NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I have a question for parents on NSG, when you and your kids discussed Santa Claus, how did you go about it? Did you teach that he was a real person, but he's dead, or did you let your kid have fun and believe in the Santa Claus that we all know and love today?

I asked because I have an aunt and uncle who taught their son that Saint Nick was a real person who gave gift, but he died and is no longer around, thus sucking all the fun and magic out of this holiday season for the kid. Apparently they didn't want him to miss the real reason for the season. When I heard this, I had to bite my tongue or else I would've gone off in a rant about the real reason for the season.

I know that they can do whatever they want to, but at the same time, you gotta let your kid have some fun in his life, and part of that fun is believing that a fat bastard can deliver millions of present in one night without burning up in the atmosphere or being shot down for not checking in with Homeland Security.

Thoughts?

I have already, in another thread, expressed my opinion on the intellectual capabilities of your relatives in question, and I stand by that statement.

So, I have a question for parents on NSG, when you and your kids discussed Santa Claus, how did you go about it? Did you teach that he was a real person, but he's dead, or did you let your kid have fun and believe in the Santa Claus that we all know and love today?

I asked because I have an aunt and uncle who taught their son that Saint Nick was a real person who gave gift, but he died and is no longer around, thus sucking all the fun and magic out of this holiday season for the kid. Apparently they didn't want him to miss the real reason for the season. When I heard this, I had to bite my tongue or else I would've gone off in a rant about the real reason for the season.

I know that they can do whatever they want to, but at the same time, you gotta let your kid have some fun in his life, and part of that fun is believing that a fat bastard can deliver millions of present in one night without burning up in the atmosphere or being shot down for not checking in with Homeland Security.

Thoughts?

If it's wrong to laugh at that, I don't want to be right.:D

I have already, in another thread, expressed my opinion on the intellectual capabilities of your relatives in question, and I stand by that statement.

Yea, I know, I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I made this one.

Also, for those who are interested.

http://www.noradsanta.org/

Your tax dollars at work ladies and gentlemen. :p

i am raising mine buddhist. So no need to bring up Christmas let alone Xmas.

You'd better not cry, You'd better not shout,
You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why -

Santa Claus is dead.

Best. holiday. song. ever.

Yea, I know, I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I made this one.

Also, for those who are interested.

http://www.noradsanta.org/

Your tax dollars at work ladies and gentlemen. :p
Oh for pete's sake, how much do you think it costs? Answer: absolutely NO tax dollars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAD_Tracks_Santa

NORAD has more of a sense of the wonder and magic of childhood than your relatives, Wilgrove. Can you comprehend how fucking sad that is? Seriously, if I were you, I'd make a habit of hinting to that child that his parents are idiots and he should rely on his own judgment for most things.

Given that my son is one, he isn't asking any questions right now. :P. He is going to be getting presents from Santa this year of course. But, I am afraid that he's going to be rather confused growing up given that I play Santa a lot in Japan and I have the suit. He's seen both the suit and me IN the suit so currently he has over-generalized and thinks that EVERY guy in a Santa suit has to be Daddy. I made sure to get him The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus this year for Christmas so when he starts to ask questions I can just read him that and hopefully get him working on thinking that Santa isn't Daddy, but someone else and Daddy is just a Santa Helper.

I never set out anything about Santa. I didn't mention him at all in regards to the holiday season, they got enough propaganda from grandparents and T.V. and such......so one day when my oldest was about 3 she asked me if Santa was real and I told her he was made up....just like Elmo. I told her that some people think there was a real Santa but he's long dead and people like to pretend that Santa is real at Christmas.

My youngest asked in earnest last year if Santa was real or made up and I told her the truth again. When she asked why other parents lie to their children I told her it's because it makes the parents feel good about themselves and also so they can guilt their children into behaving.

They both "play" the Santa thing around this time of year in a *wink wink* kind of way. They'll ask me to "forward this email" to Santa and then write at the bottom (we mean Daddy).

They don't "out" the truth to other kids, but will not play along with adults.

We did the same thing with all the other pretend characters from childhood. Daddy is the tooth fairy, I am the Easter bunny, and so on.

The "tooth fairy" leaves money under their pillows, but if he forgets they know to remind my husband.

The "Easter bunny" brings them candy, they make sure I know what kind they like.

Given that my son is one, he isn't asking any questions right now. :P. He is going to be getting presents from Santa this year of course. But, I am afraid that he's going to be rather confused growing up given that I play Santa a lot in Japan and I have the suit. He's seen both the suit and me IN the suit so currently he has over-generalized and thinks that EVERY guy in a Santa suit has to be Daddy. I made sure to get him The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus this year for Christmas so when he starts to ask questions I can just read him that and hopefully get him working on thinking that Santa isn't Daddy, but someone else and Daddy is just a Santa Helper.

Not that I agree with playing up a lie, but you might be able to explain it to him like when he "dresses up" like Spider man or something on halloween, he's not really Spider man, just pretending. Just like you pretend to be Santa.

It was never an issue in my family. My kids figured out early on who Santa really was and spent a lot of time pretending to believe so they wouldn't disappoint the rest of the family.

So, I have a question for parents on NSG, when you and your kids discussed Santa Claus, how did you go about it? Did you teach that he was a real person, but he's dead, or did you let your kid have fun and believe in the Santa Claus that we all know and love today?
The modern incarnation of Santa Clause in popular culture has (at most) as much to do with a dead Dutchman as the historical Ed Gein has to do with Leatherface.
People who go looking for historical origins are pointlessly masturbating their intellect and ignoring the value of a good, contemporary lie.
Apparently they didn't want him to miss the real reason for the season.
Somehow, I think that your relatives have lost the meaning of the season, which is: "To have a damned good time in spite of your relatives."
Sometimes, the key to having a good time is getting really drunk, but that isn't legal for the under 21's, so we have Santa. We also have underage drinking, but it is hard to write heartwarming poems about that, especially if you're an anonymous early 20th century poet.

I think it's really stupid to go out of your way to mention the historical figure that was supposed to be based on Santa to kids. If you don't want them to believe in fairy tales and magic, why not just not mention it at all? There's tons of things that are far more important if all you want to do with your kids is instill the "true meaning" of Xmas, or whatever. Santa isn't relevant today for historical meaning, it's just a magical tale that kids tend to like.

We also have underage drinking, but it is hard to write heartwarming poems about that, especially if you're an anonymous early 20th century poet.
Ahem. Since we know it's Clement Moore, he's hardly "anonymous", and since it was written in 1860 or thereabouts, it's a 19th century poem.

I don't have kids (thankfully) yet. I do hope to have them some day though, on the issue of Santa Clause and etc. I am still not sure how to do it, on one hand I don't want to lie to my future children and on the other I don't want to destroy their imagination.

I will probably explain to them that Santa Clause is imaginary and part of the whole Christmas experience, he is a symbol of why people should be nice to each other and all that other stuff...

So, I have a question for parents on NSG, when you and your kids discussed Santa Claus, how did you go about it? Did you teach that he was a real person, but he's dead, or did you let your kid have fun and believe in the Santa Claus that we all know and love today?

I asked because I have an aunt and uncle who taught their son that Saint Nick was a real person who gave gift, but he died and is no longer around, thus sucking all the fun and magic out of this holiday season for the kid. Apparently they didn't want him to miss the real reason for the season. When I heard this, I had to bite my tongue or else I would've gone off in a rant about the real reason for the season.

I know that they can do whatever they want to, but at the same time, you gotta let your kid have some fun in his life, and part of that fun is believing that a fat bastard can deliver millions of present in one night without burning up in the atmosphere or being shot down for not checking in with Homeland Security.

Thoughts?

Just a question Wilgrove. Do you mean that the parents told their kid about the Bishop?

I believe that the fat bastard does it in 24 hours. Remember Wilgrove it isn't night everywhere in the world at the same time and not to mention the various areas in the world that don't have Christmas or Santa Claus so he can skip that bit. :)

I never set out anything about Santa. I didn't mention him at all in regards to the holiday season, they got enough propaganda from grandparents and T.V. and such......so one day when my oldest was about 3 she asked me if Santa was real and I told her he was made up....just like Elmo. I told her that some people think there was a real Santa but he's long dead and people like to pretend that Santa is real at Christmas.

My youngest asked in earnest last year if Santa was real or made up and I told her the truth again. When she asked why other parents lie to their children I told her it's because it makes the parents feel good about themselves and also so they can guilt their children into behaving.

They both "play" the Santa thing around this time of year in a *wink wink* kind of way. They'll ask me to "forward this email" to Santa and then write at the bottom (we mean Daddy).

They don't "out" the truth to other kids, but will not play along with adults.

We did the same thing with all the other pretend characters from childhood. Daddy is the tooth fairy, I am the Easter bunny, and so on.

The "tooth fairy" leaves money under their pillows, but if he forgets they know to remind my husband.

The "Easter bunny" brings them candy, they make sure I know what kind they like.
Your children must be insufferable for other adults to be around. Of course, I loathe children in general, but I especially loathe children who think they have inside adult knowledge about things. They always presume to correct adults they don't know about off-hand remarks, and their parents smile at you like you're supposed to be impressed at how clever they are.

You may tell kids the truth about Santa. I'm usually the one who tells them that it is not their place to correct their elders.

But then, as I said, I don't like kids. Somehow, though, I still don't see that it's a problem for them to enjoy a little fantasy once a year.

I don't have kids (thankfully) yet. I do hope to have them some day though, on the issue of Santa Clause and etc. I am still not sure how to do it, on one hand I don't want to lie to my future children and on the other I don't want to destroy their imagination.

I will probably explain to them that Santa Clause is imaginary and part of the whole Christmas experience, he is a symbol of why people should be nice to each other and all that other stuff...
Tim Allen is imaginary? ;)

Oh for pete's sake, how much do you think it costs? Answer: absolutely NO tax dollars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAD_Tracks_Santa

I was joking Kat...joking.

In the words of The Joker "Why so serious?"

Your children must be insufferable for other adults to be around. Of course, I loathe children in general, but I especially loathe children who think they have inside adult knowledge about things. They always presume to correct adults they don't know about off-hand remarks, and their parents smile at you like you're supposed to be impressed at how clever they are.

You may tell kids the truth about Santa. I'm usually the one who tells them that it is not their place to correct their elders.

But then, as I said, I don't like kids. Somehow, though, I still don't see that it's a problem for them to enjoy a little fantasy once a year.

Well, I'm glad that you don't have to be around my kids then.

Tim Allen is imaginary? ;)

Sometimes I wish he was. :)

I don't have kids (thankfully) yet. I do hope to have them some day though, on the issue of Santa Clause and etc. I am still not sure how to do it, on one hand I don't want to lie to my future children and on the other I don't want to destroy their imagination.

I will probably explain to them that Santa Clause is imaginary and part of the whole Christmas experience, he is a symbol of why people should be nice to each other and all that other stuff...
Yeah, this. Santa Claus as the spirit or symbol of the goodwill behind giftgiving. A mythical role model. When I was very, very little, I assume, I probably believed in Santa -- though I don't actually remember if I did -- because my family were totally into the whole theater of it -- the rush to get the kid into bed before Santa came, putting out milk and cookies, claiming that the cat tracks in the snow in the morning were reindeer tracks. But of course, I had actually been at the stores with my folks for Christmas shopping and had sat up later than usual helping to giftwrap on Christmas Eve night, so I knew for a fact who made all those packages appear under the tree. Santa was something else -- not a literal magic elf delivering presents, but rather something having to do with the feeling of the holiday.

Call me an ass but my kids never believed in Santa Clause as a fantasy fat man that came down the chimney to bring gifts. I did however tell them it is a fairytale based on a real character.

Well, I'm glad that you don't have to be around my kids then.
Me too. :tongue:

Hmm from what I understand the Historial St Nicholas lived in what is now Turkey but was then part of the Eastern Roman Empire and was known for his generosity to the poor but has little to do with Santa Claus as we know him today other than Santa Claus is an corruption of either an dutch or german name for the sant.

first of all you cant contradict your aunt and uncle's story about santa. whatever they have said about the story is what you have to go with unless there are other children around who have a different story.

children want to believe in santa. it is the parents responsibility to decide just what the santa story IS. you dont have to go with whatever stupid thing is put into whatever stupid holiday tv special or christmas song claims. as in: just because a song says that santa sees your every move (he sees you when youre sleeping, he knows when youre awake) doesnt mean that you have to tell your child this horrifying story. the details are up to you.

with my son we had santa when he was little. the rule for presents at christmas was that he could not ask me for any particular toy and he would never get any toy that was advertised on the tv. but he could pick one toy (advertised or not) to ask santa for and santa would bring that toy.

when asked about santa i said that everyone believes in santa at christmas and that people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa. that seemed to take care of the issue of the existence of santa pretty well.

Your children must be insufferable for other adults to be around. Of course, I loathe children in general, but I especially loathe children who think they have inside adult knowledge about things. They always presume to correct adults they don't know about off-hand remarks, and their parents smile at you like you're supposed to be impressed at how clever they are.

You may tell kids the truth about Santa. I'm usually the one who tells them that it is not their place to correct their elders.

But then, as I said, I don't like kids. Somehow, though, I still don't see that it's a problem for them to enjoy a little fantasy once a year.I was an insufferable brat when I was younger. You would have hated me. (Though, I'm probably still an insufferable brat. :p)

Me too. :tongue:

It's not so much that they "correct" the adults, but if an adult asks them if they're "ready" for Santa, they'll say "I know about that" and then if the adult pushes about how Santa is real and they just talked to him on the phone.....they kinda nod and smile.

first of all you cant contradict your aunt and uncle's story about santa. whatever they have said about the story is what you have to go with unless there are other children around who have a different story.

children want to believe in santa. it is the parents responsibility to decide just what the santa story IS. you dont have to go with whatever stupid thing is put into whatever stupid holiday tv special or christmas song claims. as in: just because a song says that santa sees your every move (he sees you when youre sleeping, he knows when youre awake) doesnt mean that you have to tell your child this horrifying story. the details are up to you.

with my son we had santa when he was little. the rule for presents at christmas was that he could not ask me for any particular toy and he would never get any toy that was advertised on the tv. but he could pick one toy (advertised or not) to ask santa for and santa would bring that toy.

when asked about santa i said that everyone believes in santa at christmas and that people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa. that seemed to take care of the issue of the existence of santa pretty well.
So... Santa was an employee of Mattel Inc.?

Not that I agree with playing up a lie, but you might be able to explain it to him like when he "dresses up" like Spider man or something on halloween, he's not really Spider man, just pretending. Just like you pretend to be Santa.
It's an idea.

And I don't think Santa is a lie. Santa is a persona wrapped around a concept, and not a bad one at that.

It's not so much that they "correct" the adults, but if an adult asks them if they're "ready" for Santa, they'll say "I know about that" and then if the adult pushes about how Santa is real and they just talked to him on the phone.....they kinda nod and smile.
Well, of course, I would never behave like such an idiot around a kid. But, if someone is going on and on about something they want, like a toy or a Porsche (depending on how old the person is), and I say something like, "Well, maybe Santa will get it for you someday," an adult would know I was speaking figuratively and that what I really meant was "I get it, you want it, shut up now." However, a child who "knows about Santa" is likely to inform me that there is no such person, and do so in that particular condescending tone children get when they think they know something the adult doesn't. This is because they lack the life experience to (a) recognize figurative speech and (b) know when not to speak at all.

