NationStates Jolt Archive

There are several tactics and techniques to help you avoid getting a speeding ticket. The easiest of these is of course, don't speed. But if you MUST speed, follow these simple rules:

1) 5 to 7mph over the speed limit is usually safe. People very rarely if ever get pulled over for speeding by that little.

2) If you're within 5 miles of home, you can usually get let off with a warning. Unless you're really speeding excessively, if you're close to home and polite to the police officer, he won't usually ticket you.

3) Be careful if you're out of your home state/region. Police are much more likely to pull you over if you're from out of state because you're much less likely to fight the ticket.

4) Be careful if you're driving a cop magnet. Certain cars attract cops. Certain models, colors and noise levels are more likely to get a cop's attention than others. If you're driving a bright red ford mustang that sounds like a low flying cruise missile, you should curb your speeding and stay withing 5 to 7 over.

5) Use cop magnets as cover. If someone is speeding excessively, you can usually speed nearly as fast for at least a few miles. If that someone is out of state or driving a cop magnet(as above), you can probably match his speed once he passes by. Just keep him visible in the distance so you know when he gets off the highway/gets pulled over.

6) Don't brake suddenly. If you're speeding and you see a cop in the distance, don't brake. They can tell. On the other hand, if you take your foot off the gas and let yourself coast down, they can tell that too. Coasting down is indicative of a driver who simply hasn't looked at his speedometer in a couple minutes and probably didn't intend to go that fast. On the other hand, braking, especially suddenly indicates someone who is trying to avoid getting caught speeding.

7) Be entertaining. In a worst-case scenario, if you get pulled over, be irreverent. Might I suggest this approach: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yFW-PRNQFXk

:D

I just got one the other day for going 10 miles over the limit in VT.

Officer walked to the window, asked if I knew why I was being pulled over, and seemed very shocked when I said "Going 60 in a 50 zone". Appearently he had clocked me at 65, but gave me the 60 for being honest.

There are several tactics and techniques to help you avoid getting a speeding ticket. The easiest of these is of course, don't speed. But if you MUST speed, follow these simple rules:

:D

I find being honest works well. here, sometimes the cops will give you a siren beep as a warning. head it!

also helps to become good friends with Cops.

I find being honest works well. here, sometimes the cops will give you a siren beep as a warning. head it!

also helps to become good friends with Cops.

I married one. :D

What about flashing your boobs? Will that work?

lol, i love Cannonball Run :P

cops in the UK will usually let you off up to 80mph, which is 10 over the limit. over 80 and you're getting pulled over. over 90 and you lose your licence (apparently). i tend to drive at 80 and try not to go over unless all the traffic is going fast (like on the M3 toward London, where just to be in the outside lane you have to be going over 90mph...)

Try convincing a speed camera that it was a mistake. Those things don't allow for discretion.

What about flashing your boobs? Will that work?

Depends on the boobs. ANd the cop.

LG, you hit the nail on the head right away when you said don't speed.

This was all a charade just so you could post a video of your alter ego, wasn't it?

As for the speeding tips. Location, location, location. In and around town where traffic is more congested and there is a large number of pedestrians is a very stupid place to speed. That secondary highway that doesn't get a whole lot of traffic thanks to the new freeway is a much better choice. It still may be patrolled however so don't think you can roar around at 150 km/h and not get pulled.

As for being pulled over? Twice in my work truck while off highway on ice roads. It wasn't by much (10 or 15 Km/h over I think) but what made it worse was the first time I was hauling back some dangerous goods from a drilling rig and I was overweight (the peace officer didn't know that). I was nice, it was late at night, it was my first time being pulled over so I got off with a warning. The second time I also got a warning but that was because my swamper and I were both soaking wet after washing trucks for 12 hours (including the peace officers ;) )and the guy wasn't a cruel bastard.

LG, you hit the nail on the head right away when you said don't speed.

But then it takes longer to get to places.

I married one. :D

You wouldn't beleive how many cops pulled me over and just 'gave me a warning.' :p

But then it takes longer to get to places.

Then you find a faster mode of transport.

The best way to avoid a ticket is, be honest, be polite, don't try to argue or be a dick. If he got you speeding, he's pretty much got you dead to rights, and he more or less knows this. At that point it becomes the cop's perogative of whether to give you a ticket. Don't give him a reason to.

This was all a charade just so you could post a video of your alter ego, wasn't it?

Ye.... I mean....

Nooooo.

:D

Then you find a faster mode of transport.

A Bugatti?

What about flashing your boobs? Will that work?

I seriously doubt the average guy can pull that off. Unless you're in Jersey.

lol, i love Cannonball Run :P

cops in the UK will usually let you off up to 80mph, which is 10 over the limit. over 80 and you're getting pulled over. over 90 and you lose your licence (apparently). i tend to drive at 80 and try not to go over unless all the traffic is going fast (like on the M3 toward London, where just to be in the outside lane you have to be going over 90mph...)

Its 100mph, over 100 and you lose your licence on the spot.

A magistrate also cannot be lenient if you break 100. Offences on a motorway below 99mph usually are not harshly enforced, and this is the same if the speed of the traffic is higher.

Also, younger drivers, only have half as many points, so effectively double punishment.

Then you find a faster mode of transport.

Right...let me grab my jet pack.

7) Be entertaining. In a worst-case scenario, if you get pulled over, be irreverent. Might I suggest this approach: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yFW-PRNQFXk

:D

I love that movie. Great clip.

What about flashing your boobs? Will that work?

You've got boobs??? :eek:

You've got boobs??? :eek:

Well first let me find a girlfriend, and then I'll get back to you on that. :p

The best way to avoid a ticket is, be honest, be polite, don't try to argue or be a dick. If he got you speeding, he's pretty much got you dead to rights, and he more or less knows this. At that point it becomes the cop's perogative of whether to give you a ticket. Don't give him a reason to.
^This.


4) Be careful if you're driving a cop magnet. Certain cars attract cops. Certain models, colors and noise levels are more likely to get a cop's attention than others. If you're driving a bright red ford mustang that sounds like a low flying cruise missile, you should curb your speeding and stay withing 5 to 7 over.It's completely the opposite in my experiences. The only time I've been pulled over in my red Ford Mustang is when a cop pulled up next to me at a light, and my headlight was out.

But when I drove my old P.O.S. '89 beige Honda, it was like I was on the most wanted list.

