That's unfair.

Not the people who live there now.
Because all the people who live in Afghanistan are the same, yes?

I find it ironic that you would accuse Hotwife of racism when you seem to be indulging in some generalisation yourself.



You seem to switch from Arab to Islamic halfway through your paragraph here. Which one are you discussing?



FGM is common in Afghanistan? This is what I had heard from Afghan feminists. I knew it was common amongst people of various religions around Eritrea, but that's far away from Afghanistan.

You'll find it as far away as Morocco, in the Sudan - generally speaking in most rural Islamic areas, or any countries where Salafism has taken root.

This.^

We're judging an entire culture for what one family did to one of it's members. That's unfair.

It's not like this is a one off. This sort of shit happens all the time. Not just forced abortions, but executions for non-crimes, terrorism, all that crap.

But they're just following their culture. So obviously, they're perfectly good people, right? They didn't do anything wrong at all, right?

Or are you judging them according to your own cultural views?

No, I'm not judging them because of my own cultural views. What this family did to their daughter is horrible. But just because this family did that doesn't mean we are entitled to judge every single person in Afghanistan as if they were all 'backwards', as some people have implied.

I find it ironic that you would accuse Hotwife of racism when you seem to be indulging in some generalisation yourself.


It is a bit of a generalization, but one based in reality. Are you going to deny that most of the time in the Middle East, rape victims are murdered while their rapists recieve little to no punishment? Are you going to deny that Honor Killings are a reality?

True that. Horrific acts of violence do not occur in decent, White, Christian countries. I didn't say horrific acts of violence, did I? Maybe you should retake reading comprehension. I also didn't say White Christian countries. I said decent countries.

Also in fantasy wonderland, every Afghani did this incident because they all share the hive mind and personal responsibility means nothing to me.

In your fantasy wonderland, you think I said that. In reality, I said this family are backwards. You fail.

You'll find it as far away as Morocco, in the Sudan - generally speaking in most rural Islamic areas, or any countries where Salafism has taken root.

Prove it.

You seem to switch from Arab to Islamic halfway through your paragraph here. Which one are you discussing?

Islamic world.

It is a bit of a generalization, but one based in reality. Are you going to deny that most of the time in the Middle East, rape victims are murdered while their rapists recieve little to no punishment? Are you going to deny that Honor Killings are a reality?

Prove it.

Islamic world.

Does Afghanistan currently follow Islamic law as you have described it?

Prove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Prevalence

Prove it.

Prove what? That honor killings are a reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Middle_East
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.


Does Afghanistan currently follow Islamic law as you have described it?

Not since the removal of the Taliban.

... Seriously? So, because the Taliban failed to destroy some art, suddenly they're all civilised?

I can see the Taliban's point of view for wanting to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas.

The Taliban originally wanted to develop a tourist site at the Buddha statue to earn income. Then some Swedish "philanthropists" offered a huge sum of money to renovate the Buddhas. The Taliban said that the money was better spent on orphanages and food, rather than an all-out renovation of the statues.

But the Swedes refused to fork over the money UNLESS it was spent solely on renovation, while hungry people in the countryside starved. The Taliban, being religious fanatics, were offended that the Swedes were so obsessed with what they (the Taliban) saw as an idolatrous stone statue while showing no pity for Afghan people. The Taliban therefore demolished the statues as a "Screw-you" to the materialistic Westerners. Arguably, what the Taliban did was childish, but I can fully see their perspective. The people glorifying the inanimate Buddha statues were not exactly on a moral high ground, when so many people were starving and suffering all over Afghanistan and needed attending to.

All in all, the Taliban were probably a positive cultural influence on Afghanistan (and I'm sure I'll be arrested per the PATRIOT Act for saying this). One thing the Taliban did right was suppress the pederasty and pedophilia that is common in traditional Pashtun society. The fundamentalist Taliban and its element of foreign Arab fighters and religious hajjis frowned on the child rape that was quite prevalent in Pashtun society. Supposedly, pederasty is making a comeback in Afghanistan now that the Taliban has been removed from power. So George W. Bush will go down in history as the man who spread pederasty in Afghanistan and eradicated Christianity from Iraq (as Saddam Hussein protected Christians from persecution by their Shi'ite neighbors) :tongue:

What? According to our cultural views? No. According to our moral views. Just because their culture says they can do this, that doesn't make it right. Their culture could say 1 + 1 = 85, that doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it right, for us. I'm not taking off any importance to what happened to this 14 year old. She went through hell, her life's at stake because of what her family did to her. But to her family, and according to their culture, to what the prospect of shame drives them to do, they're not backwards. I'm sure the mother thinks she did the right thing. That we morally think it wrong is another thing.

All in all, the Taliban were probably a positive cultural influence on Afghanistan.

And then, Trilateral's credibility spontaneously combusted.

Does Afghanistan currently follow Islamic law as you have described it?

