NationStates Jolt Archive

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/394443_nazi02.html
Seattle police shot and killed a University of Washington senior who was dressed in a World War II-era German uniform and who officers say was brandishing a long rifle with a bayonet early Thursday in his University District apartment.

The student, identified by friends as Miles Allen Murphy, was well-known on campus as a smart, eccentric history buff who loved to participate in WWII re-enactments and would even show up to class, at times, dressed in a historic uniform.

Friends said Murphy, 22, would entertain at parties by playing everything from old German folk songs to Britney Spears tunes on his accordion.

Murphy was killed about 2 a.m. Thursday when police responded to neighbors' complaints that several men were shooting vintage, military-style rifles and shotguns into a dark alley near the 5200 block of 17th Avenue Northeast, police spokesman Jeff Kappel said.

When police were called, Kappel said, neighbors pointed out an apartment in a large white house. When police knocked on the door, one of the suspects opened the door brandishing a long rifle with a large bayonet attached.

Uniformed police officers warned the man several times to drop his weapon. He didn't, Kappel said, and he pointed it at one of the officers. Two officers shot him several times. He died at a hospital Thursday morning, Kappel said.

Spencer Bray, a UW senior, was one of about 20 friends who gathered Thursday night to share stories about Murphy. Bray said Murphy — a German cultural-studies major — had amassed a large collection of WWII memorabilia from the Internet, goodwill stores and from antique dealers.

"He was one of the most peaceful guys I have met. He was really just a nice guy," Bray said. "I never heard him espousing any Nazi ideology; none of that interested him. He liked the physical stuff from WWII because he was such a history buff."

Bray said Murphy sometimes would wear kilts or uniforms to class — including German and U.S. gear from WWII — but would make sure the outfits didn't have symbolic additions such as swastikas.

"He had this Russian snow coat that he'd been wearing recently," Bray said. "It was military issue from WWII."

He said Murphy spoke good German and Swedish, as well as some Finnish, and wanted to be a professor of German literature.

"He was eccentric, but he was very well-liked," Bray said. "It's a huge shock. I read the news today and ... it was really, really hard to hear for all of us."


Murphy worked part time at Red Mill Burgers on Phinney Ridge, Bray said, and always would tip well when he ate out as a result of his experience in the hospitality trade.

On the social-networking site MySpace, Murphy wrote, in a joking fashion, that he lived in a 1920s room and only entered the 21st century when "absolutely necessary." He wrote that he collected vintage clothes and never turned down a well-mixed martini. He listed "Mr. Bayonet" as his lucky charm and said he was "kind of impulsive."

Bray recalled one party when Murphy entertained the crowd on his accordion with everything from old folk songs to "Les Miserables." Murphy also could play piano, violin, banjo and guitar, his friend said.

"He could figure out just about any song on any of the instruments that he played," Bray said. "It was really cool. It was fun to have him play and sing."

The shooting took place in a quiet neighborhood of large homes near the university.

The man who lives in the apartment next door, Mark Kedziora, said that before Thursday night he hadn't seen his neighbor wearing a full German military uniform, but said the man wore a black mustache, combed-over hair and military boots.

Kedziora said he saw his neighbor and two other men with guns standing in the alley at about 1:30 a.m. Thursday. He looked outside when he heard a loud bang, thinking the guns were fake. But when he watched the men reload, he realized the guns were real and said to his friend, "That guy's an idiot."

One of the men was wearing an olive uniform and a military helmet, Kedziora said, and his neighbor was wearing a Nazi military uniform.

"I didn't know he had the whole get-up," he said. A third man was wearing street clothes. It wasn't clear if either of the other two men live at the apartment.

Kedziora said he heard confusion outside and could hear police warning the man to drop his weapon. A few minutes later, they watched out the window as the wounded neighbor was taken away and SWAT teams searched the neighborhood.

Police searching the apartment after the incident found the large collection of German military regalia and a lot of alcohol, Kappel said.

At one point, police evacuated the building, waking tenants.

A few scraps of yellow police tape remained in the alley Thursday afternoon.

No one answered the door at the apartment where the shooting occurred, although the lights were on. Cardboard partially covered a pool of blood on the landing outside the door.

The police officers who fired at the man are on paid administrative leave, which is standard procedure.



Okay let's see, stupid young adult supposedly firing bullets instead of Fireworks on New Years Eve. Neighbors complain Police arrive.

They are geeted at the door by what is the apparent sterotypical Nazi Soldier, complete with actual WWII rifle.

Then they claim he pointed it at them. So they shoot him half a dozen times.

Then of course they search the place no doubt assuming he was some Neo-Nazi terrorist and evacuate the building. Then they find out he was nothing more than a weird but harmless WWII buff.

-----
This is both very sad and very bizarre.

Guns and alcohol don't mix. A rather unfortunate end to a situation that could have been avoided completely.

Guns and alcohol don't mix. A rather unfortunate end to a situation that could have been avoided completely.

Agreed. That seems to be the cause of this event.

First I heard of that. The Seattle Police are a bunch of asses. I kind of wonder if this went down as they say. However one should never answer the door with weapon in hand. Not a good plan under any circumstance.

Guns and alcohol don't mix. A rather unfortunate end to a situation that could have been avoided completely.
Agreed, but neither side is entirely blameless. The cops may have (arguably) over reacted, but he should have had the sense to do as he was told.:(

Agreed, but neither side is entirely blameless. The cops may have (arguably) over reacted, but he should have had the sense to do as he was told.:(

Well, I wonder if he verbally threatened them at all. I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back. Did they actually shoot him a dozen times? Or is that exaggeration

Agreed, but neither side is entirely blameless. The cops may have (arguably) over reacted, but he should have had the sense to do as he was told.:( I'm suspisious of that claim.
I really doubt he aimed at the police. I wouldn't even think they'd let him have the time to get that far.

