NationStates Jolt Archive

After reading a thread about student's rights, I remember going to continuation school 2 years ago. Frankly, I think they worked. The teachers provided quality personalized education, we were low income so we were well funded with the newest apple computers, and all of the lunches were vegetarian. The teachers genuinely respected the students, and from what I remember, there were no fights, dropouts, or anything of that matter. So, the question is, would the American educational system be better if it was more localized, and set up like a continuation school?

What is a continuation school?

What, pray tell, is a 'continuation' school?

And having vegetarian lunches would make for an abysmal school career- it'd suck the fun right out of lunch!

A continuation school is a school for people who are too behind in credits or are on probation, pregnant etc. Basically the troubled kids. The lunches were awesome, we actually had a chef who prepared vegetarian foods and for free.

Is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_school) what it is? I've never heard the term.
EDIT: Never mind, the post above me answers it.

it must be tough to get into a school that good.

Is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_school) what it is? I've never heard the term.
EDIT: Never mind, the post above me answers it.

The state of california doesn't want to really mention them for unexplained reasons. I happened to be behind in credits so I was sent to one. The average school day was from 8am to 1pm.

The state of california doesn't want to really mention them for unexplained reasons. I happened to be behind in credits so I was sent to one. The average school day was from 8am to 1pm.
That's weird; I can't think of why they would want to keep these schools secret.
They do sound better than normal schools. Anytime you have more individual teaching, that's bound to happen. I don't know if its plausible (or necessary) for all American schools to work this way, though.

The state of california doesn't want to really mention them for unexplained reasons. I happened to be behind in credits so I was sent to one. The average school day was from 8am to 1pm.
Perhaps because people really aren't supposed to be in them and they are a last ditch effort to get people out of the system before they age out at 21?

it must be tough to get into a school that good.

Actually my school district was overeager to send students to them. It alleviated the load. The students however were strange. They were usually in some sort of trouble with the law but the they ended up graduating and going to college.
This is from my anecdotal experience though.

The state of california doesn't want to really mention them for unexplained reasons. I happened to be behind in credits so I was sent to one. The average school day was from 8am to 1pm.
back when my niece was in highschool in maryland she kept failing classes due to missing too many --it didnt take many.

it really pissed her off that the summer school classes were short and to the point. no bullshit, no recess, just classes that lasted a few hours a day for a few weeks. she wished that all school could have been done that way. then she wouldnt have had to go to summer school at all.

Perhaps because people really aren't supposed to be in them and they are a last ditch effort to get people out of the system before they age out at 21?

Probably. You earn credits alot easter and still they can transfer to regular high school.

back when my niece was in highschool in maryland she kept failing classes due to missing too many --it didnt take many.

it really pissed her off that the summer school classes were short and to the point. no bullshit, no recess, just classes that lasted a few hours a day for a few weeks. she wished that all school could have been done that way. then she wouldnt have had to go to summer school at all.

That's continuation for you. No bullshit though, but a 15 minute lunch break that was extended whenever many students didn't have any behavioral problems. We also had to walk around the yard in the morning in addition to PE.

That's continuation for you. No bullshit though, but a 15 minute lunch break that was extended whenever many students didn't have any behavioral problems. We also had to walk around the yard in the morning in addition to PE.
of course that sort of thing isnt for everyone. some people need the full school year and the full school day to fill out their sports and social schedules.

...The students however were strange. They were usually in some sort of trouble with the law but the they ended up graduating and going to college...

... story of my life.

Seriously though I have never heard of these continuation schools either. I just got shuffled around the district until my raging hormones sort of leveled off and I started acting like marginally normal person.

of course that sort of thing isnt for everyone. some people need the full school year and the full school day to fill out their sports and social schedules.

Yeah, no sports in continuation. I didn't mind though, I thought it was better that way.

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.

Yeah, no sports in continuation. I didn't mind though, I thought it was better that way.
i was never interested in that whole school spirit bullshit myself.

... story of my life.

Seriously though I have never heard of these continuation schools either. I just got shuffled around the district until my raging hormones sort of leveled off and I started acting like marginally normal person.

I'm surprised nobody's heard of them!

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.
every child of normal intelligence can be educated through highschool. whether or not they WANT to be educated is another question entirely.

I'm surprised nobody's heard of them!

In the US, I believe they're called Alternative School.

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.

Yeah thats true.

In the US, I believe they're called Alternative School.

I am in america!

In the US, I believe they're called Alternative School."Hope Academy" is the name of our school here.

Alternative school is for those who are being severely punished without being suspended/expelled. 8:22 AM to 3:32 PM sitting in a walled off cubicle doing busy work, not allowed to talk, not allowed to read, not allowed to speak, and a maximum of twenty minutes for lunch. Defiance is the primary reason people are sent there. (Defiance being completely undefined.)

"Hope Academy" is the name of our school here.

Alternative school is for those who are being severely punished without being suspended/expelled. 8:22 AM to 3:32 PM sitting in a walled off cubicle doing busy work, not allowed to talk, not allowed to read, not allowed to speak, and a maximum of twenty minutes for lunch. Defiance is the primary reason people are sent there. (Defiance being completely undefined.)

That's got to suck.

"Hope Academy" is the name of our school here.

