NationStates Jolt Archive

What a joke...

Gripe of the day: lazy trombonists who can't do something as easy as reading C clef. ;)

Err, any clef that uses that sign is a C clef, regardless of where it appears on the staff.

That's why it's called the C clef: wherever that bit of cleavage is, is the note that is Middle C on the piano.

This includes the tenor clef, which any competent trombonist can read.

But there's more to being able to read a clef than just knowing which line and space is which note. You have to be able to immediately translate from position on the staff to pitch on the horn.

that's ok, just play them on a baratone horn instead.

i mean sure, those odd clefs inbetween can be figured out easily enough, and then used enough become memorized from doing so, but yah, i do kindof miss the point of the're being there, i mean for instrument musicians. for vocalists maybe they serve some useful purpose, but i really don't see how they do for instrument players.

Gripe of the day: lazy trombonists who can't do something as easy as reading C clef. ;)

This. ^

Suck it up. You're supposed to be a musician.

Sounds like someone's just upset that they weren't invited to Tuba Christmas. :p

This. ^

Suck it up. You're supposed to be a musician.

Wait, steady on, he's a trombonist...

What a joke...

Generally they are for specialist alto trombone parts, so if someone is playing this instrument it makes sense to have a clef that accommodates it best. Then again, I've always found it strange that cellists are expected to read 3 clefs, but I suppose it does have such a huge range.

I would support more use of C-clefs in general; it's good for your score reading and makes much more sense often than just bass or treble (French Horns are most annoying in this regard).

Generally they are for specialist alto trombone parts, so if someone is playing this instrument it makes sense to have a clef that accommodates it best.
I considered that...but it's not. It's not transposed properly.

Then again, I've always found it strange that cellists are expected to read 3 clefs, but I suppose it does have such a huge range.
Err, trombonists are expected to be able to read non-transposing bass, transposing treble, non-transposing treble, and non-transposing tenor clef.

The alto trombone is so rare anymore...and besides, tenor trombone parts are NEVER written in alto clef.

I considered that...but it's not. It's not transposed properly.

Then that is the fault of the edition, not the clef itself.


Err, trombonists are expected to be able to read non-transposing bass, transposing treble, non-transposing treble, and non-transposing tenor clef.

And? I wasn't making a comparison.

The alto trombone is so rare anymore...and besides, tenor trombone parts are NEVER written in alto clef.

Yes, but for pieces written pre-twentieth century, an alto trombone certainly could have been used, and this would have been in alto clef. So, what you're saying is that you resent being expected to play an alto trombone part on a tenor trombone? This is fair, but has little to do with the clef.

Wait, steady on, he's a trombonist...

Ouch! I considered making that joke, but held back. I have no room to make fun, as I'm a vocalist.

I had to write counterpoint in all clefs, though, so like I said, 'boner should get over it. Besides, I'd rather read an oddball clef than excess ledger lines.

Ouch! I considered making that joke, but held back. I have no room to make fun, as I'm a vocalist.

Yeah, me too, but it seemed necessary.

I had to write counterpoint in all clefs, though, so like I said, 'boner should get over it. Besides, I'd rather read an oddball clef than excess ledger lines.

Agreed, and singers can be required to use all types of C clefs depending on the type of music and edition. Plainchant is certainly good for showing that clefs are rather arbitrary and only really are for keeping notes on the stave. I do find Soprano clef (C clef on lowest line) hard to read when score-reading with others clefs below, it just seems odd, though you only seem to get it on old editions of C16 pieces. And its very annoying when the tenor is put on the bass clef with the basses and there's far too many ledger lines to read.

Then that is the fault of the edition, not the clef itself.
Did I say otherwise?




And? I wasn't making a comparison.
Yeah, but I like to brag.



Yes, but for pieces written pre-twentieth century
Not the case here.

It's explicitly written for tenor trombone.

I had to write counterpoint in all clefs, though, so like I said, 'boner should get over it.

