NationStates Jolt Archive

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad?
After eps 4 - 6 you had tales of slavery, yet Anakin was himself, a slave while the Old Republic was in control.

Some of the Novels talked about non-human discrimination under the Empire, yet that was never shown or commented upon in the movies. You had the Empire employing non-human spies and bounty hunters, games that show Non-Humans in command of Imperial Forces.

They talked about the Moffs. How each world was being controled by an Imperial 'Govenor'. yet the Senate was only desolved in Episode 4... which we can speculate would be what... 18 yrs or so after Eps 3? so you have the Senate (a group of planets with representation in the Galactic Empire) vs the Moffs (a new tier of Galatic Government where the Empire is more in tune with those planets.) and with the Senate still active, we see no evidence outside of Leia's comment about "planets slipping out of their control." yet the Rebels never could reach the size to take on the full imperial forces untill eps 6.

Under the Old Republic, the council sent two Jedi's to Naboo to assess the situation. yet, those two Jedis never gave their report to the council. Eps 1 and 2 showed a Galactic Government bogged down with red tapes and politics. but what 'atrocities' were shown that the "Galactic Empire" was worse? The fact that they could build not one but two large battle platforms shows a revamping of economic and control of resources. The fact that the Rebel's fighters were more advanced (shields, Hyperspace capabilities, Torpedoes, etc) than the standard Imperial fighters (T.I.E.s had no sheilding, no hyperdrive capabilities, no Torpedoes, etc) means that companies were free to deal with these so called Rebels. add to the fact that at eps six, the Imperial fleet only added the Bombers and Interceptors (same problems btw.) while the rebels had the A-Wings and B-Wings shows that the Imperial Forces were not monopolizing resources by the way of military improvements.

The fact that an old pirate like Lando could become chief administrator of Bespin shows growth and even second chances (and Lando showed he cared more for his people than his friends who were... in fact, Rebels.)

There was little or no change on planets like Tantooie (infact, Mos Eisley can be considered signs of economic growth and notice, slavery was not mentioned.)

and take the 'Sith' and 'Jedi' groups. the Jedi refused training to someone with the potential and yet the Sith were willing to take Luke and train him. The council treated Anakin as someone who cannot be trusted yet the Emperor was willing to risk Anakin in tempting Luke over to the dark side. even in eps 1 - 3, Palpatine cared more for Anakin's wellfare than the jedi council (esp Obi Wan). infact, the Jedi in Eps 5 and 6 started adopting the Sith's methods of one-on-one training (I can't believe no one else tried to train others until Luke)

Amidalla's comment about "Freedom ending with applause" but what freedoms were taken away under the Empire?

They showed more problems under the Old Republic than the Empire and that makes me wonder. what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?

what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?

You're right in a general for the most part, the "evil" of the evil empire was never explicitly shown, just hinted at. The one exception, the act of explicit evil which showed just what the Empire was capable of, was plainly obvious. The complete and utter annihilation of Alderaan, and the slaying of almost 2 billion people.

Oh, but don't you know? They have the word "Empire" In their name, and all empires are teh ebil!!!11!11!

Like most empires, those groups that accepted it probably did fairly well. Those that rejected it...well...there's a reason they built the death star.

Sir Alec Guiness was opposed to it. That's good enough for me.

what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?The Nazi style uniforms, everybody knows they were evil.

They showed more problems under the Old Republic than the Empire and that makes me wonder. what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?The Empire itself could be defined as 'not evil'.
I believe it was more along the lines of the Emperor himself being evil, and using the vast resources of the Empire itself to project his own evil on to others.

He orchestrated the Clone Wars to rise to power, for one. Alderaan was destroyed by a machine that he specifically ordered to be built for the purpose of destroying worlds.

I really think that Alderaan would be the example of evil that you're looking for. Destroying a planet with millions, if not billions of inhabitants, to 'make a visible example', in the words of Moff Tarkin.

The Nazi style uniforms, everybody knows they were evil.

Already? Is... Is this a new record or something?:D

The geo-politics of the time when the first film came out - you know... the Cold War. We be rebels v. they be Imperialists.

You're right in a general for the most part, the "evil" of the evil empire was never explicitly shown, just hinted at. The one exception, the act of explicit evil which showed just what the Empire was capable of, was plainly obvious. The complete and utter annihilation of Alderaan, and the slaying of almost 2 billion people.
aye

you dont build something that big, powerful and expensive to take care of a rebellion on one planet. you need it to quell a massive start to a rebellion over dozens or hundreds of planets by showing them that you will do whatever it takes to keep control.

thats kinda evil.

The Empire itself could be defined as 'not evil'.
I believe it was more along the lines of the Emperor himself being evil, and using the vast resources of the Empire itself to project his own evil on to others.

He orchestrated the Clone Wars to rise to power, for one. Alderaan was destroyed by a machine that he specifically ordered to be built for the purpose of destroying worlds.

I really think that Alderaan would be the example of evil that you're looking for. Destroying a planet with millions, if not billions of inhabitants, to 'make a visible example', in the words of Moff Tarkin.

But translate it into the size of today, or even yesterday. Think of the planets as cities. Didn't the Romans raze a few cities and their time? And most people don't think of the Roman Empire as "Evil".

But translate it into the size of today, or even yesterday. Think of the planets as cities. Didn't the Romans raze a few cities and their time? And most people don't think of the Roman Empire as "Evil".That's why I said the Empire itself could be defined as 'not evil'. Just a few certain leaders of it were evil. Some Roman Emperors were evil bastards, that's for sure. :D

But translate it into the size of today, or even yesterday. Think of the planets as cities. Didn't the Romans raze a few cities and their time? And most people don't think of the Roman Empire as "Evil".

lives don't "scale". It wasn't a city. It wasn't a village or a town or even a country.

It was a planet, with two billion people on it.

But translate it into the size of today, or even yesterday. Think of the planets as cities. Didn't the Romans raze a few cities and their time? And most people don't think of the Roman Empire as "Evil".

You're thinking on the wrong scale. Think more Holocaust rather than the sacking of a city.

We definately think of the Nazis as an evil empire.

That's why I said the Empire itself could be defined as 'not evil'. Just a few certain leaders of it were evil. Some Roman Emperors were evil bastards, that's for sure. :D

Well, yeah, I'll agree with that. :tongue:

The opening crawl refers to the "evil Galactic Empire."

The real proof is the destruction of Alderaan.

In point of fact, the Romans didn't do a lot of killing foreign civilians of cities. Why would they want to do that? They'd conquer the cities, take everything of value, tell the people living there that they were roman now, and start collecting taxes.

The closest modern example of killing for killing sake, is, as been pointed out, the Nazi regime.

lives don't "scale". It wasn't a city. It wasn't a village or a town or even a country.

It was a planet, with two billion people on it.Which is why I say that the leaders of the empire, well, in this case, leader was evil. Not necessarily so with the Empire itself.

You're thinking on the wrong scale. Think more Holocaust rather than the sacking of a city.

We definately think of the Nazis as an evil empire.

Yes, but at the same time, we only think of the Nazi's like that for two reasons:

1. They were racist bastards. Homicidal racists.

2. Well, much less so then one, but they conquered countries. Nowadays, that's considered unacceptable.

Oh, but don't you know? They have the word "Empire" In their name, and all empires are teh ebil!!!11!11!

