NationStates Jolt Archive

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?

I didn't even know about this.

Yeah, I havent heard any "culture warriors" railing on about the "War on Christmas" either.

Maybe their all too deep in their bottle over their sound beating on election night to notice that the holidays are approaching?

yep.. some political board started a thread about it HERE (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=577315).

But really, the thread itself doesn't take a side. it's just reminding people that there is this war out there.

Some of my friends joined a group about how they shouldn't be forced to say "happy holidays" and that they'd be wishing people a "merry christmas".

So I wished them a happy solstice.

Some of my friends joined a group about how they shouldn't be forced to say "happy holidays" and that they'd be wishing people a "merry christmas".

So I wished them a happy solstice.

See, I tend to wish people a happy whatever their holiday is. For example, if I know theyre Christian, I wish them a "Merry Christmas". If I know theyre Jewish, I wish them a "Happy Hannukah". If I know theyre Wiccan, I wish them a "Merry Yule". Atheists get a "Merry Xmas" (and I do pronounce the "x", most get a kick out of that). If I dont know what they are, I say "Happy Holidays".

But thats because Im a nice guy, and not a bigoted, self rightous dousche who thinks that my belief is the only belief worth recognizing.

How strange of me.


EDIT: I just noticed it could appear as though Im saying bad things about Dakini. Im not, dont worry ;)

I usually say "My holiday was December 10th, nobody wished me anything. Guess who's returning the favor?" :p

Bu, being serious, I say "Happy whatever". Literally.

O'Rielly is still blathering on about it, I just think fewer people care. You're seeing more parody of it than you are seeing 'actual' concern, I think people are starting to be embarrassed by it than actually fighting. There was the Toby Kieth song in the Colbert special (maybe Toby wasn't doing it ironically, but in context...), an American Dad episode recently. Generally speaking if you want to portray someone as an unreasonable fundy conservative, being concerned about the war on Christmas is the easiest well to go to.

The only war on Christmas was n the minds of the Christian fanatics. Most Atheists and Secularists just don't care about Christmas.

I didn't even know about this.
Bless you, my child :fluffle:

Do you want to know more? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_christmas)

Yeah, I havent heard any "culture warriors" railing on about the "War on Christmas" either.

Maybe their all too deep in their bottle over their sound beating on election night to notice that the holidays are approaching?

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. With the Obama victory, they may feel that the idea of "change" overshadows the petty "Christmas-struggle" of the past. Besides, bigger (and more real) problems have hit home recently...

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?

Maybe people don't care this year because they have more pressing matters like the state of our economy and whether or not they're going to have a job when the Holidays are over.

Maybe people don't care this year because they have more pressing matters like the state of our economy and whether or not they're going to have a job when the Holidays are over.

Clearly theyre not real Christians then, what with caring more about feeding their families then the fact that dirty, dirty non-Christians are wishing people something other than "Merry Christmas".

Maybe people don't care this year because they have more pressing matters like the state of our economy and whether or not they're going to have a job when the Holidays are over.

So in other words, some people living too comfortably and having too much time on their hands will imagine offences and see problems where there really aren't any...

Sounds about right.

Clearly theyre not real Christians then, what with caring more about feeding their families then the fact that dirty, dirty non-Christians are wishing people something other than "Merry Christmas".

The horror! Feeding their families when they could be quibbling over what to say to other people around this time! Why, next they'll be pushing for separation of church and state! :tongue:

*cocks gun*

There's a war out there and here you are blathering like fools!

i've still got my star and crescent winter festival tree topper. in your face, christmas!

*cocks gun*

There's a war out there and here you are blathering like fools!

Happy Holidays ;)

hence forth Christmas shall be named greed and deathmas.

I declared war on santa and preformed raids, does that count?

I declared war on santa and preformed raids, does that count?

Not unless you captured him and delivered him to Camp-Xray.

Any man who invadeds billoins of homes a year must be a terrorist. A few hours of water boarding will get the truth.

Christmas is a silly name. As our main festival of capitalism we should call it something like 'Superhappyspendalotmas'.

Not unless you captured him and delivered him to Camp-Xray.

Any man who invadeds billoins of homes a year must be a terrorist. A few hours of water boarding will get the truth.

nah, the fact that he goes into millions of homes then flies around without going through TSA each time makes him a terrorist.

I wonder why Chris Hanson never went after him. after all, he corrisponds to children, asking if they were naughty or nice, he has them provide treats and he brings them presents, and visits their home in the dead of night.

i've still got my star and crescent winter festival tree topper. in your face, christmas!

I knew that commies must be behind this dastardly war against christmas.

I declared war on santa and preformed raids, does that count?

Raids? Against Santas workshop? Dont you know thats Sovereign Canadian soil - err Ice. You shall rue the day you messed with Santa and his people... No Candy canes for you!

But you said you would be waging said war against Christmas yesterday...

Happy Festivus........for the rest of us

I always thought the whole idea was silly myself so Happy Winter Solstice everyone.

But you said you would be waging said war against Christmas yesterday...

Well, yeah. But that was on the eastern front :p

I shall hunt down some more presents tomorrow, btw...

I decided to launch my own special Atheist "War on Christmas" in this way: if someone wishes me 'Happy Holidays', I'll reply with 'Merry Christmas' and when I get a 'Merry Christmas', I reply with 'Happy Hanukkah' for no reason other than to be annoying. ;)

I decided to launch my own special Atheist "War on Christmas" in this way: if someone wishes me 'Happy Holidays', I'll reply with 'Merry Christmas' and when I get a 'Merry Christmas', I reply with 'Happy Hanukkah' for no reason other than to be annoying. ;)

...and if someone wishes you 'Happy Hanukkah' you respond 'Happy Kwanzaa', and if someone says 'Happy Kwanzaa' to you, you respond with 'Gesundheit! Excuse me? Happy whatnow? http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/html/emoticons/mellow.gif'

What, no wishing someone a blessed Yule? I'm sad. :(

I caught some flak at work the other day. I wished a customer, "Happy Holidays!" After they left, a coworker said, "You mean Merry Christmas!"
I responded, "You're right, I meant Merry Christmas. And Happy Chanukah and Happy Kwanzaa and Merry Soltice. It's just easier to say, 'Happy Holidays.'" And I've kept right on. /shrug

honestly i dont see why everyone overeacts about this so much- if someone said Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Chanukah to me id be like wutever, they just wished me a happy something i dont celebrate, that was nice of these ignorant people.

..as long as they dont say it like "this better be wut u celebrate"- but i never heard that until the whole christmas controversy thing started and people were expected not to say merry christmas.

can we start a campaign to "put the istma back in christmas"? it's the reason for the season, dontchaknow?

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?

I didn't even know about this.

Yeah, I havent heard any "culture warriors" railing on about the "War on Christmas" either.

Maybe their all too deep in their bottle over their sound beating on election night to notice that the holidays are approaching?

...or maybe no one wants or needs to get riled up over this?

...or maybe no one wants or needs to get riled up over this?

nobody ever needs to get riled up over all the conservative culture war bullshit they regularly get riled up about, so that can't have anything to do with the explanation. and the fact that drumming up random irrational outrage pretty much is all they got seems to undermine the not wanting idea. hell, i'm not likely to believe that they gave up because it was a stupid idea and they lost - they're still carrying a torch for creationism after all.

Some of my friends joined a group about how they shouldn't be forced to say "happy holidays" and that they'd be wishing people a "merry christmas".

So I wished them a happy solstice.

I usually go with "Merry Whatever". Gets the point across when I don't know who I'm dealing with.

See, I tend to wish people a happy whatever their holiday is. For example, if I know theyre Christian, I wish them a "Merry Christmas". If I know theyre Jewish, I wish them a "Happy Hannukah". If I know theyre Wiccan, I wish them a "Merry Yule". Atheists get a "Merry Xmas" (and I do pronounce the "x", most get a kick out of that). If I dont know what they are, I say "Happy Holidays".

But thats because Im a nice guy, and not a bigoted, self rightous dousche who thinks that my belief is the only belief worth recognizing.

How strange of me.

Excellent!

I caught some flak at work the other day. I wished a customer, "Happy Holidays!" After they left, a coworker said, "You mean Merry Christmas!"
I responded, "You're right, I meant Merry Christmas. And Happy Chanukah and Happy Kwanzaa and Merry Soltice. It's just easier to say, 'Happy Holidays.'" And I've kept right on. /shrug

MAJOR pet peeve -- someone trying to tell me what I "meant". I tend to look them straight in the eye, maintain my smile and say, evenly, but very deliberately and slowly:

No. I said "Happy Holidays", and that is precisely what I meant.

I wish I had the tenacious hold on calm that you had to say what you did. I'm not there yet. Be my guru?

EDIT: It's worse when I let off an expletive in an appropriate situation. For example, I swear a bit while playing 3-on-3 basketball because I suck, and my teammates insist on having me as their sub (fourth) during the tournament season. During a practice pick-up game against a friendly set of rivals, I blew a layup and (there were no young ears around) exclaimed "Jesus Christ". The other team's resident Christian scold said "you mean 'cheese and rice'." I looked him square in the eye and said, calmly, "I know what I meant, and I said it." It's especially galling because this guy, not five minutes later, is making jokes about homosexual acts like felching. It got a little tense when my own sense of self-righteousness defeated my sense of "let it go" decorum and said, "Gee, Tony, who would Jesus felch?" In retrospect, I'm not proud of that, but it was fun watching my teammates rupture their diaphragms trying not to laugh.

Someone once told me that my swearing made some faithful "stumble in their faith." I was stunned. I thought, "if me saying 'fuck' when I jam a finger on a hard chest pass makes anyone 'stumble in their faith', their faith has more wrong with it than mine, and I don't have much."

...or maybe no one wants or needs to get riled up over this?

