NationStates Jolt Archive

Due to a rather embarrassing incident with a Nobel Prize winner who turned out to not be Japanese any more, Japan is thinking of redoing its dual-nationality law to actually allow people to keep their Japanese citizenship as well as retain another nation’s citizenship due to birth or naturalization (With some restrictions of course). Predictably, the nationalists over here have started going nuts and the ultra-conservative members of the Diet have started grumbling about how dual-nationality will “erode the unity of the nation” (No, I don’t know what that means). For the US (So most of the rest of NSG will care), it neither likes nor dislikes dual-nationality. It doesn’t exactly recognize it, but it doesn’t forbid it either, leaving it in a kind of legal limbo where there are no laws about it, but some vague cautions that it’s not a good idea in case you need to be rescued by an embassy or pay taxes, or face a military draft type of thing.

But what does the wisdom of NSG state? I’m all for the idea of dual-nationality given that in this age where going to another country is just a matter of hours now (And a wee bit of money) and also given that international marriages are much more common, it seems to make sense to me that the old notions of citizenship needing to be limited to just one country, as if a life could be contained in just one, is old and outdated. But what say you?

I agree, there are several nations that i wouldnt mind moving too and having citizenship...

And i dont see why Id have to give up my US Citizenship to do so....

I'm all for it on the basis that I, myself, posses dual nationality. I'm a Spanish national but my father is an American. Of course, I feel more connected to my Spanish roots, but the American side is there regardless.

I'm all for it on the basis that I, myself, posses dual nationality. I'm a Spanish national but my father is an American. Of course, I feel more connected to my Spanish roots, but the American side is there regardless.
Exactly!

Does American Dual-Nationality only apply if your father was American? I seem to remember someone with an African father and an American mother who was not granted dual citizenship...

as a general principle, having more options of places you can easily get into is better than less. you never know when you'll need to take off for greener pastures/places not run by fascists.

I'm a triple national. The reason I am is precisely what the Japanese conservatives dislike about the idea of multiple nationality: I have no loyalty whatsoever to any nation, and have more than one in order to diminish my reliance on any particular country. I think this to be a rational and appropriate response to nationality, given that I would not for the foreseeable future be able to operate with no nationality at all.

I'm a triple national

awesome. i need to figure out a way to arrange that for my future possible child.

Does American Dual-Nationality only apply if your father was American? I seem to remember someone with an African father and an American mother who was not granted dual citizenship...

obama had dual, possibly triple citizenship.

Due to a rather embarrassing incident with a Nobel Prize winner who turned out to not be Japanese any more, Japan is thinking of redoing its dual-nationality law to actually allow people to keep their Japanese citizenship as well as retain another nation’s citizenship due to birth or naturalization (With some restrictions of course). Predictably, the nationalists over here have started going nuts and the ultra-conservative members of the Diet have started grumbling about how dual-nationality will “erode the unity of the nation” (No, I don’t know what that means). For the US (So most of the rest of NSG will care), it neither likes nor dislikes dual-nationality. It doesn’t exactly recognize it, but it doesn’t forbid it either, leaving it in a kind of legal limbo where there are no laws about it, but some vague cautions that it’s not a good idea in case you need to be rescued by an embassy or pay taxes, or face a military draft type of thing.

But what does the wisdom of NSG state? I’m all for the idea of dual-nationality given that in this age where going to another country is just a matter of hours now (And a wee bit of money) and also given that international marriages are much more common, it seems to make sense to me that the old notions of citizenship needing to be limited to just one country, as if a life could be contained in just one, is old and outdated. But what say you?
Agreed. The notion that you have to be loyal to a specific region bounded by arguably arbitrary lines is questionable at best, and the more things blur the lines, the better. It's time to pull the heads of nationalistic people out of the sand.

I've had the option of dual nationality (Australian/American) for some time now. I haven't taken it because I don't feel I can be truly loyal to two nations at the same time. As much as I love living in Australia, and though I have a deep respect for it's laws and institutions, my ultimate loyalty (after myself and my family) is to the United States.

I'm a triple national.

*snip*

Me too.

I really can't see what the problem is with having more than one nationality.

I wonder what'll happen if EU citizenship ever becomes a concrete reality. Citizen of 27 countries! :eek:

obama had dual, possibly triple citizenship.

Strange, maybe it depends on the nation... I know when I think about it, 2 women who had an American mother and were not citizens.

