NationStates Jolt Archive

So does anyone else have adult ADHD/ADD, or just ADHD/ADD? I remember I was diagnosed with it as a teen, and that begin the wonderful series of pills that either made me a zombie, made me throw up, or made me look like one of those starving kids in Africa because the pills made me lose my appetite. For awhile (from HS to undergrad) I seem to have it under control, but now I've noticing that I don't have that much control over it anymore.

I'm always fidgeting or fiddling, if I don't like the subject or the job, I become bored with it and it's hard for me to do the job or talk about the subject.

God knows I shoot my mouth off all the time. My mind also has "chatters" which never stops, sometimes my mind jump from one subject to the next, or it just comes in all at once, and I can't sleep because my mind won't shut up for me to get some sleep. Which is why I'm obsessed with finding answers to problems that I have, which annoys alot of people.

The only good thing to come out of all of this is that whenever I do find something that peaks my interest, I tend to lock in on it and research everything I can on it, watch videos, talk about it, do hands on activity etc. Of course this leads me to wanting to do things fast and quickly, never slowing down and taking the time to do things.

There's of course the fact that I'm easily distracted, which explains why I'm on the internet/computer about 5 hours a day or more, and why I have a problem with consistency.

So anyone else has ADHD/ADD, and how have you delt with it? So far I'm just letting it take me where it'll take me, but so far that plan is not working out, and I don't want to go back on the meds...

So does anyone else have adult ADHD/ADD, or just ADHD/ADD? I remember I was diagnosed with it as a teen, and that begin the wonderful series of pills that either made me a zombie, made me throw up, or made me look like one of those starving kids in Africa because the pills made me lose my appetite. For awhile (from HS to undergrad) I seem to have it under control, but now I've noticing that I don't have that much control over it anymore.

I'm always fidgeting or fiddling, if I don't like the subject or the job, I become bored with it and it's hard for me to do the job or talk about the subject.

God knows I shoot my mouth off all the time. My mind also has "chatters" which never stops, sometimes my mind jump from one subject to the next, or it just comes in all at once, and I can't sleep because my mind won't shut up for me to get some sleep. Which is why I'm obsessed with finding answers to problems that I have, which annoys alot of people.

The only good thing to come out of all of this is that whenever I do find something that peaks my interest, I tend to lock in on it and research everything I can on it, watch videos, talk about it, do hands on activity etc. Of course this leads me to wanting to do things fast and quickly, never slowing down and taking the time to do things.

There's of course the fact that I'm easily distracted, which explains why I'm on the internet/computer about 5 hours a day or more, and why I have a problem with consistency.

So anyone else has ADHD/ADD, and how have you delt with it? So far I'm just letting it take me where it'll take me, but so far that plan is not working out, and I don't want to go back on the meds...

I have adult ADHD/ADD. I take Ritalin (along with medication for other problems) and it seems to help.

Here is a good source for help coping with your ADD: http://www.additudemag.com/

EDIT: Another helpful source: http://www.drhallowell.com/

And, before it happens, let posters beware I'm going to be seriously pissed at anyone that claims ADD is fictional or "way overdiagnosed" -- especially if they lack a shred of evidence.

I have adult ADHD/ADD. I take Ritalin (along with medication for other problems) and it seems to help.

Here is a good source for help coping with your ADD: http://www.additudemag.com/

And, before it happens, let posters beware I'm going to be seriously pissed at anyone that claims ADD is fictional or "way overdiagnosed" -- especially if they lack a shred of evidence.

Will you accept Scientological evidence?

Will you accept Scientological evidence?

Sicentological, as in evidence from Scientology?

Sicentological, as in evidence from Scientology?

Yeah, they claim, very emphatically, that conditions like ADD/ADHD do not exist.

According to them, you just need vitamins, and to give them money to ask you if you've ever destroyed a civilization.

Then you'll be all better.

Will you accept Scientological evidence?

:p

To be honest, I am highly unlikely to accept any evidence that ADD doesn't exist, is fictional, is just personality, etc. Having lived with the disorder, I'm not likely to be persuaded there is no such disorder. (The overwhelming scientific consesus doesn't hurt, either. :wink:)

As to related topics, like whether ADD is overdiagnosed or ADD medication is overprescribed, I'll gladly entertain argument. But as someone well-informed on this subject, I'll be surprised is someone can actually support such an argument.

I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 7 and was on ritalin (methylphenidate [sp?]) until i was *edit*23 (about 3 years ago). The reason i stopped taking ritalin is because I wasn't insured anymore and could not afford the ungodly amount that it costs when you dont have any form of insurance.

I have all sorts of hard times paying attention to subjects,topics or anything that i am not interested in, so for the most part unless if it is important to my life I just don't bother with it. As for everything else I just developed systems to help with memory and such.

As for the mind chattering, when that starts to get out of control for me (which a lot of times keeps me up at night) I just kind of turn my mind into a radio, so instead of chatter, I just think of a song or songs I really like and sort of play them in my head (if that makes sense). It works for me most of the time if not all. That might help you out, or it might not everyone is different.

Another thing that helps me with memory is note taking. I like to write a lot of things down that I would like to remember in the future. For example, I work in a kitchen and I created a cookbook for myself that has even the most basic of recipes in it. (Balsamic vinaigrette for example) The same for the guitar lessons I take, etc.

Would any of you entertain the idea that ADHD isn't so much a 'disorder', rather just part of the human condition?

Please keep in mind I have absolutely no experience in the subject and am merely speculating.

:p

To be honest, I am highly unlikely to accept any evidence that ADD doesn't exist, is fictional, is just personality, etc. Having lived with the disorder, I'm not likely to be persuaded there is no such disorder. (The overwhelming scientific consesus doesn't hurt, either. :wink:)

As to related topics, like whether ADD is overdiagnosed or ADD medication is overprescribed, I'll gladly entertain argument. But as someone well-informed on this subject, I'll be surprised is someone can actually support such an argument.

What about ADD being caused more and more by chemicals such as artificial flavorings and colorings? I remember reading something about something like that once at a doctor's office.

I have adult ADD. I was diagnosed with it when I was 27, shortly after leaving the Navy.

At first, I was on dexedrine. After about a year, I voluntarily took myself off it. I found that I didnt need it: I had coping mechanisms in place already. Had them for years. Actually having a name for what's wrong with me, allowed me to see my coping mechanisms for what they were and that made them work even better.

I don't consider adult ADD to be a disorder. It's more like a different order. It has it's disadvantages and it's advantages and I'm fully functional. Is the fact that there are some things I'm not good at that the vast majority of people are enough to qualify me as 'disorder'? Especially when there are benefits? I don't think s.... Ooh! A bunny!

My mind also has "chatters" which never stops, sometimes my mind jump from one subject to the next, or it just comes in all at once, and I can't sleep because my mind won't shut up for me to get some sleep. Which is why I'm obsessed with finding answers to problems that I have, which annoys alot of people.

The only good thing to come out of all of this is that whenever I do find something that peaks my interest, I tend to lock in on it and research everything I can on it, watch videos, talk about it, do hands on activity etc.

I have never been diagnosed with ADHD/ADD, either as a child or as an adult, but I can relate to many of the "symptoms" described here.
Including bad memory and restlessness/easily bored.

The sleeping problems was a very interesting read.
Will continue to monitor this thread in search of a way to more easily help getting to sleep.
What I´m doing now is read until my eyes hurt and I can't keep them open anymore.
And then just let the thoughts come and go without trying to focus on them,
easier said than done.