Past Christmases make me doubt this.

I wish I had the tenacious hold on calm that you had to say what you did. I'm not there yet. Be my guru?


Giving them a swift punch in the throat is more effective (and fun) than being calm anyway;)

Giving them a swift punch in the throat is more effective (and fun) than being calm anyway;)

Possibly true, but A) I'm not a violent enough person, and B) I don't have ready access to a lawyer.

Possibly true, but A) I'm not a violent enough person, and B) I don't have ready access to a lawyer.

Just pretend to be one on NSG. That apperantly makes you one, just ask some of our posters.:p

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?

Must be the christmas armistice now.

Some of my friends joined a group about how they shouldn't be forced to say "happy holidays" and that they'd be wishing people a "merry christmas".

So I wished them a happy solstice.Who exactly is forcing them?

I knew that commies must be behind this dastardly war against christmas.



Raids? Against Santas workshop? Dont you know thats Sovereign Canadian soil - err Ice. You shall rue the day you messed with Santa and his people... No Candy canes for you!

Better give me those candy canes, because some of my friends are Fungi from Yuggoth.

To be honest, the reason why I don't think there has been such an issue is because there haven't been the "attacks" on Christmas that there might have been in past years.

To those immature gits that insist on trying to be PC and all that, stop. Christmas has been part of Western culture for far longer than Kwanzaa, or Yule, or all those other festivals. There is nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas, and insisting on saying all that other stuff just tells me that you are trying to be PC.

My signature says it all!

Raids? Against Santas workshop? Dont you know thats Sovereign Canadian soil - err Ice. You shall rue the day you messed with Santa and his people... No Candy canes for you!No, I don't, seeing as Santa's Workshop is in Finland (http://www.visitfinland.com/W5/index.nsf/(pages)/Finland_and_Santa_Claus).

To be honest, the reason why I don't think there has been such an issue is because there haven't been the "attacks" on Christmas that there might have been in past years.

To those immature gits that insist on trying to be PC and all that, stop. Christmas has been part of Western culture for far longer than Kwanzaa, or Yule, or all those other festivals. There is nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas, and insisting on saying all that other stuff just tells me that you are trying to be PC.I have yet to meet one of those people. "Christmas War refugees", on the other hand, I've met.

Yeah, I havent heard any "culture warriors" railing on about the "War on Christmas" either.

Maybe their all too deep in their bottle over their sound beating on election night to notice that the holidays are approaching?

Not to mention there would be some still celebrating that their man won and so haven't noticed it yet.

There is nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas, and insisting on saying all that other stuff just tells me that you are trying to be PC.

yeah, you bastards! What the hell is wrong with you all, acting like we shouldn't just assume someone's culture or personal beliefs. You act like there's 50 million people in this country who don't celebrate Christmas

What's wrong with you?

i've still got my star and crescent winter festival tree topper. in your face, christmas!

Yeah a day in the calendar is pissed at you. :rolleyes:

yeah, you bastards! What the hell is wrong with you all, acting like we shouldn't just assume someone's culture or personal beliefs. You act like there's 50 million people in this country who don't celebrate Christmas

What's wrong with you?

Happy Hanukkah Neo, shouldn't you be partying and all?

Happy Hanukkah Neo, shouldn't you be partying and all?

. . .I'm at work. hanukkah is a fairly minor holiday, celebrated mostly by children, and families with children. It's not a "gather from across the country" sort of holiday, it's a "yeah, here's some chocolate" sort of holiday. If it wasn't for its proximity to that other holiday, it wouldn't have developed this erronious reputation as sort of the "jewish christmas".

The fact that they both happen in winter and both involve some degree of gift exchanges doesn't make them comparable in importance. Hanukkah is a fairly unimportant jewish holiday in the scheme of them.

and it's worth noting that the whole "gift giving" on Hanukkah time is, itself, a modern evolution by families, mostly american ones, to have their own gift giving celebration. Don't think that Hanukkah is some sort of "jewish christmas", it's not. It's one of th least important holidays in the calender that's still publically recognized.

...and if someone wishes you 'Happy Hanukkah' you respond 'Happy Kwanzaa', and if someone says 'Happy Kwanzaa' to you, you respond with 'Gesundheit! Excuse me? Happy whatnow? http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/html/emoticons/mellow.gif'

Sounds about right. :D

. . .I'm at work. hanukkah is a fairly minor holiday, celebrated mostly by children, and families with children. It's not a "gather from across the country" sort of holiday, it's a "yeah, here's some chocolate" sort of holiday. If it wasn't for its proximity to that other holiday, it wouldn't have developed this erronious reputation as sort of the "jewish christmas".

The fact that they both happen in winter and both involve some degree of gift exchanges doesn't make them comparable in importance. Hanukkah is a fairly unimportant jewish holiday in the scheme of them.

and it's worth noting that the whole "gift giving" on Hanukkah time is, itself, a modern evolution by families, mostly american ones, to have their own gift giving celebration. Don't think that Hanukkah is some sort of "jewish christmas", it's not. It's one of th least important holidays in the calender that's still publically recognized.

Dude, I try to be friendly to you and you shoot me down. :)

But fair enough mate, thanks for the info. Certainly a bit more different to what the media made it out to be. Not that I believe everything the media says but you would think with stuff like that, they would have some idea. And by that other holiday do you mean Christmas? If so why not just say Christmas? Your point would have still gotten over to the same extent.

I have yet to meet one of those people. "Christmas War refugees", on the other hand, I've met.

Met what type of people?

Yeah a day in the calendar is pissed at you. :rolleyes:

actually, it has moved beyond pissed to begging for mercy

...or maybe no one wants or needs to get riled up over this?

Nobody ever needed to get riled up over this, and I don't understand why so many wanted to. But given the history of the last few years, I wondered if the issue was dead and gone or if I was just not hearing anything/blocking it out.

I'll be happy if the matter rests and is never mentioned again, yet another remnant of the small-mindedness we saw all too often during the Bush-years...

But given the history of the last few years, I wondered if the issue was dead and gone or if I was just not hearing anything/blocking it out.

the delightful racist fucktards at vdare seem to be keeping up the fight
http://www.vdare.com/piatak/081211_christmas.htm

To be honest, the reason why I don't think there has been such an issue is because there haven't been the "attacks" on Christmas that there might have been in past years.


Like?


To those immature gits that insist on trying to be PC and all that, stop. Christmas has been part of Western culture for far longer than Kwanzaa, or Yule, or all those other festivals. There is nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas, and insisting on saying all that other stuff just tells me that you are trying to be PC.

This is laughably false. But please continue, your antics amuse me.

A friend of mine was whining briefly about people saying "Happy Christmas" as opposed to "Merry Christmas". I figured he was being a dumbass, and told him as much.

The war on Christmas has taken a swing towards the infidels due to a bout of unseasonable warmth allowing for Atheist strike fighters to take off and repel the Flying Reindeer Squadron and bombard Christmas Tree installations. Presents of rebuilding materials for the trees have proved insufficient.

Santa save us....

I don't really see why anyone should get pissed by someone saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah", "Happy Kwanzaa", "Happy Holidays", or anything like that.

It's just wishing someone a happy day, a happy 8 days, or something like that.

I don't really see why anyone should get pissed by someone saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah", "Happy Kwanzaa", "Happy Holidays", or anything like that.

It's just wishing someone a happy day, a happy 8 days, or something like that.

There are some people who seem to enjoy having something to be pissed off about, so much so that they'll become infuriated if someone wishes them a "Happy [not what they celebrate]".

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?

No, but I am fortunate enough to live in Britain.

No, but I am fortunate enough not to live in Britain.

What?

The so-called "War" was mainly taking place in the U.S.

What?

The so-called "War" was mainly taking place in the U.S.

And the Daily Mail, but that got hit by a stray Bauble Bomb yesterday.

And the Daily Mail, but that got hit by a stray Bauble Bomb yesterday.

Hmmm...

From 2006, my response to the War on Christmas's email assault. First is the email sent with false outrage and bullshit to everyone, it seemed (I've seen it again, this year). Aside from being poorly crafted and logically bereft, it sucks. So I replied (the following poem).

Enjoy (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12060119&postcount=1)!

I find "Happy Holidays" pathetic. I say "Merry Christmas", unless I know someone to be Jewish, in which case I say "Happy Hanukkah". I have yet to encounter a Kwanzaa or Yule celebrant in real life.

If someone that I wish "Merry Christmas" to does not celebrate Christmas and corrects me, I apologise, say "Happy [Insert Holiday Here]", and go on as usual.

If someone that I wish "Merry Christmas" to does not celebrate Christmas, but does not see fit to correct me, then there is no problem, and I assume they are comfortable with being a festive minority. But then again, I wouldn't know if they were, and that's the beauty of it.

If a Jewish acquaintance (And I have many) bids me "Happy Hanukkah", I simply respond "You, too!". I don't really see the need to correct people, but I do not mind if they correct me.

Also, every non-Muslim Gentile (And even some Jews) that I know in "Real Life", if you will, celebrates Christmas, whether they are Christian, Secular, Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, or anything else. Non-Christians simply celebrate Christmas in a secular fashion.

What?

The so-called "War" was mainly taking place in the U.S.

Fucking hell! - I DO live in Britain; I just don't get enough sleep and sometimes forget where a sentence is going and reverse the meaning by accident.

Fucking hell! - I DO live in Britain; I just don't get enough sleep and sometimes forget where a sentence is going and reverse the meaning by accident.

It's fine.

This is laughably false. But please continue, your antics amuse me.

Laughably false? Was Yule, or Kwanzaa, or all these other festivals in the Western consciousness in the 1950s? NO

Back then, it was given that you celebrated Christmas on December 25. I am aware that Yule, et. al., may predate Christmas, however, a fuss hasn't been made until the politically correct age.

