NationStates Jolt Archive

Israel Palestine seems to stir up an awful lot of emotions normally resulting in people bickering in much the same way that they are out there.

In this thread I would like to see people contributing to positive and agreeable solutions and ideas that they believe will result in the peaceful resolve of the State of Israel and the State of Palestine.

I'm expecting this thread to be less lively than some of the other "who's fault is it" style debates.

Peace

Since one side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, and has as its primary goal the destruction of the state of Israel, and the genocide of every Jew, it's rather hard to come to an accomodation.

That's not a "fault" thing - regardless of who started what, if one party is completely against negotation, and all for continuing to kill at all costs, there will be no negotiations - and any that take place, including any ceasefires, will be meaningless - meant only by Hamas as a tool for more time to kill people.

let them continue killing each other its not that big a deal.

Since one side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Palestine, and has as its primary goal the destruction of the state of Palestine, and the genocide of every Palestinian, it's rather hard to come to an accomodation.

That's not a "fault" thing - regardless of who started what, if one party is completely against negotation, and all for continuing to kill at all costs, there will be no negotiations - and any that take place, including any ceasefires, will be meaningless - meant only by Israel as a tool for more time to kill people.

also true

let them continue killing each other its not that big a deal.



also true

It's not true that Israel has the goal of killing every Palestinian. What a load of crap.

It is true that Hamas has the goal of killing every Jew.

People, this is going to be hard but we're sounding like every other thread.

Now go back and read the first post and let's try again without going over all the old ground.

By the way. If you haven't got any ideas then don't post anything

It's not true that Israel has the goal of killing every Palestinian. What a load of crap.

seem to be doing a good job of it though eh?

It is true that Hamas has the goal of killing every Jew.

meh I wonder how those wizards got elected

By the way. If you haven't got any ideas then don't post anything

I think you will find my "we don't care" policy to be at the forefront of modern thinking on how to solve the issue

we don't care = no help for Israel in its conflict
we don't care = no help for fundies in blowing people up
we don't care = the only policy that promises success

People, this is going to be hard but we're sounding like every other thread.

Now go back and read the first post and let's try again without going over all the old ground.

By the way. If you haven't got any ideas then don't post anything

There is no "agreeable" solution.

We've tried over decades to implement "agreeable" solutions that they only pretended to agree on.

Look, Hamas wants to go down fighting to the last man - I say let them die as martyrs to a lost cause - let the Israelis subjugate Gaza (they seemed to have run it quite well before), and eliminate any resistance. Turn Gaza into a police state for about 40 years, and forcibly re-educate their children.

After a generation or two, problem solved.

I don't really know of a good peaceful way to reach some sort of agreement, unless by some magic the fundamentalist extremes of both sides are brought to realize how outrageously they're acting.

seem to be doing a good job of it though eh?



meh I wonder how those wizards got elected



I think you will find my "we don't care" policy to be at the forefront of modern thinking on how to solve the issue

we don't care = no help for Israel in its conflict
we don't care = no help for fundies in blowing people up
we don't care = the only policy that promises success

Clearly people do care else these threads would not get so many hits, including yourself so stop pretending. There was a time that people belived that the anglo/irish situation would never be resolved.

There are enough doers in this world, clearly you are not one of them.
So if your really don't care, stop posting and go away - or did you lie?

I'm lying right now.

Agreeable solution... Hmmm...

Amnesia gas. We saturate the whole area with amnesia gas that will temporarily knock them out. Then we bring in teams to remove all weapons and rearrange people randomly so nobody will know where they live. We destroy all historical and genealogical data. When they wake up, they will have no memories and no reason to hate eachother. Then we put on some mood music, get them all drunk and by the time they sort out what happened, they've all boinked a Palestinian and/or Israeli. :)

Agreeable solution... Hmmm...

Amnesia gas. We saturate the whole area with amnesia gas that will temporarily knock them out. Then we bring in teams to remove all weapons and rearrange people randomly so nobody will know where they live. We destroy all historical and genealogical data. When they wake up, they will have no memories and no reason to hate eachother. Then we put on some mood music, get them all drunk and by the time they sort out what happened, they've all boinked a Palestinian and/or Israeli. :)

I'm Galloism and I approve this message.

I'm lying right now.

Then you'd better stand up, Epimenides.

Hasn't the US done enough already? (Take that whichever way you like.)


