NationStates Jolt Archive

Now after religion in US, lets look at Europe:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Eurobarometer_poll.png

I guess we can call "Belief in a spirit or life force" deism and assume that believers in god support abrahamic religions? In any case, atheists seem to be minorities in all countries. Deism (?) seems to be common in Northern Europe, altho I would assume most people dont know what deism means. What do you guys think?

PS: I think no belief includes agnostics and not just atheists?

I think that most of the people we would maybe identify as "deists" would identify themselves as Christians.

Deism (?) seems to be common in Northern Europe, altho I would assume most people dont know what deism means. What do you guys think?
Sounds about right.

Most you talk to believe "something is out there".

Deism=Belief in a deity/deities.

Xianity believes in a deity, God
Hindu believes in deities, whatever all of their names are

And on another note, I've found that most atheists know more about Xianity than Xians do, so I don't give the Xians much credit on their beliefs

What do you guys think?France looks pretty good for me. :p

France looks pretty good for me. :p

that is not a sentence that I hear often.

Yep. I'm guessing your IQ is also higher than most people's (Gauntlet)

Statistically, the higher your IQ, the more likely you to be atheist

that is not a sentence that I hear often.I know.

After I said it, I was, like, "Wtf? Did I really just say that?"

Kagetora;14372493']Deism=Belief in a deity/deities.

Xianity believes in a deity, God
Hindu believes in deities, whatever all of their names are


Nope,

"Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation found in many Christian[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

So practicing christians and hindus wouldnt be deists, tho they are theists, xtians being monotheists.

I know.

After I said it, I was, like, "Wtf? Did I really just say that?"

Put down the pipe and think about it my friend. ;)

Kagetora;14372499']Yep. I'm guessing your IQ is also higher than most people's (Gauntlet)The official test that I got when my parents took me to the hospital to determine if I had ADD/ADHD or not said I had an IQ of 147.

The Interwebs tells me I have an IQ of 112. :p

Kagetora;14372499']
Statistically, the higher your IQ, the more likely you to be atheist

Source?

whatever...

Kagetora;14372513']whatever...

that's not a very reliable source.

I think that most of the people we would maybe identify as "deists" would identify themselves as Christians.

I doubt it, I'd say those listed as deists would be better described as 'vaguely believe' and I'd say they were practicing atheists, if such a term could be used. That is, they don't follow any church, thoughts of a god don't much enter their lives but, when questioned, they'll say they guess there's something out there.

Also, I wonder how much that list corresponds with most corrupt countries as well, not saying there's a correlation as such but...

that's not a very reliable source.

Its like your mom saying according to statistics, crime rate in halifax is 50 times higher than the national avarage so dont walk alone at night lol.

Europe does seem more secular to me than USA does, but I could be wrong.

Its like your mom saying according to statistics, crime rate in halifax is 50 times higher than the national avarage so dont walk alone at night lol.

might as well have said the good old "because I said so".

France looks pretty good for me. :p

Maybe that no belief section is mostly agnostic?

The "whatever" was in response to the definition of Deist

Here are a few sources

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
http://abrahadabra.net/2008/06/13/high-iq-implies-atheism/

might as well have said the good old "because I said so".

No, those statistics are correct, she reads them in some newspaper. :D

No, those statistics are correct, she reads them in some newspaper. :D

and newspapers speak only the truth. Not once has a newspaper ever lied, or printed false information.

Maybe that no belief sections is mostly agnostic?Doesn't matter. I just want to travel around France for a bit. :D

Kagetora;14372529']The "whatever" was in response to the definition of Deist

Here are a few sources

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
http://abrahadabra.net/2008/06/13/high-iq-implies-atheism/

Oh, Professor Richard Lynn, he seems obsessed with the IQ.

"The book argues that differences in national income (in the form of per capita gross domestic product) correlate with differences in the average national intelligence quotient (IQ)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

and newspapers speak only the truth. Not once has a newspaper ever lied, or printed false information.

LOL, no everything she says is attributed to some newspaper, we cant even get the names of those newspapers. My mom's funny.

