NationStates Jolt Archive

Osama bin Laden will go down in history as the greatest military strategist and soldier in history, on par with Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan.

With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.

How can one smelly bearded caveman defeat the two most powerful countries of all time?? By drawing them into unwinnable wars, tricking their leaders into engaging in unsustainable and hyperinflationary military spending and dangerous civilian "economic stimuli", with the result that his enemies' homelands become Keynesian disaster zones with terminally stagnating economies.

Bin Laden's defeat of the US is particularly brilliant. The 9/11 attack was perfectly and brilliantly timed to coincide with the bursting of the NASDAQ bubble and recession. Faced with the twin crises of 9/11 and the dotcom bust, the US government attempted to raise civilian morale by engaging in dangerous bubble-blowing activities that resulted in the famous real estate bubble, whose recent bursting will cripple the American economy for decades to come. Even more brilliantly for Bin Laden, GWB's sucessor BHO will engage in precisely the same disastrous hyperinflationary economic policies that Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and GWB himself propounded in times of crisis, thus serving to drive the final nails into Old Glory's coffin.

Could things have turned out differently? Could the US somehow avoided being totally routed and demolished by the military genius known as Osama bin Laden? If, in response to 9/11 GWB immediately slashed military spending, gave in to bin Laden's totally reasonable demands, and closed up all overseas American military bases, withdrew from Germany, Korea, Okinawa, and Saudi Arabia, the USA would have had the opportunity to rebuild its economic strength following the NASDAQ recession.

If GWB and Alan Greenspan had any backbone whatsoever they would've let the 2001 recession run its natural course instead of attempting to replace the dotcom bubble with an even larger and more reckless real estate bubble. Instead, the thoroughly stupid American electorate demanded immediate satisfaction at the expense of long term survivability, and cried out to their politicians to go on wild military adventures overseas, while also "fixing" the economy with short-sighted technocratic tinkering with the money supply.

GWB squandered American treasure, blood, and lives, bringing the United States of America to its knees, and BHO has promised to continue Bush's policies to bury American lives and gold in Afghanistan, fan ever-larger economic bubbles and mirages with fake economic stimuluses, finally bringing this once-great country face-first into the mud.

wut -_-

Bored, are we?

What. The. Hell. Is. This.

wut

I suspect reports of America's demise are greatly exaggerated however, if NSG could muster intelligent rebuttals to the OP, I'd be pleasantly surprised.

I like it as an opening debate post.

Also, 'one smelly bearded caveman' detracts from it somewhat, he was the son of a very rich family.

EDIT: *including 3 words in the first paragraph

My own thoughts would be that the main engineers of the Soviet Union's demise was the Soviet system itself.

In terms of the US, it attracts the best minds in the world to its higher education system and also funds that system very well, due to that alone, and regardless of whether it becomes a two-tier culture, America as a power that will remain in place for quite some time.

Osama Bin Laden is certainly an interesting actor on the world stage and I somewhat agree that the reaction to 9/11 and the tech bubble go a long way to explaining the problems of 2008.

While the OP goes a bit overboard, its sad how much truth it contains. Its astounding the damage Bin Laden and his followers action's have helped bring about, and how weak America now is. But I would not say that Bin Laden has crippled America, so much as that in its ill-considered response to Bin Laden, America has crippled itself.

*snip* Yes, we're doomed. Might as well go ahead and divvy ourselves up to other countries.

tl;dr

the last thing Osama would want is for us to take our head wear off:p

While the OP goes a bit overboard, its sad how much truth it contains. Its astounding the damage Bin Laden and his followers action's have helped bring about, and how weak America now is. But I would not say that Bin Laden has crippled America, so much as that in its ill-considered response to Bin Laden, America has crippled itself.

I would even go as far as to say that Bin Laden deserves nothing more than a footnote - and that the Blame lies with the silly concept often referred to as "The American Dream" ;)

I would even go as far as to say that Bin Laden deserves nothing more than a footnote - and that the Blame lies with the silly concept often referred to as "The American Dream" ;)

Which relates to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan in what way? Seems like the OP was congratulating bin Laden for drawing us into those conflicts, though I only skimmed his post.