;)

Agreeable solution... Hmmm...

Amnesia gas. We saturate the whole area with amnesia gas that will temporarily knock them out. Then we bring in teams to remove all weapons and rearrange people randomly so nobody will know where they live. We destroy all historical and genealogical data. When they wake up, they will have no memories and no reason to hate eachother. Then we put on some mood music, get them all drunk and by the time they sort out what happened, they've all boinked a Palestinian and/or Israeli. :)

if only it were possible. made me laugh, so best reply so far.

People with ideas like you should be encouraged, after all they are well meaning and sooner or later one of these crazy ideas might actually be "so crazy, it might just work"

keep 'em coming people, serious or not so long as they're well meaning

May I recommend the film "The Band's Visit" - I fine and beautiful (one of so many) examples of Israeli and Arab cooperation

"Let's let hamas and hezbollah and al-qaeda survive!" sounds suspiciously familiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time)...

Just play Guitar Hero over the piece of land. Head to Head on "Hotel California"

"Let's let hamas and hezbollah and al-qaeda survive!" sounds suspiciously familiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time)...

Not the same as Mr Chamberlain's white paper. During his trip the Germans weren't firing at him.

As a solution, how would letting these groups survive resolve anything? oh wait a minute, how silly, you were being sarcastic, you want them dead. So that's an interesting idea. Just a tiny little problem clever clogs.

What do these people look like? We need to know before we shoot them in case we hit innocent civilians. Or maybe to be safe we should choose just shoot people with beards.

Now go away and come back when you can make a positive contribution

Not the same as Mr Chamberlain's white paper. During his trip the Germans weren't firing at him.

As a solution, how would letting these groups survive resolve anything? oh wait a minute, how silly, you were being sarcastic, you want them dead. So that's an interesting idea. Just a tiny little problem clever clogs.

What do these people look like? We need to know before we shoot them in case we hit innocent civilians. Or maybe to be safe we should choose just shoot people with beards.

Now go away and come back when you can make a positive contribution

too late; I already made a useful contribution instead of flaming others.

And for the record, we already KNOW what their leaders look like. Get rid of them, and they'll collapse on themselves.

Unfortunately, those of us outside the conflict can't solve it. We can talk about solutions all day long, but implementation will always be up to the Israelis and Palestinians.

And, much like no amount of intervention will work with a drug addict until the addict himself comes to terms with the fact that he has a problem and wants to solve it, no peaceable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will ever occur until both sides decide they want to be peaceable.

People who want war and fighting will always find a way.

This may sound drastic, but what about "great wall" around the whole area,
and then only let through the innocents,
And toss back any combatant who might have slipped past.
Then you start to shrink the wall, and build new homes for the innocents, etc..

Or you could go with LG´s idea, I liked that one.

The only other option I can see would be if another supposedly messiah where to emerge and unite them.
But then we would have all sorts of other problems.
I´m thinking a new crusades here, only with muslims instead of christians.

They would have to want to end it themselves, for any peaceful solution to last.
Everything else would probably require outside force, and that not always on democratic terms.

Disclaimer; any or everything stated in this post in not necessarily my own viewpoint/opinion.

except these last 2 sentences, of course. ,)

People who want war and fighting will always find a way.

This may sound drastic, but what about "great wall" around the whole area,
and then only let through the innocents,
And toss back any combatant who might have slipped past.
Then you start to shrink the wall, and build new homes for the innocents, etc..

Or you could go with LG´s idea, I liked that one.

The only other option I can see would be if another supposedly messiah where to emerge and unite them.
But then we would have all sorts of other problems.
I´m thinking a new crusades here, only with muslims instead of christians.

They would have to want to end it themselves, for any peaceful solution to last.
Everything would probably require outside force, and that not always on democratic terms.

Disclaimer; any or everything stated in this post in not necessarily my own viewpoint/opinion.

except these last 2 sentences, of course. ,)

Wasn't your first idea already used? And besides how would they tell whose civilian and whose an enemy combatant? (not that Israel cares by the looks of it)
And well I doubt any things gonna bring a peaceful solution to this when neither side wants that.

Unfortunately, those of us outside the conflict can't solve it. We can talk about solutions all day long, but implementation will always be up to the Israelis and Palestinians.

And, much like no amount of intervention will work with a drug addict until the addict himself comes to terms with the fact that he has a problem and wants to solve it, no peaceable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will ever occur until both sides decide they want to be peaceable.