Doesn't matter. I just want to travel around France for a bit. :D

Only if I win the lottery, with the strength of Euro. :p

Nope,

"Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation found in many Christian[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

So practicing christians and hindus wouldnt be deists, tho they are theists, xtians being monotheists.

In the case the deists should probably be under "belief in God" in the graph. The "belief in spirit" people are probably mostly those who feel "there is something out there" but have no idea what, nor attend religious services for this vague feeling.

Only if I win the lottery, with the strength of Euro. :pI'm hopefully going to be allowed into the foreign exchange student program at the college I'm going to attend. They just introduced a new program where you can travel to a foreign country and learn there if you're learning to speak the native language.

Like Spanish, Italian, Arabic, French, etc.

@Gauntlet: On your IQ, that is about 10-20 points higher than average

Also, exchange programs are fun. I went to Japan for mine

I'm hopefully going to be allowed into the foreign exchange student program at the college I'm going to attend. They just introduced a new program where you can travel to a foreign country and learn there if you're learning to speak the native language.

Like Spanish, Italian, Arabic, French, etc.

Oh that sounds fun, good luck! Are you gonna pay tuition to French universities?

In the case the deists should probably be under "belief in God" in the graph. The "belief in spirit" people are probably mostly those who feel "there is something out there" but have no idea what, nor attend religious services for this vague feeling.

Yea but to most people, "GOD" has abrahamic religion connotations.

In any case, atheists seem to be minorities in all countries.

Help! We're being oppressed!!! ;)

PS: I think no belief includes agnostics and not just atheists?Very likely.

Gotta love Estonia, Sweden and Czech Republic.
Btw, I don't understand why Turkey is featured as european country.

Btw, I don't understand why Turkey is featured as european country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

The prospected EU membership of Turkey isn't a valid argument. Because the poll features also Norway (which, while located on the european continent, isn't going to join any soon).
Turkey isn't located (except for a small part) on the european continent.
If the issue were about being "culturally european", well, Iceland, Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Georgia and Armenia should also be there.

Meh.

the 2001 census in the UK says...

With over 170 distinct religions counted in the 2001 Census, the religious make-up of the UK is diverse, complex, multicultural and surprising. Less than half of the British people believe in a God, yet about 72% told the 2001 census that they were Christian, and 66% of the population have no actual connection to any religion or church, despite what they tend to write down on official forms. Between 1979 and 2005, half of all Christians stopped going to church on a Sunday. Religion in Britain has suffered an immense decline since the 1950s, and all indicators show a continued secularisation of British society in line with other European countries such as France.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/UK/religion.html

and this Cambridge research seems to suggest Atheism is higher than the OP's article for many European countries http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

also...

According to the most recent relevant Eurostat Eurobarometer poll, in 2005, 52% of European Union citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 27% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 18% that "they do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force". Results were widely varied between different countries, with 95% of Maltese respondents stating that they believe in God, on the one end, and only 16% of Estonians stating the same on the other.[11] Several studies have found Sweden to be one of the most secular countries in the world. According to Davie (1999), 80% of Swedes do not believe in God.[12] In the Eurostat survey, 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force". This, according to the survey, would make Swedes the third least religious people in the 27-member European Union, after Estonia and the Czech Republic. In 2001, the Czech Statistical Office provided census information on the ten million people in the Czech Republic. 59% had no religion, 32.2% were religious, and 8.8% did not answer.[13]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Europe_belief_in_god.png/655px-Europe_belief_in_god.png
The percentage of people in European countries who said in 2005 that they "believe there is a God". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

In the United Kingdom, a poll in 2004 by the BBC put the number of people who do not believe in a God to be 40%, while a YouGov poll in the same year put the percentage of non-believers at 35% with 21% uncertain.[16] In the YouGov poll men were less likely to believe in a god than women and younger people were less likely to believe in a god than older people.