Back then, it was given that you celebrated Christmas on December 25.

No, it wasn't. It was ASSUMED that you did. Wrongly. Believe it or not, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics have been with America since the beginning. I twas never a "given" about anyone's beliefs.

People just assumed it was. And it's long past time they grew out of it.

Laughably false? Was Yule, or Kwanzaa, or all these other festivals in the Western consciousness in the 1950s? NO


BUWHAHAHA.

Yule was a western holiday before Christ allegidly existed.


Back then, it was given that you celebrated Christmas on December 25.

No, non-Christians have been in America forever. Our country was founded by them.

I am aware that Yule, et. al., may predate Christmas,

Are you?

however, a fuss hasn't been made until the politically correct age.

Im sure back then if you told someone "Merry Christmas!" and they didnt celebrate Christmas, they would tell you so.

The fact that society is more socially conscience is a good thing.

Keep it coming.

Can a black messianic Jew can celebrate whatever the hell he wants?

I find "Happy Holidays" pathetic. I say "Merry Christmas", unless I know someone to be Jewish, in which case I say "Happy Hanukkah". I have yet to encounter a Kwanzaa or Yule celebrant in real life.

Lots of solstice/Yule folks up here. I say what applies to me, and refuse to correct others for doing the same to me.

If someone that I wish "Merry Christmas" to does not celebrate Christmas and corrects me, I apologise, say "Happy [Insert Holiday Here]", and go on as usual.

I don't see the need to apologize. You went out of your way to wish someone well as part of a holiday YOU celebrate. If the person receiving the well-wishing doesn't celebrate the holiday, they can simply say "thank you". If they feel very insistent, they can say "thank you" and reply with a greeting based on their celebration. There should NEVER be a need to demand for an apology for wishing someone well. THAT's what's pathetic. "Oh, you wished me happiness, I AM OFFENDED!!!" Malarkey.

If someone that I wish "Merry Christmas" to does not celebrate Christmas, but does not see fit to correct me, then there is no problem, and I assume they are comfortable with being a festive minority. But then again, I wouldn't know if they were, and that's the beauty of it.

Exactly. What's the point of being ultra-sensitive about it? Doews self-righteousness fit into any holiday (besides perhaps Festivus)?

If a Jewish acquaintance (And I have many) bids me "Happy Hanukkah", I simply respond "You, too!". I don't really see the need to correct people, but I do not mind if they correct me.

I mind if they correct me, but in the spirit of the season, I let it go.

Also, every non-Muslim Gentile (And even some Jews) that I know in "Real Life", if you will, celebrates Christmas, whether they are Christian, Secular, Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, or anything else. Non-Christians simply celebrate Christmas in a secular fashion.

Bingo. It is a fun holiday, for the most part.

I find "Happy Holidays" pathetic

me too. learn to write lyrics, irving!

Back then, it was given that you celebrated Christmas on December 25.
Not in Scotland, and certain other places. Christmas wasn't a public holiday here till 1958, and was technically illegal for 400 years prior to that. Celebrating Christmas was seen as Papist blasphemy by many people in Protestant countries for many years.

So, try and learn some history before you spout nonsense.

In the spirit of Xmas:

A teacher gave her class of 11 year olds an assignment: To get their parent to tell them a story with a moral at the end of it. The next day the kids came back and one by one began to tell their stories.
Ashley said, 'My father's a farmer and we have a lot of egg-laying hens. One time we were taking our eggs to market in a basket on the front seat of the car when we hit a big bump in the road and all the eggs got broken.'

'What's the morale of that story?' asked the teacher.
'Don't put all your eggs in one basket!'
'Very good,' said the teacher.
Next little Sarah raised her hand and said, 'Our family are farmers
too. But we raise chickens for the meat market. One day we had a dozen eggs, but when they hatched we only got ten live chicks, and the moral to this story is,'Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.'

'That was a fine story Sarah.'

Michael, do you have a story to share?'
'Yes. My daddy told me this story about my Aunty Karen.
Aunty Karen was a flight engineer on a plane in the Gulf War and her plane got hit. She had to bail out over enemy territory and all she had was a bottle of whisky, a machine gun and a machete.
She drank the whiskey on the way down so it wouldn't break and then she landed right in the middle of 100 enemy troops.
She killed seventy of them with the machine gun until she ran out of bullets.
Then she killed twenty more with the machete until the blade broke.
And then she killed the last ten with her bare hands.'

'Good heavens,' said the horrified teacher, 'what kind of moral
did your daddy tell you from that horrible story?'



'Stay the f**k away from Aunty Karen when she's been
drinking.'

Eutrusca isn't here. Hence the thundering silence on the "War on Christmas" front.

I don't see the need to apologize. You went out of your way to wish someone well as part of a holiday YOU celebrate. If the person receiving the well-wishing doesn't celebrate the holiday, they can simply say "thank you". If they feel very insistent, they can say "thank you" and reply with a greeting based on their celebration. There should NEVER be a need to demand for an apology for wishing someone well. THAT's what's pathetic. "Oh, you wished me happiness, I AM OFFENDED!!!" Malarkey.

Here's the thing. It's not the intent that offends me, it's the presumption. I am not christian. A very large part of my identity as self is not christian. I may be agnostic in belief, but I consider myself jewish. It is an important part of my self identity, culturally, ethnically, and by family. To presume I must be christian make a very false assumption, and an assumption that is not merited. It feels almost like it trivializes an important part of myself.

To presume automatically that I must be christian is to assume something that I am very much not. That is what offends me, that my identity, my culture, my history and my family seem so inconsequential to some that the thought never occurs to them that I might not wish to be thought of as a christian. That to deny the existence of my identity as a jew with a knee jerk presumption that I celebrate christmas robs me, in some small part, of the sense that my culture and ethnicity is just as important as everyone elses. Are not my holidays worthy of equal respect? Am I not to be thought well of if I don't celebrate your holidays? Why must your well wishes be predicated on the assumption that I celebrate as you do?

Hey Neo! What are you doing for Christmas?


Yeah I know and Yom Tov to you too......

I hope you get lots of Chanukah prezzies!

http://defendchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/raisingthetree2.jpg

Is all Quiet on the Western Front? Have the guns been silenced?

I haven't heard anything about the so-called "War on Christmas" this year. And considering the noise level of previous years I'm wondering if I've just missed this year or if this sillyness is dying down.

So have anybody noticed anything?
Screw'em! WE*1 got the most perfect Christmas Tree*2 this year, our family's Kids*3 have achieved their goals - if there's gonna be a war about it, I've decided we*4 win this time around!

1 The Family. (Mine.)
2 The most perfect tree we've had in 32 years. [Full stop.]
3 My lil' sis and big bro' [That's her and me].
4 Us.

Here's the thing. It's not the intent that offends me, it's the presumption. I am not christian. A very large part of my identity as self is not christian. I may be agnostic in belief, but I consider myself jewish. It is an important part of my self identity, culturally, ethnically, and by family. To presume I must be christian make a very false assumption, and an assumption that is not merited. It feels almost like it trivializes an important part of myself.

To presume automatically that I must be christian is to assume something that I am very much not. That is what offends me, that my identity, my culture, my history and my family seem so inconsequential to some that the thought never occurs to them that I might not wish to be thought of as a christian. That to deny the existence of my identity as a jew with a knee jerk presumption that I celebrate christmas robs me, in some small part, of the sense that my culture and ethnicity is just as important as everyone elses. Are not my holidays worthy of equal respect? Am I not to be thought well of if I don't celebrate your holidays? Why must your well wishes be predicated on the assumption that I celebrate as you do?

Wishing you well in the spirit of a religious celebration does not presume you are of the same religious persuasion. It seems a bit reactionary to think so IMO. If anything, 'Merry Christmas' has become more seasonal than religious anyway, it has far less religious significance than say "peace be upon you".

If a Hindu wished me a happy Divali, or a Muslim a happy Ramadan, I'm not going to be offended because I don't share their beliefs. I am in fact happy to have been included in their well-wishing. I don't see how the intent to wish someone well in the spirit of your own beliefs belies any presumption of their beliefs.

Things have changed people. With as many Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Jains, Sikhs, Taoists, Traditionalists (Indians, feather not dot) and so forth, it's actually pretty asinine of anyone to be surprised when the whole "Merry Christmas" thing causes someone to pull a sour face. Do Muslims habitually wish you Happy Ramadan, assuming you're Muslim? Yeah, no. They might mention it, but not with that underlying assumption that you believe what they believe.

If a Hindu wished me a happy Divali, or a Muslim a happy Ramadan, I'm not going to be offended because I don't share their beliefs. I am in fact happy to have been included in their well-wishing. I don't see how the intent to wish someone well in the spirit of your own beliefs belies any presumption of their beliefs.

Bullshit.

It doesn't presume a shared belief generally when it's a non-Christian doing the 'well-wishing'...because in the US and Canada, non-Christians are still the minority (not counting those who are just generally unreligious). It doesn't make sense to assume everyone else is part of said minority language. Then again, it makes no sense to assume everyone is a part of the majority religion, but things on that side aren't actually about common sense.

Assuming Christianity is akin to assuming heterosexuality. It's commonplace, it's pervasive, and it's constantly justified by people who really don't want to change their habits.

Yeah, well, whatever. Merry Christmas, everyone!

Yeah, well, whatever. Merry Christmas, everyone!

And matching the spirit that was meant in, fuck you too! :p

Though I don't see why the Jews have to bitch since they run the world anyway. Can't they force everyone to say Happy Holidays instead?

Are not my holidays worthy of equal respect?

No.






;)

No, it wasn't. It was ASSUMED that you did. Wrongly. Believe it or not, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics have been with America since the beginning. I twas never a "given" about anyone's beliefs.