Say, do you also find a need to always elaborate on something said?
In order to better understand exactly what it is that is being discussed and to make it clear to others.
In short, finding the words lacking in adequate description?

s.... Ooh! A bunny!

Bunny, where?! *wanders off from thread*

Oh look, a plastic bag! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxQvc2Q8kEg)

Would any of you entertain the idea that ADHD isn't so much a 'disorder', rather just part of the human condition?

Please keep in mind I have absolutely no experience in the subject and am merely speculating.

Can you please elaborate on the human condition part?

I have never been diagnosed with ADHD/ADD, either as a child or as an adult, but I can relate to many of the "symptoms" described here.
Including bad memory and restlessness/easily bored.

The sleeping problems was a very interesting read.
Will continue to monitor this thread in search of a way to more easily help getting to sleep.
What I´m doing now is read until my eyes hurt and I can't keep them open anymore.
And then just let the thoughts come and go without trying to focus on them,
easier said than done.

Say, do you also find a need to always elaborate on something said?
In order to better understand exactly what it is that is being discussed and to make it clear to others.
In short, finding the words lacking in adequate description?

So far, listening to Coast to Coast AM while falling asleep seems to be working for me. So I may keep doing that. Yea, I do tend to elaborate on the things that I said, especially when people take too long to react to what I said.

Now I go back to the bunny in the plastic bag...or something...

*wanders away again*

I read the first sentance and completely lost all interest.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/distractebunny.png

tl;dr

Sorry, I have a short attention span.

I think they just want to make up acronyms to sell pills.

And, before it happens, let posters beware I'm going to be seriously pissed at anyone that claims ADD is fictional or "way overdiagnosed" -- especially if they lack a shred of evidence.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

Ooh! Kinky!

On the one hand, I'm sure ADD and ADHD are real conditions. On the other hand, I once saw a chart comparing ADD and ADHD diagnoses with the rise in female schoolteachers over the past 40 years (formerly about 50%, 90+% of K-8 teachers today are women in many states). That's only a correlation, of course, but I can see where the skepticism comes from.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

Correlation does not equal causation. Until you can provide repeatable statistics to back up the idea that increased discipline = less ADHD (in my experience, the opposite happens - ADHD kids become even more restless when you apply pressure on them) then your point isn't valid.

Can you please elaborate on the human condition part?

Pretty much what LG was getting at.

I don't consider adult ADD to be a disorder. It's more like a different order. It has it's disadvantages and it's advantages and I'm fully functional.

We are human beings, we are not built the same, but rather a mix of whoever came before us. There a bound to be discrepancies be it the colour of ones skin or eyes or how their brain is wired. I'm just a little skeptical I guess when society considers ADD/ADHD to be evil like cancer or Satan and needs to be 'cured'.

Correlation does not equal causation. Until you can provide repeatable statistics to back up the idea that increased discipline = less ADHD (in my experience, the opposite happens - ADHD kids become even more restless when you apply pressure on them) then your point isn't valid.

The problem is that you cannot provide the repeatable statistics, simply because you cannot do a blind study on the population. Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.

So anyone else has ADHD/ADD, and how have you delt with it? So far I'm just letting it take me where it'll take me, but so far that plan is not working out, and I don't want to go back on the meds...

Me. I self-diagnosed when I was a teenager, but my mother got pissed off at me for wanting to take drugs. So I self-medicated.

I find it something of a cognitive mixed blessing. Any sort of heightened stimulation or novelty of sensation makes me more focused, so I got through college and much of high-school by ignoring my studies and then cramming the night before a test, or writing papers the night before/ morning of.

And even the night before I couldn't just sit down and write a paper. I had to have a drink before sitting down to write, then keep drinking while writing. And I always got A's, unless I thought I new the subject well enough that I could write without drinking. Then my papers would be a meandering jumble with no organization.

But I think the ADD actually helped. While listening to lectures or reading the about the subject I had a lot of free-association going on, and I always seemed to have a novel take on a subject that earned me much higher grades than I might otherwise have gotten.

But for me, the biggest problem has always been other people. Teachers who think that cramming, inability to focus, and inconsistent homework indicate laziness and stupidity and think that the solution is a less stimulating environment or more boring work that is easier. Bosses who think that standing around for a few minutes means you're not working, despite the fact that more work is done at the end of your shift than the shift of any other two employees. Classmates and co-workers who think you're a snob because you've gotten used to their thinking that your inability to stick to a subject is annoying, even though you're just talking about a more over-arching subject, and so now you've just stopped trying to hold a conversation.

Once I was making my own living I went to a neurologist and he prescribed Provigil off-label. It's great because it isn't a stimulant, it just makes you more alert. It worked so well that my wife sent him flowers. Now I work for the IRS. I can't imagine a less stimulating environment, but I'm doing fine. I've even been training the new recruits and my reputation, instead of being "wierd loner-slacker" is now "life-saver/ go-getter."

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

That's because a couple of decades ago a large percentage of the population could provide for themselves well with a blue-collar income and a high-school education. It wasn't necessary, or even particularly desirable to be able to spend hours focusing on dry unstimulating data.

People with ADD were well adapted to mindless factory jobs where their own minds were free to wander, or in the arts where their wandering thoughts led to such novelty of perception that it was entertaining, or enlightening to others.

It's just like how there are no lactose intolerant hunter-gatherers, because hunter-gatherers don't drink milk. Once you put their populations in the post-industrial West, it turns out that over two thirds of them are lactose intolerant.

Or industrial/ agricultural societies have no such thing as dyslexia. Some people read well, some people don't. If you don't, then you work on a farm or in a factory and you watch TV for entertainment.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.

Your opinion means nothing when it has no basis in fact. ADHD is not simply misbehaviour. It implies tangible cognitive differences between a sufferer and a neurotypical individual. In my experience, if you discipline a child with genuine ADHD, they will get worse. In my opinion this is because they feel growing frustration at their lack of ability to control themselves.

If you cannot look at the facts objectively without your political bias showing, don't look at them at all.

Yeah, they claim, very emphatically, that conditions like ADD/ADHD do not exist.

According to them, you just need vitamins, and to give them money to ask you if you've ever destroyed a civilization.

Then you'll be all better.

If ADD doesn't exist, then how do they explain the fact that I got 5 pages into Dianetics, then got bored and threw it away?

I know how the library explains it in their strongly worded letters, but how to Scientologists explain it?

The problem is that you cannot provide the repeatable statistics, simply because you cannot do a blind study on the population. Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.

You went to the Michael Savage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpmTivdGl54) school of Neuroscience, didn't you?

You went to the Michael Savage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpmTivdGl54) school of Neuroscience, didn't you?

Naturally, he is far too extreme for my tastes, but he has a point. If there is money to be made, people exploit it - especially in the scientific field where people can get research funding if they happen to find out that chocolate increases your risk of cancer, and the like.

Of course, political bias gets into it as well. The Universities are full of lefties, and so would have a left-wing bias, and would thus not do research that may turn out positive for right-wing ideas, such as spanking.

I don't think I have ADD/ADHD but if anybody is planning to shave a dog I am up for it. I also like shiny things.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

ADD was only added to the DSM in 1980. Might explain why we didn't have anyone with it before...

It formerly went under other names, ranging from hyperkinetic reaction of childhood to minimal brain damage/dysfunction

ADD was only added to the DSM in 1980. Might explain why we didn't have anyone with it before...

