NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you think organized pro-Israeli lobbying exerts a disproportionate on US foreign policy (or at least, has done in some periods of post-Cold War history)?

If so/not, do you think this is a good thing i.e. 1. serving the interests of the Middle East and 2. serving US strategic interests?

Yes. And did so in the Cold War as well. And this is absolutely not a good thing, the US is bleeding money into Israel, and it's so weak that it doesn't have a self-sustaining economy after sixty bloody years.

the Jews control everything silly.

or rather the Jews just have a mutual interest with certain other groups in the US

it's so weak that it doesn't have a self-sustaining economy after sixty bloody years.

expand on this.

US foreign policy is pro-Israel, but attributing that entirely to Jewish lobbyists seems overly simplistic.

expand on this.
IIRC, without US money and other supplies, the Israeli government would have a pretty substantial budget deficit. The situation has improved a lot over the last few years, but it's still not a strong enough economy to work without outside aid, after 60 years, which is Pretty Bad.

No; US policy toward Israel developed in response to the circumstances of the Cold War, to provide a counterweight to Soviet-backed nationalist regimes, and it retains something of this role now.

There is a massive pro-isreal lobby. But it's not just jews. Evangelical christians who want the end times are a big part of it too.

And it's been going on so long, it's sort of a background to anything that the US does in the middle east, so support of isreal has become a default position. (Lot's of people say isreal is the US's closest ally too. I would dispute that. And even if it was true, isreal is so insignificant in a global sense it doesn't matter anyway. It's sort of like being bosom pals with belgium).

IIRC, without US money and other supplies, the Israeli government would have a pretty substantial budget deficit. The situation has improved a lot over the last few years, but it's still not a strong enough economy to work without outside aid, after 60 years, which is Pretty Bad.

Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US

Source (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#Econ)

looks like Israel is in debt yes but its hardly in a vulnerable position considering its economic assets

It's sort of like being bosom pals with belgium).

well they've been our bitch since at least 1914 and they haven't really let us down

IIRC, without US money and other supplies, the Israeli government would have a pretty substantial budget deficit. The situation has improved a lot over the last few years, but it's still not a strong enough economy to work without outside aid, after 60 years, which is Pretty Bad.

Israel's economy relies on foreign trade and investment, which is not the same thing as being dependent on aid. Palestine is dependent on aid. Israel gets something like $3b in aid every year, and its revenue is something like $50 b. Also, the government's budget is not the same thing as the economy as a whole. Israel has had strong economic growth.

Many American military weapons contractors rely on the money the US gives to Israel so they'll spend it on American weapons because most Americans would bitch if the US just gave the money to the contractors and cut out the middle man. :tongue:

Yes.
When a major part of the US' foreign policy is literally "Israel's problems are our problems," the question answers itself.

Israel is a lodestone around our collective necks. Let them fend for themselves, we've invested enough.

There is a massive pro-isreal lobby. But it's not just jews. Evangelical christians who want the end times are a big part of it too.

In terms of Evangelical Christians, I would also say it is because they do not wish to get cursed (see Genesis 12 for more details).

I don't like the poll, it's too black and white. There are various strong Pro-Israel lobbies from various directions, political, nationalist, Jewish, Christian and so on. Of varying interests, desires and motivations. Therefore, to lump them together under the umbrella of "the Israel lobby" simplifies the situation and smacks of conspiracy theories a la World Jewish Conspiracy.

Yes, most Western nations' foreign policy is skewed towards favouring Israel. In some countries this is due to lobbying by Zionists, in some because of racism and xenophobia against Arabs, and in yet others from a 'you scratch mine and I'll scratch yours' approach.

It has very little to do with an "Israeli lobby". The US government supports the state of Israel because doing so serves the foreign policy interests of the United States. It unbalances the entire Middle East, and gives the US a great way to test new weapon systems in actual combat without having to engage in war itself.

We give large amounts in foreign aid to Egypt and Jordan and Pakistan as well. It's not charity - I'm sure we get something for it.

No, I believe in the "Cruel Angel Thesis".

But that you should stop supporting Israel no matter what crap it pulls, you should.

Do you think organized pro-Israeli lobbying exerts a disproportionate on US foreign policy (or at least, has done in some periods of post-Cold War history)?

As an associate contractual employee of ZOG, I don't think. I know.

I'd say that AIPAC and similar groups have more of an influence on public opinion than they do on actual policy. American support for Israel isn't prompted by the Israel Lobby any more than American support for the Shah was prompted by the Iran Lobby, support for Saddam Hussein by the Iraq Lobby, or support for Saudi Arabia by the Saudi Lobby.

American public opinion, on the other hand, is strongly pro-Israel thanks to public interest groups, anti-Muslim sentiment, evangelical nutjobbery, and a host of other factors. It's this level of general interest in Israel that would cause an unlicensed plumber from Ohio to accuse Obama of wanting to destroy Israel. In turn, this makes leftists complain that Israel gets undue support from the U.S., while ignoring the support we give to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. (Israel does get a higher portion of aid and FDI, but it's also stable and democratic).

Do you think organized pro-Israeli lobbying exerts a disproportionate on US foreign policy (or at least, has done in some periods of post-Cold War history)?

Um, duh. there's a reason this country sends so much weapons to people who make a big show out of shooting unarmed children, and who claim to have the world's greatest army but come squealing to us when Iran says something mean.
(BTW I do believe in the holocaust, and you can shove your inevitable anti-Semitic BS up (deleted).)

Go USA.

Do you think organized pro-Israeli lobbying exerts a disproportionate on US foreign policy (or at least, has done in some periods of post-Cold War history)?

Yes, as do almost all other lobby groups.

If so/not, do you think this is a good thing i.e. 1. serving the interests of the Middle East and 2. serving US strategic interests?