Are you suggesting that we build a monument (http://satirewire.com/news/0109/binladen.shtml)?

Which relates to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan in what way? Seems like the OP was congratulating bin Laden for drawing us into those conflicts, though I only skimmed his post.

Oh no - he gave him credit for the whole economic recession. Which in all fairness was indeed helped by the costly military.

sniptastication

I don't even really want to debate that. Do you want to know why?

Because it makes sense.

BUT! I will debate that he will not go down in history as a great anything because the powers that be would never allow that.

That and I don't know if he would have had the economic foresight. :p

In my opinion, its very wrong to describe any military strategist, terrorist leader or suchlike as "great". Anyone involved in the organisation and running of wars is organising and coordinating plans to kill thousands or even millions of people, an increasing proportion of which are innocent civilians. Not to say that war can never be justified, where one side is committing genocide, war can be a sad necessity to remove the culprits from power and bring them to justice. But even then, it takes a very particular type of person to be able to organise a campaign that will inevitably kill people. And that sort of person is a cold-blooded killer. Describing such persons as 'great' and esteeming them in any way is to my mind totally bizarre.

Now, lets move onto Ozzy B and his merry band of bearded folk. Osama bin Laden has had 'success' with limited forces against a far greater power? Its a funny sort of success when he's either dead or hiding in a cave for the rest of his life, far more of his side have been killed than Americans, his attacks have given a cloak of legitimacy (albeit one that has rather slipped) for the American imperialism he depises through the discourse of the 'war on terror', and his fellow Muslims in developed countries are marginalised due to the association of Islam with terrorism. America is fighting a war it cannot win, yes, but Osama bin Laden has hardly 'won' either.

Since when was Temujin a strategist? That was Subotai's job.

I used to play with the interesting theory that Osama Bin Laden would be the next Jesus in years to come. Little enough is really known about him for legend not to grow and, as doom-mongers keep telling us, when the Muslims become the dominant culture on the planet, it'll be a nice unifying story of the man who conjured the Miracle of the Two Towers and brought down the great satan.

Re-written as a wise and humble cave dweller in the desert, it'll all be the same yet somewhat different in 2, 000 years time.

The popular NSG topic will be 'Did Osama Bin Laden really exist?'

Can't wait.

I used to play with the interesting theory that Osama Bin Laden would be the next Jesus in years to come. Little enough is really known about him for legend not to grow and, as doom-mongers keep telling us, when the Muslims become the dominant culture on the planet, it'll be a nice unifying story of the man who conjured the Miracle of the Two Towers and brought down the great satan.

Re-written as a wise and humble cave dweller in the desert, it'll all be the same yet somewhat different in 2, 000 years time.

The popular NSG topic will be 'Did Osama Bin Laden really exist?'

Can't wait.

And then someone will look in the NSG archives, spot this thread and your post, and worship you as a great prophet for your startling knowledge of the future.

All hail Barringtonia! Great holy prophet of our God, Bin Laden!

All hail Barringtonia! Great holy prophet of our God, Bin Laden!

Fuck A, now go kill Christians, bally lot of them.

For the record, this prediction was also made in early 2007 by me: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12356522&postcount=8

The popular NSG topic will be 'Did Osama Bin Laden really exist?'

Nah. He was a virtual persona, created by the UN to UN-nazi the world using the magical pogo stick.
His resurrection as Ackbar Obama however cannot be denied.

The neat thing is that the Jews will still be blamed for everything.

[QUOTE With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.QUOTE]

The OP completely ignores (or is ignorant) of the fact that the CIA was instrumental in arming and training the mujahadeen in how to fight the Soviet invaders during the Carter and Reagan administrations. In particular, they were given Stinger missle launchers, used with excellent results against the Soviets, who due to the rugged terrain had to ferry many troops and supplies in and out using helicopters.

There are even allegations that the CIA funded and trained OBL himself, although both the CIA and him deny this. Who knows?

The neat thing is that the Jews will still be blamed for everything.

And I wonder why...

[QUOTE With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.QUOTE]

The OP completely ignores (or is ignorant) of the fact that the CIA was instrumental in arming and training the mujahadeen in how to fight the Soviet invaders during the Carter and Reagan administrations. In particular, they were given Stinger missle launchers, used with excellent results against the Soviets, who due to the rugged terrain had to ferry many troops and supplies in and out using helicopters.

