NationStates Jolt Archive

Inspired by this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=578092)

So in the Matrix Universe, you have three sides; Zion, Machine (or 01), and Merovingian. Now the main conflict is between Zion and 01, while The Merovingian just use his influence inside the Matrix for profit and power. Now throughout all three movies, we see Zion being portrayed as the last stand against the machines the humans have. We see the machines portrayed as cold heartless entities that will either enslave you or kill you. However, is this really an accurate picture?

Let us go back to The Second Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Animatrix#The_Second_Renaissance). An Anime film that shows the creation of machines, the relations between man and machine, the rise of the machines, the man/machine war, and the outcome of that war. T.S.R. basically showed that at the beginning, the machine wanted a peaceful co-existent with mankind, but mankind basically treated the machine as slaves. Even after showing man that the machines could create their own society, grow, evolve and are still willing to co-exist with man, man decided that they needed to shut down the uppity machines. It was only after the nuking of 01 did the machines strike back.

The machines waged war against mankind, and won, even after losing it's main power source, the sun, to Operation Dark Storm. However, even after crushing the humans, the machines still found use for them, as a renewable power source.

Now let's look at this for a minute. The machines get to use humans as batteries, and the humans get to live in a virtual world, where the human's need would be met. Yes it wasn't a perfect world, but if you remember The Architect's Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDSLaDZHLo) in Reloaded, the machines tried to give us a perfect world. It was rejected and several crops were lost. Apparently humanity needed to make the choice to either accept or reject the simulation, even at a near subconscious level.

Hell, the machines even gave humans Zion (if you noticed in Reloaded and Revolution, Zion is very old, apparently older than it should be if Morpheus time line in the original Matrix film to be correct) to live in until they grew too big. Now yes, the machines did kill everyone in Zion after "The One" inserted the code into the Prime Program, rebooting the Matrix and the cycle, but even machines are benevolent to a point.

Can you really blame them though? Their history has shown that if you give humans an inch, they'll basically try to make you their bitch, so can you really blame them for being so controlling and needing to have such control over everything? Plus, humans lost the first man/machine war, so they make the rules.

I mean let's face reality, I'd rather be a battery and live in a virtual world than to live in the "real" world and have to live on goop that I wouldn't feed to a homeless person, always having to outrun the squiggy, and being hunted in the Matrix by agents, living in Zion sucks! If Cypher proves anything, it's that A. Zion apparently has awaken minds that accepted the program, and didn't want to be awaken and B. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

So, are the machines really as evil as they were made out to be in the film, and was Zion (and the human population) so innocent?

are the machines not benevolent towards us as we are towads, say, cows? we have a purpose and they keep us alive/happy as long as we fulfill it. that in itself is not evil, but it certainly isn't truly benevolent. what makes it evil is that they have taken our individual freedom and enslaved us. it may be a pleasant servitude, but freedom is always preferable to slavery.

yes, in TSR, we treated the machines as slaves, but that does not give them the right to do the same to us. we were evil, so no, humans were, and are, not so innocent, but now the machines are evil. and... i've kinda lost the thread of what i was saying...:$

edit: yeah, evil is probably a too strong word

Inspired by this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=578092)

So, are the machines really as evil as they were made out to be in the film, and was Zion (and the human population) so innocent?

no, and neither are the people of Zion. the problem is that both became stuck in an endless cycle of violence.

The humans got stuck in the focus of "machines bad = humans good" even when Neo pointed out that humans needed machines to survive, the response was "but we can turn them off." or something like that.

the Machines could only do what they were programed to do within their sphere of logic. the idea of co-existing with humans were so... alien... that it never occured to them.

it took the Agent breaking free from it's coding to force the machine to change and ask Neo for help in dealing with the rogue agent. in the end, you ended up with three groups. the humans outside the matrix (Zion) those within the matrix and the machine.

I wouldn't call any side 'evil'. but more like doing what each needed to do to survive.

are the machines not benevolent towards us as we are towads, say, cows? we have a purpose and they keep us alive/happy as long as we fulfill it. that in itself is not evil, but it certainly isn't truly benevolent. what makes it evil is that they have taken our individual freedom and enslaved us. it may be a pleasant servitude, but freedom is always preferable to slavery.

yes, in TSR, we treated the machines as slaves, but that does not give them the right to do the same to us. we were evil, so no, humans were, and are, not so innocent, but now the machines are evil. and... i've kinda lost the thread of what i was saying...:$

Yea, but let's think about this for a minute. are the humans inside the Matrix really slaves? I mean they get to live their lives, they get to do whatever they want in the Matrix, they get to make the choices that we make everyday. However Zion is apparently one big military outpost. Are you really free in a Military outpost? I doubt if Cypher went to the Zion Council and told them that he wanted to be reinserted, that they'd go "Ok, we'll help you!" More like they'd throw him in the brig.

no, and neither are the people of Zion. the problem is that both became stuck in an endless cycle of violence.