Alternative school is for those who are being severely punished without being suspended/expelled. 8:22 AM to 3:32 PM sitting in a walled off cubicle doing busy work, not allowed to talk, not allowed to read, not allowed to speak, and a maximum of twenty minutes for lunch. Defiance is the primary reason people are sent there. (Defiance being completely undefined.)

Guantanamo just got replaced...

"Hope Academy" is the name of our school here.

Alternative school is for those who are being severely punished without being suspended/expelled. 8:22 AM to 3:32 PM sitting in a walled off cubicle doing busy work, not allowed to talk, not allowed to read, not allowed to speak, and a maximum of twenty minutes for lunch. Defiance is the primary reason people are sent there. (Defiance being completely undefined.)

Dean: Johnny, what were you doing in your cubicle?

Johnny: Smoking crack.

Dean: That's not what Ms. Kuntzenthorny says.

Johnny: I swear, it wasn't mine.

Dean: Hmm..."Flesh in the Age of Reason" by...Roy Porter. This isn't in the state mandated curriculum.

Johnny: I told you, its not mine. I don't know how it got in my backpack.

Dean: Johnny, this is a school. We don't allow reading here.

Johnny: Fine. Expel me. But you can't stop me. NONE OF YOU CAN! There are libraries...and..and book stores...and AMA-fucking-ZON DOT COM!

Dean: Come back here! Put your pants back on!

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

I know you've come across the same retarded assed 2LTs I have. If they can make it through high school, much less college, anyone can.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

Wanting to, as opposed to being able to, make it through school is quite a different thing to being able to.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.

While I agree there should be a technical/university track you and I both know it doesn't take all that much brains to make it through university. It takes either tolerating or rolling with bullshit, not smarts.

The answer to your question is no, it would not. The American education system would benefit from teachers making lucrative wages which would encourage people to become teachers. At the same time, we have to identify which teachers are not cut out for the job and fire them so that we can free up teaching spots for good teachers and keep the bad teachers from stagnating.

To get the same benefit from switching from an average teacher to a good teacher, you would have to halve the size of the class. There is already a teacher shortage in America, and proposing even smaller class sizes is something that is not only unrealistic but ignorant.

For more (long) reading, http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

close thread

That's got to suck.I've been sent there once, because I...fervently disagreed with a teacher's take on China, and Asia in general.

Guantanamo just got replaced...No kidding?
Dean: Johnny, what were you doing in your cubicle?

Johnny: Smoking crack.

Dean: That's not what Ms. Kuntzenthorny says.

Johnny: I swear, it wasn't mine.

Dean: Hmm..."Flesh in the Age of Reason" by...Roy Porter. This isn't in the state mandated curriculum.

Johnny: I told you, its not mine. I don't know how it got in my backpack.

Dean: Johnny, this is a school. We don't allow reading here.

Johnny: Fine. Expel me. But you can't stop me. NONE OF YOU CAN! There are libraries...and..and book stores...and AMA-fucking-ZON DOT COM!

Dean: Come back here! Put your pants back on!Books that don't involve classes that you're in get confiscated as you enter the room.

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.

This is, more or less, what the European schools do. It seems to work well for them.

The answer to your question is no, it would not. The American education system would benefit from teachers making lucrative wages which would encourage people to become teachers. At the same time, we have to identify which teachers are not cut out for the job and fire them so that we can free up teaching spots for good teachers and keep the bad teachers from stagnating.

To get the same benefit from switching from an average teacher to a good teacher, you would have to halve the size of the class. There is already a teacher shortage in America, and proposing even smaller class sizes is something that is not only unrealistic but ignorant.

For more (long) reading, http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

close thread

Yep. Now I wait for someone to come on and say that teachers are overpaid (yes, I have had that arguement before).

Books that don't involve classes that you're in get confiscated as you enter the room.

That's awesome. They want to educate you, so they stop you from reading what you willingly choose to read.

That's awesome. They want to educate you, so they stop you from reading what you willingly choose to read.That's right.

Yep. Now I wait for someone to come on and say that teachers are overpaid (yes, I have had that arguement before). ...Really? I find this incredibly amusing, for some reason.

Yep. Now I wait for someone to come on and say that teachers are overpaid (yes, I have had that arguement before).

Teachers are overpaid. They go home at 3:00pm instead of writing lesson plans, grading, attending meetings, talking with parents, and training. And they only work 9 months a year, instead of doing ongoing education.

Oh, wait....that's describes what I'd do if I were a teacher, not what actual teachers do...

Guantanamo just got replaced...

Are you fucking serious?


When they start sleep deprevation and waterboarding, such comments, even in jest, will be taken seriously. Until then...


:rolleyes:

Teachers are overpaid. They go home at 3:00pm instead of writing lesson plans, grading, attending meetings, talking with parents, and training. And they only work 9 months a year, instead of doing ongoing education.

Oh, wait....that's describes what I'd do if I were a teacher, not what actual teachers do...

I like you.

In response to those who would like a hierarchical school system:

How do we decide who goes on which track? I think this is the most basic problems with these ideas. Generally, money provides the best schooling, so it seems to me that those with money would still dominate your system. I think in a world where inequality is essentially a fact of life, providing equal schooling to all without cost is the best way to try and make a desperate attempt to level the playing field. Sure, it doesn't work a lot of the time, but it could be worst. Which is never an excuse to get complacent, but I can't see a better alternative.