It formerly went under other names, ranging from hyperkinetic reaction of childhood to minimal brain damage/dysfunction

" A little brain damage can help." -George Carlin

" A little brain damage can help." -George Carlin

Further proof that Carlin really did know everything.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

Yes, because spanking me will get me interested in subjects that I found boring in school. :rolleyes: It has nothing to do with motivation, or me acting out, If I didn't find the subject interesting, I just didn't bother with it. God knows I tried in the past, but forcing yourself is like pushing against a brick wall.

Pretty much what LG was getting at.



We are human beings, we are not built the same, but rather a mix of whoever came before us. There a bound to be discrepancies be it the colour of ones skin or eyes or how their brain is wired. I'm just a little skeptical I guess when society considers ADD/ADHD to be evil like cancer or Satan and needs to be 'cured'.

I do admit that I think my obsessive nature is an asset, it forces me to not give up till I find solutions to problems, so I will admit that.

-snip-

You sound like me back in HS and college, I was a HUGE procrastinator, I'd get As and Bs on reports, papers and homework and I've done them the night before they're due. I'd either fall asleep in classes or just let my mind chatter take me where it will during lecturing classes. However, if a class is truly engaging, then I'll pay attention. Which is why I loved my Current Event classes and Abnormal Psychology classes. We'd just sit around and talk about the subject.

Your opinion means nothing when it has no basis in fact. ADHD is not simply misbehaviour. It implies tangible cognitive differences between a sufferer and a neurotypical individual. In my experience, if you discipline a child with genuine ADHD, they will get worse. In my opinion this is because they feel growing frustration at their lack of ability to control themselves.

If you cannot look at the facts objectively without your political bias showing, don't look at them at all.

Hear hear.

If ADD doesn't exist, then how do they explain the fact that I got 5 pages into Dianetics, then got bored and threw it away?

Maybe you just thought it was bullshit and threw it away? :p

You went to the Michael Savage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpmTivdGl54) school of Neuroscience, didn't you?

Wow, I watched that video and I now want to punch Michael Savage in the face.

I don't think I have ADD/ADHD but if anybody is planning to shave a dog I am up for it. I also like shiny things.

We can shave my mutt and put him in aluminum foil!

Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.
The Universities are full of lefties, and so would have a left-wing bias, and would thus not do research that may turn out positive for right-wing ideas, such as spanking.
Research doesn't work like that.

You're implying that specific research which will prove corporal punishment to be a good thing is being avoided by research universities.

That makes no sense.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?
no.

all that did is make kids with undiagnosed add/adhd resentful and violent.

it didnt change their underlying problems.

So does anyone else have adult ADHD/ADD, or just ADHD/ADD? I remember I was diagnosed with it as a teen, and that begin the wonderful series of pills that either made me a zombie, made me throw up, or made me look like one of those starving kids in Africa because the pills made me lose my appetite. For awhile (from HS to undergrad) I seem to have it under control, but now I've noticing that I don't have that much control over it anymore.

I'm always fidgeting or fiddling, if I don't like the subject or the job, I become bored with it and it's hard for me to do the job or talk about the subject.

God knows I shoot my mouth off all the time. My mind also has "chatters" which never stops, sometimes my mind jump from one subject to the next, or it just comes in all at once, and I can't sleep because my mind won't shut up for me to get some sleep. Which is why I'm obsessed with finding answers to problems that I have, which annoys alot of people.

The only good thing to come out of all of this is that whenever I do find something that peaks my interest, I tend to lock in on it and research everything I can on it, watch videos, talk about it, do hands on activity etc. Of course this leads me to wanting to do things fast and quickly, never slowing down and taking the time to do things.

There's of course the fact that I'm easily distracted, which explains why I'm on the internet/computer about 5 hours a day or more, and why I have a problem with consistency.

So anyone else has ADHD/ADD, and how have you delt with it? So far I'm just letting it take me where it'll take me, but so far that plan is not working out, and I don't want to go back on the meds...
not me, but a friend of mine has. she's learning to control herself with our help. but there are times she backslides. I don't think she's taking meds tho.

not me, but a friend of mine has. she's learning to control herself with our help. but there are times she backslides. I don't think she's taking meds tho.

Ugh, I would not recommend the meds, not at all... *shudders*

Ugh, I would not recommend the meds, not at all... *shudders*

well, I haven't seen her take meds. and her mother is really glad she found something she can 'focus' on. we all kinda watch out for her... she can get dangeriously distracted at times.

We can shave my mutt and put him in aluminum foil!

That does sound like a lot of fun.

A friend of mine is on a special diet for ADD/ADHD, she is 39 and says it helps very much, she also takes Ritalin but says the diet helps, if she just takes Ritilin she feels very spacey but Ritalin plus the diet makes her happy.

I don't think I would restrict my diet as much as she is if it weren't working for her, but I have read the diet doesn't work......so I don't know. You might read up on it.

On the one hand, I'm sure ADD and ADHD are real conditions. On the other hand, I once saw a chart comparing ADD and ADHD diagnoses with the rise in female schoolteachers over the past 40 years (formerly about 50%, 90+% of K-8 teachers today are women in many states). That's only a correlation, of course, but I can see where the skepticism comes from.
Rise in female schoolteachers? Schoolteachers have always tended towards being more likely female than male in the US, given that it was one of the few careers a single woman could have way back when....

A friend of mine is on a special diet for ADD/ADHD, she is 39 and says it helps very much, she also takes Ritalin but says the diet helps, if she just takes Ritilin she feels very spacey but Ritalin plus the diet makes her happy.

I don't think I would restrict my diet as much as she is if it weren't working for her, but I have read the diet doesn't work......so I don't know. You might read up on it.
Feingold?

Hmm Kat is a school teacher, maybe she'll give us her opinion on ADHD/ADD from a teacher's perspective. *holds up puppy who gives her the puppy eye look*

Rise in female schoolteachers? Schoolteachers have always tended towards being more likely female than male in the US, given that it was one of the few careers a single woman could have way back when....


Feingold?
I was curious about that myself...they've been actively recruiting males for decades now. As far as I know, education (particularly primary, but definatly also secondary) has always been a female-dominated world.

Some kids have it. Some don't. I'm not qualified, nor is the guidance counselor, to determine who has it -- that requires a doctor's expertise.

Redirection seemed to work well in the cases where I had a kid who was clearly diagnosed by a professional with ADD/ADHD. Then again, redirection works with pesty kids who DON'T have a diagnosed condition.

I don't suffer from ADD or ADHD. But my mother was diagnosed 3 years ago with ADD. She took meds for a while, then abruptly stopped. She said they made her woozy and she couldn't concentrate (irony?). I guess it must be bothersome to be diagnosed at such an age as my mom's. She was in her early 40s.

She did tell me one thing, she knew, for the longest time, that she had ADD. When she was a child, she had a lot of problems from the condition. Of course, when my mom was a kid, ADD wasn't something diagnosed as it is now. (or at least not to my knowledge)

I was diagnosed as being 'hyperactive' once, about 10 years ago. I dunno if that means anything.

I was diagnosed as being 'hyperactive' once, about 10 years ago. I dunno if that means anything.

The peak of Sunny Delight popularity.

Coincidence? I think not.

The peak of Sunny Delight popularity.

Coincidence? I think not.

Nah, I couldn't stand sunny delight.

