NationStates Jolt Archive


Hate Evolution

Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 00:33
With the vitriol in the thread on Israel/Palestine right now, and just generally associated with observation of human behavior, I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on how the concept of "hate" evolved and developed among humans.

Please feel free to apply various definitions, but I'm mostly looking for discourse on how the mental state of hate, in both the instantaneous and abiding case, may have origins as some kind of surivival or coping mechanism.

Does the fight/flight instinct result in a "seething", a physical nervous response that, over time, extrapolates into an ingrained and self-perpetuating assessment of something as being "hated"? Can that more abstract cognitive incarnation of the concept then in turn be delivered to children, peers, governments, which then come full circle and result in events that return to the jagged, emotion state?

Is it a feedback loop, a spiraling remnant of a time when "hate" had some more reasonable purpose, but is now a maladaptive heuristic?

Examples from other primates or the animal kingdom at large are welcome, but I'm also very interested in the "scalability" of hate, its different magnitudes, levels of complexity, etc.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 00:44
I kind of agree with your concept; I think its an evolutionary thing caused by the fight or flight response.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 00:46
Hate is a programed instinctual reaction to certain things.
Belschaft
05-01-2009, 00:47
This thread is no where nere as good as I thought it would be. I was getting ready to go on a rant about Chri-Nazi's and fundies....

:(
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 00:48
Hate is a programed instinctual reaction to certain things.

"Program" implies a deliberate, organized algorithm.

What kinds of things would evoke the response, and what would give an organism with this behaviour an advantage over its competitors or predators?

Anger can be associated with various biochemical responses, perhaps hate is merely the eventual neuroplastic "groove" that is worn into the mind by repetitive anger. But by what process or dynamic does it then become more complex, organized, and most importantly, more lasting than mere anger?
Fartsniffage
05-01-2009, 00:48
I think hate is an emotional response to tight resources.

Not enough food? Hate the group of primates living nextdoor, kill them all and take their food.

Want to fuck the hot monkey? Kill the alpha male and take over.

Hate makes killing easier and would have been very useful.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 00:48
This thread is no where nere as good as I thought it would be. I was getting ready to go on a rant about Chri-Nazi's and fundies....

:(

Do it anyway?
Call to power
05-01-2009, 00:50
its just a tool, when used in the correct hands you can get shit done I don't know how else to explain it...erm think of it like the meme version of pain I guess

if you look at it in a sexist sense:

I hate men = I hate how men are dicks = dicks hurt women which is bad from evolutionary standpoint and such
Myrmidonisia
05-01-2009, 00:50
It occurs to me that the one thing that is needed to solve the problems in the Middle East is the ability to forgive. Until the "eye for an eye" mentality is defeated, there can be no peace.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 00:50
This thread is no where nere as good as I thought it would be. I was getting ready to go on a rant about Chri-Nazi's and fundies....

:(

Very well, then.

Darwin was a known Satanist, and was often seen reading such non-Christian Literature as "The Koran" and The Elements". Its thus no surprise that he began laying the foundation of a theory of biology that encourages rape and eating your children.

Its true, I read it in a Chick pamphlet.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 00:52
I think hate is an emotional response to tight resources.

Not enough food? Hate the group of primates living nextdoor, kill them all and take their food.

Want to fuck the hot monkey? Kill the alpha male and take over.

Hate makes killing easier and would have been very useful.

That actually sounds reasonable (the premise, not the action itself, but your model of it).

Do animals with comparatively high cognitive functions find it difficult to kill dispassionately? Barring aberrations of various kinds, could it be speculated that the hate allows for a degree of viciousness that is more enduring and elaborate than what would be facilitated by mere anger?
Trostia
05-01-2009, 00:53
To hate is "to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward." It's not a programmed instinctual reaction due to its by-definition extreme nature. Animals might like or dislike, have aversion or hostility, but the extremeness of human hatred results from our memory, our ability to think and dwell on certain ideas, to amplify them "passionately."

Psychologically it's an unhealthy state of mind. To hate is ultimately to harm yourself, and is probably the result of trauma, irrational thinking or fallacious associations.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 00:54
its just a tool, when used in the correct hands you can get shit done I don't know how else to explain it...erm think of it like the meme version of pain I guess

if you look at it in a sexist sense:

I hate men = I hate how men are dicks = dicks hurt women which is bad from evolutionary standpoint and such

But what are "the correct hands"? Does this allude to some sort of guidance or design for hate to fulfill its evolutionary function?

If that's the case, is it linked to some sort of hiearchical system, perhaps developing as a means to get the pack as a whole to be more willing to engage in long-standing lethal competition when compelled to by higher members of the structure?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 00:56
Like I said, hate is something that you learn. An emotional response.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:00
To hate is "to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward." It's not a programmed instinctual reaction due to its by-definition extreme nature.

An instinctual reaction can't be extreme? I don't know if I necessarily agree. I think a lot of organisms engage in such reactions where the results are sufficient violent to be described as "extreme" or "intense" compared to their usual behaviour. Even normative ranges of behavior can have points at the ends that are very different from the daily behaviour but are still part of an evolved repertoire of responses.


Animals might like or dislike, have aversion or hostility, but the extremeness of human hatred results from our memory, our ability to think and dwell on certain ideas, to amplify them "passionately."

Psychologically it's an unhealthy state of mind. To hate is ultimately to harm yourself, and is probably the result of trauma, irrational thinking or fallacious associations.

So in this model, an unfortunate collision between our capacity to retain information and animalistic propensity for violent competition has created a sort of distorted output, the degree of which can be exacerbated by particularly damaging events?

Hrmm...would that amplification you mentioned develop as an adaptive (or rather maladaptive) process, or is the amplification just previously occuring cognitive process, something the mind might do with any idea?
Ifreann
05-01-2009, 01:00
Hate, conveniently, gives us a drive above and beyond the need for food and mates to eliminate the competition. If one tribe of early humans hates a nearby tribe and kills them all, they get their hunting grounds and supplies and women. Hate fuels conflict, and conflict eliminates the weak and leaves the strong. At least, that's all the reason I can think of for hate, from an evolutionary standpoint. It could just be an unfortunate by-product of our ability to love.
Call to power
05-01-2009, 01:07
It occurs to me that the one thing that is needed to solve the problems in the Middle East is the ability to forgive. Until the "eye for an eye" mentality is defeated, there can be no peace.

I think there is more to the peace process than that

But what are "the correct hands"? Does this allude to some sort of guidance or design for hate to fulfill its evolutionary function?

hate is contagious and if for instance someone has a bad experience with something causing them to hate then others will also catch it and avoid whatever caused the initial bad experience

like hating snakes for example
Trostia
05-01-2009, 01:08
An instinctual reaction can't be extreme? I don't know if I necessarily agree. I think a lot of organisms engage in such reactions where the results are sufficient violent to be described as "extreme" or "intense" compared to their usual behaviour. Even normative ranges of behavior can have points at the ends that are very different from the daily behaviour but are still part of an evolved repertoire of responses.

Well, according to the god-wiki on hatred, "Because hatred is believed to be long-lasting, many psychologists consider it to be more of an attitude or disposition than a (temporary) emotional state."

That is essentially my position.

So in this model, an unfortunate collision between our capacity to retain information and animalistic propensity for violent competition has created a sort of distorted output, the degree of which can be exacerbated by particularly damaging events?

You could say that.

Hrmm...would that amplification you mentioned develop as an adaptive (or rather maladaptive) process, or is the amplification just previously occuring cognitive process, something the mind might do with any idea?

The mind can and does do the same with other things. I daresay it provides the basis of most psychology. Obsessive, compulsive or ritualistic behaviors, depression and disorders, even the concept of romantic love.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:08
An interesting question - and not an easy one to answer. I really dont think hatred can be defined in logical terms but perhaps your right that it may start out that way ... as a logical choice.