Whoever said we need to pay our teachers more, you get a gold star.

How do we decide who goes on which track?

In Europe, they uses tests. It seems to work ok for them. And just because you go to a trade school doesnt mean you cant do well. Tradesmen tend to make up the bulk of the economy in many industrialized countries.

In Europe, they uses tests. It seems to work ok for them.

I am unfamiliar with what they do in Europe, so I can only speak from my personal standpoint. If it works well for them, I wish them continued happiness and long life. But when do they test? And I'm sure we're all familiar with the flaws in tests.

Then, of course, you can say well of course the system is imperfect, which system isn't! But it works well. And I can't argue, because you'd be right, and maybe I'd be right too.

I don't think their system, even if it would be better for us, would conform to American ideals anyways. How could the government justify something that is so, well, European?

How could the government justify something that is so, well, European?Where have you been for the past fifty or so years?
We steal shit from everybody. Good times. :D

I am unfamiliar with what they do in Europe, so I can only speak from my personal standpoint. If it works well for them, I wish them continued happiness and long life. But when do they test? And I'm sure we're all familiar with the flaws in tests.

Of course, but I dont think its purely a standardized test. They test around what would be considered Junior High for us I believe, and the test determines which High School you go to, and that high school is geared towards either trades (with an eventual apprenticeship) or academia.

I don't think their system, even if it would be better for us, would conform to American ideals anyways. How could the government justify something that is so, well, European?

So...we should keep doing something that is inferior...because we dont want to do what may be better for us because Europe does it? Frankly, that kind of thinking has caused us a lot of problems.

That, and, well...almost everything our country was founded on was European.:p

a lack of them would probably suck more, but students and faculty ought to have more say then parents and administrators, in just about everything to do with them. voters of course have a saw in what resources get appropriated to them. but how those resources are deployed within a given school ought rightfully to be up to students and faculty. administration's roll needs to be limited to bookkeeping (and parents to what goes on within their own houses).

Of course all that is true, but we don't acknowledge it as true. Perception is important as all of that truth stuff.

When you suggest that we rank our children based on a test, and we decide to give some a "better" education based on their results on this test, I think its understandable some might mistrust it.

I did some research, and I came up with the following high school (or equivalent) graduation rates: for the US, the average graduation rate is 68.5%. However, due to our system of egalitarian, mandatory education, our rate of Americans with some high school education is about 87%, second only to the Czech Republic (88%). Germany, an exemplary school system if there ever was one, has a rate of 83%; Spain has a rate of just 41%.

I think all of my point is that the problem isn't the structure of our education system. We shouldn't divide students by scores, we should give them a better education with the system we have now. If we do that, perhaps those 87% would be better educated and better off generally.

Are you suggesting that Jefferson's ideas weren't his own? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Clearly different than Locke. And the Constitution was actually groundbreaking, I think.

When you suggest that we rank our children based on a test, and we decide to give some a "better" education based on their results on this test, I think its understandable some might mistrust it.

Well, we would have to change the mindset of people that acedamia is better then trades.

Are you suggesting that Jefferson's ideas weren't his own? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Clearly different than Locke.

Why do people always point to Jefferson? There were other founding fathers with just as good ideas.

More importantly, however, while Jefferson may have changed some words around, everything that America was founded on was indeed a product of the European Enlightenment.

Teachers are overpaid. They go home at 3:00pm instead of writing lesson plans, grading, attending meetings, talking with parents, and training. And they only work 9 months a year, instead of doing ongoing education.

Oh, wait....that's describes what I'd do if I were a teacher, not what actual teachers do...

You know very few teachers, I think.

IMHO one way to fix it all is not a good idea. A better alternative would be to ease the restrictions on private schools. Implement school vouchers as well. That way, the invisible hand will take care of the students' education. Of course this means that there will be lots of schools with strange concepts, but this way, the systems which work will prevail.

Couldn't give a fuck about American education, to be honest.

Couldn't give a fuck about American education, to be honest.
You do give enough of that to post here ;)

You do give enough of that to post here ;)

Heh, that's true. But still, it isn't much :tongue:

You know very few teachers, I think.

I know quite a few, both in public and private education, in a couple different states and two countries.

IMHO one way to fix it all is not a good idea. A better alternative would be to ease the restrictions on private schools. Implement school vouchers as well. That way, the invisible hand will take care of the students' education. Of course this means that there will be lots of schools with strange concepts, but this way, the systems which work will prevail.

Vouchers are an awful idea. And some things the "invisible hand" should not touch. Education is one of them.

Youd think with the current state of the world's economy, people would be less gung-ho to have pure free market. Oh well. Some never learn.

Vouchers are an awful idea. And some things the "invisible hand" should not touch. Education is one of them.

Youd think with the current state of the world's economy, people would be less gung-ho to have pure free market. Oh well. Some never learn.

I think its okay for the invisible hand to touch students once they're in college. Its the time for experimentation.

Vouchers are an awful idea. And some things the "invisible hand" should not touch. Education is one of them.

Youd think with the current state of the world's economy, people would be less gung-ho to have pure free market. Oh well. Some never learn.