So... Santa was an employee of Mattel Inc.?
no but he was the guy who would bring that great toy that you saw on the tv that you dont even dare ask mommy for.

i cant stand the greed thing that kids are encouraged to engaged in at christmas time where they beg for this or that toy and make up huge lists of presents that they want.

but everyone has at least ONE thing that they would really really like for christmas.

it used to bug santa when my son would get on his lap and ask for one thing and one thing only.

It's an idea.

And I don't think Santa is a lie. Santa is a persona wrapped around a concept, and not a bad one at that.

Santa is a story. Santa comes into your house on Christmas eve and gives you presents and watches you day and night and has reindeer that really did land on the roof and he really did eat those cookies you left for him.....is a lie.

I was an insufferable brat when I was younger. You would have hated me. (Though, I'm probably still an insufferable brat. :p)
I can deal with adult insufferable brats better than child ones because the adults should know better, so one can tell them just to piss off, whereas kids don't know any better so it puts one in a very awkward position.

I already know exactly how I'm going to go about teaching my kids about Santa. My father's family treated it like a tradition. His dad would dress up like Santa but they all knew it was their dad. I, however, was taught Santa was real. I found out very early (like, 5 or 6) that he was, in fact, not real.

When I have children, I will teach them firstly that it is based on a religious holiday, then teach them about the tradition of Santa. I want them to still love the idea of Santa, but I don't want them to be disappointed when they find out he's not real.

I see Christmas as a holiday season that gives you a chance to celebrate with your family and exchange gifts. I have a problem with the ever increasing materialism surrounding Christmas, but I suppose that's another issue. I think the best thing for kids is to understand that we all give each other presents to say "I love you", basically.

Well, of course, I would never behave like such an idiot around a kid. But, if someone is going on and on about something they want, like a toy or a Porsche (depending on how old the person is), and I say something like, "Well, maybe Santa will get it for you someday," an adult would know I was speaking figuratively and that what I really meant was "I get it, you want it, shut up now." However, a child who "knows about Santa" is likely to inform me of there is no such person, and do so in that particular condescending tone children get when they think they know something the adult doesn't. This is because they lack the life experience to (a) recognize figurative speech and (b) know when not to speak at all.

Nah, the "Santa might bring it" is when it's *wink wink* time. Just like when the kids are in public and they say "wow, that's a cool toy" I'll say "we'll talk to Santa about it" which is code.

It's an idea.

And I don't think Santa is a lie. Santa is a persona wrapped around a concept, and not a bad one at that.
as long as you dont lie when your son eventually asks you about whether or not santa is real its fine to have santa. i did find the "everyone believes in santa at christmas time" line effective but there is no reason not to add "but he doesnt really exist" if you dont think you son gets the point.

Santa is a stalker. He keeps constant surveillance on you and maintains detailed notes on all your activities. If he disapproves of your activities, he withholds good things. If he approves of your activities, he gives you stuff.

Stalking and bribery - I'm glad my kids never bought it.

Santa is a stalker. He keeps constant surveillance on you and maintains detailed notes on all your activities. If he disapproves of your activities, he withholds good things. If he approves of your activities, he gives you stuff.

Stalking and bribery - I'm glad my kids never bought it.
It's like God only with coal instead of hell.

This is what I am going to do with my child. (Who will only be 6 months by next christmas)

I'm going to tell him/her that santa is real, and go along with the usual tradition. Then one christmas eve when the child is around the age when most parent break the news about santa, I am going to get 4 people (friends of course). The kid will surely peek when he/she hears a noise coming from downstairs...he/she will se santa putting down presents, when suddenly *CRASH!* 3 ninjas come busting through the window and start kicking the shit out of santa. Eventually after a good struggle with many turning points, santa gets knocked unconscious and gets dragged out of the house. I will come running down with a baseball bat or something trying to get the ninjas, but of course it will be too late.


Now would that be a terrible thing to do?

Another thing is that parents tell kids there is a Easter Bunny and Toothfairy amongst others. I remember as a kid I knew my parents were Bullshitting as soon as I was able to put two thoughts together.

I think its fine if people want to tell there kids they are real. Look at it this way it teaches kids a real life lesson. Never believe in something that sounds to good to be true. Come to think of it the whole fantasy aspect of Santa and the rest is probably important in the development of a regular kid.

This is what I am going to do with my child. (Who will only be 6 months by next christmas)

I'm going to tell him/her that santa is real, and go along with the usual tradition. Then one christmas eve when the child is around the age when most parent break the news about santa, I am going to get 4 people (friends of course). The kid will surely peek when he/she hears a noise coming from downstairs...he/she will se santa putting down presents, when suddenly *CRASH!* 3 ninjas come busting through the window and start kicking the shit out of santa. Eventually after a good struggle with many turning points, santa gets knocked unconscious and gets dragged out of the house. I will come running down with a baseball bat or something trying to get the ninjas, but of course it will be too late.


Now would that be a terrible thing to do?

I think your kids would think you were cool to fight 3 ninja with a baseball bat.

Santa is a story. Santa comes into your house on Christmas eve and gives you presents and watches you day and night and has reindeer that really did land on the roof and he really did eat those cookies you left for him.....is a lie.
And a child believes with all of his or her heart to the point where it might as well be real. I've seen it, it's one of the reasons I do keep putting on the suit every year.

Besides, lies to children employed to teach complex concepts have been used since man first told stories, we're still telling them now. We even have lies to adults and we all believe them, or at least act like we believe them to the point where it makes little to no difference.

as long as you dont lie when your son eventually asks you about whether or not santa is real its fine to have santa. i did find the "everyone believes in santa at christmas time" line effective but there is no reason not to add "but he doesnt really exist" if you dont think you son gets the point.
What lie? He'll discover the more complex truth in his own time, whatever that is.

It's like God only with coal instead of hell.

I want coal, by &^%#^!!! It's %^#^@ cold here! I suppose I'd have better odds of getting the stuff if I used actual profanity, though. *#@%@# upbringing!!!

This is what I am going to do with my child. (Who will only be 6 months by next christmas)

I'm going to tell him/her that santa is real, and go along with the usual tradition. Then one christmas eve when the child is around the age when most parent break the news about santa, I am going to get 4 people (friends of course). The kid will surely peek when he/she hears a noise coming from downstairs...he/she will se santa putting down presents, when suddenly *CRASH!* 3 ninjas come busting through the window and start kicking the shit out of santa. Eventually after a good struggle with many turning points, santa gets knocked unconscious and gets dragged out of the house. I will come running down with a baseball bat or something trying to get the ninjas, but of course it will be too late.


Now would that be a terrible thing to do?

It means you won't have to get Santa presents anymore.

I can deal with adult insufferable brats better than child ones because the adults should know better, so one can tell them just to piss off, whereas kids don't know any better so it puts one in a very awkward position.I always tried to not annoy people, but, you know, that somehow always ended up with me annoying the shit out of somebody anyway. Eh, I'm a work-in-progress.

I asked because I have an aunt and uncle who taught their son that Saint Nick was a real person who gave gift, but he died and is no longer around, thus sucking all the fun and magic out of this holiday season for the kid. Apparently they didn't want him to miss the real reason for the season. When I heard this, I had to bite my tongue or else I would've gone off in a rant about the real reason for the season.

Did you tell your children God isn't real or do you let them believe that BS too?

no but he was the guy who would bring that great toy that you saw on the tv that you dont even dare ask mommy for.

i cant stand the greed thing that kids are encouraged to engaged in at christmas time where they beg for this or that toy and make up huge lists of presents that they want.

but everyone has at least ONE thing that they would really really like for christmas.

it used to bug santa when my son would get on his lap and ask for one thing and one thing only.
When I was little, I don't think I ever wanted more than two or three specific things. I was always inundated with presents from my over-compensating family, but only a few of them would be things I actually wanted, let alone asked for.

As I got older, I cared about receiving presents less and less, until now when asked what I want for Christmas or my birthday, I have a hard time coming up with anything.

I also am tired of the holiday greed trip. I'm tired of seeing people buy into the marketing hype of companies that have shit to sell. Just today, my mom made a joke about everyone getting a Sham-Wow this year, and I thought wistfully that I wish we could go back to the days when a Sham-Wow could be a present. You know like in the movie "A Christmas Story" when the kids are talking: "What are you getting your old man?" "A flit-gun." (gardening tool, for the youngsters out there.)

Okay, not literally a Sham-Wow or a flit-gun, but I wish we could get to a place where giving the gift is more important than what the gift is.

Santa is a story. Santa comes into your house on Christmas eve and gives you presents and watches you day and night and has reindeer that really did land on the roof and he really did eat those cookies you left for him.....is a lie.
No, it's not a lie. It's a fiction. There's a difference.

That's what I meant when I said that, in my childhood, Santa was real, but he didn't bring the presents. He wasn't even a physical person, but he was still real and he did come to the house in the night while everyone was sleeping. And you know how you could tell he'd been there? Because in the morning, the house felt different. The air felt different. It felt clear and clean and warm and friendly, and everybody woke up in a good mood. So, no Santa didn't bring the toys. But "he" -- whatever he was imagined to be -- did bring something. He brought a reset of the mind.

I think your kids would think you were cool to fight 3 ninja with a baseball bat.

Hell yes! I will look way cooler than Santa that christmas, I mean Santa took on 3 ninjas and got dragged out a bloody mess, I just come running with a bat and they scatter like little bitches. I will be the coolest dad ever.

It means you won't have to get Santa presents anymore.

Those cookies were costing me a fortune anyway.

And a child believes with all of his or her heart to the point where it might as well be real. I've seen it, it's one of the reasons I do keep putting on the suit every year.

Besides, lies to children employed to teach complex concepts have been used since man first told stories, we're still telling them now. We even have lies to adults and we all believe them, or at least act like we believe them to the point where it makes little to no difference.

I don't see the point of lying to a child. I don't see the point of putting "Daddy's" shoes on the floor and sprinkling snow around them to fake Santa's foot prints or taking bites of cookies or traipsing around outside your child's window late at night shaking bells or anything like that. What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?



(and yes I know people who do that shit)

Nah, the "Santa might bring it" is when it's *wink wink* time. Just like when the kids are in public and they say "wow, that's a cool toy" I'll say "we'll talk to Santa about it" which is code.
Yeah, my mom used to do that, too. Pissed me off. I thought, look, save the suspense games for Halloween, just either buy the thing or don't.

What lie? He'll discover the more complex truth in his own time, whatever that is.

sometimes when a child is old enough to give up the santa story and they ask their parents whether or not santa is real the parents will insist that santa IS real.

you should never do that. you should never lie to your child about the nature of reality. when asked point blank if santa is real you should never say "yes".

I don't see the point of lying to a child. I don't see the point of putting "Daddy's" shoes on the floor and sprinkling snow around them to fake Santa's foot prints or taking bites of cookies or traipsing around outside your child's window late at night shaking bells or anything like that. What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?



(and yes I know people who do that shit)

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread. It may have a real life lesson here. Teaching kids that being bullshitted is a regular course in life. Also if it sounds to good to be true than it probably is.

Those cookies were costing me a fortune anyway.

Not to mention adding to your waistline.

Not to mention adding to your waistline.

No shit, I guess killing santa actually saves me...I never thought of it that way before.

What's really the point? So you can be happy?

Or maybe just maybe to make the kids happy. Add another dimension and excitment to their life.

I don't see the point of lying to a child. I don't see the point of putting "Daddy's" shoes on the floor and sprinkling snow around them to fake Santa's foot prints or taking bites of cookies or traipsing around outside your child's window late at night shaking bells or anything like that. What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?



(and yes I know people who do that shit)
See my post #49 for a response that.

Side note: Have you seen that obnoxious Macy's ad, the one where Donald Trump, Martha Stewart and a bunch of other pseudo-celebs talk about Santa? I think it's things like that that made my kids decide he didn't exist.

My parents told me early on that Santa wasn't real. That's about it, really. No big, meaningful speech about how the idea of Santa was important. They just told me, and continued to buy me things throughout the years. :p

I don't see the point of lying to a child. I don't see the point of putting "Daddy's" shoes on the floor and sprinkling snow around them to fake Santa's foot prints or taking bites of cookies or traipsing around outside your child's window late at night shaking bells or anything like that. What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?



(and yes I know people who do that shit)

In all seriousness I still don't know how I want to go about the santa business when my child is born. I know I have at least a year to think about it.

My wife wants to do the santa thing, but I don't know. I guess I'll be able to make a better decision when the baby is born and that time gets closer..

When she asked why other parents lie to their children I told her it's because it makes the parents feel good about themselves and also so they can guilt their children into behaving.

Wow, what a bitchy and totally false thing to say.

What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?


If the kids enjoy it, who gives a fuck? I honostly feel sorry for your kids if you view everything in terms of "does it help their development?" and really believe that when a parents tries to put a sense of wonder in a kids life, theyre doing it for themself. The fact that you think so, and view doing nice things for your kids as having selfish undertones, is sad.

Get out of this world where youre style and ways of parenting are the only good ones. I assure you, theyre not.

In all seriousness I still don't know how I want to go about the santa business when my child is born. I know I have at least a year to think about it.

My wife wants to do the santa thing, but I don't know. I guess I'll be able to make a better decision when the baby is born and that time gets closer..
Oh, really, you have a good two or three years to make that plan. People who do all that shit for kids three years old or younger, are really just playing make believe with themselves. Their kids have no idea what the hell they're doing and they care even less.

Just promise me one thing: You will not dress up your infant as an elf or reindeer and use photos of him/her as your christmas cards or family blog decorations.

Oh, really, you have a good two or three years to make that plan. People who do all that shit for kids three years old or younger, are really just playing make believe with themselves. Their kids have no idea what the hell they're doing and they care even less.

Just promise me one thing: You will not dress up your infant as an elf or reindeer and use photos of him/her as your christmas cards or family blog decorations.I think the Constitution has something in it about cruel and unusual punishment, or somethin'.*

*US citizens only.

Oh, really, you have a good two or three years to make that plan. People who do all that shit for kids three years old or younger, are really just playing make believe with themselves. Their kids have no idea what the hell they're doing and they care even less.


True. I'm sure I will make the right decison when the time comes, whatever that may be.


Just promise me one thing: You will not dress up your infant as an elf or reindeer and use photos of him/her as your christmas cards or family blog decorations.

I will do what it takes to stop my wife from doing that at all costs.

This is what I am going to do with my child. (Who will only be 6 months by next christmas)

I'm going to tell him/her that santa is real, and go along with the usual tradition. Then one christmas eve when the child is around the age when most parent break the news about santa, I am going to get 4 people (friends of course). The kid will surely peek when he/she hears a noise coming from downstairs...he/she will se santa putting down presents, when suddenly *CRASH!* 3 ninjas come busting through the window and start kicking the shit out of santa. Eventually after a good struggle with many turning points, santa gets knocked unconscious and gets dragged out of the house. I will come running down with a baseball bat or something trying to get the ninjas, but of course it will be too late.