Well, I wonder if he verbally threatened them at all. I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back. Did they actually shoot him a dozen times? Or is that exaggeration
I think it's policy to keep shooting until they're on the ground if they are a threat. Because almost all of these shootings have the victim littered with lead.

And being in a doorway and with a bunch of stuff on I bet that took a few seconds.

Maybe Cops need to rethink that system.

I'm suspisious of that claim.
I really doubt he aimed at the police. I wouldn't even think they'd let him have the time to get that far.

Typically police will not shoot if a weapon is not raised. However the cover story is always "They raised the weapon" if they screw up.

I'm suspisious of that claim.
I really doubt he aimed at the police. I wouldn't even think they'd let him have the time to get that far.
Wouldn't surprise me at all. But for now I'm going to wait further developments before jumping to conclusions.

I think it's policy to keep shooting until they're on the ground if they are a threat. Because almost all of these shootings have the victim littered with lead.

And being in a doorway and with a bunch of stuff on I bet that took a few seconds.

Maybe Cops need to rethink that system.[/QUOTE]






police and swat officers are taught to shoot to kill. the trained snipers are taught to shoot for "effect" meaning either disabling the target or a kill shot if necessary. and i do think it was kinda stupid of him to answer the door, rifle in hand.

Guns and alcohol don't mix. A rather unfortunate end to a situation that could have been avoided completely.

...
opened the door brandishing a long rifle with a large bayonet attached.
Uniformed police officers warned the man several times to drop his weapon. He didn't, Kappel said, and he pointed it at one of the officers.

:rolleyes:

Weapons and stupidity don't mix, either. It's not a good idea to aim point-blank a Mauser 98 at a policeman who's telling you to drop it...

Though I recall something about a 20lbs cannon being carried into a van to a historical reenacting... and the Carabinieri halting the van and opening the rear door... to be confronted with the muzzle of the cannon...

Lesson of the day: Unless you are in a crime infested neighborhood, you don't answer the door with a weapon.

Corollary: If you do answer the door and it's the police, drop the weapon.

...
opened the door brandishing a long rifle with a large bayonet attached.
Uniformed police officers warned the man several times to drop his weapon. He didn't, Kappel said, and he pointed it at one of the officers.

:rolleyes:

Weapons and stupidity don't mix, either. It's not a good idea to aim point-blank a Mauser 98 at a policeman who's telling you to drop it...

Though I recall something about a 20lbs cannon being carried into a van to a historical reenacting... and the Carabinieri halting the van and opening the rear door... to be confronted with the muzzle of the cannon...

So youre saying he deserved to die?

Maybe he was trying to lower the weapon I suppose the rifle would have been upright when he answered the door. If he was drunk when lowering the weapon it was probably bound to have tipped forward as he lowered it -- after all that is how the arm naturally moves. The cops who are already panicked by the uniform and rifle start shooting back.

A very stupid way to die. Also, The Infinite Dunes, I commend you for your purchase of the War on Terror boardgame.

A very stupid way to die. Also, The Infinite Dunes, I commend you for your purchase of the War on Terror boardgame.I was already having the game when I made a thread about the game. ;p But I've bought another since -- it was a xmas gift for my family. :D

I was already having the game when I made a thread about the game. ;p But I've bought another since -- it was a xmas gift for my family. :D
D'oh of course.

So youre saying he deserved to die?I don't know about Risotta, but to me, it looks like a classic Darwin award.

Seriously. You do not point a rifle at policemen - well, any person, really - pointing their guns at you. At least, not unless you actually plan to shoot them. Everything else is highly likely to get you shot by the guys who don't want to be shot by you, regardless of whether you were kidding or not.

Also, handling a gun while apparently more than just slightly tipsy isn't exactly the kind of behaviour that makes me feel much sympathy.

what a bunch of Nazi's!

show up to class, at times, dressed in a historic uniform.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/timcat26/attention-whore.jpg

Does seem a shame, really.

Dropped a hell of a clanger, answering the door with a gun, if that is what he did.

It is kind of attention-seeking, that sort of behaviour.

Hmmm.... perhaps I should rethink answering the door dressed as a ninja.

Hmmm.... perhaps I should rethink answering the door dressed as a ninja.
So long as you ain't carrying any weapons, you're probably fine.

That and looking out of the window or something to make sure who is there is probably also a good idea.

So youre saying he deserved to die?

"Deserving" is too much. Sure he didn't act in an intelligent way. When confronted with armed policemen, it's better to obey, and to avoid aiming a weapon at them.

Could be a good candidate for a Darwin.

"Deserving" is too much. Sure he didn't act in an intelligent way. When confronted with armed policemen, it's better to obey, and to avoid aiming a weapon at them.

Could be a good candidate for a Darwin.

lol eugenics.

Hmmm.... perhaps I should rethink answering the door dressed as a ninja.

If you do it right the police will just be left there wondering how the door opened on its own.

Hmmm.... perhaps I should rethink answering the door dressed as a ninja.

Especially if it's pirates knocking.

So youre saying he deserved to die?

He didn't deserve to die. And the problem here didn't start with the guy answering the door holding a rifle with a bayonet. It started with this guy and his friends firing the *rifles in town while intoxicated*. That is why the police were called. Had he any sense, knowing he and his friends would be drinking on New Years, he should have kept those rifles locked up.

Especially if it's pirates knocking.

Pirates don't knock.

Any way I can imagine one could carry a rifle (or other long firearm) makes it unusable unless it is being carried in a position to be fired. They likely shot him for trying to put it down.

lol

He didn't deserve to die. And the problem here didn't start with the guy answering the door holding a rifle with a bayonet. It started with this guy and his friends firing the *rifles in town while intoxicated*. That is why the police were called. Had he any sense, knowing he and his friends would be drinking on New Years, he should have kept those rifles locked up.
agreed. not what I would call a 'responsible gun owner.'

