NationStates Jolt Archive

Cue usual reaction.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7808825.stm)

Gaza facing 'critical emergency'

The "critical emergency" comes despite an increase in humanitarian shipments, said Maxwell Gaylard, the UN's chief aid co-ordinator for the territory.

The UN believes that at least 100 of some 400 Palestinians killed by Israeli action so far were civilians.

Israel said Gazans were continuing to receive sufficient food and medicines.

In a statement, the Israeli foreign ministry said that since the beginning of the campaign, 335 truckloads of humanitarian aid (7,800 tonnes) had been delivered into Gaza.

It said it was working with international organisations in Gaza as well as various governments "in order to assess the humanitarian needs... and make the necessary response".

All reports indicate that there are sufficient medicine and food in Gaza, the statement read.

The UN's Maxwell Gaylard said: "It is true supplies have been going into the Strip, in fact possibly more than in previous weeks, but at the same time there are critical gaps."

The leading international charity, Oxfam, which has a programme in Gaza, warned the situation "is getting worse by the day", with clean water, fuel and food in short supply.

It said hospitals were overwhelmed with casualties, and reported that raw sewage was pouring into the streets in some areas.

Israel tightened its control of what gets in and out of the crowded coastal Strip after Hamas, the elected power, seized control of the area from rival Fatah forces 18 months ago.

Since then the UN says there has been a significant deterioration in infrastructure and basic services, with 80% of the 1.4m population unable to support themselves.

'Tacit backing'

Five Palestinians, including three children, have been killed in the latest Israeli air attacks. The Israel Defense Forces have attacked more than 500 Hamas targets in Gaza since the campaign began.

To date, some 2,000 Palestinians have been wounded, according to the UN.

Palestinian militants continued to fire on Israel, launching more than 60 missiles in 24 hours. Four people were injured in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon.

Four Israelis have died in the rocket attacks Israel is trying to prevent.

The US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, called for a "durable and sustainable" ceasefire - one which should "not allow a re-establishment of the status quo ante, where Hamas can continue to launch rockets out of Gaza".

The BBC's Kim Ghattas in Washington says it is unclear what Ms Rice means by "sustainable ceasefire" or how it can be attained.

But it is a position that is widely interpreted as tacit backing by Washington for Israel to continue its military operation and try to weaken Hamas as much as possible, our correspondent says.

Meanwhile, thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank joined demonstrations on Friday after a call from Hamas for a "day of wrath" against the Israeli attacks on Gaza.

Correspondents say protesters were directing their anger not just at Israel but at Arab governments and their own leaders for their failure to stop the offensive.

Huge crowds gathered in Ramallah, while in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem, youths threw stones at security forces, who fired tear gas.

Page last updated at 18:39 GMT, Friday, 2 January 2009
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Gaza facing 'critical emergency'

The UN an estimates that at least 2,000 Palestinians have been wounded
The UN has warned that Palestinians in Gaza are facing a serious health and food crisis, as Israeli air strikes continued for a seventh day.

The "critical emergency" comes despite an increase in humanitarian shipments, said Maxwell Gaylard, the UN's chief aid co-ordinator for the territory.

The UN believes that at least 100 of some 400 Palestinians killed by Israeli action so far were civilians.

Israel said Gazans were continuing to receive sufficient food and medicines.

In a statement, the Israeli foreign ministry said that since the beginning of the campaign, 335 truckloads of humanitarian aid (7,800 tonnes) had been delivered into Gaza.

It said it was working with international organisations in Gaza as well as various governments "in order to assess the humanitarian needs... and make the necessary response".




Map: Gaza and Israel violence
Aid worker diary: Part five
Gaza voices: Family fears
All reports indicate that there are sufficient medicine and food in Gaza, the statement read.

The UN's Maxwell Gaylard said: "It is true supplies have been going into the Strip, in fact possibly more than in previous weeks, but at the same time there are critical gaps."

The leading international charity, Oxfam, which has a programme in Gaza, warned the situation "is getting worse by the day", with clean water, fuel and food in short supply.

It said hospitals were overwhelmed with casualties, and reported that raw sewage was pouring into the streets in some areas.

Israel tightened its control of what gets in and out of the crowded coastal Strip after Hamas, the elected power, seized control of the area from rival Fatah forces 18 months ago.

Since then the UN says there has been a significant deterioration in infrastructure and basic services, with 80% of the 1.4m population unable to support themselves.

'Tacit backing'

Five Palestinians, including three children, have been killed in the latest Israeli air attacks. The Israel Defense Forces have attacked more than 500 Hamas targets in Gaza since the campaign began.

ROCKET ATTACKS FROM GAZA
Since the start of Israel's operations in Gaza, Israeli sources say Palestinian militants have fired the following:

27 December 2008: 61 rockets, 33 mortar shells
28 December: 14 rockets, 16 mortar shells
29 December: 57 rockets, 15 mortar shells
30 December: 42 rockets, 6 mortar shells
31 December: 43 rockets, 25 mortar shells
Source: Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Israel

To date, some 2,000 Palestinians have been wounded, according to the UN.