Why shouldn't the invisible hand touch education? It is successful in these respects. The most redeeming factor is IMHO that it deals with the need of diversity. Not ever pupil is alike and thus they need different methods of teaching. also, private schools can be good in making sure the quality of the teachers is good.

\begin{threadhijacking}I think the crisis was caused by too little freedom of investment, not too much. IMHO the current crisis just means that we should do away with central banking.\end{threadhijacking}

I know quite a few, both in public and private education, in a couple different states and two countries.
Then I just know the wrong ones...

Then I just know the wrong ones...

Or I do, or it just varies a lot.

I think its okay for the invisible hand to touch students once they're in college. Its the time for experimentation.
Ahhhh! The invisible hand is molesting me! Make it go away!

Actually If I ran the educational system, I would propose merit based pay for teachers, and smaller class sizes. I would also provide FREE UNIVERSITY education open to anyone, seeing that people with 3.0 gpas can't get into college but bro-raping frat boy fucks can.

Ahhhh! The invisible hand is molesting me! Make it go away!

Now I know why people are communists ;)

Interesting. I would have thought that if you put together all of the 'troubled kids' behind on work that school would be a chaotic and destructive mess that would be burnt down within a few days. But the OP seems to suggest it can work. I suppose the fact that its a real 'last chance' might be a motivator to behave well.

Couldn't give a fuck about American education, to be honest.

New Zealand schools are just a toned down version, in my experience. With uniform.

I'd love to see students with more power, but of course calls of "angsty teen!" would in a ironically immature fashion come out of some posters keyboard bashings.

New Zealand schools are just a toned down version, in my experience. With uniform.

I rate NZ education pretty highly to be honest.. From my experience (one primary, one secondary, one tertiary), we tend to be there or thereabouts.

Doesn't America already use tracks which basically determine whether a kid will go to college or to a trade school? In elementary if you're labeled gifted and talented you're near guaranteed to get into a decent high school to take advanced courses for college. If you stay in regular classes or are put into special ed then you're on track for community colleges, trade schools, or the work force which is causing our achievement gap.

I'm not convinced that EVERY child can be educated to the point where they graduate from high school.

A lot of politicians promise that "your kid will go to college!" when it's clear that not everyone is capable of making it through (or wants to make it), even if they have money and time.

I believe that rather than selling the snake oil that all of the kids are "above average", we should be modifying school along completely separate tracks - some based on a track for college (and you'll have to pass tests and get the grades to get on and stay on the track), and some based on a track for trades.

We should also come to the rational conclusion that some people either don't want to be educated at all, or can't be educated effectively to either work a trade or go on to college.
We used to have this. Unfortunately, a lot of educational policy and theory is created by people who never have been a teacher and who are more concerned with "self-esteem" than actual ability or motivation.

Guantanamo just got replaced...
Don't be ridiculous. It may be unpleasant but to say it's a replacement for a prisoner of war/concentration camp shows a complete lack of comprehension of the circumstances prisoners there deal with.

We used to have this. Unfortunately, a lot of educational policy and theory is created by people who never have been a teacher and who are more concerned with "self-esteem" than actual ability or motivation.

I don't think this is a US only thing.

The UK used to have a system that streamed students into university or trade tracks. Then it went to the comprehensive system that treats all studends the same.

Interestingly it's heading back towards an academy system that funnels students towards their strengths.

We didn't have such a thing in my hometown. Either you graduated high school and went directly to college, or you were crucified on the front lawn of the school one night as a warning to others who might be plotting a similar deviation.

Oh, also, school didn't suck.

If only I could go back to my school days...

Actually If I ran the educational system, I would propose merit based pay for teachers, and smaller class sizes. I would also provide FREE UNIVERSITY education open to anyone, seeing that people with 3.0 gpas can't get into college but bro-raping frat boy fucks can.

that's all well and good when you're a tax-and-spend democRAT

welcome to the republican party http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5608/emotsmugkq6.gif

and all of the lunches were vegetarian.

Wait....WHAT?! Oh hell no! If I went to that school, I'd punch out the principal to get meat! I love eating meat. I r a carneevore!

and all of the lunches were vegetarian.
Isn't that exactly as unfair as none of the lunches being vegetarian?
Actually If I ran the educational system, I would propose merit based pay for teachers,
Now you have to fund inspectors to make sure teachers aren't trying to game the system for more money, or getting evecited because they were unlucky and got a class of bad kids this year.
and smaller class sizes.
More teachers to pay, more inspectors....
I would also provide FREE UNIVERSITY education open to anyone, seeing that people with 3.0 gpas can't get into college but bro-raping frat boy fucks can.

Wow, you're never going to get elected. Not that these are terrible ideas. Just that they'll be so expensive and difficult to implement that they may never come to fruition.

Don't be ridiculous. It may be unpleasant but to say it's a replacement for a prisoner of war/concentration camp shows a complete lack of comprehension of the circumstances prisoners there deal with.

*sigh* Yeah, you're right. That was uncalled for. Waterboarding and 23-hour lock downs are nothing to joke about.

Doesn't America already use tracks which basically determine whether a kid will go to college or to a trade school?

No.

I rate NZ education pretty highly to be honest.. From my experience (one primary, one secondary, one tertiary), we tend to be there or thereabouts.

I give it a big fat, meh, being the in the last year of high school this year.