In early 2004, it was announced that atheism would be taught during religious education classes in the United Kingdom.[17] A spokesman for the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority stated: "There are many children in England who have no religious affiliation and their beliefs and ideas, whatever they are, should be taken very seriously." There is also considerable debate in the UK on the status of faith-based schools, which use religious as well as academic selection criteria.

on the same page, compare this to the US...

A 2004 BBC poll showed the number of people in the US who don't believe in a god to be about 10%.[6] A 2005 Gallup poll showed that a smaller 5% of the US population believed that a god didn't exist.[19] The 2001 ARIS report found that while 29.5 million U.S. Americans (14.1%) describe themselves as "without religion", only 902,000 (0.4%) positively claim to be atheist, with another 991,000 (0.5%) professing agnosticism.[20]

I must say....all the figures of religiosity seem remarkably high. From school...literally no-one took Religious Studies seriously, nearly everyone took the piss out of it and the idea of an invisible man in the sky, and not enough people wanted to do it for them to be able to hold a class beyond GCSE (when it stopped being mandatory). At university, I know maybe 2 people out of about 50 acquaintances who are even vaguely religious. Is it a generational thing? Or am I just in a pocket of extraordinary atheism?

I'm a little skeptic about the statistics. Personal experience is one thing, of course, but the statement about believing in "some sort of spirit" is very wide indeed. It would include faithful Wiccans just as much as people like my family, who for the most part don't believe in anything, but will answer that there probably is something out there only they haven't really given it much thought.
I also know more than a handful atheistic Catholics. They do believe in being Catholics, which involves getting married in church, and going to church for occasions like christmas because the incense smells so lovely.
God is negligible to many Catholics. He's thrown in for a bit of a laugh, really.

I must say....all the figures of religiosity seem remarkably high. From school...literally no-one took Religious Studies seriously, nearly everyone took the piss out of it and the idea of an invisible man in the sky, and not enough people wanted to do it for them to be able to hold a class beyond GCSE (when it stopped being mandatory). At university, I know maybe 2 people out of about 50 acquaintances who are even vaguely religious. Is it a generational thing? Or am I just in a pocket of extraordinary atheism?
Nah, I think you're right on the religious thing. I seem to have met more religious people at uni than I ought to have done, as two of my housemates are Christian, although the vast majority of all the other people I know are either agnostic or atheistic. I think that's a trend for people in the UK, especially ones who go on to university.

Keep in mind that too many pollsters count "I visit the church twice a year and set up a tree at christmas" under the same category as "I visit church daily and co-authored prop 8".

I'm a little skeptic about the statistics. Personal experience is one thing, of course, but the statement about believing in "some sort of spirit" is very wide indeed. It would include faithful Wiccans just as much as people like my family, who for the most part don't believe in anything, but will answer that there probably is something out there only they haven't really given it much thought.
I also know more than a handful atheistic Catholics. They do believe in being Catholics, which involves getting married in church, and going to church for occasions like christmas because the incense smells so lovely.
God is negligible to many Catholics. He's thrown in for a bit of a laugh, really.

As opposed to protestants (by background) who either don't care at all or take religion very, very seriously. At least that's my experience.

As opposed to protestants (by background) who either don't care at all or take religion very, very seriously. At least that's my experience.

Depends on where you are, I'd say. Protestants in most of Europe tend to be rather laid back.
Those in the US, however, are a different matter altogether.

About right. Yup.

Depends on where you are, I'd say. Protestants in most of Europe tend to be rather laid back.
Those in the US, however, are a different matter altogether.

Yup, the majority of protestants around here don't care. However, there are a few more stubborn types.

Now the catholics here in the Netherlands tend to be exactly as described above, they celebrate Carnaval, marry in church, baptise their 2.1 kid and use condoms. At least, this used to be the case like this. I'm not sure if the less devout ones still baptise :p

Yup, the majority of protestants around here don't care. However, there are a few more stubborn types.