Palestinian militants continued to fire on Israel, launching more than 60 missiles in 24 hours. Four people were injured in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon.

Four Israelis have died in the rocket attacks Israel is trying to prevent.

The US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, called for a "durable and sustainable" ceasefire - one which should "not allow a re-establishment of the status quo ante, where Hamas can continue to launch rockets out of Gaza".

The BBC's Kim Ghattas in Washington says it is unclear what Ms Rice means by "sustainable ceasefire" or how it can be attained.

But it is a position that is widely interpreted as tacit backing by Washington for Israel to continue its military operation and try to weaken Hamas as much as possible, our correspondent says.

Meanwhile, thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank joined demonstrations on Friday after a call from Hamas for a "day of wrath" against the Israeli attacks on Gaza.

Correspondents say protesters were directing their anger not just at Israel but at Arab governments and their own leaders for their failure to stop the offensive.

Huge crowds gathered in Ramallah, while in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem, youths threw stones at security forces, who fired tear gas.

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Palestinian youths clash with Israeli security forces in East Jerusalem

Demonstrations were also held across the Middle East and in several Asian countries, as well as in Australia and Kenya.

The protests were called after an Israeli air strike hit the home of Nizar Rayan, a firebrand leader of Hamas who refused to go into hiding, killing him and members of his family.

In a separate development, about 100 foreign passport holders - mainly women married to Palestinians, and their children - were allowed by Israel to leave Gaza. Correspondents say it is being seen as a possible last move before Israeli tanks roll in.

BBC Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen says a week of bombardment has not been able stop the rocket fire, and Israel now has to decide whether to send in ground troops.

Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a Supreme Court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory.

Now why should Israel make a large group people suffer for the crimes of a few again? I mean, there are international law against this for a reason.

Also A I te only one who got achuckle out of Maxwell Gaylard'sname?

Wait, so if you bomb a place there's a chance of significant deterioration of the infrastucture!?

I don't get Hamas. I really don't. It's not as if they didn't know what was going to happen if they didn't stop firing the rockets. It's not as if they didn't know that the international community wasn't going to do anything more than offer a few token protests. I can vaguely understand their desire for martyrdom but why do they have to make martyrs of the people who aren't really into fireworks? That's just mean, that is..

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for a group of people who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for those who support them? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for the Palestinians who harbor and support Hamas?

Well, I do not.

It is a shame that some innocent people, especially children, are killed but that is the fault of Hamas and not Israel. Hamas are a bunch of cowards who fire rockets on civilian targets in Israel and hide among civilian Palestinians. They are fully responsible for the death of their own people.

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for a group of people who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for those who support them? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for the Palestinians who harbor and support Hamas?

Well, I do not.

It is a shame that some innocent people, especially children, are killed but that is the fault of Hamas and not Israel. Hamas are a bunch of cowards who fire rockets on civilian targets in Israel and hide among civilian Palestinians. They are fully responsible for the death of their own people.

You see, I kinda can feel sorry for those Palestinians who harbour and support Hamas. For one it's concieveable that they don't have too much of a choice about and two, it must be awfully depressing knowing deep down that Hamas ain't never going to win. And they're not just losing the conventional war but the propaganda war too. I mean they're so fucked that they've managed to make and incredibly cuntish and trigger-happy occupier almost look good! They seem intent on justifying the blockade and bombardment of the Gaza Strip! It's quite pathetic..

Israelis are a bunch of cowards who use airplanes to bomb targets and don't care that they have killed people unrelated to what they were trying to accomplish.

Hamas is using innocent palestinians as human shields. What did you expect to happen, random comedy?

Israelis are using Palestinians as human shields too.

Kind of overkill to use airstrikes in response to rocket attacks no?

why can't we all just get along?

You don't hear much about the West Bank anymore.. How are things there?

Idk....I just cant bring myself to care anymore...Im sick of the whole damn region and all the people....

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for a group of people who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for those who support them? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for the Palestinians who harbor and support Hamas?

Well, I do not.

It is a shame that some innocent people, especially children, are killed but that is the fault of Hamas and not Israel. Hamas are a bunch of cowards who fire rockets on civilian targets in Israel and hide among civilian Palestinians. They are fully responsible for the death of their own people.
I suppose you think that the Neighborhoods who "harbor and support" gangs should not recieve food, water, or medicine? That sounds like what you're saying. And shouldn't Israel follow international law anyway? You know, no collective punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment)?

Also, the current approach just breeds more resentment towards Israel, and lo and behold, that makes more extremists. That makes this whole approach self-defeating

You don't hear much about the West Bank anymore.. How are things there?

burning quietly?

And shouldn't Israel follow international law anyway?

