NationStates Jolt Archive

For every Australian who, as a student, sat through the tedious and mind-numbing ritual of Religious Education at school, we can breath a sigh of relief for the next generation, who will now have the option of Humanist ethics, in place of Christian RE.

Students to be taught there isn't a God
07:57 AEST Sun Dec 14 2008

Victorian state primary school students will soon be able to take religious education classes which teach there is no evidence God exists.

The Humanist Society of Victoria has developed a curriculum for primary pupils that the state government accreditation body says it intends to approve, The Sunday Age newspaper reported.

Accredited volunteers will be able to teach their philosophy in the class time allotted for religious instruction, the newspaper said.

As with lessons delivered by faith groups, parents will be able to request that their children do not participate.

"Atheistical parents will be pleased to hear that humanistic courses of ethics will soon be available in some state schools," Victorian Humanist Society president Stephen Stuart said.

The society does not consider itself to be a religious organisation and believes ethics have "no necessary connection with religion".

Humanists believe people are responsible for their own destiny and reject the notion of a supernatural force or God.

© AAP 2008

You had religious education at a public school? We had no moral training whatsoever - worked out well enough, I think. :p Though we did have a 'moment of silence' for a while in the mornings, which could be seen as favoring religious belief.

You had religious education at a public school? We had no moral training whatsoever - worked out well enough, I think. :p Though we did have a 'moment of silence' for a while in the mornings, which could be seen as favoring religious belief.

I know in Britain there are (or at least were) public Catholic schools, which always struck me as weird, because A) they're public and B) the official Church of England is not Catholic.

You had religious education at a public school? We had no moral training whatsoever - worked out well enough, I think. :p Though we did have a 'moment of silence' for a while in the mornings, which could be seen as favoring religious belief.

Yup. They would pull you out of less important classes, like maths and English, to do mandatory religious education, unless you had a letter from your parents, in which case you couldn't do the class you were supposed to be, but you could sit in the library with nothing to do.

My university recently appointed a Humanist chaplain.

Which is nothing if not odd.

Seems like a good idea to me.

My university recently appointed a Humanist chaplain.

Which is nothing if not odd.

It's as though atheism is inexorably taking on a religious bent, as though we can't escape working within belief structures, even as applied to non-belief, I'd not be surprised to find there's a 10 commandments of atheism out there.

Ridiculous really, atheism shouldn't be a movement, it's just a nothing.

Please, Atheism, Christianity...what about Paganism? When will our belief get taught in school? :(

Please, Atheism, Christianity...what about Paganism? When will our belief get taught in school? :(

Why should any of it be taught in school?

Human ethics as a logical exercise I can support, anything based on rules ordained by the unknown however...

Religion should be taught as a specialist subject in history.

It's as though atheism is inexorably taking on a religious bent, as though we can't escape working within belief structures, even as applied to non-belief, I'd not be surprised to find there's a 10 commandments of atheism out there.
Well, a 10 commandments of humanism; at least, the quasi-religious humanism that pops up here and there. I wouldn't say that we all, as humans, can't escape working within belief structures, but it certainly appears that some folks are more attached than others.

Teaching that there is no god?


Douglas Adams would be proud.

Please, Atheism, Christianity...what about Paganism? When will our belief get taught in school? :(
'Taught' in what fashion?



Douglas Adams would be proud.
Would he now?

if you are going to waste precious education hours on religious education, humanism is as good way to waste it as any.

RE at my school was never about promoting any religion, although it was mandatory without parental permission but the only pupils who bothered with that were the Jehovah's Witnesses. We learned the basics of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism. The idea was to promote undertsanding of religions. We had a separate optional philosophy class for ethics and stuff like that.

Why should any of it be taught in school?

Human ethics as a logical exercise I can support, anything based on rules ordained by the unknown however...

Religion should be taught as a specialist subject in history.

I agree, Religion should be kept out of school, but since it isn't, why not include all religion?

'Taught' in what fashion?

That we're not devil worshipers, except for the Theistic Satanist.

Would he now?

He's my favorite athiest.

Shouldn't all forms of belief teaching be kept out of public teaching?

And then why was Humanist chosen as the alternative? Why not some other belief system? Or even any belief system?

So we will substitute one belief system for another, yep that's on the right track.

And this isn't for Australian school students only Victorian school students, which has this. I remember being in NSW and SA primary school systems and in the NSW system there was an opt-in program running and in SA nothing at all.

Shouldn't all forms of belief teaching be kept out of public teaching?