That sucks...Stupid Police...

Remind me not to wear my Civil War cap on New Years..
did you even read the article? :confused:

Although I take the police version of what happened with a grain of salt, it is the only report we have.

It appears undisputed that the partiers were drunk and shooting various firearms in a neighborhood.

It appears undisputed that Mr. Murphy answered the door holding a rifle with a bayonet.

According to the police, they identified themselves and told him several times to drop the weapon. He did not comply.

Instead, according to police, he pointed the firearm at the police.

If the police version is accurate, this shooting, although very unfortunate, appears to be the fault of Mr. Murphy.

That said, police lie -- especially after they've shot someone. And Mr. Murphy's attire may have shocked the officers and influenced their reaction.

Regardless, this appears to be a tragedy.

Just shows that a responsible gun owner can become an irresponsible one with just a few drinks.

Although I take the police version of what happened with a grain of salt, it is the only report we have.

It appears undisputed that the partiers were drunk and shooting various firearms in a neighborhood.

It appears undisputed that Mr. Murphy answered the door holding a rifle with a bayonet.

According to the police, they identified themselves and told him several times to drop the weapon. He did not comply.

Instead, according to police, he pointed the firearm at the police.

If the police version is accurate, this shooting, although very unfortunate, appears to be the fault of Mr. Murphy.

That said, police lie -- especially after they've shot someone. And Mr. Murphy's attire may have shocked the officers and influenced their reaction.

Regardless, this appears to be a tragedy.

According to the article,

The man who lives in the apartment next door, Mark Kedziora, said that before Thursday night he hadn't seen his neighbor wearing a full German military uniform, but said the man wore a black mustache, combed-over hair and military boots.

Kedziora said he saw his neighbor and two other men with guns standing in the alley at about 1:30 a.m. Thursday. He looked outside when he heard a loud bang, thinking the guns were fake. But when he watched the men reload, he realized the guns were real and said to his friend, "That guy's an idiot."

...

Kedziora said he heard confusion outside and could hear police warning the man to drop his weapon. A few minutes later, they watched out the window as the wounded neighbor was taken away and SWAT teams searched the neighborhood.

so there is a witness who heard the police order the man to drop his weapon(s). if they were answering a call about persons firing guns in an alleyway, the police already know they're armed. whether or not he pointed the weapon at the officers is, as you said, unknown. but if the weapon had a bayonet, point it may not be the only thing to cause them to fire. swinging it might (either towards the officer or down to drop it.)

from the sound of it, it could be that Murphy may have thought himself a German Officer while drunk and may have reacted in a manner that was not his normal behavior.

Yeah, It said he was just some old WWII enthusiast...The police show up and see a rifle and they shoot him...


I just think that sucks...

obviously not. else you would've known that the WWII Enthusiast was firing live weapons in an alleyway earlier that night that prompted the police to be called in. also that he had a rifle fixed with a bayonette when the police answered the door and apparently, did not listen when ordered to place the weapon down.

it still sucks that a life was lost, but that doesn't mean the police was stupid.

Having law enforcement experience(as an MP) and assuming the incident went down the way the police said, I can say that I would have pulled the trigger. My uncle Boris was the cause a similar incident in Tampa, and is lucky to be alive, as he admitted he pointed(you don't aim when you're smashed) his AK-74 at the police.

Yeah, It said he was just some old WWII enthusiast...The police show up and see a rifle and they shoot him...


I just think that sucks...You might want to re-read the article.

Having law enforcement experience(as an MP) and assuming the incident went down the way the police said, I can say that I would have pulled the trigger. My uncle Boris was the cause a similar incident in Tampa, and is lucky to be alive, as he admitted he pointed(you don't aim when you're smashed) his AK-74 at the police.

The AK has a pistol grip, isn't a long weapon, and is automatic. I'm pretty sure he had one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k) (judging from related information) -classic rifle design and bolt action which means I discount your comparison and its basis out of hand.

agreed. not what I would call a 'responsible gun owner.'


did you even read the article? :confused:

obviously not. else you would've known that the WWII Enthusiast was firing live weapons in an alleyway earlier that night that prompted the police to be called in. also that he had a rifle fixed with a bayonette when the police answered the door and apparently, did not listen when ordered to place the weapon down.

it still sucks that a life was lost, but that doesn't mean the police was stupid.

You might want to re-read the article.


You might also wish to re-read the thread....

The AK has a pistol grip, isn't a long weapon, and is automatic. I'm pretty sure he had one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k) (judging from related information) -classic rifle design and bolt action which means I discount your comparison and its basis out of hand.

... query? Even with a pistol grip, can I still point an AK at chest level without aiming (pulling up to my head to sight down the barrel)?

You might also wish to re-read the thread....I read the thread and the article. If you make an ignorant comment, you'll probably get multiple responses to it.

I read the thread and the article. If you make an ignorant comment, you'll probably get multiple responses to it.

Well, you see, I did...But, IF you had in fact read the thread, you would have in fact saw that I had gotten two responses...

Meaning that your response was just pointless and annoying...

You might also wish to re-read the thread....

I have. taking into account all the information given, the police were not stupid given that situation.

you claimed you read the article yet called the police stupid for firing upon a man who was holding a WW II Rifle that was fired recently and fixed with a bayonnet who did not put the weapon down after being ordered to by said police because the person holding it was some "old WWII enthusiast" (he was 22 btw, not what I would call 'old'.)

We have. taking into account all the information given, the police were not stupid given that situation.

you claimed you read the article yet called the police stupid for firing upon a man who was holding a WW II Rifle that was fired recently and fixed with a bayonnet who did not put the weapon down after being ordered to by said police because the person holding it was some "old WWII enthusiast" (he was 22 btw, not what I would call 'old'.)

and reading this thread, majority questions the police's account but no one claimed the police were stupid.