The fight or flight responce is somthing very basic and logical. It is usually accompanied by emotion fear in the case of flight and anger, perhaps hatred in the case of fight... Hatred may play a role in fight or flight in that it may effect the decsion making process biasing parties towards more aggresive action. Therefore (working backwards) the choice to hate an agent may come as a response to repetitave stimulus which elicits a nervous response from that agent.

Once this chaoce is made it (presumably) continues to affect the decision making process which you talk about. Hence - the feedback loop which you describe.

But everything I am talking about is merely the effects of 'hate' - I dont think this is useful in defining what it *is* although I dont think it's a bad place to start.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:08
Hate, conveniently, gives us a drive above and beyond the need for food and mates to eliminate the competition. If one tribe of early humans hates a nearby tribe and kills them all, they get their hunting grounds and supplies and women. Hate fuels conflict, and conflict eliminates the weak and leaves the strong.

So, it could be associated with a willingness to engage and overcome competitors? Does hate make this easier? Could it not be just as easily facilitated by hunger?

Then again, maybe the hate serves as a reservoir for the anger, letting you store up the adrenaline-summoning emotionial fuel that will give your arm that extra swing in the fight?

[QUOTE=Ifreann
At least, that's all the reason I can think of for hate, from an evolutionary standpoint. It could just be an unfortunate by-product of our ability to love.[/QUOTE]

So, you've been married, then.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:10
I think there is more to the peace process than that

hate is contagious and if for instance someone has a bad experience with something causing them to hate then others will also catch it and avoid whatever caused the initial bad experience

like hating snakes for example

Sounds reasonable, and would be consistent with threat-knowledge distribution among social species.

I'm scared of snakes.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 01:10
I think "hate" is a nebulous concept. It is very difficult to identify a source of hate or a purpose for hate, because people often mean different things when they use the word "hate."

"Extreme and passionate dislike" is a decent enough descriptive definition, but is it really valid to put an extreme and passionate dislike for a certain kind of music in the same category of response behavior as an extreme and passionate dislike for a person or group of people? Even though both feelings might appropriately be called "hate," are they qualitatively the same? I don't think so.

Also, a lot of people assume that an extreme and passionate dislike for something is going to be connected to an anger response to that thing, and thus categorize "hate" as an unhealthy state of mind, preumably on the grounds that it causes unhealthy levels of stress and hostility in the one who feels such hate.

But I don't think it's necessarily so that hate and anger (plus stress and hostility) go together. I truly hate the sound of most metal music, but I don't feel anger when I hear it. I don't feel anger when I think about it. Likewise, and on a completely different level, I truly hate racism, but I only experience anger when I witness the reality of racism, and that anger is not as strong a feeling as the hate for the idea of racism that I feel all the time.

So I'm a little doubtful that hate is connected to survival mechanisms that are associated with adrenalin responses -- the fight or flight thing. Anger might go with that, but if you can have hate without anger, then I don't see how hate gets into that mix. I'm more inclined to think that hate is a side-effect of either cumulative social conditioning (as in hating an idea or a group) or extreme physiological response (as in hating a taste or sound or smell).

But I think this requires more thought to really nail it down.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:12
Very well, then.

Darwin was a known Satanist, and was often seen reading such non-Christian Literature as "The Koran" and The Elements". Its thus no surprise that he began laying the foundation of a theory of biology that encourages rape and eating your children.

Its true, I read it in a Chick pamphlet.

Hey let's try not to drag this thread though the same mud which every other gets dragged through. You asked posited an interesting question... why ruin it.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:12
Even Jewish that I am, I don't think that anyone should be allowed to have the holy land. It should be leveled with a massive hydrogen bomb.

That would end the fight and the hate.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:13
Well, according to the god-wiki on hatred, "Because hatred is believed to be long-lasting, many psychologists consider it to be more of an attitude or disposition than a (temporary) emotional state."

I'll buy that. But can the attitude/disposition itself have served some kind of adaptive purpose, or is it purely...I dunno the term, evo-pathic?


The mind can and does do the same with other things. I daresay it provides the basis of most psychology. Obsessive, compulsive or ritualistic behaviors, depression and disorders, even the concept of romantic love.

Hmm...does the amplification function of the mind constitute a viable trait having evolved itself? I can see where hatred could be the byproduct when the response is applied to negative things (well, arbitrarily negative), does the capacity to magnify or exaggerate more desirable ideas provide some advantage to a species?
Dumb Ideologies
05-01-2009, 01:14
I think it comes down to the old cliche that people are 'programmed' to seek to possess what they believe will lead to their own survival and happiness.

If someone steals something of great value from you, or kills or injures a close friend or family member, you lose a possession or relationship that made your life better. You then become very determined to stop them making you unhappy again, and to punish them for causing harm to you and your loved ones.

In evolutionary terms, that would seem to make sense, as cavepersons that just let themselves be pushed around and bullied by other groups wouldn't survive long in an environment of scarce resources.

For the irrational hatred of minorities, its a bit different, but from ultimately the same origin of human nature. Collective identities are partially formed by reference to an 'other' i.e. what we, as a group, are not. Other groups are then marked as 'outsiders' and 'not like us'. I don't think its a long step from here to believing that the 'other', having been defined as outsiders and as different, is a threat to your own group. What if 'they' with their different values came over here and forced their values on the collective 'us'? Or even, what if they lived among us, not conforming to our norms? That can be construed as threatening and diluting our own collective identity. Humans are social creatures. They become unhappy if their sense of belonging to an 'in group' is somehow threatened by outsiders. They feel threatened, so they develop a strong dislike for groups with apparently different values. Or at least thats how I see it.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 01:15
Sounds reasonable, and would be consistent with threat-knowledge distribution among social species.

I'm scared of snakes.
I'm not, though I know lots of people who are, and I come from a culture that has a traditionally negative view of them. Yet I like them. Go figure.
Lunatic Goofballs
05-01-2009, 01:16
Even Jewish that I am, I don't think that anyone should be allowed to have the holy land. It should be leveled with a massive hydrogen bomb.

That would end the fight and the hate.

It stopped being holy a long time ago.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:18
It stopped being holy a long time ago.

Sadly enough, I agree...
Fartsniffage
05-01-2009, 01:18
It stopped being holy a long time ago.

Don't be silly. There are lots of holes......machine gun holes. shell holes, etc.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:18
I think "hate" is a nebulous concept. It is very difficult to identify a source of hate or a purpose for hate, because people often mean different things when they use the word "hate."

"Extreme and passionate dislike" is a decent enough descriptive definition, but is it really valid to put an extreme and passionate dislike for a certain kind of music in the same category of response behavior as an extreme and passionate dislike for a person or group of people? Even though both feelings might appropriately be called "hate," are they qualitatively the same? I don't think so.

Also, a lot of people assume that an extreme and passionate dislike for something is going to be connected to an anger response to that thing, and thus categorize "hate" as an unhealthy state of mind, preumably on the grounds that it causes unhealthy levels of stress and hostility in the one who feels such hate.

But I don't think it's necessarily so that hate and anger (plus stress and hostility) go together. I truly hate the sound of most metal music, but I don't feel anger when I hear it. I don't feel anger when I think about it. Likewise, and on a completely different level, I truly hate racism, but I only experience anger when I witness the reality of racism, and that anger is not as strong a feeling as the hate for the idea of racism that I feel all the time.

So I'm a little doubtful that hate is connected to survival mechanisms that are associated with adrenalin responses -- the fight or flight thing. Anger might go with that, but if you can have hate without anger, then I don't see how hate gets into that mix. I'm more inclined to think that hate is a side-effect of either cumulative social conditioning (as in hating an idea or a group) or extreme physiological response (as in hating a taste or sound or smell).

But I think this requires more thought to really nail it down.

I think it is, or at least was an instinctual thing. However, like with many of our throwback instincts; the way much of humanity lives today makes it unecesary but our biology forces us to continue to apply hate to things, often irrationally.