Prob'ly.

And then why was Humanist chosen as the alternative? Why not some other belief system? Or even any belief system?

Good question. Humanism isn't even an "alternative" to religion - not all humanists are secular humanists, and not all non-believers choose humanism. It seems like the term is being used as a catch-all for some nonspecific secular value system. Probably beats the "Religious Education" some have mentioned, but what it actually means isn't too clear, is it?

Good question. Humanism isn't even an "alternative" to religion - not all humanists are secular humanists, and not all non-believers choose humanism. It seems like the term is being used as a catch-all for some nonspecific secular value system. Probably beats the "Religious Education" some have mentioned, but what it actually means isn't too clear, is it?

Good point, and the people introducing this is the Victorian Humanist Society so it would only have those who belong to a particular stream (for lack of a better word) humanist, as you say a catch-all.

I wish they had some sort of Religious Studies course when I was in school in America, but that's just me. That said I believe that Religious Studies should be at least three year program. In Western nations it would be as follows:

RS101: Introduction to Religious Studies OR
RS102: The Abrahamic Tradition

RS201: Religions of India OR
RS202: Basic Asian Philosophy

RS301: New Age- Offshoots and Cults OR
RS302: Nontheist philosophies: Deism, Buddhism, Humanism, and Marxism OR
RS303: Faith and Politics: New Hopes; New Challenges OR
RS304: Special Interest Exploration

NB: These are NOT theology classes. These are Religious Studies courses where students study the religions of the world in an objective, comparative manner. They will study the teachings and practices of the faiths and try to show how these matters affect the religion's appearance to the outside world and its affects on policy. Students will learn the classifications used for the various faiths and the stigmas attached to them and how that influences society.

I wish they had some sort of Religious Studies course when I was in school in America, but that's just me. That said I believe that Religious Studies should be at least three year program. In Western nations it would be as follows:

RS101: Introduction to Religious Studies OR
RS102: The Abrahamic Tradition

RS201: Religions of India OR
RS202: Basic Asian Philosophy

RS301: New Age- Offshoots and Cults OR
RS302: Nontheist philosophies: Deism, Buddhism, Humanism, and Marxism OR
RS303: Faith and Politics: New Hopes; New Challenges OR
RS304: Special Interest Exploration

NB: These are NOT theology classes. These are Religious Studies courses where students study the religions of the world in an objective, comparative manner. They will study the teachings and practices of the faiths and try to show how these matters affect the religion's appearance to the outside world and its affects on policy. Students will learn the classifications used for the various faiths and the stigmas attached to them and how that influences society.

Can you replace "New Age-Offshoots and Cults with "Alternative Religion"?

Aren't all religions (and lack of) an alternative of each other, Wilgrove?

I have this strange and, apparently, revolutionary notion that ethical and religious (if any) education belongs in the home or Church (if any). The schools should teach things like reading, writing, math, history, critical thinking, science - those things that, while they may have an ethical context, can be taught with reasonable objectivity (not that this will ever happen, the human race is, it seems, immune to objectivity).

Not that I'm an expert or have dealt with a lot of humanists that I know of, but the stereotypical humanists seem like typical crackpots to me, or just selling snake oil. I don't think you can preach morality/ethics into people in any meaningful way. I'd call that brainwashing. If people don't decide on their own right from wrong, they probably never will or they would have decided "wrong" all along.

Aren't all religions (and lack of) an alternative of each other, Wilgrove?

Hmm, good point.

I know in Britain there are (or at least were) public Catholic schools, which always struck me as weird, because A) they're public and B) the official Church of England is not Catholic.
"Public" schools in England would be called "private" schools in the US. This may lead to some confusion ;)

"Public" schools in England would be called "private" schools in the US. This may lead to some confusion ;)

So what are Public School (US) called in England?

Not that I'm an expert or have dealt with a lot of humanists that I know of, but the stereotypical humanists seem like typical crackpots to me, or just selling snake oil. I don't think you can preach morality/ethics into people in any meaningful way. I'd call that brainwashing. If people don't decide on their own right from wrong, they probably never will or they would have decided "wrong" all along.

I'm a humanist. I think we should be nice to each other, because it's nice. Pretty crackpot, huh? :p

So what are Public School (US) called in England?
This is left as an exercise for the student, to test their Googlish skillset.

This is left as an exercise for the student, to test their Googlish skillset.