Drive a 36hp VW Bus.

Drive a 36hp VW Bus.

My dad has a 1990 Dodge Ram truck, and he speeds in it all the time and never gets pulled over. In his words, it's because Cops clock him, and then they think their radar need to be fixed.

2) If you're within 5 miles of home, you can usually get let off with a warning. Unless you're really speeding excessively, if you're close to home and polite to the police officer, he won't usually ticket you.

- Sir, you were speeding.
- But I'm almost home!
- Ah, I see, well then, don't do it again.

:confused:

My dad has a 1990 Dodge Ram truck, and he speeds in it all the time and never gets pulled over. In his words, it's because Cops clock him, and then they think their radar need to be fixed.

Unfortunately, when a long haired, bearded dude in a floppy UC Santa Cruz hat drives by in a beat up '67 bus they pull you over anyway, just in case. This is why my 'primary care provider' (pusherman, for those who live in states without medical marijuana laws (and in the past where 'pusherman' is still a term people use)) has to be within walking distance. Because traveling with weed in the weed wagon is really just askin' for it. They're not guessing...(though, of course, I've smoked copious amounts of weed in that thing...it's required, otherwise they revoke your ownership)

- Sir, you were speeding.
- But I'm almost home!
- Ah, I see, well then, don't do it again.

:confused:

Well, no. It's more like, do you know why I pulled you over? And you go yeah, I was kinda speeding there. And then they start asking where you're headed and why, whether you've been drinking and what is the shovel and burlap sack in the back for. So answer honestly, except about the shovel and sack, and then usually if in the course of all this they learn that you are in fact so close to home, not really causing trouble, don't have a record or anything, and its late at night -

-then yes, they will probably let you go with a warning.

You can usually get away with a bit more in the rain, too (although if you're way too far over, you're screwed more than normally, because of the more dangerous conditions), just because cops don't like having to get out in the rain any more than the rest of us.

In New Zealand, it is a matter of luck. If the policeman has filled his quota for the day, then you may get off. If not, then it doesn't matter, you will get ticketed.

Try convincing a speed camera that it was a mistake. Those things don't allow for discretion.

You can't bribe a speed camera either. They're incapable of any kind of compassion, but they make pretty good pictures of your car.

The only time I've been pulled over in my red Ford Mustang is when a cop pulled up next to me at a light, and my headlight was out.

Apparently I was going 59 in a 35 in mine :(

Apparently I was going 59 in a 35 in mine :(

Ok, there's a story behind this, I want to hear it. Why were you going 59 in a 35?

I've gotten out of tickets by telling really bad (Or good, depends upon perspective.) jokes. I think the cops just gave me the warning to make me shut up. :p

not owning a car, and taking public transit or walking helps too.

Ok, there's a story behind this, I want to hear it. Why were you going 59 in a 35?

He was being chased by radioactive gorillas.

Or he was just going too fast. Why would there have to be a story behind that?

He was being chased by radioactive gorillas.

Or he was just going too fast. Why would there have to be a story behind that?

there's one behind the only speeding ticked i ever got:

my speedometer was busted and i was traveling at what felt like the speed other traffic normally flowed through the area in the daytime. the only trouble was that it was the middle of the night, i was the only car there, and a very bored cop was waiting to pounce.

You can't bribe a speed camera either. They're incapable of any kind of compassion, but they make pretty good pictures of your car.Nuh-uh, rule 2 is applicable to speed cameras in the UK. Well it's more like you can go up to 110% of the speed limit without getting ticketed. The camera isn't 100% accurate and they don't want to catch all the millions who people who might have just slipped over the limit. That's why the government allows for the 10% margin on the cameras.

you lucky bastards...

3km over the limit in any zone is the tolerance here in Australia (well Victoria).

Which is kinda interesting considering the Australian Standard for speedo's is within 10%.
our fee structure:

Speed, period of license suspension, number of demerit points (13 is loss of license)

1kmh to 9kmh over the speed limit - 0 - 1

10kmh to 24kmh over the speed limit - 0 - 3

25kmh to 34kmh over the speed limit - 1 month - 4

35kmh to 44kmh over the speed limit - 6 months - 6

more than 45kmh over the speed limit - 12 months - 8

130kmh to 134kmh in 110kmh zone - 1 month - 3

Driving at a dangerous speed - 6 to 12 month


They mostly rely on hidden speed cameras, fixed cameras on overpasses (in 100kph zones) and trip distance (ie average speed over the distance) cameras.

Warning: The following information should only be used in a first world country, like Australia, The USA and The UK. Using this information outside of a country not listed above could prove to be costly.

Disclaimer: This is for information purposes only, I take no responsibility for any outcomes: good or bad, that this information may give you.

Ok it has come to my attention that I have discovered an incredible secret, tactics so powerful put together they could allow you to never receive another speeding fine EVER AGAIN. In the past 3 years I have applied these tactics liberally and have not received a single fine.

These tactics are simple to apply and could save you thousands of dollars over the coming years, so long as you follow this guide to the t, if you chose to improvise or stray from these simple steps, I cannot be held responsible for any fines or demerit points you may receive.

Note: This guide assumes you can already drive a car, if you cannot, please do not attempt this guide.

Without further ado -

My 5 Step Guide to Avoiding ANY Speeding Fine

Step 1. Jump into the drivers seat of your car, if you have a clutch press it down, then start the engine.

Step 2. As you are sitting in the drivers seat (please ensure you are in the drivers seat not the passengers) look ahead just behind the steering wheel. There you will see a series of numbers going around in a circle with something such as "km/h" or if you are in the USA "mp/h" in front of you.

Take note of this dial, we will be coming back to it.

Step 3. This step is key! After starting your car and are traveling along look out for these carefully hidden signs along the side of the road, they are difficult to spot but if you look close enough you will be able to see them.

The way you can tell these signs apart from other signs, is that they have white background and a red circle on them. Inside that red circle lies a number: this number is the key to this top secret strategy.

As you pass one of these signs, write the number down... actually scratch that, don't write it down, you are driving and may cause a crash, just remember the number the best you can.

Step 4. Refer back to the dial we spoke of in step 2, you should notice a little (generally orange colored) stick pointing to either a number or part the way in between some numbers on this dial.

Gently raise or lower your right foot so the little stick falls or rises, until this little stick rests on the number we discovered in step 3. Please ensure the stick is exactly on this number and not above or below it.