Yeah I know, lol...I was saying that youd already told me that...:hail:

Well, you see, I did...But, IF you had in fact read the thread, you would have in fact saw that I had gotten two responses...

Meaning that your response was just pointless and annoying...You got two responses from the same poster. The first of which you replied to in a manner that showed you missed some facts in the article. Is there a one reply rule in effect all of the sudden?

You got two responses from the same poster. The first of which you replied to in a manner that showed you missed some facts in the article. Is there a one reply rule in effect all of the sudden?

Its not a rule...Still pointless and annoying however, being that it was already brought to my attention....

Yeah I know, lol...I was saying that youd already told me that...:hail:

AH, my mistake. I thought you were saying you "read the article but still felt the police were stupid."

I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back.
Not if he wanted to live.

You got two responses from the same poster. The first of which you replied to in a manner that showed you missed some facts in the article. Is there a one reply rule in effect all of the sudden? he's just trying to say 'point taken'. Pursuing this particular matter may lead to flaming. ;)

Its not a rule...Still pointless and annoying however, being that it was already brought to my attention....
I would refrain from the Pointless and annoying remark. just say you missed that information before we decend into flaming. ;)

he's just trying to say 'point taken'. Pursuing this particular matter may lead to flaming. ;)Good call. :)

he's just trying to say 'point taken'. Pursuing this particular matter may lead to flaming. ;)


I would refrain from the Pointless and annoying remark. just say you missed that information before we decend into flaming. ;)

hMMmm...

I was very tempted too...But a Third 'L' in this name would just get silly...

So, yeah, lol...:p

Well, I wonder if he verbally threatened them at all. I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back. Did they actually shoot him a dozen times? Or is that exaggeration

don't think it was a dozen times (he was taken to the hospital where he died...)

however, the police are responding to someone firing weapons in an alleyway. so they know the person(s) they are looking for is armed. pointing a weapon at the cops (drawn pistols or no) is generally hazzardous to your health without them knowing you're armed... if they do know you're armed...

The AK has a pistol grip, isn't a long weapon, and is automatic. I'm pretty sure he had one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k) (judging from related information) -classic rifle design and bolt action which means I discount your comparison and its basis out of hand.

What does that have to do with any thing? All I'm saying is that uncle Boris was luckier, even though he was probably more of a threat. I'm also saying that the difference made might have been the cloths. This man might still be alive if it weren't for the uniform. That may sound ridiculous out of hand, but think about it.

Four pages of posts and not one person has mentioned perhaps the most important part of the entire article in that the guy was a good tipper?

How many people get to claim they've killed a nazi these days? I'm not sure I could pass up that opportunity either. Talk about street cred!

How many people get to claim they've killed a nazi these days? I'm not sure I could pass up that opportunity either. Talk about street cred!

I broke a Neo-Nazi's Jaw in high school and I've killed terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan(MP wasn't my first MOS), If that count's.

I broke a Neo-Nazi's Jaw in high school and I've killed terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan(MP wasn't my first MOS), If that count's.

No. It doesn't count.

"Terrorists".

Spare me.

You don't think so? Well I suppose that's your, right isn't it. But if you're trying to prod me into defending the US gov't's actions in both places, then you won't succeed. If they aren't terrorists, then why are the one's that I've killed armed with automatic weapons or bomb vests?

Murphy worked part time at Red Mill Burgers on Phinney Ridge, Bray said, and always would tip well when he ate out as a result of his experience in the hospitality trade.

What a silly pointless detail to put in.

lol Maybe the hospitality trade is to fault here?

If they aren't terrorists, then why are the one's that I've killed armed with automatic weapons or bomb vests?

Let's try to follow this logic. You killed them, but they are necessarily a terrorist because they may have had a weapon. If they had killed you, would you be the terrorist?

EDIT: This not to say that I know whether these individuals were terrorists, soldiers, freedom fighters, insurgents, or civilians. They could have been any of those, AFAIK.

Well, they weren't police, they weren't soldiers, and they weren't civilians. Whether they were terrorists or not is just semantics. We were stationed there to help the Iraqi gov't keep order. My unit was targeted and we defended ourselves. Which is not to say that I agree with the war to begin with, because I do not. All I'm saying is that the only reason to attack US troops in Iraq is if you're a terrorist. We're leaving, and if you're going to throw you're life away by attacking us first, then I don't know what you could be but a terrorist.

At least this dead dude was smashed and didn't know what the hell he was doing.

Well, they weren't police, they weren't soldiers, and they weren't civilians. Whether they were terrorists or not is just semantics. We were stationed there to help the Iraqi gov't keep order. My unit was targeted and we defended ourselves. Which is not to say that I agree with the war to begin with, because I do not. All I'm saying is that the only reason to attack US troops in Iraq is if you're a terrorist. We're leaving, and if you're going to throw you're life away by attacking us first, then I don't know what you could be but a terrorist.

At least this dead dude was smashed and didn't know what the hell he was doing.

Help the Iraqi government? You took it down.

Obviously it had to be the alcohol. In which city is it even remotely legal to shoot rifles in an alley for fun? This guy was probably a drink away from blacking out. At least he didn't feel any pain.

I see two most likely scenarios here:

One, blitzked kid forgets that a rifle is a rifle, and when the cops ask you to put it down, you do so immediately or they shoot you. Drunk guy gets shot.

Two, the officers were also history buffs, and were reenacting Russian soldiers.

Help the Iraqi government? You took it down.

I didn't support invading to begin with, but the point is moot. Don't you think it's a little to late to put the old gov't back? Besides, you're arguing for a Genocidal maniac, aren't you?

As far as this dead dude goes, putting two police officers who felt geneuinly threatened by a man with a gun in prison won't help anyone.

Two, the officers were also history buffs, and were reenacting Russian soldiers.

I vote for this one.

I actually own a soviet era uniform and several weapons, so I'll remember not to pull that crap if I go back to Afghanistan.