Now would that be a terrible thing to do?

Yes, yes I do. Your kid will grow up to hate ninjas!

I will do what it takes to stop my wife from doing that at all costs.Please, Minoriteeburg, you're our only hope!

True. I'm sure I will make the right decison when the time comes, whatever that may be.



I will do what it takes to stop my wife from doing that at all costs.
Thank you. I'll hold you to that. :D

In all seriousness I still don't know how I want to go about the santa business when my child is born. I know I have at least a year to think about it.

My wife wants to do the santa thing, but I don't know. I guess I'll be able to make a better decision when the baby is born and that time gets closer..
kids love santa and they very much want to believe in him. the thought of such a generous loving magical stranger makes christmas all the better.

leave out the "bad kids get coal" crap. leave out the "santa as big brother always watching you" crap. keep the fun sleigh with reindeer stuff (unless you live where there is no snow ever at christmas) and when your child is old enough to see that its a myth, let it go.

Please, Minoriteeburg, you're our only hope!

I will try my hardest although I cannot guarantee/

I just struck a deal that will have me working over 70 hours a week starting in april and that deal goes through december (pretty good f'n money), so I wont be home much during the first few months, which means I won't be around to stop her.

I don't see the point of lying to a child. I don't see the point of putting "Daddy's" shoes on the floor and sprinkling snow around them to fake Santa's foot prints or taking bites of cookies or traipsing around outside your child's window late at night shaking bells or anything like that. What does this do to further your child's development or how does it help their relationship with you? What's really the point? So you can be happy?
I don't see a point in lying either. Of course I also don't see the point in attempting to explain to my son when he firsts asks how rainbows are made about how light can be both a particle and a wave and how that interaction with water droplets in Earth's atmosphere causes a refraction that breaks the light and so on and so forth.

Santa is a story to children and a good one. Santa is, among other things, a good set of clothing for giving. He gives tirelessly, without expectations, and focuses on the happiness of those who are small and young. What's not to like or emulate there? Later on in his life of course, my son will understand the underlying concepts of Santa, but Santa will make a good label for them even then. So I do it not for myself, but to teach him some things I consider important and I do so in a time tested and honored way, that of a parable.

I admit that I'm all for the cookies though, if just because I want a snack! :tongue:

sometimes when a child is old enough to give up the santa story and they ask their parents whether or not santa is real the parents will insist that santa IS real.

you should never do that. you should never lie to your child about the nature of reality. when asked point blank if santa is real you should never say "yes".
VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Oh, really, you have a good two or three years to make that plan. People who do all that shit for kids three years old or younger, are really just playing make believe with themselves. Their kids have no idea what the hell they're doing and they care even less.

Just promise me one thing: You will not dress up your infant as an elf or reindeer and use photos of him/her as your christmas cards or family blog decorations.

Some people just have no lives.

You know, not that long ago, Christmas was low key, like Thanksgiving. It was a family gathering involving Church, a good meal with family and close friends, small, thoughtful gifts exchanged between said family and friends, Christmas songs, a small tree and the Bob Hope Christmas Special. This whole business of Black Friday, Santa Claus, competitive gift giving and maxing out credit cards just wasn't important. Now it is, and Christmas is much less pleasant and special - and the whole Santa myth is complicit in that.

kids love santa and they very much want to believe in him. the thought of such a generous loving magical stranger makes christmas all the better.

leave out the "bad kids get coal" crap. leave out the "santa as big brother always watching you" crap. keep the fun sleigh with reindeer stuff (unless you live where there is no snow ever at christmas) and when your child is old enough to see that its a myth, let it go.
My mom had it worse than the "bad kids get coal." Her evil parents -- who really did have a kernel of evil deep inside their hearts -- claimed there was such a thing as the Heinselman (yeah, grandma was part German), who would come to the house instead of Santa and take away the toys of bad children. And they actually did that to her one year -- she had a toy she especially liked, and she seriously crossed the misbehaving line one day, and they stole that toy of her room and told her the Heinselman had taken it as punishment. Then on Christmas, it got returned by Santa. So not only did she get jerked around emotionally, but she also got gypped out of a Christmas present (because she just got the old toy back). Her parents were not only liars but thieves as well.

and the whole Santa myth is complicit in that.

How? The myth of Santa was around when my parents were kids too, and Christmas was this magical low key holiday you describe. No, the Santa myth isnt to blame. Christmas becoming this way was inevitable.

The Christian groups who push for Christmas to be a part of EVERYTHING are more responsible then some story.

Some people just have no lives.

You know, not that long ago, Christmas was low key, like Thanksgiving. It was a family gathering involving Church, a good meal with family and close friends, small, thoughtful gifts exchanged between said family and friends, Christmas songs, a small tree and the Bob Hope Christmas Special. This whole business of Black Friday, Santa Claus, competitive gift giving and maxing out credit cards just wasn't important. Now it is, and Christmas is much less pleasant and special - and the whole Santa myth is complicit in that.
I dispute that slander against Santa. I disputed it on very specific grounds earlier in this merely 5-page-long thread. You know what I wish Santa would bring me? A world in which people read the fucking thread. :p

I will try my hardest although I cannot guarantee/

I just struck a deal that will have me working over 70 hours a week starting in april and that deal goes through december (pretty good f'n money), so I wont be home much during the first few months, which means I won't be around to stop her.No cop-outs. :D

I don't see a point in lying either. Of course I also don't see the point in attempting to explain to my son when he firsts asks how rainbows are made about how light can be both a particle and a wave and how that interaction with water droplets in Earth's atmosphere causes a refraction that breaks the light and so on and so forth.

Santa is a story to children and a good one. Santa is, among other things, a good set of clothing for giving. He gives tirelessly, without expectations, and focuses on the happiness of those who are small and young. What's not to like or emulate there? Later on in his life of course, my son will understand the underlying concepts of Santa, but Santa will make a good label for them even then. So I do it not for myself, but to teach him some things I consider important and I do so in a time tested and honored way, that of a parable.

I admit that I'm all for the cookies though, if just because I want a snack! :tongue:


VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
if your son asks you point blank whether or not santa exists you must NEVER say "yes".

Yes, yes I do. Your kid will grow up to hate ninjas!

Pirates pwn Ninjas anyway

:eek:


Thank you. I'll hold you to that. :D

Now the pressure is on.

kids love santa and they very much want to believe in him. the thought of such a generous loving magical stranger makes christmas all the better.

leave out the "bad kids get coal" crap. leave out the "santa as big brother always watching you" crap. keep the fun sleigh with reindeer stuff (unless you live where there is no snow ever at christmas) and when your child is old enough to see that its a myth, let it go.

Actually I have a plan for the coal nonsense. It's the same plan my father did for me. My father was a huge fan of tales from the darkside. And there was this one epsiode I remember watching with him about the Grither (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grither). And I remember we both hated that monster. So that christmas he created a stocked for the grither, and every year he would put sticks and coal in it saying "the only way to get sticks and coal was to be bad like the grither". That very stocking is hanging by my tree with sticks and coal in it as we speak.

My mom had it worse than the "bad kids get coal." Her evil parents -- who really did have a kernel of evil deep inside their hearts -- claimed there was such a thing as the Heinselman (yeah, grandma was part German), who would come to the house instead of Santa and take away the toys of bad children. And they actually did that to her one year -- she had a toy she especially liked, and she seriously crossed the misbehaving line one day, and they stole that toy of her room and told her the Heinselman had taken it as punishment. Then on Christmas, it got returned by Santa. So not only did she get jerked around emotionally, but she also got gypped out of a Christmas present (because she just got the old toy back). Her parents were not only liars but thieves as well.
wow.

just wow.

Oh, really, you have a good two or three years to make that plan. People who do all that shit for kids three years old or younger, are really just playing make believe with themselves. Their kids have no idea what the hell they're doing and they care even less.
Oh they care alright. They're usually scared shitless.

Excepting my son of course who knows that it's just Daddy wearing funny clothing again. *sighs*

Just promise me one thing: You will not dress up your infant as an elf or reindeer and use photos of him/her as your christmas cards or family blog decorations.
Already stopped my wife from doing that last year. We DID have to have a picture of him with my Santa hat on, but he actually liked that as it provided the perfect thing to play peek-a-boo with. :wink:

No cop-outs. :D

LOL i will do my best while I am an hour away working...:tongue:

A world in which people read the fucking thread. :pHey, remember the wish list. World peace first, then we move on to the hard stuff. :p

LOL i will do my best while I am an hour away working...:tongue:You'd better, mister! :D :tongue:

Pirates pwn Ninjas anyway

:eek:




Now the pressure is on.



Actually I have a plan for the coal nonsense. It's the same plan my father did for me. My father was a huge fan of tales from the darkside. And there was this one epsiode I remember watching with him about the Grither (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grither). And I remember we both hated that monster. So that christmas he created a stocked for the grither, and every year he would put sticks and coal in it saying "the only way to get sticks and coal was to be bad like the grither". That very stocking is hanging by my tree with sticks and coal in it as we speak.
oh thats kinda fun. did you gloat over the grithers sad stocking?

You know what I wish Santa would bring me? A world in which people read the fucking thread. :p

That gift has been backlogged 23 years.

I don't see a point in lying either. Of course I also don't see the point in attempting to explain to my son when he firsts asks how rainbows are made about how light can be both a particle and a wave and how that interaction with water droplets in Earth's atmosphere causes a refraction that breaks the light and so on and so forth.

Santa is a story to children and a good one. Santa is, among other things, a good set of clothing for giving. He gives tirelessly, without expectations, and focuses on the happiness of those who are small and young. What's not to like or emulate there? Later on in his life of course, my son will understand the underlying concepts of Santa, but Santa will make a good label for them even then. So I do it not for myself, but to teach him some things I consider important and I do so in a time tested and honored way, that of a parable.

I admit that I'm all for the cookies though, if just because I want a snack! :tongue:


VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
You and I are of one mind on this. *shakes hand*

You'd better, mister! :D :tongue:

She once said to me "I want to raise the baby vegan..."(because she is vegan). And I simply responded with "are you going to breastfeed the child?"
She of course said yes.

Discussion ended. :D

wow.

just wow.
Wow, indeed. 'Nuff said.

oh thats kinda fun. did you gloat over the grithers sad stocking?

hell yes! LOL I gloat over it right now as I look at it.

She once said to me "I want to raise the baby vegan..."(because she is vegan). And I simply responded with "are you going to breastfeed the child?"
She of course said yes.

Discussion ended. :D
Brother, you've got your hands full. :D

Actually I have a plan for the coal nonsense. It's the same plan my father did for me. My father was a huge fan of tales from the darkside. And there was this one epsiode I remember watching with him about the Grither (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grither). And I remember we both hated that monster. So that christmas he created a stocked for the grither, and every year he would put sticks and coal in it saying "the only way to get sticks and coal was to be bad like the grither". That very stocking is hanging by my tree with sticks and coal in it as we speak.
That is a great idea. I really like that.

How? The myth of Santa was around when my parents were kids too, and Christmas was this magical low key holiday you describe? No, the Santa myth isnt to blame. Christmas becoming this way was inevitable.

The Christian groups who push for Christmas to be a part of EVERYTHING are more responsible then some story.

I said complicit. Several factors are to blame. And yes I agree that some Christian groups bear a considerable amount of blame. But the competitive "spirit" of most people (as in I got you a better gift than he did) has been exacerbated by the Santa myth - I mean, who has the magical shop that spews toys on command - Santa. Who can get you exactly the gift you want - Santa. If you don't get exactly the gift you want, then Santa must hate you - so the parents, in order to maintain the brat's self esteem go out and nearly kill themselves and their budget looking for the limited edition top dollar gift that will prove that the kid isn't hated by Santa.

Of course, the real blame goes to the parents who will put themselves in debt for years in order to keep the kids from being disappointed by Santa.

Of course, the real blame goes to the parents who will put themselves in debt for years in order to keep the kids from being disappointed by Santa.

Its almost always the parents.

You and I are of one mind on this. *shakes hand*
Well, we finally found SOMETHING to agree on. :p

Its almost always the parents.Nu-uh. It's those meddling kids! Always asking for stuff, begging for stuff, exploiting weaknesses and the like.
...Wait.

I said complicit. Several factors are to blame. And yes I agree that some Christian groups bear a considerable amount of blame. But the competitive "spirit" of most people (as in I got you a better gift than he did) has been exacerbated by the Santa myth - I mean, who has the magical shop that spews toys on command - Santa. Who can get you exactly the gift you want - Santa. If you don't get exactly the gift you want, then Santa must hate you - so the parents, in order to maintain the brat's self esteem go out and nearly kill themselves and their budget looking for the limited edition top dollar gift that will prove that the kid isn't hated by Santa.

Of course, the real blame goes to the parents who will put themselves in debt for years in order to keep the kids from being disappointed by Santa.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14332004&postcount=49

Contains refutation of the slander against Santa. ^^

If you need me to, I'll come to your house for Christmas and read it aloud to you over and over for six hours straight. I don't mind, really.

That is a great idea. I really like that.

I remember loving it as a kid. Which is why I kept the stocking. I will keep it until it turns to dust, which then I will create another one, keeping my fathers memory alive. :D

Brother, you've got your hands full. :D

Don't I know it, but as high maintenance as she can be sometimes, I know she will raise the child right. Maybe even too right. If that makes any sense.

I remember loving it as a kid. Which is why I kept the stocking. I will keep it until it turns to dust, which then I will create another one, keeping my fathers memory alive. :D
If you don't mind, I'd like to adopt it, if I ever have kids.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14332004&postcount=49

Contains refutation of the slander against Santa. ^^

If you need me to, I'll come to your house for Christmas and read it aloud to you over and over for six hours straight. I don't mind, really.

Ok, but you'll have to bring a dessert. I hope you like antepasto, ham, green beans, mashed potatoes, rolls and apple cobbler.

If you don't mind, I'd like to adopt it, if I ever have kids.

I wouldn't mind at all. Just rent Tales from the Darkside...or read this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grither). :D

Ok, but you'll have to bring a dessert. I hope you like antepasto, ham, green beans, mashed potatoes, rolls and apple cobbler.Dinner at ASD's place! :p

Ok, but you'll have to bring a dessert. I hope you like antepasto, ham, green beans, mashed potatoes, rolls and apple cobbler.
Dude, I'm so there. I'll bring the massive collection of family holiday cookies (we've got about 20 varieties of Christmas cookies plus some for Hannukah and some vaguely solstice cookies as well).

And I'll bring a fruitcake, too. My grandmother -- the evil one with the Heinselman story -- gave us the absolute, hands-down, best German fruitcake recipe in the entire history of the world. Not only is it actually edible, it really actually tastes amazingly good. It's so good that even people who previously claimed to hate fruitcake now ask us to make it so they can have a few pieces. It's an old 19th century German recipe that the old lady got from some relatives of hers who were professional cooks back in the olden days. I'm trying to persuade my mom to publish it.