Step 5. (If you have a car with a function known as "cruise control" this step is much much easier, it takes care or everything for you!) Now you must continue to lower or raise your right foot so that the little orange stick stays on the number from step 3.

As you continue to pass more of the signs discovered in step 3, change the little stick in front of you so it matches the new number accordingly. Also please ensure you change the little stick before the new sign if the new sign has a lower number, and after the sign if the new sign has a higher number than the last one.

========================

If you apply this guide I guarantee* you will never ever receive a speeding fine again.

And that's all for my 5 step guide, may you have a safe and fine free Christmas holiday.

Merry Christmas All!

* - I take no responsibility if you come across a snarky police officer who hates your 23 blue neons and decides to give you a speeding fine regardless of this guide.
Source: http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=741352

I went 208 mph (this is not a mistype) a week ago, on a low-traffic road, and went straight past a cop going towards us.

He didn't pull us over, though, not sure why.

I went 208 mph (this is not a mistype) a week ago, on a low-traffic road, and went straight past a cop going towards us.

He didn't pull us over, though, not sure why.

I need to know what kind of car you were driving that can make it to 208 mph. I only know of a few and they are very expensive so I am curious.

But then it takes longer to get to places.

We need matter teleportation devices.

I need to know what kind of car you were driving that can make it to 208 mph. I only know of a few and they are very expensive so I am curious.
Porsche 911 Turbo. It's not mine yet, the owner trying to sell it to me was showcasing how fast can it go.

According to him it could actually pull at least a few more miles, and I'm sure it can, but that would take a long smooth straight, which wasn't the case.

It's funny, the Porsche website doesn't list a single 911 that is capable of topping 204mph. And that's a 911 GT2, not a Turbo.

But, you know, whatever.

I presume you mean stock ones. They're for posers.

While the Porsche flat-sixes aren't as boostable as RB26DETT, their power is artificially capped with a restrictive intake system and a very low-power ECU tuning. Fixing these components largely unlocks the engine without a significant notch into the fuel economy and noise levels.



P.S.
You've just admitted to driving a stock car (which is akin to using Internet Explorer), but, just wondering, have you at least ever opened its hood other than to fill in oil and water, or do you drive to the service station for everything else?

It's funny, the Porsche website doesn't list a single 911 that is capable of topping 204mph. And that's a 911 GT2, not a Turbo.

But, you know, whatever.

I presume you mean stock ones. They're for posers.

While the Porsche flat-sixes aren't as boostable as RB26DETT, their power is artificially capped with a restrictive intake system and a very low-power ECU tuning. Fixing these components largely unlocks the engine without a significant notch into the fuel economy and noise levels.



P.S.
You've just admitted to driving a stock car (which is akin to using Internet Explorer), but, just wondering, have you at least ever opened its hood other than to fill in oil and water, or do you drive to the service station for everything else?

To be honest, "yeah, I was talking bollocks, just trying to show off, sorry" would have been a better response than trying to dig your way out with even more bullshit.

I went 208 mph (this is not a mistype) a week ago, on a low-traffic road, and went straight past a cop going towards us.

He didn't pull us over, though, not sure why.probably...
1) he knows it was a test drive.
2) where he was going was more important than stopping a speeding car. not all cops put on a show going to an emergency. a silent approach might be more important.

not owning a car, and taking public transit or walking helps too.
yep. and you get excercise also.

To be honest, "yeah, I was talking bollocks, just trying to show off, sorry" would have been a better response than trying to dig your way out with even more bullshit.
Actually, you're mistaken.

I've been looking to buy a used Porsche for quite a long while by now. That involves test driving a lot of them, including modified vehicles. Porsches are among the cars that tend to receive modifications far more frequently than any other. Engines with a lot of reserve and general durability of these cars contribute to that significantly.

That's not to mention that the official performance specs of Porsches are generally understated in all aspects, particularly acceleration, but top speed as well.



P.S. And do you seriously think I wouldn't know the factory specs of Porsches made in the last decade?

probably...
1) he knows it was a test drive.
2) where he was going was more important than stopping a speeding car. not all cops put on a show going to an emergency. a silent approach might be more important.
Maybe... Or maybe he just didn't expect it. We certainly didn't expect to see a cop, in such a place, in such a time of the year. Was pretty scary, that would be some serious violation.



yep. and you get excercise also.
...Or, if one doesn't mind arriving all sweaty, they can get a bike. Good exercise as well.

Actually, you're mistaken.

I've been looking to buy a used Porsche for quite a long while by now. That involves test driving a lot of them, including modified vehicles. Porsches are among the cars that tend to receive modifications far more frequently than any other. Engines with a lot of reserve and general durability of these cars contribute to that significantly.

P.S. And do you seriously think I wouldn't know the factory specs of Porsches made in the last decade?

Your story is completely unbelievable. Even if we ignore that, however, we're left with your statement that to go faster than 208 would have required a long, smooth straight - as if 208 mph itself wouldn't already require one hell of a long, smooth straight. You don't appear to know anything at all about high speed driving.

If you're going to make things up, you really should try and make it plausible.

as if 208 mph itself wouldn't already require one hell of a long, smooth straight. You don't appear to know anything at all about high speed driving.
I do, and it doesn't - just any sizable straight, which most roads are.
"One hell of a long smooth straight" is required to go a lot beyond that.

Get familiar with turbocharged cars. Their modification has less effect on the overall track performance than one might expect from the figures, but greatly enhances the high-speed acceleration and overall speed in a straight line.


P.S.
Of course, I wouldn't post it if it wasn't shocking. That would be spam.

I presume you mean stock ones. They're for posers.


P.S.
You've just admitted to driving a stock car (which is akin to using Internet Explorer), but, just wondering, have you at least ever opened its hood other than to fill in oil and water, or do you drive to the service station for everything else?
Oh the horror of just buying something so it works without you having to fiddle with it.


While the Porsche flat-sixes aren't as boostable as RB26DETT, their power is artificially capped with a restrictive intake system and a very low-power ECU tuning. Fixing these components largely unlocks the engine without a significant notch into the fuel economy and noise levels.

Actually, you're mistaken.

I've been looking to buy a used Porsche for quite a long while by now. That involves test driving a lot of them, including modified vehicles. Porsches are among the cars that tend to receive modifications far more frequently than any other. Engines with a lot of reserve and general durability of these cars contribute to that significantly.