If no one else does, why should they? When has International Law ever stopped anyone, ever? or even been enforced?

Here's hoping the killing doesn't stop until one side or the other, preferably both, are gone.

If no one else does, why should they? When has International Law ever stopped anyone, ever? or even been enforced?

Then i guess we haven't moved on from the era of imperialism, nationalism, and arms races. Why does the UN exist again? Whats this about the US spreading freedom and peace everywhere? A bunch of bullshit.

You don't hear much about the West Bank anymore.. How are things there?

Quieter, as it's not run by terrorists.

You see, I kinda can feel sorry for those Palestinians who harbour and support Hamas.

Hey, they voted for Hamas. They got what they wanted.

Hey, they voted for Hamas. They got what they wanted.

Right, because rampant corruption, nepotism and Jack Shit Done with Fatah in charge was so much preferable to Hamas actually providing infrastructure and social services like hospitals and education.

No, they voted for Hamas because They Hate Freedom™

:rolleyes:

Then i guess we haven't moved on from the era of imperialism, nationalism, and arms races. Why does the UN exist again? Whats this about the US spreading freedom and peace everywhere? A bunch of bullshit.

Well I coulda told you that...Is the sky still blue?...Duh...

Israelis are a bunch of cowards who use airplanes to bomb targets and don't care that they have killed people unrelated to what they were trying to accomplish.

Well, I guess you would prefer the Israelis use stick and stones. :eek2: You will always have collateral damage in a war. The problem of collateral damage is exacerbated when the enemy hides among the civilian population.

I guess the Palestinians really care that they have killed people unrelated to what they are trying to accomplish when they lob missiles into Israel. Oh...wait...it is what they are trying to accomplish, the elimination of all Jews including women, children, and old men. :mad:

Hey, they voted for Hamas. They got what they wanted.

Yes because Hamas received 100% of the 06 legislative election votes instead of 44.45%.

Oh wait...

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for a group of people who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth?

No, what I would like is a world where people like you didn't generalize and stereotype in order to make yourselves feel better about the death of innocents...

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for those who support them?

...and where you didn't see the need to blame the victim (utterly without basis.))

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for the Palestinians who harbor and support Hamas?

I want you to feel sorry for yourself.

It is a shame that some innocent people, especially children, are killed but that is the fault of Hamas and not Israel. Hamas are a bunch of cowards who fire rockets on civilian targets in Israel and hide among civilian Palestinians. They are fully responsible for the death of their own people.

"Wah. They made us bomb civilians. It's their fault!"

That's all I'm getting here from you. The bullshit he-man chest-pounding about "cowardice" is not compelling any more than your blind, absurd assertion that the victims are indeed responsible for the actions of their killers.

You are IIRC one of those so-called conservatives who believe in personal responsibility, yet you've attributed the socialist hive mind (such that all Palestinians are now "terrorist supporters" apparently) and so ass-backwardly pointed the blame on anyone who ISN'T responsible that I have to question whether you are even familiar with the concept.

Hey, they voted for Hamas. They got what they wanted.

Hamas got less than 45% of the vote.

Well, I guess you would prefer the Israelis use stick and stones. :eek2: You will always have collateral damage in a war. The problem of collateral damage is exacerbated when the enemy hides among the civilian population.

I guess the Palestinians really care that they have killed people unrelated to what they are trying to accomplish when they lob missiles into Israel. Oh...wait...it is what they are trying to accomplish, the elimination of all Jews including women, children, and old men. :mad:

It's hard to have collateral damage if you're aiming to wipe your enemy out.

Idk....I just cant bring myself to care anymore...Im sick of the whole damn region and all the people....

A possible answer to your sickness?

http://philip9876.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nuclear-explosion.jpg

*nuke pic*

Id like to see them get one of those over here...Something tells me they just dont have that capability...

And shouldn't Israel follow international law anyway?

And shouldn't Hamas follow international law also by not attacking a sovereign nation?

Why does the UN exist STILL?

Corrected. That's a damn good question because they have never done anything constructive to help resolve this problem. :mad:

And shouldn't Hamas follow international law also by not attacking a sovereign nation?

Hamas is breaking international law. Thats undiniable. However, Israel has to follow it regardless (Someone give the ICC teeth, please)

Corrected. That's a damn good question because they have never done anything constructive to help resolve this problem. :mad:

It's difficult to do anything when your resolutions keeps getting vetoed by one of the members of the security council.

It's difficult to do anything when your resolutions keeps getting vetoed by one of the members of the security council.

True, thats cause the SC members, with the possible exception of the US and UK hate eachother's guts....

On the other hand however...Im glad its there, cause without it Im pretty sure my country'd be fucked...Or leave it...probably both...

And Celtlund, mind responding to the rest of my first response?

Hamas is using innocent palestinians as human shields. What did you expect to happen, random comedy?

Yes, of course, when bombs explode in residential areas it is HAMAS using human shields. Obviously.