I vote for this one.

This is actually kind of interesting, in a thead just last night I was making a crack about Mosin Nagant rifles...make a hell of a trunk gun for a patrol officer, and they're well tested against German opposition.

I wonder what the kid had for his German rifle...Mauser K98?

I own a 98k, along with a lot of others. It could have been anything, but I wouldn't say that a 98k is out of the question.

I own a 98k, along with a lot of others. It could have been anything, but I wouldn't say that a 98k is out of the question.

You ever see that RENO!911 episode where they show up and some guy is hosing the squad car down with paintballs, so Junior and one of the other guys pull out and come back in full paint ball gear and take the guy on?

These cops should've pulled out and shown back up in Red Army outfits with Mosins.

Stalingrad '09: This time, its personal.

Well, they weren't police, they weren't soldiers, and they weren't civilians. Whether they were terrorists or not is just semantics.
It's not just semantics. It's a vital distinction to draw when you wish to dehumanise a human being so you can murder them and live with it.

I'm not saying you're the only one guilty of that mental process...it's got to be as old as humanity, and it's used everywhere. I'm just saying. It's more than words.

I didn't support invading to begin with, but the point is moot. Don't you think it's a little to late to put the old gov't back? Besides, you're arguing for a Genocidal maniac, aren't you?

As far as this dead dude goes, putting two police officers who felt geneuinly threatened by a man with a gun in prison won't help anyone.

Yeah, 'cause 600,000 Iraqi civilians isn't tantamount to mass murder.:rolleyes:

Any who, I'm not arguing for Saddam Hussein, which of course we all know had history with Bush Sr., I'm arguing against Coalition involvement.

Like I said, it was a stupid idea to begin with.

I'm not saying you're the only one guilty of that mental process...it's got to be as old as humanity, and it's used everywhere. I'm just saying. It's more than words.
Do think I could live with my self if I considered it murder every time I defended my self? I Didn't go there with the intention of killing people, but it happens when they shoot at you.

It's a soldier's mentality, I guess. I know we're off topic, I'll start another thread, if people keep making posts about it.

When I said "Terrorists", I meant Afghanistan. Iraq was bull. Are you happy now?

He probably was putting it down towards the officers, but the 98k being a long gun (23 inches, my mosin nagant is 26 inches and that thing is almost as tall as me with bayonet) they freaked out and shot him.

I love my 91/30 by the way:)

As far as I know, police officers in the USA are instructed to use deadly force if they have reason to believe that their lives are directly threatened. In this day and age, it's reasonable to believe that when you encounter an individual who carries a fire weapon and is unwilling to let go of said weapon, that individual may actually use said weapon against the officers of the law. He should have known better, but now he's too dead to learn that important lesson. Over here in Europe, it's usually not appreciated when you prance around like a little Aryan pony princess in your Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS uniform. And if you combine that darling outfit with a functional weapon, police forces might shoot you over here as well. And rightly so.

What does that have to do with any thing? All I'm saying is that uncle Boris was luckier, even though he was probably more of a threat. I'm also saying that the difference made might have been the cloths. This man might still be alive if it weren't for the uniform. That may sound ridiculous out of hand, but think about it.

It has everything to do with this. An AK is easier to point (and subsequently fire) than a vintage WW II rifle. And also far more dangerous.

Wow... sad and bizarre indeed.
I also think this was an error of the police. The article clearly states that the kid was a history buff. A delusional one, but still. Killing him wasn't necessary.

Yeah Mossin Nagants are good weapons, like Mausers. I've got a beautiful C96, with one of the few 40 round magazines made.

He probably was putting it down towards the officers, but the 98k being a long gun (23 inches, my mosin nagant is 26 inches and that thing is almost as tall as me with bayonet) they freaked out and shot him.

I love my 91/30 by the way:)

I was thinking of getting one, but I heard all the cheap 7.62x54r is drying up. Have you found that to be the case?

Wow... sad and bizarre indeed.
I also think this was an error of the police. The article clearly states that the kid was a history buff. A delusional one, but still. Killing him wasn't necessary.

If the guy was waving a rifle and refused to put it down...I'm no expert, at all, but I'm guessing 8mm Rifle will punch through a vest at close range. And even if he was just drunk or unbalanced, the officers have no way of knowing if a round is chambered or not.

So... just because he was a history buff, he's allowed to point a gun at the police.

As far as the gun goes, maybe he was holding it to shoot at the hip?

I was thinking of getting one, but I heard all the cheap 7.62x54r is drying up. Have you found that to be the case?

I know they are here...

Drunk and unbalanced people have been known to fire weapons and kill people too, so shooting the kid doesn't seem excessive in my book. Being drunk doesn't mean you don't have exactly the same responsibilities as a sober person. As I said before, he should have known better. Corpses don't have any brain activity, however.

So... just because he was a history buff, he's allowed to point a gun at the police.

As far as the gun goes, maybe he was holding it to shoot at the hip?

Not at all, and I never said he was allowed to do such things. Being a history buff doesn't make you anything but a history buff. Pointing guns at people is a big no-no. What I meant was that, IMO, the police may have overreacted by shooting the kid. Of course, perhaps they didn't have any other choice because the kid wouldn't lower the gun.

If the guy was waving a rifle and refused to put it down...I'm no expert, at all, but I'm guessing 8mm Rifle will punch through a vest at close range. And even if he was just drunk or unbalanced, the officers have no way of knowing if a round is chambered or not.

We tested that on my Dragon Skin vest, those things are awesome.

Not at all, and I never said he was allowed to do such things. Being a history buff doesn't make you anything but a history buff. Pointing guns at people is a big no-no. What I meant was that, IMO, the police may have overreacted by shooting the kid. Of course, perhaps they didn't have any other choice because the kid wouldn't lower the gun.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I know that once point that gun at them, you're probably screwed.