People just assumed it was. And it's long past time they grew out of it.

You forgot Pagans.

An American, an Englishman and an Australian arrive at the Pearly Gates on Christmas Day. St Peter welcomes them and says that they can enter Paradise if they can produce something from their pockets that evokes the spirit of Christmas.

The American gets out his cigarette lighter, lights it and says "The star of Bethlehem!"
So St Peter lets him in.
The Englishman gets out his car keys and rattles them - "Jingle Bells"
"Hmmm!" says St Peter, "Okay, you can go in."
The Aussie looks a little hesitant and then he pulls out a pair of women's underpants from his pocket.
St Peter stares in astonishment and asks,"What are they?"
"They're Carol's!"

Wishing you well in the spirit of a religious celebration does not presume you are of the same religious persuasion.

Wait, seriously? Merry christmas doesn't imply that the person you're saying it to celebrates christmas?

If you say so, personally, I believe otherwise.

It seems a bit reactionary to think so IMO. If anything, 'Merry Christmas' has become more seasonal than religious anyway, it has far less religious significance than say "peace be upon you".

I think partially that's the problem. I don't think it is a "secular" expression. I think it does have religious overtones. I think the reason most people don't realize and recognize those overtones is that this inherent presumption has become ingrained. It's one thing to say "I don't mind when my muslim friends say happy ramadan!" but how often does that happen to most people? You're not the ones who are constantly bombarded by the presumption that a fundamental part of your identity...doesn't exist.

You forgot Pagans.

Because Pagans havent been a large group in America until very recently (I am excluding traditional Native American beliefs for this statement).


We get it. Youre Pagan. No need to keep reminding us.

You forgot Pagans.

No, because Paganism in the sense you're using it (as in, excluding Native Americans) is actually Neopaganism and isn't actually that old in the US.

Edit: Don't do that KoL, you scare me.

You forgot Pagans.

mainly because pagans in the sense you're using it (as opposed to the general sense of non judeo christian faith) don't have a general history in this country, to a large extent. They've existed, sure, but they haven't been historically part of this country THAT much (which isn't to discount their existence or trivialize their faith, I was speaking from a historical perspective)

Bullshit.

It doesn't presume a shared belief generally when it's a non-Christian doing the 'well-wishing'...because in the US and Canada, non-Christians are still the minority (not counting those who are just generally unreligious). It doesn't make sense to assume everyone else is part of said minority language. Then again, it makes no sense to assume everyone is a part of the majority religion, but things on that side aren't actually about common sense.

Assuming Christianity is akin to assuming heterosexuality. It's commonplace, it's pervasive, and it's constantly justified by people who really don't want to change their habits.

Of course some people will presume, I'm saying that it's not necessarily the case by default.

It is as much a presumption on your part that someone is presuming you are of their persuasion, as is any presumption of theirs that you are. So why presume the situation that offends you?

I am only reasoning from my point of view though, which is don't presume anything :p And also that another's presumptions about me have no bearing whatsoever on me, especially if it's only in the context of a greeting.

No, because Paganism in the sense you're using it (as in, excluding Native Americans) is actually Neopaganism and isn't actually that old in the US.

Edit: Don't do that KoL, you scare me.

I is in your brainz, readin' your thoughtz.

mainly because pagans in the sense you're using it (as opposed to the general sense of non judeo christian faith) don't have a general history in this country, to a large extent. They've existed, sure, but they haven't been historically part of this country THAT much (which isn't to discount their existence or trivialize their faith, I was speaking from a historical perspective)

Fair enough, Happy Hanukkah. :)

Bullshit.

It doesn't presume a shared belief generally when it's a non-Christian doing the 'well-wishing'...because in the US and Canada, non-Christians are still the minority (not counting those who are just generally unreligious). It doesn't make sense to assume everyone else is part of said minority language. Then again, it makes no sense to assume everyone is a part of the majority religion, but things on that side aren't actually about common sense.

Assuming Christianity is akin to assuming heterosexuality. It's commonplace, it's pervasive, and it's constantly justified by people who really don't want to change their habits.


Over all, relgious and athiest reactionaries aside, Christmas, at least American Christmas is tends to be more nonreligious than religious in America, the focus is more centered on family than religion. I do not understand why people get upset about wishing someone well on a holiday. A person should be happy that someone is wishing them well, instead of taking offense.

I know it's been said before but it was a Solstice festival that the Christians may have ripped off (given that noone can say with any certainty when Christ was born.) Besides the Jewish and Roman calendars were being used then which further clouds the issue.

I think that Xmas is okay and I don't mind that it has been co-opted (Coca Cola's creation of Santa Claus in his red suit has now become a transcendant god).

I suggest that everyone lie back and enjoy being rogered by Santa.

Of course some people will presume, I'm saying that it's not necessarily the case by default.

yes, it is. "Merry christmas" is, inherently, a presumption. The fact that you might not consciously recognize it as such is, frankly, part of the problem. That the assumption that your audience is christian has become so pervasive as to essentially trivialize the beliefs and practices of millions of people in this country who don't give a damn about christmas.

If you don't want to make the presumption I'm christian, don't tell me to enjoy a christian holiday.

I do not understand why people get upset about wishing someone well on a holiday.

because it's not my holiday, and you shouldn't presume that it is. A very large part of my personal identity is made up by being something that is not christian. To ignore that is to ignore a fundamental part of me. I appreciate well wishes, I'd appreciate them a hell of a lot more if they didn't come at the price of ignoring and trivializing a very large part of my personal identity.

I suggest that everyone lie back and enjoy being rogered by Santa.

Wrong Chimney Santa, WRONG CHIMNEY!

If you don't want to make the presumption I'm christian, don't tell me to enjoy a christian holiday.
Och, I see 'Merry Christmas' as about as innocuous as 'Happy New Year'.

Many, many non-Christians celebrate Christmas in a non-Christian manner, just as many, many non-pagans celebrate the New Year in a non-pagan manner; albeit that Hogmany is far more 'secularised' than Christmas is.

Still, I'd wager when most people in the world are saying 'Merry Christmas', or the regional equivalent, to one another, they are meaning 'have a good time this festive period', not 'have a good time celebrating the birth of our Lord'.



Wrong Chimney Santa, WRONG CHIMNEY!
I lol'd.

Wait, seriously? Merry christmas doesn't imply that the person you're saying it to celebrates christmas?

If you say so, personally, I believe otherwise.



I think partially that's the problem. I don't think it is a "secular" expression. I think it does have religious overtones. I think the reason most people don't realize and recognize those overtones is that this inherent presumption has become ingrained. It's one thing to say "I don't mind when my muslim friends say happy ramadan!" but how often does that happen to most people? You're not the ones who are constantly bombarded by the presumption that a fundamental part of your identity...doesn't exist.

The difficulty here is that due to the limitations of language and lack of telepathy, there is no way to bridge the gap between 'what was intended' and 'what was understood'.

You might not think it's a secular expression, but many may use it in that way, with no religious overtones intended. Others may presume your religion, I am sure. But if you don't know, why not go for the one that aggravates you less?

Now I know this isn't that comparable, but I have no belief in Christianity or a God, and getting wished 'Merry Xmas' doesn't really upset me too much, because I translate it just as a way people wish each other well at this time of year as opposed to people making presumptions about my beliefs. And even if they presumed, who cares? It's their error, and their heart was still in the right place.

Och, I see 'Merry Christmas' as about as innocuous as 'Happy New Year'.

I don't. And the fact that people do is, as I said, to me, part of the problem. The fact that "merry christmas" has become synonymous with "happy holidays" just furthers the presumption that the only thing that matters is christmas.

If you want to wish me well this time of year, why not say that?

Still, I'd wager when most people in the world are saying 'Merry Christmas', or the regional equivalent, to one another, they are meaning 'have a good time this festive period', not 'have a good time celebrating the birth of our Lord'.


If, however, that is their intention, why are they so against saying "Happy Holidays"? If their goal is to communicate well wishing during a festive time of year in a secular manner, why not simply say that?

No, I think that people who are upset over others saying "Happy Holidays" and not "Merry Christmas" very much want the religious overtone to be a part of the statement.

The difficulty here is that due to the limitations of language and lack of telepathy, there is no way to bridge the gap between 'what was intended' and 'what was understood'.

But there is a way to very easily bridge the gap between "what is intended" and "what is said". Simply say what you mean.

You might not think it's a secular expression, but many may use it in that way, with no religious overtones intended. Others may presume your religion, I am sure. But if you don't know, why not go for the one that aggravates you less?

For two reasons:

1) it's not hard to say "happy holidays". It's not hard to simply wish someone well. I assume that most people have a basic command of the english language and enough cultural awareness to recognize that not everyone is christian.

2) the fact that it has become synonymous with a general "seasons greetings" is, for me, part of the concern. The fact that it's become SO commonplace, the fact that they've become SO interchangeable, it seems to enforce a general perception that the two are the same thing.

Now I know this isn't that comparable, but I have no belief in Christianity or a God, and getting wished 'Merry Xmas' doesn't really upset me too much

Is it too much to presume you were, at least, raised partially "christian"? I think it might be one thing to not believe, but still have that as part of your cultural identity.

I have NEVER had christmas. I've never WANTED christmas. To me, the fact that I don't celebrate it, is, as I said, an important part of my identity and sense of self. Thus, even if you odn't, you've probably at least incorporated the celebration (if not the belief) of christmas into your identity. I have not. That's why it's particularly jarring when people think I do.

And matching the spirit that was meant in, fuck you too! :p
Love 'ya back!

I've actually been looking forward to this year's Christmas, and I'm finally in the mood to celebrate it, too.

Hope you and your loved ones have a good time. Until then, fuck you, too! ;)

Happy Holidays
Yeah, why not celebrate a non-holiday!?! Happy bullshit, y'all!