Yeah but we can talk about it like our opinions matter, that's always fun.

Peaceful solutions? Hah! Are you a Freshman in college or something? That's wishful thinking that cannot happen.

The only solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts comes in the form of what you see now. I have family in Israel and I've been there several times... This conflict is something that cannot be negotiated to an end... Westerners have too narrow of a world view to see that and it irritates me to no end.

too late; I already made a useful contribution instead of flaming others.

And for the record, we already KNOW what their leaders look like. Get rid of them, and they'll collapse on themselves.


Really? Useful to your ego perhaps.

We kill there leaders? and what of the chain of command all the way down to the janitor? How about the sons and daughters of the leaders.

Remember, the vacuum you leave will be filled with others. So once again, who are we shooting at?

Now try and return with a solution that might help

Maybe something involving superglue... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Peaceful solutions? Hah! Are you a Freshman in college or something? That's wishful thinking that cannot happen.

The only solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts comes in the form of what you see now. I have family in Israel and I've been there several times... This conflict is something that cannot be negotiated to an end... Westerners have too narrow of a world view to see that and it irritates me to no end.

England|Ireland... that one couldn't be resolved either.
No, I'm not at college, I just never gave up hope. You clearly did.

England|Ireland... that one couldn't be resolved either.
No, I'm not at college, I just never gave up hope. You clearly did.

To be fair, this conflict involves the Holy Land. That doesn't mean that it's impossible, but I do think it will be harder.

Think about it, this is an area in which 7 sects within a single church building have had a "war" of sorts against each other for generations - fighting over who controls what part of the church and thus which services, etc.

Really? Useful to your ego perhaps.

We kill there leaders? and what of the chain of command all the way down to the janitor? How about the sons and daughters of the leaders.

Remember, the vacuum you leave will be filled with others. So once again, who are we shooting at?

Now try and return with a solution that might help

What makes you think they've designed it to form a long line of succession? We're talking about people so immoral that they'd kill innocent people for money. Take out the right people, and we'll have multiple people thinking they're the only suitable replacement.

To be fair, this conflict involves the Holy Land. That doesn't mean that it's impossible, but I do think it will be harder.

Think about it, this is an area in which 7 sects within a single church building have had a "war" of sorts against each other for generations - fighting over who controls what part of the church and thus which services, etc.

Clearly we need to kill God then, about as easy a solution as any other alas.

England|Ireland... that one couldn't be resolved either.
No, I'm not at college, I just never gave up hope. You clearly did.

I'm just a Jew and therefore, I understand why Israel isn't interested in peaceful solutions... One only needs a quick history lesson on how many different nations have tried to wipe us off the face of the planet... Many of whom are related to the people Israel is fighting today!

We're quite tired of being targets for extermination... While I don't support wiping out Arabic people (I have several friends who are Arabs), I don't think Israel can let Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. push them around... Violence must be met with violence in this situation.

Offer surrounding nations things they want. Turkey entry to Europe. Assistance to Iran in building Nuclear power plants and lift trade embargos, working through each relevant nation to offer them things they'd rather have than be denied. Every one wants something. All of this offered with the proviso that they fund a rebuild project so that the people of Palestine have something better on the table than Hamas. Tie in joint construction projects with private Palestinian and Israeli companies to such a degree that to fight again would be an immediate collapse of both their economies.

Something like that, but worded a lot better by a clever person :)

Offer surrounding nations things they want. Turkey entry to Europe. Assistance to Iran in building Nuclear power plants and lift trade embargos, working through each relevant nation to offer them things they'd rather have than be denied. Every one wants something. All of this offered with the proviso that they fund a rebuild project so that the people of Palestine have something better on the table than Hamas. Tie in joint construction projects with private Palestinian and Israeli companies to such a degree that to fight again would be an immediate collapse of both their economies.

Something like that, but worded a lot better by a clever person :)

Not going to happen and the Israeli PM who even suggests that would become even less popular than Olmert.. (Note: That's pretty darn unpopular!)

I'm just a Jew and therefore, I understand why Israel isn't interested in peaceful solutions... One only needs a quick history lesson on how many different nations have tried to wipe us off the face of the planet... Many of whom are related to the people Israel is fighting today!

