NationStates Jolt Archive

"Palestinians say Israeli F-16 bombers have launched a series of air strikes against key targets in the Gaza Strip, killing and injuring dozens of people.

Missiles destroyed security compounds run by the militant group Hamas in the centre of Gaza City, killing at least 120 people, Hamas officials said. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm

Seeing as the whole 'kill loads and they'll lie down' thing hasn't worked for the 50 years they've been doing it, you'd think they'd try a different tack. No prizes for guessing what they'll do in response.

No prizes for guessing what they'll do in response.

*puts fingers to temples*

Hmmm. Launch a shed-load of missiles and rockets?

Blow up some houses?

Truly I wonder if there will be retaliatory rocket attacks on Sderot -_-

They'll launch laser-guided bulldozers from F-16s and Apaches to hit the homes of suspected terrorists and their relatives next.

Right now we've pretty much got a non-stop news report about what's happening. Right now according to the Palestinians there are 155 killed, and their hospitals can't support all the injured so they're sending people to Egypt.

They'll launch laser-guided bulldozers from F-16s and Apaches to hit the homes of suspected terrorists and their relatives next.
The problematic part of this sentence is "suspected".

*puts fingers to temples*

Hmmm. Launch a shed-load of missiles and rockets?

Once again, I have to decry my lack of a third level education. You college people, with your brains and political science degrees.....

Once again, I have to decry my lack of a third level education. You college people, with your brains and political science degrees.....

I could be wrong. Hopefully it's just flaming pork in catapults, but.... one can only dream.

I could be wrong. Hopefully it's just flaming pork in catapults, but.... one can only dream.

Oh, they can borrow my catapult, I got one for chrimbo.

It only fires about 4 feet but I looked at Israel on a map and it's tiny so it'll do just fine.

don't be silly their just setting the new year off with a bang :)

ugh, em slimy yehudim again...

don't be silly their just setting the new year off with a bang :)

And in a cool way. And, now I can reenact it with Ace Combat. There's a mission in it that just fits it. Except the radio chatter.

I watch now with a sort of detached morbid curiosity as nearly the entire population of that area shares a group delusion that their particular brand of authority figures have their best interests in mind or that somehow rationality will prevail over fearmongering. I was bewildered in 2004 when we re-elected Dubya. Imagine 50 years of that. Imagine 50 years of Dubya. It's kind of grotesque really.

I don't get how blowing the crap out of each other's civilians is seen as the way to end the struggle. They've been doing it for decades now and all it does is stir up more hate and ill-feeling.

I watch now with a sort of detached morbid curiosity as nearly the entire population of that area shares a group delusion that their particular brand of authority figures have their best interests in mind or that somehow rationality will prevail over fearmongering. I was bewildered in 2004 when we re-elected Dubya. Imagine 50 years of that. Imagine 50 years of Dubya. It's kind of grotesque really.

If you can supply the infiltration teams, I can supply the custard with which to replace all their munitions with.

If you can supply the infiltration teams, I can supply the custard with which to replace all their munitions with.

A strategy is being formulated as we speak. :D

Seeing as the whole 'kill loads and they'll lie down' thing hasn't worked for the 50 years they've been doing it, you'd think they'd try a different tack. No prizes for guessing what they'll do in response.

Suicide bombings.

Sometimes one is somewhat intrigued to wish that the fanatics of both Israel and Palestine just kill each other off for good. Then one thinks at how many innocent people on both sides would die in the process, and feels ashamed.:(

Z0MG! Thread R Bad! You're all Nazis for qustioning Israel!

Sorry I'm late. I was massively overeacting to a Gay Marriage thread and got caught up trolling people who disagreed with me.

I don't get how blowing the crap out of each other's civilians is seen as the way to end the struggle. They've been doing it for decades now and all it does is stir up more hate and ill-feeling.
If the Palestinians ever actually managed to kill anyone, both civilizations would have wiped each other out by now.

Suicide bombings.

It'll be interesting to see how effective the wall is at preventing suicide bombing attempts: if numerous bombers get through it'll be that much harder to justify; if none do then it'll be near impossible to get it taken down in the forseeable future.

And in a cool way. And, now I can reenact it with Ace Combat. There's a mission in it that just fits it. Except the radio chatter.

is there any schools in that game? >.>

Then one thinks at how many innocent people on both sides would die in the process, and feels ashamed.:(

would it make you feel any better if all the puppies would probabaly get it as well?

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/250/catkilldogcf0.jpg

If the Palestinians ever actually managed to kill anyone, both civilizations would have wiped each other out by now.

so Palestine is the Wyle-E-Coyote of the world?

Who decides what is "excessive retaliation" and what is "reasonable retaliation"? Israelis? Palestinians? Media? anonymous people on a forum?

Who decides what is "excessive retaliation" and what is "reasonable retaliation"? Israelis? Palestinians? Media? anonymous people on a forum?

Smedley. *nod*

If the Palestinians ever actually managed to kill anyone, both civilizations would have wiped each other out by now.

Their response has already killed at least one Israeli.

It'll be interesting to see how effective the wall is at preventing suicide bombing attempts: if numerous bombers get through it'll be that much harder to justify; if none do then it'll be near impossible to get it taken down in the forseeable future.

If the wall's purpose is focused on "Ban All Palestinians Because They're All Potential Suicide Bombers" then of course it'll work. But on the other hand, all it takes is an insider or two to build the suicide vest and strap it on from the other side of said wall to undermine the whole pretense.

Who decides what is "excessive retaliation" and what is "reasonable retaliation"? Israelis? Palestinians? Media? anonymous people on a forum?

Proportionality in the law, if it's a serious question.

Tony Blair is really doing a cracking job

If the wall's purpose is focused on "Ban All Palestinians Because They're All Potential Suicide Bombers" then of course it'll work.

Not necessarily: by some accounts there are ways to sneak through it, whether by gaps in the wall and tunnels under it. It remains to be seen how watertight it proves to be against attempted suicide bombings from Gaza.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081227/twl-israeli-attacks-on-gaza-kill-at-leas-41f21e0.html

205 dead, including schoolchildren.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081227/twl-israeli-attacks-on-gaza-kill-at-leas-41f21e0.html

205 dead, including schoolchildren.Well, the name "Israel" is an agenda. :(

is there any schools in that game? >.>


Well, no. And the mission is about a landing operation. But it looks like it!

Their response has already killed at least one Israeli.
Exactly. They kill 1 or 2 people, Israel kills 20-50 (conservatively).

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081227/D95B4B080.html



. . . 200 mortars and rockets raining down on Israel since the truce expired a week ago, and 3,000 since the beginning of the year. . . .

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation, but the withdrawal did not lead to better relations with Palestinians in the territory as Israeli officials had hoped.

Instead, the evacuation was followed by a sharp rise in militant attacks on Israeli border communities that on several occasions provoked harsh Israeli military reprisals.

If 3,000 mortars and rockets had been launched against California, Arizona and Texas from Mexico, there would have been few cries for a "proportional" response. True Americans would have demanded victory, not "proportionality".

Israel hasn't retaliated nearly enough.

"Peace" has never been the goal of the so-called Palestinians. Their real goal is every last piece of Israel.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081227/D95B4B080.html



If 3,000 mortars and rockets had been launched against California, Arizona and Texas from Mexico, there would have been few cries for a "proportional" response. True Americans would have demanded victory, not "proportionality".

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada? And that's what's going on here, Israel is being attacked, to the tune of 10 mortars fired into their sovereign space, every single day. As much as innocent civilian casualties are a tragedy and should be eliminated as much as possible, Israel isn't the aggressor here. As a nation, it has never attacked another country unprovoked. They are being attacked, and it's the sovereign right of any nation to defend itself from aggressors. If Mexico had lobbed 10 mortars a day every day for a year into our borders, there'd be tanks driving through the streets of Veracruz by now

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081227/D95B4B080.html



If 3,000 mortars and rockets had been launched against California, Arizona and Texas from Mexico, there would have been few cries for a "proportional" response. True Americans would have demanded victory, not "proportionality".

Israel hasn't retaliated nearly enough.

"Peace" has never been the goal of the so-called Palestinians. Their real goal is every last piece of Israel.

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada? And that's what's going on here, Israel is being attacked, to the tune of 10 mortars fired into their sovereign space, every single day. As much as innocent civilian casualties are a tragedy and should be eliminated as much as possible, Israel isn't the aggressor here. As a nation, it has never attacked another country unprovoked. They are being attacked, and it's the sovereign right of any nation to defend itself from aggressors. If Mexico had lobbed 10 mortars a day every day for a year into our borders, there'd be tanks driving through the streets of Veracruz by now

Bad comparison.

Mexico and Canada are independent nations with their own militaries with as much right to defend their territory from aggressors as those they aggress against. The Palestinians have no such luxury.

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada? And that's what's going on here, Israel is being attacked, to the tune of 10 mortars fired into their sovereign space, every single day. As much as innocent civilian casualties are a tragedy and should be eliminated as much as possible, Israel isn't the aggressor here. As a nation, it has never attacked another country unprovoked. They are being attacked, and it's the sovereign right of any nation to defend itself from aggressors. If Mexico had lobbed 10 mortars a day every day for a year into our borders, there'd be tanks driving through the streets of Veracruz by now
As true as that might be, firing missiles into Gaza - or turning off the electricity and water, for that matter - is not going to bring peace to the Middle East, if the last fifity years is any guide. Someone needs to say "no!" in this infantile game of tit for tat, and both Israel and Hamas are all to quick to say "yes."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081227/D95B4B080.html



If 3,000 mortars and rockets had been launched against California, Arizona and Texas from Mexico, there would have been few cries for a "proportional" response. True Americans would have demanded victory, not "proportionality".

Israel hasn't retaliated nearly enough.

"Peace" has never been the goal of the so-called Palestinians. Their real goal is every last piece of Israel.

Yes American would want victory against attackers. Look at what happen after 9/11. But we also try to hold our military in line so kids arent getting killed.

Bad comparison.

Mexico and Canada are independent nations with their own militaries with as much right to defend their territory from aggressors as those they aggress against. The Palestinians have no such luxury.

A puzzling statement, to say the least. Are you suggesting that, if a territory isn't "independent", that those who control that territory have the right to launch repeated attacks at neighoring states with impunity?

If a 14-year-old gangbanger who still lives at home with mommy shoots at a fully armed soldier, the punk won't have recourse to that excuse. He will simply get shot down, like he asked for.