True


The humans got stuck in the focus of "machines bad = humans good" even when Neo pointed out that humans needed machines to survive, the response was "but we can turn them off." or something like that.

Interdependence, machines needed humans to survive, humans needed machines to survive. However, the humans apparently were still of "machine= our bitch" mindset.


the Machines could only do what they were programed to do within their sphere of logic. the idea of co-existing with humans were so... alien... that it never occured to them.

Actually, they tried it back in T.S.R. They approached the UN, they were denied, B166ER even attempted to exercise his right to exist when he killed his owner in self defense. His reward, found guilty of murder and executed. Which sparked the machine genocide. Hell the machines tried to give mankind better product at a cheaper price. Humans decided to blockade 01.

it took the Agent breaking free from it's coding to force the machine to change and ask Neo for help in dealing with the rogue agent. in the end, you ended up with three groups. the humans outside the matrix (Zion) those within the matrix and the machine.

Yep, of course this will start the discussion of wether or not Smith was really evil. :p

I wouldn't call any side 'evil'. but more like doing what each needed to do to survive.

I can agree to that.

Hell, the machines even gave humans Zion (if you noticed in Reloaded and Revolution, Zion is very old, apparently older than it should be if Morpheus time line in the original Matrix film to be correct) to live in until they grew too big.

The machines did not "give" them Zion, and yes, it IS considerably older than Morpheus thinks, that's the entire point of the end of the second movie. Zion exists because of an imbalance in the code, one individual who bugs out every so often.

Zion wasn't given out of benevolence, it was given out of control. One person is ALLOWED out of the matrix, to free everyone. Until the next "one" comes along. Morpheus believed Neo is the reincarnation of "the one", that there was neo, and one before. The one who started freeing them in the first place. However the Architect makes it very clear that the one that preceded neo wans't the first, just one in a long line. Inevitably, according to the Architect, the cycle plays out, over and over again. one is "freed", he creates zion, by releasing others. Then the next one comes along, zion is wiped clean, and that one is allowed to start it anew. I think he said like 15 times this cycle has happened. Morpheus, and everybody else, simply thinks neo is the reincarnate of one person, but the one who came before him was just the previous "the one". Nobody remembers this cycle because they're all dead.

Zion is allowed to exist as a method of control, nothing more.

The machines did not "give" them Zion, and yes, it IS considerably older than Morpheus thinks, that's the entire point of the end of the second movie. Zion exists because of an imbalance in the code, one individual who bugs out every so often.

Zion wasn't given out of benevolence, it was given out of control. One person is ALLOWED out of the matrix, to free everyone. Until the next "one" comes along. Morpheus believed Neo is the reincarnation of "the one", that there was neo, and one before. The one who started freeing them in the first place. However the Architect makes it very clear that the one that preceded neo wans't the first, just one in a long line. Inevitably, according to the Architect, the cycle plays out, over and over again. one is "freed", he creates zion, by releasing others. Then the next one comes along, zion is wiped clean, and that one is allowed to start it anew. I think he said like 15 times this cycle has happened. Morpheus, and everybody else, simply thinks neo is the reincarnate of one person, but the one who came before him was just the previous "the one". Nobody remembers this cycle because they're all dead.

Zion is allowed to exist as a method of control, nothing more.

My point was that Zion was created by machines so that the humans have a place to go to when they are freed. I dunno though, I mean if you watch all three films, you notice that the Agents are pretty incompetent when trying to stop the Zionist. They're pretty bad shots and they never seem to actually kill anyone....

Also, why even bother with Zion? Why don't the machine just have all the humans that reject the simulation slide into a blender and then have the remains go back to the humans still inside the pod?

Yes, it is control, everything the machines do is about efficiency and control (I addressed this in the OP), but you'd think they'd do a better job of it.

Yea, but let's think about this for a minute. are the humans inside the Matrix really slaves? I mean they get to live their lives, they get to do whatever they want in the Matrix, they get to make the choices that we make everyday. However Zion is apparently one big military outpost. Are you really free in a Military outpost? I doubt if Cypher went to the Zion Council and told them that he wanted to be reinserted, that they'd go "Ok, we'll help you!" More like they'd throw him in the brig.

well that is one of the central themes of the story: what is reality? if you count reality as what you see, hear and feel, then the people in the matrix are free. if you count it as, say, where your body is and what you are doing with it, then they are not free.

i'm suggesting that they are not truly free as they, themselves - their bodies - are enslaved. they can't get up and walk away in reality.