If you want to wish me well this time of year, why not say that?
If, however, that is their intention, why are they so against saying "Happy Holidays"?
Because 'Happy Holidays' is a boorish Americanism, for one.

And because for a large amount of people within the regions of the world that celebrate Christmas, the term 'Christmas' now means this period of year, Santa, elves, presents and tinsel; arguably far more than it does the Christian celebration of the birth of their Lord and shepherds watching their flocks by night.

Just as 'Yule' now means, to most people, a chocolate log, not a pagan celebration.

I see now assault on freedom of belief, including the non-belief in a god or gods, in wishing someone a 'Merry Christmas'. It is a piece of our culture influenced by Christianity, sure, but so are so many other things.

Are you offended when someone says 'goodbye' (if I recall correctly, it is a shortening of the phrase 'God be with you') to you? Is the saying of 'bless you' after someone sneezes a "presumption" that the only thing that matters in our noses is Jehovah?

because it's not my holiday, and you shouldn't presume that it is. A very large part of my personal identity is made up by being something that is not christian. To ignore that is to ignore a fundamental part of me. I appreciate well wishes, I'd appreciate them a hell of a lot more if they didn't come at the price of ignoring and trivializing a very large part of my personal identity.

I am sorry but maybe its difference of background but I don't see how it is trivializing your identity because your not an christian. But then I can't understand how it presumes wither they know you are an christian or not and not that they wish you well during a time they consider joyous.

Speaking of Christians, there are quite a few who see Santa Claus and the whole Christmas Day thing as idolatrous (e.g. Cromwell's Puritans)
Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate it (nor do they celebrate their own birthday's)

Some of you may have heard of Herbert W. Armstrong. Here is his groups take on "The Santa Deception"
I really enjoyed it (especially the Carmina Burana music) but I prefer the illusion that is santa to the reality that is Herbert W Armstrong:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ArUIb1i6w&feature=related

But there is a way to very easily bridge the gap between "what is intended" and "what is said". Simply say what you mean.

For two reasons:

1) it's not hard to say "happy holidays". It's not hard to simply wish someone well. I assume that most people have a basic command of the english language and enough cultural awareness to recognize that not everyone is christian.

2) the fact that it has become synonymous with a general "seasons greetings" is, for me, part of the concern. The fact that it's become SO commonplace, the fact that they've become SO interchangeable, it seems to enforce a general perception that the two are the same thing.


So if people said 'happy holidays' but MEANT 'Merry Christmas', would that be better than meaning 'happy holidays but saying 'Merry Christmas'? Language evolves, the two have become interchangeable as you say. If given a choice of meanings, go for your preference! I see the interchangeability as a good thing, because now you can presume a secular meaning.


Is it too much to presume you were, at least, raised partially "christian"? I think it might be one thing to not believe, but still have that as part of your cultural identity.

I have NEVER had christmas. I've never WANTED christmas. To me, the fact that I don't celebrate it, is, as I said, an important part of my identity and sense of self. Thus, even if you odn't, you've probably at least incorporated the celebration (if not the belief) of christmas into your identity. I have not. That's why it's particularly jarring when people think I do.

Yes, christmas has been part of my upbringing (but not really in the religious sense). I see your point that not celebrating is a big part of your identity, so the pervasiveness of it can be grating. I find the general pervasiveness of Christianity grating, but I accept it's part of the culture I live in.

I suppose from my point of view, who cares if someone presumes something incorrect about me - it has no bearing on anything. But we're all different!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ArUIb1i6w&feature=related

rofltastic is that serious?

Yes. Herbert W Armstrong, who died in the 80's founded the Church of God and was a prolific tele-evangelist.

rofltastic is that serious?

Apparently it is. Go to their website. www.blowthetrumpet.org

Apparently it is. Go to their website. www.blowthetrumpet.org

Oh my God Im so happy I read this.

Here's what I don't get, what is the harm in letting kids believe in Santa Claus? One of my uncle and aunt has a son, and while they teach him about the real Saint Nick, they discourage him believing in the Santa Claus that lives in the North Pole and has 9 reindeer. Apparently they didn't want their son to be distracted from the real meaning of Christmas with fantasy. He's 2 freakin' years old man, let him have some fun.

That kid is going to grow up and be the complete opposite of his parents when he get to that teenager rebellion phase of his life, and I'm going to laugh.

Here's what I don't get, what is the harm in letting kids believe in Santa Claus? One of my uncle and aunt has a son, and while they teach him about the real Saint Nick, they discourage him believing in the Santa Claus that lives in the North Pole and has 9 reindeer. Apparently they didn't want their son to be distracted from the real meaning of Christmas with fantasy. He's 2 freakin' years old man, let him have some fun.

That kid is going to grow up and be the complete opposite of his parents when he get to that teenager rebellion phase of his life, and I'm going to laugh.

In short? Your aunt and uncle are idiots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnT-OaMlkHs Alle Jahre wieder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0iaoBbDmdQ Stille Nacht
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEoh8ajk01I Ihr Kinderlein kommet

Oh my God Im so happy I read this.
It's puritan Christianity.

As I said above (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14331351&postcount=77), the celebration, and in particular the ornamentation (physically and theologically) of Christmas in Calvinist regions was extremely frowned upon for a large part of the last 500 years.

Going back to my previous point, however, why complain about people saying 'Merry Christmas' when you are happy to use the phrase 'Oh my God'?

In short? Your aunt and uncle are idiots.

True, I was almost tempted to read "The Night Before Christmas" to the children at the family gathering this past Sunday, but I decided to keep the peace in the family, beside I had more pressing matters to attend to at the time.

why complain about people saying 'Merry Christmas' when you are happy to use the phrase 'Oh my God'?

Habit really. Theyre not comparable, however. I dont wish others to say "Oh my God".

Habit really. Theyre not comparable, however.
On the contrary.

It's a common, and evolving phrase that is not meant as an appeal to God by (I'd wager) the majority of people in the West who use it.

If, as a secularised society, were to ditch all language that had religious overtones or origins, we'd be left with hardly any language at all.

In short? Your aunt and uncle are idiots.
Yeah.

Boooh!

Tom Lehrer, a great American musician and comedian had lots to say on Xmas/Chanukah

Here's his Chanukah song:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GZUgr1zh878&feature=related

I wish I could get "Santa Claus" on You Tube. The lyrics go like this:
Santa Claus has a big red suit must be a communist
Santa Claus has long hair and a beard must be a pacifist
What's in that pipe he's smoking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL1qLtdmOj8 We wish you a Merry Christmas

My God! Die Toten Hosen is the Sex Pistols reincarnated!
They've even got anEnglish Working Class accent!

Since we are having a nice chat on here I thought this was suitable for this thread.

http://www.gocomics.com/stateoftheunion/2008/12/23/

Here's the thing. It's not the intent that offends me, it's the presumption. I am not christian. A very large part of my identity as self is not christian. I may be agnostic in belief, but I consider myself jewish. It is an important part of my self identity, culturally, ethnically, and by family. To presume I must be christian make a very false assumption, and an assumption that is not merited. It feels almost like it trivializes an important part of myself.

It's not all about you, though, is it? Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. There is no presumption in a simple "Merry Christmas" greeting that you do not go actively looking for yourself. So if it offends you, the problem is with you, not the person who wishes you well during a time of year during which THEY feel compelled to wish others well.

To presume automatically that I must be christian is to assume something that I am very much not. That is what offends me, that my identity, my culture, my history and my family seem so inconsequential to some that the thought never occurs to them that I might not wish to be thought of as a christian.

So it's the job of EVERYONE AROUND YOU to discern your background? Bullshit. That makes you lazy and FAR more presumptuous than you imagine THE REST OF THE WORLD to be. How can someone as smart as you not see that? "What is wrong with all of them that they don't understand me" is the first sign of ego defense and a clear look at solipsism.

That to deny the existence of my identity as a jew with a knee jerk presumption that I celebrate christmas robs me, in some small part, of the sense that my culture and ethnicity is just as important as everyone elses.

And now, paranoia. Who has denied you anything? My God, sir, at long last, have you no reason? The "knee jerk" is the desire to say "Merry Christmas" by someone who does indeed steep themselves in that culture. It is in no way an affront to you unless you CHOOSE to perceive it as such. And it is a lame choice, make no mistake about it.

Are not my holidays worthy of equal respect? Am I not to be thought well of if I don't celebrate your holidays?

OF COURSE they are! What kind of self-abnegating fool hears "fuck Hanukkah" when someone says "Merry Christmas"? If someone is made to understand that you do not celebrate Christmas, and is made to understand that in a way that doesn't presume that wishing you one makes them CULTURAL IMPERIALISTS (*yipe!*), then there's no reason to think ill of you. If they still do, then the problem is theirs, not yours.

The point is, why start off on the assumption of deliberate offense? That seems bellilgerent and like you're spoiling for a fight for no good reason. That reflects on you FAR worse than it does on a mindless well-wisher.

Why must your well wishes be predicated on the assumption that I celebrate as you do?

*sigh* They aren't. They're speaking from their own perspective, as I'm sure they'd assume you would, too. That's why I suggested coming back with "Happy Hanukkah", with just as much cheer. That way, if the original well-wisher is offended, that's THEIR problem, and YOU don't come off as a defensive prick.

Wishing you well in the spirit of a religious celebration does not presume you are of the same religious persuasion. It seems a bit reactionary to think so IMO. If anything, 'Merry Christmas' has become more seasonal than religious anyway, it has far less religious significance than say "peace be upon you".

If a Hindu wished me a happy Divali, or a Muslim a happy Ramadan, I'm not going to be offended because I don't share their beliefs. I am in fact happy to have been included in their well-wishing. I don't see how the intent to wish someone well in the spirit of your own beliefs belies any presumption of their beliefs.