Agreed. The notion that you have to be loyal to a specific region bounded by arguably arbitrary lines is questionable at best, and the more things blur the lines, the better. It's time to pull the heads of nationalistic people out of the sand.

I do disagree in one thing. In my case, and my case alone, I feel prouder of the fact that I was born and raised in Spain. My American side isn't denied, but I feel loyalty towards Spain. I can't say the same thing about the US.

Of course, I enjoy, in a sense, the best of both worlds. I can come in and out of both countries without problem.

Does American Dual-Nationality only apply if your father was American? I seem to remember someone with an African father and an American mother who was not granted dual citizenship...

Doesn't matter because the US laws apply equally to both sexes. Mother or Father could be a citizen and the children qualify.

Doesn't matter because the US laws apply equally to both sexes. Mother or Father could be a citizen and the children qualify.

What about country?

I do disagree in one thing. In my case, and my case alone, I feel prouder of the fact that I was born and raised in Spain. My American side isn't denied, but I feel loyalty towards Spain. I can't say the same thing about the US.

Of course, I enjoy, in a sense, the best of both worlds. I can come in and out of both countries without problem.
Ok, so even within nationalist loyalty this kind of flexibility is beneficial. By the way, I was referring more so to the notion of expecting people to have loyalty to when people will feel loyalty, or want to be loyal... that's different.

Ok, so even within nationalist loyalty this kind of flexibility is beneficial. By the way, I was referring more so to the notion of expecting people to have loyalty to when people will feel loyalty, or want to be loyal... that's different.

In regards to the OP, I don't think that's the main problem.

In regards to the OP, I don't think that's the main problem.
Assuming OP means original poster or whatever, even if that wasn't the main problem, reference was made to how part of the opposition to this is from people who believe in loyalty to one's country. So I figured I'd comment on that.

Me too.

I really can't see what the problem is with having more than one nationality.
Some arguments include:

Taxation.
Voting rights.
Military service.
Social security benefits.

These are factors that can complicate things. In addition to the loyalty-part that some feel are relevant, and the political participation thingie.

awesome. i need to figure out a way to arrange that for my future possible child.

That's simple. You have my babies, and they belong to a First Nation, to Canada, and to the US. Voila!

Some arguments include:

Taxation.
Simple enough, tax only that income made in the respective country.

Voting rights.
I honestly don't see why though should be a problem.

Military service.
This could be an issue if both countries went to war with each other, but other than that.

Social security benefits.
Should be applied in the country where one plans to retire.

political participation thingie.
This one is a bit more of an issue, but one where I think a nation is right to require that national lawmakers and other national positions (president and so on) should hold the citizenship of only that nation.

As I was born in Moscow (Pre-fall of the Soviet Union), I could easily get Russian citizenship by filling out some forms and paying some fees at an embassy. Not something I'd even consider doing until my 28th birthday though, as they have compulsory military service.

Getting Israeli citizenship wouldn't be too difficult for me either, but that would require me immigrating. And they definitely have the draft as well. Though, I'd probably rather join the Israeli army than the Russian one.... if I learned Hebrew first.

What about country?

Doesnt matter what country one of the parents comes from. As long as one is American its all good. As you probably already realize even if both parents are not citizens and have their kid in the US he/she is a citizen. My wifes sister flew to America for a visit and stayed 6 months. Well she was pregnant and had the kid here. That child is a US citizen even though the kid will live in Morocco.

This could be an issue if both countries went to war with each other, but other than that.

What if both require you to sign up at 18 for a few years ?

What if both require you to sign up at 18 for a few years ?

Flip a coin? ;)

Flip a coin? ;)

For some reason I am not convinced that would satisfy the army you do not sign up with. Might be branded a no-show, or even deserter.

What if both require you to sign up at 18 for a few years ?
Which country do you live in though?

I am currently a citizen both of the United States and of Denmark. I feel a stronger connection to my American side, having grown up here, but I'm still a Dane, as well. I'm trying to get a bit more in touch with that nationality, especially re-learning the language (I could speak it quite well as a child, not so much anymore) and might even attend graduate school in Copenhagen or in Aarhus.

awesome. i need to figure out a way to arrange that for my future possible child.

Not so difficult.

1.Have a german wife. German citizenship goes with the "right of blood".
2.Have the baby born on a british airplane (counts as "within UK territory", hence subject of UK)
3.Have the baby born on a british airplane... that's flying over USA territory (counts as "within USA territory", hence US citizen).