I did a course at Polytech which I liked a lot, through the school, and it was far better than actual high school. I guess it's really the motivations that the schooling system itself has, being more of a keep the schools reputation clean at the cost of students futures, etc. I've noticed that punishments etc go way out of control, and there is no accountability. My school has a reputation for stoners, and apparently is way laid back compared to others, but it's still one of the most rigid systems I've had experience in.

I think the biggest indicator of educational success has always been and will always be money. I don't think its the least bit cynical to suggest that the best educated will always be a sort of oligarchy. Private schools, SAT prep courses that cost thousands of dollars, donations of buildings to Yale or Harvard (or, if you're NEW money, maybe Brown or Princeton)... of course none of this guarantees a child will be SMART (eg. President Goofball) but it certainly looks good, framed and put on a wall. Our class is the biggest single indicator of anything in our lives, if you ask me.

Slightly off topic, but... Why, exactly, is it good for all the lunches to be vegetarian? There should be vegetarian options, just as there should be gluten free options (like rice instead of bread, for example) but growing kids need protein, especially low income children whose parents may not be able to afford quality meat.

Realistically, in the developed world, without an education in a trade or a college degree, you are almost certainly going to be in poverty. There are no longer really any jobs available that pay well like the old manufacturing jobs did back in the 1950's and 1960's and which require at most a high school degree; if that's what you want, go ahead, but the truth is being poor sucks.

That doesn't mean you need to be rich or own tons of things, but having financial security means not having to worry how you will pay your heating bill, rent, buy gas and food, own a car or God forbid pay medical bills. The effects on quality of life stemming from having financial security or the lack thereof are considerable enough that we can't really have the attitude that "some people aren't cut out for college/trade school"...we need to do what we can to get them on that path because otherwise they're likely going to have a pretty miserable life with few or no prospects for improvement.

Realistically, in the developed world, without an education in a trade or a college degree, you are almost certainly going to be in poverty. There are no longer really any jobs available that pay well like the old manufacturing jobs did back in the 1950's and 1960's and which require at most a high school degree; if that's what you want, go ahead, but the truth is being poor sucks.

That doesn't mean you need to be rich or own tons of things, but having financial security means not having to worry how you will pay your heating bill, rent, buy gas and food, own a car or God forbid pay medical bills. The effects on quality of life stemming from having financial security or the lack thereof are considerable enough that we can't really have the attitude that "some people aren't cut out for college/trade school"...we need to do what we can to get them on that path because otherwise they're likely going to have a pretty miserable life with few or no prospects for improvement.

I'm seen some people get into a tech support job without a degree, then build that experience into something employers will value in lieu of a degree, but that might be exception.

I've seen a few people do it with sales, too, but it seems to take particular talent to do that.

Yep. Now I wait for someone to come on and say that teachers are overpaid (yes, I have had that arguement before).

I don't know if I'd argue that... but I would say they don't necessarily need paying more. In Georgia, our teachers average almost 50k.. and start comfortably over 30.

Which means teachers (again, in Georgia) average about 10k per annum better than the overall state average. (And, since those averages are based on mean payscales, not median payscales - it means teachers are already paid substantially better than most of the rest of us).

Now, I'm not saying paying teachers is bad... or that they should live in poverty... but I also don't see reason to believe that throwing an extra 10k per annum at teachers is going to improve education. Spend the same amount of money on MORE teachers, instead of more money on the same teachers - we can be pretty sure we'll at least get a good return from smaller class sizes.


Edit: Those payscales come from here: http://www.bls.gov/OES/current/oes_ga.htm#b00-0000

We used to have this. Unfortunately, a lot of educational policy and theory is created by people who never have been a teacher and who are more concerned with "self-esteem" than actual ability or motivation.
But there were some massive problems with tracking as well. There still are.

Isn't that exactly as unfair as none of the lunches being vegetarian?

Now you have to fund inspectors to make sure teachers aren't trying to game the system for more money, or getting evecited because they were unlucky and got a class of bad kids this year.

More teachers to pay, more inspectors....


Wow, you're never going to get elected. Not that these are terrible ideas. Just that they'll be so expensive and difficult to implement that they may never come to fruition.

Eh, just putting forward my ideas. I never hated my tofu-bacon and cheese sandwiches or tofu paninis. Most of the funding could come from reducing military spending and FCC spending.
With the unlucky part, I'd have to say Shit Happens. Kids get unlucky and get bad teachers all the time.

Slightly off topic, but... Why, exactly, is it good for all the lunches to be vegetarian? There should be vegetarian options, just as there should be gluten free options (like rice instead of bread, for example) but growing kids need protein, especially low income children whose parents may not be able to afford quality meat.

They told me it was to keep kids from being aggressive from eating meat. Hey, I eat lots of meat but the food was awesome.

Wait....WHAT?! Oh hell no! If I went to that school, I'd punch out the principal to get meat! I love eating meat. I r a carneevore!

In n out burger was across the street and you could go out at lunch.

we can be pretty sure we'll at least get a good return from smaller class sizes.

no, we can't, read my first post in this thread because you are wrong

no, we can't, read my first post in this thread because you are wrong

Silly Republicans, your tax money is for kids!