This. ^

Things have changed people. With as many Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Jains, Sikhs, Taoists, Traditionalists (Indians, feather not dot) and so forth, it's actually pretty asinine of anyone to be surprised when the whole "Merry Christmas" thing causes someone to pull a sour face. Do Muslims habitually wish you Happy Ramadan, assuming you're Muslim? Yeah, no. They might mention it, but not with that underlying assumption that you believe what they believe.

So where's the proof of any underlying assumption on behalf of "Merry Christmas"? There isn't one. You simply cannot make anyone believe that the person saying such is thinking "and fuck you if you don't celebrate my holiday". The only reason to think this way is if you're militant, paranoid and determined to inconvenience everyone around you who doesn't think like you. Sounds a lot like your own brand of proselytization to me. Sorry, but if you're going to demand that kind of clairvoyance, you better stop saying "bless you" to sneezes, and stop using "God" altogether in common phrases. Otherwise, it smacks of hypocrisy to demand that everyone else restrain themselves when all they're doing is getting into the spirit of the holiday they celebrate, whether you do or not.

Bullshit.

It doesn't presume a shared belief generally when it's a non-Christian doing the 'well-wishing'...because in the US and Canada, non-Christians are still the minority (not counting those who are just generally unreligious). It doesn't make sense to assume everyone else is part of said minority language. Then again, it makes no sense to assume everyone is a part of the majority religion, but things on that side aren't actually about common sense.

That's fine. Plenty of non-Christians (such as myself) say "Merry Christmas" because it's what we're used to. I look at the calendar, however, and make sure to throw out some "Happy Hanukkah"s when it's that week, and "Splendid Solstice" on the 21st. I leave Kwanzaa out because it's bullshit, but I wouldn't react poorly to someone wishing me well in Kwanzaa terms. Same thing with Ramadan, which I leave out because it can be hard to tell who is or isn't celebrating it.

Regardless, I'd rather have something to say than nothing, and "Happy Holidays" just sounds empty and meaningless to me. I make enough of a concession to say "Merry Whatever" and get on with my day. But wasting energy on those wishing me a Merry Christmas? Ludicrous.

Assuming Christianity is akin to assuming heterosexuality. It's commonplace, it's pervasive, and it's constantly justified by people who really don't want to change their habits.

I don't hear it justified by anyone. I hear one hell of a lot more altered pronouns than assumptions. But I'm not in your shoes (though in more candid moments, I have longed to be your shoes...).

Because 'Happy Holidays' is a boorish Americanism, for one.

And because for a large amount of people within the regions of the world that celebrate Christmas, the term 'Christmas' now means this period of year, Santa, elves, presents and tinsel; arguably far more than it does the Christian celebration of the birth of their Lord and shepherds watching their flocks by night.

Just as 'Yule' now means, to most people, a chocolate log, not a pagan celebration.

I see now assault on freedom of belief, including the non-belief in a god or gods, in wishing someone a 'Merry Christmas'. It is a piece of our culture influenced by Christianity, sure, but so are so many other things.

Are you offended when someone says 'goodbye' (if I recall correctly, it is a shortening of the phrase 'God be with you') to you? Is the saying of 'bless you' after someone sneezes a "presumption" that the only thing that matters in our noses is Jehovah?

This and this ^

If, however, that is their intention, why are they so against saying "Happy Holidays"? If their goal is to communicate well wishing during a festive time of year in a secular manner, why not simply say that?

...because "holiday (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=holiday&searchmode=none)" has no religious background at all.

Wait, seriously? Merry christmas doesn't imply that the person you're saying it to celebrates christmas?

Merry Christmas Neo A...

:p

Oooh! Get down and dirty Intangelon!
"Same thing with Ramadan, which I leave out because it can be hard to tell who is or isn't celebrating it."

Hint: If you're eating a falafel between sunrise and sunset in front of them and they start
drooling, they're celebrating Ramadan.
Similarly, you can try eating a kipper on Yom Kippur to separate the sheep from the goys.

LOL @ the raising the tree pic.

Anyway, I think the solution to the war on Christmas is to separate the commercial component of it from the Christian component of it, then call the former the Holidays from now on and keep calling the latter Christmas. That way, people can "keep Christ in Christmas" like those signs people put up say, and don't have to be reminded to keep Christ in the holidays, which will then be religiously-neutral so that any religions can participate anyway. I recall Richard Dawkins once saying that Christmas has strayed so far from its religious meaning that the word Christmas no longer has religious connotations and he has no problem wishing people a Merry Christmas. I don't either; I say that one myself. I just think separating the aspects would be a more religiously-neutral way to go. I don't see why we need to keep tying this commercialism to a Christian holiday, when there's objections to such ties on both the commercial and Christian sides of it.

See, I tend to wish people a happy whatever their holiday is. For example, if I know theyre Christian, I wish them a "Merry Christmas". If I know theyre Jewish, I wish them a "Happy Hannukah". If I know theyre Wiccan, I wish them a "Merry Yule". Atheists get a "Merry Xmas" (and I do pronounce the "x", most get a kick out of that). If I dont know what they are, I say "Happy Holidays".

But thats because Im a nice guy, and not a bigoted, self rightous dousche who thinks that my belief is the only belief worth recognizing.

How strange of me.


EDIT: I just noticed it could appear as though Im saying bad things about Dakini. Im not, dont worry ;)
*applauds* It's refreshing to see such a moderate, reasoned approach to this.

By the way, did you know that calling it Xmas wasn't done to remove the word "Christ" but as a shorthand based on some Greek-language association of the letter X with the word Christ? I remember learning that in social studies in middle school...

They've even got anEnglish Working Class accent!

No. Not at all.

So where's the proof of any underlying assumption on behalf of "Merry Christmas"? There isn't one. You simply cannot make anyone believe that the person saying such is thinking "and fuck you if you don't celebrate my holiday". The only reason to think this way is if you're militant, paranoid and determined to inconvenience everyone around you who doesn't think like you. Sounds a lot like your own brand of proselytization to me. Sorry, but if you're going to demand that kind of clairvoyance, you better stop saying "bless you" to sneezes, and stop using "God" altogether in common phrases. Otherwise, it smacks of hypocrisy to demand that everyone else restrain themselves when all they're doing is getting into the spirit of the holiday they celebrate, whether you do or not. Way to distort the argument. I don't think that the average person is saying 'fuck you if you don't celebrate my holiday'...I don't think they've actually thought about it that deeply. I object to the mindless lack of wider social awareness inherent in wishing others a Merry Christian holiday. I object to people who, once it is brought up that such well wishing is actually sort of stupid considering the ethnic and religious makeup of our modern society, continue to 'stick to their guns' because to do otherwise is some sort of personal affront. The only reason to continue to do THAT is if you are militant, paranoid and determined to offend whomever may so take offence in the name of protecting your so called 'secular celebration which nonetheless MUST continue to have Christian overtones else lose all meaning'.

Way to distort the argument. I don't think that the average person is saying 'fuck you if you don't celebrate my holiday'...I don't think they've actually thought about it that deeply. I object to the mindless lack of wider social awareness inherent in wishing others a Merry Christian holiday. I object to people who, once it is brought up that such well wishing is actually sort of stupid considering the ethnic and religious makeup of our modern society, continue to 'stick to their guns' because to do otherwise is some sort of personal affront. The only reason to continue to do THAT is if you are militant, paranoid and determined to offend whomever may so take offence in the name of protecting your so called 'secular celebration which nonetheless MUST continue to have Christian overtones else lose all meaning'.

Oh come on, are you a little drunk or something? This post is really out of touch with reality. I just want to know, are you in a strange mood, or have you been drinking or something?

Oh come on, are you a little drunk or something? This post is really out of touch with reality. I just want to know, are you in a strange mood, or have you been drinking or something?

Wait, people post on NSG sober? :confused:

Why do we do this every year? Is there a point, or do we just argue because we like arguing? Oh wait, this is NSG, disregard that last question.

I direct you to the quote from Neo Bretonnia in my signature.

I'm having a great Christmas and I'm an anarchist from a Judeo-Christian background.

We have twenty people over here in Melbourne and we have a wading poolfor the kids whilethe olies eat their Xmas pudding.

POeace on Earth and goodwill to all!

Day zero-The battle of Silver bells
Our border patrols have set up camp in order to scout out the enemy. It appears that once again the brash liberal God hating tree hugging baby killers are attempting to invade. Their main weapons of choice: Tolerance, acceptance and an unyielding need to welcome foreign cultures. We must hold the line here tomorrow, failure is not an option. First they went after christmas in schools and i did not care because public schools always sucked. Then they went for christmas cards and i did not care for i hated hallmark anyway. Then my next door neighbor started celebrating a tradition other than mine and i was like cool dude that's nice. Then i was harrased for wishing merry christmas to a muslim and i had no one left to defend me. This ends tomorrow.
To be continued.........on christmas..........that's tomorrow........bye.....

Oh come on, are you a little drunk or something? This post is really out of touch with reality. I just want to know, are you in a strange mood, or have you been drinking or something?

I take it you weren't actually able to read it.

Ooh! Is this the Christmas fight where the whole family joins in?

Oooh! Get down and dirty Intangelon!
"Same thing with Ramadan, which I leave out because it can be hard to tell who is or isn't celebrating it."

Hint: If you're eating a falafel between sunrise and sunset in front of them and they start
drooling, they're celebrating Ramadan.
Similarly, you can try eating a kipper on Yom Kippur to separate the sheep from the goys.

Thanks -- I needed that! :)

*applauds* It's refreshing to see such a moderate, reasoned approach to this.

By the way, did you know that calling it Xmas wasn't done to remove the word "Christ" but as a shorthand based on some Greek-language association of the letter X with the word Christ? I remember learning that in social studies in middle school...