Dude, I'm so there. I'll bring the massive collection of family holiday cookies (we've got about 20 varieties of Christmas cookies plus some for Hannukah and some vaguely solstice cookies as well).

And I'll bring a fruitcake, too. My grandmother -- the evil one with the Heinselman story -- gave us the absolute, hands-down, best German fruitcake recipe in the entire history of the world. Not only is it actually edible, it really actually tastes amazingly good. It's so good that even people who previously claimed to hate fruitcake now ask us to make it so they can have a few pieces. It's an old 19th century German recipe that the old lady got from some relatives of hers who were professional cooks back in the olden days. I'm trying to persuade my mom to publish it.

I actually like good fruitcake. Would it be out of line to ask for the recipe?

this should be the full grither episode...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoUaPsoLDRE(pt 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpdPHDxTXIA (pt 2)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM-L03AQwu4 (pt 3)

Dude, I'm so there. I'll bring the massive collection of family holiday cookies (we've got about 20 varieties of Christmas cookies plus some for Hannukah and some vaguely solstice cookies as well).

And I'll bring a fruitcake, too. My grandmother -- the evil one with the Heinselman story -- gave us the absolute, hands-down, best German fruitcake recipe in the entire history of the world. Not only is it actually edible, it really actually tastes amazingly good. It's so good that even people who previously claimed to hate fruitcake now ask us to make it so they can have a few pieces. It's an old 19th century German recipe that the old lady got from some relatives of hers who were professional cooks back in the olden days. I'm trying to persuade my mom to publish it.Are you serious? Fruitcake that's actually, you know, edible? What must I do to get this recipe?

I actually like good fruitcake. Would it be out of line to ask for the recipe?
Yes, in the sense that I don't have it (it's under lock and key at mom's house), and it's, like, 3 pages long (and you have to make it at least 3 weeks in advance anyway), and I intend to build my fortune on copyrighting the thing. ;)

But I do want to share it with the world one of these days. Right now, though, it's my mom's treasure.

The cake comes out medium brown, firmly soft (meaning not hard but not soft like regular cake), moist, with a consistency similar to a good banana-nut bread. It contains tons of dried and candied fruits and spices and another ton of mixed boozes.

and another ton of mixed boozes.

As any good German dish would.

I actually like good fruitcake. Would it be out of line to ask for the recipe?

I have never tasted a fruitcake I have liked...

this should be the full grither episode...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoUaPsoLDRE(pt 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpdPHDxTXIA (pt 2)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM-L03AQwu4 (pt 3)
Thank you! :D

Are you serious? Fruitcake that's actually, you know, edible? What must I do to get this recipe?
"A [fruitcake] so delicious, you could plotz." Start an online petition for it. I so seriously want to publish this recipe with my mom. Also many of our other traditional baking recipes.

Yes, in the sense that I don't have it (it's under lock and key at mom's house), and it's, like, 3 pages long (and you have to make it at least 3 weeks in advance anyway), and I intend to build my fortune on copyrighting the thing. ;)

But I do want to share it with the world one of these days. Right now, though, it's my mom's treasure.

The cake comes out medium brown, firmly soft (meaning not hard but not soft like regular cake), moist, with a consistency similar to a good banana-nut bread. It contains tons of dried and candied fruits and spices and another ton of mixed boozes.I forgot what I was going to say, but that sounds fantastic/delicious/other word for very good.

"A [fruitcake] so delicious, you could plotz." Start an online petition for it. I so seriously want to publish this recipe with my mom. Also many of our other traditional baking recipes.Let me know when you do. I'll buy the book.

Nu-uh. It's those meddling kids! Always asking for stuff, begging for stuff, exploiting weaknesses and the like.
...Wait.

Habits they learn from their parents who let them get away with it.

I have never tasted a fruitcake I have liked...
have you ever had actual home made fruit cake soaked in whatever liquor?

im thinking that fruitcake sucks today because what you get is factory made and has no booze in it. that is a recipe for fail.

Thank you! :D



anytime. I remember the episode freaking me out when I was little, seems so silly now.

have you ever had actual home made fruit cake soaked in whatever liquor?

im thinking that fruitcake sucks today because what you get is factory made and has no booze in it. that is a recipe for fail.

I have had homemade fruitcake soaked in liquor, and I would rather have the liquor.

I have never tasted a fruitcake I have liked...
Most fruitcakes are abominations against nature. They are just the most horrific things -- hard, heavy, they smell like moldy tobacco and taste even worse.

But OUR fruitcake is so amazingly good, when my mom or I would bring one to work, it would be gone in less than an hour, like a plague of locusts had swept through the employee kitchen area. And around Thanksgiving time, co-workers would come sidling up and asking if we were going to make "The Fruitcake" again this year. That's what it has come to be called. "The Fruitcake."

And I don't even like spice cakes/cookies. But I still stand in awe of The Fruitcake.

Most fruitcakes are abominations against nature. They are just the most horrific things -- hard, heavy, they smell like moldy tobacco and taste even worse.

But OUR fruitcake is so amazingly good, when my mom or I would bring one to work, it would be gone in less than an hour, like a plague of locusts had swept through the employee kitchen area. And around Thanksgiving time, co-workers would come sidling up and asking if we were going to make "The Fruitcake" again this year. That's what it has come to be called. "The Fruitcake."

And I don't even like spice cakes/cookies. But I still stand in awe of The Fruitcake.

I would love to try your fruitcake, and maybe I will change my stance on it.

But I still stand in awe of The Fruitcake.

Part of me really wants to sig this.

I have had homemade fruitcake soaked in liquor, and I would rather have the liquor.
ok.

must be the candied fruit.

Most fruitcakes are abominations against nature. They are just the most horrific things -- hard, heavy, they smell like moldy tobacco and taste even worse.

But OUR fruitcake is so amazingly good, when my mom or I would bring one to work, it would be gone in less than an hour, like a plague of locusts had swept through the employee kitchen area. And around Thanksgiving time, co-workers would come sidling up and asking if we were going to make "The Fruitcake" again this year. That's what it has come to be called. "The Fruitcake."

And I don't even like spice cakes/cookies. But I still stand in awe of The Fruitcake.This fruitcake is my hero. (Lmao.)
I love fruitcake, but nobody else in my family does. So, I always end up making one just for myself, and I end up eating the entire thing, too. But if this fruitcake is really this good, maybe I can convince them to try it.

I have had homemade fruitcake soaked in liquor, and I would rather have the liquor.
Many of them are merely soaked in liquor, and that's not good. You have to bake the liquor in and then let the cake age in an airtight wrapping in the dark until the liquors and sugars mature the texture and moisture of the cake. It takes at least 3 weeks, 4-5 is better.

Many of them are merely soaked in liquor, and that's not good. You have to bake the liquor in and then let the cake age in an airtight wrapping in the dark until the liquors and sugars mature the texture and moisture of the cake. It takes at least 3 weeks, 4-5 is better.

I don't think I have had a fruitcake like the one you are describing...

I would love to try your fruitcake, and maybe I will change my stance on it.

This fruitcake is my hero. (Lmao.)
I love fruitcake, but nobody else in my family does. So, I always end up making one just for myself, and I end up eating the entire thing, too. But if this fruitcake is really this good, maybe I can convince them to try it.

I wish I could send you all a mini one in the mail. (They bake up great as loaves in several sizes.) Maybe next year, or for the new year, if mom has enough ingredients to make more. She only made one loaf this year and it's MINE!! (partially)

I don't think I have had a fruitcake like the one you are describing...Then you've not had a 'real' fruitcake until you've tried one like that. :p

I wish I could send you all a mini one in the mail. (They bake up great as loaves in several sizes.) Maybe next year, or for the new year, if mom has enough ingredients to make more. She only made one loaf this year and it's MINE!! (partially)

I want even the slightest bite.

Then you've not had a 'real' fruitcake until you've tried one like that. :p

I need to....

I don't think I have had a fruitcake like the one you are describing...
Nobody has unless they've had ours. I swear, this is an heirloom recipe (like an heirloom tomato). It's from a bygone era. I think we might have the only surviving copy of this recipe unless there are a few floating around some old ladies' houses in Germany somewhere.

Nobody has unless they've had ours. I swear, this is an heirloom recipe (like an heirloom tomato). It's from a bygone era. I think we might have the only surviving copy of this recipe unless there are a few floating around some old ladies' houses in Germany somewhere.

I will kill for that recipe...just name someone and they will be dead.

Ahem. Since we know it's Clement Moore, he's hardly "anonymous", and since it was written in 1860 or thereabouts, it's a 19th century poem.
Clement Moore's authorship has been disputed (not the least of all by Mr. Moore himself), and I shall add to the critical discourse by asserting that the poem was written and published in the early 20th century.
All claims to the contrary, like most of Western literary history, are part of an elaborate hoax concocted by a mysterious cabal of English teachers and professors.
I dispute that slander against Santa. I disputed it on very specific grounds earlier in this merely 5-page-long thread. You know what I wish Santa would bring me? A world in which people read the fucking thread. :p
Maybe if you didn't keep leaving your toys out all over the floor, Santa would have brought you this world . . .

I wish I could send you all a mini one in the mail. (They bake up great as loaves in several sizes.) Maybe next year, or for the new year, if mom has enough ingredients to make more. She only made one loaf this year and it's MINE!! (partially)I can wait a year to change my family's opinion on fruitcake. :)

I want even the slightest bite.
Well, I want to make some small ones to have for the rest of the winter, after New Year's. So if I can manage it -- because it's quite a project -- I'll let you know. But they won't be ready to eat until February at the earliest.

I will kill for that recipe...just name someone and they will be dead.
Don't tempt me...

I can wait a year to change my family's opinion on fruitcake. :)
I'll let you guys know when I make some. I want to practice making them, because, you know, mom's hale and hearty and all, but she's not young anymore.

Well, I want to make some small ones to have for the rest of the winter, after New Year's. So if I can manage it -- because it's quite a project -- I'll let you know. But they won't be ready to eat until February at the earliest.

Don't worry, I will be ready to eat them.


No matter what month they are made.

I will kill for that recipe...just name someone and they will be dead.Oh, now we have to kill people? Dude, I just got rid of the las-... Never mind. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens.

Oh, now we have to kill people? Dude, I just got rid of the las-... Never mind. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens.

*gets blackmail footage*

Maybe if you didn't keep leaving your toys out all over the floor, Santa would have brought you this world . . .
The Heinselman came and took that world away from me, I guess. ;)

Well, I want to make some small ones to have for the rest of the winter, after New Year's. So if I can manage it -- because it's quite a project -- I'll let you know. But they won't be ready to eat until February at the earliest.No problem. I have nothing but time.

Don't tempt me...


I'll let you guys know when I make some. I want to practice making them, because, you know, mom's hale and hearty and all, but she's not young anymore.Excellent. :)

*gets blackmail footage*Not again! I let you blackmail me into helping last time. What's in it for me, other than the obvious?

Not again! I let you blackmail into helping last time. What's in it for me, other than the obvious?

You must find a way to get Muravyets fruitcake to me.....or else.

I need to hit the hay. 'Night, all.

I need to hit the hay. 'Night, all.

G'night. and merry christmas, i wont be on for at least another two days.

You must find a way to get Muravyets fruitcake to me.....or else.Steal it? Are you kidding? That'll ruin my chances of ever getting any, because we know that you certainly won't give me any. You'll just use it to blackmail me more. :eek:

Steal it? Are you kidding? That'll ruin my chances of ever getting any, because we know that you certainly won't give me any. You'll just use it to blackmail me more. :eek:

If you steal it for me you will get a piece. You have my word.

*shrug*

I'm half Jewish...the question never came up...we just never had "santa" in the traditional sense. We still celebrated Christmas, and it is still one of my favorite holidays...not because of Santa and the presents, but because people are nicer. More giving, more understanding. The world is cleaner. There's snow and lights. It's a chance to say "thanks" to the people you love.

You don't need Santa for any of that.

If you steal it for me you will get a piece. You have my word.That's what you said last time. [/pointless whining]

Don't tempt me...


I'll let you guys know when I make some. I want to practice making them, because, you know, mom's hale and hearty and all, but she's not young anymore.

Mmmm. Good fruitcake. My grandma (also of German descent) made a killer fruitcake. I think it was made with mostly dried fruit and very little candied, nuts and various sorts of booze, it was more rich than sweet. The recipe died with her. My mom and aunts had no interest in cooking and I was too young to know what was being lost.

I might not kill for it, but if I beg hard enough ... ?

That's what you said last time. [/pointless whining]

but you did not do as i asked last time, if you do as i say you get rewarded.

but you did not do as i asked last time, if you do as i say you get rewarded.You're just bad at giving instructions.

Your children must be insufferable for other adults to be around. Of course, I loathe children in general, but I especially loathe children who think they have inside adult knowledge about things. They always presume to correct adults they don't know about off-hand remarks, and their parents smile at you like you're supposed to be impressed at how clever they are.

You may tell kids the truth about Santa. I'm usually the one who tells them that it is not their place to correct their elders.

But then, as I said, I don't like kids. Somehow, though, I still don't see that it's a problem for them to enjoy a little fantasy once a year.
Uh, what? Seriously?

This is not like you, Muravyets. Children aren't loathable! And certainly the Smunklings aren't.

Uh, what? Seriously?

This is not like you, Muravyets. Children aren't loathable! And certainly the Smunklings aren't.Dude, welcome back! How was it?

Dude, welcome back! How was it?

It was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life.

Uh, what? Seriously?

This is not like you, Muravyets. Children aren't loathable! And certainly the Smunklings aren't.
The scales fall from your eyes. This is a side of me you have not seen before -- though to be honest, I can't imagine what I have ever posted in NSG that would have made it a surprise to you to find out I that I loathe children.

I should clarify, though. I loathe the company of children and avoid it as much as I can -- and I am very successful at it. Children demand attention, but are not interesting. Children interrupt my train of thought, usually for no good reason. And society restricts me from interacting with children in a way that would make them tolerable to me. For instance, I am expected to respect their parents as some kind of controlling authority over them, and cooperate with those parents' apparent agenda of raising the little buggers to be both annoying and stupid. If it were up to me, the words "Spongebob Squarepants" would be scoured from their little mouths and replaced with real conversation about things like history and the natural sciences, as well as proper training in social manners.

The scales fall from your eyes. This is a side of me you have not seen before -- though to be honest, I can't imagine what I have ever posted in NSG that would have made it a surprise to you to find out I that I loathe children.

I should clarify, though. I loathe the company of children and avoid it as much as I can -- and I am very successful at it. Children demand attention, but are not interesting. Children interrupt my train of thought, usually for no good reason. And society restricts me from interacting with children in a way that would make them tolerable to me. For instance, I am expected to respect their parents as some kind of controlling authority over them, and cooperate with those parents' apparent agenda of raising the little buggers to be both annoying and stupid. If it were up to me, the words "Spongebob Squarepants" would be scoured from their little mouths and replaced with real conversation about things like history and the natural sciences, as well as proper training in social manners.