Of course, this comes from a person who believes inteligence is an instinct.
Call to power
05-01-2009, 01:18
I'm scared of snakes.

its been noted that such prejudices due to their peer-peer transmission method often involve particular social groups...

are you by any chance an archaeologist? :wink:

Even Jewish that I am, I don't think that anyone should be allowed to have the holy land. It should be leveled with a massive hydrogen bomb.

wasn't that what the crusades where about

edit:
the way much of humanity lives today makes it unecesary but our biology forces us to continue to apply hate to things, often irrationally.

I think the current hate directed at things like smoking might be a counter example (hate as a weapon and all that shibang)
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 01:19
I think it comes down to the old cliche that people are 'programmed' to seek to possess what they believe will lead to their own survival and happiness.

If someone steals something of great value from you, or kills or injures a close friend or family member, you lose a possession or relationship that made your life better. You then become very determined to stop them making you unhappy again, and to punish them for causing harm to you and your loved ones.

In evolutionary terms, that would seem to make sense, as cavepersons that just let themselves be pushed around and bullied by other groups wouldn't survive long in an environment of scarce resources.

For the irrational hatred of minorities, its a bit different, but from ultimately the same origin of human nature. Collective identities are partially formed by reference to an 'other' i.e. what we, as a group, are not. Other groups are then marked as 'outsiders' and 'not like us'. I don't think its a long step from here to believing that the 'other', having been defined as outsiders and as different, is a threat to your own group. What if 'they' with their different values came over here and forced their values on the collective 'us'? Or even, what if they lived among us, not conforming to our norms? That can be construed as threatening and diluting our own collective identity. Humans are social creatures. They become unhappy if their sense of belonging to an 'in group' is somehow threatened by outsiders. They feel threatened, so they develop a strong dislike for groups with apparently different values. Or at least thats how I see it.
So then hate is a response to loss or threat? That makes sense to me, if hate is merely an amplified form of anger -- which I'm not entirely sure it is.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:19
I think "hate" is a nebulous concept. It is very difficult to identify a source of hate or a purpose for hate, because people often mean different things when they use the word "hate."

"Extreme and passionate dislike" is a decent enough descriptive definition, but is it really valid to put an extreme and passionate dislike for a certain kind of music in the same category of response behavior as an extreme and passionate dislike for a person or group of people? Even though both feelings might appropriately be called "hate," are they qualitatively the same? I don't think so.

Also, a lot of people assume that an extreme and passionate dislike for something is going to be connected to an anger response to that thing, and thus categorize "hate" as an unhealthy state of mind, preumably on the grounds that it causes unhealthy levels of stress and hostility in the one who feels such hate.

But I don't think it's necessarily so that hate and anger (plus stress and hostility) go together. I truly hate the sound of most metal music, but I don't feel anger when I hear it. I don't feel anger when I think about it. Likewise, and on a completely different level, I truly hate racism, but I only experience anger when I witness the reality of racism, and that anger is not as strong a feeling as the hate for the idea of racism that I feel all the time.

So I'm a little doubtful that hate is connected to survival mechanisms that are associated with adrenalin responses -- the fight or flight thing. Anger might go with that, but if you can have hate without anger, then I don't see how hate gets into that mix. I'm more inclined to think that hate is a side-effect of either cumulative social conditioning (as in hating an idea or a group) or extreme physiological response (as in hating a taste or sound or smell).

But I think this requires more thought to really nail it down.

Does something have to have some minimum threshhold of intensity to qualify as hate? For instance, is your feeling toward heavy metal more intense than somebody who simply doesn't prefer it, and will casually avoid it given the choice?

Perhaps we should differentiate between kinds of hate, for clarity.

One kind might be the kind used in the context of "hate speech", "hate group", "I hate Serbs, they killed my __________"...

Okay, its a horrible reference, but it describes a kind of hate. Anybody see the film "Red Dawn"? The kid is sitting there cutting notches into the butt of his rifle for each guy he killed. The old pilot walks by and says "All that hate is going to burn you up" and the kid says "It keeps me warm".

That kind of hate, if it actually occurs among real people.
Sir Kenneth Burton
05-01-2009, 01:21
"hate can also be learned from the surroundings you matured in. for example: a young boy is raised in a house hold where the parents are racist against one group of people. the boy will most likely hate that group of people and act racist twoards them, not bcause he has any reason other than thats the way he was raised. the same also works with hate.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:22
So then hate is a response to loss or threat? That makes sense to me, if hate is merely an amplified form of anger -- which I'm not entirely sure it is.

Well, lets include a few models of hate unrelated to anger.

Could it just be a particularly pointed and resilient distaste? Maybe it started from the same algorithms that allowed for the choosing of more nutritious and less toxic food sources, and began to be applied to all choices?

Maybe "hate" of the non-angry kind could be one end of a spectrum of choice governing traits?

Something like "I hate the purple berries", not because they make you angry, but your brain has other reasons?
Trostia
05-01-2009, 01:23
I'll buy that. But can the attitude/disposition itself have served some kind of adaptive purpose, or is it purely...I dunno the term, evo-pathic?


I think we're crossing the line, if there is a line, between things that can be explained biologically and things that can't, or at least not very accurately. There's no genetic-level coding for "hates black people," I mean, so the object(s) of our hatred are chosen for other reasons - born of our free will and cognition and all that. Personal preferences.

Hmm...does the amplification function of the mind constitute a viable trait having evolved itself? I can see where hatred could be the byproduct when the response is applied to negative things (well, arbitrarily negative), does the capacity to magnify or exaggerate more desirable ideas provide some advantage to a species?

Probably. It seems like a reinforcement and learning process, so the specific disposition doesn't matter, and there are obviously many positive attitudes people can reinforce and learn.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:23
"hate can also be learned from the surroundings you matured in. for example: a young boy is raised in a house hold where the parents are racist against one group of people. the boy will most likely hate that group of people and act racist twoards them, not bcause he has any reason other than thats the way he was raised. the same also works with hate.

So, kind of a twisted transmission of threat-knowledge, one generation iterates the trait to the next, even if the next generation has no first hand data by which it would be inclined to regard the hate-subject as negative?
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:24
So, it could be associated with a willingness to engage and overcome competitors? Does hate make this easier? Could it not be just as easily facilitated by hunger?


I think in most circumstances hate is a response to repetitive stimulus. I don't think most people (or animals) *hate* their competitors for food, water, etc. They may choose to however if they are faced with repetitive nervous stimulus from those competitors however.

For example if repetitive competition between a monkey (A) and another (B) happens over and over ... then monkey A loses that competition ...perhaps monkey A will *decide* to hate monkey B. The next time they interact monkey A will may *decide* to take a more aggressive posture than he normally would.

My point is that it was not hatred that provoked monkey B to antagonize monkey A it was competition but eventually hate may play an additional role. (What that role is I don't really know!)
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:25
I resign myself from this hateful topic...
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:25
I think the current hate directed at things like smoking might be a counter example (hate as a weapon and all that shibang)

Well what about things like people who have violent reactions to things like Rap Music, or particular ways of dressing? Those are certainly irrational. Smoking could be seen as a rational one... people smking around me causes me extreme discomfort; I am not making this up; just the presence of cigarette smoke makes me feel physically ill, and it constricts my throat and burns my eyes; I hate the act of smoking (but not smokers); and I beleive I have a very rational reason.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:27
I think we're crossing the line, if there is a line, between things that can be explained biologically and things that can't, or at least not very accurately. There's no genetic-level coding for "hates black people," I mean, so the object(s) of our hatred are chosen for other reasons - born of our free will and cognition and all that. Personal preferences.


Certainly I don't expect to find a series of nitrogenous formations that amount to "hates black people", but the proclivity to hate itself may have some neurological hardwiring to it.