1 - It serves the interests of a specific part of the M.E.

2 - It serves the strategic interests of a segment of the U.S.A.

The republicans should get smart and figure out that cutting Isreal loose would be the fastest way to self-destruct the democrats, and to electoral joy for them.

They are going to have to deep six the evangelicals anyway.

Israel is basically a safe foothold for our strategic interests in the area. It really doesn't get much better than that location for any and all of our needs, and given that the Israelis have literally been besieged by Arab states in years past with the goal of utter destruction it's a given that they will allow us to build out whatever military facilities we need for the foreseeable future.

Honestly, Israel doesn't need a lobby to get our support. It's such a choice piece of strategic land that we'd probably try to ally with any friendly regime in such a region.

The republicans should get smart and figure out that cutting Isreal loose would be the fastest way to self-destruct the democrats, and to electoral joy for them.

How would that work?

If the united states government were to stop caving into this strange alliance of religious groups (jews and evangelicals) and giving massive amounts of military and economic favour to Israel there might actually be peace in the middle east when Israel finally realises that it cannot steal another cultures land and resources then proceed to limit integration between there society and the society of those they occupy and not expect consequences!

The whole case saddens me if not for the suffering then for the ignorance of history, if any people should realise that persecution is wrong it should be the Jews from there own long and torturous persecution at the hands of us Europeans, instead they build a wall around Palestinian lands, cut them off from water and agricultural land and also proceed to steal the best of the west bank and Gaza through settlements while demanding total capitulation.

It would be impossible for any middle eastern nation to actually destroy Israel if Israel were given the backing of the un and a resolution passed should they be attacked and the perceived loss of strength through the withdrawal of the us aid would force Israel to stop bullying its neighbours and actually pursue the peace process

Egypt + Israel both get a larger amount of Aid. In fact they get so much Aid that any study on global US aid trends has to exclude Israel and Egypt.
They get this large amount of Aid because they were both clever.
you see Egypt and Israel had decided to make peace (under land for peace), so together they say hey lets go to the US and act like we need a bribe for peace. and president Carter being pretty naive on foreign policy went for it and gave the two countries one of the largest aid packages ever.

How would that work?
Republicans : "Rightio, no responsiblity from us"
Dems : "Oh fuck, no idea how to handle this one"
*Leftie wing wants nothing to do with Israel, centrists and right wing members of the Dems demand that help be given to their allies and all that, party implodes*

Republicans : "Rightio, no responsiblity from us"
Dems : "Oh fuck, no idea how to handle this one"
*Leftie wing wants nothing to do with Israel, centrists and right wing members of the Dems demand that help be given to their allies and all that, party implodes*
More likely:
Republicans: "Hey, how about we change our foreign policy views in a way that is completely unexpected and unlikely."
Democrats: "Now we will get 100% of the Jewish vote instead of just 85%."
Americans: "Most of us don't understand foreign policy and will simply rationalize our party's new position."

I personally don't like the idea of there being a lobby for foreign interests, but don't necessarily fault the US for supporting us if they believe it gives them some advantage in some way. I won't object if they stop supporting us, as it's their choice.

By the way, and this won't affect my opinion, is AIPAC the only such lobby in the US, or are there others for different countries?

More likely:
Republicans: "Hey, how about we change our foreign policy views in a way that is completely unexpected and unlikely."
Democrats: "Now we will get 100% of the Jewish vote instead of just 85%."
Americans: "Most of us don't understand foreign policy and will simply rationalize our party's new position."

The democrats wish.

That plan would so go down like Yootopia says.

Hell, it would be worth it just to watch the contortions that left wing democrats tie themselves into even if it didn't work that well.

No, I don't believe in it. If there was one, it would do a better job of pressuring the media, which appears to be slightly pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli.

I would also recommend to the republicans to get involved in muslim outreach. Yanno. Start talking about palestinians being oppressed. Israel's apartheid and such.

That would really put the cat among the pigeons.

It would be hilarious.

Without the US (and European) money, the state of Israel wouldn't exist anymore.

I'm still wondering why Israel isn't located in South Germany or something. It were not the Palestine or the Arabs that were responsible for the holocaust. And don't start about holy & promised land.

There are only about 7,112,359 Jews in Israel and the occupied lands. So in a way, it's very smart of the Jews to be on top of the news since 50 years.

No, I don't believe in it. If there was one, it would do a better job of pressuring the media, which appears to be slightly pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli.

How popular are big oil companies and weapons contractors?

I don't know if they have a disproportionate influence on foreign policy, but I know they have one on financial policy. Israel has received more aid than all the other countries that received aid put together (or so I heard). It pays to lobby, it seems.

How popular are big oil companies and weapons contractors?

Big Oil manages to blow it's own foot off about once a decade (Exxon Valdez, unexplained cost hikes, etc.). Weapons contractors are no more liked/disliked than anyone else, from what I can see.

I don't know if they have a disproportionate influence on foreign policy, but I know they have one on financial policy. Israel has received more aid than all the other countries that received aid put together (or so I heard). It pays to lobby, it seems.

its Egypt and Israel that together receive aid worth more then every other country in the world. The reason being was Carter wasa gullible president and though he had to bribe both sides to get them to make a permanent peace, when in reality they had already agreed to the terms and when to camp David just seeing if they could milk it.


Though recently Egypt and Israel no longer receive more aid then everyone else combined (not cause we reduced aid). Just Bush's African Aid program is about twice what they receive together.

The democrats wish.

That plan would so go down like Yootopia says.

Hell, it would be worth it just to watch the contortions that left wing democrats tie themselves into even if it didn't work that well.

no really the groups in the democratic party that would like to cut Israel support are too firmly rooted in the democratic party on domestic issues.