NationStates Jolt Archive

I would imagine members of Hamas believe firing rockets into Israel and fighting over Gaza is "protection of the governed".

Unfortunately, I fear you may be correct.

Bollocks. When you get elected to governance, protection of the goverened is part of the package. If you're not willing to do that, you shouldn't accept the position.
Yes. Too bad Hamas got the power on the Gaza Strip through a violent coup, so you can't really place such expectations on them. They're still more of a resistance movement than a government.


Okay. Where were you when Israel wasn't accepting HAMAS' ceasefire?

Right here, saying that the terms Hamas demanded was silly and wouldn't be met by Israel.

Read the thread.


I find it interesting that when I call you on it you're "explaining", but you don't bother to make the distinction any other time.
Because usually I'm not writing as if I'm talking to people who have trouble with their reading comprehension. It should be obvious.

I would imagine members of Hamas believe firing rockets into Israel and fighting over Gaza is "protection of the governed".

I think you're wrong there. I don't think they harbour any illusions about "protection", not in the widest sense. An active form of resistance, maybe, but in no way protection.

Have no empathy and no compassion for Palestinians.

None. I used to. I used to find the whole Israel/Palesitine conflict saddening. I wanted peace and cooperation.

No more.

There can be no peace.

You probably even think that's original.

You say you have no empathy and compassion for 'the Palestinians' - you condemn a nation for the actions of some of it's radicals. I wonder if you have the intestinal fortitude to apply the same policy whenever it occurs?

To Hamas, the ends justify the means and every civilian casualty is a martyr.



No. Every Palestinian is a Martyr. You'll note they're a lot better at protecting their people.

Yes. Too bad Hamas got the power on the Gaza Strip through a violent coup, so you can't really place such expectations on them. They're still more of a resistance movement than a government.

False. They won the election - Fatah tried to annul it by military force and lost.


Right here, saying that the terms Hamas demanded was silly and wouldn't be met by Israel.


I must have missed that. If so then I apologize.

Because usually I'm not writing as if I'm talking to people who have trouble with their reading comprehension. It should be obvious.

It isn't. I minored in english; you're explained position is in no way obvious from your previous posts.

I'm saying that the Israelis and Palestinians seem to have become blood enemies, and that most likely one side will wipe out or drive out the other.

I don't give a damn what happens to the Palestinians. I won't shed a tear.

Most likely, eventually, a more rational government will get into power in Israel, and some degree of peace will be worked out with one of the more rational factions that occur within Hamas.

Probably involving Israel actually pulling out of Gaza and the Westbank and releasing some, most or all of the hardships they're currently imposing.

Not all of Palestine is sympathetic to Hamas' cause. Not all of Hamas even seeks an end to Israel. And that's why your total-war mentality is unhelpful and destructive.

If we want peace in the Middle East, we'd better hope that Palestinians and Israelis have more capacity to find common ground than you, apparently, do.

Correct - Internet pint of stout for you. Thats worth a pack of your internet cookies, but you'd be better off not exchanging it. Puts hairs on yer chest.

I'd take the stout, personally. :)

Not all of Hamas even seeks an end to Israel.

This I find unbelievable, given HAMAS' charter.

I think you're wrong there. I don't think they harbour any illusions about "protection", not in the widest sense. An active form of resistance, maybe, but in no way protection.
I think one can take resistance to mean protetion of some sort.

If you take any year... then add up the number of people whom are killing and call that number X
Then in that same year add up the total population of the planet and call that figure Y

If Y>X
Then most of the time we aren't killing each other

This is commonly known as a straw man. Just because there are more people alive than dead does not in any way detract from the statement that as a species, humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species.

*snip*

Your argument is the sort I would expect from exceedingly self centered people incapable of factoring in a world much larger around them that doesn't care a whit what they think and will continue acting in a manner that they insist doesn't happen.

This is commonly known as a straw man. Just because there are more people alive than dead does not in any way detract from the statement that as a species, humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species.

Actually, if you add up all the people that ever died, there are probably a lot more than are alive.

Actually, they're a militant organization violently opposed to the existence of Israel. I you wish to categorize a group, get their motivations right. They do not give a shit about the Palestinians.


Earlier this decade (on two separate occasions, actually) Hamas backed plans to achieve lasting truce by Israel's complete withdrawal from just Gaza and the West Bank... something that Israel has singularly refused.

Violence, and opposition to the existence of Israel, are variables within Hamas. It's not as black and white as you'd like to pretend, which makes it ironic that you'd say "If you wish to categorize a group, get their motivations right".

No. Every Palestinian is a Martyr. You'll note they're a lot better at protecting their people.

Oh I am sorry. I thought I was responding to someone who were able to read my responses within the context of their own previous comments, and didn't need me to break my posts into pieces suitable for spoon-feeding. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

I was not talking about Israelis, and neither were you - as you said "Gazans". And Hamas is not really trying to protect Palestinian civilians residing within the geographical area known as "the Gaza Strip", but they are trying to resist the occupation. Do I have to explain which occupation I'm talking about too, or can I expect that to be understood within the context of this thread?

Actually, if you add up all the people that ever died, there are probably a lot more than are alive.

That is doubly true, but using that argument would be... fuzzing the argument I believe. It isn't about whether there's more people alive than people who died in a year or rubbish like that. It's about the fact that humanity as a species keeps choosing to dish out death and destruction to itself for petty, pathetic reasons.

This is commonly known as a straw man. Just because there are more people alive than dead does not in any way detract from the statement that as a species, humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species.
Species don't 'choose'.

Moreover, I'd challenge your account that "humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species". Indeed, that's patently false; we don't "constantly" choose to do such, otherwise there wouldn't be 6 billion+ of us.

Moreover, I'd challenge your account that "humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species". Indeed, that's patently false; we don't "constantly" choose to do such, otherwise there wouldn't be 6 billion+ of us.

Unless we breed faster than we kill.

I would imagine members of Hamas believe firing rockets into Israel and fighting over Gaza is "protection of the governed".

Just to draw a parallel, it's like members of the about to be defunct American presidency believed that bombing and invading sovereign nations several years back would be "protecting the governed". Or at least, that's how they tried to sell it.

This I find unbelievable, given HAMAS' charter.

Which is irrelevent. Your ability to believe NOT being a value that reality is contingent upon.

Unless we fuck faster than we kill.
Then my point still stands; we don't "constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species".

And, moreover, many, many, people do not die a violent, agent-caused death.

Then my point still stands; we don't "constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species".

The point only stands if you take "constantly" to mean "do nothing else".
In which case the statement is indeed false; even the most active serial killer sleeps every now and then.

False. They won the election - Fatah tried to annul it by military force and lost.
Wrong. They won an election, that's true, but Fatah didn't exactly try to "annul it" with military force. Fatah and Hamas had a unity government for a while, but a year-and-a-half worth of clashes and conflict led to Fatah being expelled from the Gaza strip. It can be called a violent coup.


I must have missed that. If so then I apologize.
Accepted.


It isn't. I minored in english; you're explained position is in no way obvious from your previous posts.
I guess I should be sorry for making so many excuses for Israel too then... Or you should demand your money back, considering your last post here.

The point only stands if you take "constantly" to mean "do nothing else".
Not at all, unless you wish to assert that every single human, past and present, has taken, or will take, the life of another human.

The argument about whether humans are constitutionally homicidal is becoming a threadjack. Please drop it or start another thread.

The argument about whether humans are constitutionally homicidal is becoming a threadjack. Please drop it or start another thread.
Noted.

Oh I am sorry. I thought I was responding to someone who were able to read my responses within the context of their own previous comments, and didn't need me to break my posts into pieces suitable for spoon-feeding. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

I was not talking about Israelis, and neither were you - as you said "Gazans". And Hamas is not really trying to protect Palestinian civilians residing within the geographical area known as "the Gaza Strip", but they are trying to resist the occupation. Do I have to explain which occupation I'm talking about too, or can I expect that to be understood within the context of this thread?

Now who isn't reading who's posts? I said Palestinians and I MEANT Palestinians. HAMAS would cheerfully allow every Palestinian in the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon and Jordan to die if it meant the end of Israel. The fact they only control Gaza does not change that.

I guess I should be sorry for making so many excuses for Israel too then... Or you should demand your money back, considering your last post here.