Did you also know that civilian deaths in suicide bombings were the real targets using human shields?

Yes, of course, when bombs explode in residential areas it is HAMAS using human shields. Obviously.

Did you also know that civilian deaths in suicide bombings were the real targets using human shields?

Well, I dont think that its the actual deaths themselves...its Hamas using them as propaganda against Israel...They're using the Civilians as a Shield to justify their actions...

Im not saying Israel doesnt do the same thing...But, they are using them...

*yawn*

They are going to keep killing each other until one side yields. How is this news?

*yawn*

They are going to keep killing each other until one side yields. How is this news?

Yeah, Thats the way I feel about it...But...I couldnt resist injecting some Cynicism in everyone's comments, lol...

Wait, so if you bomb a place there's a chance of significant deterioration of the infrastucture!?
Unless neutron bombs are used, yes.

I don't get Hamas. I really don't. It's not as if they didn't know what was going to happen if they didn't stop firing the rockets. It's not as if they didn't know that the international community wasn't going to do anything more than offer a few token protests. I can vaguely understand their desire for martyrdom but why do they have to make martyrs of the people who aren't really into fireworks? That's just mean, that is..

I don't get Israel. I really don't. It's not as if they didn't know what was going to happen if they didn't stop oppressing the palestinians.

...

Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.

I really wish that BOTH palestinian and israeli fanatics do end up in Hell asap... where they will be FORCED to share the same place.

I don't get Israel. I really don't. It's not as if they didn't know what was going to happen if they didn't stop oppressing the palestinians.

...

Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.

I really wish that BOTH palestinian and israeli fanatics do end up in Hell asap... where they will be FORCED to share the same place.

^^^Agreed

Quieter, as it's not run by terrorists.

It is, but their leader has been bought off. He sits on his ass while the settlements go up around East Jerusalem.

Unless neutron bombs are used, yes.



I don't get Israel. I really don't. It's not as if they didn't know what was going to happen if they didn't stop oppressing the palestinians.

...

Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.

I really wish that BOTH palestinian and israeli fanatics do end up in Hell asap... where they will be FORCED to share the same place.

I guess.. The thing is the Israeli government does well by being complete cunts. As long as they can afford to oppress the Palestinians what's a few innocent lives lost to a few Palestinian rockets compared to all that nice land that they're stealing? Hamas on the other hand has no such luxury. Short of aquiring nukes or the international community finally agreeing that enough is enough they can't possibly win.

Short of aquiring nukes or the international community finally agreeing that enough is enough they can't possibly win.

With the first having a probability of about 2*10^(-6) and the second about 1*10^(-6).

Let's face it, no one will ever take steps like sending an international interposition force in the area without the green light from Israel. Which is a shame.

Anyway, if Germany and French have become best pals, there's the chance even israeli and palestinians will stop killing each other someday.

Anyway, if Germany and French have become best pals, there's the chance even israeli and palestinians will stop killing each other someday.

Lets just hope they dont go through the same steps....

With the first having a probability of about 2*10^(-6) and the second about 1*10^(-6).

Let's face it, no one will ever take steps like sending an international interposition force in the area without the green light from Israel. Which is a shame.

Even then, the most popular solution calls for "Hamas and the Palestinians surrender unconditionally, bend over, pull down their pants and take it up the ass like good kaffirs while Israelis continue to expand the settlements unchecked."

Even then, the most popular solution calls for "Hamas and the Palestinians surrender unconditionally, bend over, pull down their pants and take it up the ass like good kaffirs while Israelis continue to expand the settlements unchecked."

You say that like its a bad thing :rolleyes:

Even then, the most popular solution calls for "Hamas and the Palestinians surrender unconditionally, bend over, pull down their pants and take it up the ass like good kaffirs while Israelis continue to expand the settlements unchecked."

Thats what it basically comes down to. What the Palestinians should do is live in peace. There best way is to out produce the Israeli's with kids. In a voting democracy that peace should bring Palestinians within a Jewish state should get voting power and change policies. Look at what Mexicans are doing in the US. Same principle. Out produce then out vote.

Thats what it basically comes down to. What the Palestinians should do is live in peace. There best way is to out produce the Israeli's with kids. In a voting democracy that peace should bring Palestinians within a Jewish state should get voting power and change policies. Look at what Mexicans are doing in the US. Same principle. Out produce then out vote.

While your theory would probably work...

I dont think Mexicans are doing it in the US as much as you'd think...the majority of them dont vote...and even if they did, they'd still be a minority...

While your theory would probably work...

I dont think Mexicans are doing it in the US as much as you'd think...the majority of them dont vote...and even if they did, they'd still be a minority...

Not in many places of California for example. Look at Los Angeles proper.

Lets just hope they dont go through the same steps....
They are. And one day Israel will set up concentration camps, too.

Not in many places of California for example. Look at Los Angeles proper.