That's not to mention that the official performance specs of Porsches are generally understated in all aspects, particularly acceleration, but top speed as well.

P.S. And do you seriously think I wouldn't know the factory specs of Porsches made in the last decade?

Wait, you're not the usual sort of internet nerd, you're... you're that other sort of nerd, the one that likes getting covered in oil as well as talking in long incomprehensible streams of letters and numbers

*runs screaming*

Maybe... Or maybe he just didn't expect it. We certainly didn't expect to see a cop, in such a place, in such a time of the year. Was pretty scary, that would be some serious violation.
If he wasn't expecting it, chances are he would give chase.

I went 208 mph (this is not a mistype) a week ago, on a low-traffic road, and went straight past a cop going towards us.

He didn't pull us over, though, not sure why.He probably radioed in to see if anyone was in the direction you were headed. If he was going the opposite direction and you were going as fast as you say you were, how would he have been able to catch up?

Oh the horror of just buying something so it works without you having to fiddle with it.
But that's the whole reason for buying things with an engine. So that you can see how fast you can make it run, tweak the ECU, work on the parts, find out how to get an optimal balance of power, torque and smoothness out of the engine, how to get the most traction, how to make it steady through corners yet good on the rough road...

If you're not going to work on your car and make it perform, why bother buying a new one in the first place? You could just buy an old Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and drive it till your son/daughter grows up and takes it over.


Wait, you're not the usual sort of internet nerd, you're... you're that other sort of nerd, the one that likes getting covered in oil as well as talking in long incomprehensible streams of letters and numbers
It's called "motorhead".

Yeah, I'm proud that I know how everything works and how to fix it - I've been fiddling with mechanics since Meccano in the early childhood, and when you get to the motors, it's a lot more fun than any other toys. You get to have fun all your life - and save money on not needing paid service, at that.

If he wasn't expecting it, chances are he would give chase.
That would be fun... Well, it wouldn't be fun at all if he had a radar and read the plate number in time. But maybe otherwise.



He probably radioed in to see if anyone was in the direction you were headed. If he was going the opposite direction and you were going as fast as you say you were, how would he have been able to catch up?
Maybe. But we haven't met any other traffic cops. Generally we hoped not to meet any at all on that day. It was pretty scary, TBH, only funny to talk about. Take the scariness of going fast in a car where you can see the road just a couple yards away from you, and add to it the risk of cops getting you for a pretty serious offense - in a pretty recognizable car.

It's called "motorhead".

Did Jesus build your hot rod, too?

208 mph (334.74355 kph)?

I don't think the objection is the straightness of the road, as it is the condition of the road. I wouldn't try anything over 120 on a standard non-Interstate.

Did Jesus build your hot rod, too?
This thread doesn't have enough Porsches in it.

What do you think is the best one, 935/78, Carrera or some other?



208 mph (334.74355 kph)?
Or at least that was on the speedo.

The condition only tends to be an issue on very poorly maintained roads. The 911 isn't some F1 racer with a millimeter of clearance. Although it is dangerous if there happens to be a significant hole.

This thread doesn't have enough Porsches in it.

What do you think is the best one, 935/78, Carrera or some other?

Oh, wait -- I was confusing Motorhead with Ministry ("Jesus Built My Hotrod"). Sorry.

I've never had the pleasure of driving a Porsche.

Oh, wait -- I was confusing Motorhead with Ministry ("Jesus Built My Hotrod"). Sorry.
Ah, I see. That's why I didn't get the reference.


I've never had the pleasure of driving a Porsche.
Just try out any car with its engine in the back. It's a very different experience.

It won't be as good as a Porsche, but actually, I think old Porsches and even Beetles (with an engine swap) are a lot more fun than the new 911s. These new ones are way too civil [and don't even talk about Coxters, these are just MR2 by Porsche]. They lack the bonus of high speed, and they're dangerous, but the fun lies in how they slide and roll, and generally handle. If today they say Porsches are merely the best cars to drive, these days they were something entirely different from anything else.
Sadly, old Porsches are way out of my reach, and I'm not nearly ready to pay that much for an old car anyway even if I could.

Ok, there's a story behind this, I want to hear it. Why were you going 59 in a 35?

I was driving home around midnight (low traffic), had just gotten off the highway and the lights were green, so I didn't slow down, because the radioactive gorillas would've gotten me otherwise.

I'm way ignorant, so forgive me. Does this Porsche have two flat-sixes paired together or just one? I would assume you would need more than six cylinders to get that kind of power.

I'm way ignorant, so forgive me. Does this Porsche have two flat-sixes paired together or just one? I would assume you would need more than six cylinders to get that kind of power.
That's a fairly strange assumption TBH... You can go this fast and faster with just four cylinders on a heavily-tuned Japanese vehicle (it's actually very light tune for a Porsche) or a rally car.

The number of cylinders is only related to power if you take the same engine and add or remove cylinders. Otherwise it has nothing to do with power, only with smoothness.

High-power engines tend to be V12 for one or two of the three reasons:
1) Their lower vibration level allows for a lighter engine;
2) They're usually in expensive cars, so the customers want a smoother engine sound (the case with Ferrari, Lambo, Rolls-Royce);
3) The manufacturer wants to use the same set of tools (the case with cheaper cars), so they want the cylinders to be the same size.


Also, despite the popular misconception, it's actually not the number of cylinders that is most important, but their position.
Flat-6 and Inline-6 are actually better than a V8, on par with V10, and only clearly lose to V12. Well, or they would also lose to an Inline-8.
Generally, flat and inline engines are the smoothest for a given number of cylinders.
The reason they usually use V6 or V8 today instead of an inline or flat six is because it's cheaper, and because V6 and V8 are very compact. They're 3 or 4 cylinders long (so quite short), with a square-like shape giving reasonable width and height. That allows to shorten the hood and increase the legroom. An Inline-6 needs a very long hood, and a Flat-6 is so wide it can only fit into a few cars, like into the Porsche's bulging rear end.
But when it can fit, it clearly beats a V8, and performs almost as well as a V12, only cheaper. And in some aspects better, the Porsche engine nearly scrapes the ground, so all the weight is very low - that makes the car handle much better.

What about flashing your boobs? Will that work?
Uh, not flashing yours, Wilgrove :eek2:

Vault, are you fanyboying Porsches again?