There are even allegations that the CIA funded and trained OBL himself, although both the CIA and him deny this. Who knows?

When are you going to learn? When on the argument, it's better to pull arguments straight out of your ass than to let such trivial matters of "facts" or "accuracy" get in the way of saying something stupid. Duh.

[QUOTE With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.QUOTE]

The OP completely ignores (or is ignorant) of the fact that the CIA was instrumental in arming and training the mujahadeen in how to fight the Soviet invaders during the Carter and Reagan administrations. In particular, they were given Stinger missle launchers, used with excellent results against the Soviets, who due to the rugged terrain had to ferry many troops and supplies in and out using helicopters.

There are even allegations that the CIA funded and trained OBL himself, although both the CIA and him deny this. Who knows?

He also ignores the fact Osama is wealthy millionaire with many connections in the middle east and a large support base. (Or should I say had?)

Which in all fairness was indeed helped by the costly military.

how does buying camelbacks with money the US doesn't tax become connected with Osama bin Ladens evil plan

In my opinion, its very wrong to describe any military strategist, terrorist leader or suchlike as "great".

unless they like did great things and stuff (though this raises suspicion of other great things like tetris and sunsets)

Anyone involved in the organisation and running of wars is organising and coordinating plans to kill thousands or even millions of people, an increasing proportion of which are innocent civilians.

1) you don't coordinate wars to kill people as that kind of defeats the point of military strategy in the first place

2) civilian casualties have done nothing but fall thanks to all our dandy smart bombs and such these days

Not to say that war can never be justified, where one side is committing genocide, war can be a sad necessity to remove the culprits from power and bring them to justice.

I always like this get out clause as if all the failings of isolationism comes down to genocide

tell me if I started stealing peoples property would you set out to send me an angry letter expressing your dislike or will you instead go for the more peaceful whispering in victims ears about how I'm a jerk?

SNIP

not just the CIA everyone was helping the taliban at the time

it'll be a nice unifying story of the man who conjured the Miracle of the Two Towers and brought down the great satan.

are you suggesting that in a years time Bin Laden is going to magically throw a curtain over ground zero and reveal that the twin towers are actually still standing and thus America is a doo doo for not believing in magic? :eek2:

are you suggesting that in a years time Bin Laden is going to magically throw a curtain over ground zero and reveal that the twin towers are actually still standing and thus America is a doo doo for not believing in magic? :eek2:
David Copperfield is Osama bin Laden...

David Copperfield is Osama bin Laden...

you will find that Tommy Cooper "died" in 1984 the same year a man named Bin Laden set up Maktab al-Khidamat and created a Training camp in Afghanistan (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Eq5Xn23h8)

The neat thing is that the Jews will still be blamed for everything.

You know what? I admit it. We used a mind control device to turn muslims into... Well you get the idea.:rolleyes:

you will find that Tommy Cooper "died" in 1984 the same year a man named Bin Laden set up Maktab al-Khidamat and created a Training camp in Afghanistan (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Eq5Xn23h8)

I have neighbor named Tommy Cooper... Crazy Nam' Vet type.

how does buying camelbacks with money the US doesn't tax become connected with Osama bin Ladens evil plan

Tinfoil hats of mass destruction.

Bin Laden still owes us all that goddamn money and equipment we gave him back in the 1980's.

Possibly true. Though it's not necessarily unfixable, though at this point the only way to save America is an austerity program which will probably end up collapsing every bit of the social safety net and much of the defense budget.

Possibly true. Though it's not necessarily unfixable, though at this point the only way to save America is an austerity program which will probably end up collapsing every bit of the social safety net and much of the defense budget.

Social Security is, for a lack of a better term, the most inefficient and useless retirement aid program in the developed world. The returns suck, you never actually own the amounts you've paid in to the program, and the best part is many of us today might not even see a significant portion of it, let alone the amounts we've paid in through taxes.