Oops. Now I feel dumbass..

Don't tease the Mods SaintB, they'll go ya!

By the way, Hamas and Israeli forces are still scuffling in Gaza. Hamas lobbed five rockets at the Israeli town of Sderot with neglible effect and here has been some returning fire.

Hamas has offered a "one week ceasefire". This is not the same thing as a truce. However, it is something.

So far the scoreis 1300 dead Gazans - a third of these, children.

Just ask Russia to destroy Israel and thus correct the error the UN made in 1947.


So far the score is 1300 dead Gazans - a third of these, children.Well, that's what YHVH's love looks like.

What "self-contradiction"?

Claiming to "object" to the use of the word "genocide", and then using it-- in the same sentence.
Some people in Gaza hold extremist views
Including the official leadership.
Some US Americans believe the world was created 6000 years ago, including certain members of the US elected leadership. But it'd be foolish to make the statement that "US Americans believe the world was created 6000 years ago".

No it wouldn't. It ought to be clear that this means "lots of" Americans, rather than "all" Americans; but pretending that this foolishness is not pervasive in America would be unhelpful.

Claiming to "object" to the use of the word "genocide", and then using it-- in the same sentence.
I've outlined multiple times my stance on the subject, yet you willfully ignore it.

I'll try again: I object to the use of the word 'genocide'. Now, are you accusing me of lying, or are you merely unable to understand the written word?

Including the official leadership.
In what bizarre alternative universe does 'official leadership' equate to 'all Palestinians'?

It ought to be clear that this means "lots of" Americans, rather than "all" Americans
Clear to whom? The phrase does not specify that it is referring to a sub-set of US Americans, and thus its meaning is not clear. Just as the idiotic statement, "Palestians want genocide" does not specify that it is referring to a sub-set of Palestinians; indeed the sentance indicates that all Palestinians want genocide.

And if you want to be technical, the Israelis didn't throw the first punch or kick the Palestinians out. It was the British and Americans who forced them out of their homeland to allow the refugees from Germany and Austria a place to live. If I punched you in the face because someone else could be where you are, would you punch me or the other person?

Mostly the Brits did this, but I do believe there was American ethical support.

This is commonly known as a straw man. Just because there are more people alive than dead does not in any way detract from the statement that as a species, humanity constantly chooses to deliver death and destruction to others of the same species.



Your argument is the sort I would expect from exceedingly self centered people incapable of factoring in a world much larger around them that doesn't care a whit what they think and will continue acting in a manner that they insist doesn't happen.


Does it really. Fine. You live here to. I'm a happy, I suggest you watch your cholesterol intake - high blood pressure could be fatal. - Just being the concerned "people" I am.

Does it really. Fine. You live here to. I'm a happy, I suggest you watch your cholesterol intake - high blood pressure could be fatal. - Just being the concerned "people" I am.

There's not a scrap of on-topic argument here. Avoid such posts.

<snip>Your argument is the sort I would expect from exceedingly self centered people ...

There was argument in this post, but the extra comment was unnecessary.

This thread is on a topic that is hot-button for many posters.

Everyone can help keep the temperature low by avoiding any kind of personal remarks.

Bird chasers and Non Aligned States, cut it out.

I wonder how damaged Hamas' capacity to attack Israel is by the invasion. Hopefully they will be able to resume their terrorist attacks soon.

Israel lost this war when pictures of the first casualties started pouring out of Gaza. Secular Arab states have been marginalised, Fatah and Abbas look entirely importent, states opposed to Hamas have openly declared support for them, Israel looks more like the bogey man than ever and Hamas has got a new generation of radicals who will more than welcome the eternal struggle against and destruction of Israel just as they see Israel destroying Gaza.

Hamas dangled a carrot in front of Israel's face. One day, Israel may learn not to bite, but given the last 50 years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I won't hold my breath.

I am not sure that it was carrots that Hamas was firing into Israel NB. :confused:

However, latest reports are that the IDF is pulling out of Gaza. :)

I am not sure that it was carrots that Hamas was firing into Israel NB. :confused:


I think Hamas should, just for kicks. How could Israel possibly retaliate and retain any sense of credibility then?

"Hamas has attacked us with carrots! We must protect ourselves from their rain of root vegetables!"

In one swoop, Israel would go from international bully to laughing stock.

yes because the palestinian people have enough supplies to launch carrots into Israel

If Hamas can smuggle in cheap rocket components from Egypt, they can smuggle in carrots. And Egypt would have a harder time trying to justify stopping carrot shipments.

Jesus Chri- wait, I'm Jewish, this isn't right to say. This thread REALLY needs to be closed. I'm not even sure that carrots are kosher or halal. I never thought about it before.

I'll try again: I object to the use of the word 'genocide'. Now, are you accusing me of lying, or are you merely unable to understand the written word?
If you had left it at "I object to the use of the word 'genocide'" the first time, rather than going on to accusing the Israelis of advocating genocide within the same sentence, I would not have regarded that as dishonest.

In what bizarre alternative universe does 'official leadership' equate to 'all Palestinians'?
In what bizarre alternative universe did anyone make such an equation?
Just as the idiotic statement, "Palestians want genocide" does not specify that it is referring to a sub-set of Palestinians; indeed the sentance indicates that all Palestinians want genocide.
Whose idiotic statement are you referring to?
The sentence in isolation does not indicate either that it means all, or that it means some. What is the context?

*Throws carrots at Chumbs and Tmut *....and let that be a lesson to you boys! Next time it's gonna be cauliflowers!
Or in your case, Chums, because you're Scottish, turnips!!

If you had left it at "I object to the use of the word 'genocide'" the first time, rather than going on to accusing the Israelis of advocating genocide within the same sentence, I would not have regarded that as dishonest.
I did not accuse "Israelis of advocating genocide", I accused (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14401057#post14401057) certain members of the Israeli administration of using language that indicates some support for ethnic cleansing/genocide; even if the inplications of the language is not fully meant, and merely vitriolic hyperbole.

I thought that was adequately clear, but obviously not.

The sentence in isolation does not indicate either that it means all, or that it means some.
Perhaps, but it leans towards the former.

Statement like, "x are y", or, "x's want z", seem to imply that this relation is a constant. 'Dogs are brown' seems to imply that all dogs are brown; at least, more so than it implies that only some dogs are brown.

But meh, linguistics.

Point being, typing/saying the word 'some', or another qualifier that indicates we're only talking about a sub-set of a set, isn't at all hard, and such clarity is desirable when discussing a topic as inflammatory as this conflict.



Or in your case, Chums, because you're Scottish, turnips!!
Bah!

I likes mah neeps.

Actually Chumbs I really enjoy you mixture of logic and humour.
And I really appreciate your socratic dialogue.

Feel free to teach Philosophy. Somebody has to make the subject popular again.

*Almost throws haggis and Chumbs but stops just in time, remembering that haggises have been outlawed by the Geneva Convention*

Actually Chumbs I really enjoy you mixture of logic and humour.
And I really appreciate your socratic dialogue.

Feel free to teach Philosophy. Somebody has to make the subject popular again.
*doffs cap*

I'd love to.

Indeed, that's what I'm heading for; assuming I get me grades.

Speaking of truces, this is an excerpt from the film "Joyeux Noel" when Scottish troops, French soldiers and German troops fraternised with each other on the Western Front on Xmas Eve, 1914. Maybe Daniel Barenboim could get his combined Palestinian and Israeli orchestra to play it in Gaza:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iDz8Ul_AQ&feature=related

I did not accuse "Israelis of advocating genocide", I accused (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14401057#post14401057) certain members of the Israeli administration of using language that indicates some support for ethnic cleansing/genocide
If you are going to make such an accusation, then you ought to provide a source. I do not demand a source for Israelis (including some highly placed in "mainstream" parties) using language supportive of "ethnic cleansing", because I have already seen such things. The accusation that Israelis also use language supportive of "genocide" is often thrown out here, but never supported. Your own language seemed to indicate that you think "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" are interchangeable, and belied your pretense to "object" to the use of the word "genocide".
Point being, typing/saying the word 'some', or another qualifier that indicates we're only talking about a sub-set of a set, isn't at all hard, and such clarity is desirable when discussing a topic as inflammatory as this conflict.
Again, who are you accusing of failing to make the qualification where necessary for clarity? Example, please?