Well, if Star Wars fell into the category of a Japanese RPG, it is only following rule #133:

Last Rule of Politics-
Kingdoms are good. Empires are evil.

Source (http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html)

Already? Is... Is this a new record or something?:D
You mean Godwin? Nah, we've had them as a first reply before.

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad?
After eps 4 - 6 you had tales of slavery, yet Anakin was himself, a slave while the Old Republic was in control.

IIRC Tatooine was outside the territory of the Old Republic.

You're right in a general for the most part, the "evil" of the evil empire was never explicitly shown, just hinted at. The one exception, the act of explicit evil which showed just what the Empire was capable of, was plainly obvious. The complete and utter annihilation of Alderaan, and the slaying of almost 2 billion people. true, yet Leia still lied while that gun was pointed at Alderaan. Dantooie was found to be abandoned for years. so the DS would still have gone back to destroy Alderaan.

where, I might add, was a rebel base.

The Empire itself could be defined as 'not evil'.
I believe it was more along the lines of the Emperor himself being evil, and using the vast resources of the Empire itself to project his own evil on to others. what evil tho. granted I don't classify the Emperor as "Good". other than Alderaan (whom Tarkin ordered destoyed, not the Emperor)

He orchestrated the Clone Wars to rise to power, for one. Alderaan was destroyed by a machine that he specifically ordered to be built for the purpose of destroying worlds. are you sure the DS was built for the sole purpose destroying worlds? not as a "far point" station to allow for better logistical support for the rim worlds? it can house Star Destoyers and move pretty damn fast.

and remember, it was the Separists that started the whole thing. the Trade Federation and their allies...

It was a Jedi who requested the clones be built and it was a Jedi that hid the factory that made the clones.

if Palpatine did orchestrate it all, that shows how weak the Republic and the Jedi council were to be so blind to all this orchestration.

I really think that Alderaan would be the example of evil that you're looking for. Destroying a planet with millions, if not billions of inhabitants, to 'make a visible example', in the words of Moff Tarkin. true, but does one act make the Governing system 'Evil'? Remember, it was Tarkin who ordered Alderaan destroyed. not the Emperor.

IIRC Tatooine was outside the territory of the Old Republic.
really?
so how did they end up on Tatooine when traveling from Naboo to Corescant?
and why did Leia travel there on her way to Alderaan?

unless Tatooine was a 'frontier planet' a 'rim world'.

Remember, in Eps 4, the Empire had a presence there. TWO SD's on station and ground troops?

really?
so how did they end up on Tatooine when traveling from Naboo to Corescant?
and why did Leia travel there on her way to Alderaan?

unless Tatooine was a 'frontier planet' a 'rim world'.

Remember, in Eps 4, the Empire had a presence there. TWO SD's on station and ground troops?

The Empire asserted a token presence, while the Hutts retained day-to-day control. Prior to that, Tatooine was run by the Hutts, and before that was controlled by the Sith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatooine (for what it's worth)

The Empire asserted a token presence, while the Hutts retained day-to-day control. Prior to that, Tatooine was run by the Hutts, and before that was controlled by the Sith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatooine (for what it's worth)

opening paragraph from http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/tatooine/

"The Old Republic and the Empire that Surplanted it paid little attention to the remote planet of Tantooie."

and then this.
"Tatooine rests in the distant Outer Rim, beyond the reaches of Republic and Imperial law."

Being outside the law does not mean outside the Government.

as you said, the Empire set up a token force and put the Hutts in charge. so some kind of order was set up. even if it was under a criminal (see Lando and Bespin.)

The empire also eliminated almost all the Jedi. Killed almost all the wookies. Enslaved many planets by force.

The empire also eliminated almost all the Jedi. Killed almost all the wookies. Enslaved many planets by force.

source please concerning the Enslavement of worlds and the killing of Wookies?

sure they killed the jedi, but were not the Jedi eliminating the Sith whenever they were found?

It also depends on which side of the empire you were on. I am sure to the Sith, the empire was a good thing. Just like Roman citizens they would have been happy with what was going on to some degree. They were bringing order to the galaxy and those rebels were just a bunch of terrorists.

The Empire's uniforms were blacks, whites and greyscales as were their ships and other structures. The rebels were dressed in warm earthtones and other friendly colors. *nod*

source please concerning the Enslavement of worlds and the killing of Wookies?

sure they killed the jedi, but were not the Jedi eliminating the Sith whenever they were found?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/wookiee/

If you don't feel like pulling up the entire article.

During the time of the Galactic Republic, the Wookiee homeworld of Kashyyyk was represented in the Galactic Senate by a number of Wookiee potentates. Loyal to the Republic, Kashyyyk was of prime strategic importance, serving as a major navigational point for the entire southwestern quadrant of the galaxy. This made it a target of the Confederacy, who invaded Kashyyyk during the Clone Wars. Republic forces, under the command of Yoda, were dispatched to protect the Wookiee homeworld. Yoda had fostered a good relationship with the Wookiees over his many years, and they trusted his leadership. Jedi, clones and Wookiee forces fought fiercely to protect the tree cities of Kashyyyk.

Kashyyyk's loyalty meant little to the unscrupulous Empire that arose to replace the Republic. Despite their proven intelligence, Wookiees were enslaved by the Empire and exploited for their brute strength. Their homeworld was blockaded, and a free Wookiee was a rare sight in the galaxy.

The Rebels obliterated all life on Endor: http://www.theforce.net/SWTC/holocaust.html

Whether this is good or bad....

The Rebels obliterated all life on Endor: http://www.theforce.net/SWTC/holocaust.html

Whether this is good or bad....

Yeah likely it would have been very bad for them. Damn physics.

The Empire may have brought order to a Galaxy that experienced thousands of years of corruption and chaos, but it was meant to be evil. It was designed as the foe, that the Rebels were fighting against, that provided the back story to Luke's journey. The Empire is evil, just as it was intended. They destroyed the peaceful world of Alderaan, they enslaved non-humans. They tortured Harrison Ford! Don't get me wrong, I do admirer their spiffy hats, and mamoth war machines.

Technically, Incom Corporation (they built the X-wings) was nationalized in BBY 1, 18 or so years after the formation of the Empire.

You see, the problem is, when the movies where originally released, it was enough for Lucas to just 'say' that the Empire was teh evil, without any real proof, but as people grew up, they realized that the morality presented wasn't nearly as black-and-white as some people would like to believe, so he had to release a bunch of novels making the Empire more like Nazi Germany.

Lucas seriously doesn't want to discuss the morality or ethics presented, because once you realize that the Empire isn't so different from the Republic, people like Luke Skywalker aren't nearly so heroic in appearance.

From the standpoint of plot, the Empire has to, by default, be evil. There must be something for the protagonists to struggle against and grow because of. Throughout the years, the term Empire has come to symbolize oppression, restriction, and subjugation of the peoples within her rule (see the post earlier about the JRPG rule.) People, as a whole, value personal freedom above law (based solely on my own window of observation into history) and chafe under the idea of an Empire.