Plus your own citizenship. Makes 4. And if your wife is jew, she (and her son) can also apply for Israeli citizenship!

My family has some interesting examples.

My brother, a dual UK-US citizen, is probably the most boring example. The Americans did make up give up his UK passport when he became involved in a project that had tangential US national security implications, but this doesn't strip him of his UK citizenship, only the passport. He could theoretically re-apply for a UK passport in the future.


It's my wife's family that get entertaining. My father in law is an Australia-resident ethnic Russian who was born in the inter-war Latvian republic; while his Latvian citizenship lapsed when Latvia was annexed by the Soviet Union, the revived Latvian republic restored the citizenship of anyone who'd previously been a citizen of the inter-war republic and all of their descendents. This is irrespective of ability to speak Latvian. The irony is that were my father in law still living in Latvia, as ethnic Russian non-Latvian speaker, he'd be ineligible for citizenship, but because he was a refugee, he can get that citizenship whenever he wants to. The trick is, the Latvians make you give up your previous passport. We seriously looked at getting my wife a Latvian - and hence EU - passport when we moved back to the UK, so we wouldn't have to pay for a spouse visa for her, but we decided that keeping an Australian passport was better for her than switching to the passport of a country she'd never visited and felt no real ties to just for the right to work in the EU without a visa.

My mother in law is even more complicated. Her father was White Russian minor nobility who was born on a British naval vessel in the immediate wake of the Royal Navy's evacuation of the Dowager Empress of Russia (and other Whites) from the Crimea in 1919. The family then moved to Yugoslavia/Serbia, where my mother in law was born. The entire family was then deported by Tito's government in cattle cars to Hungary after WWII, where my (now-deceased) grandfather in law was made the Russian Orthodox priest in Budapest, and the entire family were forced to take Soviet citizenship (despite being ethnic Russian, none of the family still living at this point were actually born in the USSR). Most of the family, except one of my wife's uncles (who had already married a Hungarian woman and taken Hungarian citizenship), subsequently moved to Australia after my mother in law married my father in law, and took Australian citizenship as soon as was possible, though they continued to speak Russian at home.

My wife was the first member of the family to be born in Australia. Because I married her, I was able to take out Australian residency, and would be eligible for citizenship in the next year or two. Because she married me, she's been able to take out UK residency, and is eligible for citizenship in the next year or two. Both countries would allow us to have dual nationality. My wife is also eligible for at least Latvian nationality. She may also be eligible for a UK work permit quite separately from being married to me as a grandparent was born on a British naval vessel; UK immigration laws are quite specific that this makes her eligible for a grandparent work visa even though her grandfather was never a UK citizen.

We've worked out that any children of ours would be eligible to play football for the following nations:

England (my place of birth)
Australia (her place of birth)
Scotland (my mother's place of birth)
Latvia (her father's place of birth)
Serbia (her mother's place of birth)
And possibly Russia (depending on legal status of mother's former Soviet citizenship, and FIFA regulations thereon).

Doesnt matter what country one of the parents comes from. As long as one is American its all good. As you probably already realize even if both parents are not citizens and have their kid in the US he/she is a citizen. My wifes sister flew to America for a visit and stayed 6 months. Well she was pregnant and had the kid here. That child is a US citizen even though the kid will live in Morocco.

So basically, either these people I know are stupid, or were being lied to?

I am currently a citizen both of the United States and of Denmark. I feel a stronger connection to my American side, having grown up here, but I'm still a Dane, as well. I'm trying to get a bit more in touch with that nationality, especially re-learning the language (I could speak it quite well as a child, not so much anymore) and might even attend graduate school in Copenhagen or in Aarhus.

The Danish anthem has some great poetry. Looks straight from a fantasy RPG. :D

("There is a lovely land...")

I'm a fan of it. I'm currently an American citizen and have the Indian equivalent to dual citizenship (http://www.immihelp.com/nri/overseascitizenshipindia/), which basically allows me all the rights of an Indian citizen, except the right to vote and the right to run for office. That's slightly irritating, of course, but I think the Indian alternative poses somewhat of a middle-ground, if one where a person is not allowed to vote.

Does American Dual-Nationality only apply if your father was American? I seem to remember someone with an African father and an American mother who was not granted dual citizenship...

The African father that is technically British as well.

Dual nationality can be confusing, I can see it giving the government headaches any census they take. I mean do you bother to to track down lets say the 100,000 legally half Country A people who are part country B but reside in country C?