The problem is that you cannot provide the repeatable statistics, simply because you cannot do a blind study on the population. Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.
Ah. So you advocate child abuse. Got it.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

On the one hand, I'm sure ADD and ADHD are real conditions. On the other hand, I once saw a chart comparing ADD and ADHD diagnoses with the rise in female schoolteachers over the past 40 years (formerly about 50%, 90+% of K-8 teachers today are women in many states). That's only a correlation, of course, but I can see where the skepticism comes from.

The problem is that you cannot provide the repeatable statistics, simply because you cannot do a blind study on the population. Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.

What about ADD being caused more and more by chemicals such as artificial flavorings and colorings? I remember reading something about something like that once at a doctor's office.


Meh. Let's look at some actual facts, rather than indulging in rank speculation and/or blaming a vast left-wing/pharmacuetical conspiracy that rivals fake moon landings.

The science behind the existence and symptoms of ADHD is overwhelming. This link (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science) shows reports proving the existence of ADD/ADHD by:
American Medical Association
Surgeon General of the United States
National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
2002 International Consensus Statement on AD/HD (roughly 100 scientists worldwide)
American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP)
Mayo Clinic

See also Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD:Science over Cynicism (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths); National Institute of Mental Health: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm)

The NIMH link contains a short summary of studies disproving the theory (often cited here) that ADD is just a matter of food additives and sugar:

Food Additives and Sugar.
It has been suggested that attention disorders are caused by refined sugar or food additives, or that symptoms of ADHD are exacerbated by sugar or food additives. In 1982, the National Institutes of Health held a scientific consensus conference to discuss this issue. It was found that diet restrictions helped about 5 percent of children with ADHD, mostly young children who had food allergies.3 A more recent study on the effect of sugar on children, using sugar one day and a sugar substitute on alternate days, without parents, staff, or children knowing which substance was being used, showed no significant effects of the sugar on behavior or learning.4

In another study, children whose mothers felt they were sugar-sensitive were given aspartame as a substitute for sugar. Half the mothers were told their children were given sugar, half that their children were given aspartame. The mothers who thought their children had received sugar rated them as more hyperactive than the other children and were more critical of their behavior.5

3 Consensus Development Panel. Defined Diets and Childhood Hyperactivity. National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference Summary, Volume 4, Number 3, 1982.

4 Wolraich M, Milich R, Stumbo P, Schultz F. The effects of sucrose ingestion on the behavior of hyperactive boys. Pediatrics, 1985; 106; 657-682.

5 Hoover DW, Milich R. Effects of sugar ingestion expectancies on mother-child interaction. Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology, 1994; 22; 501-515.

The NIMH link also contains discussion of studies regarding a physical basis for ADHD:

Recent Studies on Causes of ADHD.
Some knowledge of the structure of the brain is helpful in understanding the research scientists are doing in searching for a physical basis for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. One part of the brain that scientists have focused on in their search is the frontal lobes of the cerebrum. The frontal lobes allow us to solve problems, plan ahead, understand the behavior of others, and restrain our impulses. The two frontal lobes, the right and the left, communicate with each other through the corpus callosum, (nerve fibers that connect the right and left frontal lobes).

The basal ganglia are the interconnected gray masses deep in the cerebral hemisphere that serve as the connection between the cerebrum and the cerebellum and, with the cerebellum, are responsible for motor coordination. The cerebellum is divided into three parts. The middle part is called the vermis.

All of these parts of the brain have been studied through the use of various methods for seeing into or imaging the brain. These methods include functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) positron emission tomography (PET), and single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT). The main or central psychological deficits in those with ADHD have been linked through these studies. By 2002 the researchers in the NIMH Child Psychiatry Branch had studied 152 boys and girls with ADHD, matched with 139 age- and gender-matched controls without ADHD. The children were scanned at least twice, some as many as four times over a decade. As a group, the ADHD children showed 3-4 percent smaller brain volumes in all regions—the frontal lobes, temporal gray matter, caudate nucleus, and cerebellum.

This study also showed that the ADHD children who were on medication had a white matter volume that did not differ from that of controls. Those never-medicated patients had an abnormally small volume of white matter. The white matter consists of fibers that establish long-distance connections between brain regions. It normally thickens as a child grows older and the brain matures.9

Although this long-term study used MRI to scan the children's brains, the researchers stressed that MRI remains a research tool and cannot be used to diagnose ADHD in any given child. This is true for other neurological methods of evaluating the brain, such as PET and SPECT.

9 Castellanos FX, Lee PP, Sharp W, Jeffries NO, Greenstein DK, Clasen LS, Blumenthal JD, James RS, Ebens CI, Walter JM, Zijdenbos A, Evans AC, Giedd JN, Rapoport JL. Developmental trajectories of brain volume abnormalities in children and adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Journal of the American Medical Association, 2002, 288:14:1740-1748.

Also from my Myths (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths#top) link:

Myth # 1: AD/HD is Not a Real Disorder

This is a common refrain expressed by individuals who assert that the psychiatric community, in concert with pharmaceutical companies, created AD/HD to drum up business for private practices and to increase profits for drug companies. According to the National Institutes of Health, the Surgeon General of the United States, and an international community of clinical researchers, psychiatrists and physicians, there is general consensus that AD/HD is a valid disorder with severe, lifelong consequences (NIH, 2000; U.S. Surgeon General's Report, 2001). Studies over the past 100 years demonstrate that AD/HD is a chronic disorder that has a negative impact on virtually every aspect of daily social, emotional, academic and work functioning (Barkley, 1998). Studies show that children with AD/HD have higher rates of other psychiatric disorders, higher frequency of hospitalizations, emergency room visits and total medical costs compared to individuals without AD/HD (Liebson et al., 2001).

Adolescent outcomes of children with AD/HD show that they are more likely to drop out of school, to rarely complete college, to have fewer friends and to participate in antisocial activities more than children without AD/HD (Barkley, Fischer, Edelbrock, & Smallish, 1990). Rates of cigarette, alcohol and marijuana use appear more often in those with both AD/HD and conduct disorders, and were two to five times more frequent than in adolescents with AD/HD alone or for those without it. Later in life, adults with AD/HD have employment difficulties, suffer from depression and personality disorders, have multiple auto accidents, and have high rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancies compared to individuals without AD/HD (Fischer, Barkley, Smallish, & Fletcher, 2002). Overwhelming evidence suggests that AD/HD is a real disorder with serious consequences.

Myth # 5: Poor Parenting Causes AD/HD

This misconception may be the most difficult to dispel because parenting characteristics (i.e., being critical, commanding, negative) and poor management do exacerbate AD/HD and increase the risk for comorbid disorders (e.g., oppositional defiance and conduct disorders; Barkley, 1998). Twin studies exploring the contribution of environmental factors (e.g., parenting practices, parental psychopathology) find that genetic factors and not a shared environment account for the greatest variance in AD/HD symptoms -- about 80 percent (Goodman & Stevenson, 1989). While management difficulties influence parent-child conflicts and the maintenance of hyperactivity and oppositional problems in young children (Barkley et al., 1990), Barkley (1998) concludes that "theories of causation of AD/HD can no longer be based solely or even primarily on social factors, such as parental characteristics, caregiving abilities, child management, or other family environmental factors" (p. 176).