We're quite tired of being targets for extermination... While I don't support wiping out Arabic people (I have several friends who are Arabs), I don't think Israel can let Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. push them around... Violence must be met with violence in this situation.


Stop thinking it's just the Jews who are singled out for persecution.
The Israelites came out of Egypt, they fought and massacred the Canaanites to take there land. It may have been what their God told them to do, but it still makes a dark stain on their origins.

The Torah itself talks of genocide:
Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
There are loads more and it's crap, but there are extreme Jews who believe in every word to be the word of God

Bin your God all of you

So glad some of you aren't running things out there. It would make what we do have seem like a tea party. Boy some of you have serious violent tendencies.

I'm off to make dinner

Agreeable solution... Hmmm...

Amnesia gas. We saturate the whole area with amnesia gas that will temporarily knock them out. Then we bring in teams to remove all weapons and rearrange people randomly so nobody will know where they live. We destroy all historical and genealogical data. When they wake up, they will have no memories and no reason to hate eachother. Then we put on some mood music, get them all drunk and by the time they sort out what happened, they've all boinked a Palestinian and/or Israeli. :)

Need to remove their clothes and spike their drinking water with Viagra. ;)

Maybe something involving superglue... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

"Superglue, not only can you glue your helmet to a steel beam. but it brougth peace in the Gaza Strip."

Stop thinking it's just the Jews who are singled out for persecution.
The Israelites came out of Egypt, they fought and massacred the Canaanites to take there land. It may have been what their God told them to do, but it still makes a dark stain on their origins.

The Torah itself talks of genocide:
Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
There are loads more and it's crap, but there are extreme Jews who believe in every word to be the word of God

Bin your God all of you

You forget that the Talmud claims that any gentiles are nothing more than animals and their women are whores. (no direct quote at hand)

England|Ireland... that one couldn't be resolved either.
It still hasn't. As a direct result of devolution of power, Northern Ireland is effectively becoming a corporate theocracy. The DUP is worse than the most radical elements of American Republicanism, and Sinn Fein has been bought over with political power.

Don't think that because we're not killing each other things are now solved. The North is a shithole, and we have the political process to thank for it.

You forget that the Talmud claims that any non gentiles are nothing more than animals and their women are whores. (no direct quote at hand)

I think you have an extraneous "non" there. LOL

I think you have an extraneous "non" there. LOL

:) I'll pretend like I know what extraneous means.

Stop thinking it's just the Jews who are singled out for persecution.
The Israelites came out of Egypt, they fought and massacred the Canaanites to take there land. It may have been what their God told them to do, but it still makes a dark stain on their origins.

The Torah itself talks of genocide:
Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
There are loads more and it's crap, but there are extreme Jews who believe in every word to be the word of God

Bin your God all of you

You forget that the torah is just as false as the bible.

:) I'll pretend like I know what extraneous means.

Gentiles = non-Jews

So I don't think it's non gentiles who would be seen as nothing more than animals. =)

Gentiles = non-Jews

So I don't think it's non gentiles who would be seen as nothing more than animals. =)

Ahh right thanks.

How about a really big ship. We load all the Palestinians on the boat and send them off to I don't know Canada. Then after we get them all off the ship we sink them so they can't get back. By the time the get citizenship and get a job to build/buy another ship most will not want to go back in the first place.

Or we could pull the star trek move on them we put them all to sleep with the gas mentioned earlier. We setup a replica of the holy land in Nevada and we wake them up? We have a couple of religous type say" You guys did it.. you won. The whole place is yours."

"Superglue, not only can you glue your helmet to a steel beam. but it brougth peace in the Gaza Strip."

What a commercial!

Of course we would all like to see compromise in the Middle East. But it ain't gonna happen.

In order to achieve compromise, both parties have to be willing. While I suspect the Isrealis are slightly more open to compromise than the Palestinians, it's only slightly.

The Israelis are willing to let the Palestinians live as long as the Palestinians leave them alone. The Palestinians aren't willing to leave them alone.

The Israelis aren't willing to roll over and give up Israel. The Palestinians won't be happy until the Israelis are wiped out and Israel is, once again, Palestine. Tell me where, in this scenario, there is room for compromise?

How about a really big ship. We load all the Palestinians on the boat and send them off to I don't know Canada. Then after we get them all off the ship we sink them so they can't get back. By the time the get citizenship and get a job to build/buy another ship most will not want to go back in the first place.