Now the catholics here in the Netherlands tend to be exactly as described above, they celebrate Carnaval, marry in church, baptise their 2.1 kid and use condoms. At least, this used to be the case like this. I'm not sure if the less devout ones still baptise :p

To illustrate this point : I went to Catholic school in Catholic Bavaria.
We got taught how to use condoms and about other methods of contraception, and the lessons were repeated on a yearly basis to drive the importance of the whole issue.
We were told that of course we could wait with sex until marriage, but none of the nuns would advise it.
We learned about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism in detail during RE.
Things like creationsm weren't even mentioned in biology. Though one of our RE teacher would chuckle about it when we were discussing religion in the US.

In short, religion doesn't have a lot of influence in most of Europe... even in church-run schools.

Now after religion in US, lets look at Europe:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Eurobarometer_poll.png

I guess we can call "Belief in a spirit or life force" deism and assume that believers in god support abrahamic religions? In any case, atheists seem to be minorities in all countries. Deism (?) seems to be common in Northern Europe, altho I would assume most people dont know what deism means. What do you guys think?

PS: I think no belief includes agnostics and not just atheists?

Not sure, it seems to me that there are an awful lot of Atheists here in the Uk, and of course not all belivers in God support Abrahamic religons.

Turkey isn't located (except for a small part) on the european continent.
... aye so it's in Europe then, seeing as a small part of it is located here.

I must say....all the figures of religiosity seem remarkably high. From school...literally no-one took Religious Studies seriously, nearly everyone took the piss out of it and the idea of an invisible man in the sky, and not enough people wanted to do it for them to be able to hold a class beyond GCSE (when it stopped being mandatory). At university, I know maybe 2 people out of about 50 acquaintances who are even vaguely religious. Is it a generational thing? Or am I just in a pocket of extraordinary atheism?

i had the same experience. as i've said in other threads, in school i knew probably 2 or 3 people who were Christian. actually, i probably knew more muslims and hindus. at university, nobody even vaguely religious.

my grandma, however, attends chapel every sunday, and sometimes during the week. all her friends do, and always have done. its a way of life for her. i do suspect there's a big generational divide, with old people really pushing up the numbers of christians, and the baby-boomers who were raised christian, but who are now largely athiest, making up a lot of the "i probably believe in something" bunch.

grandparents: pretty devout christians, all their friends are
parents: largely athiest, with a little "there might be something we just can't explain", as are quite a few of their friends
me: totally athiest, as are all but one of my friends

Well speaking as an American. I suppose my 2 cents counts for less. I think Christianity ebbs and flows as you proceed through life. What was important in your teenage years becomes less important as you get older. I started off kind of religious in my youth. It faded away during my teenage and university years. It resurfaced in my middle 30s which were also a period of great change for me. I figure it is better than buying a red sports car. It could be a symptom of mid-life crisis. When I think back it was there on some level from the beginning.

A couple of other thoughts came to mind. A lyric from Pink Floyd kind of sums it up.

"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"

This is meant to be a complement I think the English resolve is pretty much unmatched worldwide. You seem to have the capacity to take things in stride much better than your American counterparts. Long after we would grabbed a gun and started shooting from a bell tower you guys seem to keep going forward. Stiff upper lip and all that. Americans seem to have little or no patience. We want it all and we want it now.

This might also explain the lack of need for spirituality. I have no fact to back this up just an unqualified observation.

This is meant to be a complement I think the English resolve is pretty much unmatched worldwide. You seem to have the capacity to take things in stride much better than your American counterparts. Long after we would grabbed a gun and started shooting from a bell tower you guys seem to keep going forward. Stiff upper lip and all that. Americans seem to have little or no patience. We want it all and we want it now.

This might also explain the lack of need for spirituality. I have no fact to back this up just an unqualified observation.
Interestingly, however, the Church of England has just outlined two new prayers; one for those just made redundant, and another for those still in work.

The low percentage of Theists/Deists/whatever in the Baltic States is probably a result of the kind of forced atheism in the former USSR which sought to replace religious faith with the complete faith in the government. After the fall of the Soviet Union however, the resulting vacuum brought forth extraordinarily popular revivals of Baltic paganism.