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada? And that's what's going on here, Israel is being attacked, to the tune of 10 mortars fired into their sovereign space, every single day. As much as innocent civilian casualties are a tragedy and should be eliminated as much as possible, Israel isn't the aggressor here. As a nation, it has never attacked another country unprovoked. They are being attacked, and it's the sovereign right of any nation to defend itself from aggressors. If Mexico had lobbed 10 mortars a day every day for a year into our borders, there'd be tanks driving through the streets of Veracruz by now

Since the US is not occupying Mexico or Canada and has not kept on doing that for the last 30-40 years, nor is in a position to completely blocade either country and starve the population, and the US isn't randomly moving forces into either country to combat criminal elements while...

Aw fuck it.

The hypothetical just doesn't work. The history is too long, too complicated, and too violent on both sides to use such a simplistic analogy.

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada? And that's what's going on here, Israel is being attacked, to the tune of 10 mortars fired into their sovereign space, every single day. As much as innocent civilian casualties are a tragedy and should be eliminated as much as possible, Israel isn't the aggressor here. As a nation, it has never attacked another country unprovoked. They are being attacked, and it's the sovereign right of any nation to defend itself from aggressors. If Mexico had lobbed 10 mortars a day every day for a year into our borders, there'd be tanks driving through the streets of Veracruz by now

On the other hand, the United States hasn't occupying Mexican territory since the late 19th century, it doesn't have American settlers constantly expanding their grasp deeper into Mexican territory, legal Mexicans aren't turned back at the border and treated like likely terrorists based on their ethnicity, and not even the drug gangs (who don't want to encourage tighter crackdowns or literally shoot their biggest customer base) have any reason to launch an offensive strike into the United States. Not to mention the United States isn't slowly starving the Mexican populace to death out of spite.

The most appropriate comparison would be the 9-11 Attacks, but in that case the United States behaved appropriate by first demanding the Taliban hand over Bin Ladin, then moving in to clean house when they refused to. Of course when Little Georgie decided he could one-up Daddy by "finishing the job" in Iraq, things went downhill from there.

And do you really want to agree with someone who demanded Israel to pre-emptively bomb the shit out of Iran and the Palestinians as well as scream "FORT SUMTER!!" as a call for armed secession when Barack "Sauron" Obama was elected by the will of the people?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14170539&postcount=89

As true as that might be, firing missiles into Gaza - or turning off the electricity and water, for that matter - is not going to bring peace to the Middle East, if the last fifity years is any guide. Someone needs to say "no!" in this infantile game of tit for tat, and both Israel and Hamas are all to quick to say "yes."

Israel tried saying "no" by pulling out of Gaza. So much for that idea.

Bad comparison.

Mexico and Canada are independent nations with their own militaries with as much right to defend their territory from aggressors as those they aggress against. The Palestinians have no such luxury.

while true, at some point, shouldn't that be the problem of the palestinians who choose to attack a superior enemy? The fact that palestine isn't capable of defending itself against the enemy that THEY provoked....well that's kind of their own problem isn't it?

I mean, I would in no way support Israel just off handedly attacking Palestine, but they are being attacked, by an enemy that chose to attack them. At some level, you reap what you sew, and if you're not capable of withstanding attacks by an attack that YOU provoked...

This isn't a game, this isn't something that Israel can, or should, just shrug off with a sigh and an "oh well, if we attack them we'll crush them, so let's not do it". These are REAL mortars and REAL rockets that are being fired into Israel, that can kill REAL people. Israel has the right to defend its borders and its citizens, by force is necessary. The relative strength of the aggressor isn't really a concern. They're strong enough to demonstrate a valid and legitimate threat to the safety and lives of Israeli citizens. Israel has the right to neutralize that threat.

Now, I don't advocate them nuking Palestine, but again, at some level, you reap what you sew. They're strong enough to wage attacks into Israel.

Since the US is not occupying Mexico or Canada and has not kept on doing that for the last 30-40 years, nor is in a position to completely blocade either country and starve the population, and the US isn't randomly moving forces into either country to combat criminal elements while...

Aw fuck it.

The hypothetical just doesn't work. The history is too long, too complicated, and too violent on both sides to use such a simplistic analogy.

I admit it's not a perfect analogy, and the situation in Israel/Palestine is far more complex than the US with its peaceful and stable borders between Mexico and Canada, I'll grant you that.

On the other hand, complex or not, history or no history, Palestine is firing missiles into Israel. That requires a response. As a nation state, Israel is obligated to defend the lives and safety of its citizens, that is its primary duty.

On the other hand, complex or not, history or no history, Palestine is firing missiles into Israel. That requires a response.

And I suppose you find that injuring/killing/rendering homeless the many Palestinians whose only real crime happen to be standing in the same vicinity or family as the guerillas are acceptable responses?

Yes American would want victory against attackers. Look at what happen after 9/11. But we also try to hold our military in line so kids arent getting killed.

There are a number of ways to keep "kids" from "getting killed." One of them would be for Ham-ass not to hide among the civilian population.
But that's not going to happen, because Ham-ass wants "kids" to get killed as a consequence of their attacks on Israel so that they can use the casualties to divert attention from their attacks and stir up other Arabs.

A puzzling statement, to say the least. Are you suggesting that, if a territory isn't "independent", that those who control that territory have the right to launch repeated attacks at neighoring states with impunity?

If a 14-year-old gangbanger who still lives at home with mommy shoots at a fully armed soldier, the punk won't have recourse to that excuse. He will simply get shot down, like he asked for.

And if that 14 year old gangbanger lived three houses down the block, would you be a bit upset if the entire block got leveled by explosions? Especially if it wasn't even your country's soldier? DOuble especially if the reason that gangbanger shot that soldier is because the soldier was defending territory encroached upon by a foreign government? Triple especially if after 50 years of demolishing city blocks, killing gangbangers and their neighbors, annexing other people's land and retaliating against retaliations to your retaliations, so few people on both sides still haven't realized the utter futility of lashing out in blind anger and fear?

Seems like Israel felt like the Status Quo had to be strengthened. Hamas will only be strengthened by this actions, but there's an election coming up and I guess Tzipi Livni / Kadima and Ehud Barak / Labour are afraid that they won't get enough votes if they aren't seen as strong / willing to shed the blood of the innocents.

Hm. Kinda like Hamas in that respect I guess.

And I suppose you find that injuring/killing/rendering homeless the many Palestinians whose only real crime happen to be standing in the same vicinity or family as the guerillas are acceptable responses?

I am not nearly wise enough on the subject, nor am I inclined to play armchair general, to suggest what might be a more reasonable alternative, especially when those guerillas specifically and strategically chose to hide amongst civilian populations.

In short, I don't know enough about the situation, or military tactics, to suggest what an alternative tactic would be, while still completing its goals. The unfortunate fact of the matter is, we have yet to figure out how to have a war without innocent casualties, and by firing missles into sovereign territory, that's exactly what Palestine prompted, a war.

There are a number of ways to keep "kids" from "getting killed." One of them would be for Ham-ass not to hide among the civilian population.
But that's not going to happen, because Ham-ass wants "kids" to get killed as a consequence of their attacks on Israel so that they can use the casualties to divert attention from their attacks and stir up other Arabs.

That might actually be a good point if Hamas had a place to build a defendable military base.

Bad comparison.

Mexico and Canada are independent nations with their own militaries with as much right to defend their territory from aggressors as those they aggress against. The Palestinians have no such luxury.


Exactly this! +1 point to LG.

The Palestinians are a conquered people who are systematically being genocided against. They are denied food and medical supplies by their conquerors. At least most countries will provide some needs for their lands they conquered, sort of like the US giving some aid to Iraqis or Afghanis. Israel, however, has this weird thing going on. They don't want to let Palestine go, BUT they seem to say that the Palestinians need to fend for themselves, because Israel won't give them support. Then Israel, who doesn't want to give support, nor give them up, goes in and plants settlements in the Palestinian lands, which I believe is against a lot of international laws, namely the Fourth Geneva convention which protects conquered people from collective punishment, which, in reality, is happening in Palestine.

Meh, Screw Israel and its supporters. Bunch of warmongering monsters.

And if that 14 year old gangbanger lived three houses down the block, would you be a bit upset if the entire block got leveled by explosions? Especially if it wasn't even your country's soldier? DOuble especially if the reason that gangbanger shot that soldier is because the soldier was defending territory encroached upon by a foreign government? Triple especially if after 50 years of demolishing city blocks, killing gangbangers and their neighbors, annexing other people's land and retaliating against retaliations to your retaliations, so few people on both sides still haven't realized the utter futility of lashing out in blind anger and fear?

Gaza is no longer "under occupation." Residents of Gaza had the chance to end the "utter futility of lashing out in blind anger and fear." They chose to allow their territory to be used to continue "lashing out." So they can suffer the consequences of their choices.

That might actually be a good point if Hamas had a place to build a defendable military base.

and this would be a good point if Hamas cared about reducing innocent casualties. It doesn't.

That might actually be a good point if Hamas had a place to build a defendable military base.

That's hard luck for them, isn't it?

Meh, Screw Israel and its supporters. Bunch of warmongering monsters.

Then evidently, God himself is a warmongering monster. He promised that land to Israel, and he told them if they gave any of it away, he would punish them.

Its true, I read it in a Chick pamphlet.


Speaking as a born again Christian and reformed White supremacist, its hard for me to support Jews, but I have to. The guy on the 700 Club says if America doesn't support Israel, we'll have another Hurricane Katrina.

Please stop endangering American lives.

Bad comparison.

Mexico and Canada are independent nations with their own militaries with as much right to defend their territory from aggressors as those they aggress against. The Palestinians have no such luxury.


Exactly this! +1 point to LG.

The Palestinians are a conquered people who are systematically being genocided against. They are denied food and medical supplies by their conquerors. At least most countries will provide some needs for their lands they conquered, sort of like the US giving some aid to Iraqis or Afghanis. Israel, however, has this weird thing going on. They don't want to let Palestine go, BUT they seem to say that the Palestinians need to fend for themselves, because Israel won't give them support. Then Israel, who doesn't want to give support, nor give them up, goes in and plants settlements in the Palestinian lands, which I believe is against a lot of international laws, namely the Fourth Geneva convention which protects conquered people from collective punishment, which, in reality, is happening in Palestine. Funny enough, the Jewish state even breaks Jewish laws when handling the Palestinians. Tsk Tsk.

Meh, Screw Israel and its supporters. Bunch of warmongering monsters.

Gaza is no longer "under occupation." Residents of Gaza had the chance to end the "utter futility of lashing out in blind anger and fear." They chose to allow their territory to be used to continue "lashing out." So they can suffer the consequences of their choices.

I wonder how much land got annexed during that ceasefire...

I admit it's not a perfect analogy, and the situation in Israel/Palestine is far more complex than the US with its peaceful and stable borders between Mexico and Canada, I'll grant you that.