Or we could pull the star trek move on them we put them all to sleep with the gas mentioned earlier. We setup a replica of the holy land in Nevada and we wake them up? We have a couple of religous type say" You guys did it.. you won. The whole place is yours."

Possibly the greatest idea ever. But to make it a really mean trick, put them in Mexico, and they'll soon get a rude awakening.

Of course we would all like to see compromise in the Middle East. But it ain't gonna happen.

In order to achieve compromise, both parties have to be willing. While I suspect the Isrealis are slightly more open to compromise than the Palestinians, it's only slightly.

The Israelis are willing to let the Palestinians live as long as the Palestinians leave them alone. The Palestinians aren't willing to leave them alone.

The Israelis aren't willing to roll over and give up Israel. The Palestinians won't be happy until the Israelis are wiped out and Israel is, once again, Palestine. Tell me where, in this scenario, there is room for compromise?

I suspect the Palestinians will settle for their land back without actually having to wipe out the Israelis. That's compromise. ;)

I suspect the Palestinians will settle for their land back without actually having to wipe out the Israelis. That's compromise. ;)

But, do you think the Israelis would be willing to give up Israel and become a landless nation once more? I kinda doubt it.

But, do you think the Israelis would be willing to give up Israel and become a landless nation once more? I kinda doubt it.

If I were the Israelis, I would remind the UK that this whole mess is their fault for promising the land to the Palestinians then to the Jews and give them Wales. *nod*

If I were the Israelis, I would remind the UK that this whole mess is their fault for promising the land to the Palestinians then to the Jews and give them Wales. *nod*

Aside from the UK's historic propensity for misreading reality and doing exactly the opposite of what's sensible (Gen. Burgoyne, George III, Prince Charles) (and you Brits not of the governing class, please forgive me), would you want Wales?

Of course we would all like to see compromise in the Middle East. But it ain't gonna happen.

In order to achieve compromise, both parties have to be willing. While I suspect the Isrealis are slightly more open to compromise than the Palestinians, it's only slightly.

The Israelis are willing to let the Palestinians live as long as the Palestinians leave them alone. The Palestinians aren't willing to leave them alone.

The Israelis aren't willing to roll over and give up Israel. The Palestinians won't be happy until the Israelis are wiped out and Israel is, once again, Palestine. Tell me where, in this scenario, there is room for compromise?

Rename the whole land Modern Judea.
The former Israelis word pronounce it Jew-dee-ah
The former Palestinians would pronounce it Juh-dee-ah

Take the USA out of Jerusalem so it will be called Jerlem

and relocate the ex-pat English that live on the Costa del Sol to Tel-Aviv and call it Tel-Un-other

Sink the Golan Heights so it becomes the Golan Lowlands
Gaza Sunset Strip, the new Vegas

The West Burbank could become a tax haven for film productions

The new flag of Modern Judea would be the Giant of Cerne Abbas with a beard

Clearly we need to kill God then, about as easy a solution as any other alas.

No need, he doesn't exist

No need, he doesn't exist
That's what'd make it an astonishing spectacle. The death of a non-existent entity would blow people's minds.

Aside from the UK's historic propensity for misreading reality and doing exactly the opposite of what's sensible (Gen. Burgoyne, George III, Prince Charles) (and you Brits not of the governing class, please forgive me), would you want Wales?

Would I trade disgruntled militants with nothing to lose in this life or the next for some creepy neighbors with a reputation for being a little too into their sheep?

Yep.

It still hasn't. As a direct result of devolution of power, Northern Ireland is effectively becoming a corporate theocracy. The DUP is worse than the most radical elements of American Republicanism, and Sinn Fein has been bought over with political power.

Don't think that because we're not killing each other things are now solved. The North is a shithole, and we have the political process to thank for it.

You're so right. Things were better when people were being killed. It's much worse now that the paperwork is in such a mess. - tosser

You're so right. Things were better when people were being killed. It's much worse now that the paperwork is in such a mess. - tosser

The violence in Northern Ireland was never as bad, never as callous, never as mindless as you see with Islamic militancy.

The difference in mentality between the Protestant and Catholic militants (as opposed to the Islamic militants of today) is strikingly large.

You forget that the torah is just as false as the bible.

I was make the reference as I was talking to a Jewish person.

I'm an Atheist, I didn't forget anything.