For example, suppose there is an evolutionarily ingrained desire for fatty foods or something (I have no idea if there is, this is just to illustrate an idea). People go out and get fatty foods, some might like McDonalds more than KFC, their choice/cognition/will whatever is still expressed, but the urge, the desire, is possibly biological.

Hate seems enduring in the species. I'm wondering if, at some point, it had a meaningful adaptive function, or if its just one of those crappy malignancies of human nature that resulted from other factors, or something else entirely.
Exilia and Colonies
05-01-2009, 01:28
I call Poe on everything Baldwin has ever said
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:29
I think in most circumstances hate is a response to repetitive stimulus. I don't think most people (or animals) *hate* their competitors for food, water, etc. They may choose to however if they are faced with repetitive nervous stimulus from those competitors however.

For example if repetitive competition between a monkey (A) and another (B) happens over and over ... then monkey A loses that competition ...perhaps monkey A will *decide* to hate monkey B. The next time they interact monkey A will may *decide* to take a more aggressive posture than he normally would.

My point is that it was not hatred that provoked monkey B to antagonize monkey A it was competition but eventually hate may play an additional role. (What that role is I don't really know!)

That doesn't sound too bad...it leads to where there might be some kind of advantage.

and everybody knows Monkey B is a total asshole...
Dumb Ideologies
05-01-2009, 01:30
So then hate is a response to loss or threat? That makes sense to me, if hate is merely an amplified form of anger -- which I'm not entirely sure it is.

Granted, its probably nowhere near that simple. From personal experience, I've only hated people who've done wrong to me or people I'm fond of, or have threatened to do so. Which makes me angry at how I/my friend has been treated. I can't claim to know definitively how it works for other people.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:31
I call Poe on everything Baldwin has ever said

That is a hateful blanket statement, tantamount to religious profiling, and profililng should only be applied to Muslims.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 01:32
Does something have to have some minimum threshhold of intensity to qualify as hate? For instance, is your feeling toward heavy metal more intense than somebody who simply doesn't prefer it, and will casually avoid it given the choice?

Perhaps we should differentiate between kinds of hate, for clarity.

One kind might be the kind used in the context of "hate speech", "hate group", "I hate Serbs, they killed my __________"...

Okay, its a horrible reference, but it describes a kind of hate. Anybody see the film "Red Dawn"? The kid is sitting there cutting notches into the butt of his rifle for each guy he killed. The old pilot walks by and says "All that hate is going to burn you up" and the kid says "It keeps me warm".

That kind of hate, if it actually occurs among real people.
I think a lot of people use the word "hate" too loosely.

For me, I dislike certain kinds of music so intensely that the sound of them creates a kind of physical discomfort for me. I can't think, or eat, or relax if I hear it. I just want to be away from it. I will lunge to change that radio station. I will immediately veto any group vote to listen to it, dig in my heels in total unreasonability, etc. -- even though there are other kinds of music that I don't like but can stand to be around for a while. Because of that intensity of reaction -- which I can only assume has some organic source and is a response to some quality of the sound -- I classify my feeling about that music as "hate" while other feelings are merely "dislike."

My hatred for an idea like racism or neoconservatism is an entirely different kind of thing, but it also falls on a scale of intensity on which hatred is a more extreme and intense feeling than dislike or opposition. That hatred, which is characterized by unyielding opposition without any consideration of compromise and by declaring myself the "enemy" of those who espouse such ideas, is based on a rather cold analysis of the given ideas and a judgment that those ideas are so incompatible with my ideas of right and wrong and of fairness that, if they were to be implemented in my society, my life would be harmed by them.

So I guess that goes back to Dumb Ideologies idea of a hate as an emotional response to a sense of threat. I also think that certain kinds of physical stimuli can evoke a very similar emotional response, albeit usually of shorter duration and more limited application (the turning off of a radio, as opposed to prolonged political fighting). And I do think there is an intensity factor in defining what is "hate" and what is not.
Call to power
05-01-2009, 01:33
SNIP

what I'm getting at is hate can be manipulated to achieve things like for instance if I wanted to stop people eating chocolate (because I work for a fruit company) I would use things like clever ads that show chocolate setting fire to your children or whatever, just like how some will depicts Gypsies as bloodsucking parasites and others will make awful ads showing babies breathing in smoke
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:34
Hate seems enduring in the species. I'm wondering if, at some point, it had a meaningful adaptive function, or if its just one of those crappy malignancies of human nature that resulted from other factors, or something else entirely.

I don't want to sound like a champion *for* hate but I think It still does have a meaningful adaptive function, despite the fact that we humans seem to go overboard with it 90% of the time. Consider war for example - it is very logical to *hate* you enemy it allows you to be a very bad person to those people and do very bad things to them - and still keep your morality intact for every other (non-enemy) person.
Exilia and Colonies
05-01-2009, 01:35
That is a hateful blanket statement, tantamount to religious profiling, and profililng should only be applied to Muslims.

It is not however religious profiling. I am highly selective and only profile on the grounds of Baldwin for Christness
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:37
I think a lot of people use the word "hate" too loosely.

For me, I dislike certain kinds of music so intensely that the sound of them creates a kind of physical discomfort for me. I can't think, or eat, or relax if I hear it. I just want to be away from it. I will lunge to change that radio station. I will immediately veto any group vote to listen to it, dig in my heels in total unreasonability, etc. -- even though there are other kinds of music that I don't like but can stand to be around for a while. Because of that intensity of reaction -- which I can only assume has some organic source and is a response to some quality of the sound -- I classify my feeling about that music as "hate" while other feelings are merely "dislike."

So, would the "hate" in this case just be a way of organizing and expressing your cognitive assessment of something? For me, prolonged physical discomfort tends to cause anger, or at least irritability, so that might be why I sometimes overlap the two, but I can see where it wouldn't always have to be that way.


My hatred for an idea like racism or neoconservatism is an entirely different kind of thing, but it also falls on a scale of intensity on which hatred is a more extreme and intense feeling than dislike or opposition. That hatred, which is characterized by unyielding opposition without any consideration of compromise and by declaring myself the "enemy" of those who espouse such ideas, is based on a rather cold analysis of the given ideas and a judgment that those ideas are so incompatible with my ideas of right and wrong and of fairness that, if they were to be implemented in my society, my life would be harmed by them.

So I guess that goes back to Dumb Ideologies idea of a hate as an emotional response to a sense of threat. I also think that certain kinds of physical stimuli can evoke a very similar emotional response, albeit usually of shorter duration and more limited application (the turning off of a radio, as opposed to prolonged political fighting). And I do think there is an intensity factor in defining what is "hate" and what is not.

Hm...so maybe hate is a status that the mind gives to something that has shown itself to be an abiding threat or danger (whether or not that assessment is correct)?
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:38
what I'm getting at is hate can be manipulated to achieve things like for instance if I wanted to stop people eating chocolate (because I work for a fruit company) I would use things like clever ads that show chocolate setting fire to your children or whatever, just like how some will depicts Gypsies as bloodsucking parasites and others will make awful ads showing babies breathing in smoke

Well that get into the whole issue of how people actually have a hard time distinguishing imaginary things from reality which is a really really grey area of psychology which is probably better left alone. Suffice to say it's an example of hates downside.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:38
I don't want to sound like a champion *for* hate but I think It still does have a meaningful adaptive function, despite the fact that we humans seem to go overboard with it 90% of the time. Consider war for example - it is very logical to *hate* you enemy it allows you to be a very bad person to those people and do very bad things to them - and still keep your morality intact for every other (non-enemy) person.

Now that's an interesting idea...a way of bifarcating one's cognitions, allowing you to be monstrous to the enemy, then go home and be kind to your children?

