NationStates Jolt Archive


Natural disasters, cities, and property rights

Callisdrun
11-12-2008, 17:53
In an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, the fact that the vast majority of the city's most earthquake-vulnerable buildings that are privately owned and have not been retrofitted was pointed out.

Also discussed was a possible mandatory program of retrofitting.

You can read the article here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/11/MNHF14LOBK.DTL), but mainly this brings up a question in my mind about preparing for natural disasters and property rights.

If there is an earthquake, it will be the city (and other governmental bodies) that provides the effort to rescue people, control the damage, etc. So then, since public money will be used for these efforts, does the city then have a right to force the owners of these highly quake-vulnerable buildings to take steps to mitigate damage? Or do the owners of the buildings have a right to be stingy and stupid? Many are not actual residents but landlords, so the people getting injured and killed in the unsafe buildings would often not be the owners themselves but tenants.

Since most cities are vulnerable to some form of natural disaster or another, there are analogies outside of Earthquake country. Does a city have the right to say to building owners "Look, you have to do this and this on your building, because if you don't and this natural disaster happens, which it eventually will, cleanup and recovery's going to be a much bigger pain in the ass," or do the property rights of the building owners trump the city's argument?

In this case, it's not only a perceived danger, either. There will be another big earthquake, maybe on the mighty San Andreas fault but more likely on the Hayward.

Oh, and before this turns into a debate about whether San Francisco should exist, or whether it's going to slide into the sea, that's not what this thread's about. First of all, most cities suffer some sort of natural disaster. A couple large earthquakes, one of which is really big, every century or so isn't all that terrible. Some places get hurricanes, others get tornadoes. Secondly, no, SF isn't going to slide into the sea. Plate tectonics don't work that way. It's not even a subduction fault, and even if it was, ocean crust subducts underneath continental crust.

Now that that's out of the way, your thoughts NSG?
Ifreann
11-12-2008, 17:59
Wouldn't a not-retrofitted building be a threat to other buildings near it?
Lunatic Goofballs
11-12-2008, 18:02
If the building were any other kind of safety hazard, it would be dealt with, wouldn't it? If it were structurally unsound, it would be condemned. If it were a fire hazard, it would fail fire inspection. If it were overrun by rodents, it would be shut down by health inspectors. If it were a crackhouse, it would get raided. If a secret cabal of mimes were building a doomsday device to steal the voices of all mankind, a squad of clown enforcers would assault them and wipe them out so as not to interfere with our own plans for world domination.

Why should earthquake safety in San Francisco of all places be any different?
Lackadaisical2
11-12-2008, 18:10
If the building were any other kind of safety hazard, it would be dealt with, wouldn't it? If it were structurally unsound, it would be condemned. If it were a fire hazard, it would fail fire inspection. If it were overrun by rodents, it would be shut down by health inspectors. If it were a crackhouse, it would get raided. If a secret cabal of mimes were building a doomsday device to steal the voices of all mankind, a squad of clown enforcers would assault them and wipe them out so as not to interfere with our own plans for world domination.

Why should earthquake safety in San Francisco of all places be any different?

I agree, if its really a problem, just make it a building code. More work for me...

It also seems to me that Cali could do some work on not letting people live where theres always fires, if only so I don't have to hear about it for a month straight.
Ifreann
11-12-2008, 18:17
If the building were any other kind of safety hazard, it would be dealt with, wouldn't it? If it were structurally unsound, it would be condemned. If it were a fire hazard, it would fail fire inspection. If it were overrun by rodents, it would be shut down by health inspectors. If it were a crackhouse, it would get raided. If a secret cabal of mimes were building a doomsday device to steal the voices of all mankind, a squad of clown enforcers would assault them and wipe them out so as not to interfere with our own plans for world domination.

Why should earthquake safety in San Francisco of all places be any different?

Sense. This makes it.








Oh no, he's making sense. This is always a bad sign.
Lunatic Goofballs
11-12-2008, 18:25
Sense. This makes it.








Oh no, he's making sense. This is always a bad sign.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/elf_of_doriath9/non-icon%20randomness/its_a_tarp.gif
Laerod
11-12-2008, 18:30
Oh no, he's making sense. This is always a bad sign.He almost always makes sense. He just delivers it in a manner that'll fool most people into thinking he's not serious.
South Lorenya
11-12-2008, 18:33
Keep in mind that some people are dirt-poor. What if Mr. Digoenes is one payment away from being homeless and the govenrment orders him to shell out cashg to reinforce his home?
Callisdrun
11-12-2008, 18:36
Keep in mind that some people are dirt-poor. What if Mr. Digoenes is one payment away from being homeless and the govenrment orders him to shell out cashg to reinforce his home?

Most of these are not owned by the occupants, but by landlords.

However, you make a valid point.
Lackadaisical2
11-12-2008, 19:45
Most of these are not owned by the occupants, but by landlords.

However, you make a valid point.

well the article says there would be 4 billion in damages to homes that they studied, about 2800, the cost to retrofit is 130,000 which together makes 364 million, quite a bit less than 4 billion, seems like a no-brainer to me. (of course retrofit will only reduce damages not eliminate them, and if there was a bad enough quake the 364 million would have been wasted) It still seems like a good idea if the damage is reduced even by a quarter. If there are insurance companies that do earthquake insurance, you'd think they'd simply require people to have this done. The savings on insurance would pay for the retrofit..