We're very glad it's not up to you then. I can see where you're coming from, cause little children can annoy me too, but seriously, the hating on them does not MAKE SENSE. Maybe it's just my personal belief, but you don't hate people like that unless they have raped your dog or caused you serious psychological damage (and yes, there have been people, but I can't even bother myself to let them irk me anymore)

Wow, what a bitchy and totally false thing to say.
It wasn't bitchy. I don't believe it's false. There is no reason to introduce a fiction that you hold as absolute truth into a child's life other than to make you feel good. It's not helping the child.

If the kids enjoy it, who gives a fuck?
Let's apply this logic to everything then.

I honostly feel sorry for your kids if you view everything in terms of "does it help their development?" and really believe that when a parents tries to put a sense of wonder in a kids life, theyre doing it for themself. The fact that you think so, and view doing nice things for your kids as having selfish undertones, is sad.
Their development is very important to me as a parent. I try to avoid things that will harm them.

I believe lying to people is almost always selfish.

Get out of this world where youre style and ways of parenting are the only good ones. I assure you, theyre not.
I never said that "my" way was the only good one. I was asked by the OP what I did, so I answered. A lot of people had comments about it, so I engaged in conversation.
I don't see a point in lying either. Of course I also don't see the point in attempting to explain to my son when he firsts asks how rainbows are made about how light can be both a particle and a wave and how that interaction with water droplets in Earth's atmosphere causes a refraction that breaks the light and so on and so forth.
Why would you say anything else? :confused:

Santa is a story to children and a good one. Santa is, among other things, a good set of clothing for giving. He gives tirelessly, without expectations, and focuses on the happiness of those who are small and young. What's not to like or emulate there? Later on in his life of course, my son will understand the underlying concepts of Santa, but Santa will make a good label for them even then. So I do it not for myself, but to teach him some things I consider important and I do so in a time tested and honored way, that of a parable.
Santa as an idea is very different than Santa as the dude who plops down your chimney and gives you toys. Santa can be a story, Santa can be a parable, Santa can be an ideal. In my house Santa isn't a real life living breathing fat man who lives on the north pole and keeps track of your actions and brings you whatever you want while driving a flying sleigh with caribou. All of that is a lie.

I admit that I'm all for the cookies though, if just because I want a snack! :tongue:
:p Nothing is stopping you from eating truthful cookies with your son.

For instance, I am expected to respect their parents as some kind of controlling authority over them,
Is it really that hard to buck?

Why would you say anything else? :confused:

Heh, I dunno, I'd want it in simpler words.

Heh, I dunno, I'd want it in simpler words.

Well, yeah, but like why would you make up a lie about how rainbows are made? Why wouldn't you tell your kid the truth?

Well, yeah, but like why would you make up a lie about how rainbows are made? Why wouldn't you tell your kid the truth?

I don't think NERV is advocating lying. He seems to be saying that you don't have to explain it in the verbose scientific way. More like "putting it simply"

It was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life.Huh. I thought you would say something like that. Well, welcome back.

and I told her he was made up

Why???

Yes, in the sense that I don't have it (it's under lock and key at mom's house), and it's, like, 3 pages long (and you have to make it at least 3 weeks in advance anyway), and I intend to build my fortune on copyrighting the thing. ;)

But I do want to share it with the world one of these days. Right now, though, it's my mom's treasure.

The cake comes out medium brown, firmly soft (meaning not hard but not soft like regular cake), moist, with a consistency similar to a good banana-nut bread. It contains tons of dried and candied fruits and spices and another ton of mixed boozes.

This is sounding more and more like a typical English Christmas Cake, such as (ironically) my grandmother makes. The US stuff must be an abomination, but it isn't exactly unusual over here to find decent fruitcake.

I don't think I have had a fruitcake like the one you are describing...

Heh. My grandmother makes it as well, and I know recipes can be found fairly easily over here in the UK. It's just your fault for being from such a backwards country :-P

It was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life.

You must make a thread, tell us all about it!

ASD, They're quoting from "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."

Give it a read sometime.

I think my kids already know about Santa...they aren't fooled very easily and not for very long. Christmas is still awesome though cuz of the presents, so they don't seem to care.

I said complicit. Several factors are to blame. And yes I agree that some Christian groups bear a considerable amount of blame. But the competitive "spirit" of most people (as in I got you a better gift than he did) has been exacerbated by the Santa myth - I mean, who has the magical shop that spews toys on command - Santa. Who can get you exactly the gift you want - Santa. If you don't get exactly the gift you want, then Santa must hate you - so the parents, in order to maintain the brat's self esteem go out and nearly kill themselves and their budget looking for the limited edition top dollar gift that will prove that the kid isn't hated by Santa.

Of course, the real blame goes to the parents who will put themselves in debt for years in order to keep the kids from being disappointed by Santa.
That has nothing to do with Santa and everything to do with being an irresponsible twit living beyond ones' means.

These are the same people who will buy a house no money down and wonder why the bank foreclosed when they couldn't keep up with the balloon payment, or buy a new car they don't need and can't afford because when these are gone, so are the savings.

Idiots are idiots, whether they go with the Santa myth or not.

Clement Moore's authorship has been disputed (not the least of all by Mr. Moore himself), and I shall add to the critical discourse by asserting that the poem was written and published in the early 20th century.
All claims to the contrary, like most of Western literary history, are part of an elaborate hoax concocted by a mysterious cabal of English teachers and professors.
For what purpose?

For what purpose?

Evil, of course.

We're very glad it's not up to you then. I can see where you're coming from, cause little children can annoy me too, but seriously, the hating on them does not MAKE SENSE. Maybe it's just my personal belief, but you don't hate people like that unless they have raped your dog or caused you serious psychological damage (and yes, there have been people, but I can't even bother myself to let them irk me anymore)
You know, your life online would probably appear a lot less hostile if you just read the word rather than trying give them a "voice."

I am explaining why I intensely dislike being around children. Not liking being around children =/= hate.

But you know what I do hate? When an honest expression of a personal feeling about something is met with a lecture about how I should be different.

You know what? I'm going to amend my statement. Maybe it's not children I detest. Maybe it's the adults who are always hanging around them, getting all defensive and preachy if anyone else doesn't act they're just hopelessly in love with their precious little angels while forcing me to stand by helpless to stop them stunting the kids' growth with shitty food, restricted movement, overly regimented time, and idiotic entertainments.

I think that it's screwed up in this society that we think children have to believe in ridiculous stories in order to have any "magic" in their lives. It seems to be a silent consent to the statement "All things that are not unrealistic and supernatural are automatically boring and not beautiful at all." It seems to cheapen the scientific wonder that one can have simply looking at the world. As for the celebration of Christmas, well, I don't have any kids, but I do celebrate Christmas, if only for the free shit. However, I don't have any pretensions or misgivings about what it means, nor do I believe in Santa, (I sure hope not, I'm 19 years old!) and yet I manage to enjoy it somehow.

You know what? I'm going to amend my statement. Maybe it's not children I detest. Maybe it's the adults who are always hanging around them, getting all defensive and preachy if anyone else doesn't act they're just hopelessly in love with their precious little angels while forcing me to stand by helpless to stop them stunting the kids' growth with shitty food, restricted movement, overly regimented time, and idiotic entertainments.I hate the "My child can do no wrong" sentiment. Parents should be honest with themselves and admit that their kids can fuck things up just like everybody else.

I told my son Santa Claus wasn't real from the get go and he was totally fine with it.

You know, your life online would probably appear a lot less hostile if you just read the word rather than trying give them a "voice."

I am explaining why I intensely dislike being around children. Not liking being around children =/= hate.

But you know what I do hate? When an honest expression of a personal feeling about something is met with a lecture about how I should be different.

You know what? I'm going to amend my statement. Maybe it's not children I detest. Maybe it's the adults who are always hanging around them, getting all defensive and preachy if anyone else doesn't act they're just hopelessly in love with their precious little angels while forcing me to stand by helpless to stop them stunting the kids' growth with shitty food, restricted movement, overly regimented time, and idiotic entertainments.

I have two children, now adults. If they ever have kids, I will love my grandchildren.

This doesn't mean I like kids or enjoy their company. Even the brightest kids are boring just because they don't have life experience and can't converse on an adult level. When you add obnoxious behavior, especially parent-supported obnoxions bevior they become downright loathesome. I wish parents would actually take the time to teach their kids the fundamentals of acceptable behavior in public places and towards non-familial adults. This is much more important than whether the kid believes in mythical beings and is being neglected.

I have two children, now adults. If they ever have kids, I will love my grandchildren.

This doesn't mean I like kids or enjoy their company. Even the brightest kids are boring just because they don't have life experience and can't converse on an adult level. When you add obnoxious behavior, especially parent-supported obnoxions bevior they become downright loathesome. I wish parents would actually take the time to teach their kids the fundamentals of acceptable behavior in public places and towards non-familial adults. This is much more important than whether the kid believes in mythical beings and is being neglected.
Thank you for getting what I meant.

The fact is kids are people, just like adults. They should be learning how to be adults, and adults should be teaching them that -- by example, if at all possible. Kids should not be injecting their play world into non-familial adults' personal space.

Now, in my opinion, this does not mean that kids should not be allowed a fantasy life, nor that adults should never engage in make believe with kids. Quite the contrary. But I completely agree with you that a child who is not properly socialized in how to behave around adults is a problem. And yes, a kid who is fully steeped in Santa lore but does not know how to behave in a restaurant, for example, is not being properly brought up, in my opinion. Just as a child who is full possession of truth and facts, but does not know enough not to talk down to their elders to their faces is also a problem.

The scales fall from your eyes. This is a side of me you have not seen before -- though to be honest, I can't imagine what I have ever posted in NSG that would have made it a surprise to you to find out I that I loathe children.

I should clarify, though. I loathe the company of children and avoid it as much as I can -- and I am very successful at it. Children demand attention, but are not interesting. Children interrupt my train of thought, usually for no good reason. And society restricts me from interacting with children in a way that would make them tolerable to me. For instance, I am expected to respect their parents as some kind of controlling authority over them, and cooperate with those parents' apparent agenda of raising the little buggers to be both annoying and stupid. If it were up to me, the words "Spongebob Squarepants" would be scoured from their little mouths and replaced with real conversation about things like history and the natural sciences, as well as proper training in social manners.
I can see where you're coming from, but you're being more than a little ridiculous, and you know it. You're lumping all children under some vague view you have of society, and it's really rather disturbing, especially given how you constantly argue about how such groupings, such broad-brushing is seriously harmful.

But, hey, that's what I get for assuming there was at least ONE decent person on NSG...

Huh. I thought you would say something like that. Well, welcome back.
Thank you.

You must make a thread, tell us all about it!

How would I make it discussion worthy though? It'd be a blog post, and I'm not about to blog post on NSG.

You know, your life online would probably appear a lot less hostile if you just read the word rather than trying give them a "voice."

I am explaining why I intensely dislike being around children. Not liking being around children =/= hate.

But you know what I do hate? When an honest expression of a personal feeling about something is met with a lecture about how I should be different.

You know what? I'm going to amend my statement. Maybe it's not children I detest. Maybe it's the adults who are always hanging around them, getting all defensive and preachy if anyone else doesn't act they're just hopelessly in love with their precious little angels while forcing me to stand by helpless to stop them stunting the kids' growth with shitty food, restricted movement, overly regimented time, and idiotic entertainments.

Well, fucking excuse me then. Yes, I was overly harsh. Yes, I read you wrong. But you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt now are you? I respect you, but it's perfectly all right to not give me the same treatment. I honestly expressed a personal feeling too, and you fucking chewed me out for it. I realize you do this to everyone you argue with, and you do have some cogent points. You're still an asshole. Well, I'm off. Merry fucking Christmas!

I can see where you're coming from, but you're being more than a little ridiculous, and you know it. You're lumping all children under some vague view you have of society, and it's really rather disturbing, especially given how you constantly argue about how such groupings, such broad-brushing is seriously harmful.

But, hey, that's what I get for assuming there was at least ONE decent person on NSG... Way to kneejerk there, Mr. Hysteria.

I have very little doubt that Mur'v would like my kids. In small doses. Sort of like I do. But that's because I absolutely agree that most kids these days end up raised by their playstations and the television rather than their parents.

I don't really like to be around kids all that much either...oh noes! I must be an unfit mother!

Well, fucking excuse me then. Yes, I was overly harsh. Yes, I read you wrong. But you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt now are you? I respect you, but it's perfectly all right to not give me the same treatment. I honestly expressed a personal feeling too, and you fucking chewed me out for it. I realize you do this to everyone you argue with, and you do have some cogent points. You're still an asshole. Well, I'm off. Merry fucking Christmas!

Someone call the waaaaaaaaahmublance!

Someone call the waaaaaaaaahmublance!

oh oh oh! Can you have them grab us some french cries and a waaaaaaaaaaahmburger?

oh oh oh! Can you have them grab us some french cries and a waaaaaaaaaaahmburger?

I would but I'm already dining on smoked salmon and cream cheese, along with some baby potatoes and asparagus cooked in a chicken/garlic/whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine sauce.

Way to kneejerk there, Mr. Hysteria.
Eh.

I have very little doubt that Mur'v would like my kids. In small doses. Sort of like I do. But that's because I absolutely agree that most kids these days end up raised by their playstations and the television rather than their parents.

I don't really like to be around kids all that much either...oh noes! I must be an unfit mother!

Well, yes, as I said, she does have some points. But there's a difference between making points about children not being raised properly(Which, let's face it, they're often not) and making a gross generalization about all children being automatically horrible and such just because SOME aren't necessarily raised to her standards.

It's that gross generalization that I'm reacting to, because I kinda had the impression that Muravyets doesn't make gross generalizations.

Someone call the waaaaaaaaahmublance!

That might just be the least intelligent thing ever to have graced these boards.

So... Santa was an employee of Mattel Inc.?

Please, everyone knows he works for Macy's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_34_street

That might just be the least intelligent thing ever to have graced these boards.

Try a mirror.

For what purpose?
Are you referring to the purpose of my assertions or to the conspiracy? Either way, the answer is: For the Greater Evil of Mankind.

Please, everyone knows he works for Macy's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_34_street
Oh, that's right. I forgot. :D

Eh.


Well, yes, as I said, she does have some points. But there's a difference between making points about children not being raised properly(Which, let's face it, they're often not) and making a gross generalization about all children being automatically horrible and such just because SOME aren't necessarily raised to her standards.

It's that gross generalization that I'm reacting to, because I kinda had the impression that Muravyets doesn't make gross generalizations.
In the interest of the holiday season, I am not going to explain to you exactly how you're full of it on this point, nor how you are twisting my words, nor how you are trying and failing to escalate a few snarky expressions into some kind of half-assed debate topic. For the sake of the goodwill of Santa Claus himself, I even won't remind you that we are off topic.

However, despite the season, I am not going to express regret that someone who clearly does not understand what I'm saying also doesn't like my personality, nor will I apologize for something I did not actually say, nor will I pretend to care that you failed to discern the difference between me making a broad generalization about how I feel about other people, versus a broad generalization about other people, nor will I humor your knee-jerk reaction to that one topic I got snarky about that just happened to push one of your buttons.

So, although it may be a somewhat mixed bag, that's what I'll give you for the holidays this year.