A sort of encapsulation, to quarantine the vileness associated with horrific violence from the rest of the mind?
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:41
You know what really surprises me? No Jedi references yet.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:42
what I'm getting at is hate can be manipulated to achieve things like for instance if I wanted to stop people eating chocolate (because I work for a fruit company) I would use things like clever ads that show chocolate setting fire to your children or whatever, just like how some will depicts Gypsies as bloodsucking parasites and others will make awful ads showing babies breathing in smoke

Ahh I see. Yes, hate is possibly a useful thing sometimes; but I am stating my beleif that in most of today's cases of hate it is an entirely irrational behavior since for the most part, is no longer necesary for survival, which is the only in my mind rational reason to harbor such an emotion.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:42
Now that's an interesting idea...a way of bifarcating one's cognitions, allowing you to be monstrous to the enemy, then go home and be kind to your children?

A sort of encapsulation, to quarantine the vileness associated with horrific violence from the rest of the mind?

Again thats its effect. What I was trying to say in my first post is that I don't think any of this (while interesting) is particularly useful in defining hate. We need to go deeper into the problem of defining emotion altogether ... and I don't think we can.
Trostia
05-01-2009, 01:43
Certainly I don't expect to find a series of nitrogenous formations that amount to "hates black people", but the proclivity to hate itself may have some neurological hardwiring to it.

For example, suppose there is an evolutionarily ingrained desire for fatty foods or something (I have no idea if there is, this is just to illustrate an idea). People go out and get fatty foods, some might like McDonalds more than KFC, their choice/cognition/will whatever is still expressed, but the urge, the desire, is possibly biological.

In that example the urge to eat fatty foods would be biological, and have a preference over which flavor they like. But hatred is taking preference beyond a favored (well, disfavored) choice between alternatives; it's more of a thought process where you obsess over fatty foods and how much you don't like KFC. Not everyone does it, either.

Also I should clarify I am not taking 'hate' to mean simply a preference as is done colloquially. When I say "I hate this song," I don't mean actual hatred, I just mean "I dislike this and want to illustrate it in a suitably melodramatic and exaggerated way."

Hate seems enduring in the species. I'm wondering if, at some point, it had a meaningful adaptive function, or if its just one of those crappy malignancies of human nature that resulted from other factors, or something else entirely.

Anger has a meaningful function, the ability to make associations between objects, the ability to connect them with one's own past experiences, the ability to reflect on one's own state of mind, the ability to have preferences and passions - all of these have meaningful functions, but putting them all together to make a Hatred doesn't have any function I can see.

It's been said that hating makes killing the other tribe and taking their food easier. And it does. But I don't think that has a useful biological function or origin. By the time a primate is warring with other tribes and killing each other, it's gotten the ability to think itself into boxes. And, not uncoincidentally the ability to become mentally ill for non-physiological reasons.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:43
You know what really surprises me? No Jedi references yet.

The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:44
Half of America's hate is caused was Sarah Palin and the other half was caused by Obama. My hate is perfectly rational and not caused by either of those things.
Trostia
05-01-2009, 01:44
You know what really surprises me? No Jedi references yet.

That was the first thing I was gonna do, but then I saw you had an actual point and there was real discussion about to be had and stuff. Kudos to you for that BTW.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:45
The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

And me? What am I? Chopped Liver?
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:47
And me? What am I? Chopped Liver?

*Breaks out cutlery and napkins.*
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 01:48
So, would the "hate" in this case just be a way of organizing and expressing your cognitive assessment of something? For me, prolonged physical discomfort tends to cause anger, or at least irritability, so that might be why I sometimes overlap the two, but I can see where it wouldn't always have to be that way.
In the case of the kind of response I was talking about, the anger would be the result of the condition, not the cause of the condition. So, I would be angry or irritable because I could not escape a discomfort. It's not that I would be uncomfortable because I was angry at the music. Because it would be an effect, not a cause, I would not say my hatred for such music is a result of feeling angry about it. I would instead say that the feeling I describe as "hate" is caused by the same thing that also causes anger/irritability when I can't avoid hearing it.

Hm...so maybe hate is a status that the mind gives to something that has shown itself to be an abiding threat or danger (whether or not that assessment is correct)?
I'm starting to think that might be one of the most reasonable explanations, when talking about "hate" as a judgmental classification of a thing or entity. Why do I hate neocons, whereas I merely disagree with libertarians? Because I view neocon beliefs as a threat to my society, while I don't view libertarians that way, even though there is nearly no point on which I agree with libertarians.

I'm going to have to let this question percolate through my brain for a while. I still think "hate" -- if it is to be a real thing at all -- has to be defined by a particular kind of feeling or emotional state. I also still think that such a feeling or emotional state can also be evoked by things other than loss or threat or perceived unfairness, but then that brings up the question of what "hate" actually is -- the feeling in general, or only that feeling in certain contexts? Also some comments in the thread have made me wonder if there isn't a third kind of hate -- a rather thoughtless and emotionless classification of something as "hated" or "hateful" which functions only as a sort of group-membership bonding enhancer, rather than a personal response to the thing in question.

And, of course, there's the question of whether these differences are real or not.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:49
Surely you must concede that hate does have a useful effect (even if it does more harm than good). Hatred towards someone or something allows you kill or destroy without remorse - furthermore it allows you to have remorse despite anger.

What I mean by this is say you get mad at your kids *your angry* the smashed your car. You don't hate your kids so you don't take a baseball bat to their f*ing head. But that damn monkey B comes along and does it ... and it's not the first time he's f*ed with you -- so you take that f*ing baseball bat to monkey B's head.
Fartsniffage
05-01-2009, 01:49
And me? What am I? Chopped Liver?

Mmmm....liver and date pies.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:51
*snip*

basically I agree with everything you said. We're not going to end this in one night ...
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:54
In that example the urge to eat fatty foods would be biological, and have a preference over which flavor they like. But hatred is taking preference beyond a favored (well, disfavored) choice between alternatives; it's more of a thought process where you obsess over fatty foods and how much you don't like KFC. Not everyone does it, either.

Also I should clarify I am not taking 'hate' to mean simply a preference as is done colloquially. When I say "I hate this song," I don't mean actual hatred, I just mean "I dislike this and want to illustrate it in a suitably melodramatic and exaggerated way."

So, in this usage of the term, the hate is unnessarily intense, a priori. This would fit more with it as a sort of mental pathology?


Anger has a meaningful function, the ability to make associations between objects, the ability to connect them with one's own past experiences, the ability to reflect on one's own state of mind, the ability to have preferences and passions - all of these have meaningful functions, but putting them all together to make a Hatred doesn't have any function I can see.

It's been said that hating makes killing the other tribe and taking their food easier. And it does. But I don't think that has a useful biological function or origin. By the time a primate is warring with other tribes and killing each other, it's gotten the ability to think itself into boxes. And, not uncoincidentally the ability to become mentally ill for non-physiological reasons.

So, in this view, it was never useful to begin with. Are there circumstances were it could be useful?
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:54
Surely you must concede that hate does have a useful effect (even if it does more harm than good). Hatred towards someone or something allows you kill or destroy without remorse - furthermore it allows you to have remorse despite anger.

What I mean by this is say you get mad at your kids *your angry* the smashed your car. You don't hate your kids so you don't take a baseball bat to their f*ing head. But that damn monkey B comes along and does it ... and it's not the first time he's f*ed with you -- so you take that f*ing baseball bat to monkey B's head.

Hey now, ok... I am also a B, and I am taking offense to this one sided and poorly analyzed outlook on Monkey B. I suggest that Monkey A was too meek and not assertive enough in his competition with Monkey B, and so in short got exactly what Darwin said he would.

Besides, Monkey B is great at parties, as long as you don't let him spike the punch.
Heikoku 2
05-01-2009, 01:54
It occurs to me that the one thing that is needed to solve the problems in the Middle East is the ability to forgive. Until the "eye for an eye" mentality is defeated, there can be no peace.

o_o

A well thought-out post on a Jews vs. Muslims conflict that doesn't pin the blame on either...?

Inconceivable! O_O
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:55
Mmmm....liver and date pies.