Actually, I wonder how much the program would improve if we shifted it from a pyramid scheme to a system where people actually own their share and can withdraw it, borrow against it and manage it as they want. You could choose to manage it yourself or go with the conventional treasury bonds, with the government playing no role in choosing investments or directly handling your money.

how does buying camelbacks with money the US doesn't tax become connected with Osama bin Ladens evil plan

So... we didn't spend 2 point something trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hmmm...

unless they like did great things and stuff (though this raises suspicion of other great things like tetris and sunsets)

I sort-of agree, Eisenhower, for instance, went on to be a pretty spectacular president. Going further back, in ancient times national leaders also doubled as pretty damn good generals.

1) you don't coordinate wars to kill people as that kind of defeats the point of military strategy in the first place

Only semi-true. While (modern) war may be a ways of achieving a policy goal, there are a huge vareity of ways to win a military campaign... and pretty much all of them involve killing a great deal of people.

2) civilian casualties have done nothing but fall thanks to all our dandy smart bombs and such these days

Except when those smart bombs are aimed at the wrong place due to bad intelligence. Also, there are war deaths that are unrelated to the given combatants actually killing each other. Famine, displacement, ethnic unrest from the breakdown of law & order, political upheavel, all are going to kill a goodly number of civilians.

I always like this get out clause as if all the failings of isolationism comes down to genocide

tell me if I started stealing peoples property would you set out to send me an angry letter expressing your dislike or will you instead go for the more peaceful whispering in victims ears about how I'm a jerk?

Your point is noted and agreed with.

not just the CIA everyone was helping the taliban at the time

Not 'everyone' was helping the Taliban, Mujahideen, and Al-Qaeda... just everyone who were not on the side of the Soviets. Which includes one of our opponents today (Iran) and a even larger number of our friends like Pakistan.

are you suggesting that in a years time Bin Laden is going to magically throw a curtain over ground zero and reveal that the twin towers are actually still standing and thus America is a doo doo for not believing in magic?

I think he referring to 9/11 there...

Tinfoil hats of mass destruction.

you' know I'm actually surprised that someone hasn't worn a tinfoil hat and talked for ages on a mobile yet...

Bin Laden still owes us all that goddamn money and equipment we gave him back in the 1980's.

"what do you call an honest Saudi businessman? Asif" - Omid Djalili

Possibly true. Though it's not necessarily unfixable, though at this point the only way to save America is an austerity program which will probably end up collapsing every bit of the social safety net and much of the defense budget.

meh the world makes more off you than the debt you rack up every year so keep consuming and I doubt anybody is gonna care

So... we didn't spend 2 point something trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hmmm...

no you spent 2 trillion of somebody else's money :)

I sort-of agree, Eisenhower, for instance, went on to be a pretty spectacular president. Going further back, in ancient times national leaders also doubled as pretty damn good generals.

I meant it more as great = doing something big like Alexander defeating the Persians

there are a huge vareity of ways to win a military campaign... and pretty much all of them involve killing a great deal of people.

no only a war of attrition does as its otherwise reckless to endanger your men when you could just take out the king/enemy moral/other

hell charging straight for the King was how Alexander defeated numerically superior Persian forces (well mostly)

Except when those smart bombs are aimed at the wrong place due to bad intelligence. Also, there are war deaths that are unrelated to the given combatants actually killing each other. Famine, displacement, ethnic unrest from the breakdown of law & order, political upheavel, all are going to kill a goodly number of civilians.

I did not deny collateral damage however war has become cleaner as technology has progressed there is no doubt of that just think of how much damage would be done if armies had to carpet bomb whole areas to hit targets

Not 'everyone' was helping the Taliban, Mujahideen, and Al-Qaeda... just everyone who were not on the side of the Soviets.

like the Chinese ;)

I think he referring to 9/11 there...

so was I?

Could things have turned out differently? Could the US somehow avoided being totally routed and demolished by the military genius known as Osama bin Laden? If, in response to 9/11 GWB immediately slashed military spending, gave in to bin Laden's totally reasonable demands, and closed up all overseas American military bases, withdrew from Germany, Korea, Okinawa, and Saudi Arabia, the USA would have had the opportunity to rebuild its economic strength following the NASDAQ recession.

Trilateral Commission, all that kowtowing to bin Laden would have done was made things worse. It was the kowtowing of Clinton to the Somalis that first made bin Laden realise that if you consistently attack the Americans, you will get what you want.