On the other hand, complex or not, history or no history, Palestine is firing missiles into Israel. That requires a response. As a nation state, Israel is obligated to defend the lives and safety of its citizens, that is its primary duty.

And while I agree with that, I don't see what Israel is doing now as "defending Israel". Attacking the launchers is one thing. Attacking "suspected terrorists" in the midle of a city - with what Israel deems "acceptible collateral damage" - does not seem to make Israel any safer. At least, it hasn't had a positive effect in the past.

I wonder how much land got annexed during that ceasefire...

AFAIK Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza strip.

That's hard luck for them, isn't it?

to bad they dont have the military and financial support from the world the same way isreal has.

And while I agree with that, I don't see what Israel is doing now as "defending Israel". Attacking the launchers is one thing. Attacking "suspected terrorists" in the midle of a city - with what Israel deems "acceptible collateral damage" - does not seem to make Israel any safer. At least, it hasn't had a positive effect in the past.

well again, I'm not going to play armchair general and try to presume I know the situation better. I will point out one thing thought. The death toll is about 200. Now, 200 lives is 200 lives, and we shouldn't ever celebrate death, however the fact that the death toll is "only" 200 doesn't suggest to me that Israel is not mindful of risk to civilians. If Israel truly wanted to go hog wild and not care about collateral damage, the death toll wouldn't be 200.

It would be in the tens of thousands.

And while I agree with that, I don't see what Israel is doing now as "defending Israel". Attacking the launchers is one thing. Attacking "suspected terrorists" in the midle of a city - with what Israel deems "acceptible collateral damage" - does not seem to make Israel any safer. At least, it hasn't had a positive effect in the past.

When I was in a militia, we used to talk a lot about "asymmetrical warfare", and since we couldn't take on the ZOG on the open ground because of their massive economic and military superiority, it was justifiable to operate a base from a city (or as we called them, Concrete Satan Scabs).

However, I spent some time studying urban guerilla engagements, in places like Ireland, Chechnya, and Warsaw. The price on non-combatants is so high, and the resulting alienation of the populace can be counter productive to any cause.

Plus, you have to buy a different kind of camoflauge.

to bad they dont have the military and financial support from the world the same way isreal has.

Yes, it is just too, too bad. And if they nevertheless choose to attack a superior foe, they will get what they ask for. As they are now getting.

Then evidently, God himself is a warmongering monster. He promised that land to Israel, and he told them if they gave any of it away, he would punish them.

Its true, I read it in a Chick pamphlet.


Speaking as a born again Christian and reformed White supremacist, its hard for me to support Jews, but I have to. The guy on the 700 Club says if America doesn't support Israel, we'll have another Hurricane Katrina.

Please stop endangering American lives.

Hammurab?

That's hard luck for them, isn't it?

Just them, huh? Maybe in 50 more years, you'll learn the futility of violence.

Hammurab?

What?

There are a number of ways to keep "kids" from "getting killed." One of them would be for Ham-ass not to hide among the civilian population.
I am not nearly wise enough on the subject, nor am I inclined to play armchair general, to suggest what might be a more reasonable alternative, especially when those guerillas specifically and strategically chose to hide amongst civilian populations.
I'm left wondering: What are the options? In this 360 square kilometer area, with an estimated population density of 4,118/km2 - where should Hamas go?

And how organized is Hamas? Are the people launching rockets independent of a central command, or are they well-disciplined forces?
Gaza is no longer "under occupation."
It is under de facto occupation.

and this would be a good point if Hamas cared about reducing innocent casualties. It doesn't.
Also a point: They don't care. And Israel is only playing into their hands. Civilian deaths does not weaken Hamas, it strengthens them. Which is why Israel should take all precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Hamas.

Just them, huh? Maybe in 50 more years, you'll learn the futility of violence.

Be fair. Violence has solved many territorial disputes, just not this one.

Anyway, when Jesus comes, he'll explain it to both sides.

Also a point: They don't care. And Israel is only playing into their hands. Civilian deaths does not weaken Hamas, it strengthens them. Which is why Israel should take all precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Hamas.

I agree. I would also point to the fact that the death toll is about 200 (and of those 200, certainly not all are innocent), which is way, way, way, WAY below what Israel is capable of, without much effort at all, and that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.

Just them, huh? Maybe in 50 more years, you'll learn the futility of violence.

As V-E and V-J Days, among others, prove, violence is not always "futile."

That is a very tired bromide. Please find another.

Also a point: They don't care. And Israel is only playing into their hands. Civilian deaths does not weaken Hamas, it strengthens them. Which is why Israel should take all precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Hamas.

That's deeply flawed reasoning. If massive civilian casualties resulted in more disaffected aggrieved people joining hostile organizations, the US actions in Iraq would have resulted in the same thing.


I'm serious.


What?

well again, I'm not going to play armchair general and try to presume I know the situation better. I will point out one thing thought. The death toll is about 200. Now, 200 lives is 200 lives, and we shouldn't ever celebrate death, however the fact that the death toll is "only" 200 doesn't suggest to me that Israel is not mindful of risk to civilians. If Israel truly wanted to go hog wild and not care about collateral damage, the death toll wouldn't be 200.

It would be in the tens of thousands.
This is true; But it still seems to me that the powers that be in Israel isn't opposed to using the situation to "send a message". The upcomming elections and the history of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians suggest that this might be the case.

Besides, Israel must take care not to upset the public perception in the US too much. They don't want to risk losing their support.

Plus, you have to buy a different kind of camoflauge.
:tongue:

Israel needs to get done what needs to be done before the pressure of "Palestinian" sympathizers starts getting out of hand.

I hear the Vatican just called on Israel to stop. When did the Vatican condemn Hamas for lobbing missiles blindly into Israel? I must have missed that.

I agree. I would also point to the fact that the death toll is about 200 (and of those 200, certainly not all are innocent), which is way, way, way, WAY below what Israel is capable of, without much effort at all, and that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.

What happened to the old days, bombs in cell phones...

Even in Hamas had the funds and wherewithal to build some sort of fortified military base, I don't think they would. Israel is too good at conventional wafare.

I wonder what percentage of Palestinians are just sick to shyte of both sides, and just want to go to work. They should form a militia.

I agree. I would also point to the fact that the death toll is about 200 (and of those 200, certainly not all are innocent), which is way, way, way, WAY below what Israel is capable of, without much effort at all, and that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.
Oh, and I should add that the final death toll we'll see probably will be an inflated number. Not only because it can be difficult to count accurately, but because the Palestinians have something to gain by presenting higher numbers.

That's deeply flawed reasoning. If massive civilian casualties resulted in more disaffected aggrieved people joining hostile organizations, the US actions in Iraq would have resulted in the same thing.


I'm serious.


What?

Oh nothing, nothing. This is the look I give all people wearing such hats as you do ;)

Israel needs to get done what needs to be done before the pressure of "Palestinian" sympathizers starts getting out of hand.

I hear the Vatican just called on Israel to stop. When did the Vatican condemn Hamas for lobbing missiles blindly into Israel? I must have missed that.

Excuse me, but I don't think you have the post count to be credible here.

Seriously, though, the Vatican hasn't said anything about Hamas? Maybe they don't want to seem like they're picking on them.

Excuse me, but I don't think you have the post count to be credible here.

Seriously, though, the Vatican hasn't said anything about Hamas? Maybe they don't want to seem like they're picking on them.
Says Mr Seven-Post?

I agree. I would also point to the fact that the death toll is about 200 (and of those 200, certainly not all are innocent), which is way, way, way, WAY below what Israel is capable of, without much effort at all, and that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.

All of this assumes facts not in evidence. How does anyone know that the casualties in question 1) were actually inflicted by Israel and 2) were "innocent"? Ham-ass's word for it means nothing.

But assuming they were, again, the responsibility lies solely with Ham-ass.

And one more point: the "recruitment" logic (such as it is) should work both ways. Israel's enemies should be made to worry about taking precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Israel.

Says Mr Seven-Post?

Almost an order of magnitute higher than his! Or hers. Theirs. Thems.

Says Mr Seven-Post?

I don't think this is his first foray into the waters of NSG.

Yes, it is just too, too bad. And if they nevertheless choose to attack a superior foe, they will get what they ask for. As they are now getting.

Just as isreal get what it deserves from attacking palestinian civilians.

that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.

Given the way both sides act I dont think it is a worry about palestinain civilians, but more about their international support. if they killed a lot they might even be risking other nations jumping in and fighting.

All of this assumes facts not in evidence. How does anyone know that the casualties in question 1) were actually inflicted by Israel and 2) were "innocent"? Ham-ass's word for it means nothing.

But assuming they were, again, the responsibility lies solely with Ham-ass.

And one more point: the "recruitment" logic (such as it is) should work both ways. Israel's enemies should be made to worry about taking precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Israel.

Israel doesn't have a problem with recruitment. Their units are well staffed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMe1HfPNq7Y&mode=related&search

Israel doesn't have a problem with recruitment. Their units are well staffed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMe1HfPNq7Y&mode=related&search

hey, how's the weather in vegas?

hey, how's the weather in vegas?

I don't know, I live in Montana. I scramble my ISP with a special device I got from the Montana Eagles of Christ Youth Militia And Arbonne Distributorship.

I don't know, I live in Montana. I scramble my ISP with a special device I got from the Montana Eagles of Christ Youth Militia And Arbonne Distributorship.

deny, obfuscate and argue. You learn well young padawin.

I don't know, I live in Montana. I scramble my ISP with a special device I got from the Montana Eagles of Christ Youth Militia And Arbonne Distributorship.
Youth Militia...?

:eek:

Excuse me, but I don't think you have the post count to be credible here.

Seriously, though, the Vatican hasn't said anything about Hamas? Maybe they don't want to seem like they're picking on them.

You don't have to take me seriously. It's the internet. What was your post-count after your first post?

All of this assumes facts not in evidence. How does anyone know that the casualties in question 1) were actually inflicted by Israel and 2) were "innocent"? Ham-ass's word for it means nothing.
...and obviously, neither does the word of varying NGO's and observers filing reports of course. But nevermind reality.

But assuming they were, again, the responsibility lies solely with Ham-ass.
Nope.

And one more point: the "recruitment" logic (such as it is) should work both ways. Israel's enemies should be made to worry about taking precautions not to kill innocent people and do the recruitment work for Israel.
Doesn't it?

Youth Militia...?

:eek:

Yeah, you can't join the adult Montana Militia until you're an able bodies male aged 17-45.

Speaking of which...I remember a program where Israeli and Palestinian adolescent girls were invited to a wildnerness summer camp thing, and they got along just fine.

Maybe we should start bringing the adults to summer camp.