Jesus Chri- wait, I'm Jewish, this isn't right to say. This thread REALLY needs to be closed. I'm not even sure that carrots are kosher or halal. I never thought about it before.Who cares about kosher?

Israel has a right to defend itself

I think one can take resistance to mean protetion of some sort.
One can; However, I don't think the Hamas version of resistance can be seen as protecting of any sort.

Israel has a right to defend itself
And? That doen't include the right to overreact and react disproportionally.

Hamas have accepted the truce, and so have Islamic Jihad and other Islamist groups in Gaza. In a desperate attempt to save face, Hamas has given Israel a week to pull out. If they do, Hamas will of course proclaim their victory even more loudly than they do today.

That both sides are entering a cease fire (not a surprise that the Israelis are starting to wind down, as Bush will be out of office very soon).

Now the question is: Are there any winners here? Or are there only losers this time around? Can any lasting agreement be reached now? It will be interesting to observe the political ramifications of this, and if anything changes on the ground. Except, of course, more hatred, bitterness and violence.

*Isn't optimistic*

Hamas have accepted the truce, and so have Islamic Jihad and other Islamist groups in Gaza. In a desperate attempt to save face, Hamas has given Israel a week to pull out. If they do, Hamas will of course proclaim their victory even more loudly than they do today.

That both sides are entering a cease fire (not a surprise that the Israelis are starting to wind down, as Bush will be out of office very soon).

Now the question is: Are there any winners here? Or are there only losers this time around? Can any lasting agreement be reached now? It will be interesting to observe the political ramifications of this, and if anything changes on the ground. Except, of course, more hatred, bitterness and violence.

*Isn't optimistic*

1. Saudi Arabia has pledged 1 billion to rebuild Gaza. Ok.

2. The EU would also like to help rebuild Gaza, but they won't if Hamas is in charge. They can't officially help an organization they regard as terrorist.

3. The Israelis have said that if there's any more rocket fire, they'll monkey stomp Gaza again. Since it's likely Hamas will fire some, it's likely that we'll see a cycle of "Hamas does shit, Israel monkey stomps Gaza, Saudis pay to rebuild Gaza while EU members wring hands".

I would say that compared to the Lebanon debacle, Israel came off looking like they kicked Hamas's ass (however temporarily).

1. Saudi Arabia has pledged 1 billion to rebuild Gaza. Ok.

2. The EU would also like to help rebuild Gaza, but they won't if Hamas is in charge. They can't officially help an organization they regard as terrorist.

3. The Israelis have said that if there's any more rocket fire, they'll monkey stomp Gaza again. Since it's likely Hamas will fire some, it's likely that we'll see a cycle of "Hamas does shit, Israel monkey stomps Gaza, Saudis pay to rebuild Gaza while EU members wring hands".

I would say that compared to the Lebanon debacle, Israel came off looking like they kicked Hamas's ass (however temporarily).

The EU can rebuild Gaza, no questions. If anyone has difficult diplomacy over it, they can route the funds through the UK, Australia or Canada (for example) who list the TERROR wing of Hamas as a terrorist agency, but not the POLITICAL wing.

Israel have come out of this looking even worse than they did after their Lebanon brutality.

Thirteen Israeli deaths, both military and civilians. (5 from friendly fire)

More than 1,300 Palestinians killed. Of these, Israel claims that more than 500 were Hamas militants, while UN estimates suggest that more than half of those killed were civilians (with more than 1/3 of the total number of casualties being children.) Thousands are wounded, many for life.

Hamas had an estimated 20,000 fighters under arms before the military campaign started. Hamas has survived the war.

More than 4,000 buildings destroyed in Gaza, more than 20,000 severely damaged. 50,800 Gazans homeless and 400,000 without running water. The cost of rebuilding is an estimated US $2 billion.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, ICRC, other NGO's accuse Israel of war crimes. Some accuse Israel of testing new weapons on the civilian population.

Anti-Semitism in Europe has gotten a boost.

Relations with Turkey has been seriously tarnished. The back-door channel to Syria has been closed, and negotiations have been postponed indefinetely. Jordan wishes to re-evaluate ties with Israel. Saudi Arabia warns that their proposed peace deal won't be on the table forever.

Mahmoud Abbas is weakened. Fatah members on the Gaza strip are being rounded up by Hamas as Israel withdraws.

Egypt appears stronger, and as an honest broker, despite tensions between them and Hamas. New agreements are in place to stop the smuggling of weapons across the Egyptian border into Gaza.

Both Likud and Kadima are now polling lower than before the military actions started.

I'm sure I'm leaving some things out here... But that's some preliminary results.

I'm sure I'm leaving some things out here... But that's some preliminary results.
Mazaltov!

Mazaltov!

Oy vey...

Anti-Semitism in Europe has gotten a boost.

Ah, so we see the politically brilliant plan behind this whole situation that otherwise looks like a complete strategic failure. Israel needs to increase its Jewish population somehow, if they rile up enough anti-Semitism through these seemingly strategically poor decisions, eventually the rest of us will simply have to emigrate to Israel. *nod*

I say it in jest, but Israeli policies sometimes seem so counter-productive that all we're left with is jest.

The jury is still out on whether the decisions were strategically poor. Amnesty has charged Israel with war crimes in the use of depleted uranium and phosphorous bombs but most Israelis support the IDF attack on Hamas. It clearly has weakened Hamas but the action came at a very high price for the Palestinians. Yes, Israel will suffer diplomatically in the short term but the message for Israel's enemies is clear - "Don't fuck with us."

The jury is still out on whether the decisions were strategically poor. Amnesty has charged Israel with war crimes in the use of depleted uranium and phosphorous bombs but most Israelis support the IDF attack on Hamas. It clearly has weakened Hamas but the action came at a very high price for the Palestinians. Yes, Israel will suffer diplomatically in the short term but the message for Israel's enemies is clear - "Don't fuck with us."

I realize the tremendous danger in referencing films in serious discussin, but I remember a line from "Munich" where one of Golda's advisors tell her something to the effect "We've shown the world that there is a price to killing Israelis, but its not cheap killing Palestinians either".

Hamas seems to be willing to eat a bad exchange rate...

Thirteen Israeli deaths, both military and civilians. (5 from friendly fire)

More than 1,300 Palestinians killed. Of these, Israel claims that more than 500 were Hamas militants, while UN estimates suggest that more than half of those killed were civilians (with more than 1/3 of the total number of casualties being children.) Thousands are wounded, many for life.

Hamas had an estimated 20,000 fighters under arms before the military campaign started. Hamas has survived the war.

More than 4,000 buildings destroyed in Gaza, more than 20,000 severely damaged. 50,800 Gazans homeless and 400,000 without running water. The cost of rebuilding is an estimated US $2 billion.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, ICRC, other NGO's accuse Israel of war crimes. Some accuse Israel of testing new weapons on the civilian population.

Anti-Semitism in Europe has gotten a boost.

Relations with Turkey has been seriously tarnished. The back-door channel to Syria has been closed, and negotiations have been postponed indefinetely. Jordan wishes to re-evaluate ties with Israel. Saudi Arabia warns that their proposed peace deal won't be on the table forever.

Mahmoud Abbas is weakened. Fatah members on the Gaza strip are being rounded up by Hamas as Israel withdraws.

Egypt appears stronger, and as an honest broker, despite tensions between them and Hamas. New agreements are in place to stop the smuggling of weapons across the Egyptian border into Gaza.

Both Likud and Kadima are now polling lower than before the military actions started.

I'm sure I'm leaving some things out here... But that's some preliminary results.

Fuck.

That's not an uplifting post.

Both sides should be destroyed.

Both sides should be destroyed.

That's a pretty comprehensive solution. I wonder why no one ever thought of it before...

That's a pretty comprehensive solution. I wonder why no one ever thought of it before...

Because that would involve wiping out Israel, which of course triggers the Anti Semitism Defense System that's been implated in the Western world. Now if someone had said to just wipe out the Palestinians, most people would be peachy keen with it.

That's a pretty comprehensive solution. I wonder why no one ever thought of it before...

Yeah I don't think it's been posted too many dozens of times in this thread alone to qualify as unoriginal or anything. And certainly there is nothing unethical or unfunny about advocating a policy of genocide and mass destruction! We need more of that!

It's pretty obvious.