Could things have turned out differently? Yes. Had Bush Senior won the 1992 election (and he would have had Perot not run), then you would have had a President with backbone who would have remained in Somalia and not pulled out because a few locals decided to throw rocks at them. Without the withdrawal from Somalia, bin Laden would have been less likely to think of Americans as cowards.

Indeed, if one looks at the cowardly line, Americans have unfortunately become far more cowardly in the years since the Second World War, and the media has played a massive role in it - if you look at Vietnam for instance, it was the media that lost the war for the Americans. If you look at Iraq, it was the media that almost lost the war for the Americans as well. What America needs is to develop some backbone - then we would get rid of threats like bin Laden.

Osama bin Laden will go down in history as the greatest military strategist and soldier in history, on par with Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan.

With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.

How can one smelly bearded caveman defeat the two most powerful countries of all time??

Simply.

In the first case, he had access to 1.family resources, 2.Saudi Arabia black funds, 3.CIA black funds.

In the second case, he had access to 1.family resources, 2.Saudi Arabia black funds, 3.CIA black funds till September 2001.

Btw, Alexander was a spoiled brat with a lot of tactical luck but no real idea of theatre-of-war strategy. Caesar would have given him a sound beating anytime.

not just the CIA everyone was helping the taliban at the time


Sorry, just a pet peeve, but the Taliban didn't actually exist at the time. Bin Laden was part of the Mujahadeen. The Taliban came into its power a bit later.

As for the OP, just lol. How many times has the downfall of the U.S. (or any country, for that matter) been predicted? Everyone thought England would fall to the Nazis. Everyone thought that Israel would be destroyed in 1948 (the longest prediction of how long they would last was two months).

So no, I don't think the U.S. is done for quite yet.

USA isn't finished yet, but Jan 20 is still a few days away, so who knows. GWB might finish it off yet. I still wouldn't give bin Laden credit for it.

Osama bin Laden will go down in history as the greatest military strategist and soldier in history, on par with Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan.
I doubt it. Guerilla war is an old idea.

With relatively minimal resources he and his bearded fellows defeated the USSR, and now we are witnessing before our very eyes his second strategic masterpiece, the defeat of the USA.
He certainly helped things get as bad as they are in America, but he no more defeated them than the French defeated Hitler( :tongue: ).

How can one smelly bearded caveman defeat the two most powerful countries of all time??
One smelly, bearded, educated caveman from a rich Saudi family, trained, funded and supplied by the CIA among others(probably)
By drawing them into unwinnable wars, tricking their leaders into engaging in unsustainable and hyperinflationary military spending and dangerous civilian "economic stimuli", with the result that his enemies' homelands become Keynesian disaster zones with terminally stagnating economies.
What, so Bin Laden did the economic crisis? Bullshit.

Bin Laden's defeat of the US is particularly brilliant. The 9/11 attack was perfectly and brilliantly timed to coincide with the bursting of the NASDAQ bubble and recession.
Strategic forethought or good fortune? Were other attacks timed to coincide with economic downturns?
Faced with the twin crises of 9/11 and the dotcom bust, the US government attempted to raise civilian morale by engaging in dangerous bubble-blowing activities that resulted in the famous real estate bubble, whose recent bursting will cripple the American economy for decades to come.
And you know this was Bin Laden's plan how?
Even more brilliantly for Bin Laden, GWB's sucessor BHO will engage in precisely the same disastrous hyperinflationary economic policies that Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and GWB himself propounded in times of crisis, thus serving to drive the final nails into Old Glory's coffin.
I thought Old Glory was the flag?

Could things have turned out differently? Could the US somehow avoided being totally routed and demolished by the military genius known as Osama bin Laden?
Most things could have gone differently in most situations. Inevitabilities are rare.
If, in response to 9/11 GWB immediately slashed military spending, gave in to bin Laden's totally reasonable demands, and closed up all overseas American military bases, withdrew from Germany, Korea, Okinawa, and Saudi Arabia, the USA would have had the opportunity to rebuild its economic strength following the NASDAQ recession.
And faced threats from everyone else with some guns, some people willing to die and some demands. There's a good reason the FBI doesn't negotiate with kidnappers. For everyone 1 kidnapping that succeeds 100 more will be attempted(numbers pulled from my ass, obviously).