Netanyahu can teach desert commando tactics, and whoever took over for Arafat can do balloon animals or something.

Nodinia, you really hit the mark with the title of this thread. :hail:

Tony Blair is really doing a cracking job

Yeah, you can see the quality.

As much as these words sour in my mouth, I agree with NM here. It's easy to decry Israel's actions, but how many of us would say the same if it was America being attacked by Mexico and Canada?

Well, if you were building colonies in Mexico and Canada I'd say you fucking deserved it, meself.

That requires a response. As a nation state, Israel is obligated to defend the lives and safety of its citizens, that is its primary duty.

You'll find that the scale of this assault has a great deal more to do with the Likud lead in the polls.

AFAIK Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza strip.

and then focused its resources on the West bank, increasing settlement expansion.

You don't have to take me seriously. It's the internet. What was your post-count after your first post?

.........

.........

This is a trick question, isn't it? Like "Who's barried in Grant's Tomb?" or "If you overtake the second place runner, what place are you in?" or "What do people do if they won't live together but won't kill eachother all the way?"

Nodinia, you really hit the mark with the title of this thread. :hail:

Oh, miss innocent wanders in.

Well, I happen to know that you are the reincarnation of an artist, beautiful young girl who lived in Spain during Franco's time, but she was killed in the bombing at Guernica, burned alive, trying desperately to shield her little sister from the carnage, only to end as a blackened, charred pair of corpses, mouths opened in the muted howl of the hopeless dead, and now, your spirit is etched with the monstrous vileness of all war, and soon, when your body is ready, you will take that very evil, and distill it in the crucible of your own pure soul, and become the dark headed lovely death that finds the wrongful perpetuators of conflict, and you will show them how precise a killing can be...

And while I agree with that, I don't see what Israel is doing now as "defending Israel". Attacking the launchers is one thing. Attacking "suspected terrorists" in the midle of a city - with what Israel deems "acceptible collateral damage" - does not seem to make Israel any safer. At least, it hasn't had a positive effect in the past.

This. ^

AFAIK Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza strip.

You mean besides those settlers that are still building in the supposedly "withdrawn" area? The ones the Palestinians have been given cameras to record abusing those who come in to try and live on the land they supposedly left?

Hammurab?

I had the same thought.

I agree. I would also point to the fact that the death toll is about 200 (and of those 200, certainly not all are innocent), which is way, way, way, WAY below what Israel is capable of, without much effort at all, and that this does seem indicative of the fact that Israel is taking precautions to limit the deaths of innocent people.

Spoken like a lawyer. Because they CAN wipe them off the map, and don't, THAT's restraint. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that EITHER side of this mess is in the right. The Palestinians are suffering from decisions made on their behalf back in 1947-48. The Israelis are suffering from Exodus syndrome. It's hard to reason with anyone who believes "this land is mine / God gave this land to me".

Oh, miss innocent wanders in.

Well, I happen to know that you are the reincarnation of an artist, beautiful young girl who lived in Spain during Franco's time, but she was killed in the bombing at Guernica, burned alive, trying desperately to shield her little sister from the carnage, only to end as a blackened, charred pair of corpses, mouths opened in the muted howl of the hopeless dead, and now, your spirit is etched with the monstrous vileness of all war, and soon, when your body is ready, you will take that very evil, and distill it in the crucible of your own pure soul, and become the dark headed lovely death that finds the wrongful perpetuators of conflict, and you will show them how precise a killing can be...

It IS Hammurab!

Yeah, you can't join the adult Montana Militia until you're an able bodies male aged 17-45.

Speaking of which...I remember a program where Israeli and Palestinian adolescent girls were invited to a wildnerness summer camp thing, and they got along just fine.

I think we should send all Israeli and Palestinian youth to summer camps, Russian style. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471324/Sex-motherland-Russian-youths-encouraged-procreate-camp.html) That could make peace ;)

The Israelis are suffering from Exodus syndrome. It's hard to reason with anyone who believes "this land is mine / God gave this land to me".

If you are Jewish, be VERY careful saying this. God has a special covenant with your people, and does not suffer ingratitude lightly. God has said that Israel IS for the Jews, and if they bargain it away, they will suffer the same fate as Esau who did not love his birthright.

That's what God is, you know. A very angry, inflexible zoning board.

Oh, miss innocent wanders in.

Well, I happen to know that you are the reincarnation of an artist, beautiful young girl who lived in Spain during Franco's time, but she was killed in the bombing at Guernica, burned alive, trying desperately to shield her little sister from the carnage, only to end as a blackened, charred pair of corpses, mouths opened in the muted howl of the hopeless dead, and now, your spirit is etched with the monstrous vileness of all war, and soon, when your body is ready, you will take that very evil, and distill it in the crucible of your own pure soul, and become the dark headed lovely death that finds the wrongful perpetuators of conflict, and you will show them how precise a killing can be...

Wait, what?

It IS Hammurab!

The fuck is a "Hammurab"?

I think we should send all Israeli and Palestinian youth to summer camps, Russian style. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471324/Sex-motherland-Russian-youths-encouraged-procreate-camp.html) That could make peace ;)

Da! Harasho!

Sign me up, I'll bring my Jesus Lives thermos that I got last year at the Extreme Ministries Snowboard For the Nails In His Hands event!

I wonder what percentage of Palestinians are just sick to shyte of both sides, and just want to go to work. They should form a militia.

Hmmm, that'd be damn clever because then Israel would have no cause to attack them anymore. That'd show those miserable Jews!


...and I see that LG edited out his "proportional response" statement. Good to see that even he sees the lameness of such a statement/strategy. Proportional response=/= deterrent.

Hmmm, that'd be damn clever because then Israel would have no cause to attack them anymore. That'd show those miserable Jews!


...and I see that LG edited out his "proportional response" statement. Good to see that even he sees the lameness of such a statement/strategy. Proportional response=/= deterrent.

An excessive response can equal an excacerbent, though. Is that a word?

The fuck is a "Hammurab"?

The "As a *insert random extremist*" gave you away man.

You shot your load too early.

The "As a *insert random extremist*" gave you away man.

You shot your load too early.

First of all, that is a serious medical problem and should not be joked about.

Second, you don't think that the teachings of Jesus can save a person from a hateful belief system like White Supremacy?

Go to any prison chapel, and you'll see plenty of heads bowed in prower, the SS lightning bolts still on their necks.

Not all Christians are members of Christian Identity, the group that believes that white English people are actually the ones referred to in the Bible as Israel.

First of all, that is a serious medical problem and should not be joked about.

Second, you don't think that the teachings of Jesus can save a person from a hateful belief system like White Supremacy?

Go to any prison chapel, and you'll see plenty of heads bowed in prower, the SS lightning bolts still on their necks.

Not all Christians are members of Christian Identity, the group that believes that white English people are actually the ones referred to in the Bible as Israel.

I like you. Now get your arse over to this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=577710), pronto!

An excessive response can equal an excacerbent, though. Is that a word?

Do you mean exacerbate? Of course violence breed violence - lok at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never thought that the attack would create such an uproar in the USA. Now the US did not decide to just go and bomb a Japanese Harbor. Nor did they stop when they destroyed the Japanese Pacific Fleet. Either of these would have been 'proportional'.

The USA continued until the will to fight had left the people of Japan and the futility of continuing had overwhelmed them.

Had the USA stopped after a 'proportional' response we'd likely still be trading bombs with Japan - just as Israel is with her neighbors. For peace to exist in the middle east the war must be completed - fought until one side or the other no longer has ability, desire and will left to fight. Artificially interrupting the process has done far more to exacerbate the problem than any single days fighting ever did.

Then evidently, God himself is a warmongering monster. He promised that land to Israel, and he told them if they gave any of it away, he would punish them.

Its true, I read it in a Chick pamphlet.


Speaking as a born again Christian and reformed White supremacist, its hard for me to support Jews, but I have to. The guy on the 700 Club says if America doesn't support Israel, we'll have another Hurricane Katrina.

Please stop endangering American lives.

I highly doubt that God would support a group of people who claim to be followers of God, when in reality they break their own Jewish laws, as well as persecute Christians living in the West Bank. I'm sorry but I don't follow a god that demands persecutions of his own people in their homeland, nor would would I support the persecuting of anyone of any religion in any territory, at anytime.

But the religion aspect to this is a different topic for a different day. :)

Do you mean exacerbate? Of course violence breed violence - lok at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never thought that the attack would create such an uproar in the USA. Now the US did not decide to just go and bomb a Japanese Harbor. Nor did they stop when they destroyed the Japanese Pacific Fleet. Either of these would have been 'proportional'.

The USA continued until the will to fight had left the people of Japan and the futility of continuing had overwhelmed them.

Had the USA stopped after a 'proportional' response we'd likely still be trading bombs with Japan - just as Israel is with her neighbors. For peace to exist in the middle east the war must be completed - fought until one side or the other no longer has ability, desire and will left to fight. Artificially interrupting the process has done far more to exacerbate the problem than any single days fighting ever did.

The important difference here is, when the U.S. occupied Japan they went through all the trouble to help the Japanese become self-sufficient and then pulled out once it was all said and done. The only thing Israel's helped the Palestinians with in their occupation is unifying populace resentment and driving up recruitment for guerilla and terrorist groups.

And helped themselves to more land, don't forget.

Do you mean exacerbate? Of course violence breed violence - lok at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never thought that the attack would create such an uproar in the USA. Now the US did not decide to just go and bomb a Japanese Harbor. Nor did they stop when they destroyed the Japanese Pacific Fleet. Either of these would have been 'proportional'.

The USA continued until the will to fight had left the people of Japan and the futility of continuing had overwhelmed them.

Had the USA stopped after a 'proportional' response we'd likely still be trading bombs with Japan - just as Israel is with her neighbors. For peace to exist in the middle east the war must be completed - fought until one side or the other no longer has ability, desire and will left to fight. Artificially interrupting the process has done far more to exacerbate the problem than any single days fighting ever did.


And its thinking like that which leads to genocide, and extermination of entire populations. Keep up the good work!

Israel tried saying "no" by pulling out of Gaza. So much for that idea.
Gaza was, until the Hamas takeover, under de facto Israeli control, and Israel still continued the occupation and settlement of the West Bank. Hardly a determined peace effort, although we all wish it could have turned out better.

And its thinking like that which leads to genocide, and extermination of entire populations. Keep up the good work!

last time I checked, Japan is doing pretty well.

Do you mean exacerbate? Of course violence breed violence - lok at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never thought that the attack would create such an uproar in the USA. Now the US did not decide to just go and bomb a Japanese Harbor. Nor did they stop when they destroyed the Japanese Pacific Fleet. Either of these would have been 'proportional'.