You're so right. Things were better when people were being killed. It's much worse now that the paperwork is in such a mess. - tosser
I didn't say it was worse (though Ulster's disgraceful and backwards attitudes to anyone it considers an "outsider" were less of a problem when they weren't being made into legislation). Just that we haven't solved it. We've covered the violence up by giving the thugs responsible for it exactly what they want, and we have a state of repression and greed as a result of it. It's early days yet to go exporting the "Northern Irish Peace Package".

I didn't say it was worse (though Ulster's disgraceful and backwards attitudes to anyone it considers an "outsider" were less of a problem when they weren't being made into legislation). Just that we haven't solved it. We've covered the violence up by giving the thugs responsible for it exactly what they want, and we have a state of repression and greed as a result of it. It's early days yet to go exporting the "Northern Irish Peace Package".

Seeing as the thrust of the thread makes reference to bloodshed, I should have been clearer that it is that problem that has been put to bed.

The difference in mentality between the Protestant and Catholic militants (as opposed to the Islamic militants of today) is strikingly large.
No it's not. They all just want comfortable and/or righteous lives at whatever expense they perceive necessary. That expense is merely thought higher for the Islamists than it is for the Unionist and Nationalist gangs.

Extremists are easy to understand. They follow the path they believe to be that of least resistance. One thing unifies all ground-level extremists - they are naive. They think that their actions will make things better, through some oversimplifications and misinformation on the part of their leaders and their peers. They might be driven to act through desperation, religious zeal or hope, or even through the basic human desire to be socially involved, but it is ultimately their assumptions that the actions they choose are constructive that leads them to pull triggers or bear arms.

The Extremist justifies his actions through personal reasoning. What is needed is the dissolution of any such justification. Social mobility is the key to all of this. Palestinians need to be able to feel like they are part of a society in which they participate, can contribute to and benefit from, rather than excluded and made vulnerable to ideological persuasion. Northern Ireland tried to do this through economics while otherwise maintaining the status quo, but a secular state of Israel would have so many more options open to it than that.

There is no solution. Israel would like to exist without being attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah, both of whom have no other goal except to utterly destroy Israel. The Islamists will not recognize Israel, ever.

If we want an easy, hands off measure, I'd say let Israel do what it needs to do so it can defend itself. It, after all, is preferrable to what Hamas and Hezbollah would put there if they ever won. Admittedly, it's not a solution, but what other solution is there? As long as there are Palestinians, they will fight Israel, any idea of a peace process is a joke.

Stop the settlement building on the west bank, and remove restrictions on movement within the West Bank
Empower Fatah, but do that behind the scenes
Make a tentative agreement with Fatah, with the promise to return most of the land including half of Jerusalem
Continue to raise the standards of living for the Palestinians, making sure Fatah gets the credit for the economic growth
Arm Fatah, and help them topple Hamas in Gaza
Include Egypt, Jordan and Syria in serious peace talks
Introduce observers/peacekeepers from neutral countries


That would be a start.

But, do you think the Israelis would be willing to give up Israel and become a landless nation once more? I kinda doubt it.

"Their land back" does not mean that Israel needs to cease to exist. It means "Return to the 1967-borders." And there could be some more compromise there, I'm sure, as long as the important resources also were available to the Palestinians.

Since one side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, and has as its primary goal the destruction of the state of Israel, and the genocide of every Jew, it's rather hard to come to an accomodation.
Preposterous.
1.The "sides" are Israel and Palestine. Hamas isn't the entire palestinian population.
2.Reductio ad hitlerum isn't a valid argument. "Genocide of every jew", yea right.



That's not a "fault" thing - regardless of who started what, if one party is completely against negotation, and all for continuing to kill at all costs, there will be no negotiations - and any that take place, including any ceasefires, will be meaningless - meant only by Hamas as a tool for more time to kill people.

What party is completely against negotiation and takes ceasefires only as a tool for more time to kill people?
Let me guess: perhaps the party that FOR THE LAST 18 MONTHS trained his soldiers for invasion in a replica of Gaza built in the Negev desert? (yep, was in the news on TV and on the newspapers today).
Or perhaps the party which two years ago razed half of Lebanon, using minelets and killing indiscriminately peaceful people and Hezbollah militants. And failing, once more, to stop Hezbollah - the excuse the israeli government used to justify the aggression on Lebanon iirc.