So I guess that in a free and well-educated society, the percentage of atheists will stabilize itself somewhere around 25%, it won't simply grow unchecked. There will always be people who won't be able to live without investing their faith in something (be it the state, the church, a mystic fad or simply a half-hearted continuation of old traditions).

So I guess that in a free and well-educated society, the percentage of atheists will stabilize itself somewhere around 25%...
How so?

Deist right here.

The French must be a bleak, bleak people.

The French must be a bleak, bleak people.

Yes, but not for the reasons you're thinking.

How so?

Seen from the statistics in the OP. I didn't run all those yellow bars through the calculator, but I'd say the average is roughly 25%, and I don't count Turkey as a free and well-educated society, not in religious means at least.

Again, my point is, that even if people are free to choose or abstain from a religion, some will still be prone to some sort of spirituality. It's human nature to be gullible.

... aye so it's in Europe then, seeing as a small part of it is located here.

So France is in South America? :wink:

The French must be a bleak, bleak people.

I don't know...working 30 hours a week, good wine, good beer, awesome food, pretty decent weather, nice cigarettes, and some very hot people, and a sense of moral superiority that means no matter what you do you're never wrong. I think the French have pretty much got it made.

The French must be a bleak, bleak people.

Certainly not famous for their cuisine, wine, art galleries or beautiful women.

The official test that I got when my parents took me to the hospital to determine if I had ADD/ADHD or not said I had an IQ of 147.

The Interwebs tells me I have an IQ of 112. :p

My crap internet IQ score = 118 when I was in school I took a test and for shits and giggles I tried to score low. I got a 60. TIMMAY!

Certainly not famous for their cuisine, wine, art galleries or beautiful women.

Not a big fan of unshaved armpits.

These bars don't sum up to 100%. What's the missing part, non-Christians?

The prospected EU membership of Turkey isn't a valid argument. Because the poll features also Norway (which, while located on the european continent, isn't going to join any soon).
Turkey isn't located (except for a small part) on the european continent.
If the issue were about being "culturally european", well, Iceland, Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Georgia and Armenia should also be there.

Meh.

Its EU countries, candidate countries and countries of EFTA.

Seen from the statistics in the OP. I didn't run all those yellow bars through the calculator, but I'd say the average is roughly 25%, and I don't count Turkey as a free and well-educated society, not in religious means at least.
But that says little on the manner of what percentage of athiests 'free and well-educated' societies produce; just that this is the particular situation in Europe at the moment.

(And I wouldn't call European societies completely free.)

Seen from the statistics in the OP. I didn't run all those yellow bars through the calculator, but I'd say the average is roughly 25%, and I don't count Turkey as a free and well-educated society, not in religious means at least.

Again, my point is, that even if people are free to choose or abstain from a religion, some will still be prone to some sort of spirituality. It's human nature to be gullible.


(And I wouldn't call European societies completely free.)

Oh yeah, I should make that point clear since I already have a thread about US. This thread isnt about how much better Europe is than USA.

Most European countries have many human rights violations, from free speech restrictions to discrimination of homosexuals.

And Turaan is from Switzerland, some of its cantons allowed women to vote as late as in 1990s.

And talking about education, US higher education usually outperforms the European one.

Europe does seem more secular to me than USA does, but I could be wrong.

I think religion is more of a private thing in Europe. Probably a results of all the burning people for being part of whichever versions were out of fashion at the time..

And Turaan is from Switzerland, some of its cantons allowed women to vote as late as in 1990s.
Good thing they stopped that then.:p

Not a big fan of unshaved armpits.

But you like women who are so fat that they have their own little moons orbiting them?

We're all focusing on the deism bit. I am more interested in the or force bit. May the Force be with you!

And Turaan is from Switzerland, some of its cantons allowed women to vote as late as in 1990s.