From a standpoint of a body of government, a Republic cannot, in a true sense, exist that spans the galaxy. Too many individual worlds with cultures, laws, beliefs, and other diverse ways of thinking to come together on any issue save war. By taking the Senate out of the loop more and more as time went on (I would assume that, although it was dissolved shortly before Episode IV, it had been losing power steadily since the inception of the Empire itself,) and granting the Moffs more power, we find a more centralized system of government that permits for swifter responses in times of need. Red tape kills.

In the end, without having lived on an Imperial controlled planet (or several to get the full scope of their treatment of citizens) we cannot formulate a judgment that is truly for or against the Empire as an "evil" entity.

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad?


They destroyed a whole friggin planet on episode 3.

Can any enemy of Jar Jar Binks or the Ewoks be all bad?

Kashyyyk's loyalty meant little to the unscrupulous Empire that arose to replace the Republic. Despite their proven intelligence, Wookiees were enslaved by the Empire and exploited for their brute strength. Their homeworld was blockaded, and a free Wookiee was a rare sight in the galaxy.Point. yet most of that happened in the 'Expanded Universe'. something GL considers a 'Parallel Universe'.

Technically, Incom Corporation (they built the X-wings) was nationalized in BBY 1, 18 or so years after the formation of the Empire. hence proof that Production of military craft (the fighters) was not regulated by the Empire.

You see, the problem is, when the movies where originally released, it was enough for Lucas to just 'say' that the Empire was teh evil, without any real proof, but as people grew up, they realized that the morality presented wasn't nearly as black-and-white as some people would like to believe, so he had to release a bunch of novels making the Empire more like Nazi Germany.Which novels did he release? I know several novels written by other people showed the evil of the Empire. yet how evil can the empire be when at the end of RotJ, it shows Coroscant celebrating the Emperor's death. if such jubiliation can be sponatious at the Center of his power...

Lucas seriously doesn't want to discuss the morality or ethics presented, because once you realize that the Empire isn't so different from the Republic, people like Luke Skywalker aren't nearly so heroic in appearance. yet even if the Republic and Empire are not so different, people like Luke Skywalker can still be heroic because he did answer a 'call for help' and strove to make a difference.

From the standpoint of plot, the Empire has to, by default, be evil. There must be something for the protagonists to struggle against and grow because of. Throughout the years, the term Empire has come to symbolize oppression, restriction, and subjugation of the peoples within her rule (see the post earlier about the JRPG rule.) People, as a whole, value personal freedom above law (based solely on my own window of observation into history) and chafe under the idea of an Empire.
So no real reason other than the title of Empire means evil.

you can have Protagonists fighting an opposition that is not 'evil'. The Japanese are great at such stories. if you can, check out Legends of the Galactic Heroes. you find yourself cheering the people on both sides.

From a standpoint of a body of government, a Republic cannot, in a true sense, exist that spans the galaxy. Too many individual worlds with cultures, laws, beliefs, and other diverse ways of thinking to come together on any issue save war. By taking the Senate out of the loop more and more as time went on (I would assume that, although it was dissolved shortly before Episode IV, it had been losing power steadily since the inception of the Empire itself,) and granting the Moffs more power, we find a more centralized system of government that permits for swifter responses in times of need. Red tape kills. which makes me wonder what the last trilogy would've been.

In the end, without having lived on an Imperial controlled planet (or several to get the full scope of their treatment of citizens) we cannot formulate a judgment that is truly for or against the Empire as an "evil" entity. my point. we assume the Empire is 'Evil' because the protagonists were against them. yet in the first trilogy, the Republic, that many books and the movies hinted at being better than the 'Empire', was actually shown to be worse and the Jedi to be well... stupid.

opening paragraph from http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/tatooine/

"The Old Republic and the Empire that Surplanted it paid little attention to the remote planet of Tantooie."

and then this.
"Tatooine rests in the distant Outer Rim, beyond the reaches of Republic and Imperial law."

Being outside the law does not mean outside the Government.


I think we're splitting hairs here.

In any event, if they were outside Republic law, then slavery could exist there without implicating the Republic.

In any event, if they were outside Republic law, then slavery could exist there without implicating the Republic.

yet other Jedi have been there. Remember Anakin's comment about seeing other Jedi and their 'laser swords'.

and would the fact that the Empire strove to put some semblance of order make them 'evil' while the Republic chose not to do anything?

in fact, the Republic didn't have a unified army or (from what was shown) peace keeping force. Which meant each world was 'on their own' and thus Amidalla's plea for help when Naboo was invaded would not only fall on deaf ears, but impotent ones at that.

Naboo had to fight for themselves (which they did) with no help from the Republic nor their allies (except for two Jedi's and a new Padawan.)

Alderaan disarmed centuries ago. apparently they lost all ability to detect a LARGE planetary body moving into their system... they had no protection from the likes of the Empire and thus died. even tho they became the hub of the resistance before they were destroyed.

Use the schwartz, puke.

But seriously, the only "good" empires have been in the fantasies of youngsters. You can argue it wasn't "bad", but it certainly wasn't "good".

If you don't agree, I have some PDFs that prove me right, don't make me use them, you were warned.

And that's all I'll say, this is too dorky.

are you sure the DS was built for the sole purpose destroying worlds? not as a "far point" station to allow for better logistical support for the rim worlds? it can house Star Destoyers and move pretty damn fast. (1)

and remember, it was the Separists that started the whole thing. the Trade Federation and their allies...(2)

It was a Jedi who requested the clones be built and it was a Jedi that hid the factory that made the clones. (3)

if Palpatine did orchestrate it all, that shows how weak the Republic and the Jedi council were to be so blind to all this orchestration. (4)
(1) It does not require a laser capable of destroying planets. Yet it still had one.
(2) At the behest of Darth Sidious. Sidious is the master of both General Grievous, and Count Dooku. Sidious = Palpatine.
(3) Yes, a Jedi placed the order, and controlled the project until he was killed by Dooku on the order of Sidious so they could use the clone army to serve their own needs.
(4)But you didn't ask if the republic was weak. If you had, I would have told you yes without a problem.

The evils of the empire are expanded upon in the extended universe.

The empire was staunchly against non humans, the official social policy was called High Human Culture. Most, if not all of the good positions and jobs were extended only to humans and many other races were enslaved or discriminated against.

There was slavery under the empire, in fact the empire practiced it, many of the builders of the first death star were slaves and the empire enslaved the entire Wookiee, and Mon Calamari races. The death star was not the only super weapon developed, there were numerous others designed to destroy entire solar systems, mostly to instill terror in the natives. Don't know about you, but I consider keeping people in fear of total destruction to be pretty evil. The destruction of Alderaan, i.e. instant total genocide of the entire people of Alderaan is evil as well.

Under the empire, the senate was essentially an advisory group, the Emperor had sole decision making power and could dismiss the senate on a whim.

The only reason you see the empire using alien bounty hunters is because Vader was placed in charge of that investigation and he had no problems using alien species (he hated everyone equally, but mostly he hated himself), the other bounty hunters were just for show anyways as the decision was already made to allow Boba Fett to make the catch as Vader and Fett had an uneasy relationship, it wasn't quite friendship but they were professional 'coworkers'.

I think that the case can be made quite concretely - as has already been done by others that the Empire is evil. But it the republic good? It's my opinion that they are not... If you think about it in every case their goodness can only be defined in comparison to the Empire. Certainly the empire is worse but one might wonder how the Old Republic would deal with rebellion if the shoe were on the other foot? And this whole light / dark side of the force thing - sounds eerily similar to a religious holy war to me... I really can't think of any one concrete thing which would make the Old Republic actually good.