It would seem a logical consequence, but somehow I guess that you weren't meaning "that" side.

Don't get me wrong: I don't support Hamas or Hezbollah. But neither can I support the actions of an expansionist, militarist executive like the Kadivah cabinet (or, even worse, an eventual Likud cabinet). I don't like people who blast bombs in crowded marketplaces... be it palestinian suicide bombers in israeli marketplaces or israeli aircraft-dropped bombs over palestinian marketplaces.

The only viable solution would be a huge armed UN interposition force, including EU troops and troops from the Arab League. But this can be done ONLY with green light from both Israel and Palestine.

Anyone who thinks that Hamas would compromise is foolish, however, the normal Palestinian citizens I expect are much more willing to compromise.

As long as there are Palestinians, they will fight Israel, any idea of a peace process is a joke.

France and Germany are best pals now, after about 1000 years of continual wars and various invasions on both sides.

There can be a solution.

To be honest, unfortunately I'm very skeptical of a peaceful co-existence of an Israeli state and a Palestinian state side by side.

Anyone who thinks that Hamas would compromise is foolish, however, the normal Palestinian citizens I expect are much more willing to compromise.

There are moderate voices even within Hamas; They're just few and far appart, as well as easily drowned out by the ravings of the more radical members.

There are moderate voices even within Hamas; They're just few and far appart, as well as easily drowned out by the ravings of the more radical members.

Unfortunately, I think the more radical members are also the more powerful members.

Unfortunately, I think the more radical members are also the more powerful members.

That they are. The moderates often find theselves under fire from both inside and outside the organization.

I think Hamas has to be defeated (or at least the radical elements, if possible), I don't think we will ever get anywhere with Hamas in power. Hamas really are an utterly despicable organisation when I think about it.

I think Hamas has to be defeated (or at least the radical elements, if possible), I don't think we will ever get anywhere with Hamas in power. Hamas really are an utterly despicable organisation when I think about it.

I would agree, being defeated or made irrelevant/harmless. The question is how you would go about reaching such a goal. I don't think you could do it by military means alone.

I would agree, being defeated or made irrelevant/harmless. The question is how you would go about reaching such a goal. I don't think you could do it by military means alone.

What other means do you have in mind?

"Their land back" does not mean that Israel needs to cease to exist. It means "Return to the 1967-borders." And there could be some more compromise there, I'm sure, as long as the important resources also were available to the Palestinians.

Would be nice. But, given that extremist exploiters of the Palestinians want nothing less than the destruction of Israel, I doubt it would work for very long. Once the 1967 borders were reinstated, groups like Hamas would then be agitating for more and the Palestinians, being mostly poor and ill-educated (through no fault of their own - the fault is squarely with wealthy Arab agitators who use them as tools for their own ends), are easy targets for that sort of exploitation.

You see, I don't really believe this is a problem between Israel and the Palestinians. It's a problem between Israel and the major Islamic nations. The Palestinians are pawns. They and the Israelis probably would have worked things out satisfactorily on their own if outside influences had not intervened.

The only solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is to utterly destroy.......someone, I forget who.

In this thread I would like to see people contributing to positive and agreeable solutions and ideas that they believe will result in the peaceful resolve of the State of Israel and the State of Palestine.

I have no idea. It's hard to see a way out from here, though the framework of a reasonable compromise has been clear for a long time: security and peace for Israel within the pre-1967 borders, a viable, genuinely independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and compensation (but not return) for Palestinian refugees.

Once the 1967 borders were reinstated, groups like Hamas would then be agitating for more

...and if they attacked Israel, Israel could and would respond with as much ferocity as it has always responded to attacks. And it would be a fairly unambiguous case of self-defense for it to do so (unlike the present situation).

Not to mention that with a sovereign, economically viable state, the Palestinian position would no longer be such that war with Israel made any sense: they would have too much to lose.

What other means do you have in mind?
Make them irrelevant. Boost the opposition, and give them power back. Make the Palestinians see that Fatah can produce results without it being seen as becoming an Israeli lapdog, while the actions of Hamas only causes violent retribution.
If Abbas had gotten a good offer during the cease fire, and had been involved in serious negotiations while the Palestinians in the West Bank had seen settlements starting to be demolished and felt restrictions on their movement be lofted, I think the Palestinians would have rallied around him. Without a major air offensive and invasion, Hamas would slowly have crumbled.