If GWB and Alan Greenspan had any backbone whatsoever they would've let the 2001 recession run its natural course instead of attempting to replace the dotcom bubble with an even larger and more reckless real estate bubble. Instead, the thoroughly stupid American electorate demanded immediate satisfaction at the expense of long term survivability, and cried out to their politicians to go on wild military adventures overseas, while also "fixing" the economy with short-sighted technocratic tinkering with the money supply.
Which has what to do with the "military genius known as" Bin Laden?

GWB squandered American treasure, blood, and lives, bringing the United States of America to its knees, and BHO has promised to continue Bush's policies to bury American lives and gold in Afghanistan, fan ever-larger economic bubbles and mirages with fake economic stimuluses, finally bringing this once-great country face-first into the mud.
Which has what to do with the "military genius known as" Bin Laden?
Yes, we're doomed. Might as well go ahead and divvy ourselves up to other countries.
I call Miami!
I used to play with the interesting theory that Osama Bin Laden would be the next Jesus in years to come. Little enough is really known about him for legend not to grow and, as doom-mongers keep telling us, when the Muslims become the dominant culture on the planet, it'll be a nice unifying story of the man who conjured the Miracle of the Two Towers and brought down the great satan.

Re-written as a wise and humble cave dweller in the desert, it'll all be the same yet somewhat different in 2, 000 years time.

The popular NSG topic will be 'Did Osama Bin Laden really exist?'

Can't wait.
I, for one, welcome our new prophet Barringtonia(huge post count be upon him)
Bin Laden still owes us all that goddamn money and equipment we gave him back in the 1980's.

Send in the debt collectors. They'll find him.

I'm afraid someone is about a half a bubble out of plumb here.

you will find that Tommy Cooper "died" in 1984 the same year a man named Bin Laden set up Maktab al-Khidamat and created a Training camp in Afghanistan (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Eq5Xn23h8)
*blows up Twin Towers*

"ahhhh... Jus like that!"






Too much?

Indeed, if one looks at the cowardly line, Americans have unfortunately become far more cowardly in the years since the Second World War, and the media has played a massive role in it - if you look at Vietnam for instance, it was the media that lost the war for the Americans. If you look at Iraq, it was the media that almost lost the war for the Americans as well. What America needs is to develop some backbone - then we would get rid of threats like bin Laden.

Are you serious??

Please say you're trolling.

no you spent 2 trillion of somebody else's money :)

Your going to have to go really in depth explanation there... because the US has racked up over 2 trillion dollars in debt on Iraq and Afghanistan alone.

no only a war of attrition does as its otherwise reckless to endanger your men when you could just take out the king/enemy moral/other

hell charging straight for the King was how Alexander defeated numerically superior Persian forces (well mostly)

I don't think you understand my point...

War is a means to achieve a policy. It is not a policy in itself. Usually, it is not the only means. However, if you engage in war, you will wind up killing at least one hundred people, at minimum.

For instance, that one example you gave me... of Alexander going at the Persian King, how many men did he and his army kill to get to the king and how many men did he and his army wind-up killing after getting to the king?

Because no matter how well you fight a war, your going to wind-up killing people. Those people may be innocent, they may not be. Those people may be soldiers, and they may not be. But nonetheless, you and your army will wind-up killing them. Nathan Bedford Forrest said it best: "War means fighting, and fighting means killing."

Are you serious??

Please say you're trolling.

I'm sorry, I am serious.

I'm sorry, I am serious.

Then clearly the best way for America to get some backbone is to follow the Chinese example. Not only do they not let their media hamper their military efforts, they also get the media to say what they want it to say.

Oh no - he gave him credit for the whole economic recession. Which in all fairness was indeed helped by the costly military.

Helped, But I believe the primary cause was the Changing of the Bankruptcy laws...

Before the change if you accumulated too much debt, you could file bankruptcy, and go broke, but youd keep your house and car, etc...

Now, If you file, they take everything, and your left with no house or car, etc...