Last time I checked, they followed the precepts of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#Religions

It's not like this is a one off. This sort of shit happens all the time. Not just forced abortions, but executions for non-crimes, terrorism, all that crap.
Yes. Theocracies suck. You'll find few on here disagreeing with that.

Point is, labelling 'brown people', or Afghanis, or the entire Middle East as 'backwards' because of the actions of a set of 'brown people', Afghanis or people in the Middle East is obviously wrong.

And instead of us focusing on the terrible acts of rape and poor abortion techniques, we have to deal with your simpering posts.

And then, Trilateral's credibility spontaneously combusted.

The internet is not the best way to express such things but my comments were made tongue-in-cheek;)

I didn't say horrific acts of violence, did I?

No, you were vague, but I assume you were referring to the horrific violence of this act, and I assume you agree that this act was both horrific and violent, and I assume you would agree that horrific acts of violence are abhorrent.

But maybe you could explain what exactly you did mean instead.

Maybe you should retake reading comprehension. I also didn't say White Christian countries. I said decent countries.

Do explain the difference.

In your fantasy wonderland, you think I said that. In reality, I said this family are backwards. You fail.

You never specified "this family." You said "these people" and used it to make a moral judgment about the entire country.

You must think I'm pretty stupid if you expect this paltry half-assed 'argument' to fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Prevalence

Okay. So your link clearly shows that FGM is not prevalent throughout the Middle East. So your previous claim about FGM in Afghanistan was wrong.

Prove what? That honor killings are a reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Middle_East
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

Not since the removal of the Taliban.

How about proving "that most of the time in the Middle East, rape victims are murdered while their rapists recieve little to no punishment", as you claimed.

If Afghanistan is no longer following that bit of Islamic law, then people going on about the Islamic menace and its oppression of women are talking about something irrelevant.

Okay. So your link clearly shows that FGM is not prevalent throughout the Middle East. So your previous claim about FGM in Afghanistan was wrong.

You forgot the part about secrecy behind FGM.



How about proving "that most of the time in the Middle East, rape victims are murdered while their rapists recieve little to no punishment", as you claimed.

If Afghanistan is no longer following that bit of Islamic law, then people going on about the Islamic menace and its oppression of women are talking about something irrelevant.

Wow, I didn't post that. But I did post that it's nearly impossible for a woman to come forward and prove she was raped. It would take four witnesses to prove it - because her word is not worth as much as a man's.

And if she comes forward and says she was raped, and can't prove it, she's a slut, and that's punishable.

Sharia law - it's all in there.

How about proving "that most of the time in the Middle East, rape victims are murdered while their rapists recieve little to no punishment", as you claimed.

If Afghanistan is no longer following that bit of Islamic law, then people going on about the Islamic menace and its oppression of women are talking about something irrelevant.

Actually, Islam condems violence towards rape victims.

According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam#Honor_killings

You forgot the part about secrecy behind FGM.


And you secretly have access to the Real Information.:rolleyes:

Wow, I didn't post that.

That's why it has KoL's name. You're so smart!

But I did post that it's nearly impossible for a woman to come forward and prove she was raped. It would take four witnesses to prove it - because her word is not worth as much as a man's.

And if she comes forward and says she was raped, and can't prove it, she's a slut, and that's punishable.

Sharia law - it's all in there.

Except Afghanistan doesn't follow Sharia law, so this is irrelevant.

Except Afghanistan doesn't follow Sharia law, so this is irrelevant.

Depends on which part of the country you're in. If you're keeping up with the news, you'll find that the Taliban are resurgent in some areas. Sharia applies there.

Sharia law - it's all in there.
Depending on your interpretation of Sharia.

Your statement is akin to saying, "sacrificing one's child to God. The Bible - it's all in there." People interpret the Bible, and Sharia law, in vastly different ways.

You forgot the part about secrecy behind FGM. And you've ignored that FGM is most common (http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9276.htm) in sub-saharan Africa, not the Middle East. In particular, the most horrific forms are almost exclusively practiced in sub-saharan African and among sub-saharan African immigrants/refugess in other countries. While it's true that a completely accurate counting is difficult to come by, it is nonetheless also true that enough NGOs working on the ground in these various countries have been able to gather enough evidence to make better estimates, based on more proof, than you have in your statement.

Wow, I didn't post that. But I did post that it's nearly impossible for a woman to come forward and prove she was raped. It would take four witnesses to prove it - because her word is not worth as much as a man's.

And if she comes forward and says she was raped, and can't prove it, she's a slut, and that's punishable.
You seem to be discussing a legal process...so please give evidence of the punishment women in Afghanistan face legally if they cannot prove they have been raped.

Sharia law - it's all in there.The above post sums up my position on this vague and pointless statement.

Depends on which part of the country you're in. If you're keeping up with the news, you'll find that the Taliban are resurgent in some areas. Sharia applies there.

And even then, aren't there parts of Sharia/Islamic provisions in the country's laws?

Locked. This was getting out of hand. My Moddy-Sense is tinglin' and that ain't good. Too many border-line posts.