Other factors may play a causal role in the individual differences in symptoms of AD/HD, including exposure to environmental toxins (e.g., elevated blood lead, prenatal exposure to alcohol and tobacco smoke), but not all children exposed to these risk factors have high rates of hyperactivity, nor do all children with AD/HD have these risk factors (Barkley, 1998). Furthermore, pregnancy and birth complications are not more frequent in children with AD/HD compared to normal children. Although other factors (e.g., family adversity, poverty, educational/occupational status, home environment, poor nutrition, environmental toxins, ineffective childrearing practices) do not appear to have a significant contribution to the development of AD/HD symptoms (see Barkley, 1998 for a review) these factors contribute to comorbid disorders and complicate treatment effectiveness.

Johnston and Freeman (2002) identified a number of inaccurate or non-scientifically-based parent beliefs about the causes of AD/HD including: allergic reactions or sensitivity to foods, family problems like alcoholism or marital discord, high sugar consumption, ineffective discipline, lazy learning habits, a lack of motivation, etc. In this study, inaccurate or "false beliefs" were associated with parental attributions that children were responsible for their AD/HD symptoms (symptoms are intentional and children can control their symptoms), and with the use of less effective treatment (e.g., diet control). Parent perceptions and beliefs about the nature of AD/HD are related to treatment outcome (Hoza et al., 2000). Furthermore, attributions that AD/HD symptoms are intentional and controllable often result in harsh, critical and punitive parenting practices (Johnston & Patenaude, 1994). These misperceptions are frequently addressed in parent training components of multimodal treatment plans.

Thanks for the links TCT, ADDitude has some really interesting articles. :)

Thanks for the links TCT, ADDitude has some really interesting articles. :)

You are most welcome. I hope some of the information is helpful. :wink:

Diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type (it was just ADD back then) at 6. My father is extremely ADHD and bi-polar, also diagnosed as a kid; everyone agrees my grandmother was probably ADHD, though never diagnosed. I've been on and off medication for the past 18 years or so. I've also been in therapy for a long time and have worked with an organizational specialist to develop more coping strategies. The combination, along with just mentally and physically maturing, has made a dramatic difference in my ability to manage my ADD in adulthood. I would say that at this point, my ADD has less of a negative impact on my life than my cripplingly low self-esteem, which was cultivated in part by years and years of trouble in school and teachers telling me I was lazy/stupid.

TCT, you never cases of ADD or ADHD before a couple of decades ago. Interestingly, this was also an age where you saw a decrease in the application of proper discipline. What do you have to say about that? Could it not be argued that the increase in this disorder might be just as easily solved by bringing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking) back?

You also didn't see many medications for schizophrenia. Only 60 or so years ago many, if not most, doctors thought it was impossible to operate on the human heart, until Alfred Blalock did it in the 40's, curing "blue baby syndrome". Technology changes.

On the one hand, I'm sure ADD and ADHD are real conditions. On the other hand, I once saw a chart comparing ADD and ADHD diagnoses with the rise in female schoolteachers over the past 40 years (formerly about 50%, 90+% of K-8 teachers today are women in many states). That's only a correlation, of course, but I can see where the skepticism comes from.

As a female schoolteacher with ADD, I can tell you that in my experience, at least, there is a large and noticeable difference between children who are ADD/ADHD and children who have simply been allowed to run wild.

We are human beings, we are not built the same, but rather a mix of whoever came before us. There a bound to be discrepancies be it the colour of ones skin or eyes or how their brain is wired. I'm just a little skeptical I guess when society considers ADD/ADHD to be evil like cancer or Satan and needs to be 'cured'.

You could say this about any disorder or condition people are born with. Some people are born with extremely poor eyesight; that's a natural variation. Should we not offer them eyeglasses, because nature intended them to be blind?

People who are skeptical about "labeling" and "curing" conditions of the mind are often unfamiliar with psychology, psychiatry and the rigorous standards of the DSM. The DSM explicitly states that for ADHD to be diagnosed, a certain number of symptoms must be present in multiple settings over a period of time, these symptoms must have been present before the age of seven, and the disorder must significantly impair the individual's life.

Furthermore, given the left-wing bias in most research institutions, it doesn't seem likely that they would be willing to do research that would prove that spanking is the only proper form of discipline.

In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain.

You're quite right in your first assertion. Any experiment that is performed with a predetermined outcome ("spanking is the only proper form of discipline") is unscientific, biased and useless.

In my opinion, misbehavior (and, to be ridiculous, that is all mental retardation is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that getting the wrong answer is associated with physical pain.

I have adult ADHD/ADD. I take Ritalin (along with medication for other problems) and it seems to help.

Here is a good source for help coping with your ADD: http://www.additudemag.com/

EDIT: Another helpful source: http://www.drhallowell.com/

ADHD is a way over diagnosed made up disease... :p

Ah. So you advocate child abuse. Got it.

The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse though; or are you one of those lefties that think that any form of spanking is child abuse?

Also from my Myths (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths#top) link:

TCT, I happened to read that, and noticed that the site is linked with CHADD. Looked at the CHADD site, and couldn't help but notice that the video linked to on the home page depicted a Democratic Congresswoman. Strange? I don't think so.

You're quite right in your first assertion. Any experiment that is performed with a predetermined outcome ("spanking is the only proper form of discipline") is unscientific, biased and useless.

In my opinion, misbehavior (and, to be ridiculous, that is all mental retardation is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that getting the wrong answer is associated with physical pain.

Ryadn, my point was that the scientific institutions are unlikely to do any research on spanking period because they might find out that it actually is beneficial for children, period.

Research doesn't work like that.

You're implying that specific research which will prove corporal punishment to be a good thing is being avoided by research universities.

That makes no sense.

That does make sense. The research universities are full of lefties who associate spanking with child abuse. Anything that might prove them wrong is avoided.

no.

all that did is make kids with undiagnosed add/adhd resentful and violent.

it didnt change their underlying problems.

In my parents generation, you didn't find people being violent. Violence was a rarity, and when it occurred, it made front page news. You didn't find violence because people knew the difference between right and wrong, and were disciplined.

In my parents generation, you didn't find people being violent. Violence was a rarity, and when it occurred, it made front page news. You didn't find violence because people knew the difference between right and wrong, and were disciplined.

im from your parents generation.

you are wrong. add boys were spanked all the time and it did them no good whatsoever. its just that at that time wild boy behavior was considered normal.

im from your parents generation.

you are wrong. add boys were spanked all the time and it did them no good whatsoever. its just that at that time wild boy behavior was considered normal.

Yes, I'll agree, wild boy behaviour was definitely considered normal, but you didn't find violence to the degree that we have today from so called "normal" people.

Yes, I'll agree, wild boy behaviour was definitely considered normal, but you didn't find violence to the degree that we have today from so called "normal" people.
the 2 have little to do with each other or the topic at hand.

im from your parents generation.

you are wrong. add boys were spanked all the time and it did them no good whatsoever. its just that at that time wild boy behavior was considered normal.

Ah! But what is normal? My brother and I are the only people in our immediate family to not require any sort of vision correction. Does that now make us not normal?

You could say this about any disorder or condition people are born with. Some people are born with extremely poor eyesight; that's a natural variation. Should we not offer them eyeglasses, because nature intended them to be blind?

I'm no geneticist but I don't really think nature really has any sort of intent. I'm not suggesting we don't make life easier for people. As we both agree that there is a fair amount of variation across the board the ability to understand 'normal' becomes much harder. I feel we should try and get a better understanding what is and isn't normal in regards to the human species.