Eh, just putting forward my ideas. I never hated my tofu-bacon and cheese sandwiches or tofu paninis. Most of the funding could come from reducing military spending and FCC spending.
With the unlucky part, I'd have to say Shit Happens. Kids get unlucky and get bad teachers all the time.

FCC? The guys that regulate television?

....

....


Yeah, okay, actually, I'm on board, fuck their budget.

I don't know if I'd argue that... but I would say they don't necessarily need paying more. In Georgia, our teachers average almost 50k.. and start comfortably over 30.

Which means teachers (again, in Georgia) average about 10k per annum better than the overall state average. (And, since those averages are based on mean payscales, not median payscales - it means teachers are already paid substantially better than most of the rest of us).

Now, I'm not saying paying teachers is bad... or that they should live in poverty... but I also don't see reason to believe that throwing an extra 10k per annum at teachers is going to improve education. Spend the same amount of money on MORE teachers, instead of more money on the same teachers - we can be pretty sure we'll at least get a good return from smaller class sizes.


Edit: Those payscales come from here: http://www.bls.gov/OES/current/oes_ga.htm#b00-0000
Ok, ignoring the whole mean vs median thing, there's a few small things I'd like to bring up. One, how many jobs that "most of the rest of us" in Georgia have require 4-year degrees? Instead of looking at a pay scale via the rest of the state, look at teacher pay vs other professionals who are required to have at least a BA/BS and (possibly, I do not know the education laws of Georgia, but most of the rest of the US has this requirement for their teachers) have to be actively working on a MA/MS/MEd?

Two, having such a high mean for teacher salaries sends up warning flags. Teachers usually top out around the 50k mark, so if it's up that high, you're looking at a lot of older teachers who have topped out of the pay scale and not a lot of newer teachers, which brings us to point 2.a

2.a The whole issue of teacher pay is that, again compared to other professional fields, is that it doesn't start out too high and doesn't go to high either. This makes it harder to attract talented folks, especially in science and math, to education because they can make a lot more money elsewhere. The whole system, instead of trying to get the best into teaching, is set up with the hope that enough people are just nutty enough to want to teach and will ignore the low pay and other issues. It's a 1950's notion where it was thought that a teacher wouldn't be the primary breadwinner for a family because only women teach and so on.

Not saying that smaller class sizes wouldn't be great, because they would be, but when we have a nationwide teacher shortage (the education colleges out there just can't keep up with demand and not enough people with a BA/BS are willing to get their credentials) AND about 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years, it's going to be hard to have those smaller class sizes without something to attract people to teaching in the first place.

FCC? The guys that regulate television?

....

....


Yeah, okay, actually, I'm on board, fuck their budget.

Yeah, no more FCC = BETTER SCHOOLS

Yeah, no more FCC = BETTER SCHOOLS

I was thinking "no more FCC= BETTER SHOWS", but whatever, win-win.

They told me it was to keep kids from being aggressive from eating meat. Hey, I eat lots of meat but the food was awesome.

Sounds like a real good school. :rolleyes:

Spend the same amount of money on MORE teachers, instead of more money on the same teachers - we can be pretty sure we'll at least get a good return from smaller class sizes.


Edit: Those payscales come from here: http://www.bls.gov/OES/current/oes_ga.htm#b00-0000

Instead of that, my state is going to try firing teachers and having bigger classes. 30 kindergarteners, anyone? -_-,,

Ok, ignoring the whole mean vs median thing, there's a few small things I'd like to bring up. One, how many jobs that "most of the rest of us" in Georgia have require 4-year degrees? Instead of looking at a pay scale via the rest of the state, look at teacher pay vs other professionals who are required to have at least a BA/BS and (possibly, I do not know the education laws of Georgia, but most of the rest of the US has this requirement for their teachers) have to be actively working on a MA/MS/MEd?

Two, having such a high mean for teacher salaries sends up warning flags. Teachers usually top out around the 50k mark, so if it's up that high, you're looking at a lot of older teachers who have topped out of the pay scale and not a lot of newer teachers, which brings us to point 2.a

2.a The whole issue of teacher pay is that, again compared to other professional fields, is that it doesn't start out too high and doesn't go to high either. This makes it harder to attract talented folks, especially in science and math, to education because they can make a lot more money elsewhere. The whole system, instead of trying to get the best into teaching, is set up with the hope that enough people are just nutty enough to want to teach and will ignore the low pay and other issues. It's a 1950's notion where it was thought that a teacher wouldn't be the primary breadwinner for a family because only women teach and so on.

Not saying that smaller class sizes wouldn't be great, because they would be, but when we have a nationwide teacher shortage (the education colleges out there just can't keep up with demand and not enough people with a BA/BS are willing to get their credentials) AND about 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years, it's going to be hard to have those smaller class sizes without something to attract people to teaching in the first place.

I've never heard of the "working on an MA/MS/MEd" requirement, and California has some of the most strenuous credentialing requirements in the nation. It's true that the pay can start out low (although it varies by district--last I heard, new Oakland teachers earned in the low 40Ks, while in Pleasanton it starts at around 63K) but salaries do increase through years put in--they can actually max out around 90K. And the retirement is good. Too bad my state can't afford us anymore.