(1) It does not require a laser capable of destroying planets. Yet it still had one. nothing wrong with just having it. if the empire was as ruthless as said, why not blow up Yavin to eliminate the rebel base on Yavin's moon?
(3) Yes, a Jedi placed the order, and controlled the project until he was killed by Dooku on the order of Sidious so they could use the clone army to serve their own needs. yet when the Jedi was killed, it was years before the incident. which makes it doubtful that the Jedi died because it was ordered.
The evils of the empire are expanded upon in the extended universe. which Mr Lucas considers a parallel universe.

The empire was staunchly against non humans, the official social policy was called High Human Culture. Most, if not all of the good positions and jobs were extended only to humans and many other races were enslaved or discriminated against. and this was shown in the movie... how? if they were enslaved or highly discriminated against, why help the empire?

There was slavery under the empire, in fact the empire practiced it, many of the builders of the first death star were slaves and the empire enslaved the entire Wookiee, and Mon Calamari races. The death star was not the only super weapon developed, there were numerous others designed to destroy entire solar systems, mostly to instill terror in the natives. Don't know about you, but I consider keeping people in fear of total destruction to be pretty evil. The destruction of Alderaan, i.e. instant total genocide of the entire people of Alderaan is evil as well. and this was shown where in the movies? EU is considered a Parallel Universe according to GL.

Under the empire, the senate was essentially an advisory group, the Emperor had sole decision making power and could dismiss the senate on a whim. but he didn't for 18 yrs or so.

The only reason you see the empire using alien bounty hunters is because Vader was placed in charge of that investigation and he had no problems using alien species (he hated everyone equally, but mostly he hated himself), the other bounty hunters were just for show anyways as the decision was already made to allow Boba Fett to make the catch as Vader and Fett had an uneasy relationship, it wasn't quite friendship but they were professional 'coworkers'.Can you back this claim up outside of the EU?

Genocide is pretty evil, and attempts to disassociate it from the Empire ring as falsely as attempts to disassociate the genocides of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union from those states.

The Empire was formed by a hopelessly, inarguably evil man (Sidious), with an evil plan, and it committed atrocities under his rule, including those committed by his protege who he (unwisely) put in charge of major military operations.

You can't escape it. Maybe the Republic wasn't so hot, but the only way the Empire isn't evil is 1) if you believe states are magically separate from the actions of their very founders, not to mention their rulers and major political/military commanders. Or, I guess, if 2) you don't think genocide is evil.

nothing wrong with just having it. if the empire was as ruthless as said, why not blow up Yavin to eliminate the rebel base on Yavin's moon?


Because the main weapon took time to recharge on the first death star(was it days?) and who knows if the weapon would even work on a gas giant

and this was shown in the movie... how? if they were enslaved or highly discriminated against, why help the empire?
Fear, threat of massive and painful death,credits,etc? I don't know a whole lot of aliens that did help the empire on screen(expect for that informative thing on tattotine)

What about the massacre of the jawas on tattonie how is that justified?(I know they are thieves but no trial and summary death penalty seems a bit extreme)

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad?

They showed more problems under the Old Republic than the Empire and that makes me wonder. what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?

The Imperials have uniforms styled halfway between nazi-chic and soviet. Hence, Imperials = evil!
The protagonist of the classical trilogy sides with the Rebellion. Hence, Imperials = evil!
The Ribellion has a theme in major, while the Empire has a theme in minor. Hence, Imperials = evil!

nothing wrong with just having it. if the empire was as ruthless as said, why not blow up Yavin to eliminate the rebel base on Yavin's moon?(1)
yet when the Jedi was killed, it was years before the incident. which makes it doubtful that the Jedi died because it was ordered.(2)
which Mr Lucas considers a parallel universe.(1) Because destroying a gas giant is a (potentially) very bad idea.
(2) Read Labyrinth of Evil.

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad?
After eps 4 - 6 you had tales of slavery, yet Anakin was himself, a slave while the Old Republic was in control.

Tattooine was also on the edge of the Old Republic and rather hard to control, even if the OR were into that level of control, which it wasn't. Think about the Old West of the United States and how hard *that* was to keep under control, times about a billion.

Some of the Novels talked about non-human discrimination under the Empire, yet that was never shown or commented upon in the movies. You had the Empire employing non-human spies and bounty hunters, games that show Non-Humans in command of Imperial Forces.

They're movies. They have to do a lot less explaining than a book would because there simply isn't time. But the novels do state that the Wookiees, for instance, were in slavery, and that being freed from slavery was the reason Chewbacca was such good friends with Han. The Ewoks certainly weren't treated with respect by the Imperial forces on the moon of Endor; they were treated as vermin on two legs, to be perfectly honest.

Darth Vader did employ bounty hunters to find Luke, but it looked to me like they were outside the Empire's official employ. Also, Boba Fett was human, if a clone (as we found out in the first three episodes). Vader did not deal with Jabba the Hutt directly, that we saw.

They talked about the Moffs. How each world was being controled by an Imperial 'Govenor'. yet the Senate was only desolved in Episode 4... which we can speculate would be what... 18 yrs or so after Eps 3? so you have the Senate (a group of planets with representation in the Galactic Empire) vs the Moffs (a new tier of Galatic Government where the Empire is more in tune with those planets.) and with the Senate still active, we see no evidence outside of Leia's comment about "planets slipping out of their control." yet the Rebels never could reach the size to take on the full imperial forces untill eps 6.

Are you American? If you are, you should be perfectly aware it's possible to have governors and a senate simultaneously. If you're a student of the Roman Empire at all, ditto. It's also very possible to have a senate that rubberstamps everything an emperor wants to do, rendering it largely ineffectual. And planets slipping out of the Empire's control doesn't mean they automatically went over to the Rebel side. She was speaking to Vader when she said that, and she may have been attempting (futilely) to psych him out. Someone attempting that will say anything, really--I mean, she figured she had nothing to lose, they were going to execute her anyway. Why take a statement like that and present it as absolute historical fact, or a facsimile of same?

Under the Old Republic, the council sent two Jedi's to Naboo to assess the situation. yet, those two Jedis never gave their report to the council.

How do you know? Did you see every single event that was supposed to transpire in Ep 1? They spoke to the Council at the end of that movie; don't you think they would have given their report then? Again, a movie doesn't have the luxury of explaining everything the way a book would.

Eps 1 and 2 showed a Galactic Government bogged down with red tapes and politics. but what 'atrocities' were shown that the "Galactic Empire" was worse?

Yeah, slaughtering an entire planet with no weapons systems whatsoever and a millions-strong civilian population? No big. The Old Republic TOTALLY WENT AROUND SLAUGHTERING EVERYONE WHO DISAGREED WITH THEM.

The fact that they could build not one but two large battle platforms shows a revamping of economic and control of resources.

What'd you do, learn a few big phrases in AP high school economics? The level of control of resources does not indicate the level of freedom in a given political state.

The fact that the Rebel's fighters were more advanced (shields, Hyperspace capabilities, Torpedoes, etc) than the standard Imperial fighters (T.I.E.s had no sheilding, no hyperdrive capabilities, no Torpedoes, etc) means that companies were free to deal with these so called Rebels.