Ah yes, I hadnt considered that...I had my mind on my local voting populace rather than the country as a whole I suppose....

Thats what it basically comes down to. What the Palestinians should do is live in peace. There best way is to out produce the Israeli's with kids. In a voting democracy that peace should bring Palestinians within a Jewish state should get voting power and change policies. Look at what Mexicans are doing in the US. Same principle. Out produce then out vote.

Or look at Northern Ireland where the exact same "out breed" them mentality was defeated by gerrymandering the electoral ares ensuring the dominance of the minority, despite the 'democratic' process.

You're assuming the Israelis actually want Palestinians in their state.

Or look at Northern Ireland where the exact same "out breed" them mentality was defeated by gerrymandering the electoral ares ensuring the dominance of the minority, despite the 'democratic' process.

You're assuming the Israelis actually want Palestinians in their state.

hmm...Solution to the Mexican problem maybe? :p

So now Israel sent tanks into Gaza. Planes too.

...Why do I get an urge to make a fake EU3 image? >_>

They are. And one day Israel will set up concentration camps, too.

I'm no fan of Israel, but even I think that's extreme. Your grounds for this claim are... what exactly?

I'm no fan of Israel, but even I think that's extreme. Your grounds for this claim are... what exactly?

Germany went to war....Israel went to war...

Obviously Jews are Nazis...

Germany went to war....Israel went to war...

Obviously Jews are Nazis...
Given their respective reasons (ideology of racial superiority), that's actually a valid comparison.

Given their respective reasons (ideology of racial superiority), that's actually a valid comparison.

I asked for clarification and you give me squat.

Given their respective reasons (ideology of racial superiority), that's actually a valid comparison.

Alright...I call Shenanigans...I think this is a joke account, lol...

I asked for clarification and you give me squat.Zionism and Nazism aren't so dissimilar. Both believe that membership in their respective grouping constitutes a right to kill and displace those who are not members.
The steady Jewish settlement of the West Bank is a form of gradual ethnic cleansing. Palestinians already live like in reservations (with Wall/Fence around).

I asked for clarification and you give me squat.

Well, according to HappyLesbo, Jews believe they are the chosen people and therefore think all gentiles are dirt, to be crushed down under the heel of rightous Jewish dominance because of Abraham's covenent with god.

So because the above is obviously true (at least to him/her), therefore Jews=nazis.

I suppose you want me to feel sorry for a group of people who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for those who support them? I suppose you want me to feel sorry for the Palestinians who harbor and support Hamas?

Well, I do not.
What about the majority of Palestinians, the ones that aren't members of Hamas, the women nd children. Any feelings whatsoever for them?

Hey, they voted for Hamas. They got what they wanted.

That's not really true for the 440,409 people who voted for Hamas. But ignoring that for a moment: What about the remaining 3,300,000 who didn't vote for Hamas? How are they getting "what they wanted"?

Well, I guess you would prefer the Israelis use stick and stones. :eek2: You will always have collateral damage in a war. The problem of collateral damage is exacerbated when the enemy hides among the civilian population.
And it's made worse when Israel responds disproportionally and when they don't take all precautions to avoid civilian casualties.

I guess the Palestinians really care that they have killed people unrelated to what they are trying to accomplish when they lob missiles into Israel. Oh...wait...it is what they are trying to accomplish, the elimination of all Jews including women, children, and old men. :mad:
"The Palestinians" are trying to eliminate "all Jews", are they?

Hardly.

Corrected. That's a damn good question because they have never done anything constructive to help resolve this problem. :mad:
That's true, if you choose to ignore reality.

They are. And one day Israel will set up concentration camps, too.

No, they won't.

Well, according to HappyLesbo, Jews believe they are the chosen people and therefore think all gentiles are dirt, to be crushed down under the heel of rightous Jewish dominance because of Abraham's covenent with god.

So because the above is obviously true (at least to him/her), therefore Jews=nazis.Hey, the ideology of being God's chosen people and having the divine right to own the land of Palestine is what Zionism is about and the reason for Israel's existence.

No, they won't.What makes you so sure?

I suppose you think that the Neighborhoods who "harbor and support" gangs should not recieve food, water, or medicine? That sounds like what you're saying. And shouldn't Israel follow international law anyway? You know, no collective punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment)?

:rolleyes:

The cited reference does not support your argument. Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane were examples of "collective punishment." Military retaliation provoked by rocket and mortar attacks launched by a terrorist organization that controls a neighboring territory is not "collective punishment."

Also, the current approach just breeds more resentment towards Israel, and lo and behold, that makes more extremists. That makes this whole approach self-defeating

"Also, the current Ham-ass approach just breeds more resentment towards Ham-ass, and lo and behold, that makes more extremists. That makes this whole approach self-defeating." I'm waiting to hear that argument when Ham-ass launches rockets and mortars against Israel.