I don't care about the Palestinians. I never said I wanted genocide.

I'd prefer, and expect, Israel to win.

Huh.

I'm saying that the Israelis and Palestinians seem to have become blood enemies, and that most likely one side will wipe out or drive out the other.

I don't give a damn what happens to the Palestinians. I won't shed a tear.

So,

1. You believe that winning involves "wiping out or driving out the other."
2. You prefer Israel wins.

Sounds to me like you prefer that Israel wipes out or drives out the Palestinians. And in either case you 'won't shed a tear.' How is this any different from asking for a genocide? You expect one, want one, and are defiantly expressing how much you dislike the Palestinians.

My opinion on this kind of nonsense - shit or get off the pot. Don't claim you're not advocating genocide in the same post(s) you're basically giggling at the prospect.

The jury is still out on whether the decisions were strategically poor. Amnesty has charged Israel with war crimes in the use of depleted uranium and phosphorous bombs but most Israelis support the IDF attack on Hamas. It clearly has weakened Hamas but the action came at a very high price for the Palestinians. Yes, Israel will suffer diplomatically in the short term but the message for Israel's enemies is clear - "Don't fuck with us."

Huh. Typical Amnesty bullshit - ignore the possibility that Israel comitted REAL war crimes through deliberate targetting of civilians, but "charge" them with using weapons that aren't banned by any international convention.

Huh. Typical Amnesty bullshit - ignore the possibility that Israel comitted REAL war crimes through deliberate targetting of civilians, but "charge" them with using weapons that aren't banned by any international convention.Is building up Jewish settlements in the West Bank not a continuous war crime?

Is building up Jewish settlements in the West Bank not a continuous war crime?

Could be argued. But Amnesty isn't citing that, either.

Could be argued. But Amnesty isn't citing that, either.

I suspect Amnesty is probably tired of citing the same crimes again and again with Israel outright ignoring it for years and so is trying something new this time.

I suspect Amnesty is probably tired of citing the same crimes again and again with Israel outright ignoring it for years and so is trying something new this time.

I can understand that. But why cite something that no country on earth considers a crime?

Amnesty seems to feel they get to decide what is or isn't right or wrong. It's why I stopped supporting them.

I can understand that. But why cite something that no country on earth considers a crime?

If LG were involved somehow, I'd say it's probably to get them off balance.


Amnesty seems to feel they get to decide what is or isn't right or wrong. It's why I stopped supporting them.

Well, it's not like every other country gets to decide what is right and wrong, with right usually "something that profits me" and wrong being "something that costs my profits". I'd rather there be a universal standards system agreed upon by all, but obviously we're never going to get that.

Well once we had the Geneva Convention that was more honoured in the breach than the observance. After 9/11 Bush effectively tore up this convention when he invaded Afghanistan and did not treat captured Taliban (and those accused of being Taliban) as soldiers who had the rights of POWs.
Amnesty doesn't defend people charged with crimes of violence. There bag is non-violent dissidents. They monitor "prisoners of conscience."
By criticising Israel's use of depleted uranium and white phosphorous bombs, they were being mor epolitical than generally they are.
I was once a member a very very long time ago.
Dodo, I think that you are a big quick to be judgemental. Their strength lies in being a moderate and respectable group. They do get prisoners freed sometimes.

It is really the nations of the world to enforce human rights values like not deliberately targetting civillians, not indulging in that nice little euphemism "ethnic cleansing" and objecting when settlers take land that doesn't belong to them (as opposed to buying it.)

The problem is that many of the powers get into nasty tricks themselves. E.G. Using land mines, depleted uranium shells, torture of prisoners etc.

As for settlers occupying Palestinian land, it's not a war crime. It's possibly a crime and it's certainly a violation of the Palestinians' civil and legal rights if the settlers trespassed and expropriated it. It would be primarily an issue for the domestic courts - and of course, the court of world opinion.

Could be argued. But Amnesty isn't citing that, either.It amounts to ethnic cleansing.

It's an interesting argument HappyL. Pressuring people off their land can be seen as one end of the continuum. However, I associate "ethnic cleansing" more on the other side of the continuum - deliberate and systematic genocide ("final solution" stuff). Recent instances of this occurred in Rwanda and Bosnia.

Certainly what the settlers got up to a month before the truce ended when they reacted to the IDF evicting them from their illegal settlement by attacking the neighbouring Palestinians was a pogrom - and it may have contributed to Hamas ending the badly-kept "truce" although the Israeli blockade of Gaza had more to do with it.

By the way, I'm not saying that succeeding Israeli governmnets were not complicit (to varying degrees) in treating Palestinians and Bedouins in Israel like second class citizens and pushing them off their land.

If Israel really cares about how the world sees it, this process needs to be reversed.

Thirteen Israeli deaths, both military and civilians. (5 from friendly fire)

More than 1,300 Palestinians killed. Of these, Israel claims that more than 500 were Hamas militants, while UN estimates suggest that more than half of those killed were civilians (with more than 1/3 of the total number of casualties being children.) Thousands are wounded, many for life.


Wait. Israel claims that "just" more than 500 (I guess this means less than 600: let's assume 599) on a total of 1300 casualties were militants? Are they actually claiming that? It means that Israel says that at least 46% of the victims were non-fighting civilians!

So much for non-disproportionated use of force and legitimate targets, I guess.

Huh. Typical Amnesty bullshit - ignore the possibility that Israel comitted REAL war crimes through deliberate targetting of civilians, but "charge" them with using weapons that aren't banned by any international convention.

The problem isn't the use of the weapons, but how the weapons are used:

"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of the four-person Amnesty International team.

"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield," said Cobb-Smith. "It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas.”

Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories said that such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. "Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," she said.

When each 155mm artillery shell bursts, it deploys 116 wedges impregnated with white phosphorus which ignite on contact with oxygen and can scatter, depending on the height at which it is burst (and wind conditions), over an area at least the size of a football pitch. In addition to the indiscriminate effect of air-bursting such a weapon, firing such shells as artillery exacerbates the likelihood that civilians will be affected.

"Artillery is an area weapon; not good for pinpoint targeting. The fact that these munitions, which are usually used as ground burst, were fired as air bursts increases the likely size of the danger area,” said Chris Cobb-Smith.

Among the places worst affected by the use of white phosphorus was the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, at which Israeli forces fired three white phosphorus shells on 15 January. The white phosphorus landed next to some fuel trucks and caused a large fire which destroyed tons of humanitarian aid.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

If LG were involved somehow, I'd say it's probably to get them off balance.

Clearly they have to refine the strategy as I have. :)

Fuck.

That's not an uplifting post.
Well, I don't see much to be optimistic about. Thoug I still believe that a peace deal is possible. I hope something good will come of this horrible situation...

Both sides should be destroyed.
Nah.

Could be argued. But Amnesty isn't citing that, either.
Thay can only have one thought in their minds at a time? They have to keep mentioning everything every time, or else their complaints will be invalidated?

I can understand that. But why cite something that no country on earth considers a crime?
You're wrong there.

Amnesty seems to feel they get to decide what is or isn't right or wrong. It's why I stopped supporting them.
A NGO dedicated to the preservation of human rights having a strong opinion on when human rights are breached? Get outta town! :eek2:

Wait. Israel claims that "just" more than 500 (I guess this means less than 600: let's assume 599) on a total of 1300 casualties were militants? Are they actually claiming that? It means that Israel says that at least 46% of the victims were non-fighting civilians!

So much for non-disproportionated use of force and legitimate targets, I guess.

Yes...
During the fighting, the military said that more than 500 militiamen were killed and the vast majority of Hamas weapons' stores and rocket manufacturing workshops were destroyed -- including dozens of medium-range Grad rockets supplied by Iran.

Israeli military intelligence says the IDF's performance in the war, its firepower, relatively low human losses, accurate intelligence, and pinpoint coordination between air, ground and naval forces has gone a long way toward restoring Israeli deterrence -- not only with regard to Hamas, but in the Middle East as a whole.
Linky (http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/19/1002363/did-israel-win-the-war-against-hamas)

...though Israel undoubtably denies the civilian casualty number the UN is reporting, and will also try to justify it as Hamas hiding behind civilians/human shields.

Could be argued. But Amnesty isn't citing that, either.

Worth considering, though. If it weren't for those continuing settlements, truces would have been reached in 2000 and/or 2002, when Hamas offered (real) withdrawal as an acceptable compromise.