Women gained the right to vote in any and every election in 1973 actually, Switzerland may not really be a shining rolemodel for human rights, but in the nineties even the women folk in Central Switzerland had been allowed to get their voting for more than seventeen years.
Yay Helvetia! ;)

Women gained the right to vote in any and every election in 1973 actually, Switzerland may not really be a shining rolemodel for human rights, but in the nineties even the women folk in Central Switzerland had been allowed to get their voting for more than seventeen years.
Yay Helvetia! ;)


Until a 1990 decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, women did not have the right to vote at the cantonal level in Appenzell Innerrhoden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appenzell_Innerrhoden

So Swiss should keep their mouth shut about free societies at least for another decade or two.

Its EU countries, candidate countries and countries of EFTA.

Ah. Ok, then.

But that says little on the manner of what percentage of athiests 'free and well-educated' societies produce; just that this is the particular situation in Europe at the moment.
I repeat: that wasn't my point at all, I won't argue about it. See my previous post.

(And I wouldn't call European societies completely free.)
Oh? Which country lacks religious freedom in your opinion?

Oh yeah, I should make that point clear since I already have a thread about US. This thread isnt about how much better Europe is than USA.
Nobody said so, so no need to feel offended. (Plus, there is no such thing as one single European society, but nvm)

Most European countries have many human rights violations, from free speech restrictions to discrimination of homosexuals.
And how is that relevant when talking about religious freedom?
By the way, which countries aren't free in your opinion? (Note that I'm using the present tense)

And Turaan is from Switzerland, some of its cantons allowed women to vote as late as in 1990s.
Whether women could vote in Appenzell in 1990 or not is completely irrelevant. But wait, I thought this wasn't a discussion about who's better than the other...

And talking about education, US higher education usually outperforms the European one.
Nice to see that you're so bleeding proud of the US that you go completely out of the way of relevant discussion to assure me that they're better than "Europe". Even then, chances are that the school I'm going to outranks yours. Now, if we're done flexing nuts out of topic, we can get back to religion.

So Swiss should keep their mouth shut about free societies at least for another decade or two.
So, since Canadians virtually eradicated the native societies, you should shut up for the next few centuries? Nah, I wouldn't seek such a cheap and laughable attempt to ignore arguments.

Nobody said so, so no need to feel offended. (Plus, there is no such thing as one single European society, but nvm)


Oh, I wasnt offended, I'm not even American, was just clarifying.


And how is that relevant when talking about religious freedom?


I was just talking about a "free and well-educated society" in general.


By the way, which countries aren't free in your opinion? (Note that I'm using the present tense)


Compared to what? Compared to Canada, I'd say only Scandinavian countries and Netherlands are on par with us tho I'm not sure.


Whether women could vote in Appenzell in 1990 or not is completely irrelevant. But wait, I thought this wasn't a discussion about who's better than the other...


Nice to see that you're so bleeding proud of the US that you go completely out of the way of relevant discussion to assure me that they're better than "Europe". Even then, chances are that the school I'm going to outranks yours. Now, if we're done flexing nuts out of topic, we can get back to religion.


LOL, thats bad. US is far from being perfect as well. So is Canada. Again, I was just answering to a free and well educated society in general.


So, since Canadians virtually eradicated the native societies, you should shut up for the next few centuries? Nah, I wouldn't seek such a cheap and laughable attempt to ignore arguments.

Umm, you should look up history on that, treatment of First Nations is quite different than the treatment of natives in US altho there were many atrocities.

Edit:

PS: "So Swiss should keep their mouth shut about free societies at least for another decade or two" is quite strong wording. I have no idea why I put it like that, usually I hate big words.

Seen from the statistics in the OP. I didn't run all those yellow bars through the calculator, but I'd say the average is roughly 25%, and I don't count Turkey as a free and well-educated society, not in religious means at least.

Again, my point is, that even if people are free to choose or abstain from a religion, some will still be prone to some sort of spirituality. It's human nature to be gullible.

I think you don't take into account that socially, atheism is a fairly new phenomenon, even in Europe.
Being athiest here a generation ago would have been difficult in place, and two generations ago it would have been unthinkable. (I'm exculding all the former Eastern Block countries from this, as they had a radically different development)

I think the number of atheists will continue to grow for the next generation or two, and the balance might stabilise after that.