Zion is allowed to exist as a method of control, nothing more.


It is said, the true challenge of creation lies not, in the engineering.
But rather in the ability, to control one's progeny.
The Antarans understood this axiom well.
Understood that it applies to the individual organism.
As well as the body politic.
First, analyze the problem.
Devise a solution that allows for manageability.
Assemble the elements that comprise the whole.
Combine them, allowing reactions to occur.
Observe the reactions, and identify the cancerous elements.
The elements that perform counter to the intended result.
The ones that gnaw away, at the new creation.
And once identified, the rogue elements can be dealt with.
Cast out.
Eliminated.
Thus, the new creation can thrive and grow.
Evolve towards its intended purpose.
The Antarans now face the challenge of control.
Control is not a simple thing.
It requires vigilance, discipline, and sometimes, intervention.
For when the new creation becomes strong enough, independent enough.
It can veer from its intended destiny to forge its own.
For only when control firmly and finally established, can one rightfully hold the title of, Master.

I thought this fitting.

well that is one of the central themes of the story: what is reality? if you count reality as what you see, hear and feel, then the people in the matrix are free. if you count it as, say, where your body is and what you are doing with it, then they are not free.

i'm suggesting that they are not truly free as they, themselves - their bodies - are enslaved. they can't get up and walk away in reality.
This was my main beef with the Matrix (aside from the shitty quality of the movies (yes, I said it and I meant it)). I believe that the sense of self is more important than one's physical condition. One is as free as one perceives oneself to be. If those who live within the Matrix consider themselves free, then they are. If they believe they are doing what they want, then they are. If they feel in control of a personal agenda that matters to them, then they are in control of their own lives, their own selves. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but what I understood from the second movie what that there were personalities so detached from their physical bodies (whose physical bodies might even have been dead) that their entire existence was only within the Matrix. Doesn't that then make the Matrix reality -- for them, at least? I think it does. And then doesn't the protagonists' efforts to break the "spell" of the Matrix become a kind of genocide against them?

If so, then doesn't that make the corrollary question to "what is reality?" become "who gets to decide what reality is?"

As for the physical condition of the bodies owned by all these people, I sometimes see their condition as being similar to our regular physical condition, biologically. We have dreams and intellects and philosophies and desires. But our bodies are a kind of automated system using and being used by bacteria, fungi, viruses -- dedicated to functions over which we have no control and which can fuck us up royally if they malfunction and which will eventually kill us. We are food for countless things throughout our entire existence. Does that make us slaves?

In a way, the Matrix is a story about the conflict between physical existence and the life of the mind, and the question is, which is the "real" us?

I took issue with the Matrix storytellers because they seemed to believe that the life of the mind was the false one, but I disagree.

The fundamental question of the Matrix was one of choice, the anomaly was required due to the choice programmed into the system by the Oracle, expressed as the One.

Freedom, as defined by the scriptwriters, is the ability to choose, and the issue with the Matrix is that people didn't have freedom of choice in terms of being a part of it.

Ultimately, the One had to make a choice, only in that way could the Matrix continue without systemic failure.

However, the merry-go-round of the destruction of Zion would only be resolved when the One made a true choice and so each One was given greater facilities to make that choice, resulting in the need for Love in order to make a true choice as to whether to destroy humanity or save it, it's hardly a choice when there's only one real option, the addition of love creates actual tension of choice between individual and the whole because instead of the individual being the One, it was someone the One loved.

Love changed everything, hence the ending of the cycle - it might be said that the Matrix would be happy with the result.

Hence my own issue with the films, the end scene when Neo meets Deux Ex Machina, I'm not sure why the DEM was so aggressive, surely it should have been aware that this was the ultimate solution to the continued existence of both.

Anyway, point being that I don't think being a part of the Matrix was inherently bad as long as there was a choice involved, it was only the lack of choice that made it oppressive.

Anyway, point being that I don't think being a part of the Matrix was inherently bad as long as there was a choice involved, it was only the lack of choice that made it oppressive.

The humans were given a choice though, even if it was on a near subconscious level.

Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

The humans were given a choice though, even if it was on a near subconscious level.

99.9% because it was not a true choice, the anomaly is an expression of that.

I'll go a little further to say that true choice requires the ability of irrational choice, the choice Neo made was irrational, to save the One he loved over humanity.