This is a car thread and as such it must have Porsches in it, there is no possible way to argue against it.

Better look here for some threadjacking witch-hunt: Why you shouldn't have kids and should have a 911 instead. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14363306#post14363306)
With additional reasons supported by multiple people. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14363427#post14363427)

This is a car thread and as such it must have Porsches in it, there is no possible way to argue against it.Why do you discriminate against bikes, huh? :p

I could argue that it's a wheeled vehicle/water vehicle thread, and say that it must include as much high performance fanboying about Ninjas and XB-2002s, but I don't do that to people. ;) (Yes, you can get a ticket for speeding on the water, but not while flying. :p)

I've never been pulled over for anything when I was driving. If I speed it's only on the highway and among cars that are going faster, it's tough to get caught that way. Friends of mine are another story, I drive like an old lady compared to them, and my car doesn't have tinted windows. I think you're more likely to get pulled over if you're in a packed car as well, as opposed to alone.

And I'm not a car guy. All those tiny-pricked idiots in their douche mobiles and riced out civics riding around everywhere these days are a nasty combination of sad and annoying to me. And if I got another motorcycle, it wouldn't be a poser mobile like a cruiser, I want speed not show.

The BEST and most surefire to get out of a speeding ticket is to play Bad Boys by Inner Circle and making the cop laugh.

Why do you discriminate against bikes, huh? :p

I could argue that it's a wheeled vehicle/water vehicle thread, and say that it must include as much high performance fanboying about Ninjas and XB-2002s, but I don't do that to people. ;) (Yes, you can get a ticket for speeding on the water, but not while flying. :p)

How would they enforce speed limits in the air?

Yes, you can get a ticket for speeding on the water, but not while flying. :pThough it may be possible to get arrested when breaking the speed of sound in populated areas.

Though it may be possible to get arrested when breaking the speed of sound in populated areas.

Wait, when did this happen? I love flying at rooftop level in highly populated areas at Mach 2.8! Why didn't anyone tell me this?!

Cop pulls a guy over for speeding.

Cop: Why were you speeding?

Guy: My wife ran away with a cop a few weeks ago. I taught you were trying to give her back! :P

At the very least you give the cop a good laugh! :P

Cop: Why were you speeding?

Guy: My wife ran away with a cop a few weeks ago. I taught you were trying to give her back!

I am totally using this if the need arises.

Being polite, honest and having a sense of humour works wonders with most cops.
two situations I've been in:
1. I went around a corner doing 140km/hr+ only to see a cop coming the other way. the speed limit is 100 km/hr, so I was looking at a $3000+ fine, possible loss of licence. He stuck his siren on, did a u-turn and followed me until I could pull over safely. Stepped out of the vehicle and asked me, "Did you know you were doing 142 km/hr back there?". I figured there was no point bullshitting him and replied, "At least I know my speedo works, cause that's what it was reading". He must have liked my frank honesty cause he let me off with a warning.
2. I was dead tired after having driven over 600km that day already and was still 100km from home. I was mostly on auto-pilot (which is not a good way to drive I know, but when you're stuffed it's hard to think straight). Coming into a small town I see a car coming towards me that I should give way to. I was too tired to care and cut him off, drove through town at 20 km over the speed limit and started accelerating just as I left town back up to 100 km/hr just before the open-road sign (thus doing almost 50 km above the speed limit) when the car I'd cut off put his siren on. whoops. It was a cop car but I was so tired I didn't even register that it was. He wanted to know why I was driving so badly. I apologised and told him I was really tired, that I'd driven a long way already and that I had to be back at work in the morning. He let me off with a warning and told me I should take a nap at the next rest area.


One ticket I did get out of was sheer luck, and I've no idea if it's applicable anywhere else but -
I was pulled over on a totally bogus infringement one time when I was driving a sports car (an RX7). I'd been stuck behind a really slow truck (it was going under 60km/hr on the open road!) for miles but hadn't tried anything cause there was a cop car 3 cars behind me that I had the strongest feeling was just waiting to nab me doing something wrong. So I didn't try to overtake anywhere even though I could have easily in the car I was in. Finally got to really long straight and decided I would overtake nice and slow, keeping the car just under 100km/hr so the cop couldn't do me for speeding (since apparently they can still do you for speeding even when overtaking). I pulled out, started overtaking when we passed a sign saying there was a passing lane 1km ahead. I figured the cop might try me for dangerous driving or something equally ludicrous, so I pulled back in. Immediately he put his siren on and pulled me over. reason? I was 'tailgating'. He said in his prfoessional opinion I was less than 28m away from the back end of the truck in front. I tried to argue that I had pulled out to ovetake then felt it wasn't safe enough to do so and thus pulled back in but he was unmoved. I was tailgating.
I did consider congratulating him on his superb, almost supernatural, eyesight that enabled him to see through 4 cars (the 3 between him and me + my own) and judge the distance between my front bumper and the truck's back bumper to such an outstanding accuracy. Especially considering that one would have to presume that each car between him and my front bumper, including his own, was at least 28m distance away from the next in line (otherwise he woudl have stopped them for tailgating, right?). Add in the length of each car (5m say) + the cop's car bonnet (another couple of metres there) and this particular overweight, 50-something cop is able to make astoundingly accurate judgements of distance from >140m away, through 20m of travelling steel. Very very impressive.
Anyway, I did consider making that congratulatory statement but reason got the better of me and I stayed stum.
As he was writing out the ticket, he noticed my warrant was about to expire that day. Since where I was stopped was - in his opinion - more than a day's drive away from where I lived and the day following that was a Sunday, he decided there was no way I could get a valid warrant before it expired and that from tomorrow I would be driving a warrantless-car. And so decided to give me a further ticket for my future breaking of the road laws. He 'generously' decided to give me a week to get a warrant, said qualifier was written down on the ticket meaning that the ticket was voided if I got my warrant within that time.

And this is where he screwed up and unwittingly helped me: He wrote both citations on the same ticket. I did in fact get home that day (he obviously had little understanding about what a sports car can do) and the following day got a warrant. I then went into the local police station with the ticket and new warrant. They cancelled the ticket which, in doing so, cancelled the first citation re: the tailgating.

So that's another possible way to get out of it.