"Some"? How about the X is the first letter in the name Christ in Greek (x = ch, but aspirated) -- Χριστος (Xristos). X became shorthand for Christ, and is still used in "Xian" and "Xity" (Christian and Christianity) as shorthand in fields like archaeology and sociology. When you see a stylized X with a P through the center of it, that's a symbol using the Greek first and second letters of Christ's name.

Way to distort the argument. I don't think that the average person is saying 'fuck you if you don't celebrate my holiday'...I don't think they've actually thought about it that deeply.

And that's a crime?

I object to the mindless lack of wider social awareness inherent in wishing others a Merry Christian holiday.

Holy shit, you must spend a lot of time objecting! Wait. You do. And 98% of the time, I agree with you.

I object to people who, once it is brought up that such well wishing is actually sort of stupid considering the ethnic and religious makeup of our modern society, continue to 'stick to their guns' because to do otherwise is some sort of personal affront.

I agree that anyone who, when presented with evidence (whether subtle or spoken) that the person they're talking to doesn't wish to be so addressed, continues to address someone via Christmas is acting like an asshole. However, taking great and dramatic offense at someone who wishes you a Merry Christmas without knowing whether you'll jump down their throat or not, well, that's asshole behavior, too. You can't blame someone for using a greeting that was inculcated into their mind from birth. They're likely to think that it's harmless, which it is. You haven't demonstrated any harm beyond "it's just wrong, dammit", which is coming off as a bit childish, really.

The only reason to continue to do THAT is if you are militant, paranoid and determined to offend whomever may so take offence in the name of protecting your so called 'secular celebration which nonetheless MUST continue to have Christian overtones else lose all meaning'.

Which is no different from being "militant, paranoid and determined to take offense" at whomever may be just wishing you happiness without any sinister undertones in the name of protecting your so-called personal individuality from the constant invasion of *gasp* well-wishers who are so clearly bent on extinguishing your unique flame that they've gone an invented a whole holiday for just that purpose. For if you don't stand up to every perceived slight, that unique flame loses all meaning?

Seriously, Sin, there are microbes larger than this issue.

Wait, people post on NSG sober? :confused:

Well I do.

Well here in Australia, Christmas is just about over. All my kids went of with their lovers to Chistmas evening events while Gill and I watched "Inspector Rex" - it was great.
Gill's now asleep and my black cat Morgan is keeping me company while I type this out on Gill's laptop in front of the telly.
I'm thinking of you all and wishing you all love, peace, gainful employment and general happiness for 2009. I really enjoy the discussions/arguments we have on Nation States. Here's my Yom Kippur addition: If I offended anyone in 2008, please forgive me (Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement and it occurs in October usually).

*applauds* It's refreshing to see such a moderate, reasoned approach to this.

By the way, did you know that calling it Xmas wasn't done to remove the word "Christ" but as a shorthand based on some Greek-language association of the letter X with the word Christ? I remember learning that in social studies in middle school...

X is the greek letter Chi, sounding approximately like the ch in loch. Hence it's use in the Xmas thing. Intangelon has also mentioned this, but I thought I'd show off a little of my Greek.

Well I do.

That's just wrong... You're Finnish, for Pete's sake! :eek2:


(Yay stereotypes! ;) )

That's just wrong... You're Finnish, for Pete's sake! :eek2:


(Yay stereotypes! ;) )

Yeah, I drink lots of alchohol. I am 14-year old.

Merry Christmas, everyone. :tongue:

And that's a crime? Buh :confused:

Sorry, did I miss the part where people were discussing the criminalisation of the phrase 'Merry Christmas'?



Holy shit, you must spend a lot of time objecting! Wait. You do. And 98% of the time, I agree with you. If no one ever brought these things up, things would very likely never change.

You see...most people actually aren't giant douchebags who go out of their way to annoy others. And those people that are giant douchebags...well among them, there are actually those who behave that way in order to get people to think about their behaviour...so not all those are bad either. So it's a very small percentage of people who are belligerantly douchebaggy. I'm not actually all that interested in that group, because they've dug their heels in and everything you might say on the subject is only going to fuel their persecution complex.

It's the majority of people I think this conversation is useful for. The ones who do something out of habit rather than any great conviction or desire to exclude. People like my father's mother for example, who apparently had never met a jew until she met a boy I was seeing. We had a very cringeworthy conversation with her after she asked what he was doing for xmas...(well it seemed that way at the time, now looking back I suppose it went quite well), my jewish boy and I had to explain that jews don't celebrate x-mas. She'd of course heard of this before, she just hadn't thought about it.

But from that time on (in great part I think because jewboy was white and she probably always wondered after that if someone she encountered was jewish, having no way to tell) she wished people a wonderful 'holiday'.

You see, I try not to deliberately engage in behaviours that will make people suspect that I am either stupid, or racist. Once you're aware that this is in fact what the impression you may be giving, in today's much more multicultural society, then I'm uncertain why you'd continue with a behaviour that has no inherently important point worth conserving.


I agree that anyone who, when presented with evidence (whether subtle or spoken) that the person they're talking to doesn't wish to be so addressed, continues to address someone via Christmas is acting like an asshole. However, taking great and dramatic offense at someone who wishes you a Merry Christmas without knowing whether you'll jump down their throat or not, well, that's asshole behavior, too. You can't blame someone for using a greeting that was inculcated into their mind from birth. They're likely to think that it's harmless, which it is. You haven't demonstrated any harm beyond "it's just wrong, dammit", which is coming off as a bit childish, really.
This is a conversation, not an actual physical interaction between people. I have never 'jumped down anyone's throat' over a Merry Christmas greeting, nor have I witnessed anyone else do so. This is a conversation about the terms and usage...which is not what generally happens on the street. People say things, you shrug, wish them well back, and go about your day. THIS is a chance to analsye and critique, and that is exactly what is being done. Do not conflate the two scenarios.



Which is no different from being "militant, paranoid and determined to take offense" at whomever may be just wishing you happiness without any sinister undertones in the name of protecting your so-called personal individuality from the constant invasion of *gasp* well-wishers who are so clearly bent on extinguishing your unique flame that they've gone an invented a whole holiday for just that purpose. For if you don't stand up to every perceived slight, that unique flame loses all meaning?

Seriously, Sin, there are microbes larger than this issue.

Right right, and no one should complain about anything because life is always worse for someone, somewhere?

It's a topical issue, it's particularly relevant this time of year, and I think YOU think I'm taking it a lot more seriously than I am. Do you really think that if I comment on an issue, debate it, get involved, that somehow this means I'm crusading in real life at the same time? That I'm standing in front of Salvation Army collection sites to scowl at people and lambaste them for wishing one another Merry Christmas? Please. I am perfectly capable of commentary based on my beliefs, without that commentary translating into fervent action in real life. Despite your suggestion to the contrary, I know how to pick my battles....but this is not really taking up all that much energy, so discuss it I shall.

Generally I'm bemused at those who seem so oblivious to the changing ethnic/religious make-up of their surroundings, that they honestly haven't thought about the use of the term before...I suspect that this is still more prevalent in less mixed, rural areas than it is in more diverse metropolitan locales. I doubt that it would really take more than one, or two times having someone laughingly say 'Do I look like I celebrate Christmas to you?' before you'd alter your well wishing to either be less specific or more inclusive.

What is MOST amusing to me in the context of this conversation though is the mental acrobatics being engaged in by those who wish to claim that Merry Christmas is a purely secular term, and everyone knows it.

Bollocks.

I'd also like to point out that I don't go around assuming all brown people are Muslim, because many are also Hindu, Sikh, Christian or *gasp* Jewish...I have an Egyptian Coptic friend who says he gets that sort of hesitation before holiday greetings all the time because people are assuming he's Muslim and wondering what holiday he might be celebrating...he fires off a "Merry Christmas" which sometimes sparks conversations about Egyptian Christians but more often, he says, results in very confused looks :D

That whole argument of 'it's too hard to know what people are, and it's simpler to just say it to everyone' thing doesn't go too far. Not when life is full of examples of how you should make assumptions about the social/religious/political beliefs of the people around you without corroborating evidence.

I'd also like to point out that I don't go around assuming all brown people are Muslim...
And...?

I'd question your whole assumption; that when someone says 'Merry Christmas', they are assuming or promoting a Christian point-of-view.

Buh :confused:

Sorry, did I miss the part where people were discussing the criminalisation of the phrase 'Merry Christmas'?

I apologize for mischaracterizing your take on this.

If no one ever brought these things up, things would very likely never change.

This is true.

You see...most people actually aren't giant douchebags who go out of their way to annoy others. And those people that are giant douchebags...well among them, there are actually those who behave that way in order to get people to think about their behaviour...so not all those are bad either. So it's a very small percentage of people who are belligerantly douchebaggy. I'm not actually all that interested in that group, because they've dug their heels in and everything you might say on the subject is only going to fuel their persecution complex.

You're right. Point conceded.

It's the majority of people I think this conversation is useful for. The ones who do something out of habit rather than any great conviction or desire to exclude. People like my father's mother for example, who apparently had never met a jew until she met a boy I was seeing. We had a very cringeworthy conversation with her after she asked what he was doing for xmas...(well it seemed that way at the time, now looking back I suppose it went quite well), my jewish boy and I had to explain that jews don't celebrate x-mas. She'd of course heard of this before, she just hadn't thought about it.

Great example.

But from that time on (in great part I think because jewboy was white and she probably always wondered after that if someone she encountered was jewish, having no way to tell) she wished people a wonderful 'holiday'.

You've convinced me.

You see, I try not to deliberately engage in behaviours that will make people suspect that I am either stupid, or racist. Once you're aware that this is in fact what the impression you may be giving, in today's much more multicultural society, then I'm uncertain why you'd continue with a behaviour that has no inherently important point worth conserving.