Compared to what? Compared to Canada, I'd say only Scandinavian countries and Netherlands are on par with us tho I'm not sure.
I would like to hear reasons why you think that Germany, Switzerland, or even Italy and Greece are less free and educated than Canada. Sources would be even better. Sources like the Democracy Index show Canada preceded by 8 European countries, among others, Switzerland. So I don't really see the lack of freedom and education, not in Western, Central and Southern Europe...

LOL, thats bad. US is far from being perfect as well. So is Canada. Again, I was just answering to a free and well educated society in general.
So when I was an infant, women were granted suffrage in the smallest canton of Switzerland. How does that affect us in the present?

Umm, you should look up history on that, treatment of First Nations is quite different than the treatment of natives in US altho there were many atrocities.
Heh, I didn't compare you to the US. I said that you displaced the natives, annexed their land, marginalized them and done many many things that would never count as part of a free and educated society. Just because the yanks were a tad more brutal, it doesn't erase your past.
And my point was, even though your ancestors (assuming they were Canadian as well) did commit crimes against humanity, it doesn't affect your way of thinking now in the slightest (except of course for the circumstances created by the crimes themselves).

I think the number of atheists will continue to grow for the next generation or two, and the balance might stabilise after that.

Agreed. The existence of a balance was my point from the beginning as well. As to where the balance will stabilise, I don't know and I don't really care.

WOw... Spain has me impressed. I expected a lot more hard believers there.

I would like to hear reasons why you think that Germany, Switzerland, or even Italy and Greece are less free and educated than Canada. Sources would be even better. Sources like the Democracy Index show Canada preceded by 8 European countries, among others, Switzerland. So I don't really see the lack of freedom and education, not in Western, Central and Southern Europe...


"Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland. Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007." (wiki)

As long as it doesnt incite to violence, there should be freedom of expression.

As for education,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index



So when I was an infant, women were granted suffrage in the smallest canton of Switzerland. How does that affect us in the present?


It's pretty recent so I think one should use restraint when using big words for Switzerland.


Heh, I didn't compare you to the US. I said that you displaced the natives, annexed their land, marginalized them and done many many things that would never count as part of a free and educated society.


I didnt say Canada was a free and well educated society. As I said, I dont like big words. However, compared to most other countries, it ranks pretty high, IMO.


Just because the yanks were a tad more brutal, it doesn't erase your past.
And my point was, even though your ancestors (assuming they were Canadian as well) did commit crimes against humanity, it doesn't affect your way of thinking now in the slightest (except of course for the circumstances created by the crimes themselves).

Actually it does affect my thinking such that I dont make grandiose statements about Canada.

PS: I have only little english in me and I dont think it goes that back. Tho, I have mostly german and thats much worse :D

"Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland. Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007." (wiki)

As long as it doesnt incite to violence, there should be freedom of expression.
Good to know. The party I vote for also seeks to abolish the law punishing Holocaust denial. Even then, I don't see how that affects religious freedom in any way.

It's pretty recent so I think one should use restraint when using big words for Switzerland.
Pretty recent? Recent enought that my generation was in an infant stage when it got abolished... Yet completely reparable when compared to the example I brought earlier: your destruction of the native way of life for those cultures in Canada... And you think I should use restraint compared to you? Sounds like a forced impediment of free speech from someone who simply doesn't want to hear a specific argument. Free and educated you say?

I didnt say Canada was a free and well educated society. As I said, I dont like big words. However, compared to most other countries, it ranks pretty high, IMO.
Pretty high, does that justify a supremacist attitude to the point of forced ignorance towards other points of view? The Canadian standard of education doesn't seem to shine that brightly when it comes to your ability to handle a discussion with someone from a country you deem "inferior".

Actually it does affect my thinking such that I dont make grandiose statements about Canada.
Quitting to act like someone too supreme to acknowledge foreign arguments would be another step in the direction you claim Canada is going.

PS: I have only little english in me and I dont think it goes that back. Tho, I have mostly german and thats much worse :D
So much for inherited guilt. Whenever you accuse someone of it, think of yourself.