*ignites lightsaber* I said stay back! AAARRRRGGG!
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 01:55
Heres an idea. Since our hand are pretty much tied in defining this lets try - for the sake of argument to define this in terms of mental models. What I propose is a minimal model of Monkey A's stat of mind *hateing monkey B* ... can I cut and paste unicode here? å
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:56
o_o

A well thought-out post on a Jews vs. Muslims conflict that doesn't pin the blame on either...?

Inconceivable! O_O

Nuke the place so people will stop fighting over it isn't?
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:56
That was the first thing I was gonna do, but then I saw you had an actual point and there was real discussion about to be had and stuff. Kudos to you for that BTW.

No, please, make any off topic funnyspam you want, its part of nationstates.

If we had a whole thread with nothing but serious, measured discussion, it would be like inhaling pure, pressurized oxygen...it would kill us all.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 01:58
Heres an idea. Since our hand are pretty much tied in defining this lets try - for the sake of argument to define this in terms of mental models. What I propose is a minimal model of Monkey A's stat of mind *hateing monkey B* ... can I cut and paste unicode here? å

Very well.

Monkey A shakes his fist at monkey B and says "Wernstrom!"
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 01:58
Don Lemon of CNN is sorry that my flight is delayed...
SaintB
05-01-2009, 01:58
No, please, make any off topic funnyspam you want, its part of nationstates.

If we had a whole thread with nothing but serious, measured discussion, it would be like inhaling pure, pressurized oxygen...it would kill us all.

Good, I don't have to feel guilty now, I was really trying to be serious in this discussion but then the oppurtunity for hilarity grabbed me by the wrist and I was forced down the funny path.
Trostia
05-01-2009, 02:00
So, in this usage of the term, the hate is unnessarily intense, a priori. This would fit more with it as a sort of mental pathology?

Yep. Alas there's no way to really measure the intensity, as such.

So, in this view, it was never useful to begin with. Are there circumstances were it could be useful?

I'm trying to think of some and I can't. Fear and hostility seem suitable enough to meet any flight-or-fight situation. I classify hate along with a phobia - excessive hostility for rather than excessive fear of.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:01
Hate is one of the many vital elements of marriage...
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:01
heres the first model .... it represents one event in which monkey A is angry at monkey B for stealing a banana

A
------------------
steal(banna,B) -> angry(A,B)

Now where to go from here...

Is hate something like a scale? in which case we might use something like this (INC is an increment operator which increments HATE by one)

angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

Does this make sense?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:03
Monkey A only hate Monkey B if he gets away with it, and if he doesn't, then B hates A.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:03
Hate is one of the many vital elements of marriage...

Hate is also the antithesis of love - interesting and actually quite logical that they would be related

perhaps we should decrement love

angry(A,X) -> DEC(LOVE,A,X)
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:04
heres the first model .... it represents one event in which monkey A is angry at monkey B for stealing a banana

A
------------------
steal(banna,B) -> angry(A,B)

Now where to go from here...

Is hate something like a scale? in which case we might use something like this (INC is an increment operator which increments HATE by one)

angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

Does this make sense?

Monkey A should have just used the high road to get ahead of Monkey B and head him off at the next pass. See what I mean? He should be more assertive and take some lessons from John Wayne.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:05
Monkey A only hate Monkey B if he gets away with it, and if he doesn't, then B hates A.

lets take it as given that he got away with it.
New Manvir
05-01-2009, 02:07
obviously god did it.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:07
lets take it as given that he got away with it.

Either way, someone hates someone else. It's a vicsious cycle.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:07
The question is now how does hate come into play in future interaction between monkey A and B. we know that monkey A hates monkey B a little bit but what does monkey A do with his hatred?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:08
Monkey A wacks Monkey B in the head with a rock?
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:14
The question is now how does hate come into play in future interaction between monkey A and B. we know that monkey A hates monkey B a little bit but what does monkey A do with his hatred?

Starts a range war for dominance of the Bannana Plantation.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:16
Starts a range war for dominance of the Bannana Plantation.

Isn't that how Cuba got independence or something?
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:16
I just realized that if we consider bananas numerically we can link monkey A's greed to his hatred this seems to make sense but I think it would be wrong.

Supposing the new model where HATE and BANANA are numbers.

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

So every time B steals a banana from B, A hates him a little more. Suppose that 5 bananas is the threshold for A killing B. Then we have something like this...

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)
(HATE > 5) -> kill(X)

oops this model doesnt take into account that Hate must be directed towards B
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:17
I just realized that if we consider bananas numerically we can link monkey A's greed to his hatred this seems to make sense but I think it would be wrong.

Supposing the new model where HATE and BANANA are numbers.

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

So every time B steals a banana from B, A hates him a little more. Suppose that 5 bananas is the threshold for A killing B. Then we have something like this...

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)
(HATE > 5) -> kill(X)

You just over complicated things...
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:18
Isn't that how Cuba got independence or something?

Pretty much. Its also how America was settled.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:19
You just over complicated things...

Thats what they train you to do in uni :)
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:20
If monkey A would just take my advice, none of this would have happened.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:21
If I only had shot Monkey A on that safari when I had the chance...
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:23
Still I don't think that was a bad exercise but I think I'm done with it for now ... at least it represents a state of mind which justifies killing monkey B for repeatedly stealing his bannas. But the fundamental problem with the ideal of modeling this is that in this is that HATE is just a number. I don't think we can possibly define HATE that way.

epic fail.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:23
heres the first model .... it represents one event in which monkey A is angry at monkey B for stealing a banana

A
------------------
steal(banna,B) -> angry(A,B)

Now where to go from here...

Is hate something like a scale? in which case we might use something like this (INC is an increment operator which increments HATE by one)

angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

Does this make sense?
No.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:24
Yeah, let's wrap this up for now.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:25
Hate is also the antithesis of love - interesting and actually quite logical that they would be related

perhaps we should decrement love

angry(A,X) -> DEC(LOVE,A,X)

I just realized that if we consider bananas numerically we can link monkey A's greed to his hatred this seems to make sense but I think it would be wrong.

Supposing the new model where HATE and BANANA are numbers.

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)

So every time B steals a banana from B, A hates him a little more. Suppose that 5 bananas is the threshold for A killing B. Then we have something like this...

A
------------------------------
steal(BANANA,B) -> angry(A,B) & DEC(BANANA,B)
angry(A,X) -> INC(HATE,A,X)
(HATE > 5) -> kill(X)

oops this model doesnt take into account that Hate must be directed towards B
These don't make any sense, either. Can't you talk with words?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:25
10010111010110100101010101

2
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:26
These don't make any sense, either. Can't you talk with words?

I think my arguments made perfect sense though.
Neo Art
05-01-2009, 02:26
these don't make any sense, either. Can't you talk with words?

7. 13. 29.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:26
These don't make any sense, either. Can't you talk with words?

This reminds me of the time that a guy over in astro spent 11 hours trying to figure out if he could compare Babylon 5 to Meatholes 5 using nothing but symbolic logic.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:27
7. 13. 29.

Leave it to a lawyer to talk about hate using only primes.
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:27
7. 13. 29.
Are those your measurements? :p

*is launching an experiment in the stimulus that creates a hate response*
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:27
1347? Over 9000?
Neo Art
05-01-2009, 02:28
Leave it to a lawyer to talk about hate using only primes.

holy shit someone noticed. You should be on yahoo more, n00b.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:28
Are those your measurements? :p

*is launching an experiment in the stimulus that creates a hate response*

Its interesting that this thread has had comparatively little animosity, by NSG standards, and its about hate.
Neo Art
05-01-2009, 02:28
Its interesting that this thread has had comparatively little animosity, by NSG standards, and its about hate.

fuck you.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:28
holy shit someone noticed. You should be on yahoo more, n00b.

Did I tell you, you won the taco and Bookers for getting the Suhdek reference.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:28
It's nothing specific.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:29
fuck you.