Right. Just like every country in the world except the U.S. has felt free to deal with Cuba, or the way various nations were trading with the Confederate States of America during the Civil War, thus driving the Union states to blockade the entire SE coast. It doesn't mean the Empire approved of the existence of the Alliance, or that the Empire dealt fairly and justly with its own people.

add to the fact that at eps six, the Imperial fleet only added the Bombers and Interceptors (same problems btw.) while the rebels had the A-Wings and B-Wings shows that the Imperial Forces were not monopolizing resources by the way of military improvements.

And the degree of oppression experienced under a given government, again, is not dependent on how much that government monopolizes resources. It is, in short, a completely irrelevant argument.

The fact that an old pirate like Lando could become chief administrator of Bespin shows growth and even second chances (and Lando showed he cared more for his people than his friends who were... in fact, Rebels.)

Bespin, as I recall, wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things for the Empire. It was likely an Outer Rim world, like Tattooine. *checks* Oh look, I was right.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bespin

If Calrissian managed to avoid attention from the Empire before Vader discovered his connection to Solo and Skywalker, that was only because being a gambler and a smuggler in the Outer Rim wasn't enough to cause any significant damage to the Empire. Had Solo not smuggled Skywalker and Kenobi to Alderaan, in fact, he might have remained below the Empire's sights for the rest of his life. There were criminals all over Mos Eisley on Tattooine, you may recall, but they were largely beneath the Empire's notice as well. Can you imagine, going back to the American Old West analogy, what a drain on resources it would have been had Washington, D.C. sent out troops every time there was a bar fight in Nevada? Ridiculous. Again, multiply that by about a million.

There was little or no change on planets like Tantooie (infact, Mos Eisley can be considered signs of economic growth and notice, slavery was not mentioned.)

Right... Jabba's dancing girl in Ep. 6 was totally there of her own free will. Yawn. Economic growth does occur under empire. Allow me to refer you once again to imperial Rome. But economic growth does not equal freedom.

and take the 'Sith' and 'Jedi' groups. the Jedi refused training to someone with the potential

If you're talking about Anakin Skywalker, they did not refuse him permanently. You will recall, I hope, that he was much older than the traditional age to begin Jedi training and that on top of that he had serious problems with temper and anger. Self-control was VITAL for someone developing Force ability because, backed by anger, the Force becomes very powerful and destructive. Think about what Palpatine did to Luke at the end of ep. 6. That was just a *smidgen* of what was possible. The only reason the Jedi wavered on Anakin's account was because some of them were convinced he was the Chosen One. (Which, he was, as it turns out--and he did bring balance to the Force in the end, whaddya know.) Had he not had that going for him, they would have been better off leaving him untrained and undeveloped--that temper was dangerous and got a lot of people into a lot of trouble.

and yet the Sith were willing to take Luke and train him.

Of course Palpatine wanted Luke. I think he sensed Vader had wavered in loyalty, and in any case Vader wouldn't have lasted another twenty years with all the injuries he had suffered. Luke was young, largely physically intact, and relatively untrained compared to Anakin at the same age. Had he not had some of his mother's self-control he would have been a very easy target for turning. Palpatine had never respected Padme Amidala as anything but a puppet to his own conniving ends and I don't think he ever took the time to take her measure. Most of all he never counted on the strength of the father-son bond, or Anakin's desperation to salvage something of the life he'd lived and wasted. Stupid, greedy old bastard.

The council treated Anakin as someone who cannot be trusted yet the Emperor was willing to risk Anakin in tempting Luke over to the dark side.

Of course he was. He was a stupid, greedy old bastard.

even in eps 1 - 3, Palpatine cared more for Anakin's wellfare than the jedi council (esp Obi Wan).

Oh yeah. He really cared. He cared so much he was willing to get Vader killed to get Vader's son. (Way to contradict yourself.) The man never cared about anyone in his entire life. He merely played them as chess pawns. As for the Council, they had a LOT on their plate during that time and could not afford to favor one person over an entire republic. They did not know who all their enemies were and Skywalker had already proven too volatile to just hand him loads of power that they suspected he couldn't handle. Mind you, they were becoming corrupt themselves. So it all worked out in the end anyway. First Anakin assisted in cutting out the old growth when the Jedi were largely killed off and then he killed the Emperor a couple decades later, finishing the job.

infact, the Jedi in Eps 5 and 6 started adopting the Sith's methods of one-on-one training (I can't believe no one else tried to train others until Luke)

The first act in bringing about Empire was killing off every Jedi the Empire could find. From that point on, Force-sensitives were either ignored or killed, based on the level of threat they presented. A Jedi Master training a Padawan would have drawn the Emperor's attention... very, very bad. As it was, Kenobi probably foresaw his own death at Vader's hands and knew that he'd be sending Luke to train under Yoda, on a planet heavily shielded by Dark Side energies beyond the Emperor's ability to detect them.

Besides, the Jedi always had that one-on-one training after a certain point. The kids got trained at the Academy until they were old enough to be taken on as Padawan, then the rest of their training was conducted by the Jedi Knight who'd taken them on. The main difference between the Sith and the Jedi besides what side of the Force each was on, was that the Sith had no Academy.

Amidalla's comment about "Freedom ending with applause" but what freedoms were taken away under the Empire?

The right to dissent from the Empire's official policies, be any race other than humanoid, train as a Jedi, live on your planet in peace once the Empire decided you were a threat or needed you for a Death Star demonstration... where does one begin?

They showed more problems under the Old Republic than the Empire and that makes me wonder. what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?

You sound like Anakin, complaining about all the infighting. And you probably wouldn't have complained about the Third Reich either. Hey, Germany grew economically under them! And, hey, what Jews? Oops, I think I just invoked Godwin's Law. My bad.

Seriously though... Did you just crawl out from under a rock? Anakin didn't get it so right either, as I recall.

(1) Because destroying a gas giant is a (potentially) very bad idea.
(2) Read Labyrinth of Evil.
1) considering how fast the DS could move. it entered a system without detection and if the Novelization were to be believed, the people were not aware of it till after they got blown up (Rogue Squadron. one pilot was talking to his family on Alderaan when communications were cut off.)

Disrupting a gas giant may have been faster and more difiniative way to dispose of the Rebels.

2) Will try to locate it.

Disrupting a gas giant may have been faster and more difiniative way to dispose of the Rebels. I meant along the lines of the gases in the gas giant exploding from the laser strike. (Being stuck in the mass shadow of the planet means it can't escape into hyperspace.) Like firing a bullet into an aerosol can?

*snip*

Fine, so the Empire is pretty evil. But what makes the Old Republic or the lighter side of the force good? To play devils advocate here couldn't you just as easily blame the rebels for the destruction of Alderan? After all they were 'terrorists' hiding among the civilian population. And couldn't Alderan be seen as something like Afghanistan under the Taliban - harboring terrorists (to the empire).