The USA continued until the will to fight had left the people of Japan and the futility of continuing had overwhelmed them.

Had the USA stopped after a 'proportional' response we'd likely still be trading bombs with Japan - just as Israel is with her neighbors. For peace to exist in the middle east the war must be completed - fought until one side or the other no longer has ability, desire and will left to fight. Artificially interrupting the process has done far more to exacerbate the problem than any single days fighting ever did.
Unfortunately, wiping your enemy off the map is no longer an option in the civilised world.

And its thinking like that which leads to genocide, and extermination of entire populations. Keep up the good work!

Right, just like the US exterminated the entire population of Japan.

Next time I watch Iron Chef, I'll see if I can figure out how they impersonate extinct Japanese cooks so well. :p

Good to see that even he sees the lameness of such a statement/strategy. Proportional response=/= deterrent.
Luckily, the disporportional responses that Israel has offered during the last decade have successfully deterred the Palestinians from even thinking of shooting a single missile into Israel.

(Maybe you think a more disproportional response will lead to a different result? It might. Some nasty side effects will occur though...)

Unfortunately, wiping your enemy off the map is no longer an option in the civilised world.

That hasn't stopped a few NSGers from still proposing genocide as a legitimate political solution.

Luckily, the disporportional response that Israel has offered during the last decade have successfully deterred the Palestinians from even thinking of shooting a single missile into Israel.

(Maybe you think a more disproportional response will lead to a different result? It might. Some nasty side effects will occur though...)

well certainly it will. If you make the consequence of violence painful enough, nobody will engage in it. Unfortunately the side effect of painful consequences is many, many dead civilians.

well certainly it will. If you make the consequence of violence painful enough, nobody will engage in it. Unfortunately the side effect of painful consequences is many, many dead civilians.

Most people would see it as:

well certainly it will. If you make the consequence of violence painful enough, nobody will engage in it. Fortunately the side effect of painful consequences is many, many dead Arab Muslims.

Gaza was, until the Hamas takeover, under de facto Israeli control, and Israel still continued the occupation and settlement of the West Bank. Hardly a determined peace effort, although we all wish it could have turned out better.

As far as Gaza was concerned, it was no longer occupied. Ham-ass seized control of Gaza by force from Abbas' government, not from Israel.

Gaza inhabitants had no legitimate reason to continue aggression against Israel. If they'd sought peaceful relations, they would have had them, along with all the benefits thereof. They chose violence instead.

Unfortunately, wiping your enemy off the map is no longer an option in the civilised world.

That assumes that the enemy refuses to give up the fight before being "wiped off the map." It is possible that even the so-called Palestinians aren't that foolish.

As V-E and V-J Days, among others, prove, violence is not always "futile."

That is a very tired bromide. Please find another.

Celebrating the end of completely avoidable conflicts that cost the lives of millions hardly proves the efficacy of bloodshed.

Oh, miss innocent wanders in.

Well, I happen to know that you are the reincarnation of an artist, beautiful young girl who lived in Spain during Franco's time, but she was killed in the bombing at Guernica, burned alive, trying desperately to shield her little sister from the carnage, only to end as a blackened, charred pair of corpses, mouths opened in the muted howl of the hopeless dead, and now, your spirit is etched with the monstrous vileness of all war, and soon, when your body is ready, you will take that very evil, and distill it in the crucible of your own pure soul, and become the dark headed lovely death that finds the wrongful perpetuators of conflict, and you will show them how precise a killing can be...

*pounces*
You must be Hammurab! And if you're not, you just got a free hug from Nanatsu.:fluffle:

*pounces*
You must be Hammurab! And if you're not, you just got a free hug from Nanatsu.:fluffle:

See here, you sultry Iberian slattern, I'll not be labeled.

See here, you sultry Iberian slattern, I'll not be labeled.

I like the compliments, but, pardon me if I don't know the meaning of ''slattern''. Could you please, Sir Baldwin, offer the definition of it to this Iberian girl?

I like the compliments, but, pardon me if I don't know the meaning of ''slattern''. Could you please, Sir Baldwin, offer the definition of it to this Iberian girl?

it means you're a whore, dear.

it means you're a whore, dear.

...

...

what? That's exactly what it means. A "slattern" means "prostitute"

what? That's exactly what it means. A "slattern" means "prostitute"

No, it's just that the definition caught me off guard. Thanks for posting it, though.

what? That's exactly what it means. A "slattern" means "prostitute"

to be fair, it's also a "dirty and untidy woman" there are multiple defs. It's from a root similar to slovenly.

See here, you sultry Iberian slattern, I'll not be labeled.

I like the compliments, but, pardon me if I don't know the meaning of ''slattern''. Could you please, Sir Baldwin, offer the definition of it to this Iberian girl?

it means you're a whore, dear.

...

what? That's exactly what it means. A "slattern" means "prostitute"

No, it's just that the definition caught me off guard. Thanks for posting it, though.

Clearly an inaccurate term as Nanatsu would never sell what she would perfectly willingly give away. :)

:fluffle:

...

Basically, he just called you a sexy Spanish hooker...

...and I can see why.

:fluffle:?

Clearly an inaccurate term as Nanatsu would never sell what she would perfectly willingly give away. :)

:fluffle:

Thanks, LG. :wink:

Can we please table the issue of the harlots of Hispania long enough to settle the more immediate and less fiery question of middle east peace?

Can we please table the issue of the harlots of Hispania long enough to settle the more immediate and less fiery question of middle east peace?

Perhaps one is the answer to the other?

Can we please table the issue of the harlots of Hispania long enough to settle the more immediate and less fiery question of middle east peace?

Get everyone to forget about ideology and religion and only focus on humanitarian concerns. Get everyone to compromise just a little on everythinhg including territory and resources, and deny their urges for violence. Forget about past transgressions, forego revenge, and start over with a clean slate. Work our way up from there.

Simple, really...

Well, the Israeli's had to celebrate christmas by lighting up a few palestinians.

On the bright side...They (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/27/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html#cnnSTCText) might keep firing rockets during the new year's eve as well.

Perhaps it's just a Happy Holidays message to Palestinians?

(note: yes, I know jews don't celebrate christmas and yes, it's an attempt at humour)

Well, the Israeli's had to celebrate christmas by lighting up a few palestinians.

On the bright side...They (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/27/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html#cnnSTCText) might keep firing rockets during the new year's eve as well.


(note: yes, I know most of them don't celebrate christmas and yes, it's an attempt at humour)

That's Easter man, you know, when the Jews lets off fireworks to celebrate killing Christ our Saviour.

That's Easter man, you know, when the Jews lets off fireworks to celebrate killing Christ our Saviour.
Hmm, I have to wonder if they have enough rockets, or targets, for a third of a year long celebrations...

Celebrating the end of completely avoidable conflicts that cost the lives of millions hardly proves the efficacy of bloodshed.

Er, yes, actually it does. The Allies crushed Hitler and Tojo. They did it through the application of violence. Whether or not WWII was "completely avoidable" or not is unanswerable and irrelevant. They started it. We finished it. In this case, bloodshed was highly efficacious.

LG, you don't really intend that statement to be taken seriously, do you? :confused:

Hmm, I have to wonder if they have enough rockets, or targets, for a third of a year long celebrations...

Don't worry, there are plenty of women and childre...I meant evil terrorists for them to light up.

I expect this years display to be fabulous.

Don't worry, there are plenty of women and childre...I meant evil terrorists for them to light up.

I expect this years display to be fabulous.
Good, good...

I do think the color red suits the celebrations well, even though the sheer amounts of it could be considered a bit excessive by some.

Don't worry, there are plenty of women and childre...I meant evil terrorists for them to light up.

I expect this years display to be fabulous.

See. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm)

See. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm)
Israel said it...would bomb "as long as necessary".

Ah, the jolly good ole fun of bombing the shit out of palestinians.

As V-E and V-J Days, among others, prove, violence is not always "futile."
Aye, because what is essentially an armed territorial dispute between neighbouring people, both of whom want a pretty small area, is exactly the same as the German and Japanese Empires' attacks on massive powers in their quest for global domination of their race, in doing so killing millions on ethnic grounds and changing the fortunes of world superpowers.

Israel said it...would bomb "as long as necessary".

Ah, the jolly good ole fun of bombing the shit out of palestinians.

I like:

Calls for a ceasefire also came from Middle East envoy Tony Blair and the French EU presidency.

Only slightly more important than the French government and less than every other call for peace. The reverend smiler is doing well as the middle east peace envoy.

Israel said it...would bomb "as long as necessary".

Ah, the jolly good ole fun of bombing the shit out of palestinians.

Ethnic Oppression is like Pringles. Sure you complain about it, but once you try it you just can't stop with one.

Ethnic Oppression is like Pringles. Sure you complain about it, but once you try it you just can't stop with one.Once you bomb, you can't stop

Nodinia, you really hit the mark with the title of this thread. :hail:


Thank you madam. No need to put up a bowing smiley, nudie pics via TG are sufficient praise.

And verily the tribes of the Sinai fell to warring among each other until a new Pharaoh arose out of Egypt and conquered them again; from whence he setteth them to new labours rebuiding the Pyramids and the dwellers in Palestine were content for, although they werew ruled by a tyrant, they had gainful employment.
Here endeth the lesson.

Do you mean exacerbate? Of course violence breed violence - lok at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never thought that the attack would create such an uproar in the USA.

You're completely off the mark.

Thank you madam. No need to put up a bowing smiley, nudie pics via TG are sufficient praise.

;)

OP: this is a region so volatile. It's been so for the past 2,500 years or more. I don't see the violence stopping yet. My take would be to let them blow their heads off. But that's surely an inhumane way to take it.

Israel is defending itself, but that those not make the slaughtering of innocent Palestinians a good thing. Palestine attacks Israel, Israel retaliates. Endless cycle. Although it's mean of me to say it, I'm not anymore surprised by this than the average person. The fighting will continue, I just hope both groups would finally recognize the sovereignty of the other. But I guess that's not the sole way of fixing this.

3,000 years of hate and war won't stop anytime soon.

There is too much external interference in Palestine and such a legacy of hate for the warring factions to turn swords into ploughshares for the forseeable future.
The extreme right of the settler movement and Hamas don't want peace - they have a fanatic's eye that calls for continued bloodshed - they want genocide.
Meanwhile, the powerful neighbours in the region are content to keep Israel occupied with the Palestinians.
Brobdinang and Lilliput ?

Hopefully Obama will make a difference but there is just so much bad blood.

And Aryavartha, you were right about the Mumbai terrorists being Pakistanis but I was right about the terror attack being a ploy to get the Pakistani army facing the Indians rather than harassing the Taliban centres in Pakistan.
"Provoke a reaction that leads to a counter-reaction" is the oldest trick in the book.