Oh, that's right. I forgot. :D


In the interest of the holiday season, I am not going to explain to you exactly how you're full of it on this point, nor how you are twisting my words, nor how you are trying and failing to escalate a few snarky expressions into some kind of half-assed debate topic. For the sake of the goodwill of Santa Claus himself, I even won't remind you that we are off topic.

However, despite the season, I am not going to express regret that someone who clearly does not understand what I'm saying also doesn't like my personality, nor will I apologize for something I did not actually say, nor will I pretend to care that you failed to discern the difference between me making a broad generalization about how I feel about other people, versus a broad generalization about other people, nor will I humor your knee-jerk reaction to that one topic I got snarky about that just happened to push one of your buttons.

So, although it may be a somewhat mixed bag, that's what I'll give you for the holidays this year.
So I basically misunderstood everything. Gotcha. :(

In the interest of the holiday season, I am not going to explain to you exactly how you're full of it on this point, nor how you are twisting my words, nor how you are trying and failing to escalate a few snarky expressions into some kind of half-assed debate topic. For the sake of the goodwill of Santa Claus himself, I even won't remind you that we are off topic.

However, despite the season, I am not going to express regret that someone who clearly does not understand what I'm saying also doesn't like my personality, nor will I apologize for something I did not actually say, nor will I pretend to care that you failed to discern the difference between me making a broad generalization about how I feel about other people, versus a broad generalization about other people, nor will I humor your knee-jerk reaction to that one topic I got snarky about that just happened to push one of your buttons.

So, although it may be a somewhat mixed bag, that's what I'll give you for the holidays this year.

So you're not going to be pleased that I have boxed up several orphans for your X-mas present?

I am shocked, shocked!!

EDIT: Don't worry I've already taught them that Santa was killed yesterday in a drive-by.

So I basically misunderstood everything. Gotcha. :(
You got your focus wrong. You focused on something the comments were not about. But since I'm not Santa, let's just ignore my obnoxious habits for a while, okay? Actually, the only reason I made that generalization about how I feel about other people at all was to turn my original snark into more of a general comment and less of a personal criticism of something Smunkee said.

So you're not going to be pleased that I have boxed up several orphans for your X-mas present?

I am shocked, shocked!!

EDIT: Don't worry I've already taught them that Santa was killed yesterday in a drive-by.
:D Excellent! I've got just the sauce for them. ;) Thank you!

You got your focus wrong. You focused on something the comments were not about. But since I'm not Santa, let's just ignore my obnoxious habits for a while, okay? Actually, the only reason I made that generalization about how I feel about other people at all was to turn my original snark into more of a general comment and less of a personal criticism of something Smunkee said.

Oh, okay.

I apologize for being overly knee-jerky there, Muravyets.

Merry Christmas?

Oh, okay.

I apologize for being overly knee-jerky there, Muravyets.

Merry Christmas?
And a happy new year! :fluffle: (mind the spines :))

So I was thinking more about this whole Santa thing and especially about the attitude that the story is a lie (rather than a fiction, a story that's about something).

It occurs to me that, although Santa Claus is based on a Christian character -- the historical person of St. Nicholas -- the character's function in the holiday is one that is common among many non/pre-Christian mid-winter festival traditions as well. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are essential parts of many traditions' festival observances, and are almost always accompanied by some kind of spirit that facilitates that, whether it is a saint, or a fairy tale character like the Italian La Bufana, or ghosts, or angels, or the fairy folk. And what's the point of it?

The point is connection and sharing. Giving, sharing with both those we know and with strangers (representing the spirits) is kind of the whole point of these holidays.

The act of giving a gift, both symbolically and literally, is the act of creating happiness. Of putting out happiness into the world around you. In the middle of winter, when it's dark and cold and difficult to live, these small, random acts of sharing and connecting are the most powerful message of hope, the most powerful boost to happiness you can get.

And the wish fulfillment magic of it -- the part that characters like Santa play -- is that the gift is going to be something you really need. Something that's going to get you through that cold, dark, hard spot to a warmer, brighter time. Even if it all it is, is the happiness that comes from the gift, that happiness is a needed thing in the world.

And sometimes, it's not just that happy feeling. Sometimes it really is the fulfillment of a wish when you need it most, maybe when you hadn't even formed the wish yet.

We saw two examples of that "magic" just this year:

An anonymous donor gave $1million dollars so that about 200 people completely wiped out by a fire that destroyed their apartment building could each get a check for about $17,000 to help them get back on their feet:
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/36692839.html

Archway Cookies, forced into bankruptcy by bad management, and its employees screwed over royally in the process, bought by another company that not only offered to rehire the former employees at their same wage, but also issued every one of them a $1500 VISA gift card to get them through the holidays after they'd lost a few weeks' wages due to the shut-down:
http://blondieandbrownie.blogspot.com/2008/12/there-is-santa-archway-cookies-returns.html
http://www.yumsugar.com/2622182
(and before that happened: http://minnieapolis.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/10/1978456-archway-cookies-business-crumbles-into-chapter-11-creative-bookkeeping-at-fault)

Those people who gave that money, and offered those jobs and gave what amounted to pre-job bonuses, didn't have to do that. But they were moved to because of the season, because this is the time when people benefit the most from knowing they're not all alone out there, that someone else wishes them well.

That's what characters like Santa represent. That caring about other people's happiness and that urge to fulfill it, even if only a little.

I'm not a Christian, and technically, Christmas is not my holiday. But my festival season stretches from the solstice to the new year, and I'm happy to honor all the holidays that fall around the same time. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are a big part of that in my life. And since I'm an American, I am happy to adopt that peculiarly American, non-denominational, pop-culturized Santa Claus as the figure of the season's "jolly old elf" who brings that sharing and giving magic to everyone, who reminds us of it when maybe we need reminding, and who personifies on the outside how we feel on the inside.

And if there's anyone out there who thinks that magic is a lie, or who thinks that's not worth making up fairy tales about so that little kids will remember it, or who thinks it's better to tell children that other people do tell stories about Santa only to assuage their own selfish guilt feelings, then I feel sorry for those people. I seriously do.

So I was thinking more about this whole Santa thing and especially about the attitude that the story is a lie (rather than a fiction, a story that's about something).

It occurs to me that, although Santa Claus is based on a Christian character -- the historical person of St. Nicholas -- the character's function in the holiday is one that is common among many non/pre-Christian mid-winter festival traditions as well. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are essential parts of many traditions' festival observances, and are almost always accompanied by some kind of spirit that facilitates that, whether it is a saint, or a fairy tale character like the Italian La Bufana, or ghosts, or angels, or the fairy folk. And what's the point of it?

The point is connection and sharing. Giving, sharing with both those we know and with strangers (representing the spirits) is kind of the whole point of these holidays.

The act of giving a gift, both symbolically and literally, is the act of creating happiness. Of putting out happiness into the world around you. In the middle of winter, when it's dark and cold and difficult to live, these small, random acts of sharing and connecting are the most powerful message of hope, the most powerful boost to happiness you can get.

And the wish fulfillment magic of it -- the part that characters like Santa play -- is that the gift is going to be something you really need. Something that's going to get you through that cold, dark, hard spot to a warmer, brighter time. Even if it all it is, is the happiness that comes from the gift, that happiness is a needed thing in the world.

And sometimes, it's not just that happy feeling. Sometimes it really is the fulfillment of a wish when you need it most, maybe when you hadn't even formed the wish yet.

We saw two examples of that "magic" just this year:

An anonymous donor gave $1million dollars so that about 200 people completely wiped out by a fire that destroyed their apartment building could each get a check for about $17,000 to help them get back on their feet:
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/36692839.html

Archway Cookies, forced into bankruptcy by bad management, and its employees screwed over royally in the process, bought by another company that not only offered to rehire the former employees at their same wage, but also issued every one of them a $1500 VISA gift card to get them through the holidays after they'd lost a few weeks' wages due to the shut-down:
http://blondieandbrownie.blogspot.com/2008/12/there-is-santa-archway-cookies-returns.html
http://www.yumsugar.com/2622182
(and before that happened: http://minnieapolis.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/10/1978456-archway-cookies-business-crumbles-into-chapter-11-creative-bookkeeping-at-fault)

Those people who gave that money, and offered those jobs and gave what amounted to pre-job bonuses, didn't have to do that. But they were moved to because of the season, because this is the time when people benefit the most from knowing they're not all alone out there, that someone else wishes them well.

That's what characters like Santa represent. That caring about other people's happiness and that urge to fulfill it, even if only a little.

I'm not a Christian, and technically, Christmas is not my holiday. But my festival season stretches from the solstice to the new year, and I'm happy to honor all the holidays that fall around the same time. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are a big part of that in my life. And since I'm an American, I am happy to adopt that peculiarly American, non-denominational, pop-culturized Santa Claus as the figure of the season's "jolly old elf" who brings that sharing and giving magic to everyone, who reminds us of it when maybe we need reminding, and who personifies on the outside how we feel on the inside.

And if there's anyone out there who thinks that magic is a lie, or who thinks that's not worth making up fairy tales about so that little kids will remember it, or who thinks it's better to tell children that other people do tell stories about Santa only to assuage their own selfish guilt feelings, then I feel sorry for those people. I seriously do.

I don't have a problem with the fictional fairy tale Santa. I do have a problem with telling your kids that he is physically real and physically visits your house.

I don't have a problem with the movie Alien. I do have a problem with telling your kids that the face sucking aliens live in their closet and will come out and kill them if they don't make their bed.

Fiction is fiction. Telling your kids something that isn't true and presenting it as truth is lying.

I don't have a problem with the fictional fairy tale Santa. I do have a problem with telling your kids that he is physically real and physically visits your house.

I don't have a problem with the movie Alien. I do have a problem with telling your kids that the face sucking aliens live in their closet and will come out and kill them if they don't make their bed.

Fiction is fiction. Telling your kids something that isn't true and presenting it as truth is lying.

I like Pratchett's view of the whole thing:

Death: Humans need fantasy to *be* human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.
Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
Susan: So we can believe the big ones?
Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing.
Susan: They're not the same at all.
Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged.
Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?
Death: You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?

I like Pratchett's view of the whole thing:

Fine. My kids are ruined for life. I suppose I should indoctrinate them into the whole God thing too right?

I like Pratchett's view of the whole thing:

It may be amusing, it may posture at wisdom, but it's wrong.

Justice and mercy aren't statements about the nature of the universe at all. They are not "myths" however rarely they may actually be encountered. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like are.

It may be amusing, it may posture at wisdom, but it's wrong.

Justice and mercy aren't statements about the nature of the universe at all. They are not "myths" however rarely they may actually be encountered. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like are.

You might enjoy Payback by Margaret Atwood, completely different to what one would expect from her but extraordinarily interesting.

Fine. My kids are ruined for life. I suppose I should indoctrinate them into the whole God thing too right?

I don't claim to be the font of all knowledge on how to raise children, I just think that a little fantasy and wonder in the life of a child is a good thing.

It may be amusing, it may posture at wisdom, but it's wrong.

Justice and mercy aren't statements about the nature of the universe at all. They are not "myths" however rarely they may actually be encountered. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like are.

Of course they are "myths".

Just like any human construct.

I don't claim to be the font of all knowledge on how to raise children, I just think that a little fantasy and wonder in the life of a child is a good thing.

Fantasy and wonder do not have to involve me outright lying to them. I don't need to construct lies for my kids to find wonder in the world. I don't have to present things as true when they are not for my kids to engage in fantasy.

Do you have no fantasy and wonder in your life?

Fantasy and wonder do not have to involve me outright lying to them. I don't need to construct lies for my kids to find wonder in the world. I don't have to present things as true when they are not for my kids to engage in fantasy.

Do you have no fantasy and wonder in your life?

Of course I do, then again I believe in Father Christmas.

You don't need myths and fantasy to have wonder in life. There are wonders all around us, if we only seek to find them and appreciate them for what they are.

My daughter seems to have developed a vague concept of Santa Claus on her own thanks to oversaturated propaganda. I am not going out of my way to sustain the myth for her, though, because it feels too much like lying. When she gets old enough to understand I'll explain the whole backstory of Santa to her and how his concept helps make the holiday more magical for everyone. I'm not gonna keep stringing her along as far as possible just so her childhood isn't ruined--it won't be, and anyway, people need to learn how to invoke their own sense of the magical and special, I think.

It may be amusing, it may posture at wisdom, but it's wrong.

Justice and mercy aren't statements about the nature of the universe at all. They are not "myths" however rarely they may actually be encountered. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like are.

Yes, justice and mercy ARE statements about the nature of the universe. Unless a God actually exists (and I'm open to that possibility), they are human cultural constructs. If you think otherwise, ask yourself why good as well as bad people are swept away in natural disasters. There's no justice in a good person being randomly destroyed by something beyond their control. No mercy there either.

If a God exists then these things do happen for a reason and are just and He knows what's going on even when we don't. If He doesn't exist then the gears of the Universe grind on whether we want them to or not--there isn't a thing we can do to alter natural law and things are going to happen that aren't fair and don't make sense.

That's all Pratchett was trying to say.

My daughter seems to have developed a vague concept of Santa Claus on her own thanks to oversaturated propaganda. I am not going out of my way to sustain the myth for her, though, because it feels too much like lying. When she gets old enough to understand I'll explain the whole backstory of Santa to her and how his concept helps make the holiday more magical for everyone. I'm not gonna keep stringing her along as far as possible just so her childhood isn't ruined--it won't be, and anyway, people need to learn how to invoke their own sense of the magical and special, I think.

Agreed. Let her run with it as long as she wants, but be honest when she's ready.

I like Pratchett's view of the whole thing:
I agree with Pratchett.

Fine. My kids are ruined for life. I suppose I should indoctrinate them into the whole God thing too right?
A false dichotomy and also a petulant, snitty little remark slightly tinged with a suggested insult.

It may be amusing, it may posture at wisdom, but it's wrong.

Justice and mercy aren't statements about the nature of the universe at all. They are not "myths" however rarely they may actually be encountered. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like are.
It seems you just don't know what a myth is.

Or is it that you DO believe that what I said Santa Claus personifies and represents is a lie -- that there is no such thing as fellow feeling, good will, or an urge to facilitate the happiness of others that human beings may encounter in the natural world, in their real dealings with other people?

Because it is my position that those things are just as "real" as justice and mercy and liberty, etc. But if you think they are not real in that way and thus, we should not let little kids learn about them or experience them through the art form of stories and playacting, then kindly explain the difference between what I described and a construct like "justice."

You don't need myths and fantasy to have wonder in life. There are wonders all around us, if we only seek to find them and appreciate them for what they are.Man, hike the Appalachian Trail during the spring or fall. Natural wonder indeed. I have yet to do anything that tops that experience. (Not the entire thing, of course. That requires months and months of time.)

A false dichotomy and also a petulant, snitty little remark slightly tinged with a suggested insult.

Well, you know, if it means they'll never have goodwill towards others or understand mercy or believe in justice or have an imagination.....seems like a pretty damned future.