God willing, Israel will do it right this time and crush Ham-ass once and for all. Root them out wherever they hide. Destroy the tunnels, seize the weaponry, kill the leadership and cause so much pain that their will is broken forever.

:rolleyes:

The cited reference does not support your argument. Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane were examples of "collective punishment." Military retaliation provoked by rocket and mortar attacks launched by a terrorist organization that controls a neighboring territory is not "collective punishment."

Collective punishment in the 4th Geneva Convention:


Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.

What the IDF does, and has done extensively in the past is exactly collective punishment.

"Also, the current Ham-ass approach just breeds more resentment towards Ham-ass, and lo and behold, that makes more extremists. That makes this whole approach self-defeating." I'm waiting to hear that argument when Ham-ass launches rockets and mortars against Israel.
Oh right. Didn't realise everyone has to put at the end of every one of their posts on the topic; "And I in no way condone the activities of [insert group name here].

God willing, Israel will do it right this time and crush Ham-ass once and for all. Root them out wherever they hide. Destroy the tunnels, seize the weaponry, kill the leadership and cause so much pain that their will is broken forever.
Sure, the IDF did that with Hezb'allah too. That worked out to a tee.

On topic: As Tzipi Livn claims that "There is no humanitarian crisis" in Gaza, and Army spokesman Peter Lerner agrees and insists that Israel has "a humanitarian effort which goes alongside the military effort in order to complement and to facilitate the humanitarian needs", Karen AbuZayd of UNRWA, who's been on the Gaza strip since three days before the attacks started (she got out yesterday) asks Israeli officials to "come see for themselves." At the same time, Hamas is delaying some shipments of aid, and preventing them from reaching people in need.

As usual, the civilians are the once that suffer.

Collective punishment in the 4th Geneva Convention:


Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.

What the IDF does, and has done extensively in the past is exactly collective punishment.

You will never make that case in any court, nor anywhere else that matters. By your reasoning, virtually any military action that has the possiblity of collateral damage can be characterized as "collective punishment."

Oh right. Didn't realise everyone has to put at the end of every one of their posts on the topic; "And I in no way condone the activities of .

Now you know. :p


Sure, the IDF did that with Hezb'allah too. That worked out to a tee.

As I said, "God willing, Israel will do it right [I]this time."

"Also, the current Ham-ass approach just breeds more resentment towards Ham-ass, and lo and behold, that makes more extremists. That makes this whole approach self-defeating." I'm waiting to hear that argument when Ham-ass launches rockets and mortars against Israel.
Are you serious?

Hamas was already isolated internationally. The West refused to speak to them, and the Arab States didn't want to deal with them. The population in Gaza were growing weary of them, and the population in the West Bank would prefer that they didn't exist. (Generally speaking).

The missiles fired at Israel only bred more hatred and extremists in Israel, among other things making it more likely that Netanyahu would win the next election - which would not be a good thing for the Palestinians. The US has given their blessing for the attacks and an invasion because of the rocket attacks. The EU calls the invasion "Defensive" because of the rocket attacks.

So yeah. It really should go without saying, if you pay attention to the news and the current situation at all.

You will never make that case in any court, nor anywhere else that matters.

....would like to disagree with you (http://www.icty.org/)

By your reasoning,
By the law, not my reasoning.

virtually any military action that has the possiblity of collateral damage can be characterized as "collective punishment."
Bombing a religious centre of worship has no military value.

As I said, "God willing, Israel will do it right this time."
Don't hold your breath, they haven't "done it right" the previous 30 times they've done this - what makes you think this time will be any different.

I'm no fan of Israel, but even I think that's extreme. Your grounds for this claim are... what exactly?

Still, you can't deny that Gaza is a de facto Palestinian Ghetto, with the Wall being built, Palestinians often being blocked from crossing into Israeli territory to work/sell for a living and with frequent cutoffs of utilities as retaliation for whatever Hamas is trying.

You will never make that case in any court, nor anywhere else that matters.
The case could very well be made in court. In an Israeli court even, for that matter. Even they have their good days...

The blocade, the power cuts, The arbitrary defining of civilian towns as "military bases", the destruction of homes of people who haven't done anything against Israel, etc. A case could indeed be made.

What makes you so sure?

Because there's no indicatioon whatsoever that it'll come to that. Because in the democratic country there's an opposition even against the current military actions. And the US (and the international community) wouldn't stand for it, and Israel don't want to lose the support of the US.

The case could very well be made in court. In an Israeli court even, for that matter. Even they have their good days...

The blocade, the power cuts, The arbitrary defining of civilian towns as "military bases", the destruction of homes of people who haven't done anything against Israel, etc. A case could indeed be made.

Unfortunately as the case with the reporter ban shows, the Israeli government ignores even its own Supreme Court when it makes a decision it deems unfavorable. Even if all of the above constitutes a crime as defined by the Court, the Government'll simply take an Andrew Jackson attitude to the judicial branch.