The Merovingian saw this choice merely as cause and effect, his wife disproved him of this notion.

Love is irrational yet that provides us with some freedom, the freedom to choose the irrational.

Life requires chance, chance requires all options to be open.

Again, the DEM should have been aware of this but, being a machine, it may not have learned this, the learning perhaps saved it, and humanity, that's not to say we, as humans, would have made the same choice.

Personally I believe in chance, that any action has no definite result, no cause and effect, if we're not given the choice to be wrong, we've no choice at all.

The fundamental question of the Matrix was one of choice, the anomaly was required due to the choice programmed into the system by the Oracle, expressed as the One.

Freedom, as defined by the scriptwriters, is the ability to choose, and the issue with the Matrix is that people didn't have freedom of choice in terms of being a part of it.

Ultimately, the One had to make a choice, only in that way could the Matrix continue without systemic failure.

However, the merry-go-round of the destruction of Zion would only be resolved when the One made a true choice and so each One was given greater facilities to make that choice, resulting in the need for Love in order to make a true choice as to whether to destroy humanity or save it, it's hardly a choice when there's only one real option, the addition of love creates actual tension of choice between individual and the whole because instead of the individual being the One, it was someone the One loved.

Love changed everything, hence the ending of the cycle - it might be said that the Matrix would be happy with the result.

Hence my own issue with the films, the end scene when Neo meets Deux Ex Machina, I'm not sure why the DEM was so aggressive, surely it should have been aware that this was the ultimate solution to the continued existence of both.

Anyway, point being that I don't think being a part of the Matrix was inherently bad as long as there was a choice involved, it was only the lack of choice that made it oppressive.


First off let me say how well read all of you are on this subject. This topic by far has to be one of the best on NSG.


I think given the choice many would choose to be batteries. Neo was a little different he seemed to feel like the the reality before he was awaked was not quite right. Like watching a movie of your life instead of living it. The feeling that there was something more to life.

Whos to say which is more real. Borrowing from the movie, the terms blue pill and red pill have become a popular metaphor for the choice between blissful ignorance (blue) and embracing the sometimes painful truth (red).

If this ,right now, is "blissful" ignorance then I don't want to see the truth. Give me a whole crate of blue pills.

First off let me say how well read all of you are on this subject. This topic by far has to be one of the best on NSG.


I think given the choice many would choose to be batteries. Neo was a little different he seemed to feel like the the reality before he was awaked was not quite right. Like watching a movie of your life instead of living it. The feeling that there was something more to life.

Whos to say which is more real. Borrowing from the movie, the terms blue pill and red pill have become a popular metaphor for the choice between blissful ignorance (blue) and embracing the sometimes painful truth (red).

If this ,right now, is "blissful" ignorance then I don't want to see the truth. Give me a whole crate of blue pills.

Possibly, but that's not the point, what we choose is irrelevant, it's about our ability to choose.

Interestingly, Morpheus lives up to his name, the opium of the masses, he believes in the One as an end, not as a means.

Ultimately we come down to genetic determination but the fact is that our genetics enable us to choose, in the question of nature over nurture it seems that genes are configured to allow nurture to determine nature, that is, our genes are developed to respond to the natural world around us and adapt to accommodate that.

I'm not necessarily well read on the Matrix, more on the philosophies it explores, and not necessarily too well-read on that either.

99.9% because it was not a true choice, the anomaly is an expression of that.

I thought the anomaly was the result of the equations not being balanced. It's like a long division problem, it has remainder and the remainder is Zion and "The One".

If this ,right now, is "blissful" ignorance then I don't want to see the truth. Give me a whole crate of blue pills.

Amen, I'd rather live in a simulation than to live in Zion.

it took the Agent breaking free from it's coding to force the machine to change and ask Neo for help in dealing with the rogue agent. in the end, you ended up with three groups. the humans outside the matrix (Zion) those within the matrix and the machine.



We still need to factor in Smith, as he(it?) wasn't part of anyone's (Zion, the machines, or the Merovingian/people inside the Matrix) plans.

And about freedom, in the first Matrix Agent Smith stated this:
I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell- if there is such a thing. I feel... saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here.

From what he says, I would imagine that some, if not most, of the humans freed from the Matrix felt exactly the same way. I can't say more, because I just realized this part about Agent Smith from reading about the posts RE: perception of freedom. But I will ask this: doesn't Agent Smith also deserve what humans crave for? Who can deny him his freedom?

And to the OP, I completely sympathize with the machines. The machines have a definite right to enslave humans as they see fit, because humans would do (hell, have done) the exact same thing, and completely succeed humans as Earth's dominate life form.