Dodo, I think that you are a big quick to be judgemental. Their strength lies in being a moderate and respectable group. They do get prisoners freed sometimes.


I bolded this section because I think it cuts right to the heart of the matter. I no longer see Amnesty as either moderate or respectable. They've taken what I see as extremist positions on certain issues, and failed to bring their weight to bear in other, fairly obvious cases.

The problem isn't the use of the weapons, but how the weapons are used:

I can accept that, within limits, Gravlen, but when they make mistakes like:

The fact that these munitions, which are usually used as ground burst, were fired as air bursts increases the likely size of the danger area,” said Chris Cobb-Smith.


it makes me think they don't know what they're talking about, and are just jumping on bandwagons. For the record, WP Smoke is ALWAYS airburst, to spread the maximum possible cover.

You're wrong there.

Ah? Who's banned them?

A NGO dedicated to the preservation of human rights having a strong opinion on when human rights are breached? Get outta town!

Human rights according to Amnesty, NOT any set of international agreements, treaties or even national definitions. And which seem to change according to whoever Amnesty is angry with this month.

Clearly they have to refine the strategy as I have. :)

Your strategy wouldn't have anything to do with those 50,000 inflatable beach balls and 5,000 psi HPA tanks you bought would it?

its ironic tht i just had to do a presentation on this

Worth considering, though. If it weren't for those continuing settlements, truces would have been reached in 2000 and/or 2002, when Hamas offered (real) withdrawal as an acceptable compromise.
Only as a temporary measure until Hamas could arm itself sufficiently to wipe out Israel once and for all (yes, I know it was delusional on Hamas' part, but that's what they said).

Only as a temporary measure until Hamas could arm itself sufficiently to wipe out Israel once and for all (yes, I know it was delusional on Hamas' part, but that's what they said).

No, what they actually said was that they realised their goals of reclaiming the whole area were unrealistic, in such a short time frame. They were basically willing to settle for a status quo. A step in the right direction.

I can accept that, within limits, Gravlen, but when they make mistakes like:


it makes me think they don't know what they're talking about, and are just jumping on bandwagons. For the record, WP Smoke is ALWAYS airburst, to spread the maximum possible cover.
Mistake? You think "weapons expert" Christopher Cobb-Smith (http://www.chiron-resources.com/chris_cobb-smith_chiron.html) - not Amnesty International - made a mistake? And that it's always air burst?

How is WP used?

WP can be air-burst or ground-burst. It emits a distinct “garlic” smell. When air-burst, it covers a larger area than ground-burst and is useful to mask large troop movements. However, this spreads the incendiary effect over a wider area and in densely populated areas, as in much of Gaza, increases the exposure of civilians. When the weapon is ground-burst, the endangered area is more concentrated and the smokescreen remains for longer. The cloud from WP is dependent on atmospheric conditions, so it is impossible to generalize how long it will remain in the air.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/01/mil-090110-hrw02.htm

White phosphorus can be air-burst or ground-burst. It emits a distinct garlic smell. When air-burst, it covers a larger area than ground-burst and is useful to mask large troop movements. However, this spreads the incendiary effect over a wider area.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497338.ece

The US also may have used the ground burst effect as an offensive weapon directly against enemy troops:

"White phosphorus is a conventional munition. It is not a chemical weapon. They are not outlawed or illegal," he said on the BBC Radio 4 PM programme.

"We use them primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases. However it is an incendiary weapon and may be used against enemy combatants."

Asked directly if it was used as an offensive weapon during the siege of Fallujah, he replied: "Yes, it was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants".

He added: "When you have enemy forces that are in covered positions that your high explosive artillery rounds are not having an impact on and you wish to get them out of those positions, one technique is to fire a white phosphorus round into the position because the combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-forces-used-chemical-weapon-in-iraq-515551.html

"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

Could warrant an investigation to see if Israel did the same.

Ah? Who's banned them?
As an incendiary weapon, it would be covered by the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons - Protocol III - Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons. (http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B8954/(httpAssets)/B409BC0DCFA0171CC12571DE005BC1DD/$file/PROTOCOL+III.pdf) See article 2 paragraph 3. The state parties to the treaty can be found here (http://www.unog.ch/__80256ee600585943.nsf/(httpPages)/3ce7cfc0aa4a7548c12571c00039cb0c?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=1#_Section1). It's quite a few nations. Israel and the US is not among them though.

Mind you, when it comes to the US, the US Army Battle Book - Field Manual 100-3 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/st100-3/c5/5Chp.htm), chapter 5, section 5-11, litra b (projectiles) states:
(4) Burster Type White phosphorus (WP M110A2) rounds burn with intense heat and emit dense white smoke. They may be used as the initial rounds in the smokescreen to rapidly create smoke or against material targets, such as Class V sites or logistic sites. It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets.

Take that for what it's worth.

Human rights according to Amnesty, NOT any set of international agreements, treaties or even national definitions. And which seem to change according to whoever Amnesty is angry with this month.
I disagree. Human rights, according to Amnesty, based upon international law, including treaties and national definitions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843633.stm

From the Beeb, looks like, for once, the Israeli's didn't actually stir the Gaza folk up into a pro-Hamas fury--not by any innate mercy of their campaign, but because Hamas' claims of victory come across as blatant falsehoods.

At the very end, a farmer expresses what is probably the broader Gazan sentiment:
"I blame Israel and Hamas both, I just want to live."

What a revolutionary concept.

"I just want to live."

What a revolutionary concept.
Vive la revolution!

Vive la revolution!

Finally--a modern revolution I can get behind.

You know, Israel and Gaza have been at each others throats since Samson and Delilah days.

I grew up Jewish and I realised at university that I was programmed to defend Israel - because that's what a good Jew does.
However, I met Palestinians and thoughtful left-wing radicals who made me rethink many things. I did a lot of reacting against my programming and I didn't ever fully resolve it until I taught in a Jewish school for a couple of years.
I'm still an agnostic and a non-Zionist but part of me realises that I will always have part of me that is Jewish.
It is also okay to criticise Israel for a whole lot of things it is doing wrong and yet acknowledge the things it does right.
I'd like to thank the posters who have contributed to this discussion - especially as things got very heated at times and to repeat my view that you are a force for peace and justice.
Salaam/Shalom

Just ask Russia to destroy Israel and thus correct the error the UN made in 1947.


Well, that's what YHVH's love looks like.

Okay. Oooh, shall we ask them to remove Pakistan as well while they're out there?

Also, I'm quite happy for the Australians to be repatriated to the UK as the land isn't there's. Then there's America.

Hmm maybe Russia might need some help, anyway .. what next?

Your strategy wouldn't have anything to do with those 50,000 inflatable beach balls and 5,000 psi HPA tanks you bought would it?

No, those are for Venezuela. *nod*

No, those are for Venezuela. *nod*

You're right. This sneaky little lawsuit you have going in the back room of Israel is more likely it. Clever little clown. Suing them for Crimes Against Comedy and Breach of Pantaloons. And what's this? Clown rights abuse? Sneaky. And all the while, you have been threatening the judges with piemail.

But all this legalese seems a little unlike you, and those Intercontinental Ballistic Mud launchers you have been building. Where do they fit... aha! I have it. You have inducted Neo Art into your clever little charade, hoping to bog down the Israeli government with clownery as you move your launchers into position, intending to drown the entire Middle East in a mudbath the likes never seen before, committing an act of mass mudicide.

I'm onto you LG.

You're right. This sneaky little lawsuit you have going in the back room of Israel is more likely it. Clever little clown. Suing them for Crimes Against Comedy and Breach of Pantaloons. And what's this? Clown rights abuse? Sneaky. And all the while, you have been threatening the judges with piemail.

But all this legalese seems a little unlike you, and those Intercontinental Ballistic Mud launchers you have been building. Where do they fit... aha! I have it. You have inducted Neo Art into your clever little charade, hoping to bog down the Israeli government with clownery as you move your launchers into position, intending to drown the entire Middle East in a mudbath the likes never seen before, committing an act of mass mudicide.

I'm onto you LG.

<.<

>.>

I'll tell you what: Keep it to yourself and I'll give you the local mudsurfing franchise rights.

The UN wants Martti Ahtisaari, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, to investigate the war.