Man, that cop was an arse. As he took off, he had a huge smirk on his face. I just knew he would be waiting for me up the road so drove off very slowly. Sure enough there he was at the top of the next hill with his speed camera in hand waiting for me. He must have figured I'd get really angry about the ludicrous ticketing and roar off at some ungodly speed so he could then do me for excessive speeding and dangerous driving.
I drove past him at 60km/hr and waved cheerfully at him. He looked really pissed. As I went around the corner I then accelerated and was off before he had a chance to get moving and tail me again.
Some people really shouldn't be cops.

But that's the whole reason for buying things with an engine. So that you can see how fast you can make it run, tweak the ECU, work on the parts, find out how to get an optimal balance of power, torque and smoothness out of the engine, how to get the most traction, how to make it steady through corners yet good on the rough road...

If you're not going to work on your car and make it perform, why bother buying a new one in the first place? You could just buy an old Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and drive it till your son/daughter grows up and takes it over.



It's called "motorhead".

Yeah, I'm proud that I know how everything works and how to fix it - I've been fiddling with mechanics since Meccano in the early childhood, and when you get to the motors, it's a lot more fun than any other toys. You get to have fun all your life - and save money on not needing paid service, at that.

New Car= Simple, 80% of car buyers do not give a damn about how fast it'll go if they modify it, thats why the eco cars do the most selling, alot of people want a new car because they wont have to work on it. Besides, where do you think used cars come from :P

ANYWAY.

Back to speeding tickets, I got a wreckless driving and an excessive speeding when I had my Civic SI, I swear, that thing was a cop magnet.

Ticket 1: The day I drove off the lot, with 72 miles on the clock, my foot went straight to the floor. About a minute later, I see lights. 420 dollar fine, and a 2 points. = FUCK

Ticket 2: I was following my friend up to Z-town to work on his Saab 900T ( pulling the motor ), and I suddenly decided that I was 5 years old again, so I floor it, and at about 125 miles an hour I see a cop on the other side of the highway, so I slam on the brakes, he drives across the grass to pull me over, and because he could not prove how fast I was going. Got cited for going 93 miles an hour, 2 more points and a 320 dollar fine.

As far as my Volvo 780 goes, Ive never taken it above 85. Same goes for my new Impala SS, weather has been to shitty to really open it up. However, the dealership tells me the limiter kicks in at 155mph

This is a car thread and as such it must have Porsches in it, there is no possible way to argue against it.[/URL]
Porsche guys are all the same.

My first thought when he said he had been going 208 was he was on a bike.

.snip. And so decided to give me a further ticket for my future breaking of the road laws. snip

That's utter bullshit. That can't be legal, can it? How can you punish a crime that hasn't been committed against. Even if he didn't give the ridiculous week waiver, had you gotten that ticket, assuming you got your warrant (Also assuming that's like an inspection, or a license renewal, as that term isn't used where I live), then you could have fought it in court.

That's a prime reason why I hate some cops.

I've been pulled over 3 times.

1. I was under my restricted license, meaning I couldn't drive non-family passengers for 6 months. It was like two weeks from my 6 months being up, and I was parked in my friend's driveway. He needed me to move my car down to the parking garage, which was down the road. I didn't want to go alone and have to walk back because it was late at night and he didn't live in a good neighbor, so he just jumped in; it wasn't far, like I was going to get caught anyway. So we go, the parking garage has only permit parking, apparently, so we get to the top, and this cop is just sitting there. He's like "shit, cop, turn around", and the moment I did, I got pulled over. The guy was a dick, thought we were going to smoke weed, but decided to let me off with a warning. Apparently the non-permit parking was right at the entrance- I missed the sign because there were huge SUVs parked in front of it. (Oh, and this was one of two times I illegally drove someone else. And I managed to get caught..)

2. I got pulled over for having a loud exhaust. The state trooper was really nice though, and told me just to have my exhaust system looked at, which I did the following Monday, costing me $112 to fix (although, that particular mechanic was amazing. Did the entire job from when I walked in til I drove out in under 10 minutes.)

3. The third time I actually got ticketed. I was driving on a 45mph country road off to go pick up my girlfriend. I go to pass a car, in a legal passing zone, but on a downhill. I ended up hitting 74mph, and then see this sheriff's car. I knew I was fucked, so I just started to slow down anyway. The guy was a dick, and although I wasn't exceptionally mad at getting the ticket (I expected it), he asked me where I was going, and then once I answered preceded to order me to go on the lower street. The ass was trying to tell me I couldn't drive the scenic route.

That's utter bullshit. That can't be legal, can it? How can you punish a crime that hasn't been committed against. Even if he didn't give the ridiculous week waiver, had you gotten that ticket, assuming you got your warrant (Also assuming that's like an inspection, or a license renewal, as that term isn't used where I live), then you could have fought it in court.

That's a prime reason why I hate some cops.
I figure the same as well, which is prob why he gave me the 7 day waiver thing.
As I wrote, I figured he did just to try wind me up so I'd zoom off and he could then get me for actually breaking the law.

Problem with fighting it in court - or so I've been told (this from a former cop, so I believe him) - is that it would have been held in the area I was ticketed. I'd have had to make a 1000km roundtrip to the court. The cost of that alone + at least 1 night staying there would cost more than the ticket (let alone the loss of income for taking at least 2 days off work). Something I'm betting this cop knew, which is why he could do what he did (and I've no doubt still doing).


Most cops I've met (and my uncle's an ex-cop, his son & daughter are so I've met more than my share) are pretty reasonable and actually dislike ticketing unless it's really necessary. It's just dicks like the one I encountered that get off on it that ruin the police's rep.


warrant is a road-safety inspection that have to be done every 6 months to ensure the car is still safe to drive. It's a legal requirement in NZ, where I was living at that time.

Porsche guys are all the same.At least the Ferrari guys and their like have the sense to stay away. ;)

New Car= Simple, 80% of car buyers do not give a damn about how fast it'll go if they modify it, thats why the eco cars do the most selling, alot of people want a new car because they wont have to work on it. Besides, where do you think used cars come from :P
The perfect life of a stock car driver:

As you turn 16 (17,18), your parents give you their old Toyota Corolla and buy themselves a new one. You drive it until you get a solid job and start dating with serious intents, at which point you want a new car. So, you sell it off to some Mexican and buy yourself a shiny brand new Toyota Corolla.
You and your wife drive it until your first kid grows up. When he/she does and needs a car to move around, you give him/her that car and buy yourself a new Toyota - an entirely redesigned, all-new, better and bigger Corolla.
That one serves you until the time comes for you to retire, at which point you go to a retirement home, to spend the rest of your days there, only occasionally getting out in a Toyota Corolla taxi.