Up yours, Jew. Your idealogy is dirt! (See HappyLesbos in other thread)
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:29
I'm the Jew here!!!! Fuck YOU!!!!
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:30
1347? Over 9000?

Both divisible by three. You're hateful.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:30
fuck you.

No fuck me!


Wait, I think I messed up here...
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:30
Its interesting that this thread has had comparatively little animosity, by NSG standards, and its about hate.
I guess talking about it is less exciting than doing it, at least for some people.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:31
I'm the Jew here!!!! Fuck YOU!!!!

How do Jews settle land disputes between Jews?

Neo Art is more Jewish than you, though.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:31
Both divisible by three. You're hateful.

3 is a good nombre. fuck YOU!
Neesika
05-01-2009, 02:31
I guess talking about it is less exciting than doing it, at least for some people.

Well yeah...part of the fun of hatred is its irrationality. I don't want to discuss WHY I hate being tickled, I just want to punch people out for attempting it.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:32
I guess talking about it is less exciting than doing it, at least for some people.

I feel the same way about sordid, nasty, Tijuana sex where you wash your crotch in the sink afterwords and then go get a Caesar Salad.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:32
How do Jews settle land disputes between Jews?


Maybe they compare noses? :D
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:32
How do Jews settle land disputes between Jews?

Neo Art is more Jewish than you, though.

fuck Neo Art. I hate him and you.

Naaa just kiddin.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:33
Well yeah...part of the fun of hatred is it's irrationality. I don't want to discuss WHY I hate being tickled, I just want to punch people out for attempting it.

So, wait, we're defining hate as not being expressable as a ratio of integers?



Progress!!!!!!
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:33
Maybe they compare noses? :D

My jew nose is below average. I'm so ashamed.....
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:33
So, wait, we're defining hate as not being expressable as a ratio of integers?



Progress!!!!!!

No shit sherlock?
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:34
Wow, we went from lucid, reasonable discourse on a fairly challenging subject....to "Fuck you, my Jew Nose is bigger" and we did it all in 125 posts...
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:34
I feel the same way about sordid, nasty, Tijuana sex where you wash your crotch in the sink afterwords and then go get a Caesar Salad.
You know, the scariest part of that scenario, to me, is the idea of getting a Caesar salad in Tijuana -- at least in the areas where the kinds of whores you run around with work.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:35
You know, the scariest part of that scenario, to me, is the idea of getting a Caesar salad in Tijuana -- at least in the areas where the kinds of whores you run around with work.

As a point of fact, the Caesar salad was invented within walking distance of my whoring grounds. I'm quite serious.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:35
Wow, we went from lucid, reasonable discourse on a fairly challenging subject....to "Fuck you, my Jew Nose is bigger" and we did it all in 125 posts...

Epic WIN!!!!
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:35
Wow, we went from lucid, reasonable discourse on a fairly challenging subject....to "Fuck you, my Jew Nose is bigger" and we did it all in 125 posts...
We're that good. :D
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:35
My jew nose is below average. I'm so ashamed.....

I'd say bank accounts, but Neo is a Corperate Attorny or something like that from what I know.

Face it, he's more Jewish than you are.


You all know I'm kidding right? :)
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:36
You know, the scariest part of that scenario, to me, is the idea of getting a Caesar salad in Tijuana -- at least in the areas where the kinds of whores you run around with work.

the scariest part is the water they wash it with...
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 02:36
As a point of fact, the Caesar salad was invented within walking distance of my whoring grounds. I'm quite serious.
That explains a lot about that salad.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:37
I'd say bank accounts, but Neo is a Corperate Attorny or something like that from what I know.

Face it, he's more Jewish than you are.


You all know I'm kidding right? :)

Neo Art is actually lead counsel for the Zionist Illumaniti. S'truth.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:39
the scariest part is the water they wash it with...

Worst part is, half the time in TJ I get better food and better service than in my own country.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:40
Neo Art is actually lead counsel for the Zionist Illumaniti. S'truth.

Definatly far more Jewish...

If we had more Jewish people here that I knew wouldn't be offended I would create a thread named "Who Jew You Love?" in a joking kind of competition.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:40
I'm 6'5 and 250 lbs. I win. my nose is 2 centimeters( a nose friendly messurement.)
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:41
Definatly far more Jewish...

If we had more Jewish people here that I knew wouldn't be offended I would create a thread named "Who Jew You Love?" in a joking kind of competition.

George Thoroughgood doing a traditional Jewish prayer...I'm not sure which would be cooler, him really practicing and learning to do it well, or him just doing it with electric guitar and four black guys...
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:41
Definatly far more Jewish...

If we had more Jewish people here that I knew wouldn't be offended I would create a thread named "Who Jew You Love?" in a joking kind of competition.

I'm a russian jew. we've been taught to stay away from capitalism.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:42
I'm 6'5 and 250 lbs. I win. my nose is 2 centimeters( a nose friendly messurement.)

from where to where?
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:42
These don't make any sense, either. Can't you talk with words?

Wait till I get started in Prolog :eek2:

I'll try. The models describe a state of mind on monkey A which justify the killing of monkey B. Earlier we were talking about the distinction between the effects of hate and Hate itself. The model really doesn't represent hatred itself all that well (Hate is a number) but what it does do is get the truth conditions right for killing monkey B.

By doing this we can also clearly see the difference between hate - and the state of mind required to hate and the effects of hate... At least I hope others can clearly see that.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:43
I'm more jewish than the monkey....
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:44
Wait till I get started in Prolog :eek2:

I'll try. The models describe a state of mind on monkey A which justify the killing of monkey B. Earlier we were talking about the distinction between the effects of hate and Hate itself. The model really doesn't represent hatred itself all that well (Hate is a number) but what it does do is get the truth conditions right for killing monkey B.

By doing this we can also clearly see the difference between hate - and the state of mind required to hate and the effects of hate... At least I hope others can clearly see that.

This reminds me of the time Georg Cantor tried to explain to a Prague chambermaid how badly he wanted to bone her using only set theory...
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:45
Wow, we went from lucid, reasonable discourse on a fairly challenging subject....to "Fuck you, my Jew Nose is bigger" and we did it all in 125 posts...

Thats why I hate you all... *runs to corner stars crying*
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:45
I'm more jewish than the monkey....

Now that depends on the monkey.

Monkey B is a poser anyway, doesn't keep Kosher, doesn't attend temple, dating a shiksa. I hate pseu-Jews.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:45
I'm more jewish than the monkey....

Hmm, I don't know. After all Bananas and Gold have a lot in common.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:46
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! You loled my roflcopter!
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:46
This reminds me of the time Georg Cantor tried to explain to a Prague chambermaid how badly he wanted to bone her using only set theory...

Comparing me to Cantor -- gee thanks :).
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:47
Comparing me to Cantor -- gee thanks :).

Hopefully you'll have a better retirement.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:47
Hmm, I don't know. After all Bananas and Gold have a lot in common.

Yes, and that's why I horde both.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:47
Now that depends on the monkey.

Monkey B is a poser anyway, doesn't keep Kosher, doesn't attend temple, dating a shiksa. I hate pseu-Jews.

And his favorite sandwich is ham and pastromi on a rye bagel.

With mayo!


You guys are right, he is a jerk. :$
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:49
Yeah, what an ass. He drinks pepsi too. coke is kosher.
SaintB
05-01-2009, 02:49
Yes, and that's why I horde both.

Ok, you win this round.

You're 1-1 now.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:50
I speak hebrew and yiddish, too.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:51
I speak hebrew and yiddish, too.

Gotta admit, that's very Jew.
FreeSatania
05-01-2009, 02:51
Hopefully you'll have a better retirement.

at least he wasn't Montegued
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:53
My grandpa my the boss in "its a wonderful life".
Myrmidonisia
05-01-2009, 02:55
I think there is more to the peace process than that

Undeniably. But there will be no chance at all for a peace until the two sides can forgive each other for the past atrocities. I know, it's a Christian idea and those are out of favor, but without it all efforts at peace will fail. All we will see are the periodic ceasefires that both sides use to re-arm and re-deploy.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 02:57
BLOW it up.