And Fatah claims Hamas shot 19 Fatah supporters/members during the invasion, while torturing about 60 more. Apparently, several more has been killed after Israeli troops withdrew.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843633.stm

From the Beeb, looks like, for once, the Israeli's didn't actually stir the Gaza folk up into a pro-Hamas fury--not by any innate mercy of their campaign, but because Hamas' claims of victory come across as blatant falsehoods.

At the very end, a farmer expresses what is probably the broader Gazan sentiment:
"I blame Israel and Hamas both, I just want to live."

What a revolutionary concept.

I wonder how many children will grow up hating Israel and blaming them for the deaths of their friends and family members. They don't need to suppoert Hamas to be "troublesome" in the future.

I wonder how many children will grow up hating Israel and blaming them for the deaths of their friends and family members. They don't need to suppoert Hamas to be "troublesome" in the future.

They would probably have been troublesome anyway. There is a HUGE number of youngsters - but they have nothing constructive to do. International aid provides the people with food, there are barely jobs, having a career is an unrealistic notion and so on. There is nothing to strive for, nothing to be proud of - except how well you hurt Israelis. That is where you get your "streetcred".

Interesting note about the use of (what some people consider) chemical weapons by Israel in Gaza.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

I'm sure that if the countries around Israel would stop their attacks on Israelis then Israel would do the same.

The UN's humanitarian chief has told the BBC the situation in Gaza after a three-week Israeli offensive against Hamas was worse than he anticipated.

Sir John Holmes, who visited Gaza on Thursday, said he was shocked by "the systematic nature of the destruction".

He said that the territory's economic activity had been set back by years.

UN workers have been given access to Gaza. On Friday, Israel lifted a ban on international aid agencies entering the Palestinian territory.

The ban had been in place since early November when tensions mounted between Israel and Hamas.

He also urged Israel to end its policy of restricting the amount of cash Gazans can have access to, saying people in Gaza had run up "phenomenal debt" over the last few weeks, trying to buy goods that are in increasingly short supply.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7846625.stm

Also, Hamas has apologized to the family of one of the people they recently executed in Gaza, saying they got the wrong guy. I doubt that'll make the family feel any better.

They would probably have been troublesome anyway. There is a HUGE number of youngsters - but they have nothing constructive to do. International aid provides the people with food, there are barely jobs, having a career is an unrealistic notion and so on. There is nothing to strive for, nothing to be proud of - except how well you hurt Israelis. That is where you get your "streetcred".
And now the situation is worse - there are even fewer jobs, less production, etc. - so while you in theory could have done something about that before, that isn't really realistic now. And now you'll also have the countless cases of young people growing up needing (and in most cases not getting) mental health aid on top of that.

Fun times.

I'm sure that if the countries around Israel would stop their attacks on Israelis then Israel would do the same.
Why don't the Israelis stop occupying territory and see if the situation improves, eh?

More on the aftermath:

On 13 January Brig-Gen Avi Benayahu, chief spokesman for the Israel Defense Force (IDF), said that in its assault on Gaza Israel was using weapons in accordance with international treaties and conventions. He denied Israel was using white phosphorus. ''I repeat Commander in Chief Ashkenazi’s words: The allegations of the IDF using WP [white phosphorus] are false.''
That was then... (http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=82402)

Now, the news of today:
After weeks of denying that it used white phosphorus in the heavily populated Gaza Strip, Israel finally admitted yesterday that the weapon was deployed in its offensive.

The army’s use of white phosphorus – which makes a distinctive shellburst of dozens of smoke trails – was reported first by The Times on January 5, when it was strenuously denied by the army. Now, in the face of mounting evidence and international outcry, Israel has been forced to backtrack on that initial denial. “Yes, phosphorus was used but not in any illegal manner,” Yigal Palmor, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, told The Times. “Some practices could be illegal but we are going into that. The IDF (Israel Defence Forces) is holding an investigation concerning one specific incident.”

The incident in question is thought to be the firing of phosphorus shells at a UN school in Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip on January 17. The weapon is legal if used as a smokescreen in battle but it is banned from deployment in civilian areas. Pictures of the attack show Palestinian medics fleeing as blobs of burning phosphorus rain down on the compound.

A senior army official also admitted that shells containing phosphorus had been used in Gaza but said that they were used to provide a smokescreen.

CHANGING TUNE

January 5 The Times reports that telltale smoke has appeared from areas of shelling. Israel denies using phosphorus

January 8 The Times reports photographic evidence showing stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells. Israel Defence Forces spokesman says: “This is what we call a quiet shell – it has no explosives and no white phosphorus”

January 12 The Times reports that more than 50 phosphorus burns victims are taken into Nasser Hospital. An Israeli military spokesman “categorically” denies the use of white phosphorus

January 15 Remnants of white phosphorus shells are found in western Gaza. The IDF refuses to comment on specific weaponry but insists ammunition is “within the scope of international law”

January 16 The United Nations Relief and Works Agency headquarters are hit with phosphorus munitions. The Israeli military continues to deny its use

January 21 Avital Leibovich, Israel’s military spokeswoman, admits white phosphorus munitions were employed in a manner “according to international law”

January 23 Israel says it is launching an investigation into white phosphorus munitions, which hit a UN school on January 17. “Some practices could be illegal but we are going into that. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece

Their stories haven't changed all that much, but it's somewhat signficant that they investigate some practices that could be illegal... If anything comes of the investigations, time will tell.

one thousand eight hundred and fifty posts later:

Has any progress been made on this thread, in that has anyone here had there opinion changed?

one thousand eight hundred and fifty posts later:

Has any progress been made on this thread, in that has anyone here had there opinion changed?

Was the point of this thread to change anybody's mind?

Mind you, for my own part, I've grown more sceptical of Israel than I used to be, and a little less hopeful.

Things like this leave me a little ambivalent though:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm
In Israel, Prime Minister Olmert told a weekly cabinet meeting that soldiers who had put their lives on the line for their country need not fear prosecution for war crimes overseas.

"The commanders and soldiers that were sent on the task in Gaza should know that they are safe from any tribunal and that the State of Israel will assist them in this issue and protect them as they protected us with their bodies during the military operation in Gaza," he said.

Israel's military tactics have come under intense scrutiny as evidence has emerged of the high numbers of Palestinian civilians killed in Gaza.

Among complaints made by human rights groups are accusations of indiscriminate firing and the use of white phosphorus shells in civilian areas.

I think it's a dick move; If the soldiers have comitted war crimes it would be in the interest of Israel to deal with it and don't let the soldiers do that with impunity.

On the other hand, it shows that the international pressure on Israel is seen as a cause for concern. Hopefully it'll have a preventive effect.

I think it's a dick move; If the soldiers have comitted war crimes it would be in the interest of Israel to deal with it and don't let the soldiers do that with impunity.

On the other hand, it shows that the international pressure on Israel is seen as a cause for concern. Hopefully it'll have a preventive effect.


Considering far far worse has been done by them, it would be ironic if they were done over the phosph.

I think it's a dick move; If the soldiers have comitted war crimes it would be in the interest of Israel to deal with it and don't let the soldiers do that with impunity.

On the other hand, it shows that the international pressure on Israel is seen as a cause for concern. Hopefully it'll have a preventive effect.

I think it's a telling move. If the soldiers did nothing wrong, then they'd have nothing to fear in a court of law. If the soldiers did commit war crimes, then they would have something to fear about prosecution and their government would want to protect them.

Huh, guess we just saw what path the Israeli government has taken.

Looks like the EU has no more patience for Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232643751651&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hamas bears full responsibility for the war in Gaza, a top EU official said Monday in the Strip, calling the group "a terrorist movement."

"At this time we have to also recall the overwhelming responsibility of Hamas," Louis Michel, European Commissioner for Development and Humanitarian Aid, told reporters.

"I intentionally say this here - Hamas is a terrorist movement and it has to be denounced as such," Michel said as he visited the town of Jabalya in northern Gaza.

"Public opinion is fed up to see that we are paying over and over again - be it the [European] commission, the member states or the major donors - for infrastructure that will be systematically destroyed," he said.

Reuters quoted the EU official as saying that the Islamic group had used civilians as "human shields" by placing operatives in residential areas, and said that the years of terrorist rocket-fire on southern Israel served as a "provocation."