Still, I do think it should be an option.

That's simple. You have my babies, and they belong to a First Nation, to Canada, and to the US. Voila!

good idea, though i was hoping for some wider geographic range as well. just to be safe. is there anyway we could do this while in fiji, for example?

Due to the wonders of being born in Northern Ireland I get dual British-Irish nationality. Go me.

So basically, either these people I know are stupid, or were being lied to?

Not necessarily. You said they didn't have dual citizenship, not that they couldn't have US citizenship. It might simply be that their father's African country of origin doesn't permit its citizens to hold dual citizenship and they had to make a choice between the two.

I wonder what'll happen if EU citizenship ever becomes a concrete reality. Citizen of 27 countries! :eek:

I want that to happen, just to wave it in the face of people with double or triple nationality.

Not so difficult.

1.Have a german wife. German citizenship goes with the "right of blood".
2.Have the baby born on a british airplane (counts as "within UK territory", hence subject of UK)
3.Have the baby born on a british airplane... that's flying over USA territory (counts as "within USA territory", hence US citizen).

Plus your own citizenship. Makes 4. And if your wife is jew, she (and her son) can also apply for Israeli citizenship!

However, are there any German jews left? :(

However, are there any German jews left? :(

There might be. *nod*

For some reason I am not convinced that would satisfy the army you do not sign up with. Might be branded a no-show, or even deserter.

Or get your nationality of that country revoked. Foreign military service might do that to you.

I'm all for it on the basis that I, myself, posses dual nationality. I'm a Spanish national but my father is an American. Of course, I feel more connected to my Spanish roots, but the American side is there regardless.

Don't think it works that way. to be considered an American citizen, it takes more than "My parent is an American". I remember looking it up and you have to, I think, live for a set length of time in America before your 18th birthday. or something like that.

EDIT: here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Through_birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen). So there might be a chance you are a US Citizen.
From Wiki.
For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:[4]

One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
A minimum of 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.
A person's record of birth abroad, if registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, is proof of his or her citizenship. Such a person may also apply for a passport or a Certificate of Citizenship to have a record of his or her citizenship. Such documentation is often useful to prove citizenship in lieu of the availability of an American birth certificate.

Different rules apply for persons born abroad to one U.S. citizen before November 14, 1986. United States law on this subject changed multiple times throughout the twentieth century, and the law as it existed at the time of the individual's birth.

Don't think it works that way. to be considered an American citizen, it takes more than "My parent is an American". I remember looking it up and you have to, I think, live for a set length of time in America before your 18th birthday. or something like that.

EDIT: here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Through_birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen). So there might be a chance you are a US Citizen.
From Wiki.

Well, I have the passport to prove it and my birth certificate also states it. I have lived in US soil in more than one ocassion, the last being in Lansing MI, for 2 years. Before that, I studied in Puerto Rico (US territory) for my sophomore year of high school. My brother, who has never lived in the US, also has the passport and citizenship on account of our father being an American national. Neither the US nor the Spanish governments (both me and my mom work for the Spanish government) have had any problems with this dual nationality.

Or get your nationality of that country revoked. Foreign military service might do that to you.

I know the Swiss will throw you in jail for serving in a foreign military.

I know the Swiss will throw you in jail for serving in a foreign military.

Does that include the one of the Vatican? :p

Does that include the one of the Vatican? :p

Actually, that's the one exception allowed by Swiss law.

The Papal Swiss Guard is legally regarded as a security service rather than a military unit, as opposed to the Order of Malta for example.

I had a friend that got drafted into the Brazilian Army because of dual nationality.

I my self am a Bangladeshi & Australian citizen. I can vote in both nations. And get help from Australian Foreign Ministry, this does help in case I am lost in another nations etc.

And what about Bangladesh?

Nah, they don't help if I get lost

Are there ANY perks?

Are there ANY perks?

Easier movement between the two, both for vacation and moving there.

I'm planning to retain dual-citizenship to allow me to travel between South Africa and Australia without a visa. Both governments advise their embassies are unable to assist if you are in a country where you hold citizenship and get into trouble

I'm planning to retain dual-citizenship to allow me to travel between South Africa and Australia without a visa. Both governments advise their embassies are unable to assist if you are in a country where you hold citizenship and get into trouble

I'm sure they do, for example you get busted by the police and you have to like 20 years of jail. I am sure they would try to help you.

dual with US and israel.