People get shot and killed because they charged towards police officers with knives. If you take that in account, using deadly force against someone with a rifle does seem rather reasonable, right?

People get shot and killed because they charged towards police officers with knives. If you take that in account, using deadly force against someone with a rifle does seem rather reasonable, right?

Absolutely. Even more so in military law enforcement.

Not at all, and I never said he was allowed to do such things. Being a history buff doesn't make you anything but a history buff. Pointing guns at people is a big no-no. What I meant was that, IMO, the police may have overreacted by shooting the kid. Of course, perhaps they didn't have any other choice because the kid wouldn't lower the gun.

if you factor in the fact that the call most likely stated that those people were shooting their rifles in an alley... I wouldn't call it an overreaction. after all, they only shot ONE of the three. And the neighbor said he heard the officers order the weapons down.

We tested that on my Dragon Skin vest, those things are awesome.

I thought a weapon could only pierce Dragon Skin if it was Blessed or Enchanted +1.

Did you find Elven ammunition somewhere?

I meant the Dragon Skin vest was awesome. lol

So... just because he was a history buff, he's allowed to point a gun at the police.
We are assuming he actually pointed the gun at police. A high assumption until the investigation is carried out. Shaking a rifle at police or otherwise aiming it by holding the barrel isn't very dangerous.

As far as the gun goes, maybe he was holding it to shoot at the hip?
A vintage WW II rifle?

A vintage WW II rifle?

Yes. A WWII rifle. I can. Right now. I am.

Let's all be honest. This guys a bit of a prat, and while he didn't deserve to die, it was his own fault. If I dressed as a Nazi and point a gun a american cop, I would expect to get shot. Repeatadly.

I would have shot him when I was an MP, but we have slightly stricter procedures in the Corps.

Yes. A WWII rifle. I can. Right now. I am.

Lets not start holding our vintage WWII rifles at the hip and waving them guys, there's a lady here.

Although if we really want to get Nanatsu all hot and flustered, somebody better whip out their Spanish 93 Mauser...

Lets not start holding our vintage WWII rifles at the hip and waving them guys, there's a lady here.

Although if we really want to get Nanatsu all hot and flustered, somebody better whip out their Spanish 93 Mauser...

This is about the history buff in WWII German garb killed by cops, not about wether weapons get me hot and flustered, Father Baldwin.

A K98 would look pretty vicious to the police I think. I wonder if he wasn't able to understand their instructions because of how inebriated he probably was.

Really a sad thing to have happened. It's too bad the neighbors involved the police.
The whole thing could probably have been de-escalated by a landlord or a lone spokesperson.

Is Mauser time? OOWWWWWWWWWW!!!!! I shot myself in the foot!!!!!

Germans piss me off. I'm Jewish.

Maybe one of the cops was Jewish...

A K98 would look pretty vicious to the police I think. I wonder if he wasn't able to understand their instructions because of how inebriated he probably was.

Really a sad thing to have happened. It's too bad the neighbors involved the police.
The whole thing could probably have been de-escalated by a landlord or a lone spokesperson.

I don't know, if the guy really was drunk and discharging a weapon, I wouldn't want to just send somebody...

But its hard to know what really happened from the article.

Well, at least we know the rifle probably wasn't a "drop gun" like some claim cops carry to plant on somebody in case of a dirty shoot.

Yeah, I'd probably pretty hard to get a 98k for that purpose.

Yes. A WWII rifle. I can. Right now. I am.
While posting. Good job.

Is Mauser time?
Mouser time?
http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v69/coryroo/mouser7.jpg

While posting. Good job.

I've had to handle big, long, heavy things while posting.

I have an ASUS G1, stupid things are needlessly heavy...

While posting. Good job.

I saw the post, walked over to my gun locker, and picked up the gun, put it down, and walked back. I was thinking miller time, not mouser time. And your computer is huge. I an XPS, which is no prize either, though.

A K98 would look pretty vicious to the police I think. I wonder if he wasn't able to understand their instructions because of how inebriated he probably was.

Really a sad thing to have happened. It's too bad the neighbors involved the police.
The whole thing could probably have been de-escalated by a landlord or a lone spokesperson.

sorry, but I wouldn't send a landlord or a lone spokesperson to handle three people shooting rifles in an alleyway.

and I'm glad the neighbor called the cops on three idiots shooting rifles in a city alleyway.

Yep. Dude made bad decision, and now he's dead. Why would you EVER wear a Nazi uniform, though?

Yep. Dude made bad decision, and now he's dead. Why would you EVER wear a Nazi uniform, though?

Its going to revive Tom Cruise's career.


It is.




No, seriously, it will.





What?

Heheheheh. Funniest thing yet said. I'm gonna see that movie, too.

I was thinking of getting one, but I heard all the cheap 7.62x54r is drying up. Have you found that to be the case?

I bought 20 rounds for $17.50. Good rounds though, non-corrosive. I heard that the cheap ammo that everyone is fond of is corrosive and the gun needs to be cleaned after firing them so I haven't really sought any cheap ammo out.

Meh, I clean my guns whether the ammo is corrosive or not. Fighting in the desert taught me that. It's hard to find good ammo where I live anyways.

I had to post this: http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/tampon-stun-gun-1.jpg

It's a tampon shaped stun gun.

Its going to revive Tom Cruise's career.


Tom Cruises career is covered with Excessive Invisible Body Thetans and will take Tens of Millions of Dollars of therapy to remove them.

I bought 20 rounds for $17.50. Good rounds though, non-corrosive. I heard that the cheap ammo that everyone is fond of is corrosive and the gun needs to be cleaned after firing them so I haven't really sought any cheap ammo out.

I also typically clean after coming home from the range, but I can see where it would be a pain in the field.

The milsurp stuff is corrosive, but that can be spritzed out in the field and then cleaned when you get home. For 1,000 rounds for under $200 (used to be even cheaper), it would've been worth it.