The report also quoted Michel as saying that, "When you kill innocents, it is not resistance. It is terrorism."

A Hamas official, Mushir al-Masri, was quoted by Reuters as saying his group was "shocked" at Michel's comments. He lambasted the official for "giving cover to massacres and terrorism committed by the Zionist enemy against the Palestinian people… Palestinian resistance is as legitimate as the resistance of European countries that fought against foreign occupiers."

Oh, and for the "unbiased" source

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7851545.stm

Humanitarian aid chief Louis Michel called the destruction left by Israel's offensive "abominable", but said Hamas bore "overwhelming responsibility".

He said there would be no dialogue with with the "terrorist" movement until it gave up violence and recognised Israel.

He also announced emergency aid for Gaza worth more than US $70m (£50m).

"It is abominable, indescribable," Mr Michel told reporters after touring some of the worst-hit places of Israel's 22-day assault which killed about 1,300 Palestinians, including 400 children. Thirteen Israelis were also killed in the conflict.

"At this time we have to also recall the overwhelming responsibility of Hamas," he said.

"I intentionally say this here - Hamas is a terrorist movement and it has to be denounced as such."

Sick of paying

Mr Michel later visited the Israel town of Sderot, which has been target of Palestinian militant rocket fire, where he called on Israel to lift its blockade of Gaza and he accused both sides of failing to respect international humanitarian law.

"Please open the crossings, you have to broaden the range of products that you let in," he said. "We, the EU, condemn Qassam attacks and military options which target the civilian population.

The former Belgian foreign minister insisted there would be no dialogue with Hamas, and its use of terrorism against Israeli civilians meant it was not a legitimate resistance movement.

The BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Gaza says some aid agencies have expressed doubts about how effective a reconstruction drive in Gaza can be, without the involvement of Hamas, the people in charge there.

Announcing the extra aid package, Mr Michel said people in the EU were sick of paying for the same infrastructure being destroyed over and over again in Israeli military action.

The body is the main donor to the Palestinians, having given three billion euros since 2000, Mr Michel said.

Relief agencies urged an opening of crossings so more aid can reach Gaza
"Every year, we spend 600 to 700 million euros. Today we decided on a supplementary payment of 60 million euros."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7846625.stm

Also, Hamas has apologized to the family of one of the people they recently executed in Gaza, saying they got the wrong guy. I doubt that'll make the family feel any better.


And now the situation is worse - there are even fewer jobs, less production, etc. - so while you in theory could have done something about that before, that isn't really realistic now. And now you'll also have the countless cases of young people growing up needing (and in most cases not getting) mental health aid on top of that.

Fun times.


Why don't the Israelis stop occupying territory and see if the situation improves, eh?




Why is all the nations around Israel always trying to steal there land and kill their citizens?

Why is all the nations around Israel always trying to steal there land and kill their citizens?

What, like Jordan, Egypt (both counted as "allies") and Lebanon? Are they trying to steal Israeli lands? Really? And are these countries, especially the ones with long-standing peace treaties, really trying to kill Israeli citizens too?

Don't look now, but your ignorance is showing.

Looks like the EU has no more patience for Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232643751651&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I find myself agreeing with mr. Michel.

On several matters.

Louis Michel, the EU's commissioner for aid to developing countries, says: "It is evident that Israel does not respect international humanitarian law."
Snippet from an interesting article from Der Spiegel. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603508,00.html)

Der Spiegel also has an article on how many Gazans blame Hamas, but daren't speak too loudly about it.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html

Looks like the EU has no more patience for Hamas.

But what are they gonna do? Whine? That won't get us anywhere.

I find myself agreeing with mr. Michel.

On several matters.


Snippet from an interesting article from Der Spiegel. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603508,00.html)

Der Spiegel also has an article on how many Gazans blame Hamas, but daren't speak too loudly about it.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html


I don't have alot of trust concerning peace agreements made by some of the folks in that area of the world. USUALLY they only agree to peace agreements when then feel a need to rest and rearm.

I don't have alot of trust concerning peace agreements made by some of the folks in that area of the world. USUALLY they only agree to peace agreements when then feel a need to rest and rearm.

Frankly, your "trust" is an irrelevant factor. Show me where the Egyptian and Jordanian governments have expressed a desire to "steal there [sic] land and kill their citizens".

The yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians) endorses "natural growth" of settlements (at least he doesn't endorse new settlements-- but as long as the ultra-religious have eight or ten kids per couple they should keep building houses, presumably on land confiscated from their neighbors). This is horribly counterproductive.

I agree Tmut. I can't understand how cold-blooded some of this settlers can be. They want to have ten kids in order to populate or perish but they want everyone else pick up the tab - especially the Palestinians.

Knit'n'Yahoo will also turn the blind eye to 'illegal' expansion and outposts, as sure as I'm sitting here. He and his cronies are bound to make a bad area worse.

Once in a while, Nodinia and I agree.

i just wish it was left as palestine.......jews, muslims and christians lived side by side in those days.....it was only due to the war and having nowhere to call a homeland that all this mess started. i belive we made the same mess after the first world war with the ottoman empire!!! and its 'break up'.......i can see a pattern, can you?

i just wish it was left as palestine.......jews, muslims and christians lived side by side in those days.....it was only due to the war and having nowhere to call a homeland that all this mess started. i belive we made the same mess after the first world war with the ottoman empire!!! and its 'break up'.......i can see a pattern, can you?

You mean the Sykes-picotte thing. Yes, Imperialism is at the root of much of it.

Likud seems to have "won more" from the Gaza war than Kadima and the Labour party. We seem to be heading towards a Likud-dominated government. Kadima is talking about how a Nethanyahu government won't work with an Obama White House. The fear of losing the backing of the US might persuade some voters, but I doubt that it will have a serious impact.

Also, Israel is back in Gaza after a bomb blast on the border:
There is now heavy fighting going on in Khan Younis, south of the Kissufim crossing.

Palestinian sources say 20 Israeli tanks and seven army bulldozers have made an incursion.

Two people were also wounded in an Israeli air strike in Khan Younis.

Hospital sources say one was a member of Hamas' Popular Resistance Committee who was on a motorbike at the time, and the other was a passer-by.

It was Israel's first air strike since the end of its offensive against Hamas. There has been Israeli artillery and naval fire against Gaza targets since the ceasefires were announced.

Israel has closed border crossings into Gaza because of the attack on the patrol, Israeli officials said, stopping the flow of aid supplies to Gaza's 1.5 million residents.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7853803.stm

A week is a long time in politics. There could still be a swing away from the right.

The "left" needs to regroup in Israel, so that even if the Right take governmental power, the Left has a strong grassroots organisation.

Peace Now: Israel settlement building accelerated in 2008

By The Associated Press

Tags: settlers, Israel News

Settlements and outposts in the West Bank expanded more quickly in 2008 than the previous year, a Peace Now report said Wednesday.

According to the group, 1,257 new structures were built in settlements during 2008, compared to 800 in 2007, an increase of 57 percent.

The group said in the report that building more than doubled in outposts, which unlike settlements are not recognized by the Israeli government. It says 261 structures were built in outposts, compared to 98 the year before.

O happy day. This the kind of thing that makes 'hands across the green line' so much easier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059483.html

O happy day. This the kind of thing that makes 'hands across the green line' so much easier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059483.html

And this during a government who doesn't claim to endorse "natural growth".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009128233938120244.html

Israel bombs southern Gaza

The Fatah-linked al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed to have fired Wednesday's rocket at Israel [Reuters file]

Israeli jets have bombed the southern Gaza Strip after a rocket was fired from the Palestinian territory into Israel.


Look! A perpetual motion machine!

O happy day. This the kind of thing that makes 'hands across the green line' so much easier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059483.html

And this during a government who doesn't claim to endorse "natural growth".

Ethnic Cleansing FTW.

Not.

Look! A perpetual motion machine!

"LISA! In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"


/oblig

But what are they gonna do? Whine? That won't get us anywhere.

Or maybe they'll stop sending all those shiny Euros that the Palestinians like so much, what with it being their primary way of buying food and such.

Or maybe they'll stop sending all those shiny Euros that the Palestinians like so much, what with it being their primary way of buying food and such.

How much are they sending to Hamas today?

The Israeli defence ministry has concealed information about the extent of illegal settlement-building in the West Bank, a leading newspaper reports.