Still, you can't deny that Gaza is a de facto Palestinian Ghetto, with the Wall being built, Palestinians often being blocked from crossing into Israeli territory to work/sell for a living and with frequent cutoffs of utilities as retaliation for whatever Hamas is trying.

Oh, I'm not. I was looking for an answer with substance, and lo and behold, I didn't have to hold my breathe. :D I wanted to see what the answer to the extreme claim that Israel would build concentration camps would be.

Zionism and Nazism aren't so dissimilar. Both believe that membership in their respective grouping constitutes a right to kill and displace those who are not members.
The steady Jewish settlement of the West Bank is a form of gradual ethnic cleansing. Palestinians already live like in reservations (with Wall/Fence around).

Really now? Would you care to substantiate that? I know the wall is a fact, but the rest I would like to see... some kind of proof for. You know, something that validates your stance.

Because there's no indicatioon whatsoever that it'll come to that. Because in the democratic country there's an opposition even against the current military actions. And the US (and the international community) wouldn't stand for it, and Israel don't want to lose the support of the US.The US? Guantanamo? And with the Muslim-hunt going on in the US since Sept 11 2001 I would not be surprised.

Has any one played Raid Gaza yet? http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/476393

That is one fast reaction to the bombing campaign... Either that or the game has a fair amount of experience making flash games. Still...

That and the game is a pretty damn apt analysis of the situation.

Has any one played Raid Gaza yet? http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/476393

That is one fast reaction to the bombing campaign... Either that or the game has a fair amount of experience making flash games. Still...

That and the game is a pretty damn apt analysis of the situation.

I only got a ratio of 20 to 1. Guess that makes me an anti-Semite.

I only got a ratio of 20 to 1. Guess that makes me an anti-Semite.Pathetic, I got over twenty times that. The trick is only use planes, helicopters and missiles. Then you'll notice another of the game's political messages.

Also, I notice that people are always lambasting Amedinjad for his wiping Israel off the map quote, but I don't think I've ever seen any criticism of Olmert for his similar quote presented by loading screen (or whatever it is) by the game -- "the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians".

"the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians".

Within Israeli territory, presumably.

He's referring to the "demographic problem": the inability for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic if the Palestinians in the territories demand full suffrage and equality. It's among the major reasons that the Israeli leadership is more inclined to a two-state solution these days.

Within Israeli territory, presumably.

He's referring to the "demographic problem": the inability for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic if the Palestinians in the territories demand full suffrage and equality. It's among the major reasons that the Israeli leadership is more inclined to a two-state solution these days.But what is Israeli territory? Who has sovereignty over the Palestinian territories. Seems like it Israel when it suits them and no one when it doesn't.

I guess I should have guessed that the quote was at least partially taken out of context when I couldn't find it in context easily. But then isn't that the main defense of the Ahmadinejad quote, that or it's poorly translated.

I'm not sure what to think about having nation-states based around ethnicity. My gut feeling says it's a bad idea and European history tends to be a show case of why such states are a bad idea. But then most of the ex-colonial countries tend to be a show case of why reverse is also a bad idea. I guess this is normally why I steer clear of such threads. I have no idea what to think, that all the leaders involved don't have much more an idea on how to approach the situation than I do, and I all I can really contribute to the discussion is my sadness at the casualties on both sides.

....would like to disagree with you (http://www.icty.org/)

A court that has no enforcement power is a court that doesn't matter.


By the law, not my reasoning.

Your reading of the law is not the law, nor is it likely to be enforced.


Bombing a religious centre of worship has no military value.

That comment would apply to, say, attacking the Chabad house in Mumbai. A "religious centre of worship" that stores weapons is ipso facto a target of military value. Store bombs, get bombed.

Don't hold your breath, they haven't "done it right" the previous 30 times they've done this - what makes you think this time will be any different.

That's why I said "God willing." :p

A court that has no enforcement power is a court that doesn't matter.

Considering the ICTY was established by UNSC Resolution (which has legally binding power), the Statute of the ICTY itself showing it's jurisdiction and enforcement, and the litany of prosecutions and those serving time in jail - means you're really, really wrong.


That comment would apply to, say, attacking the Chabad house in Mumbai. A "religious centre of worship" that stores weapons is ipso facto a target of military value. Store bombs, get bombed.
Any corroborated proof that the mosque in Gaza was storing weapons? Or is it only from the military that's taking the current action? Because regardless of religious beliefs, the destruction of a place of worship is a crime, and is illegal.

If only there was some way of independent validation of your claim by having international journalists on the ground. Shame. For some reason the military doesn't want them in there - despite the Israeli Supreme Court specifically stating they are to be let in http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-ordered-to-allow-journalists-into-gaza-1219795.html

But what is Israeli territory? Who has sovereignty over the Palestinian territories. Seems like it Israel when it suits them and no one when it doesn't.