Causing many people who should have filed, not to, and therefore to be foreclosed on, which caused a Credit Crunch, which caused loans not to be given, banks to fail, governments to buy them out...

And, Bob's Your Uncle...

I seriously doubt Bin Laden had a large hand in said situation...

Then clearly the best way for America to get some backbone is to follow the Chinese example. Not only do they not let their media hamper their military efforts, they also get the media to say what they want it to say.

No, no. They are already following the Chinese example, especially when it comes to scapegoating so the incompetent and the criminal but influential ones who got into the whole mess get away.

They just haven't gotten around to suppressing dissent (although they aren't above declawing it) just yet because they like to pretend that they're a democracy.

They just haven't gotten around to suppressing dissent (although they aren't above declawing it) just yet because they like to pretend that they're a democracy.I wonder when we'll stop calling ourselves a democracy.

Are you serious??

Please say you're trolling.

There is some argument to this, there's certainly a body of thought that says America is schizophrenic in its foreign policy.

Anyone who thought the invasion of Iraq would be short term was either lying or deluded. Even if one looks at previous examples, it's clear that the US had little to no intention of short term occupation and, beyond that, it's just ridiculous to think that it could be.

America is still in Germany and Japan, it's still in South Korea, these were 50 years ago. Nevermind the excuses, the US likes to have military bases in other countries.

Yet the American public is seriously averse to war, loves its big army, it's shiny weapons but hates actually being anywhere or doing anything and public and media sentiment very quickly turn against any endeavour where an American soldier is killed.

Let's be honest, 5, 000 deaths over 5 years isn't huge.

America is, to all intensive purposes, an empire, yet it deludes itself into thinking it isn't.

The British Empire liked to pretend it exported civilization, the American Empire pretends to export Freedom and Democracy, both are complete shams when one looks at it but it seems so many people, including the media, buy into it.

The government should really stop lying to both itself and the public, either stay out of foreign affairs, which would be disastrous, or be honest and committed to maintaining peace for the sake of trade, which is what empires do.

This weaselly middle ground doesn't seem to help anyone aside from the continuation of the powers that be, Afghanistan is a case in point, a country invaded so it 'can govern itself', which has turned into a gigantic Narco-state from the lowliest to the highest official.

This weaselly middle ground doesn't seem to help anyone aside from the continuation of the powers that be, Afghanistan is a case in point, a country invaded so it 'can govern itself', which has turned into a gigantic Narco-state from the lowliest to the highest official.
Afghanistan wasn't invaded so it could govern itself. That was said later, to make Iraq sound like just a continuation of the War on Terror of which Afghanistan was a part. Initially, though, the reason was the Taliban wouldn't turn over bin Laden. Maybe still not a great reason, but pretty straightforward.

There is some argument to this, there's certainly a body of thought that says America is schizophrenic in its foreign policy.

Anyone who thought the invasion of Iraq would be short term was either lying or deluded. Even if one looks at previous examples, it's clear that the US had little to no intention of short term occupation and, beyond that, it's just ridiculous to think that it could be.

America is still in Germany and Japan, it's still in South Korea, these were 50 years ago. Nevermind the excuses, the US likes to have military bases in other countries.

Yet the American public is seriously averse to war, loves its big army, it's shiny weapons but hates actually being anywhere or doing anything and public and media sentiment very quickly turn against any endeavour where an American soldier is killed.

Let's be honest, 5, 000 deaths over 5 years isn't huge.

America is, to all intensive purposes, an empire, yet it deludes itself into thinking it isn't.

The British Empire liked to pretend it exported civilization, the American Empire pretends to export Freedom and Democracy, both are complete shams when one looks at it but it seems so many people, including the media, buy into it.

The government should really stop lying to both itself and the public, either stay out of foreign affairs, which would be disastrous, or be honest and committed to maintaining peace for the sake of trade, which is what empires do.

This weaselly middle ground doesn't seem to help anyone aside from the continuation of the powers that be, Afghanistan is a case in point, a country invaded so it 'can govern itself', which has turned into a gigantic Narco-state from the lowliest to the highest official.

Well said...