Hopefully Obama will make a difference
Aaaahahahaha. No.

We simply don't know what difference Obama will make at this stage. The Republican Right appeared to have as much ill-will to the region as the Iran government. It's great to have a two-dimensional objective enemy to point the finger (and weapons) at.

If Obama doesn't end that nonsense, his honeymoon will end quickly (both internationally and domestically).

We simply don't know what difference Obama will make at this stage. The Republican Right appeared to have as much ill-will to the region as the Iran government. It's great to have a two-dimensional objective enemy to point the finger (and weapons) at.

If Obama doesn't end that nonsense, his honeymoon will end quickly (both internationally and domestically).

I really don't think the end of the conflict between Palestine and Israel lies in Barrack Obama's hands, Collectivity.

We simply don't know what difference Obama will make at this stage. The Republican Right appeared to have as much ill-will to the region as the Iran government. It's great to have a two-dimensional objective enemy to point the finger (and weapons) at.

If Obama doesn't end that nonsense, his honeymoon will end quickly (both internationally and domestically).
Aye I'm sure that Clinton is going to willing to engage with players in the region like Syria and Iran in a hurry -_-

Dear Yootopia, how about for your New Year's resolution, you change roles from resident hardline skeptic to the one putting out the hypotheses about how the world will get along in 2009?

Dear Yootopia, how about for your New Year's resolution, you change roles from resident hardline skeptic to the one putting out the hypotheses about how the world will get along in 2009?
I do put out those hypotheses. "Poorly" is as valid a way of getting along as "really well".

2009 is going to be a pretty shit year. I'll be turning 20 (am 19 in 1 minute), countries will be poorer, more Brits are off to die in Afghanistan, won't be finding gainful employment outside of uni and the weather probably won't be getting all that much better.

I'm a 56 year old optimist. Our generation is counting on yours to save the planet. Good luck with that!

Happy birthday yoot!

I'm a 56 year old optimist. Our generation is counting on yours to save the planet. Good luck with that!
Aye I wouldn't, we're all going to be fatarsed whiners by 2030. Even more so than you guys were in the 1980s and onwards.
Happy birthday yoot!
Thank you kindly.

I'm a 56 year old optimist. Our generation is counting on yours to save the planet. Good luck with that!Why we? You fucked up the planet, so clean up the planet.

Good call HappyLesbo! It's your shit, so clean it up! I'll do what I can but you guys have to help unless you enjoy seeing polar bears dogpaddling across the Arctic Ocean.
Now Natatsu, I agree that Obama alone can't do much.
The one thing he can do is reverse the moronic neo-con policy of turning a blind eye to settler-inspired pogroms that preceded the ending of the "Truce" by Hamas and the massive military over-reaction by Israel (not that Hamas hadn't been warned).
It is absolutely true that Israelis and Palestinian have to want peace.
It has to get to the stage where the local sides wake up to the lose-lose nature of blood feuds.
Prime Minister Rabin and Yassar Arafat were coming close to that realisation and working on a peace deal when right-wing Israeli Yigal Amir assassinated him. Yigal Amir should take a bow for cursing Israel with another generation of violence.

By the way, the situation has moved on from a "two-state solution". There is Israel and potentially two Palestinian states - West Bank and Gaza. Maybe the negotiations should proceed from there.

Now Natatsu, I agree that Obama alone can't do much.
The one thing he can do is reverse the moronic neo-con policy of turning a blind eye to settler-inspired pogroms that preceded the ending of the "Truce" by Hamas and the massive military over-reaction by Israel (not that Hamas hadn't been warned).
It is absolutely true that Israelis and Palestinian have to want peace.
It has to get to the stage where the local sides wake up to the lose-lose nature of blood feuds.
Prime Minister Rabin and Yassar Arafat were coming close to that realisation and working on a peace deal when right-wing Israeli Yigal Amir assassinated him. Yigal Amir should take a bow for cursing Israel with another generation of violence.

By the way, the situation has moved on from a "two-state solution". There is Israel and potentially two Palestinian states - West Bank and Gaza. Maybe the negotiations should proceed from there.

I surely hope so because, as things stand, the entirety of the US army and allied forces won't be able to put a stop to the fighting. In the end, the peace promise lies in the hands of Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

Good call HappyLesbo! It's your shit, so clean it up! I'll do what I can but you guys have to help unless you enjoy seeing polar bears dogpaddling across the Arctic Ocean.
Now Natatsu, I agree that Obama alone can't do much.
The one thing he can do is reverse the moronic neo-con policy of turning a blind eye to settler-inspired pogroms that preceded the ending of the "Truce" by Hamas and the massive military over-reaction by Israel (not that Hamas hadn't been warned).
It is absolutely true that Israelis and Palestinian have to want peace.
It has to get to the stage where the local sides wake up to the lose-lose nature of blood feuds.
Prime Minister Rabin and Yassar Arafat were coming close to that realisation and working on a peace deal when right-wing Israeli Yigal Amir assassinated him. Yigal Amir should take a bow for cursing Israel with another generation of violence.

By the way, the situation has moved on from a "two-state solution". There is Israel and potentially two Palestinian states - West Bank and Gaza. Maybe the negotiations should proceed from there.

I think Obama could do a lot if he set out, newly elected, to make a peace deal. I mean a major push, using much of the political capital he acquired by being swept into office.

But will he? I kindly doubt it. If one accepts the foreign policy axiom of "Nuclear war must be avoided at all costs" (which I do) then one must remember that Palestine is not armed with nuclear weapons. So on a list of priorities, the Pakistan/India conflict could easily take precedence over Israel/Palestine. Russia is causing tensions and they have the second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world. North Korea is by no means free of trouble and they're screwing around with nuclear material, and Iran is messing around, too. Iran may have the legal right to nuclear technology for civilian use, but no one believes what they're making is for civilian use.

I think an appropriate solution would be something like Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders (without any sneaky unreported settlements, which Israel has repeatedly been guilty of trying to get by with) in exchange for Hamas acting like a government instead of an anti-Israeli crusade. Hamas has to recognize that Israel has the right to exist.

And that's the negotiation. How you get both parties to listen to that proposal I have no idea, but I will say that Hamas firing rockets into Israel, and also Israel's outrageous responses to those rockets are not helping and are just prolonging the issue. It's all very unfortunate indeed.

Now Natatsu, I agree that Obama alone can't do much.
The one thing he can do is reverse the moronic neo-con policy of turning a blind eye to settler-inspired pogroms that preceded the ending of the "Truce" by Hamas and the massive military over-reaction by Israel (not that Hamas hadn't been warned).

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAA.http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4BA1C820081211
Welcome to reality, kid.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAA.http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4BA1C820081211
Welcome to reality, kid.

Now explain how Obama offering to cover Israel incase Iran actually has nuclear weapons and threatens to use them is the same as looking the other way and giving a free pass to asshole settlers.

I'm a 56 year old optimist. Our generation is counting on yours to save the planet. Good luck with that!

Thanks, your generation screws it all up and we are expected to clean up?

Thanks, your generation screws it all up and we are expected to clean up?They're such bastards. :)
Gotta love to hate them, huh? :p

Er, yes, actually it does. The Allies crushed Hitler and Tojo. They did it through the application of violence. Whether or not WWII was "completely avoidable" or not is unanswerable and irrelevant. They started it. We finished it. In this case, bloodshed was highly efficacious.

LG, you don't really intend that statement to be taken seriously, do you? :confused:

Whether WWII was completely avoidable IS both answerable and relevant. It was avoidable. That makes it relevant.

The conflict between Israel and the Middle East was avoidable. That makes it relevant. Violent conflict on the scale going on between Israelis and Palestinians is avoidable. That makes it relevant. The people in control on both sides have no vested interest in avoiding bloodshed. The public does, but fear and rage are still the currency of the realm. Ah, well. Maybe you'll learn while there's still life left in that blood-drenched crust of dirt. Hope springs eternal.

Whether WWII was completely avoidable IS both answerable and relevant. It was avoidable. That makes it relevant.It was avoidable, certainly. But, the real question IMO is, why was so little done to avoid it?

It was avoidable, certainly. But, the real question IMO, why was so little done to avoid it?

Mostly due to isolationist tendencies after WWI.

Mostly due to isolationist tendencies after WWI.On the part of the US, or the world in general?

On the part of the US, or the world in general?

Most of the western nations had retreated into their shells. The warning signs were there, however. Germany was in even deeper financial than the rest of Europe and Japan's expansionist tendencies didn't form overnight.

I think the ostrich with it's head furthest in the sand was probably Russia. Little surprise there, however.

If you are Jewish, be VERY careful saying this. God has a special covenant with your people, and does not suffer ingratitude lightly. God has said that Israel IS for the Jews, and if they bargain it away, they will suffer the same fate as Esau who did not love his birthright.

That's what God is, you know. A very angry, inflexible zoning board.

Is that why Homeowners' Associations call their binding agreements "covenants"?

Seeing as the whole 'kill loads and they'll lie down' thing hasn't worked for the 50 years they've been doing it, you'd think they'd try a different tack.
It's working fine for them. Their casualty rates are way down from the 60's.
No prizes for guessing what they'll do in response.
Hamas won't do jackshit, because they can't. They won't launch a "shed-load of rockets" (as one poster suggested) because their supply of rockets and of the engineers who know how to put them together has just been massively cut down. Nor will they send suicide bombers (as another suggested) because the barriers are very effective. They will, however, launch a lot of propaganda about how nasty the Israelis are. Deserved? It is certainly true that Israel's military sees their mission SOLELY as minimizing Israeli casualties, without any regard to how many non-Israeli casualties are inflicted in the course of that.

When do we stop the apparently futile attempts to get insane people to stop killing one another? It seems like the peace talks are just a lull in the fighting so each side can re-arm and regroup.

New peace proposal: Steel cage death match tournament between Hamas and the militant Israelis. Last man standing takes all. :p

Thanks, your generation screws it all up and we are expected to clean up?

Exactly! My generation made Love not War. We just fought for peace and freedom! Now you guys have to do that and save the planet! :D

Is that why Homeowners' Associations call their binding agreements "covenants"?

Your comparison is anti-christian and poorly thought out.

HOA's are controlling, authoritarian entities excercising broad powers to govern the way people keep their homes and lives, subject to arcane writings, ruled generally by elderly self-righteous men.

That's nothing like religion.