Back to speeding tickets, I got a wreckless driving
Wreckful driving would be so much more fun...

The perfect life of a stock car driver:

As you turn 16 (17,18), your parents give you their old Toyota Corolla and buy themselves a new one. You drive it until you get a solid job and start dating with serious intents, at which point you want a new car. So, you sell it off to some Mexican and buy yourself a shiny brand new Toyota Corolla.
You and your wife drive it until your first kid grows up. When he/she does and needs a car to move around, you give him/her that car and buy yourself a new Toyota - an entirely redesigned, all-new, better and bigger Corolla.
That one serves you until the time comes for you to retire, at which point you go to a retirement home, to spend the rest of your days there, only occasionally getting out in a Toyota Corolla taxi.





Wreckful driving would be so much more fun...


You see that alot where I live. Nothing wrong with it, alot of kids seem to be embracing the ford focus for some reason, ( I'm only 20 so I guess I could be considered a kid, but I dont drive a focus, thank god ).

Only reason I have not started building the engine on the SS is because its still under warranty, luckily with the way I put miles on cars the warranty should be gone by august.

During my driving career, I have been pulled over so many times, it hurts thinking about it...Of course, it has been years since my "lead foot" has been overly heavy.

More often than not, I was able to charm my way out of trouble on the spot. The times that I have been sited, I fought every one in court, and had most of them dismissed (not every time, but my avarage is way heavy on the win side) either immediately, or on appeal.

My one peice of advice for fighting tickets is, don't try and argue about the officer's last radar training session, and don't try and argue the last radar maintanance service. And never, ever, tell the court you are a lawyer, while arguing these points...I say this from observation, when the lawyer in question started ticking off these points, and then made the "I am a lawyer statement" I said (too loudly apparently) "Oh boy, this guys screwed" After the magistrate and every one in the entire court room stopped chuckling, the judge completely reamed the lawyer guy out and basically told him he should know better. My case was the next one on the docket, and I basically said, I am not a lawyer, and I was speeding, but I was just kind of hoping for a break...

Case dismissed...

Sometimes luck just follows me around it seems.

My dad has a 1990 Dodge Ram truck, and he speeds in it all the time and never gets pulled over. In his words, it's because Cops clock him, and then they think their radar need to be fixed.

My old '77 Ford LTD was a good sleeper like that.

Cop: *tap tap* dang radar. I gotta take it in to the shop again. Preferably one close to a donut shop.

Valentine One Radar+LIDAR detector plus a good memory of where speed traps in the area are helps a lot. If you want to go real shady, you could go for a jammer too, but RADAR jammers are illegal and LIDAR ones are unreliable.

Also, consider the importance of appearance. A riced out civic with an absurdly large spoiler driven by a young looking guy wearing a baseball cap at an angle is a far larger cop magnet than the same individual sans cap in a silver Audi S4, even though the Audi is far more quick. If you are young do not wear a cap while driving and do not own an Impreza, otherwise you're already profiled.

Your story is completely unbelievable. Even if we ignore that, however, we're left with your statement that to go faster than 208 would have required a long, smooth straight - as if 208 mph itself wouldn't already require one hell of a long, smooth straight. You don't appear to know anything at all about high speed driving.

If you're going to make things up, you really should try and make it plausible.

Turbos are very moddable. Just upping the boost and a new ECU can get you horsepower well in the 500s. Techart, which specializes in modifying 911s, offers a 600bhp one for sale which can easily break 210.

Though to be totally fair, the speedo usually isn't so good past about 155 or so on even really expensive and high end cars, so the actual speed could have been much lower (198 or thereabouts). I've topped out my car at 155 a couple times, but it displays 160+, which is past the electronic limiter.

I married one. :D

So basically you gave yourself a life sentence without parole. :tongue:

My first thought when he said he had been going 208 was he was on a bike.

well, my first thought in reading this was "How fucking fast was he peddling?!"

So basically you gave yourself a life sentence without parole. :tongue:

Or a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. :D

Or a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. :D

LOL so true.


and you get a pair of the good handcuffs in the house, which can always be fun.

Turbos are very moddable. Just upping the boost and a new ECU can get you horsepower well in the 500s. Techart, which specializes in modifying 911s, offers a 600bhp one for sale which can easily break 210.

Though to be totally fair, the speedo usually isn't so good past about 155 or so on even really expensive and high end cars, so the actual speed could have been much lower (198 or thereabouts). I've topped out my car at 155 a couple times, but it displays 160+, which is past the electronic limiter.

When I got my Volvo 780, the speedo was off by about 20 miles an hour, talk about a fucked cable.

And on 911's, yes they are one of the most under rated super cars you can get, I knew a guy who had a mid 90s 911, he loved every bit of it. Never got to take a spin in it. It was heavily modified, you could hear that turbo spooling from a mile away. Interesting exhaust on it, I'm pretty sure it was just some 4 inch pipes from lowes coming off the cat. Sounded like Pure Sex.

With that said, 200mph is not hard to get on a high end 911, 208 would not be out of the question either.

Yours is limited at 155mph? What do you drive? I have an 08 Impala SS, and the limiter is supposed to kick in at 155, I've never had it over 100 though :( Though I would not know if I am doing 155, because the speedo only goes to 140

Also, consider the importance of appearance. A riced out civic with an absurdly large spoiler driven by a young looking guy wearing a baseball cap at an angle is a far larger cop magnet than the same individual sans cap in a silver Audi S4, even though the Audi is far more quick. If you are young do not wear a cap while driving and do not own an Impreza, otherwise you're already profiled.
Or a tuned Evo - each time I hear them, I'm sure it's a bike. Although the Imprezas are the nastiest. No one buys these car for any other reason than to speed, streetrace and show off.


Turbos are very moddable. Just upping the boost and a new ECU can get you horsepower well in the 500s. Techart, which specializes in modifying 911s, offers a 600bhp one for sale which can easily break 210.
And don't forget the RUFs! The CTR2, which did 220mph air-cooled (yeah, no surprise to bike people, but it's a car, which means you don't corner by scraping tarmac with your knee), and the 235mph CTR3 monster.