If only the majority of the population didnt crave Delusion...:(

Even more brilliantly for Bin Laden, GWB's sucessor BHO will engage in precisely the same disastrous hyperinflationary economic policies that Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and GWB himself propounded in times of crisis, thus serving to drive the final nails into Old Glory's coffin.
I thought Old Glory was the flag?


Yes, the Stars and Stripes would seem to be a metaphor for the good ol' US of A.

My own thoughts would be that the main engineers of the Soviet Union's demise was the Soviet system itself.

In terms of the US, it attracts the best minds in the world to its higher education system and also funds that system very well, due to that alone, and regardless of whether it becomes a two-tier culture, America as a power that will remain in place for quite some time.

Osama Bin Laden is certainly an interesting actor on the world stage and I somewhat agree that the reaction to 9/11 and the tech bubble go a long way to explaining the problems of 2008.

Barringtonia, I believe you are correct. Bin Laden is no more than a bit player on the stage of history. It's completely doubtful he had the understanding of economics and finance to predict America's demise. OP should be regarded as an indictment of America's epically incompetent political leadership, rather than a sincere story of Bin Laden's "greatness". If the Soviet system itself did in the USSR then the American system has done in the USA. And just like the Soviets who churned out so many PhDs who ended up driving taxis, I don't believe the American higher education system will do anything to stop our decline, and perhaps it will even hasten the decline and fall.

If the Soviet system itself did in the USSR then the American system has done in the USA. And just like the Soviets who churned out so many PhDs who ended up driving taxis, I don't believe the American higher education system will do anything to stop our decline, and perhaps it will even hasten the decline and fall.All hail the glory of the Emperor and the New American Empire!

All hail the glory of the Emperor and the New American Empire!

I think it's too late for that, depending on how Russia and China fare this year.

For better or worse, we live in a multilateral, globally connected world.

I think it's too late for that, depending on how Russia and China fare this year.

For better or worse, we live in a multilateral, globally connected world.No reference points for you. :(

I think it's too late for that, depending on how Russia and China fare this year.

For better or worse, we live in a multilateral, globally connected world.

NO! NUH UH! We, America, are the Empire. THE Empire.

And we shall have no come uppance. NOOOOOO COME UPPANCE! (cue Homer Simpson in 18th Century Military regalia, shaking his meaty fist at the world).

No reference points for you. :(

Aww, I'll look it up, I've been sadly lacking in films, TV and music, I should improve :)

EDIT: Oh man, is it Star Wars, if so I'll go shoot myself,

NO! NUH UH! We, America, are the Empire. THE Empire.

And we shall have no come uppance. NOOOOOO COME UPPANCE! (cue Homer Simpson in 18th Century Military regalia, shaking his meaty fist at the world).

We do live in the equivalent of a Homer-built world, like his car, accommodating everything, useful for nothing.

We do live in the equivalent of a Homer-built world, like his car, accommodating everything, useful for nothing.

What a bad analogy. Our auto industry is doing great. Investing in enormous luxury SUV's has lead us to a pot of gold.

Its true, I read it in a Chick Pamphlet.

What a bad analogy. Our auto industry is doing great. Investing in enormous luxury SUV's has lead us to a pot of gold.

Its true, I read it in a Chick Pamphlet.

Sounds like you're reading it in a Chick Fil-A pamphlet, check your subscription.

Sounds like you're reading it in a Chick Fil-A pamphlet, check your subscription.

Chic-Fil-A is owned and managed by committed Christians.

Its true, I read it in a Chic-Fil-A form letter.

Chic-Fil-A is owned and managed by committed Christians.

Its true, I read it in a Chic-Fil-A form letter.

Jesus said 'Turn the other cheek', which although admittedly does sound like a Mexican saying 'turn the other chick' as though an order to cook the other side of a chicken, as committed Christians, I just think Chic-Fil-A got the message wrong.

Hardly a first.

Aww, I'll look it up, I've been sadly lacking in films, TV and music, I should improve :)

EDIT: Oh man, is it Star Wars, if so I'll go shoot myself,You don't have to be An Hero for missing a reference. :p

Chic-Fil-A is owned and managed by committed Christians.Apparently they revoke your franchise if you don't remain closed on Sundays. :D

lol this is a joke right?

lol this is a joke right?

This Whole thread? I hope that this is a troll thread.