People who are skeptical about "labeling" and "curing" conditions of the mind are often unfamiliar with psychology, psychiatry and the rigorous standards of the DSM. The DSM explicitly states that for ADHD to be diagnosed, a certain number of symptoms must be present in multiple settings over a period of time, these symptoms must have been present before the age of seven, and the disorder must significantly impair the individual's life.

Thank you for the clarification.

Ah! But what is normal? My brother and I are the only people in our immediate family to not require any sort of vision correction. Does that now make us not normal?


i dont understand your question in the context of my answer to AP.

That does make sense. The research universities are full of lefties who associate spanking with child abuse. Anything that might prove them wrong is avoided.
If a piece of research proves corporal punishment to be useful to child development, then it has, by definition, already been researched. You're saying that universities are avoiding research because they already know the outcome of the research they are trying to avoid.

That's more than ass-backwards.

In my parents generation, you didn't find people being violent. Violence was a rarity, and when it occurred, it made front page news. You didn't find violence because people knew the difference between right and wrong, and were disciplined.

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm going to have to smack you with my big rubber TROLL stamp. Which will also provide excellent discipline!

I was diagnosed with Borderline ADD back in I believe second grade. I'm pretty sure I *am* full-blown, but was diagnosed as such because of the attention that recieved during testing. I'm generally a very mellow person, but I can be worked up pretty easily if provoked -- I easily wore down any teacher if I was invested enough (read: enthusiastic) and more often than not I ended up being literally dragged to the principal's office.

Long story short, medication did nothing (Me being a husky child may have thrown off the dosage) and I developed several psychoses due to frustration.

I was going to have a point, but I, in all seriousness, forgot what.

I was going to have a point, but I, in all seriousness, forgot what.

Ahh that happens to me alot, I start talking, and then I forget what the point of my speech was.

We can shave my mutt and put him in aluminum foil!
You know what? Sigged, because that was just too funny. XD

You know what? Sigged, because that was just too funny. XD

Thank ya! :D

The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse though; or are you one of those lefties that think that any form of spanking is child abuse?
You're the one who advocated physical pain as a proper way to deal with a medical condition. Your exact words were, "In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain." http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14357885&postcount=23 Or are you one of those righties who pigeonholes people with labels intended as insults to deflect attention from the uninformed and frankly ridiculous and abusive things you actually say?

You're advocating force and violence against children because that's the way it was done, and you're surprised that this generation has learned that might = right and the best way to deal with a problem is to bludgeon it or intimidate the weak?

How very amusing.

You're advocating force and violence against children because that's the way it was done, and you're surprised that this generation has learned that might = right and the best way to deal with a problem is to bludgeon it or intimidate the weak?

How very amusing.

What I wonder is, if pain is such an effective learning tool that it can teach kids to stop being ADHD, why don't we use it in more situations? I mean, why limit such an effective method to childhood? Think of the applications it could have. Miss a deadline at work? Boss smacks your hand with a ruler. Run a red light? Two or three licks with a belt ought to teach you. Forget to stop by the store on your way home for milk? Husband/wife shoots a rubber band at your eye. Not to mention how we could clean up the streets! Get a job if you don't want to be kicked in the stomach, you lazy schizophrenic junkie bum!

Run a red light? Two or three licks with a belt ought to teach you.

I wonder how many people would prefer that to a ticket... ;)

I wonder how many people would prefer that to a ticket... ;)

Well there would probably be some people who deliberately started to run red lights.

You're the one who advocated physical pain as a proper way to deal with a medical condition. Your exact words were, "In my opinion, misbehaviour (and, to be honest, that is all ADD & ADHD is) is a learned condition, and can be unlearned if children figure out that it is associated with physical pain." http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14357885&postcount=23 Or are you one of those righties who pigeonholes people with labels intended as insults to deflect attention from the uninformed and frankly ridiculous and abusive things you actually say?

Pray tell, where is the inconsistency? This is what I said

"If children figure out that it is associated with physical pain"

I also said

"The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse"

What am I saying? The proper application of spanking causes pain. Pain =/= Child Abuse. Child Abuse is where you get hoses, fan belts, planks of wood, and so on and you beat the child to a pulp. A couple of short, sharp, painful slaps with an open hand or belt isn't child abuse.

That is unless you are one of those lefties that think that all forms of spanking is child abuse.

You're advocating force and violence against children because that's the way it was done, and you're surprised that this generation has learned that might = right and the best way to deal with a problem is to bludgeon it or intimidate the weak?

How very amusing.

I am advocating it because pain is a very good teacher. Why don't you put your hands in the fire? Because it hurts.

BTW, spanking was used for thousands of years. This generation is the first where spanking hasn't been used. Your conclusions are not all that stable, and I could argue, based on anecdotal evidence that spanking worked.

What I wonder is, if pain is such an effective learning tool that it can teach kids to stop being ADHD, why don't we use it in more situations? I mean, why limit such an effective method to childhood? Think of the applications it could have. Miss a deadline at work? Boss smacks your hand with a ruler. Run a red light? Two or three licks with a belt ought to teach you. Forget to stop by the store on your way home for milk? Husband/wife shoots a rubber band at your eye. Not to mention how we could clean up the streets! Get a job if you don't want to be kicked in the stomach, you lazy schizophrenic junkie bum!

Well, they do use it in Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

Pray tell, where is the inconsistency? This is what I said

"If children figure out that it is associated with physical pain"

I also said

"The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse"

What am I saying? The proper application of spanking causes pain. Pain =/= Child Abuse. Child Abuse is where you get hoses, fan belts, planks of wood, and so on and you beat the child to a pulp. A couple of short, sharp, painful slaps with an open hand or belt isn't child abuse.

That is unless you are one of those lefties that think that all forms of spanking is child abuse.


Your argument relys on the ridiculous assumption that ADD/ADHD either don't exist or can be cured. I laugh at your pathetic argument.

Your argument relys on the ridiculous assumption that ADD/ADHD either don't exist or can be cured. I laugh at your pathetic argument.

Well, it was only recognised in 1980, so it is far too recent for me to firmly believe that it exists. It's recognition came along with the first generation not to get spanked, and the shift in Western countries toward banning spanking. Where in the past, misbehaviour was dealt to with a paddle to the backside, it was now being called a "disorder."

Even if such a thing existed, I wouldn't consider it a disorder either.

Well, it was only recognised in 1980, so it is far too recent for me to firmly believe that it exists. It's recognition came along with the first generation not to get spanked, and the shift in Western countries toward banning spanking. Where in the past, misbehaviour was dealt to with a paddle to the backside, it was now being called a "disorder."

Even if such a thing existed, I wouldn't consider it a disorder either.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

*blames rise in misbehaviour on increased CO2 levels*

Well, they do use it in Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

Caning is only used by approximately 20% of households in Singapore (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#cite_note-0)). By your logic, then, ADHD/ADD prevalence should be approximately 20% lower in Singapore than in a nation where spanking children is illegal (such as the UK). The ADHD prevalence in the UK is approximately 1.7% of schoolchildren (source (http://www.sign.ac.uk/guidelines/fulltext/52/section2.html)). The appoximate prevelance in Singapore is 5.27% (source (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:53riNIyBqkwJ:www.spark.org.sg/tips/what%2520is%2520ADHD.pdf+adhd+singapore&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk)).

Whoops. Guess you're mistaken!