I've never heard of the "working on an MA/MS/MEd" requirement, and California has some of the most strenuous credentialing requirements in the nation. It's true that the pay can start out low (although it varies by district--last I heard, new Oakland teachers earned in the low 40Ks, while in Pleasanton it starts at around 63K) but salaries do increase through years put in--they can actually max out around 90K. And the retirement is good. Too bad my state can't afford us anymore.
Really? You have no requirements to continue college education?

Nevada requires teachers to carry at least 3 credits towards continuing education per year if said teacher is not teaching summer school.

That's awesome. They want to educate you, so they stop you from reading what you willingly choose to read.
I had that when i was in year 10. I asked my English teacher if I could do my book report on Brave New World. He told me I couldn't, as I 'wasn't old enough' to read it yet. I tried to argue that my wanting to read it proved I was but he was adamant I was 'too young' and refused to let me borrow it from the school library.
In the end I got my older brother to borrow it for me. Teacher was an ass and gave me a lousy grade for my book report, more out of spite than anything.

Yeah, no more FCC = BETTER SCHOOLS

No more public education = better schools

Really? You have no requirements to continue college education?

Nevada requires teachers to carry at least 3 credits towards continuing education per year if said teacher is not teaching summer school.

Except in Clark County, where, like any county with over 400,000 people, teachers are instead required to submit to a cervical sample, blood testing, and not less than 15 hours performing with Cirque du Soleil.

Except in Clark County, where, like any county with over 400,000 people, teachers are instead required to submit to a cervical sample, blood testing, and not less than 15 hours performing with Cirque du Soleil.

What about the male teachers?

What about the male teachers?

We admittedly have a hard time getting the sample, but rules are rules.

Man complains that doctor won’t give him a Pap smear

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/27/man-complains-that-doctor-wont-give-him-a-pap-smear/

Man complains that doctor won’t give him a Pap smear

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/27/man-complains-that-doctor-wont-give-him-a-pap-smear/

Dude, dude, we have to get that pregnant guy in on this!

Except in Clark County, where, like any county with over 400,000 people, teachers are instead required to submit to a cervical sample, blood testing, and not less than 15 hours performing with Cirque du Soleil.
Which is why when the Vegas recruiters came to campus I ran in the OTHER direction (And bounced off a wall, but eventually I got away).

no, we can't, read my first post in this thread because you are wrong

The source you links to... well, you already cited the important part: "You’d have to cut the average class almost in half to get the same boost that you’d get if you switched from an average teacher to a teacher in the eighty-fifth percentile."

What does that mean? It means that the difference between an eighty-fifth percentile teacher and an average teacher... can be matched by...

...yes, that's right... by halving class sizes.

Which is why when the Vegas recruiters came to campus I ran in the OTHER direction (And bounced off a wall, but eventually I got away).

I heard next year, they're going to use tranq guns and bring in boatloads of Filipinos.

Ok, ignoring the whole mean vs median thing, there's a few small things I'd like to bring up. One, how many jobs that "most of the rest of us" in Georgia have require 4-year degrees?


I'll likely be coming back to that - teaching doesn't 'require' a 4 year degree. The academic qualifications that exist are nothing to do with what the job 'requires'.

It's another case of 'qualifications' being used as DIS-qualifications.


Instead of looking at a pay scale via the rest of the state, look at teacher pay vs other professionals who are required to have at least a BA/BS and (possibly, I do not know the education laws of Georgia, but most of the rest of the US has this requirement for their teachers) have to be actively working on a MA/MS/MEd?


As far as I know, Georgia doesn't require the ongoing education, although I think it does require constant Continuing Education Unit advancement.


Two, having such a high mean for teacher salaries sends up warning flags. Teachers usually top out around the 50k mark,


Not in Georgia. Somewhere in the high 70's, I saw.


...so if it's up that high, you're looking at a lot of older teachers who have topped out of the pay scale and not a lot of newer teachers, which brings us to point 2.a


No, according the the table of salaries I saw for 2007, it would mean that the average is being artificially heightened a little by an unusually high weight of 10-year-plus veterans. Which fits with complaints I've heard that there aren't enough new teachers.


2.a The whole issue of teacher pay is that, again compared to other professional fields, is that it doesn't start out too high and doesn't go to high either. This makes it harder to attract talented folks, especially in science and math, to education because they can make a lot more money elsewhere. The whole system, instead of trying to get the best into teaching, is set up with the hope that enough people are just nutty enough to want to teach and will ignore the low pay and other issues. It's a 1950's notion where it was thought that a teacher wouldn't be the primary breadwinner for a family because only women teach and so on.


The problem is - it's not actually set up for either extreme. It's not geared to get 'the best' into teaching OR to attract those that are 'just nutty enough'. It's designed to make prices somewhat uniform, and to establish a set of arbitrary qualifications to maintain control over the profession.

People that would make very good teachers end up working in management positions, training departments... home schooling... coaching, all kinds of alternatives, because the academic DISqualification system stops them becoming teachers.

I'm not saying teachers don't need to be educated - but practical teacher training and vocational qualifications would solve most of the 'problems' our education system complains about.


Not saying that smaller class sizes wouldn't be great, because they would be, but when we have a nationwide teacher shortage (the education colleges out there just can't keep up with demand and not enough people with a BA/BS are willing to get their credentials) AND about 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years, it's going to be hard to have those smaller class sizes without something to attract people to teaching in the first place.