Tom Cruises career is covered with Excessive Invisible Body Thetans and will take Tens of Millions of Dollars of therapy to remove them.

Heh, I bet he feels exactly the same way.

Tom Cruises career is covered with Excessive Invisible Body Thetans and will take Tens of Millions of Dollars of therapy to remove them.

I'm sure a juicy contract will help Cruise immensely with his Thetans.

What about Travolta and his theatans or whatever?

What about Travolta and his theatans or whatever?

Dealing with his dead son. Leave the Travolta Thetans alone for now.

Meh, I clean my guns whether the ammo is corrosive or not. Fighting in the desert taught me that. It's hard to find good ammo where I live anyways.

I had to post this: http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/tampon-stun-gun-1.jpg

It's a tampon shaped stun gun.

one wonders where that is supposed to be used...

and thanks for reminding me of this story (http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends2007-01.html).

Dealing with his dead son. Leave the Travolta Thetans alone for now.

I'm just saying he'll need even more therapy than Cruise, now.

And your story is pretty damn funny. Something similar happened to me once...

And your story is pretty damn funny. Something similar happened to me once...

My story?:confused:

Noooooo...... JuNii's.

Noooooo...... JuNii's.

You should either quote JuNii or direct the post to him to avoid confusion. :wink:

Sorry, I though I did. I forgot.

Sorry, I though I did. I forgot.

Story? wha... oh the Darwin one. yeah, I was laughing at that.

Yep. Been there, done that.

Any way I can imagine one could carry a rifle (or other long firearm) makes it unusable unless it is being carried in a position to be fired. They likely shot him for trying to put it down.

I agree.
Expecially with bayonet on those things are unwieldy when opening a door.

I broke a Neo-Nazi's Jaw in high school and I've killed terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan(MP wasn't my first MOS), If that count's.

The neonazi would count only if you killed him. The terrorist don't (btw, some of them could have been "plain" insurgents).

Anyway, I knocked down a neonazi at high school too. First, though, I pulled the waste-bin down on his head. Then punched him in face.
I don't like neonazis.

Hmm, if I was a cop and some guy opened up his door holding a gun, I'd shoot the fucker too.

Well, I wonder if he verbally threatened them at all. I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back. Did they actually shoot him a dozen times? Or is that exaggeration

They kept shooting him to make sure he was down. People don't realize this, but in reality, when you shoot someone, they're not going to fall over from one shot. Adrenalin and other factors mean that if you want someone to go down in a hurry, you can't pull a movie style shoot-em-once thing. You have to shoot them many many times to force them down fast.

This sad and tragic incident was easily avoided if he'd just put his rifle down. Sadly the way cops generally tend to tell people to put their weapons down is to shout as loud as possible while waving their gun at the person, which generally tends to make whomever it is feel threatened and not wanting to give up it up. :(

I blame Call of Duty.

I blame Call of Duty.

And the masses of WW2-games. When will they stop making them?

And the masses of WW2-games. When will they stop making them?

How about when World War II stops being a compelling background to tell fictional stories based on historic fact? So... never...

How about when World War II stops being a compelling background to tell fictional stories based on historic fact? So... never...

Oh god..

The police were just applying Godwin's Law

The police were just applying Godwin's Law Ouch... Bad joke.

The neonazi would count only if you killed him. The terrorist don't (btw, some of them could have been "plain" insurgents).

Anyway, I knocked down a neonazi at high school too. First, though, I pulled the waste-bin down on his head. Then punched him in face.
I don't like neonazis.

So you inflict violence on people who believe differently then you, my that sounds very, neonazi of you.

So you inflict violence on people who believe differently then you, my that sounds very, neonazi of you.

No, actually I inflict violence on people who march around the corridors chanting "put the Jew into the oven".

And I'm proud of fighting back nazis, instead of letting them have their way.

No, actually I inflict violence on people who march around the corridors chanting "put the Jew into the oven".

And I'm proud of fighting back nazis, instead of letting them have their way.

Your not fighting them, your becoming them. If you want to fight neonazis, then support their right to express their views in a peaceful manner.

Your not fighting them, your becoming them. If you want to fight neonazis, then support their right to express their views in a peaceful manner.

Neonazis DON'T have that right.
They don't have that right either legally (as both the italian constitution AND the italian ordinary laws forbid the apology and the public expression of consent towards fascism, nazism, and racism, and also forbid fascist and nazi parties), nor ethically (the idea of genocide should never be tolerated as a political idea on par with others: it's not politics, it's crime).

I'm sorry because I get you've got the best intentions, but political ideas who are intrinsecally anti-democratic cannot be tolerated within a democratic frame: because the nazis/fascists etc are just going to exploit the rights they're given by democracy to destroy democracy itself. See Weimarer Republik to understand what I mean.

Neonazis DON'T have that right.
They don't have that right either legally (as both the italian constitution AND the italian ordinary laws forbid the apology and the public expression of consent towards fascism, nazism, and racism, and also forbid fascist and nazi parties), nor ethically (the idea of genocide should never be tolerated as a political idea on par with others: it's not politics, it's crime).

I'm sorry because I get you've got the best intentions, See Weimarer Republik to understand what I mean.

Well i dont live in Italy so if you could please cite the page in the Italian Constitution that gives you the right to physically attack people who have differing views then you then perhaps id understand your reaction better.

And this "but political ideas who are intrinsecally anti-democratic cannot be tolerated within a democratic frame: because the nazis/fascists etc are just going to exploit the rights they're given by democracy to destroy democracy itself. " is such a load of nonsense that i dont even know where to start. Nazis and fascists have the same rights as anyone else in the US yet Democracy still manages somehow to thrive.


The only thing that makes Italy democratic is the fact that the government topples annually and eventually everyone gets a chance to be President.

Alcohol, weaponry, and pointing bayonets at police don't mix.

I declare this "Death by Stupid."