Though to be totally fair, the speedo usually isn't so good past about 155 or so on even really expensive and high end cars, so the actual speed could have been much lower (198 or thereabouts). I've topped out my car at 155 a couple times, but it displays 160+, which is past the electronic limiter.
Yes, that happens. And the speedos usually overreport rather than underreport. Still, since Porsche official specs are always understated, and that one had a bit of work done on it, I figure it probably was over 200. Kept a steady acceleration until the very moment, probably would just run out of revs (luckily it wasn't chipped).

cops also tend to give out more tickets twoards the end of the month to fill thier quota. also

i live about a block from my local police station and i speed about 25 over past it all the time cause theres NEVER and cops out around it

There are several tactics and techniques to help you avoid getting a speeding ticket. The easiest of these is of course, don't speed. But if you MUST speed, follow these simple rules:

1) 5 to 7mph over the speed limit is usually safe. People very rarely if ever get pulled over for speeding by that little.

2) If you're within 5 miles of home, you can usually get let off with a warning. Unless you're really speeding excessively, if you're close to home and polite to the police officer, he won't usually ticket you.

3) Be careful if you're out of your home state/region. Police are much more likely to pull you over if you're from out of state because you're much less likely to fight the ticket.

4) Be careful if you're driving a cop magnet. Certain cars attract cops. Certain models, colors and noise levels are more likely to get a cop's attention than others. If you're driving a bright red ford mustang that sounds like a low flying cruise missile, you should curb your speeding and stay withing 5 to 7 over.

5) Use cop magnets as cover. If someone is speeding excessively, you can usually speed nearly as fast for at least a few miles. If that someone is out of state or driving a cop magnet(as above), you can probably match his speed once he passes by. Just keep him visible in the distance so you know when he gets off the highway/gets pulled over.

6) Don't brake suddenly. If you're speeding and you see a cop in the distance, don't brake. They can tell. On the other hand, if you take your foot off the gas and let yourself coast down, they can tell that too. Coasting down is indicative of a driver who simply hasn't looked at his speedometer in a couple minutes and probably didn't intend to go that fast. On the other hand, braking, especially suddenly indicates someone who is trying to avoid getting caught speeding.

7) Be entertaining. In a worst-case scenario, if you get pulled over, be irreverent.

8) Be observant. While, this can apply to speed limit signs, it actually implies so much more. If, you live in one area long enough you learn that there are only so many good places to set up speed traps and you can use that information for out of state or out of area places in a pinch. In general, Cops are there to discourage crime, not prevent it, so when it comes to discouraging speeding they generally stick out like a sore thumb, it also doesn't help that most of them all drive the same make and model vehicles, both patrol and undercover. [Yep, I know all the good speed traps in my area. Their quite easy to spot if you know the lay of the land.]

9) When in doubt cheat. Now, this suggestion is both highly illegal and if caught will required a lot more explaining on your part, so use at your own risk. To figure out your speed, cops as you know use Radar which gives away their position by it's emissions to "clock" you and there are devices out their you can acquire that will detect those radar emissions to give you a few seconds warning you wouldn't otherwise have. Again, be forewarned most our illegal to use and if caught using bring with it severe penalties depending on the various laws of your county, state or country.

10) In closing. There is one assured method to allow you avoid getting a speeding ticket. For those of us who live in major metropolitan areas that method is getting stuck in traffic, the surest method to prevent you or anyone else for that matter from even thinking about speeding let alone even moving more then a walking pace. After, awhile you’ll be praying for God's mercy for even the chance to be able to actually do the listed speed limit let alone speeding over it. :D:rolleyes:

Or a tuned Evo - each time I hear them, I'm sure it's a bike.They really do sound like X-Rings, don't they?

I hate the acceleration on X-Rings. It's just a sudden movement forward, no feeling. Shaft-drives are much more fun.

Oddly enough, I have never been given a ticket when wearing a work uniform.

Patience does pay. After being pulled over one morning by an unmarked officer, he told me that had I not made the few extra lane changes, I would have never been pulled over. After I listened to his 15-20 minute lecture and statistics about deaths on I-95, he let me go with a warning. The only thing keeping me from telling him to 'save the lecture' and give me the ticket that day was the fact I was extremely hungover and may have possibly blown over the limit if tested.

And then there was the time I told the officer I was speeding home because I had 'the runs'. Didn't work, but he did write the ticket quickly.

Oddly enough, I have never been given a ticket when wearing a work uniform.

Patience does pay. After being pulled over one morning by an unmarked officer, he told me that had I not made the few extra lane changes, I would have never been pulled over. After I listened to his 15-20 minute lecture and statistics about deaths on I-95, he let me go with a warning. The only thing keeping me from telling him to 'save the lecture' and give me the ticket that day was the fact I was extremely hungover and may have possibly blown over the limit if tested.

And then there was the time I told the officer I was speeding home because I had 'the runs'. Didn't work, but he did write the ticket quickly.

1) What line of work?
2) Where on I-95?
3) I would've tried 'the runs' too (it's plausible for me; I have Crohn's disease), but I didn't think of it fast enough. Will try that if I'm close to home.

1) What line of work? Hotel, Restaurant, Bar (where normally we allow our friends in blue to eat for free)
2) Where on I-95? Close to the airport of course....
3) I would've tried 'the runs' too (it's plausible for me; I have Crohn's disease), but I didn't think of it fast enough. Will try that if I'm close to home. Yeah, but it didn't work--maybe I should have been more fidgety...

Now (when it happens) I just pay a traffic lawyer $120.00 and they are about 85% successful. Saves me time and points.

Turbos are very moddable. Just upping the boost and a new ECU can get you horsepower well in the 500s. Techart, which specializes in modifying 911s, offers a 600bhp one for sale which can easily break 210.

It's not the ability of the car that I doubt.

Hotel, Restaurant, Bar (where normally we allow our friends in blue to eat for free)

Close to the airport of course....

Yeah, but it didn't work--maybe I should have been more fidgety...

Now (when it happens) I just pay a traffic lawyer $120.00 and they are about 85% successful. Saves me time and points.

Snazzy jacket part of your uniform? Gotta get me one of those...

A quick glance at the map tells me I-95 passes through over a dozen states and over a dozen cities with airports. I'm in the Baltimore/Washington area myself.

Hey, at least he wrote the ticket quickly and spared the lecture!

My lawyer didn't do squat; I probably got the same point/fine reductions with him as I would have without him. Bastard charged a lot too!