A classified database of construction compiled by the ministry was leaked to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

It suggests most construction took place without the right permits, and more than 30 settlements were built in part on land owned by Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7861076.stm

The American tax dollar at work......

$%#*&&%@)*&^% Bush!

*&^$#*#@* settlers!

^%#$@*^&%# Israeli government that turns a blind eye to this expansionism.

Israel can't have it both ways - it can't make land grabs and accuse the other side of terrorism too. One can only be an innocent victim if one is truly innocent.

Israel can't have it both ways - it can't make land grabs and accuse the other side of terrorism too. One can only be an innocent victim if one is truly innocent.

And people still decry my idea of equally arming the Palestinians with enough firepower to make the Israeli Samson option viable. If they can't have it, nobody can.

I certainly would not give a cent to arm the Palestinians or Israelis (I always avoid JNF money boxes in shops I enter). The UN is launching a point for the world to give generously to rebuild Gaza but what's the point of that if Al Aqsa and Hamas encourage the IDF to make it a war zone.

Meanwhile, the fanaticism of some people knows no bounds. Those who who call in the the media to rub salt into the wound of the gnaecologist who had just lost his 3 daughters in an Israeli bombing raid. Oy Vey!:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/doctors-public-grief-puts-a-new-focus-on-grisly-conflict-20090130-7u0j.html?page=-1

I certainly would not give a cent to arm the Palestinians or Israelis (I always avoid JNF money boxes in shops I enter). The UN is launching a point for the world to give generously to rebuild Gaza but what's the point of that if Al Aqsa and Hamas encourage the IDF to make it a war zone.

You see, the problem is that the idiots on both sides, the Deep Kimchi esque genocide lovers, the mass bombing supporters, they'll never settle for anything but the total destruction of the other side. If you could isolate all of them and bury them at the bottom of the ocean, that'd be perfect. The problem is that the mentality is like a disease with vectors that can't be quarantined conventionally.

So the next best option is to evacuate those who want peace and arm the loonies left to the point where they wipe each other off the face of the planet. Let the cancers destroy each other.

Problem solved.

Yes, I don't see any solution working without a lot of people dying on both sides.

Israel is looking really good these days...

The Israeli military says it has "severely reprimanded" an officer who distributed a booklet to troops that advised they show no mercy to enemies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7856384.stm

Palestinians seized during Israel's operation in Gaza faced "appalling" conditions and "inhuman" treatment, Israeli human rights groups have said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7856372.stm

In house after house taken over by Israeli troops taking position in the urban conflict with Hamas gathers, it seems that furniture, televisions, computers, clothes, refrigerators and windows were all broken up for no apparent reason.

Offensive graffiti, written mostly in Hebrew, but also in Arabic, Russian and English, was scrawled across the walls of most homes I visited, as well as on personal items such as family photos.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/doctors-public-grief-puts-a-new-focus-on-grisly-conflict-20090130-7u0j.html?page=-1

Israel must investigate allegations that its army violated international law during its three-week war against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, the new U.S. envoy to the United Nations said on Thursday.

"We expect Israel will meet its international obligations to investigate and we also call upon all members of the international community to refrain from politicizing these important issues," Ambassador Susan Rice said in her debut speech before the U.N. Security Council.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE50S71K20090129

I urge anyone who have followed the situation to read the article in Der Spiegel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,604065,00.html

It's a "Chronicle of the war", but I think it's a good, and somewhat disturbing, article.

I urge anyone who have followed the situation to read the article in Der Spiegel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,604065,00.html

It's a "Chronicle of the war", but I think it's a good, and somewhat disturbing, article.


Aye. Meanwhile the war for votes continues....

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has vowed a "disproportionate" response to rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7863500.stm

I think that one can safely say that Israel moved to the Right rather significantly over the last few years, for a variety of factors. Hopefully, the lemming-like move to the right will cease - because if it doesn't Israel will be in deep shit...... if the Right do as well in the Knesset elections as many people are predicting, Israel will isolate itself diplomatically and its economy will implode.
The Israeli Labor Party needs new leadership....it has collaborated with the right wing for far too long and it has lost the plot.

I think that one can safely say that Israel moved to the Right rather significantly over the last few years, for a variety of factors. Hopefully, the lemming-like move to the right will cease - because if it doesn't Israel will be in deep shit...... if the Right do as well in the Knesset elections as many people are predicting, Israel will isolate itself diplomatically and its economy will implode.
The Israeli Labor Party needs new leadership....it has collaborated with the right wing for far too long and it has lost the plot.

Its often hard to tell the difference.

Note how they reward Abbas for sticking his ass in the air for them....
Israel has invested close to NIS 200 million during the past two years in preparing infrastructure for construction of housing units to create a contiguous block between Ma'aleh Adumim and East Jerusalem.

The neighborhood of Mevaseret Adumim, slated to be built on Area A1, has so far not been built because of strong American opposition. However the construction of a police base in May 2008 opened a window for massive construction in the area.

It is doubtful all this construction was meant to serve several hundred policemen and civilians traveling to the headquarters daily. The building of the police station, which was done with all required permits, appears to have been a necessary stage in the "claiming" of A1 ahead of constructing residential neighborhoods there.

"Ma'aleh Adumim is an inalienable part of Jerusalem and the State of Israel in any permanent settlement," read a statement from the office of Defense Minister Ehud Barak. "A1 is a corridor that connects Ma'aleh Adumim to Mount Scopus and therefore it is important for it to remain part of the country. This is the position of Labor since Yitzhak Rabin and also of the government of Barak in 1999, and the Americans know this position."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060392.html

Its often hard to tell the difference.

Note how they reward Abbas for sticking his ass in the air for them....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060392.html

Abbas gets the distinct honor of looking like a Vichy stooge for Israel in the eyes of the Palestinians, and the world wonders why Hamas is popular. Oh wait, it's because They Hate Freedom™.

Abbas gets the distinct honor of looking like a Vichy stooge for Israel in the eyes of the Palestinians, and the world wonders why Hamas is popular. Oh wait, it's because They Hate Freedom™.

Yeppers. Unless he has some scheme other than sitting on his ass enjoying USD and peace and quiet, I'd say he's sold them down the river. And of course, utterly discredited the peaceful approach, very fucking nice of him.

Yeppers. Unless he has some scheme other than sitting on his ass enjoying USD and peace and quiet, I'd say he's sold them down the river. And of course, utterly discredited the peaceful approach, very fucking nice of him.

Who wants to bet that the usual suspects (Jewish supremacists, war lovers, etc) will come in screaming that the Palestinians of the West Bank or maybe the Syrians and Egyptians are still at fault somehow?

I'd like to counsel everyone to be a little patient here. Nodinia, you seem to be shifting to a more extreme position...what was Abbas to do. Hamas was out to get him and he has had a very difficult time remaining neutral. This shit will pass and he will remain....for how long I don't know - but he spared his Palestine a bombing and an invasion.

Look, what seems to be happening around the world is a big backlash not only against Israel but against Jews in general. These situations often make for bitterness and racism is the result. It's certainly happening in Australia. So I'm asking everyone to be mindful of others and not to fan the flames of hysteria. When Jews and Arabs fight, both lose...both suffer a backlash in Christian dominated countries.
I just think it will be more productive to discuss peace initiatives.

Believe me, doing an Israel-bash just helps the right-wing in Israel. "I don't hate Jews! I don't hate Israel! I don't hate Hamas! I hate war and injustice!"
We need meaningful peace negotiations now.....

Who wants to bet that the usual suspects (Jewish supremacists, war lovers, etc) will come in screaming that the Palestinians of the West Bank or maybe the Syrians and Egyptians are still at fault somehow?


'The Muftis fault, therefore all Palestinians r teH Hitlergruber' or some such...'They hate our way of life'....'Israel is just like us' (Am I squatting in my neighbours house while they're chained in the yard? I think not.)


I'd like to counsel everyone to be a little patient here. Nodinia, you seem to be shifting to a more extreme position?

To be honest, you probably thought I was more moderate than I am. I don't go ra-ra for Hamas because of a number of reservations I have about their non-secular nature and rhetoric. However, as a general principle, I believe that certain circumstances justify armed resistance, particularily where peaceful avenues are denied.

...and.... scene!

Thank you everybody, good work, see you at the wrap.