Well, you know, if it means they'll never have goodwill towards others or understand mercy or believe in justice or have an imagination.....seems like a pretty damned future.
Like I said, a false dichotomy. Believe in Santa or be doomed are not the only available choices in life. Also, I was criticizing your statements, not predicting the future. You blowing up my comments into some grandiose condemnation of your children's future is the petulant part of how you delivered the false dichotomy.

I'm sorry if it annoys you, but I am not going back down on my defense of this particular myth. I believe there is great value in Santa Claus, and if children will pass through a period of their lives when they think the stories are literally true before they mature to a level where they understand that only the meaning of the stories is true, but that is the most important part of them, then I fail to see a problem with that.

there isnt a problem with it as long as its handled the right way.

the also isnt a problem with not having santa.

consistency and integrity are far more important in child raising.

Ugh, people.

My culture is full of cultural heroes who couldn't have possibly accomplished what we claim they did. Full of myths that are more educational than factual. Do kids believe these things, literally when they are first told? Of course they do, because children go through various developmental stages that open them up to wonder and myth. I know it's cool to think your own kids are geniuses and therefore 'skip' such 'infantile' stages, but I honestly think that such skipping isn't actually doing anyone any good. It isn't infantile really, it's wonderous. I wish I had such an ability to suspend belief and really see the core of the tale, the essence of the story. We lose that as we 'mature' and I don't think it's particularly admirable.

I appreciate the concept of not lying to your children. But what I appreciate MORE is the lesson of 'this is truth, this is wonder'. My kids know that at any time they can lower the veil and ask me 'is that true' and I will answer honestly and clearly. Most often, they don't ask, because they enjoy the myth. It sparks their imaginations in ways I've forgotten. If anything, I'm envious of them.

It's not indoctrination if you do it right. And if you have to ask what 'right' is, you're doing it wrong.

We lose that as we 'mature' and I don't think it's particularly admirable.Should I be concerned? I haven't lost that, yet.

Should I be concerned? I haven't lost that, yet.

Well I haven't lost it entirely either...but I know that it's pretty diminished compared to the wonder I used to have.

I'd hate to lose it entirely. I'm not sure what point life would have then.

Ugh, people.

My culture is full of cultural heroes who couldn't have possibly accomplished what we claim they did. Full of myths that are more educational than factual. Do kids believe these things, literally when they are first told? Of course they do, because children go through various developmental stages that open them up to wonder and myth. I know it's cool to think your own kids are geniuses and therefore 'skip' such 'infantile' stages, but I honestly think that such skipping isn't actually doing anyone any good. It isn't infantile really, it's wonderous. I wish I had such an ability to suspend belief and really see the core of the tale, the essence of the story. We lose that as we 'mature' and I don't think it's particularly admirable.

I appreciate the concept of not lying to your children. But what I appreciate MORE is the lesson of 'this is truth, this is wonder'. My kids know that at any time they can lower the veil and ask me 'is that true' and I will answer honestly and clearly. Most often, they don't ask, because they enjoy the myth. It sparks their imaginations in ways I've forgotten. If anything, I'm envious of them.

It's not indoctrination if you do it right. And if you have to ask what 'right' is, you're doing it wrong.
^^This. Exactly.

This is what I meant when I said that fiction and lie are two different things.

Well I haven't lost it entirely either...but I know that it's pretty diminished compared to the wonder I used to have.Cynicism?

I'd hate to lose it entirely. I'm not sure what point life would have then.I have no idea. Maybe a little defiance/human stubbornness before the inevitable end?

Well I haven't lost it entirely either...but I know that it's pretty diminished compared to the wonder I used to have.

I'd hate to lose it entirely. I'm not sure what point life would have then.
Same here. But while I may not be able to lose myself in the story so completely anymore, what I gained from it is what makes me an artist -- one of those people whose job it is to find culturally accessible ways to express things like what I've been talking about in a way that people will be able to feel them, not just talk about them. It's also made me, at least a little I hope, one of those people who "dream of what never was and ask, 'why not'?"

It also made me able from a very young age to tell the difference between fiction and lie, and to know that good fiction is "real" in a sense, and it should be believed, absolutely. Even though it's not factual. Facts are not what is true about it.

Facts are not what is true about it.

Amen, mama.

It's also made me, at least a little I hope, one of those people who "dream of what never was and ask, 'why not'?"I prefer to be one of the ones who does, and then later ask "Why did I do that?". But I see your point.

Facts are not what is true about itWisdom, I see it, on NSG. Am I dreaming?

I prefer to be one of the ones who does, and then later ask "Why did I do that?". But I see your point.

Wisdom, I see it, on NSG. Am I dreaming?
Well, they say life is a dream. ;)

Well, they say life is a dream. ;)Both bitter and sweet(With a lot of other random flavors mixed in.), eh?

Both bitter and sweet(With a lot of other random flavors mixed in.), eh?
Indeed. The most vivid and entertaining dream I've ever had. :D

Indeed. The most vivid and entertaining dream I've ever had. :DAnd you never know when it's going to end, so, you might as well enjoy the hell out of it, yeah? :p

Ugh, people.

My culture is full of cultural heroes who couldn't have possibly accomplished what we claim they did. Full of myths that are more educational than factual. Do kids believe these things, literally when they are first told? Of course they do, because children go through various developmental stages that open them up to wonder and myth. I know it's cool to think your own kids are geniuses and therefore 'skip' such 'infantile' stages, but I honestly think that such skipping isn't actually doing anyone any good. It isn't infantile really, it's wonderous. I wish I had such an ability to suspend belief and really see the core of the tale, the essence of the story. We lose that as we 'mature' and I don't think it's particularly admirable.

I appreciate the concept of not lying to your children. But what I appreciate MORE is the lesson of 'this is truth, this is wonder'. My kids know that at any time they can lower the veil and ask me 'is that true' and I will answer honestly and clearly. Most often, they don't ask, because they enjoy the myth. It sparks their imaginations in ways I've forgotten. If anything, I'm envious of them.

It's not indoctrination if you do it right. And if you have to ask what 'right' is, you're doing it wrong.
And when my kids asked me "is this true?" I told them the truth. So, what's the problem again?

I already said a few times I don't have a problem with the story of Santa. My kids know all about the story of Santa. They just know it's a story.

And when my kids asked me "is this true?" I told them the truth. So, what's the problem again? I know you like to feel persecuted...but you don't really have the right. Sorry. Your kids are not mine. Their needs are not the needs of my children. Never did I suggest that you pushed 'truth over fantasy' on them.

I already said a few times I don't have a problem with the story of Santa. My kids know all about the story of Santa. They just know it's a story.
Good for you. I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

Good for you. I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

Because I'm the only one in this thread who told their kids the truth, I wasn't sure who you were on your soapbox yelling to. I'm the only one who disagrees with the OP.

If you're just up there shouting for no reason and to nobody, then pardon me.

Because I'm the only one in this thread who told their kids the truth, I wasn't sure who you were on your soapbox yelling to. I'm the only one who disagrees with the OP.

If you're just up there shouting for no reason and to nobody, then pardon me.I wish to learn how to shout on teh Interwebs. Will someone teach me?

I wish to learn how to shout on teh Interwebs. Will someone teach me?

You can't do it if you have a penis. It's a girls on the net skill only.

I wish to learn how to shout on teh Interwebs. Will someone teach me?

YOU USE CAPITALS... Really text can work too...
:p

You can't do it if you have a penis. It's a girls on the net skill only.Not even with a...soapbox?
http://antibias.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/500soapbox-pic.jpg

Because I'm the only one in this thread who told their kids the truth, I wasn't sure who you were on your soapbox yelling to. I'm the only one who disagrees with the OP.

If you're just up there shouting for no reason and to nobody, then pardon me.

Actually if you need to know, I'm thinking of the best babysitter my kids ever had. An intensely religious woman with four boys of her own who tended to five other children while her kids were at school, baking fresh bread in the morning and squeezing fresh juice in the afternoon. The most insane, and joyful woman I've ever met.

Who was also very LDS, and forbade her children the myth of Santa Claus. Could her children have enjoyed and grown with such a myth? Sure. My kids aren't stunted, neither was I, or any number of kids who grew up with such a myth. Did her kids go insane and start abusing animals? No. But they were sad. Sure, they liked being 'in on the secret', that's a bonus. But the eldest told me one day that he wished he'd had a chance to believe it first.

I believed. And my parents broke it to me a little too early. I didn't really know at that point. I'm glad they were honest, but I could have done with just another year of 'make believe'. It wasn't essential mind you, it was simply because at that age, I could.


But sorry to detract...yes hon, you're the only different one. Ever.
if your son asks you point blank whether or not santa exists you must NEVER say "yes".

I said complicit. Several factors are to blame. And yes I agree that some Christian groups bear a considerable amount of blame. But the competitive "spirit" of most people (as in I got you a better gift than he did) has been exacerbated by the Santa myth - I mean, who has the magical shop that spews toys on command - Santa. Who can get you exactly the gift you want - Santa. If you don't get exactly the gift you want, then Santa must hate you - so the parents, in order to maintain the brat's self esteem go out and nearly kill themselves and their budget looking for the limited edition top dollar gift that will prove that the kid isn't hated by Santa.

Of course, the real blame goes to the parents who will put themselves in debt for years in order to keep the kids from being disappointed by Santa.

*shrug*

I'm half Jewish...the question never came up...we just never had "santa" in the traditional sense. We still celebrated Christmas, and it is still one of my favorite holidays...not because of Santa and the presents, but because people are nicer. More giving, more understanding. The world is cleaner. There's snow and lights. It's a chance to say "thanks" to the people you love.

You don't need Santa for any of that.

YOU USE CAPITALS... Really text can work too...
:pThat's not shouting. That's just adding emphasis. ...Wait, isn't that the whole point of shouting?
And now I am a confused clam. Ignore me. *waves hand*

And when my kids asked me "is this true?" I told them the truth. So, what's the problem again?

I already said a few times I don't have a problem with the story of Santa. My kids know all about the story of Santa. They just know it's a story.

Well, my problem is this opinion you seem to have where you are so high and mighty and so selfless because you told your kids the truth.

My problem is this bitchy little remark about how parents who dont do the same thing you do are filthy liars who just want to make themselves feel good.

Once again, Smunkee's parenting style is not the end all be all.

Youre snarky little responses that youre giving people who disagree with your all knowing parenting style (that will produce the future Übermensch too, Im sure) is also tiresome.

Because I'm the only one in this thread who told their kids the truth

Yes, you are. And your kids are superior to everyone else's kids for it too. Oh, and theyre also superior to us, because our parents were all filthy liars who told us lies and stunted our development for their own amusement.


:rolleyes:

*snip*

They both "play" the Santa thing around this time of year in a *wink wink* kind of way. They'll ask me to "forward this email" to Santa and then write at the bottom (we mean Daddy).

They don't "out" the truth to other kids, but will not play along with adults.

We did the same thing with all the other pretend characters from childhood. Daddy is the tooth fairy, I am the Easter bunny, and so on.

The "tooth fairy" leaves money under their pillows, but if he forgets they know to remind my husband.

The "Easter bunny" brings them candy, they make sure I know what kind they like.

So wait -- you're all about the responsibility of truth, but you're rewarding them (in the guise of the tooth fairy) for doing something (shedding deciduous teeth) that they cannot avoid doing? You've rewarded them for something that's not an achievement. That's not lying, but it's close enough to make your pronouncements on truth a bit disingenuous.

Are all parents so defensive about their kids?

And a child believes with all of his or her heart to the point where it might as well be real. I've seen it, it's one of the reasons I do keep putting on the suit every year.

Besides, lies to children employed to teach complex concepts have been used since man first told stories, we're still telling them now. We even have lies to adults and we all believe them, or at least act like we believe them to the point where it makes little to no difference.


What lie? He'll discover the more complex truth in his own time, whatever that is.

Joseph Cambell would agree, were he alive.

You know, not that long ago, Christmas was low key, like Thanksgiving. It was a family gathering involving Church, a good meal with family and close friends, small, thoughtful gifts exchanged between said family and friends, Christmas songs, a small tree and the Bob Hope Christmas Special. This whole business of Black Friday, Santa Claus, competitive gift giving and maxing out credit cards just wasn't important. Now it is, and Christmas is much less pleasant and special - and the whole Santa myth is complicit in that.

No it isn't. The modern, media-driven interpretation of the Santa myth is complicit, not Santa himself. Keeping up with the Joneses wasn't Santa's idea, it was Madison Avenue's. Suburban sprawl and its overflow into culture as a whole led to statements like "I'm just trying to give my kids a good Christmas" made by people indebting themselves over their heads. They should have been laying a needed dose of reality on their kids about finances, saying something along the lines of "we're not going to be able to get you many things at all, but Santa will come through" -- thus preserving the valuable myth while at the same time setting up the Christmas spirit as a tangible thing even when the persona of Santa is no longer needed. Kinda like kids outgrowing imaginary friends or security blankets.

We're very glad it's not up to you then. I can see where you're coming from, cause little children can annoy me too, but seriously, the hating on them does not MAKE SENSE. Maybe it's just my personal belief, but you don't hate people like that unless they have raped your dog or caused you serious psychological damage (and yes, there have been people, but I can't even bother myself to let them irk me anymore)

I saw no hate. Why or how did you? I think you seeing hate in a reasoned explanation of someone's feelings about something says far more about you than anyone you choose to pillory.

*snip*

You know what? I'm going to amend my statement. Maybe it's not children I detest. Maybe it's the adults who are always hanging around them, getting all defensive and preachy if anyone else doesn't act they're just hopelessly in love with their precious little angels while forcing me to stand by helpless to stop them stunting the kids' growth with shitty food, restricted movement, overly regimented time, and idiotic entertainments.

Agreed, completely.

I can see where you're coming from, but you're being more than a little ridiculous, and you know it. You're lumping all children under some vague view you have of society, and it's really rather disturbing, especially given how you constantly argue about how such groupings, such broad-brushing is seriously harmful.

Swing and a miss. I'm surprised at you.

But, hey, that's what I get for assuming there was at least ONE decent person on NSG...

Laying the melodrama on a bit thick, aren't you?

Well, fucking excuse me then. Yes, I was overly harsh. Yes, I read you wrong. But you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt now are you? I respect you, but it's perfectly all right to not give me the same treatment. I honestly expressed a personal feeling too, and you fucking chewed me out for it. I realize you do this to everyone you argue with, and you do have some cogent points. You're still an asshole. Well, I'm off. Merry fucking Christmas!

Thank you for invalidating everything you had to say. Makes the job of figuring out who the douchebags are that much easier.

Well, yes, as I said, she does have some points. But there's a difference between making points about children not being raised properly (which, let's face it, they're often not) and making a gross generalization about all children being automatically horrible and such just because SOME aren't necessarily raised to her standards.

Again, you surprise me. Where did Muravyets say that all children were horrible? It's easy for you to lash out when you falsely demonize your target. Where is this coming from?

It's that gross generalization that I'm reacting to, because I kinda had the impression that Muravyets doesn't make gross generalizations.

Go with that impression, 'cause she didn't.

So I was thinking more about this whole Santa thing and especially about the attitude that the story is a lie (rather than a fiction, a story that's about something).