Also, one could try splitting Hamas. Support the few moderate voices. Don't kill them just because they belong to Hamas.

Would be nice. But, given that extremist exploiters of the Palestinians want nothing less than the destruction of Israel, I doubt it would work for very long. Once the 1967 borders were reinstated, groups like Hamas would then be agitating for more and the Palestinians, being mostly poor and ill-educated (through no fault of their own - the fault is squarely with wealthy Arab agitators who use them as tools for their own ends), are easy targets for that sort of exploitation
So Israel would benefit from making poverty and lack of education in the Palestinian areas a thing of the past.

The only solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is to utterly destroy.......someone, I forget who.

The Dutch!

The Israelites came out of Egypt,

No, they didn't.

they fought and massacred the Canaanites to take there land.

No, they didn't.

As a historical source, the Bible is horribly inaccurate.

The only solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is to utterly destroy.......someone, I forget who.

Why choose? :D

the best way to get the two to get along is to give them a larger enemy who wants to destroy both of them, then they have to team together to fight this new menace and before you know it they'l stop killing each other....how's about the US? just about everyone else hates them, i'm sure two more small nations won't make a whole lot of difference.

and if that doesn't work lock the leaders of both in a small room until they've sorted out their differences, that or the naughty step for both of them.

Agreeable solution... Hmmm...

Amnesia gas. We saturate the whole area with amnesia gas that will temporarily knock them out. Then we bring in teams to remove all weapons and rearrange people randomly so nobody will know where they live. We destroy all historical and genealogical data. When they wake up, they will have no memories and no reason to hate eachother. Then we put on some mood music, get them all drunk and by the time they sort out what happened, they've all boinked a Palestinian and/or Israeli. :)

Nope. What you'll get is people all trying to live in the upscale parts of town that aren't bombed out shells with tatters for infrastructure (anywhere out of Gaza), and anyone who doesn't look like them is going to be tossed in there because they'll make fine scapegoats for the mass amnesia.

The universe builds better idiots than the engineers can build idiot proof things, and hate mongering idiocy is one of the hardest to idiot proof against.

If I were the Israelis, I would remind the UK that this whole mess is their fault for promising the land to the Palestinians then to the Jews and give them Wales. *nod*

There's also Birobidjan.

"Let's let hamas and hezbollah and al-qaeda survive!" sounds suspiciously familiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time)...

Godwins Law fail, and for the record, I didn't even have to follow that link to know what the hell you were talking about.

What makes you think they've designed it to form a long line of succession? We're talking about people so immoral that they'd kill innocent people for money. Take out the right people, and we'll have multiple people thinking they're the only suitable replacement.

You, sir, are full of shit. No flaming. Just the truth. (tm)

Since one side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, and has as its primary goal the destruction of the state of Israel, and the genocide of every Jew, .

....according to you, an individual who has prevuiously proposed the extermination of muslims.

Turn Gaza into a police state for about 40 years, .

Again?

I'm Galloism and I approve this message.

Thats my line!

Dig a huge trench around Gaza and cut it off from the mainland. Strap millions and millions of those orange plastic floaty things to it and push it off into the ocean, and use tug boats to drag it into the middle of the Mediterranean sea far from any Isrealies.

Problem solved.

No, they didn't.



No, they didn't.

As a historical source, the Bible is horribly inaccurate.


Oh yes they did!

It's not in the bible - why did you think I'd got my info from there?

Send a blind man with one arm, no legs and a gun into France. Once he's defeated the entire army, annex a small portion in the south (so its nice and warm, I'm not a cruel person). Give that to the Palestinians.

Since one side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, and has as its primary goal the destruction of the state of Israel, and the genocide of every Jew, it's rather hard to come to an accomodation.

"...and the other side refuses to acknowledge the existence of Palestine and think they have the divine right to the land..."

Dig a huge trench around Gaza and cut it off from the mainland. Strap millions and millions of those orange plastic floaty things to it and push it off into the ocean, and use tug boats to drag it into the middle of the Mediterranean sea far from any Isrealies.

Problem solved.


It's already there: it's called Cyprus! If there's space for Greeks and Turks, then we could also fit Palestinians in it!

It's already there: it's called Cyprus! If there's space for Greeks and Turks, then we could also fit Palestinians in it!

Put them between the Greeks and the Turks...O that'd be a great party...