No, give to the bhuddists, next.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 02:57
Undeniably. But there will be no chance at all for a peace until the two sides can forgive each other for the past atrocities. I know, it's a Christian idea and those are out of favor, but without it all efforts at peace will fail. All we will see are the periodic ceasefires that both sides use to re-arm and re-deploy.

Forgiveness is a "Christian" idea? In anyway moreso than several other religions?

I dont know if we have to torture-kill an ostensibly innocent person in order to get forgiveness here. There are a lot of belief systems that include forgiveness, without the human blood sacrifice.
Neo Art
05-01-2009, 02:58
Did I tell you, you won the taco and Bookers for getting the Suhdek reference.

I figured you'd like my answer.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 03:00
I figured you'd like my answer.

Well, Frank is bad about forgiveness, which is evidently "a Christian idea, and those are out of favor", according to Myrmidonisa a few posts above.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 03:00
I'll torture someone till they forgive me. think about that next time you hold a grudge.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 03:01
I'll torture someone till they forgive me. think about that next time you hold a grudge.

Your people's ideology predates Christianity, so apparently you don't understand forgiveness, which is a Christian idea.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 03:03
I'm a messianic Jew.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 03:08
I'm a messianic Jew.

Where's your messiah now, see?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 03:10
Ain't you no heard of no "Jews For Jesus"?
[NS]Kagetora
05-01-2009, 03:11
With the vitriol in the thread on Israel/Palestine right now, and just generally associated with observation of human behavior, I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on how the concept of "hate" evolved and developed among humans.

Please feel free to apply various definitions, but I'm mostly looking for discourse on how the mental state of hate, in both the instantaneous and abiding case, may have origins as some kind of surivival or coping mechanism.

Does the fight/flight instinct result in a "seething", a physical nervous response that, over time, extrapolates into an ingrained and self-perpetuating assessment of something as being "hated"? Can that more abstract cognitive incarnation of the concept then in turn be delivered to children, peers, governments, which then come full circle and result in events that return to the jagged, emotion state?

Is it a feedback loop, a spiraling remnant of a time when "hate" had some more reasonable purpose, but is now a maladaptive heuristic?

Examples from other primates or the animal kingdom at large are welcome, but I'm also very interested in the "scalability" of hate, its different magnitudes, levels of complexity, etc.

This has probably already been said, but it is similar to the development of fear (a human who has a weird feeling when they see a lion is more likely to survive than one who walks up to it to pet it)

When human population got large enough that cooperation wasn't as necessary, the battle for resources began, causing individuals to see others as enemies (which is pretty much hate)

Now the monkeysphere comes in. Humans can only truly know a certain amount of people (the average is about 200, and this means you know their likes/dislikes, social life, date of birth, favorite color, etc.). An entire nation is impossible to know.

So in an example, Person A from Nation A has had bad things that happened to Person/Nation A from Person B. Person B comes from Nation B. Person A now sees Person B as an enemy. Because Person A can't know/experienced company with everybody from Nation B, they are likely to assume that everybody from Nation B is like Person B (this is racism, which is a form of hate)
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 03:17
Ain't you no heard of no "Jews For Jesus"?

One time, outside the t-shirt stand at Steven Baldwins Extreme Teen Youth Rollerblading Competition and Abortion Protest.

They weren't as compelling as "Scientologists for Raelians", though.
Baldwin for Christ
05-01-2009, 03:17
Kagetora;14366008']This has probably already been said, but it is similar to the development of fear (a human who has a weird feeling when they see a lion is more likely to survive than one who walks up to it to pet it)

When human population got large enough that cooperation wasn't as necessary, the battle for resources began, causing individuals to see others as enemies (which is pretty much hate)

Now the monkeysphere comes in. Humans can only truly know a certain amount of people (the average is about 200, and this means you know their likes/dislikes, social life, date of birth, favorite color, etc.). An entire nation is impossible to know.

So in an example, Person A from Nation A has had bad things that happened to Person/Nation A from Person B. Person B comes from Nation B. Person A now sees Person B as an enemy. Because Person A can't know/experienced company with everybody from Nation B, they are likely to assume that everybody from Nation B is like Person B (this is racism, which is a form of hate)

Yeah, FreeSatania put forward something akin to that, but then he tried to render it in symbolic logic and it turned into a debate about Jew nose sizes.
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 03:19
One time, outside the t-shirt stand at Steven Baldwins Extreme Teen Youth Rollerblading Competition and Abortion Protest.

They weren't as compelling as "Scientologists for Raelians", though.

I blame tom cruise. plus I have a big jew nose. ;)
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 05:18
Wait till I get started in Prolog :eek2:

I'll try. The models describe a state of mind on monkey A which justify the killing of monkey B. Earlier we were talking about the distinction between the effects of hate and Hate itself. The model really doesn't represent hatred itself all that well (Hate is a number) but what it does do is get the truth conditions right for killing monkey B.

By doing this we can also clearly see the difference between hate - and the state of mind required to hate and the effects of hate... At least I hope others can clearly see that.
Nope, still doesn't make any sense. I'm beginning to hate you, but I'm not sure why. ;)
Muravyets
05-01-2009, 05:23
One time, outside the t-shirt stand at Steven Baldwins Extreme Teen Youth Rollerblading Competition and Abortion Protest.

They weren't as compelling as "Scientologists for Raelians", though.
*adds bolded to list in new internet meme thread*

Yeah, FreeSatania put forward something akin to that, but then he tried to render it in symbolic logic and it turned into a debate about Jew nose sizes.
As usual.
Peepelonia
05-01-2009, 13:29
Hate I think is a very over used word. 'Ohh I hate that show' or 'I bloody hate that actor', really means I don't like it.

I don't actualy hate anything, except bigotry, and most ex squadies I know. The rest, well I merely dislike.
Heikoku 2
05-01-2009, 19:43
The rest, well I merely dislike.

Like, ALL the rest?
Dondolastan
05-01-2009, 21:42
Like, ALL the rest?

Sure, that's a reasonably possible fact. I know that's how I feel.
Truly Blessed
05-01-2009, 22:07
Unlike other animals humans need a reason to kill. We can just go around killing everyone we do not like or argee with. Hate provides us with the justification do hostile things to said object or group.

There are several types of hate:

Extreme dislike - probably came from toxic plants, insects, dangers, things that cause stress

There is hate based on fear that the person, group, object somehow undermines your security or sense of well being.

Hate basically permits you to be hostile/violent to whatever is causing you to hate.

There are several steps in the process of hate

1. Classification - People are divided into us vs them
2. Symbolization - Such as having to wear a star on your clothing
3. Dehumanization - That the people are somehow not the same as you, that you are totally in the right and are justified in taking further measures
4. Organization - Find others who think as you do
5. Polarization - You are either with us or you are against us or at best a colaborator / sympathizer
6. Identification - Your targets are identified and seprated from you
7. Extermination - You are eliminating a pest you have dehumanized the victim to point the are no better than vermin.
8. Denial - You deny commiting any crime
Cameroi
06-01-2009, 09:23
as a means of manipulating people into supporting those who wish to command others into supporting their doing so.

of course we're inherently annoyed at annoyances, but creating an illusion of differences equaling annoyances is pure exploitive manipulation.
Peepelonia
06-01-2009, 14:58
Like, ALL the rest?

Heh no I mean the things that oridinarliy people proclaim that they hate, well if I should feel similar to that it is not hate, but dislike.

For example, people will often say 'Ohh that Tom Crusie, I hate him'. what they really mean is I dislike his personality, or more offten, I don't rate him as an actor. I agree I don't rate Tom Cruise as an actor, but hate him, well I don't even know him, how can I feel hate for somebody I don't even know?