Time spent becoming fluent in a clef I've never had to read on this instrument before and likely never will again is time that could instead be spent on actually making the part sound better, and it's quite frustrating when it could all have been avoided had the editor simply done his job--especially since, with modern notation and engraving software, changing parts from one clef to another involves about two seconds.

Besides, I'd rather read an oddball clef than excess ledger lines.
Not the case here. One ledger line would have been required on tenor clef, and it gets low enough that in alto clef it requires additional ledger lines on the low end.

Did I say otherwise?

I got the impression you generally disliked alto clefs.

Not the case here.

It's explicitly written for tenor trombone.

Depending on who it's written by it could be ignorance or non-practical writing, perhaps the composer thinking, 'Well, why can't they read that?' :)

Not that I'd ever write alto clef for a trombone, but I sometimes struggle to find the best place to put the change between alto and treble clefs for violas, especially if it's a scale or arpeggio upwards.

This sounds like the editor has pressed the wrong thing while choosing the clef and not had it corrected. Which is odd.

I got the impression you generally disliked alto clefs.
Nah, just the misuse of them.

Not that I'd ever write alto clef for a trombone, but I sometimes struggle to find the best place to put the change between alto and treble clefs for violas, especially if it's a scale or arpeggio upwards.
Oh, don't get me started on clef changes...I've seen parts that had three clef changes IN THE SAME MEASURE. I understand their necessity, but god they can be a bitch sometimes.

This sounds like the editor has pressed the wrong thing while choosing the clef and not had it corrected. Which is odd.
Or just didn't know any better :D

I generally dislike alto clefs and have never seen any reason to write in them.

Wow. This is the most boring argument ever.

:P

Time spent becoming fluent in a clef I've never had to read on this instrument before and likely never will again is time that could instead be spent on actually making the part sound better, and it's quite frustrating when it could all have been avoided had the editor simply done his job--especially since, with modern notation and engraving software, changing parts from one clef to another involves about two seconds.


Not the case here. One ledger line would have been required on tenor clef, and it gets low enough that in alto clef it requires additional ledger lines on the low end.

If it's an old edition, the owners of the copyright may not want a new one made. If it's a newer piece, the publisher is either stupid or too much a slave to history.

Still, though, you've got lines and spaces, you've got a key signature (I'm assuming), what's the problem? Parts is parts.

Wow. This is the most boring argument ever.

:P

Remember you said that when you go off on one of your pet rants. I know I will. ;)

Err, any clef that uses that sign is a C clef, regardless of where it appears on the staff.

That's why it's called the C clef: wherever that bit of cleavage is, is the note that is Middle C on the piano.

This includes the tenor clef, which any competent trombonist can read.

But there's more to being able to read a clef than just knowing which line and space is which note. You have to be able to immediately translate from position on the staff to pitch on the horn.

Really? I had no idea, what with those years of music theory classes and all. Thanks for that ever-so-helpful refresher in Stuff I Knew When I Was 10.

Talking down to people based on a one-line friendly jab is a bit foolish, for future reference. As is complaining to a vocalist specializing in early music about how haaaaard sight-reading in weird clefs is. :p

Nah, just the misuse of them.

Problem is, where you see misuse, others may see no problem at all.

Oh, don't get me started on clef changes...I've seen parts that had three clef changes IN THE SAME MEASURE. I understand their necessity, but god they can be a bitch sometimes.

That is silly.

As is complaining to a vocalist specializing in early music about how haaaaard sight-reading in weird clefs is. :p

Talking of early notation, how do you find inferring mensuration (say in C14 notation)? It seems odd (to a modern mind I suppose) that a performer could read the music and infer how their own rhythmic grouping corresponded to other's in a motet, and surely performance could not maintain ensemble without this knowledge?

(I suppose this assumes performers used the written notion in learning and performing the music rather than an aural/oral learning, I'm not sure if this issue has been resolved)

(Is currently studying Machaut)

*snip*
Oh, don't get me started on clef changes...I've seen parts that had three clef changes IN THE SAME MEASURE. I understand their necessity, but god they can be a bitch sometimes.

So you don't actually practice, then? Or mark your score?