Caning is only used by approximately 20% of households in Singapore (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#cite_note-0)). By your logic, then, ADHD/ADD prevalence should be approximately 20% lower in Singapore than in a nation where spanking children is illegal (such as the UK). The ADHD prevalence in the UK is approximately 1.7% of schoolchildren (source (http://www.sign.ac.uk/guidelines/fulltext/52/section2.html)). The appoximate prevelance in Singapore is 5.27% (source (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:53riNIyBqkwJ:www.spark.org.sg/tips/what%2520is%2520ADHD.pdf+adhd+singapore&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk)).

Whoops. Guess you're mistaken!

However as Singapore is a city state local CO2 levels are higher than those of the UK thus supporting my crazy theory.

SOMEONE had to do this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlem4f37xq499gk)

Also: I do not have a short atten

Well, it was only recognised in 1980, so it is far too recent for me to firmly believe that it exists.
AIDS was only recognized in the 1980s. Are you asserting that it doesn't exist either? iPods? DVD players?

Pray tell, where is the inconsistency? This is what I said

"If children figure out that it is associated with physical pain"

I also said

"The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse"

What am I saying? The proper application of spanking causes pain. Pain =/= Child Abuse. Child Abuse is where you get hoses, fan belts, planks of wood, and so on and you beat the child to a pulp. A couple of short, sharp, painful slaps with an open hand or belt isn't child abuse.

That is unless you are one of those lefties that think that all forms of spanking is child abuse.



I am advocating it because pain is a very good teacher. Why don't you put your hands in the fire? Because it hurts.

BTW, spanking was used for thousands of years. This generation is the first where spanking hasn't been used. Your conclusions are not all that stable, and I could argue, based on anecdotal evidence that spanking worked.



Well, they do use it in Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore
Apparently, the spankings you received have taught you that the proper way to deal with medical conditions is to spank it out of someone. Therefore, it would be consistent to flagellate yourself over a cold -- teach yourself not to let those nasty little germs take up residence. Drive them out! The fact that they're there shows you've LET them stay there.

Slavery has a history many thousands of years old. I suppose that makes it correct. So does rape. So does murder. So does genocide. All very effective at getting a desired object: a worker you need not trouble yourself about treating fairly, sex and degradation of someone who is inferior to yourself, and the removal of a person or persons for personal gain.

Yes, such lovely things, traditions of using force to gain a specific behavior or goal with hundreds and thousands of years behind them...

Snip.

Impressive technique...

I am advocating it because pain is a very good teacher. Why don't you put your hands in the fire? Because it hurts.

You're advocating treating children like animals. They're not puppies we spank to teach them to roll over or to pee in a wee wee pad. A child that suffers from ADD or ADHD has no control of his/her actions by the fact that they have a condition that impairs them from it.

BTW, spanking was used for thousands of years. This generation is the first where spanking hasn't been used. Your conclusions are not all that stable, and I could argue, based on anecdotal evidence that spanking worked.

A good spank once in a while is ok. It disciplines the child.

What's not ok is beating a child when his/her actions are due to factors he/she can't control. That's why doctors exist. If a child is exhibiting an unusal conduct, as a responsible parent, you take him/her to see a health professional to find out why he/she acts that way. You just don't beat him/her up.

The proper application of spanking isn't child abuse though; or are you one of those lefties that think that any form of spanking is child abuse?
correct. proper application of spanking isn't abuse but what you are saying isn't the proper application of spanking.

What am I saying? The proper application of spanking causes pain. Pain =/= Child Abuse. Child Abuse is where you get hoses, fan belts, planks of wood, and so on and you beat the child to a pulp. A couple of short, sharp, painful slaps with an open hand or belt isn't child abuse. the purpose of spanking isn't to cause pain.

I am advocating it because pain is a very good teacher. Why don't you put your hands in the fire? Because it hurts. using Pain as a teaching tool is ABUSE.

A child that suffers from ADD or ADHD has no control of his/her actions by the fact that they have a condition that impairs them from it. I dunno. that friend I spoke of earlier. she seems to have a firmer control over her attention span and able to concentrate on one subject longer. so perhaps it can be controlled with the proper techniques.

A good spank once in a while is ok. It disciplines the child.

What's not ok is beating a child when his/her actions are due to factors he/she can't control. That's why doctors exist. If a child is exhibiting an unusal conduct, as a responsible parent, you take him/her to see a health professional to find out why he/she acts that way. You just don't beat him/her up.

^ this ^

I dunno. that friend I spoke of earlier. she seems to have a firmer control over her attention span and able to concentrate on one subject longer. so perhaps it can be controlled with the proper techniques.

Hence why I'm referring mainly to children.;)

Hence why I'm referring mainly to children.;)

Yeah, I have ADD. But, put me in front of either an Xbox or a computer and I can concetrate on that. Not so much in other stuff.

Hence why I'm referring mainly to children.;)

When we met, she was in intermediate school. Her mother was happy she found a something that she was willing to focus on (anime) and she joined our club at an age younger than what we normally allow in with full consent of her mother (we don't let anyone younger than 12 join. she was 9 or 10.) Her mother attended several of our meetings and after seeing how we would keep an eye on her, she let her daughter attend without her. She's in college now. And last I saw her, you wouldn't think she had ADD/ADHD outside her (now) infrequent backsliding.

As far as I know, she's still not taking any meds.

I haven't been diagnosed with adult ADD/ADHD, but you sound a LOT like me, except for the pills. I don't trust medications such as the ones given for ADD/ADHD.

If I really like a subject, I can concentrate on it like few others can. If I don't, I get easily distracted. There were times when I'd do maybe five or 10 minutes of work in a given workweek, spending most of my time on here.

At my last job, that wasn't a problem because I enjoyed the work I did.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful than that, but at least know you're not alone.

TCT, I happened to read that, and noticed that the site is linked with CHADD. Looked at the CHADD site, and couldn't help but notice that the video linked to on the home page depicted a Democratic Congresswoman. Strange? I don't think so.

Before I simply write you off as a troll, let me get this straight: The copious scientific studies and expert opinions I linked are irrelevant because one of the sources that I linked (which linked directly to texts of the studies summarized) is associated with another website and that other website contains -- among tons of other information -- a quote from a Congresswoman who is concerned about the issue of childhood mental illness and that Congresswoman happens to be a Democrat.

:rolleyes:


In my parents generation, you didn't find people being violent. Violence was a rarity, and when it occurred, it made front page news. You didn't find violence because people knew the difference between right and wrong, and were disciplined.

I assume you can prove that violence (particularly as a percentage of population) used to be "a rarity" but is common today. (Actually, I know you can't, but challenge you to try.)

When we met, she was in intermediate school. Her mother was happy she found a something that she was willing to focus on (anime) and she joined our club at an age younger than what we normally allow in with full consent of her mother (we don't let anyone younger than 12 join. she was 9 or 10.) Her mother attended several of our meetings and after seeing how we would keep an eye on her, she let her daughter attend without her. She's in college now. And last I saw her, you wouldn't think she had ADD/ADHD outside her (now) infrequent backsliding.

As far as I know, she's still not taking any meds.

Just as is true with a wide range of illnesses and/or disorders (physical and mental), ADHD responds not only to medication, but to other types of treatment -- therapy, diet, learned coping skills, etc.

I, for example, don't rely on medication alone to help with my ADHD any more than I rely on medication alone to treat high cholesterol.

Just as is true with a wide range of illnesses and/or disorders (physical and mental), ADHD responds not only to medication, but to other types of treatment -- therapy, diet, learned coping skills, etc.