This ambiguity is at the heart of the issue.

Technically, the only part of the Occupied Territories that Israel has actually annexed is East Jerusalem (and the Golan Heights, but that's a separate matter). But even the Israeli settlements in the other parts of the territories are populated by full Israeli citizens, and, of course, Israel exercises some control over all of it.

As long as the Palestinians continue to be focused on independence, this legal duality is safe for Israel. But if ever a movement grows among them insisting upon suffrage within Israel, Israel will be faced with the difficulty of having what may quickly become an Arab majority making a rather compelling argument for equal political rights.

Observers on both the far left and the far right, including figures like Rabbi Meir Kahane, have long noted that there is a contradiction in principle in having a state both Jewish and democratic: what happens if the Arab minority becomes a majority, or otherwise gains real political power? The policy of "disengagement" was centered around a desire to stop that conflict in principle from ever being a conflict in practice, coming from pragmatists like Sharon and Olmert who, despite their past sympathies for territorial expansion and the settlement movement, came to realize that ultimately this danger exceeded (what they saw as) the benefits.

What Olmert is basically saying in the quote is that he (like Sharon) wants to impose unilaterally a situation where as many Jews as possible (i.e. the major settlement blocs in the West Bank) are incorporated into Israel, while at the same time as many Palestinians as possible are incorporated into a separate Palestinian state, such that they will pose no demographic threat to the notion of a Jewish-majority democracy in Israel.

It's worth noting, for the record (if we ever get back to where we were in 2005), that "disengagement" and the kind of Palestinian state it seeks need not have anything to do with genuine sovereignty or equality or self-determination for the Palestinians. Indeed, unilateralism as a policy tends toward results of an opposite character.

I'm not sure what to think about having nation-states based around ethnicity.

Without casting judgment either way, two related points seem worthy of note.

First, Israeli Jews are attached to the notion of a Jewish-majority state for some rather good historical reasons: the fact of the matter is that Jews have been persecuted worldwide for centuries, that Israel is composed of many Jews whose near-ancestors suffered one of the worst genocides in history at the hands of the Nazis, and that a population with whom one has been locked in a conflict with for decades is not a population that any group would want participating in their elections with such power.

Second, whatever you and I think about it, Israeli Jews will not give it up. They will use immense force to defend it, and with far more domestic political credibility than even operations like the present one in Gaza have. Nobody who can contest them on those terms will, so the fact of the matter is that Israel as a Jewish state is here to stay, and people interested in practical solutions to the conflict should keep that in mind as a constant.

Thats what it basically comes down to. What the Palestinians should do is live in peace. There best way is to out produce the Israeli's with kids. In a voting democracy that peace should bring Palestinians within a Jewish state should get voting power and change policies. Look at what Mexicans are doing in the US. Same principle. Out produce then out vote.

Doesn't work. Israeli courts have precedence of kicking out legitimate non-Jewish people from their homes and giving it to the Jewish squatters, and the police are completely ignoring Jewish skinhead equivalents randomly murdering the Palestinians.

First, Israeli Jews are attached to the notion of a Jewish-majority state for some rather good historical reasons: the fact of the matter is that Jews have been persecuted worldwide for centuries, that Israel is composed of many Jews whose near-ancestors suffered one of the worst genocides in history at the hands of the Nazis, and that a population with whom one has been locked in a conflict with for decades is not a population that any group would want participating in their elections with such power.
Thus obviously it is within their right to persecute people. Actively.

Doesn't work. Israeli courts have precedence of kicking out legitimate non-Jewish people from their homes and giving it to the Jewish squatters, and the police are completely ignoring Jewish skinhead equivalents randomly murdering the Palestinians.

Then ignore them even when they attack the military/police for even then semblance of removing them.

Thus obviously it is within their right to persecute people. Actively.

The entire point of having a state that is both Jewish and democratic is to keep it Jewish without actively persecuting anyone.

Kind of overkill to use airstrikes in response to rocket attacks no?

Well.. no. Sending in motorized/ground units would probably result in greater Israeli casualties and around the same number of Palestinian casualties if not greater. I don't know what else you expect them to do, just sit there and take it?

As many people may now be aware, Israeli ground forces have begun to invade the Gaza area of the Middle East in response to the latest series of bombings by the Hamas group. As you read this, open combat continues in an already unstable part of the world, contributing to more bloodshed and more broken familes. I would like to know what people think should be done, not just a single country's response to the situation, but how and when a peace can be created that appeals to all parties there.I ask that people refrain from personal attacks here, there's already too much destruction going on there, that we don't need to bring it here.



MODEDIT: This and the next four posts have been merged from yet another thread on this conflict.

I say we just kill them all on both sides, go home, and call it a day.

Wouldn't that kinda piss off everyone else in the area though?

Wouldn't that kinda piss off everyone else in the area though?

Not as badly as what we've been doing up til this point.

good point, well made.