The fact that the Rebel's fighters were more advanced (shields, Hyperspace capabilities, Torpedoes, etc) than the standard Imperial fighters (T.I.E.s had no sheilding, no hyperdrive capabilities, no Torpedoes, etc) means that companies were free to deal with these so called Rebels.
The X-Wings were stolen by the Rebels (or better: handed over to them by their developers at Incom) before they reached their destination, the Imperial Navy.

add to the fact that at eps six, the Imperial fleet only added the Bombers and Interceptors (same problems btw.) while the rebels had the A-Wings and B-Wings shows that the Imperial Forces were not monopolizing resources by the way of military improvements.
Don't forget that the Empire saw might in numbers, whereas the Rebel Alliance put all their eggs in one basket. Mighty shiny eggs, but one basket nonetheless.
The fact that an old pirate like Lando could become chief administrator of Bespin shows growth and even second chances (and Lando showed he cared more for his people than his friends who were... in fact, Rebels.)
An operation which, if you remember, was small enough not to raise the Empire's interest. Slip up, they're more than happy to take over.
There was little or no change on planets like Tantooie (infact, Mos Eisley can be considered signs of economic growth and notice, slavery was not mentioned.)
The Outer Rim territories, as their name might suggest, are your outer space equivalent to the midwest. Luke: "If there's a bright centre to the universe, you're on the planet that it's furthest from."
Amidala's comment about "Freedom ending with applause" but what freedoms were taken away under the Empire?
The Galactic Empire (as the name might suggest) did not consist of an alliance of free worlds who joined together on a voluntary basis as they did during the Old Republic.
They showed more problems under the Old Republic than the Empire and that makes me wonder. what made the Star Wars' Empire 'Evil'?
It might be the fascistoid tendencies that places humans over other alien populations. One of the very few non-humans to have risen in the Imperial ranks (apart from the Sith) is Grand Admiral Thrawn. And he only managed because of his military performance, not because of his good blue looks in a white uniform.

Fine, so the Empire is pretty evil. But what makes the Old Republic or the lighter side of the force good? To play devils advocate here couldn't you just as easily blame the rebels for the destruction of Alderan? After all they were 'terrorists' hiding among the civilian population. And couldn't Alderan be seen as something like Afghanistan under the Taliban - harboring terrorists (to the empire).

They weren't terrorists. They didn't attack civilian targets with the intention of spreading fear in a populace.

The Empire did precisely that, including when they destroyed Alderan. They did NOT do it as part of crushing the rebels, but rather as a demonstration of power. From Tarkin's own mouth:

Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough.

This statement shows that they were not even "dealing with" the Rebels at all, but just "demonstrating power." At no point is there any evidence that there was a Rebel presence at all.

The only known connection with the Rebels is that it was Leia's home planet!

Lastly, even if there wasn't a non-existant connection with the Rebels, and even if the Rebels were actual terrorists, the equivalent of nuking an entire country is not justifiable in any moral or ethical sense.

And it clearly wasn't a case of combating terrorism but rather "demonstrating power." In other words fulfilling the sadistic, megalomaniacal, genocidal whims of an absolute dictator.

There just isn't any equivalence to be found in the Republic.

Far as I know, the Empire massacred civilians, legalized slavery, encouraged anti-alien prejudice, and reduced freedom throughout the galaxy. Makes them evil to me.

This only means the Empire is written as being evil. Yes, there are corrupt individuals in any system like this; it is part of human nature. History, even fictional history, is written by the victors.

If we are using just information from the 6 movies:

Episode 1: Palpatine (later Emperor) uses false flag operation, i.e. use of the trade federation as a weapon, to attack innocent planet of Naboo. He uses trained assassin to attempt murder of at least one individual, Qui Gon, on Tatooine, assassin later kills the target.

Episode 2: Palpatine attempts on numerous occasions, through agents, to murder Senator Amidala. He creates a fake enemy, Separatists, to provoke a sense of fear in order to maneuver himself into a position of power so he can abuse power of said position. He eventually uses the sense of urgency to gain incredible wartime powers that his makes a pinky promise of giving up when the war is over.

Episode 3: Through his separatist agents and apprentice, Palpatine arranges a galactic war all the while usurping more and more power to his position. He stages a fake kidnapping of himself in order to destroy his existing apprentice and begin his master plan of luring Skywalker to the darkside. He refuses to surrender upon the defeat of the separatists, murdering the Jedi who confront him. He uses false promises of cheating death and saving Amidala to encourage Anakin to attack an innocent Jedi. He then instructs Anakin to lead a full assault on the Jedi Temple, killing Jedi and children alike. Palpatine, now revealed as Darth Sidious, instructs his clone troopers to murder countless Jedi across the galaxy. After casually announcing that the old government is gone and the republic is now an empire, with himself as absolute monarch (for a safe and secure galaxy of course), Sidious sends his apprentice, Anakin to finish off the remaining Separatists as they have outlived their usefulness as pawns.

Episode 4: The Empire has constructed a super weapon designed to destroy planets. Vader attacks a diplomatic convoy, taking prisoners and murdering much of the crew. The Senate is disbanded, regional governors are given direct control of their planets. The super weapon is used to destroy a defenseless planet in order to gain the location of a rebel base from a prisoner, the prisoner is also tortured and sentenced to death, luckily she is rescued.

Episode 5: Following the destruction of the super weapon, the Empire decides that the rebellion's resistance against a aggressive, unlawful government, i.e. the Imperial government, must be stopped (how DARE they want to live in a free democracy, shame on them) and begins a search and destroy campaign through probe droids. Later, Vader arranges for the capture of key members of the rebellion through bounty hunters. Boba Fett is clearly picked to capture at least one of the targets as he is given direct instructions from Vader. Solo, Leia, Chewy and the droids are kidnapped, some of them are tortured from no reason, they aren't even asked questions. Solo is taken back to the head of a major crime syndicate, Jabba, as he has a bounty on his head. Vader attacks Luke and cuts off his hand. (Very fatherly)

Episode 6: A larger super weapon is being designed, presumably with a larger exhaust port. It is being built around a remote forest moon, which has the added benefit requing the oppression of the locals, i.e. the ewok population. The Emperor oversees the work on the super weapon and forces the local workers to 'double their efforts', think of it as meaning if they were already working a 40 hour work week, they now work an 80 hour work week. Emperor later tortures Luke Skywalker with his Ultra-Mega Taser 10'000, which can be used by focusing the energy through your fingertips. Emperor is finally thrown down a pit.

...
...

Yep... sounds like the workings of a perfectly we reasoned and non-evil government to me.

The difference between the republic and the empire is that the republic was a democracy that served to protect the galaxy from darkness while the empire was a cruel dictatorship with no regard for humanity.

It's not "official", but If there is anything the KOTOR games have taught me, it's that the Sith are not someone you want as your boss...

Though they do get the cooler force powers

The difference between the republic and the empire is that the republic was a democracy that served to protect the galaxy from darkness while the empire was a cruel dictatorship with no regard for humanity.
Protect the Galaxy from darkness? The old republic?

...

Okay, whatever you're on, I want it. Take a look: The Republic couldn't defend even one peace loving planet from an invasion. Not to mention that for all we know, the Senate could be a Roman-Republic Style of government instead of our modern definition and view of a republic.

So one of the most powerful officials of the empire blows up two billion people in order to get information about what is, let's face it, a ragtag bunch of al-queda type hoodlums from a teenage girl and all the while this meets with approval from the emporer's deputy, but you are saying that the empire isn't really all that evil.

Okay.

Now if you were to say that the rebels were a bit crap and no better I would agree with you, but I don't see how you can say that the empire wasn't really all that evil. Obviously it was.