I, for example, don't rely on medication alone to help with my ADHD any more than I rely on medication alone to treat high cholesterol.

*nods* and notice. Pain is not listed. for any of those. ;)

When we met, she was in intermediate school. Her mother was happy she found a something that she was willing to focus on (anime) and she joined our club at an age younger than what we normally allow in with full consent of her mother (we don't let anyone younger than 12 join. she was 9 or 10.) Her mother attended several of our meetings and after seeing how we would keep an eye on her, she let her daughter attend without her. She's in college now. And last I saw her, you wouldn't think she had ADD/ADHD outside her (now) infrequent backsliding.

As far as I know, she's still not taking any meds.

1- Nice story!
2- Nice mother too!
3- As you can see, anime HEALS! :D
4- We should find a way to reunite the forum's otakus.

*nods* and notice. Pain is not listed. for any of those. ;)

Agreed. You can no more beat a mental disorder out of a child than you can beat away cancer or polio.

Agreed. You can no more beat a mental disorder out of a child than you can beat away cancer or polio.

If only that would keep idiots from:

1- Trying.
2- Claiming "Oh, this ADD is just a fancy-schmancy word for kids who are innattentive and need a beating, hur hur hur! I'm smarter than any of these scientists, all they did was spend their lives researching a subject while I learned from the land, here in the trailer park! I may be little Timmy's uncle, but I'm also his father, and I say beating the crap out of him WORKS!" - and then trying.

3- As you can see, anime HEALS! :D
4- We should find a way to reunite the forum's otakus.

*cough*

Unfortunatly, that's one of her 'triggers' for her backslide. if we need her distracted, someone pulls out a Manga and that's it. whatever she's doing is almost quite litterally dropped and forgotten!

there are other triggers we know of... ;)

Well, it was only recognised in 1980, so it is far too recent for me to firmly believe that it exists.

How old are you?

I'm asking so I can decide if you exist or not.

nah...My mom tried to put me on ritalin when i was little...But, my Dad wouldnt let her...I was just overly hyper, lol...

If only that would keep idiots from:

1- Trying.
2- Claiming "Oh, this ADD is just a fancy-schmancy word for kids who are innattentive and need a beating, hur hur hur! I'm smarter than any of these scientists, all they did was spend their lives researching a subject while I learned from the land, here in the trailer park! I may be little Timmy's uncle, but I'm also his father, and I say beating the crap out of him WORKS!" - and then trying.

on the flip side, you have parents that try to get their children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD so they can drug em into a stupor because they don't want to deal with an active child. So it's not just parents not thinking ADD is real, it's just bad parents in total.

on the flip side, you have parents that try to get their children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD so they can drug em into a stupor because they don't want to deal with an active child. So it's not just parents not thinking ADD is real, it's just bad parents in total.

True, although this is based on a myth about ADD medication. The vast majority of ADD medication does not cause a "stupor" but rather is a stimulant. A child without ADD is almost always made more hyperactive by ADD medication.

This is one of the reasons why a medical professional needs to be involved before anyone is given prescription medication.

True, although this is based on a myth about ADD medication. The vast majority of ADD medication does not cause a "stupor" but rather is a stimulant. A child without ADD is almost always made more hyperactive by ADD medication.

This is one of the reasons why a medical professional needs to be involved before anyone is given prescription medication.
bad parents should read up on meds! :p

I said it before, but I think it bears repeating...

Bunny.

I said it before, but I think it bears repeating...

Bunny.

where!? oh, shiney quar... MONEY!

Well, it was only recognised in 1980, so it is far too recent for me to firmly believe that it exists. It's recognition came along with the first generation not to get spanked, and the shift in Western countries toward banning spanking. Where in the past, misbehaviour was dealt to with a paddle to the backside, it was now being called a "disorder."

Even if such a thing existed, I wouldn't consider it a disorder either.

I'm not sure where you're getting your data from, but ADHD was recognized before 1980. My father was diagnosed in the late 60's. A new version of the DSM LISTING it might not have been published until 1980, but it was certainly recognized before that.

When we met, she was in intermediate school. Her mother was happy she found a something that she was willing to focus on (anime) and she joined our club at an age younger than what we normally allow in with full consent of her mother (we don't let anyone younger than 12 join. she was 9 or 10.) Her mother attended several of our meetings and after seeing how we would keep an eye on her, she let her daughter attend without her. She's in college now. And last I saw her, you wouldn't think she had ADD/ADHD outside her (now) infrequent backsliding.

As far as I know, she's still not taking any meds.

Your friend was 10 and she seems to be an exception to the rule. Most children are unable to supress of control ADD/ADHD.

Of course, I am no expert on this subject. The closest person I know with the condition is my mother, and she was diagnosed on her early to mid 40s. I'm not sure if the symptoms reflect the same on an adult as they do on a child.

Agreed. You can no more beat a mental disorder out of a child than you can beat away cancer or polio.

My mom (a psychotherapist) often tries to explain this to the parents of ADHD children (having an ADHD husband and child has given her a lot of first-hand experience!). Telling a child with ADHD to "just try harder to remember/sit still/pay attention" is like telling a blind child to "just try harder to see". Unfortunately, many people see the brain as some mysterious divine creation that is never afflicted with problems the way the body is.

on the flip side, you have parents that try to get their children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD so they can drug em into a stupor because they don't want to deal with an active child. So it's not just parents not thinking ADD is real, it's just bad parents in total.

Have you ever seen a child without ADHD on Adderall? Let me tell you, that doesn't make any parent's life easier.

If only that would keep idiots from:

1- Trying.
2- Claiming "Oh, this ADD is just a fancy-schmancy word for kids who are innattentive and need a beating, hur hur hur! I'm smarter than any of these scientists, all they did was spend their lives researching a subject while I learned from the land, here in the trailer park! I may be little Timmy's uncle, but I'm also his father, and I say beating the crap out of him WORKS!" - and then trying.

The same people who make that argument seem to conveniently ignore all symptoms of ADHD except for the "hyperactive" part, which they then put down to poor discipline. I'm ADHD type II--primarily inattentive--with no hyperactivity. I was a very well-behaved child. My issues were not hyperactivity and impulsivity, but rather inattention, daydreaming, inability to remember things (especially things I was supposed to bring/do), poor attention to detail that resulted in messing up work that was really simple, etc. I would be interested to know how those advocates of spanking think my parents could have hit those symptoms out of me.

You can no more beat a mental disorder out of a child than you can beat away cancer or polio.

Quitters like you shouldn't be parents.

The same people who make that argument seem to conveniently ignore all symptoms of ADHD except for the "hyperactive" part, which they then put down to poor discipline. I'm ADHD type II--primarily inattentive--with no hyperactivity. I was a very well-behaved child. My issues were not hyperactivity and impulsivity, but rather inattention, daydreaming, inability to remember things (especially things I was supposed to bring/do), poor attention to detail that resulted in messing up work that was really simple, etc. I would be interested to know how those advocates of spanking think my parents could have hit those symptoms out of me.

I think H2 is saying that Spanking does NOT work. He's citing the sad opinion of what goes though the minds of those who share similar opinions with Alexandrian Ptolemais

I think H2 is saying that Spanking does NOT work. He's citing the sad opinion of what goes though the minds of those who share similar opinions with Alexandrian Ptolemais

I am. I don't think he thought otherwise though. o_O

I said it before, but I think it bears repeating...

Bunny.

*gets distracted again to go look for the bunny*

Where is that bunny LG?!