It occurs to me that, although Santa Claus is based on a Christian character -- the historical person of St. Nicholas -- the character's function in the holiday is one that is common among many non/pre-Christian mid-winter festival traditions as well. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are essential parts of many traditions' festival observances, and are almost always accompanied by some kind of spirit that facilitates that, whether it is a saint, or a fairy tale character like the Italian La Bufana, or ghosts, or angels, or the fairy folk. And what's the point of it?

The point is connection and sharing. Giving, sharing with both those we know and with strangers (representing the spirits) is kind of the whole point of these holidays.

The act of giving a gift, both symbolically and literally, is the act of creating happiness. Of putting out happiness into the world around you. In the middle of winter, when it's dark and cold and difficult to live, these small, random acts of sharing and connecting are the most powerful message of hope, the most powerful boost to happiness you can get.

And the wish fulfillment magic of it -- the part that characters like Santa play -- is that the gift is going to be something you really need. Something that's going to get you through that cold, dark, hard spot to a warmer, brighter time. Even if it all it is, is the happiness that comes from the gift, that happiness is a needed thing in the world.

And sometimes, it's not just that happy feeling. Sometimes it really is the fulfillment of a wish when you need it most, maybe when you hadn't even formed the wish yet.

We saw two examples of that "magic" just this year:

An anonymous donor gave $1million dollars so that about 200 people completely wiped out by a fire that destroyed their apartment building could each get a check for about $17,000 to help them get back on their feet:
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/36692839.html

Archway Cookies, forced into bankruptcy by bad management, and its employees screwed over royally in the process, bought by another company that not only offered to rehire the former employees at their same wage, but also issued every one of them a $1500 VISA gift card to get them through the holidays after they'd lost a few weeks' wages due to the shut-down:
http://blondieandbrownie.blogspot.com/2008/12/there-is-santa-archway-cookies-returns.html
http://www.yumsugar.com/2622182
(and before that happened: http://minnieapolis.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/10/1978456-archway-cookies-business-crumbles-into-chapter-11-creative-bookkeeping-at-fault)

Those people who gave that money, and offered those jobs and gave what amounted to pre-job bonuses, didn't have to do that. But they were moved to because of the season, because this is the time when people benefit the most from knowing they're not all alone out there, that someone else wishes them well.

That's what characters like Santa represent. That caring about other people's happiness and that urge to fulfill it, even if only a little.

I'm not a Christian, and technically, Christmas is not my holiday. But my festival season stretches from the solstice to the new year, and I'm happy to honor all the holidays that fall around the same time. Gift giving and wish fulfillment are a big part of that in my life. And since I'm an American, I am happy to adopt that peculiarly American, non-denominational, pop-culturized Santa Claus as the figure of the season's "jolly old elf" who brings that sharing and giving magic to everyone, who reminds us of it when maybe we need reminding, and who personifies on the outside how we feel on the inside.

And if there's anyone out there who thinks that magic is a lie, or who thinks that's not worth making up fairy tales about so that little kids will remember it, or who thinks it's better to tell children that other people do tell stories about Santa only to assuage their own selfish guilt feelings, then I feel sorry for those people. I seriously do.

GOD BLESS US, EVERY ONE. *applauds* Seriously, Mv, that was terrific. I'm copying it into my HD file of "other's writing" to remind myself in later holiday seasons.

Like I said, a false dichotomy. Believe in Santa or be doomed are not the only available choices in life. Also, I was criticizing your statements, not predicting the future. You blowing up my comments into some grandiose condemnation of your children's future is the petulant part of how you delivered the false dichotomy.

I'm sorry if it annoys you, but I am not going back down on my defense of this particular myth. I believe there is great value in Santa Claus, and if children will pass through a period of their lives when they think the stories are literally true before they mature to a level where they understand that only the meaning of the stories is true, but that is the most important part of them, then I fail to see a problem with that.

Again, Joseph Campbell would be proud. Myths can be powerful, and should be used to our advantage in raising children.

I hope someone's pointed out that Saint Nick is also the patron saint of thieves, look at that bag of swag on his back, making up stories about elves in the north making such toys, lies, they're stolen and given to kids to make up for the thievery.

Also, think of Old Nick, the red suit, the hirsuteness, he's also linked with the Devil, satyrs and mischief.

Sin-eating, giving gifts as a salve to sins, he was punisher as much as giver, gifts are only for the good,

Yet we've forgotten so much,

These stories used to tell us something, as people have pointed out, in terms we could relate to and understand.

It's not surprising that in a culture of materialism, Father Christmas has been reduced to what one can get out of him.

And you never know when it's going to end, so, you might as well enjoy the hell out of it, yeah? :p
Damn straight. :D

Well, my problem is this opinion you seem to have where you are so high and mighty and so selfless because you told your kids the truth.

My problem is this bitchy little remark about how parents who dont do the same thing you do are filthy liars who just want to make themselves feel good.

Once again, Smunkee's parenting style is not the end all be all.

Youre snarky little responses that youre giving people who disagree with your all knowing parenting style (that will produce the future Übermensch too, Im sure) is also tiresome.



Yes, you are. And your kids are superior to everyone else's kids for it too. Oh, and theyre also superior to us, because our parents were all filthy liars who told us lies and stunted our development for their own amusement.


:rolleyes:

speaking of snarky!

within all this bullshit and static that smunkee keeps getting is an ignoring of her actual point.

her point is that when her children asked her if santa was real she said "no".

as every parent should. children ask that question when they have outgrown the santa story. (sometimes because another child has told them "the truth") at that point, supporting the reality of santa is a LIE. even if your 4 year old is in tears, devastated at being told "the truth" by a self-satisfied 9 year old, you can't put the cat back into the bag. its ruined and a parent must not lie to their child about it.

for saying that she told her child "no" to the question, she was told that her children must be insufferable. it was implied that she has shut her children off from a sense of wonder and magic. and then we are supposed to wonder why she is defensive.

there is nothing so special about the santa myth that anyone MUST have it as part of their family's christmas tradition. it has as many very bad aspects as it has good ones. it is used far more for marketing, greed and threats than it is for selflessness, magic and wonder. mr and mrs smunkee decided not to participate in it. it is no more wrong for them than it is for jewish parents.

and no matter if you use it or not there comes a day when your child asks you whether or not santa is real. on that day you say "no". as smunkee did. as all good parents do.

speaking of snarky!

within all this bullshit and static that smunkee keeps getting is an ignoring of her actual point.

her point is that when her children asked her if santa was real she said "no".

as every parent should. children ask that question when they have outgrown the santa story. (sometimes because another child has told them "the truth") at that point, supporting the reality of santa is a LIE. even if your 4 year old is in tears, devastated at being told "the truth" by a self-satisfied 9 year old, you can't put the cat back into the bag. its ruined and a parent must not lie to their child about it.

for saying that she told her child "no" to the question, she was told that her children must be insufferable. it was implied that she has shut her children off from a sense of wonder and magic. and then we are supposed to wonder why she is defensive.

there is nothing so special about the santa myth that anyone MUST have it as part of their family's christmas tradition. it has as many very bad aspects as it has good ones. it is used far more for marketing, greed and threats than it is for selflessness, magic and wonder. mr and mrs smunkee decided not to participate in it. it is no more wrong for them than it is for jewish parents.

and no matter if you use it or not there comes a day when your child asks you whether or not santa is real. on that day you say "no". as smunkee did. as all good parents do.
No, Ash, you are mistaken. I won't speak for anyone else who has been taking issue with Smunkee, but my problem with what she said here is NOT that she told her kids "the truth" about Santa. It is this, from page 1 of this thread:


My youngest asked in earnest last year if Santa was real or made up and I told her the truth again. When she asked why other parents lie to their children I told her it's because it makes the parents feel good about themselves and also so they can guilt their children into behaving.


She followed this by repeatedly characterizing the Santa story as a "lie" and people who engage their children's fantasies about Santa as liars.

She also repeatedly failed to address arguments about an alternative concept of truth in the Santa story. She attempted to get herself off the hook by saying that she was only calling people liars if they tell their kids there really is a physical person called Santa, but she has nevertheless continued to characterize the whole story in general as false, as a lie, without ever answering challenges about what she thinks about the aspects of the story that people like me and NERVUN and Neesika and others consider to be the actual "truth" of it.

Her attitude towards adults who do see a certain reality in the Santa story has been insulting and denigrating throughout, and yes, I suggested that children raised to (a) think that people who possibly believe in something the Smunkee family don't are liars and hypocrites, and (b) cop their mother's condescendingly dismissive attitude towards those adults in social situation, could be very hard to be around.

Apparently, Smunkee is so defensive of the perceived perfection of her little ones, that she fails to note that when someone criticizes children, they are really criticizing the behavior of the parent.

Damn straight. :DNow...just to find something to enjoy.
<.<
>.>

Apparently, Smunkee is so defensive of the perceived perfection of her little ones, that she fails to note that when someone criticizes children, they are really criticizing the behavior of the parent."My child can do no wrong" syndrome? Or whatever they call it.

Now...just to find something to enjoy.
<.<
>.>

"My child can do no wrong" syndrome? Or whatever they call it.
I often think "my child can do no wrong" is just an indirect way of saying "I can do no wrong and how dare you question anything I do?" After all, criticism of children is almost always a criticism of how the children are being raised, so what is really being questioned is the parent's decisions about what to teach or what to tolerate.

I often think "my child can do no wrong" is just an indirect way of saying "I can do no wrong and how dare you question anything I do?" After all, criticism of children is almost always a criticism of how the children are being raised, so what is really being questioned is the parent's decisions about what to teach or what to tolerate.I thought we were speaking earlier about how people lost the ability to disregard reality and immerse themselves in a fantasy world as they matured?

No, Ash, you are mistaken. I won't speak for anyone else who has been taking issue with Smunkee, but my problem with what she said here is NOT that she told her kids "the truth" about Santa. It is this, from page 1 of this thread:



She followed this by repeatedly characterizing the Santa story as a "lie" and people who engage their children's fantasies about Santa as liars.

She also repeatedly failed to address arguments about an alternative concept of truth in the Santa story. She attempted to get herself off the hook by saying that she was only calling people liars if they tell their kids there really is a physical person called Santa, but she has nevertheless continued to characterize the whole story in general as false, as a lie, without ever answering challenges about what she thinks about the aspects of the story that people like me and NERVUN and Neesika and others consider to be the actual "truth" of it.

Her attitude towards adults who do see a certain reality in the Santa story has been insulting and denigrating throughout, and yes, I suggested that children raised to (a) think that people who possibly believe in something the Smunkee family don't are liars and hypocrites, and (b) cop their mother's condescendingly dismissive attitude towards those adults in social situation, could be very hard to be around.

Apparently, Smunkee is so defensive of the perceived perfection of her little ones, that she fails to note that when someone criticizes children, they are really criticizing the behavior of the parent.
you may think that that is what you did but this was your response to her first post (that you quoted some of)

Your children must be insufferable for other adults to be around. Of course, I loathe children in general, but I especially loathe children who think they have inside adult knowledge about things. They always presume to correct adults they don't know about off-hand remarks, and their parents smile at you like you're supposed to be impressed at how clever they are.

You may tell kids the truth about Santa. I'm usually the one who tells them that it is not their place to correct their elders.

But then, as I said, I don't like kids. Somehow, though, I still don't see that it's a problem for them to enjoy a little fantasy once a year.

when she said nothing about her children correcting adults or being in anyway obnoxious around strangers. and the "parents who smile" seems to me to be a suggestion that she IS that kind of parent.

what she did say was that when adults do the santa thing they dont go along with it. they wont pretend to believe in something they dont believe in. you imagine that they are smug little brats who delight in making snarky "im too old to believe in such childish nonsense" replies to adults who are only trying to be nice. she didnt say that and your projection of it might put anyone on the defensive.

youll note that in her post that you quoted she did not tell her children that santa is just a story until they asked.

youll also note that the "why do children lie to their kids?" is about lying when kids ask about the reality of santa and receive a lie in response. at THAT point it is all about the parents feelings about santa. she could have put it in a nicer light but *shrug* i see no particular harm in being ungracious about it.

why should she sign onto the notion that santa is a great myth when she doesnt find it to be one? so what if there is an alternate point of view about santa? she doesnt share it and its potential value is not her point.

the original question was about how parents deal with the santa thing and she answered it to immediate attack. there is no more wrong in her family's disregard of santa than there is of the family whose father climbs up on the roof to make reindeer noises. you all seem to make a much bigger deal of that than it deserves.

you dont think that smunkee knows that you are dissing her more than her kids?

you may think that that is what you did but this was your response to her first post (that you quoted some of)



when she said nothing about her children correcting adults or being in anyway obnoxious around strangers. and the "parents who smile" seems to me to be a suggestion that she IS that kind of parent.

what she did say was that when adults do the santa thing they dont go along with it. they wont pretend to believe in something they dont believe in. you imagine that they are smug little brats who delight in making snarky "im too old to believe in such childish nonsense" replies to adults who are only trying to be nice. she didnt say that and your projection of it might put anyone on the defensive.

youll note that in her post that you quoted she did not tell her children that santa is just a story until they asked.

youll also note that the "why do children lie to their kids?" is about lying when kids ask about the reality of santa and receive a lie in response. at THAT point it is all about the parents feelings about santa. she could have put it in a nicer light but *shrug* i see no particular harm in being ungracious about it.

why should she sign onto the notion that santa is a great myth when she doesnt find it to be one? so what if there is an alternate point of view about santa? she doesnt share it and its potential value is not her point.

the original question was about how parents deal with the santa thing and she answered it to immediate attack. there is no more wrong in her family's disregard of santa than there is of the family whose father climbs up on the roof to make reindeer noises. you all seem to make a much bigger deal of that than it deserves.
If you wish to give such a charitable interpretation to her words, you may do so. I disagree and stand by my interpretation that the comment I quoted belies a judgmental and prejudiced attitude. That is my interpretation of her words, based merely on their basic meanings. My personal opinion derived from that is that telling that sort of thing to children -- you know, in lieu of saying something non-judgmental like "they tell a story to their kids and their kids believe it, but I'm sure they'll figure out what's true and what's not" or words to that effect -- is teaching children to think badly about others, even as you smile to their face. And I further stand by my personal opinion that people like that are insufferable, even if they are just kids.

I normally have no disagreement with Smunkee about anything, but that one comment is beyond the pale, as far as I'm concerned.

you dont think that smunkee knows that you are dissing her more than her kids?
I'm not "dissing" her. I'm criticizing something she said. And I'm sure she does know it.

I thought we were speaking earlier about how people lost the ability to disregard reality and immerse themselves in a fantasy world as they matured?
Oh, we all have our little fantasies. :p

Oh, we all have our little fantasies. :pSome NSG posters (You, Neesike, LG, VKZ, and many, many others.) make me afraid of getting older. o_0; /irrationality

Anyways...I really only wanted to say that. :D

*snip*

Of all the people on NS, I'm pretty sure Smunkeeville doesn't need anyone arguing her side for her.

Personally, I prefer to give kids as long as possible to believe in him. Let them have the magic of the holiday.

Santa gonna pay what he owe. -Riley Freeman

Santa gonna pay what he owe. -Riley Freeman