Google only gives me porn of schoolgirls....not that I'm complaining. :D

Google only gives me porn of schoolgirls....not that I'm complaining. :D

Great now we have gone and made Wilgrove horny. :tongue:

What was the exact term you googled Wilgrove? :p

I wish they had some sort of Religious Studies course when I was in school in America, but that's just me. That said I believe that Religious Studies should be at least three year program. In Western nations it would be as follows:

RS101: Introduction to Religious Studies OR
RS102: The Abrahamic Tradition

RS201: Religions of India OR
RS202: Basic Asian Philosophy

RS301: New Age- Offshoots and Cults OR
RS302: Nontheist philosophies: Deism, Buddhism, Humanism, and Marxism OR
RS303: Faith and Politics: New Hopes; New Challenges OR
RS304: Special Interest Exploration

NB: These are NOT theology classes. These are Religious Studies courses where students study the religions of the world in an objective, comparative manner. They will study the teachings and practices of the faiths and try to show how these matters affect the religion's appearance to the outside world and its affects on policy. Students will learn the classifications used for the various faiths and the stigmas attached to them and how that influences society.

Surely not during K-12. Those are all valid topics, but beyond teaching kids to be tolerant of others' beliefs, K-12 probably isn't the best time for an in-depth treatment of religious studies. Kids here learn about all of the major religions to some degree in world history in middle school and high school, but you're basically listing the requirements for a college-level religious studies minor.

Great now we have gone and made Wilgrove horny. :tongue:

What was the exact term you googled Wilgrove? :p

Umm...English schoolgirls?

Wilgrove, I guess you might have taken offense to my choice of terminology...first thing my sleep deprived mind could come up with. Indeed Alternative Religion sounds better. However, that said, part of that course would probably discuss why the public percieves alternative faiths as cults and delve into what exactly defines a cult, the stigmas attached to the word, and the nature of cults in general (2nd semester). Besides that there would be a discussion of how the New Age movement came about and its relationship to more traditional mainstream beliefs (1st semester). The phrasing was not intended to offend anyone.

Btw, how I would go about the school system is different from most people...that was a sample listing. It could be condensed, also it is not enough courses to count as minor, at least not where I'm attending. Note the order and the fact that I said western nations, so it would not be like I would jump into the intracacies of Dialectical Materialism with sixth graders then expect them to write a 13 page paper on the topic. The order is age appropriate for conservative, western culture. Also I was thinking more like HS. Bare minimum would be taking RS101 in your sr year of HS... sounds reasonable then.

Umm...English schoolgirls?

Be right back.

Be right back.

After googling that? :p

Umm...English schoolgirls?

I decided, based on this, to Google English schoolboys. What a disappointment.

After googling that? :p

Yes.

And don't you deny that you don't want to check it out either WMU. :wink:

I decided, based on this, to Google English schoolboys. What a disappointment.

Thanks for the warning. :D

Yes.

And don't you deny that you don't want to check it out either WMU. :wink:


In fact, I did check it out.

In fact, I did check it out.

As I knew you would. :)

14 year old boys are all the same world wide. Ahh who am I kidding all guys regardless of their age are all the same world wide.

As I knew you would. :)

14 year old boys are all the same world wide. Ahh who am I kidding all guys regardless of their age are all the same world wide.

I guess so. :)

When I was at school, English schools always used to have Religious Education classes and a religious service as part of assembly every morning. Originally the Victorians who created the school system made sure that there was no religion in schools - but later on there was pressure to make it a compulsory part of education. Strangely we were a much more religious country when schools were free from religion that we were when it was a compulsory part of schooling.

But Humanist ethics are even more mind numbingly boring and whimsical.

I don't have a problem with RE in general, as long as it doesn't focus on one religion the whole time. At my school we had terms spent on various different religions and a little on secular ethics, and I think this followed the national curriculum, though we did have hymns and prayers in assembly every morning as is expected in a state school.

And id anyone else find the word 'atheistical' rather convoluted?

He's my favorite athiest.
I seriously doubt he'd be "proud" that kids were explicitly "taught there was no God".



I agree, Religion should be kept out of school, but since it isn't, why not include all religion?
Because we should campaign for the former (in the sense that no particular belief-structure should be promoted), not the latter.

That we're not devil worshipers, except for the Theistic Satanist.
I don't see why anyone need be tyaught this, unless they are studying pagan religions in detail.

"Public" schools in England would be called "private" schools in the US. This may lead to some confusion ;)

But I believe these were public in the US sense, too. I know private schools are more common, but these were free and government-run.