And we're back to the DISqualifications. You don't need a BA/BS to teach. We could have classes of 10 kids all across the country.

In NYC you can start with a BA, but if you do not complete a MA/MS within five years, your teaching certification is pulled, you lose your job, and you have to begin the entire licensing process all over again. Note that this means taking licensing tests that cost hundreds of dollars and, if you're as unlucky as my colleague was and they've changed the certification requirements, you have to go take more classes (several hundreds of dollars each) because the old certification route is no longer valid to teachers entering the system.

I had that when i was in year 10. I asked my English teacher if I could do my book report on Brave New World. He told me I couldn't, as I 'wasn't old enough' to read it yet. I tried to argue that my wanting to read it proved I was but he was adamant I was 'too young' and refused to let me borrow it from the school library.
In the end I got my older brother to borrow it for me. Teacher was an ass and gave me a lousy grade for my book report, more out of spite than anything.
Did you ask another English teacher to read it? Or his or her chairperson? I don't doubt your ability to read what you want to (I was stuck with the same problem when I was a kid till my mom went to the local public library and told them, "She's already read everything in the children section because she's three grades ahead on her reading level, let her take whatever she wants from the adult section.") but it is just possible that your book report wasn't very good.

No more public education = better schools

Nore more public education = general population even dumber

Good for the rich making their money off fools, I guess.

The source you links to... well, you already cited the important part: "You’d have to cut the average class almost in half to get the same boost that you’d get if you switched from an average teacher to a teacher in the eighty-fifth percentile."

What does that mean? It means that the difference between an eighty-fifth percentile teacher and an average teacher... can be matched by...

...yes, that's right... by halving class sizes.

ah yes let us halve the class sizes and put half of the students in a classroom with an average teacher and the other half of the students in a classroom with.. oh wait there is no other teacher available to teach the course because we have a distressing shortage of teachers

too bad you don't know a thing you're talking about

ah yes let us halve the class sizes and put half of the students in a classroom with an average teacher and the other half of the students in a classroom with.. oh wait there is no other teacher available to teach the course because we have a distressing shortage of teachers

too bad you don't know a thing you're talking about
Too bad *you* don't know a thing you're talking about. There are *plenty* of qualified teachers around who can't teach because school boards don't want to or can't pay them.
See: ATRs in New York for an example.

ah yes let us halve the class sizes and put half of the students in a classroom with an average teacher and the other half of the students in a classroom with.. oh wait there is no other teacher available to teach the course because we have a distressing shortage of teachers

too bad you don't know a thing you're talking about

Actually, where I live in the SF Bay Area, we have an excess of teachers, many of whom cannot find permanent (non-subbing) work because there's no money for their salaries. Right now in my school district there are at least a few dozen credentialed teachers looking for work. Yet, because of budget cuts, my district is looking at INCREASING class size and cutting even more jobs.

Certainly this isn't the case everywhere--but neither is your scenario. Best not to tell people what they don't know until you're aware of what YOU don't know.

Too bad *you* don't know a thing you're talking about. There are *plenty* of qualified teachers around who can't teach because school boards don't want to or can't pay them.
See: ATRs in New York for an example.

Ah, dammit, you just beat me.

Think of it as dual-coast tag-teaming.

No more public education = better schools

Tell me more of this magical fantasy land you live in.

it must be tough to get into a school that good.

Not really. My daughter was truant an average of 3 days a week and never turned in her homework. When her advisor and I threatened her with continuation school she laughed out loud and continued her wayward behavior. That's all it took. Within two days she was in continuation high school.

She completed two years of school in one year, challenging most of her classes and maintaining a 3.7 gpa. She graduated right on time, with honors (this from a 1.97 gpa and the fear that she would never graduate). She now has a Master's from Loma Linda University.

It really is the best system for the students. Unfortunately, as things stand now, no state could afford it on the necessary scale. In fact, in many parts of California, continuation school is rapidly becoming a holding cell for students that the regular system can't manage rather than a viable educational alternative.

Eh, just putting forward my ideas. I never hated my tofu-bacon and cheese sandwiches or tofu paninis.
Good food or not, having only vegetarian food is unfair.
With the unlucky part, I'd have to say Shit Happens. Kids get unlucky and get bad teachers all the time.
Kids have lots of teachers. One bad one won't ruin their lives. If teachers are depending on getting their class to work to pay their bills and buy food then a bad class will ruin their lives.
I was thinking "no more FCC= BETTER SHOWS", but whatever, win-win.

Seconded.

In our local area we have a surplus of teachers.... for history/english. I know several people who graduated with credentials in the last few years and can't find work because those subjects have a glut of people.

Math/science teachers on the other hand are being actively recruited. Almost all of my upper division chem classes have had people come to talk to us about big scholarship opportunities if we wanted to teach, among other things. So when talking about teacher shortages/surpluses, its important to distinguish what subjects. Some are harder than others.

And of course, mathematicians and scientists can make better money elsewhere.

I could have stayed in the media field, but to be honest it was mindnumbingly boring and stressful. Now I have a job with better bennies that is exciting and stressful. ;)

And yeah, I'm in long enough that they'd have to fire a buttload of people before they got to me unless I fucked up by not doing the job, breaking the law, or hurting a kid... going on ten years experience is a nice thing.