Best point yet. If it's only a habit (as I suspect it is with the "it's secular" fabulists), then, like other habits, it's changeable.

This is a conversation, not an actual physical interaction between people. I have never 'jumped down anyone's throat' over a Merry Christmas greeting, nor have I witnessed anyone else do so. This is a conversation about the terms and usage...which is not what generally happens on the street. People say things, you shrug, wish them well back, and go about your day. THIS is a chance to analsye and critique, and that is exactly what is being done. Do not conflate the two scenarios.

Again, my apologies.

Right right, and no one should complain about anything because life is always worse for someone, somewhere?

Well, bring up, rather than complain, but yeah, I get it.

It's a topical issue, it's particularly relevant this time of year, and I think YOU think I'm taking it a lot more seriously than I am. Do you really think that if I comment on an issue, debate it, get involved, that somehow this means I'm crusading in real life at the same time? That I'm standing in front of Salvation Army collection sites to scowl at people and lambaste them for wishing one another Merry Christmas? Please. I am perfectly capable of commentary based on my beliefs, without that commentary translating into fervent action in real life. Despite your suggestion to the contrary, I know how to pick my battles....but this is not really taking up all that much energy, so discuss it I shall.

And I am grateful.

Generally I'm bemused at those who seem so oblivious to the changing ethnic/religious make-up of their surroundings, that they honestly haven't thought about the use of the term before...I suspect that this is still more prevalent in less mixed, rural areas than it is in more diverse metropolitan locales. I doubt that it would really take more than one, or two times having someone laughingly say 'Do I look like I celebrate Christmas to you?' before you'd alter your well wishing to either be less specific or more inclusive.

Well, I did spend the last three years in North Dakota...and not near Turtle Mountain or Standing Rock.

What is MOST amusing to me in the context of this conversation though is the mental acrobatics being engaged in by those who wish to claim that Merry Christmas is a purely secular term, and everyone knows it.

Bollocks.

Agreed. Thanks again for the enlightenment.

Merry Whatever!

I apologize for mischaracterizing your take on this.

This is true.

You're right. Point conceded.

Great example.

You've convinced me.

Best point yet. If it's only a habit (as I suspect it is with the "it's secular" fabulists), then, like other habits, it's changeable.

Again, my apologies.

Well, bring up, rather than complain, but yeah, I get it.

And I am grateful.

Well, I did spend the last three years in North Dakota...and not near Turtle Mountain or Standing Rock.

Agreed. Thanks again for the enlightenment.

Merry Whatever!

Way to take the wind out of my sails..so few people are willing to respond to my reasonable posts with anything regarding reason...

Happy Holidays :D

Not in Scotland, and certain other places. Christmas wasn't a public holiday here till 1958, and was technically illegal for 400 years prior to that. Celebrating Christmas was seen as Papist blasphemy by many people in Protestant countries for many years.

So, try and learn some history before you spout nonsense.

I am aware that celebrating Christmas was viewed negatively by Protestants, however, I was talking about the 1950s. If you really want to be picky, I am also aware that in the British Empire, the modern Christmas celebration did not get underway until the 1840s thanks to Prince Albert & Charles Dickens.

My point was that in the 1950s, everyone celebrated Christmas. Yule, Kwanzaa, et. al., was not in the Western consciousness

BUWHAHAHA.

Yule was a western holiday before Christ allegidly existed.

So? Yule may have been a holiday before Christ, but it disappeared from Western consciousness for a long period of time

No, non-Christians have been in America forever. Our country was founded by them.

If you talking about the Native American Indians, then fair enough. If you are talking about the first European settlers, then I have one word for you

Bullshit!

Are you?

Im sure back then if you told someone "Merry Christmas!" and they didnt celebrate Christmas, they would tell you so.

The fact that society is more socially conscience is a good thing.

Keep it coming.

People can be more socially conscious, however, to go to the extent of prohibiting employees to wish customers Merry Christmas for fear of offending them is where I draw the line. My major objection is banning traditional acts because some people may be offended, not being socially conscious.

One theory is that, now that the Dark Black Lord of Mordor has been fraudulently elected - shots have been fired on Fort Sumpter, it's time for the Men of the West to stand. And you have to pick your battles carefully. Why worry about little things like the War on Christmas, when soon the Islamic Caliphate of America will be announced and the international homosexual terrorist agenda will enter its final phase? Don't sweat the small stuff, amirite?

If you talking about the Native American Indians, then fair enough. If you are talking about the first European settlers, then I have one word for you

Bullshit!
'bout the Vikings who popped up in the 1000s?

I think that was too early for them to have be converted.

One of the Byzantine Emperors also banned Christmas presents, sometime in the 700s. The book I read it in is in my house in Reading, so I can't find out which one, much to my annoyance.

I dont get some of these posts. I am an atheist, and I still care about christmas, I still wish merry christmas, to people. in my opinion, its not about jesus, but a time where people gather around, and have a great time. Its not about how many gifts we give, but with the spirit we give it with

One theory is that, now that the Dark Black Lord of Mordor has been fraudulently elected - shots have been fired on Fort Sumpter, it's time for the Men of the West to stand. And you have to pick your battles carefully. Why worry about little things like the War on Christmas, when soon the Islamic Caliphate of America will be announced and the international homosexual terrorist agenda will enter its final phase? Don't sweat the small stuff, amirite?

Too true.

Probably because we haven't heard anyone go and declare that saying "merry Christmas" is illegal this year. It's only when you try to ban Christmas or religious christmas music that you get all this hoopla about a "War on Christmas".
Local governments and employers have learned a thing or two about not trying to ban American traditions. The backlash can be substantial.
I think it was a big deal last year because people were being fired from their jobs for saying Merry Christmas and some cities tried to give out citations. Utterly stupid policies if that is indeed what happened.

Some of my friends joined a group about how they shouldn't be forced to say "happy holidays" and that they'd be wishing people a "merry christmas".

So I wished them a happy solstice.

Good for you.

Now then, merry christmas.

Probably because we haven't heard anyone go and declare that saying "merry Christmas" is illegal this year.

When have they ever?

'bout the Vikings who popped up in the 1000s?

I think that was too early for them to have be converted.
Lief Ericsson was actually one of the early converts.

If you talking about the Native American Indians, then fair enough. If you are talking about the first European settlers, then I have one word for you


He's talking about the people who founded the country. I know, it's really hard to figure out, what with him only blatantly stating it.

'bout the Vikings who popped up in the 1000s?

I think that was too early for them to have be converted.

One of the Byzantine Emperors also banned Christmas presents, sometime in the 700s. The book I read it in is in my house in Reading, so I can't find out which one, much to my annoyance.

The Vikings did not permanently settle in America. It would be like me saying that the founders of New Zealand and Australia were Dutch because the Dutch were the first known Europeans (I say that, because I am of the view that the Portugese may have been the first Europeans to see New Zealand and Australia, and did so in the 1520s) to discover Australia and New Zealand.

When I was talking European settlers, I was thinking more of the Puritans in Massachusetts & the English in Virginia.

Lief Ericsson was actually one of the early converts.

Yup. Converted sometime between the winter of 999 and the spring of 1000 ;)

IIf you talking about the Native American Indians, then fair enough. If you are talking about the first European settlers, then I have one word for you

Bullshit!


I was refering to the "founding fathers", or are you one of those people who labors under the delusion that they were Christian?

When have they ever?

Oh, you know, in the Conservative Christian Persecution Complex Fantasy Land.

He's talking about the people who founded the country. I know, it's really hard to figure out, what with him only blatantly stating it.

Now now, lets not confuse our friend with the obvious.


As you can see, I have no Christmas cheer. Humbug.

Way to take the wind out of my sails..so few people are willing to respond to my reasonable posts with anything regarding reason...

Happy Holidays :D

I did want to see you go on, but I was swayed and swept aside by your sweet, sexy logic.

One theory is that, now that the Dark Black Lord of Mordor has been fraudulently elected - shots have been fired on Fort Sumpter, it's time for the Men of the West to stand. And you have to pick your battles carefully. Why worry about little things like the War on Christmas, when soon the Islamic Caliphate of America will be announced and the international homosexual terrorist agenda will enter its final phase? Don't sweat the small stuff, amirite?

I'll have what he's smoking.

I was refering to the "founding fathers", or are you one of those people who labors under the delusion that they were Christian?

They were Christian though, like everyone in what became the United States in that era.

They were Christian though, like everyone in what became the United States in that era....:rolleyes:

They were Christian though, like everyone in what became the United States in that era.
It's firmly established that some were Deist, going on agnostic.

Thomas Jefferson, perhaps. Thomas Paine, for definite.

They were Christian though, like everyone in what became the United States in that era.

Right, time for you to wake up...
None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

linky (http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html)

Right, time for you to wake up...
C'mon. Source it.

I agree with the text, but when discussing something like this, you can't just paste an unsourced bit of text.

Probably because we haven't heard anyone go and declare that saying "merry Christmas" is illegal this year. It's only when you try to ban Christmas or religious christmas music that you get all this hoopla about a "War on Christmas".
Local governments and employers have learned a thing or two about not trying to ban American traditions. The backlash can be substantial.
I think it was a big deal last year because people were being fired from their jobs for saying Merry Christmas and some cities tried to give out citations. Utterly stupid policies if that is indeed what happened.
What are you talking about? Who's trying to ban Christmas, and who's being fired for saying Merry Christmas?

Well...They lost...the flag wavers, and cross huggers have to prick their finger an rub it on the map to find any Red to speak of...


Personally, Im glad they did, Im sick of Bill-O....

They were Christian though, like everyone in what became the United States in that era.

Except that they weren't. Certainly not all of them.