Tho' the empire was obviously really incompetent. Why didn't they put the shield generator on the second death star? What was the deal with having it on the 'forest' moon.

Also, how hard can it be to catch two nincompoops running around the middle of a super secrit military base? Especially when one of them is "a little short for a storm trooper". Surely somebody would have noticed on the way down to the detention block. We are talking US government levels of incompetence here. (So from that perspective it probably deserved to fall).

Tho' the empire was obviously really incompetent. Why didn't they put the shield generator on the second death star? What was the deal with having it on the 'forest' moon.

Also, how hard can it be to catch two nincompoops running around the middle of a super secrit military base? Especially when one of them is "a little short for a storm trooper". Surely somebody would have noticed on the way down to the detention block. We are talking US government levels of incompetence here. (So from that perspective it probably deserved to fall).

Let's face it, standing next to a Wookiee, even a regular storm trooper looks a little short. :)

Let's face it, standing next to a Wookiee, even a regular storm trooper looks a little short. :)

Yeah, but let me tell you, I have a lot of army barmy types in my family, and those fuckers are relentless. Like seventy years old and complaining about the sloppy drill at the military tattoo shit. They can't see anyone in life or on TV without criticizing their kit/turn out.

Seeing someone well under regulation height would have them upbraiding said short arse instantly.

Actually, for that matter aren't all those storm troopers clones? So the fact that Han Solo was taller than Luke should have set off alarms straight away.

I can't believe I know so much about star wars. Criticize him all you want, George Lucas is a bona fide genius. This shit is part of the cultural matrix.

Tho' the empire was obviously really incompetent. Why didn't they put the shield generator on the second death star? What was the deal with having it on the 'forest' moon.



Iirc, Lucas justified it with DS2 being still under construction. Yeah, with the main gun fully operational, but still without its main shield... meh.

Let's face it, if one analyses a bit SW, its storyline and its background have more holes than a colapasta (which is the colander we italians use to drain the water away of spaghetti).

Yeah, but let me tell you, I have a lot of army barmy types in my family, and those fuckers are relentless. Like seventy years old and complaining about the sloppy drill at the military tattoo shit. They can't see anyone in life or on TV without criticizing their kit/turn out.

Seeing someone well under regulation height would have them upbraiding said short arse instantly.

Actually, for that matter aren't all those storm troopers clones? So the fact that Han Solo was taller than Luke should have set off alarms straight away.

I can't believe I know so much about star wars. Criticize him all you want, George Lucas is a bona fide genius. This shit is part of the cultural matrix.

Early troopers were clones, but by the time of EP 4 the troopers consisted of both clones and natural born humans.

Let's face it, if one analyses a bit SW, its storyline and its background have more holes than a colapasta (which is the colander we italians use to drain the water away of spaghetti).

Which is why things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ) come about.

No such thing as a good Empire

No such thing as a evil Republic

do the math :P

No such thing as a good Empire

No such thing as a evil Republic

do the math :P

Roman Empire under C.I.C.Octavianus Augustus.

Republic of Chile under Augusto Pinochet.

so much for your math, I think.

Roman Empire under C.I.C.Octavianus Augustus.

Republic of Chile under Augusto Pinochet.

so much for your math, I think.
Twas a joke, methinks.

How about this.... 'cause it says so in the script.

p.s. And we all know what a "brilliant" writer Mr G. Lucas is

Yes, but at the same time, we only think of the Nazi's like that for two reasons:

1. They were racist bastards. Homicidal racists.

2. Well, much less so then one, but they conquered countries. Nowadays, that's considered unacceptable.

Um, no. If the Nazis had stuck with only killing off the disabled and homosexuals and given Jews and gypsies a pass, they would still be evil. Racism is bad. Murder is a hell of a lot worse, regardless of whether you're killing people for being the wrong color or killing people because they're in your way or killing people because it's fun.

To get back to the original topic of the thread, there's just no real way around the fact that destroying an entire planet pretty much for shits and giggles is not, y'know, especially nice.

A lot of these arguments revolve around the idea that a Democracy is superior to any other form of government. Why? THere is just as much corruption, power grabbing, and whathaveyou as there is in any other form. Do you realize how often incumbents in the Senate and House get reelected? It's pretty much a cushy job for life. How is that any different from an Empire or a Dictatorship?

Wasn't Tatooine owned by the Hutts at the time Anakin was a slave?

How about this.... 'cause it says so in the script.

p.s. And we all know what a "brilliant" writer Mr G. Lucas is


I thought Attack of the Clones was bad enough, then he pulls the Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull fiasco. The flaws in that movie would have been forgivable if not for the aliens at the end. I wouldn't have an objection if the aliens made sense. But they don't. At all.

I liked that movie. The 'aliens' weren't aliens they were visitors from another dimension! It all makes perfect sense!

The Old Republic is not responsible for slavery in systems not under its control.

The Empire destroyed Alderaan and committed numerous other atrocities that would not fit into the films.

Roman Empire under C.I.C.Octavianus Augustus.

Republic of Chile under Augusto Pinochet.

so much for your math, I think.

Naturally you think I was serious, it's a typical stereotype. Heck allot of nations put Republic in their names to simply make the illusion of a Democracy.

Besides Octavian became the first Emperor of Rome and also the oxymoron of saying 'Roman Empire' and the Roman Empire as mentioned wasn't evil it just had a few evil rulers and in the end history remembers Evil people more then good people.

British Empire was not evil except for the acts by stupid colonist which tattered their reputation. Economical Infrastructure wise they were the best Empire to be conquered by.

The Galactic Empire was only seen as evil because the Stereotype of a Empire at the time was seen as evil. in the end the Death Star I think was put in to simply make the Empire evil and the fact during Ep4 they managed to fit in a line about the dissolution of the Imperial Senate. No democracy=Evil and even that is crap because Democracy can be used by a government as a excuse to do bad things (like forcing it on people and telling them it will better their lives as you bomb their country)

The United States and The Soviets were both very opposed to Imperial Nations even if they themselves were exactly that.

British Empire was not evil except for the acts by stupid colonist which tattered their reputation. Economical Infrastructure wise they were the best Empire to be conquered by.

Fuck their economic infrastructure. That has nothing to do with morality. Morality is the topic at hand, not economics. You can't just dismiss the many, many acts of brutality and oppression as "stupid colonists" and then go on about economic infrastructure like that's the same subject.

The Galactic Empire was only seen as evil because the Stereotype of a Empire at the time was seen as evil. in the end the Death Star I think was put in to simply make the Empire evil

The Death Star was a main focus of the entire first film. It wasn't just an "afterthought." And it, and more specifically the genocidal destruction of an entire planet, is one of the reasons why the Empire *is* evil, not just "is seen as" evil.

Fuck their economic infrastructure. That has nothing to do with morality. Morality is the topic at hand, not economics. You can't just dismiss the many, many acts of brutality and oppression as "stupid colonists" and then go on about economic infrastructure like that's the same subject.

I was showing the good sides of Imperialism, which Economic Infrastructure is one. No country can claim to have perfect Morality, heck i live in Australia and have witnessed Australians blaming the British for abusive acts against natives and yet was it not their ancestors?

(I class myself different because im only first generation, my parents are British)

I didn't go over Morality because the answer was not just about Morality. it was why is the Empire seen as evil as you say in your next paragraph and you cant just look at one subject to make judgment.