I'm guessing Hamas is going to dump a ton of rockets and mortars on Israel and then the Israel will airstrike the hell out of Gaza.....................it'll continue until a "truce". :(

Why is Israel in the middle east? :eek:

Dear Baldwin for Christ:
Here's Bob Dylan (Early Bob) doing "With God on our side:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7LMTXD8J4aI

Let's not confuse peace in the Middle East with Chosen people nonsense

Dear Baldwin for Christ:
Here's Bob Dylan (Early Bob) doing "With God on our side:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7LMTXD8J4aI

Let's not confuse peace in the Middle East with Chosen people nonsense

Dylan? Is he that guy from the Travelling Wilburys?

Peace in the Middle East will only be achieved by acknowledging the Jews as the Chosen People, because then Jesus can convert them all, and make them perfect, like Christians. Its true, I read it on a pamphlet at a Kirk Cameron Keep a Hymen For Christ youth abstinence rally.

Why is Israel in the middle east? :eek:Judaism. Zionism. Racism.

When do we stop the apparently futile attempts to get insane people to stop killing one another? It seems like the peace talks are just a lull in the fighting so each side can re-arm and regroup.

New peace proposal: Steel cage death match tournament between Hamas and the militant Israelis. Last man standing takes all. :p

Taken from "All quiet on the western front"
Although their idea was to stick the world leaders in a field with some clubs and let them beat each other to death.

But the question is as always... what would you do as leader when your neighbour is lobbing upto 60 missiles a day over the border?
The only thing that stops hamas killing more civilians than the Israelies is that the Israeli missiles have a better guidance system.
Neither side really gives a damn about the other, the object is to carry on the war for as long as possible as thats the only way you can hang onto power.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAA.http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4BA1C820081211
Welcome to reality, kid.

Thats actually a clever move. It offers them security while reigning them in.

The Isrealis have one doctrine. Strike first.

I'm guessing Hamas is going to dump a ton of rockets and mortars on Israel and then the Israel will airstrike the hell out of Gaza.....................it'll continue until a "truce". :(
Islamic Jihad is going to be involved as much as Hamas, I reckon.
Why is Israel in the middle east? :eek:
It isn't, it's in the Levant.

I surely hope so because, as things stand, the entirety of the US army and allied forces won't be able to put a stop to the fighting. In the end, the peace promise lies in the hands of Israeli and Palestinian leaders.
Neither the Israeli leaders nor Hamas have anything to gain by ending this war, so it's not going to happen. The Israelis get sympathy and money for getting attacked, and Hamas get funded by dickhead Saudis. Abbas' government in the West Bank would be better off without this war, but they're the only involved people in the region for whom this is the case.

And I suppose you find that injuring/killing/rendering homeless the many Palestinians whose only real crime happen to be standing in the same vicinity or family as the guerillas are acceptable responses?
Well it sucks, but war sucks. Those people in Occupied Europe were mostly innocent but they died in the bombing raids as well. Allied POWs ended dying in bombing raids.

War sucks.

What the civilians SHOULD do is tie up said millitants and dump them on the border wall.

But they won't because either:

A: They fear them more than they fear Israeli weapons.
B: They are looking the other way.
C: Too young.
D: Could care less how many OTHER people die as long as they're "Sticking it to the Zionists"
E: Seriously believe that they will somehow conquer Israel someday.

I mean I doubt that they can launch all those rockets without at least ONE bystander seeing them getting ready.

Judaism. Zionism. Racism.

Racism? Arabs and Jews are both caucasians, so I'm afraid you're technically wrong.

Racism? Arabs and Jews are both caucasians, so I'm afraid you're technically wrong.
You mean Semitic?

Exactly. They kill 1 or 2 people, Israel kills 20-50 (conservatively).

Comparing the body count is rarely a good test of proportionality and justification since it's easily distorted by various factors. For example, the Israeli bodycount is artificially low because of their exceptional emergency health service: the number of dead Israelis in the Israel-Hezbollah conflict was far lower than the number of dead Lebanese, but the number of people injured on each side (including fatalities) was about even. It doesn't mean anything.

I'm not defending the latest attack, merely trying to show why it's misleading to portray the Palestinian rockets as essentially harmless because they rarely actually kill anyone.

You mean Semitic?

The semitic people are counted as part of the Caucasian racial group by those that care about such things.

There are a number of ways to keep "kids" from "getting killed." One of them would be for Ham-ass not to hide among the civilian population.
But that's not going to happen, because Ham-ass wants "kids" to get killed as a consequence of their attacks on Israel so that they can use the casualties to divert attention from their attacks and stir up other Arabs.

Normally true, but on this occaison Israel targeted police stations which by their nature have to be in civilian areas, no? They also attacked at a time when there were a lot of civilians, including children, on the streets.

Even though the whole concept of the Caucasian race is an outdated one, Semites are members of the Caucasian race.

Even though the whole concept of the Caucasian race is an outdated one, Semites are members of the Caucasian race.
Fair enough.

Showing my ignorance there :p

I've seen worse cases of ignorance on this forum, so don't feel bad about it.

Exactly this! +1 point to LG.

The Palestinians are a conquered people who are systematically being genocided against.

Given that the Palestinian population is growing it has to be the most incompetent genocide in history. This kind of ridiculous hyperbole is one of the reasons why Israel/Palestine discussions frequently become so polarised.

I fuckin' hate it when Imaginary Friends cause so many deaths: Just because one Imaginary Friend said to Jews that Israel is their promised land doesn't mean people worshiping other Imaginary Friends will accept it or even that they should accept it.

The worst part is that every palestinian Israel kills breeds 10 terrorists more further destabilizing the region and hurting the global security, but because Imaginary Friends are involved the killing, and thus breeding, is allowed to continue without intervention: Wagging a finger doesn't really cut it when the other side is killing hundreds of human beings a day 'coz their Imaginary Friend said so millennia ago :rolleyes:

The fact of the matter is that Israel can't win on rockets, the only violent and oppressive solution that has a chance of working is complete genocide...of either party. By the looks (http://news.google.com/news?q=israel+protest&btnG=Search) of it, this has a good chance of happening in near future.

On the other hand, both sides of the conflict - Israel & USA vs Palestinians & Arabs - could stop waving their Imaginary Friend's dick and act like civilized people should act, but that has next to nil chance of happening...Well...Hmm...Perhaps we should try to convince the Israelites that the real promised land is Utah, not Israel :p

Well, on the bright side at least the media have something to write about other than pointless celebrities...

Racism? Arabs and Jews are both caucasians, so I'm afraid you're technically wrong.Arabs are Semites. Jews are a mixture of (Indo-)Europeans and a few Semites from way back.
Jews however view themselves as a "people" distinct from the rest of humanity. And their stance on other "peoples" is one of contempt. You know, "ethnocentric" (which Judaism is) is just a euphemism for "racist".

Even though the whole concept of the Caucasian race is an outdated one, Semites are members of the Caucasian race.Um no they are not. The right term for "Caucasian" (do only Americans use that??) is Indo-European, which is quite distinct from Semitic. Although both language families indeed originated in the Caucasus region.

HappyLaesbo, I don't think that you should be overgeneralising about Jews. I know where you are going with the "Chosen people" stuff but remember that not all Jews see themselves as superior. Also, people can and do convert to Judaism. My mother did.

Also, Judaism is an ideology NOT a race.
It would be far better to restrict discussion of the Middle East conflict to issues of justice, peace and human rights. Bringing in red herrings just makes it a whole lot dirtier and you can lay yourself open to charges of racism yourself.

I just saw an earlier post you did HappyLesbo.
The "slimy yedhudim" sounds like neo-nazi trolling to me!

Seeing as the whole 'kill loads and they'll lie down' thing hasn't worked for the 50 years they've been doing it, you'd think they'd try a different tack.

This.

I'm not sure what the rest of the thread is about after this encapsulation of the truth, but I'm not sure I want to know, either.

Jews however view themselves as a "people" distinct from the rest of humanity.

Been reading "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", I see.

HappyLaesbo, I don't think that you should be overgeneralising about Jews. I know where you are going with the "Chosen people" stuff but remember that not all Jews see themselves as superior. Also, people can and do convert to Judaism. My mother did.

Also, Judaism is an ideology NOT a race.
It would be far better to restrict discussion of the Middle East conflict to issues of justice, peace and human rights. Bringing in red herrings just makes it a whole lot dirtier and you can lay yourself open to charges of racism yourself.Well, views on justice, peace and human rights depend on ideology. Judaism is one very bad ideology, and it inherently includes a claim of superiority because of the alleged proximity to their "god". Given the nature of that god, an adherent can definitely not be a moral person.
The fact that Israel exists today, created with violence, is the result of Jewish ideology and its inability to accept other perceptions of god or life.
According to Judaism itself, it constitutes a race, or at least a "people". Racism also includes hatred of other peoples. Btw Zionism is racism, which makes Israel a racist state or one based on racism.

Been reading "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", I see.The what?
I have been reading the Bible. Is that the same?

Wiki it, my dear lesbian friend.

Wiki it, my dear lesbian friend.Now that is complete bs.

But it is funny that you seem to think that the inherent teachings of Judaism would need an external amplifier. Maybe you should read the Bible again, then you would need no russian pamphlet to think that Judaism is a racist and demented ideology.

Your comparison is anti-christian and poorly thought out.

HOA's are controlling, authoritarian entities excercising broad powers to govern the way people keep their homes and lives, subject to arcane writings, ruled generally by elderly self-righteous men.

That's nothing like religion.

Oh isn't it? Really? Then how do you explain the President of my HOA walking across his swimming pool to serve hors d'oeuvres at the last meeting?

Dear Baldwin for Christ:
Here's Bob Dylan (Early Bob) doing "With God on our side:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7LMTXD8J4aI

Let's not confuse peace in the Middle East with Chosen people nonsense

Why not?

Now that is complete bs.

But it is funny that you seem to think that the inherent teachings of Judaism would need an external amplifier. Maybe you should read the Bible again, then you would need no russian pamphlet to think that Judaism is a racist and demented ideology.
You do really seem to like trolling, don't you?

You do really seem to like trolling, don't you?How is that trolling? It is not my fault that Judaism is so, um, restrictive.

How is that trolling? It is not my fault that Judaism is so, um, restrictive.
Claiming it is racist and demented could well be construed as offensive by quite a few people. You could always tone down your language and make it somewhat less confrontational without changing your argument.

Maybe you should read the Bible again, then you would need no russian pamphlet to think that Judaism is a racist and demented ideology.

Ideology? I'd call it a religion. But perhaps you don't want to sound like a religist?

I wonder if the title was in reference to the events in the Near East or what would happen in NSG when the news was broken here?

I was under the impression that in recent months things had cooled off slightly, Or has it just been out of the news for a while?