Well, I wonder if he verbally threatened them at all. I mean, assuming the cops had their weapons drawn on him, its understandable for him to point back. Did they actually shoot him a dozen times? Or is that exaggeration
Where did it say a dozen? Several is three or more, I believe...

lol eugenics.
That word... I do not think it means what you THINK it means.

Yeah, It said he was just some old WWII enthusiast...The police show up and see a rifle and they shoot him...


I just think that sucks...
After he'd been shooting.
While drunk.
In the city.
While drunk.
Answered door with said rifle.
While drunk.
Allegedly pointed rifle with bayonet at police who told him to put it down several times.
While drunk.

It's not for "wearing a cap", it was firing weapons while drunk and then not putting them down and pointing them at cops. I think you wouldn't have a problem since you're a good deal smarter than he was.

Murphy worked part time at Red Mill Burgers on Phinney Ridge, Bray said, and always would tip well when he ate out as a result of his experience in the hospitality trade.

What a silly pointless detail to put in.
It was put in to point out what a swell guy he really was. Good tippers could never be dangerous....

Wow... sad and bizarre indeed.
I also think this was an error of the police. The article clearly states that the kid was a history buff. A delusional one, but still. Killing him wasn't necessary.
They probably did not have his curriculum vitae when they met him...

A K98 would look pretty vicious to the police I think. I wonder if he wasn't able to understand their instructions because of how inebriated he probably was.

Really a sad thing to have happened. It's too bad the neighbors involved the police.
The whole thing could probably have been de-escalated by a landlord or a lone spokesperson.
...walking over and talking to drunks firing weapons in an alley?

Anyway, I knocked down a neonazi at high school too. First, though, I pulled the waste-bin down on his head. Then punched him in face.
I don't like neonazis.

While the wastebin was over his head?

While the wastebin was over his head?

Risottia was a bit dense in high school.

None of this would happen if America didn't have guns.

*runs away*

After he'd been shooting.
While drunk.
In the city.
While drunk.
Answered door with said rifle.
While drunk.
Allegedly pointed rifle with bayonet at police who told him to put it down several times.
While drunk.

It's not for "wearing a cap", it was firing weapons while drunk and then not putting them down and pointing them at cops. I think you wouldn't have a problem since you're a good deal smarter than he was.


Your late friend....IN-CRE-DI-BLY late....

Your late friend....IN-CRE-DI-BLY late....

Her incredibly late friend what?

Her incredibly late friend what?

For Denouncing my stupidity, duh, lol :p

For Denouncing my stupidity, duh, lol :p

Oh, I see. You meant you're then.

Your late friend....IN-CRE-DI-BLY late....

You're.
Perhaps making snippy remarks isn't working too well today?

You're.
And your point is?

There wasnt one...just that its been said already...just dont see why so many people feel the need to jump on it...

Perhaps making snippy remarks isn't working too well today?

Not in this thread anyway, no, lol...I keep telling myself im not gonna look in it again...

but I just cant keep away, lol...

...walking over and talking to drunks firing weapons in an alley?

Hmmph, I can't figure out how to include my quote, but my point was that the police didn't have all of the information; the neighbors probably painted a different picture then reality.

These people were very drunk and they were shooting cans in an alley with vintage weapons. It was dangerous and in poor taste but not threatening.

If they had sent one uniformed officer instead of a SWAT team and given him a talking to, he might have been very apologetic, based on the image of solid citizen which the media reports are making him out to be. It would be difficult to know and would depend a lot on his mental state and level of intoxication.

It's easy to second guess after the fact, I'm just saying there were alternatives.

Hmmph, I can't figure out how to include my quote, but my point was that the police didn't have all of the information; the neighbors probably painted a different picture then reality.

Reality was the picture they painted. Intoxicated men dressed in a variety of WWII era military clothing are firing real weapons in a populated subdivision of Seattle. How do you not call the cops when an incident like that arises?

These people were very drunk and they were shooting cans in an alley with vintage weapons. It was dangerous and in poor taste but not threatening.

It was not dangerous or in poor taste. It was extremely dangerous, extremely stupid and very threatening. Vintage or not, these weapons were designed to kill. And they were being fired by intoxicated men dressed in a variety of WWII era military in a populated subdivision of Seattle. How do you not call the cops when an incident like that arises?

If they had sent one uniformed officer instead of a SWAT team and given him a talking to, he might have been very apologetic, based on the image of solid citizen which the media reports are making him out to be. It would be difficult to know and would depend a lot on his mental state and level of intoxication.

One officer? To a location where real guns are being fired? These men were not cruising the back 40 shooting coyotes, they were in Seattle, shooting god knows what while drunk. I'd fear for my life if I was the single officer sent to deal with three men with rifles.

It's easy to second guess after the fact, I'm just saying there were alternatives.

You are dead right, there were alternatives. Like responsible gun ownership to begin with. Then they would have never been brought out and fired in city limits, the police wouldn't have been called and everybody would have had a happy New Years.

I got shot in the arm by a drunk dude once, they're dangerous people.

Someone needs to nominate this dude for a Darwin award...

Neonazis DON'T have that right.
They don't have that right either legally (as both the italian constitution AND the italian ordinary laws forbid the apology and the public expression of consent towards fascism, nazism, and racism, and also forbid fascist and nazi parties), nor ethically (the idea of genocide should never be tolerated as a political idea on par with others: it's not politics, it's crime).

I'm sorry because I get you've got the best intentions, but political ideas who are intrinsecally anti-democratic cannot be tolerated within a democratic frame: because the nazis/fascists etc are just going to exploit the rights they're given by democracy to destroy democracy itself. See Weimarer Republik to understand what I mean.

Clearly we should round these people up and exterminate.....them........oh, shit.

I got shot in the arm by a drunk dude once, they're dangerous people.

Someone needs to nominate this dude for a Darwin award...

Then stop drinking.