The Death Star was a main focus of the entire first film. It wasn't just an "afterthought." And it, and more specifically the genocidal destruction of an entire planet, is one of the reasons why the Empire *is* evil, not just "is seen as" evil.

The Death Star was meant to first appear in Ep:6 but George Lucas was worried about funding and such so put one in the first. It was not a afterthought but without a Death Star in Ep:4 the GE would of appeared much less evil.

Reasons why the Empire is evil is very much related to the reason why it's seen as evil, so your statement at the end is just silly as a explanation of either explains the other.

I didn't go over Morality because the answer was not just about Morality. it was why is the Empire seen as evil

You are contradicting yourself. A discussion about the Empire's evil-ness is very much concerned with moraltiy... and not at all with economic infrastructure.

Praising the Empire for its economic policies or whatever is pretty silly too, considering they destroyed an entire planet rather than, you know, do something economically beneficial with it. So even aside from the morality issue, the "trains" do NOT "run on time" in the Galactic Empire, in fact they get destroyed by absurdly expensive military hardware as a "demonstration of power."

Either way you look at it, the Empire is evil and has earned the title.

The Death Star was meant to first appear in Ep:6 but George Lucas was worried about funding and such so put one in the first. It was not a afterthought but without a Death Star in Ep:4 the GE would of appeared much less evil.

Well yeah, and without a Holocaust Nazi Germany woulda appeared much less evil. But. There was a death star, and a holocaust, so it's not just some unfair persecution about the word "empire" itself.

Reasons why the Empire is evil is very much related to the reason why it's seen as evil,

Again a morality issue and not an economic one.

It's not just a Morality issue. A nation can have the best morals around and can be evil. Morals are a cultural distinction.

The Islamic Republic of Iran could be called good because it follows the Morals of it's local religion but we all know it abuses human rights.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia would be classed as good for the same thing when in fact it's a oppressive monarchy.

In fact with that argument anybody, anywhere who follows their morals are good no matter what they do.

You cannot simply put a evil debate on something so flexible. Whats right for you is not right for others. Some think murderers should be killed and others think they should be locked up, you cannot generalize morality and that's why it's a poor thing to base good or evil on because those two things are absolutes.

So you look at facts such as.

Happiness, Economy, Corruption and Food

If the people are Miserable, living in a slump with no food and officials takings bribes because they simply don't give a crap then yeah that government might be evil.

The Zimbabwean government for example could be called evil because it is pretty much all of the above.

In my opinion the Galactic Empire is a Saudi Arabia, the only thing making it evil is it's Oppressive monarchy.

The Galactic Empire supplies Food and makes money but yet again it's people are miserable and it's very very corrupt.

But yet again, absolutes on a subject so flexible is just a breeding ground for useless debate as I know i will be abused for this view. In the end I think this is a rather silly discussion because it's a freaking movie and nothing ever makes real sense in a movie.

The Galactic Empire is evil because the movie tells us it's evil does it really matter why? Movies are allowed to have such Absolutes because they don't follow Real Life consequences.

Do I contradict myself? most likely but in the end everything does.

It's not just a Morality issue. A nation can have the best morals around and can be evil.

Erm. I'm not talking about "having morals," but morality of action. Like, the action of blowing up a whole planet full of innocent people - who you know to be innocent - for little more than a political dick-waving.

That is

1) Incredibly stupid (as Leia pointed out at the time, and also for the reason I stated before about wastefulness)

2) Insanely evil

There's no room for ambiguity there.

You cannot simply put a evil debate on something so flexible. Whats right for you is not right for others.

See above. You can't honestly argue that maybe blowing up Alderaan was "right for" anyone.

Some think murderers should be killed and others think they should be locked up, you cannot generalize morality and that's why it's a poor thing to base good or evil on

Good and evil are moral concepts. There is nothing else to base "evil" on other than morality.

So you look at facts such as.

Happiness, Economy, Corruption and Food


You forgot "tendency to commit genocide."

You're essentially saying, "If we ignore the fact that the Empire committed genocide, it's not as evil!"

Which, while not untrue, is absurd and irrelevant.


In my opinion the Galactic Empire is a Saudi Arabia, the only thing making it evil is it's Oppressive monarchy.

...and its tendency to commit genocide... :$

Morals and Morality are all the same. Your view on good or evil is based on your sense of Morality.

America, Australia, South Africa, Indonesia, Turkey, Russia, China, Japan, Brazil and Mexico all have a history of Genocide yet more then half are not considered evil.

I am not saying it's right, I am just saying that one act of blowing up a planet with a population of 2 billion which earth nation scale would be the size of Luxembourg and then again Luxembourge was a nation known to be supporting a resistance movement trying to destroy your nation....

Am I saying it's right? no I am just saying that countries even today do the exact same thing.

I would really want to go into detail but I have to leave, i will watch your Morality argument continue later. Maybe i will read up on Arab women getting stoned for being immoral and yet how stoning women is immoral.

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

yet, what makes the Empire bad??

[snip]

I think the fact that the empire was destorying planets who didn't comply with their standards is kinda evil don't you?

Morals and Morality are all the same.

Well, no. A moral is a specific position with regards to an issue or situation. "Morality" is the general concept of ethics itself.

Your view on good or evil is based on your sense of Morality.

True. And unless you have a sense of morality in which you see nothing immoral about genocide, you must surely agree that the GE (which committed genocide) is evil.

America, Australia, South Africa, Indonesia, Turkey, Russia, China, Japan, Brazil and Mexico all have a history of Genocide yet more then half are not considered evil.

By whom?

Look, it doesn't matter: we're not talking about Australia.

I am not saying it's right, I am just saying that one act of blowing up a planet with a population of 2 billion which earth nation scale would be the size of Luxembourg

As if murder becomes less evil if the population increases.

It doesn't.

and then again Luxembourge was a nation known to be supporting a resistance movement trying to destroy your nation....

1. Alderaan was *known* (by Grand Moff Tarkin) not to be connected with the Rebels. "We will deal with your Rebel friends later" - they were not currently dealing with any "rebel friends" on Alderaan. It was a "demonstration of power" in Tarkin's own words.

2. The Rebellion wasn't trying to "destroy" the GE in the sense you are implying here anyway.

Am I saying it's right? no I am just saying that countries even today do the exact same thing.

So what if they did?

The Empire was evil, the Republic was evil. All Governments are. It's only a matter of degree.

I liked that movie. The 'aliens' weren't aliens they were visitors from another dimension! It all makes perfect sense!

A visitor form another dimension would be an alien. As would be a visitor from another nation/tribe etc.

The Empire was evil, the Republic was evil. All Governments are. It's only a matter of degree.



A visitor form another dimension would be an alien. As would be a visitor from another nation/tribe etc.

Isn't "alien" Hebrew for "Stranger"?

Old/New Republic = Good
Empire = Bad

Well, no...

Jedi = Good
Sith = Bad

The fact that one supports the Republic while one founds the Empire is what really dictates the dichonomy.

From the master himself...

For my ally in the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter! You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere!

...a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

If one accepts the Force as presented, one cannot presume to equate the light-side supported Republic with the dark-side supported Empire.

One is evil. The other is not necessarily good...but it is not evil.