Claiming it is racist and demented could well be construed as offensive by quite a few people. You could always tone down your language and make it somewhat less confrontational without changing your argument.
Well, racist best describes it. Demented could indeed be replaced by a euphemism, like "suitable for people with an obscure perception of the world". ;)

Ideology? I'd call it a religion. But perhaps you don't want to sound like a religist?Religion IS ideology, especially when it determines how things should be done.

I was under the impression that in recent months things had cooled off slightly, Or has it just been out of the news for a while?Isn't there an election coming up in Israel?

I was under the impression that in recent months things had cooled off slightly, Or has it just been out of the news for a while?
It kicked up again a couple of days ago. Check out BBC news at some point today. It'll be all over it.

Isn't there an election coming up in Israel?

Well then, that's our reason.

I was under the impression that in recent months things had cooled off slightly, Or has it just been out of the news for a while?

There's been a six-month long ceasefire that by and large has held (disregarding a few missiles and an Israeli military raid onto the Gaza strip, among other things). It expired recently and Hamas expressed that they had no interest in replacing it with a new one. Rockets started being fired at Israel at the same level as before the ceasefire, and Israel stuck back. Hard.

I'm sure that the elections coming up in both Israel and Palestine (at least, they're supposed to be held in Palestine as well) is an important factor as well.

More and more i keep running into the whole...

"Meh, its what they do" thing, lol....Let em do it, Israel, Palestine, Bosnia, Georgia....the whole bit they obviously wanna shoot each other, let em get it out of their systems....

Well it sucks, but war sucks. Those people in Occupied Europe were mostly innocent but they died in the bombing raids as well. Allied POWs ended dying in bombing raids.

War sucks.

What the civilians SHOULD do is tie up said millitants and dump them on the border wall.

But they won't because either:

A: They fear them more than they fear Israeli weapons.
B: They are looking the other way.
C: Too young.
D: Could care less how many OTHER people die as long as they're "Sticking it to the Zionists"
E: Seriously believe that they will somehow conquer Israel someday.

I mean I doubt that they can launch all those rockets without at least ONE bystander seeing them getting ready.


And the win goes to... THE LONE ALLIANCE by a landslide!
You nailed it bro.


Luckily, the disporportional responses that Israel has offered during the last decade have successfully deterred the Palestinians from even thinking of shooting a single missile into Israel.

(Maybe you think a more disproportional response will lead to a different result? It might. Some nasty side effects will occur though...)

Close - if you consider the complete and utter defeat of their enemy disproportionate... it beats perpetual warfare...

Unfortunately, wiping your enemy off the map is no longer an option in the civilised world.

And its thinking like that which leads to genocide, and extermination of entire populations. Keep up the good work!

Yes, I dearly miss the Japanese people. They must fake Iron Chef just like they faked the lunar landing... :rolleyes:


The important difference here is, when the U.S. occupied Japan they went through all the trouble to help the Japanese become self-sufficient and then pulled out once it was all said and done. The only thing Israel's helped the Palestinians with in their occupation is unifying populace resentment and driving up recruitment for guerilla and terrorist groups.

And helped themselves to more land, don't forget.

Stick with the point - I'm pretty sure the US didn't occupy Japan until AFTER they were defeated. Israel has never been allowed to render their opponent as defeated as the Japanese were - Hamas and Hezbollah have yet to surrender... Until they do Israel has no more reason to 'return' land to their enemy than the US had to return Iwo Jima before Japan's surrender.

I fuckin' hate it when Imaginary Friends cause so many deaths: Just because one Imaginary Friend said to Jews that Israel is their promised land doesn't mean people worshiping other Imaginary Friends will accept it or even that they should accept it.
This isn't really about religion, it's more about owning the decent scraps of land. Religion is just brought in to popularise it.

Close - if you consider the complete and utter defeat of their enemy disproportionate... it beats perpetual warfare...

So would you advocate a bloody massacre of the civilian population, men, women and children alike? Killing off about a million people to passify the remaining population?

Whenever Israelis and Palestinians beat each other up, they hurt themselves and cause a massive world reaction against them. One by product is that all the little critters that normally hide under rocks like "HappyLesbo" (whom I suspect of being neither happy nor a "Lesbo") start spreading race hate.

"Why must the nations so furiously rage together?"

Arabs are Semites. Jews are a mixture of (Indo-)Europeans and a few Semites from way back.
Jews however view themselves as a "people" distinct from the rest of humanity. And their stance on other "peoples" is one of contempt. You know, "ethnocentric" (which Judaism is) is just a euphemism for "racist".

Um no they are not. The right term for "Caucasian" (do only Americans use that??) is Indo-European, which is quite distinct from Semitic. Although both language families indeed originated in the Caucasus region.

Err, no. Indo-european is a language family, while Caucasian is a racial grouping. One is not a 'right term' for the other.

Until they do Israel has no more reason to 'return' land to their enemy than the US had to return Iwo Jima before Japan's surrender.


As was pointed out earlier, the two are not comparable. The US was not planning on colonising japan.

As was pointed out earlier, the two are not comparable. The US was not planning on colonising japan.

Yet...Strangely...Somehow we succeeded in doing so, lmao :tongue:

Israel has no more reason to 'return' land to their enemy

Well...yeh. If you care to ignore international law which says war for territorial aggrandizement is illegal. But don't let facts get in the way of your opinion - carry on.

Well...yeh. If you care to ignore international law which says war for territorial aggrandizement is illegal. But don't let facts get in the way of your opinion - carry on.

If your more than willing to just arbitrarily shoot missiles in someone else's territory and kill shit...

might as well, lol...

*remembers an old song*

Father Abraham had many sons,
Many sons had Father Abraham.
all of them want to kill one another,
And nothing we can do will stop it.

OK, those last 2 lines might not be quite right...

Yet...Strangely...Somehow we succeeded in doing so, lmao :tongue:

Yet its ye that are glued to watching the Anime on a Sony HD screen....

Yet its ye that are glued to watching the Anime on a Sony HD screen....

I want a HD-telly. :(

Yet its ye that are glued to watching the Anime on a Sony HD screen....

Meh, Its like Tea in England...Just cause Japan Grows it doesnt mean its not ours, lol...

EDIT: Btw, I have a Sharp HD thank you very much, lol

This isn't really about religion, it's more about owning the decent scraps of land. Religion is just brought in to popularise it.But the claims of ownership are derived from religion, especially on the Jewish side with their promised-land-thing and all.

But the claims of ownership are derived from religion, especially on the Jewish side with their promised-land-thing and all.

On the Jewish Side yes...but the Palestinians are mostly after land....Although their supporters are generally doing so because of Religion...as well as their Detracters I suppose...

Religion is teh stoopid, lol....

Err, no. Indo-european is a language family, while Caucasian is a racial grouping. One is not a 'right term' for the other.Racial groupings are determined by language (and therefore culture etc), at least in context of ancient history.

On the Jewish Side yes...but the Palestinians are mostly after land....Although their supporters are generally doing so because of Religion...as well as their Detracters I suppose...

Religion is teh stoopid, lol....?? The Palestinians were there before the Jews created Israel. Why would they have been after land?

?? The Palestinians were there before the Jews created Israel. Why would they have been after land?

No no no....Theyre after land now, cause theirs were taken...

One by product is that all the little critters that normally hide under rocks like "HappyLesbo" (whom I suspect of being neither happy nor a "Lesbo") start spreading race hate.

You might have a point there. Still I'm somewhat surprised that a Stormfront infiltrator (assuming the most pathetic scenario) would go so far as to adorn himself with the name "HappyLesbo". For some odd reason that reminds me of Monthy Python's Flying Circus...

You might have a point there. Still I'm somewhat surprised that a Stormfront infiltrator (assuming the most pathetic scenario) would go so far as to adorn himself with the name "HappyLesbo". For some odd reason that reminds me of Monthy Python's Flying Circus...What the holy shit are you talking about? Does one have to be a Nazi to think there is something utterly wrong with Judaism and its followers?? I wonder what you would have called me 100 years ago. How is a Nazi the natural opposite of a Jew? I mean, just reading the Bible makes it clear how filled with hatred that religion is.

What the holy shit are you talking about? Does one have to be a Nazi to think there is something utterly wrong with Judaism and its followers??

You think that being a Jew is intrinsically wrong?

How is a Nazi the natural opposite of a Jew?

The natural opposite of the Jew is the warranty card for an Ikea computer desk.

You think that being a Jew is intrinsically wrong?

Maybe he hates Jews in some non-Nazi way, like a French sex shop owner whose parents were tortured by Nazi's, but whose distributor is a price-fixing Jew.

The natural opposite of the Jew is the warranty card for an Ikea computer desk.

Then if one touches the other, they will annihilate eachother. This would explain much. *nod*

Maybe he hates Jews in some non-Nazi way, like a French sex shop owner whose parents were tortured by Nazi's, but whose distributor is a price-fixing Jew.

Either that, or he's some strange kind of self hating Jew, or a troll, or neither.

Then if one touches the other, they will annihilate eachother. This would explain much. *nod*

What separates you from other mere clowns is the ability to extrapolate absurdity into something that makes sense and vice versa.

?? The Palestinians were there before the Jews created Israel. Why would they have been after land?

The fuck? The jews have been on that land before there was an islamic religion, before there was a "palestine"

EDIT: Btw, I have a Sharp HD thank you very much, lol

or シャープ株式会社 as its known in its home country of Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Corporation



I want a HD-telly

Steal one off an Arab then suck up to a superpower. Works all the time.

Then if one touches the other, they will annihilate eachother. This would explain much. *nod*

we'll never know. You think we stoop so low as to actually own that Swedish crap?

The fuck? The jews have been on that land before there was an islamic religion, before there was a "palestine"but only in small numbers. and the other people were also there before converting to christianity and later to islam. it is a common misconception that all inhabitants of what is now israel/palestine were in the majority adherents of judaism in persian, greek, and roman times.

The fuck? The jews have been on that land before there was an islamic religion, before there was a "palestine"

Wow. They are older than they look.

Because there are actual living palestinians who have actually been displaced into refugee camps by the creation of Israel. Them, their children and their grandchildren seem to still be a bit miffed by that. I wonder how most of us would feel.

Probably similar to some of the now living Israelis who were taken from their homes by genocidal maniacs, survived hell then were refused their homes back in Europe and sent to stay in detainment camps on Malta until given the 'privilege' of being moved somewhere out of sight and out of mind of people who didn't want constant reminders of the price of their own racism. Oh, let's not forget to mention that the land they were given actually belonged to someone else who now hates their guts.

I never understood why Israel didn't bomb Europe instead. :tongue:

You think that being a Jew is intrinsically wrong?It's a choice of ideology I cannot approve of. Same goes for Evangelicals.